The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Major Bucs Question Marks With Sara Walsh, Plus Best-selling American History Author Nathaniel Philbrick

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

Russillo is joined by Sara Walsh of NFL Network and Fox Sports to discuss the Buccaneers' shutout loss to the Saints, the recent injuries to skill-position players Chris Godwin, Mike Evans, and Leonard Fournette, coach Bruce Arians's decision to bring back WR Antonio Brown, the rest of the Buccaneers' regular season, and more (0:30). Then Ryen talks with author Nathaniel Philbrick about his book 'Travels With George: In Search of Washington and His Legacy,' as they examine the U.S.'s first president and the commander in chief of the Continental Army. They also discuss Nathaniel's book, 'Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War' (20:57). Finally, Ryen answers some listener-submitted Life Advice questions (1:11:19) Host: Ryen Russillo Guests: Sara Walsh and Nathaniel Philbrick Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

two of my favorite people on this podcast nathaniel philbrick historian we're going to talk about his latest book and a bunch of his other books that i've read he is right there with anyone when it comes to american history and And Sarah Walsh, who's just as good on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And then life advice. Sarah Walsh, not only from the NFL and Fox, but NFL Network, and of course a very close friend,

joins us. We'll talk a little Tampa Bay Bucs. Maybe we'll get to some other stuff. I know you're immediately on the backdrop here. People have said this is what happens when you leave espn because they think this is the only bedroom so what do you mean why does it have to do with anything with leaving espn what do you mean because i've been a failure since uh that's not true they don't see the other, they don't see the room with the ocean view. By the

way, why don't you do it from there? We're in like a back, back underground bedroom here. We got ocean views and you're not using them. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I just, I didn't want to do that. And you know what I wanted? I wanted upstairs to be upstairs. I don't want, cause before I had a setup where whenever I came home, there was this mini studio in the corner. And I'm like, what am I a DJ? It's like, I just,

you know, you also have two TVs on the wall. So I don't think like the mini studios, like ruining the, like vibe, you already have two TVs on the wall, which I think isn't, it's not a great look.

Well, that's funny. Cause when I, when I sold one of the places, they were like, is he going to leave the TVs? And I went, yeah,

it's fine. I'll leave those TVs. The guy was like, awesome. And then I'd heard the... You wanted two TVs on the wall? He did. Yeah. I don't think the wife did.

Yeah. I was going to say he's single. That's the only way that gets left that way. This would be a good segment. Why do men... And then dot, dot, dot. But why would women reject two televisions just out of hand? What is it about women?

Aesthetically, it looks terrible. So go to any design page, right? Like go to any, um, any designer that people follow, right? Do you ever see two TVs on the wall? Aesthetically, like that looks terrible. By the way, if you want to do it in your basement, which I've been to the West Hartford basement, TVs everywhere, all over the wall. No problem with that. It's in the basement. It's hidden. We're talking main room. You walk in, you've got two TVs on the wall. No. I mean, that's just, no, no that says that says i'm single to me you know what it says to me is watching all these pays for the house the tvs are in yeah no i get that but you could also the bedroom you're in

you could put 15 tvs on the wall behind you no problem problem. I do have something. I bought a poster, though. I bought a poster for this back area here. What poster? I'll, maybe, at the end of the segment. By the way, by the way, this is coming off very negative.

I'm not, you do you, right? Like, the TVs make you happy. It's your house. Put the TVs everywhere. Like, I don't, that's fine. I'm just saying I,

yes, women don't want two TVs on the wall. Although, didn't one time you go, but I could watch a game and you could watch Housewives. Like, isn't that like the compromise? Yeah. No, I actually think it's brilliant. I think I'm ahead of everybody on this.

I think people are going to have two TVs. Back to the future, the last one, you know, he went in and had like nine different frames up. And that was the future watch of television. And by the way, we're already past that year now in real years. So I think I'm just early on this one. I don't feel like it's super negative. But when you said you do you, I don't know that there's anybody that does you more than me. So I don't think we have to worry about that.

Wait, can we share my favorite piece of art that you ever got? You and I, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, we were in Nordstrom's. I think it was from Nordstrom. And there was like the one Nordstrom in West Hartford. And there was that picture that it was like a piece of art. It was totally cheesy. The one that says, what I love best

about my home is who I share it with. And we made you get it and you hung it up in your house. I love it. It's my favorite. Do you have it with you? Is it gone? I think it's in storage it up in your house i love it it's my favorite it's my do you have it with you is it gone i think it's in storage at some point you can break it out i thought maybe the best part of that house yeah because it was it was sending the wrong vibe you know somebody somebody may come to hang and they'd be like wait what and i go now it's funny yeah like that's the joke um All right.

Maybe I'll show you the poster at the end of this. All right. Let's do a little box. Okay. So we knew this. We knew off the Super Bowl. They had two things working for them last year. They were the healthiest team in the NFL. And by a lot of metrics, they played the easiest schedule.

But then, look, you beat New Orleans. Finally, you can't beat the regular season. You win at Green Bay. And you beat the Chiefs 31-9. It's not like it was this fluky team. They had a ton of talent. Everybody's coming back. They're still a very good team, but you cover it firsthand.

You're down there. What's this week been like learning about Godwin, Fournette, and some of the other uncertainties health-wise? So there have been a lot of injuries this year, and I think the thought process when they re-signed everybody, when they re-signed every starter, okay, why wouldn't this team repeat? Well, you can't control injuries, right? If you take a Tom Brady out, now we've got a different team. And Tom clearly has not been an injury issue, but this team has been

riddled with injuries in a way that they never were a year ago. And they've been piling up, but they have so much talent on that roster. I feel like you've been able to plug holes. They've been able to get through it. I think some of that is, as you talked about easy schedule last year, they have an easy schedule this year. Even down the stretch right now, they've got the Panthers twice and the Jets now to finish off the season. But this week in particular has been the worst when it comes to the injuries. The defense is really talented.

Their secondary has been banged up all year. They've been without their corners. And I think the thought process all year was, okay, we lose a guy here. We can make do until they're thinking that they're going to get everybody back, right? For the post season. And they're on trend for that. But this last game against the saints, when you're talking God, when you're talking for net, you're talking Mike Evans, uh, that's, you can't just plug those holes.

Cause that's not one hole to plug. I mean, that is that at one point, I mean, it's literally the offense, right? Aside from Tom, it's Tom's all Tom's weapons. Gronk was out on the field, but then you take him out of it. So yeah, I think it's a, it's a really a challenge. I think it is more so than the rest of the year, a massive, massive issue that is going to be really, really difficult for this team. You cannot fire on the same cylinders when you don't have those cylinders out there working. And it's going to, it's going to be a problem now, how healthy they can get before this post-season starts. We don't know. Godwin was leading the team in receptions. He's

having a career year. I mean, it's a huge loss. You're going to get Antonio Brown back. And that's the thing about this team. They've always kind of, you know, it's been a give and take or this guy goes out and while they're getting this guy back and that's why they're so stacked with pro bowlers. But look, Antonio Brown can't make up for the absence of Fournette Evans and Godwin and and now there's I think some real issues there what was the vibe around the team like I mean I don't know if it's a New Orleans thing I'm sure the injuries because even Arians afterwards when they was asking about the games like look I'm more concerned I lost seven starters at some point tonight and I think some people maybe thought he was making excuses and I really didn't take it that way I

thought he was just telling us like look we have longer term issues than just a matchup in New Orleans it doesn't seem to go our way so what was it like around the team I think sort of stunned right I will say I don't think this team is a team that panics um and that comes from obviously the guy at the top I mean Brady's been in everything been down, uh, in a massive hole in a super bowl and he doesn't panic. So he's not going to panic over a regular season game when this team is clearly has its sights set on the post season, that is going to be a lock. And, but it's sort of, I don't, the word may be stupefying. Like they, and not only is it a problem against the saints, this has been sort of a problem for them in primetime games.

I mean, this was a Sunday night. It was funny, the week going into the Saints game, they're like, look, we got our butts whooped. They were talking about from a year ago what the Saints did on Sunday night football. And there was just no belief. It's funny, like there was no belief that there's no way that this team comes out

on Sunday night football against a team that they have stumbled again and again against in the regular season and does it again. And so, yeah, it's stunning. It's, it's insane. What Sean Payton has been able to game plan his team to do against a bucks team that at the time when that game started was healthier, had more talent on the roster, um, had, had less injuries in that aspect. I think when you go, um, you know, starters for starters on Sunday night. So I think it was just sort of like this, I don't know if sun silence is the word, but just like, just almost disbelief. Like how did this happen on Sunday night football again to this team?

And then, um, that sort of lost in the fact that like we have major losses that are now not coming back either in Chris Godwin, or we don't know when the other guys are coming back. So it's, it's sort of this, I think, stunned silence, but they're going to get back on track that they've got the Panthers. They are not a team that's going to go, Oh, we can't do it. Cause they're still going to look around and go, Hey, our roster is just as talented. The offense is going to have to figure some things out in terms of who they're going to put in, but the defense is talented. They didn't allow the Saints to score a touchdown. The defense is good. The Saints, they were just better on Sunday night.

But yeah, I think it punched holes in this theory of, you know, that they're going to just waltz into anything because they clearly are not. Antonio Brown coming back. I actually just appreciated Arians being like, hey, it makes us better. Like, I'm over it. I don't want to talk about it.

What was your reaction to his brutal brutal honesty which i actually find refreshing um i love his brutal honesty right as anybody in the media would do um so it's funny when you just said the thing about like you know i don't think bruce is making excuses like bruce just tells it like it is to the point that i think sometimes the pr guys are like hey we wish bruce wouldn't tell it like it is you know um he doesn't care care. So when the other day, when he's like, it was so funny, the question was asked, not by me, it was asked by Jenna Lane from ESPN about, you know, what do you say to people that are going to criticize this decision? Or what I, as soon as she said, what, what would you say about what people think?

I'm like, I knew what was coming out of his mouth, but like, all you had to say is like, what do you think about what others think of you? And Bruce is like, I don't give a shit. And like, I mean, that's his, that's how Bruce is like, you don't give a shit. And he'll tell you that. And, um, I appreciate, which I know you do too, like brutal honesty, like don't sugarcoat things. And, um, look, I think there's two ways you could look at that Antonio situation, right? You could look at it and go, okay, the tough decision is to stand up for what's right and cut this guy because you said you would cut him if he did anything wrong. And you said it.

So I'm going to stick to what I said, because I don't want to answer the questions like what I'm about to get. Or is it even tougher to be like, hey, I said it, I'm the one that's going to have to go up and answer the questions that I'm going against what I said. And like, that's what Bruce, I mean, that's not easy either. Right. And he clearly just said, uh, I think that decision was made before Chris Godwin went out, obviously, but we are not a better football team without him. I'm going to go up there and I'm going to have to take it and own it because I said that I would do something differently in a, at a previous time,

which was last year. And, uh, and that's not easy, but I will give Bruce the credit of, like, he doesn't care. Like, he just doesn't care. He's going to do what he thinks is right in that moment and what he thinks is right for the football team, and he's not really worried about answering questions to it. This might be stupid because I don't know exactly the full schedule here,

but, I mean, when you're asking Arians a question, is it a little different than when you're asking somebody else a question that you've been used to covering? Cause I know you, you know, you've been on the local beat before you got to ESPN and everything. Do you have like, okay,

I already know there's like this list of 10 questions and seven of them. I'm not going to ask him because I already know how he's going to handle it. Like, is he a different challenge in the way you'll ask him questions? No, he's awesome. But, but that's like, I love that though. Like, I love that he doesn't, he doesn't play the game. He doesn't do the PR thing. He says things he shouldn't. And like, I think we talked about it last year when he would criticize Tom and people were like, Oh my God, there's problems. And I'm like, no man, like Tom's not a robot. If Tom makes a bad throw, like he's not going to cover for him and be like, well, I think,

you know, maybe the read was maybe like this guy ran a bad route. Like, no, he's like, Tom made a bad throw. And I think anybody that you cover, um, and, and I didn't even like the thing about when he was saying, I don't, I don't, you know, give a shit. Like, I don't even mean that in a bad way. Like, I just knew that that's how he was going to answer it. But I, but what's the quote that got used by everyone. Right. It's like that quote, right? And, and he'll be, and he'll come out and flat out say like, teams can't run it against like, and he said it in more forceful ways than that. But as a media member, you love it. You love a guy that doesn't BS you, you love a guy that kind of gives it to you straight. I sort of personally

like enjoy Bruce to saltiness and he's, and he's not like, he's, he's like, he's awesome. He's awesome in person. He, um, I find his saltiness like endearing. Um, he was, you know, on that laundry list of, uh, I'm not sure how, if you're aware of this, but on that laundry list of the bucks that are hurt, like he's in, he's in rough shape right now, Bruce, like he gets golf carted out, um, like on and off the field, like at halftime, a golf cart comes out to take him off. He's got like an Achilles injury. He's beat up and like, he won't sit down for a second, but like, he's like, he's hurting. And, um, and I remember realizing like how bad a shape he was in two, was it two, three weeks ago, I was on the box game

for Fox. They were playing in Atlanta. So I was on the broadcast and I remember watching him walk out of the tunnel. I'm like, Bruce is barely able to walk. Then in the third quarter, he's losing his mind at a ref. Losing his mind. This coach that's barely 69 is barely able to walk at the moment. He is full fiery Bruce, and I love it. No, I don't think people kowtow how they ask stuff. You just kind of know him, i think people like love him for that

so the rest of the way they got carolina twice they got the jets so 10 point favorites even with all the limitations of the roster like because you know if you've watched cam it looks uh like it's over and donald hasn't been very good he hadn't played since uh i think november 7th and then there was talk that he and cam are going to split so like this feels like not only payback but a nice division game. The schedule's easy the rest of the way, but then you get into the playoffs. What do you think of this team right now?

How does it feel today versus where we were at a year ago where it wasn't a certainty by any stretch last year either, but they had an unbelievable run and pulled this thing off. How do you feel now a year later? Here's the thing. I think a year ago, it was like this light in a bottle feeling where it wasn't expected. And when something's not expected, everything is great. Right? Like, you know, like

they go to the conference championship game. What a win, right? Like that's an incredible story. If they don't win at all, it's, it's not a win for them. So I think just that clouds, like the expectations of like where they are. So do you feel, if you're asking, like, do I feel like as good about them as I did a year ago? No. Like I thought when they came back a year ago in Atlanta, down huge at halftime, Tom and company come out and spawn every, pretty much every possession, the second half. And they start rolling. I'm like, yeah, I can see this team rolling. I, I, I didn't know if they would beat the saints in new Orleans. Cause they struggle. I thought for sure, if they got there to green Bay, I'm like, they're going to win. Like, it was just this, like, moment in time

where you felt like they were going to do it. I think anybody that's ever, like, won a Super Bowl will tell you how hard it is to do it again. I think it's going to be really difficult for them. I think it's tough. I think teams, Washington has done it, where if they knock Tom around, he even talked about how he held onto the ball

too long in that game. Or no, I'm sorry, he didn't get rid of it long in that game um or no i'm sorry he didn't get rid of it he was getting rid of it too fast because he'd gotten hit right and that maybe there were times he should have held it longer um i know other teams the bills for example were like that was going to be our game plan against them the bills came back on them when and they shouldn't have given where the bucks were in that game um you've seen the saints sort of figure them out. And so, no, I think is, does the roster say that they have enough people on it that in three weeks time could be healthy and could they make a run? Yes. Is it, um, is it a given not even close. Right. And I don't think that that feeling right

now around here, it's just not a good feeling right now. I mean, there's, there's major losses this week. And I don't think we really know the extent of Fournette and Mike Evans and how and when they'll be able to come back in it and at what capacity. Right. So yeah, I think there's major question marks. And I don't think that there is this like, yeah, we're going to skate on through and it's going to look like last year. I think it's going to be far more challenging than it was a year ago at this time, even having the experience of being together longer. I know you're going to run to the facility. I just want to remind everybody to follow Sarah Walsh on Instagram,

Sarah Walsh 10. What is that? Your soccer number from college? Yeah. Soccer number is my number. Um, no, like since seventh grade, I've 10 my whole life. Every once in a while when someone took 10 it's like a big problem you know freshman year of college someone took 10 big problem for me so you still have it in there a little little braggy no what do you mean what do i have what in there that 10 is my number well you know like hey i played sports i don't is it bragging i didn't say i played well is it bragging to say I played sports?

I was asking. I wasn't confirmed. It's an open-ended. And you can see her awesome twins. The videos alone are worth a follow. But you love kids. I do. I like your kids.

I like kids. Everybody knows I like kids. Just not that much to buy a couple. Yeah, no. Actually, you're really good with kids. Kids love me. Yeah, they do love you. They like climbing on you.

Or mine do. Yeah. I mean, I would say of the two, I'm ranked higher with your daughter than your son. But I don't know. It's been a while. It has been a while. It has. Why are you down here this off season you're just very busy yeah I saw a jet ski conference down there that I was interested in

so like buying one just attending no it's just you just want to go guys just put on their hats and polos and talk about their jet skis and stuff and I was like that that's something Tuesday jet ski conference in Tampa that that would be like funny to go to like for entertainment purposes and be like really fully invested in jet ski conversations i'll go when i when i went to disney uh one of the six times by myself and i hosted the joe namath thing because i think greeny pulled out and like seven other people but you knew when espn was like is there any way you can fly like today to disney to host this thing with joe namath and apparently joe namath also was like on his way to disney to host this thing for espn radio and then his guy last minute was like hey joe doesn't want to come and they were like all right we'll double it like

okay see in a few hours like they knew the play like have it all mapped out have the whole thing set and then at the last minute say you're gonna pull out and then see what kind of money you can get it's called the snoop dog and so then i flew down and then it was i think the thing was the next day so they put me in the princess suite stop yeah at the year at the at the uh at the yacht you know whatever the they call, like whatever the piers are over by the water part. There's like a yacht section or whatever. So I go, all right, you know what? I'm going to go out for just a little bit just to see what it's like midweek. And I went to

not Jelly Roll, the dueling pianos. I went to this other club and it was all like people on a corporate retreat. And I think it was for Ski-Doo. Or Ski-Doo, I don't forget. And I think it was for SEDU or SEDU. I don't forget. And these people were fucking tanked because they were just like, right.

They were letting loose. Sean Paul was going and people like adults were just making out and it wasn't even midnight. It was hilarious. And, uh, I went back to my princess suite. So there you go.

Jet ski conference coming up. I know. I got to double check the do's here because there's sea dew. Is it both? Is ski dew the one that's in the snow? You know how there's snow? That would make sense.

It would make sense. Sea dew is the one in the water? Here's the deal both are accurate you're right about terrain um i think it was pretty self-explanatory so i feel a little out loud stupid right now but what i'm saying is i don't remember whose conference it was so if it's a person that doesn't like that i'm branding the company as some wild orgy at the at the disney yacht club you don't it could have been skidoo i forget who was who's what i just remember everybody was wearing their shirts and everybody

had all their company hats on and it was a free-for-all it was just like people you could tell like this is the one year you get away from everybody i can tell and uh there you go did you ask anyone to come back to your princess suite no i had like i don't even think i had a full course light and i was like, I'm out of here. I'm out of here. I was like, this isn't. And I had stuff to do. I had to interview Joe Namath the next day. I had to be hot. I had to be fresh. Alright, thank you, Sarah. See ya.

This is something I've been looking forward to for a long time. He's tough, tough to get. He's like the Tom Brady of authors. So, he is one of the great historians, I believe, of our time. It's Nathaniel Philbrick. He joins us from Nantucket. He has a new book out. It is Travels with George in Search of Washington and His Legacy. And it's a bit of a pivot for Philbrick because there's some first person in it as he's recapping this travel. George becoming president feels very informal. If you say the first president, call him George on a first name basis. But before we get started, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so blown away by your work. It's also fun to read, too, which I think is not always the easiest thing with some of the historical stuff. So thanks for joining us.

Oh, it's great to join you and to speak to a fellow Islander, even though you are a rival islander, a vineyarder. Oh my goodness. I know. Right. I look, I'll tell you, I have more fun on Nantucket. So as I've gotten older, I'm like, you know, the restaurants are a little bit better, but I would say landscape and visuals, the vineyard, the vineyard has Nantucket on that. Yeah. They're very different, but yeah, no, Yeah, no, they're very different, but, uh, yeah, no, we all love our homes, I guess. Um, so this is something, you know, you've been doing this over 20 years, I would say, and, you know, in the heart of the season, another one, you know, it goes back 20 years where people are probably very familiar with that, the book and, uh, the movie, but with this one, I guess let's kind of go from where you start this.

It's 1789 in,89 in George Washington's story. He's just become the first president of this nation. He's got to visit all the different parts of this union that not everybody's unioned up at this point. So kind of take us to the beginning and the origin of the importance of this trip that you actually reenact yourself with your wife and your dog. Yeah. Yeah.

We sort of did our John Steinbeck travels with Charlie imitation. And my wife, Melissa and I, and our dog Dora followed Washington's travels. And, you know, what I think a lot of people don't realize is how divided the country was from the very beginning. The constitution divided the country. There were the federalists who were all for it and for a strong national government. And then there were the Anti-Federalists who believed the state should retain the power that they had had under the original Articles of Confederation and distrusted this strong federal government. Two states, Rhode Island and North Carolina, hadn't even ratified the Constitution, hadn't even participated in his election.

And so Washington realized he had to do something to unite this country. And, you know, so it wasn't all that different from today. You know, we think we invented partisanship, but Washington was dealing with it from the very first. And so I felt like it would be really interesting in our times of division to try to figure out what Washington did at the very beginning of our history to pull us together. Yeah, it is always a great lesson with anything historical. And I've definitely picked up my own level of education on what happened. But every time you're reading stuff, you're like, man, nothing has changed. Nothing has changed.

reading stuff, you're like, man, nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. And in Washington, incredibly insightful in realizing, because it seems crazy to be like, hey, it'd be better if we just have one party and we're all going in the same direction here. That's kind of what he's saying. But as soon as the Federalists are established, which is what he was, you had the Anti-Federalists. So what was it like? How did he even get elected? Because that process itself is somewhat similar, but also different. For somebody that was such a war hero, he at least had the cachet to get the recognition to get people to support him. But you're right. As soon as he was saying anything about his vision for the country, there was massive opposition. Absolutely. And he was a war hero. Everyone loved George Washington

because without him, we would not be an independent country. And so he knew he was going to have a honeymoon period where he was the most famous guy in the world at that point. And so he used that popularity to try to create a legitimate federal government, which hadn't existed before. And he did it largely because of these travels, largely because of Alexander Hamilton's policies creating a tax structure that worked. Remember, these were 13 colonies that had rebelled against the strongest military power on earth over the issue of taxation. How was someone going to tax these people? So he realized he had a lot of challenges. And he also realized that those divisions were going to come back.

They were going to come roaring back as soon as people understood what he felt he had to do because he had suffered eight years during the revolution with a federal government that was incapable of working, incapable of taxing the people, incapable of doing anything. And so that had schooled him in the necessity of having a strong federal government. But it wasn't what everybody believed in. And by his second term, Congress was anti-federalist. And the divisions were as bad as anything we have today. And so not even George Washington could rise above partisanship, but we owe him an eternal debt for creating the basis of the nation we have now. kid and the joke was always that he was the father of our country because apparently he was just having sex with everybody the entire time that's actually not the case like there's a pretty good argument to be made that he was sterile correct and that he if if if there's anything to be taken

from this this rumor that happened for hundreds of years is that he was an incredible flirt that if he showed up to a social event he danced with everybody's women but he just loved the attention of being the center of attention. Not that he maybe was this, this scoundrel that he's made out to be in more common history. Well, it's interesting. There's absolutely no whiff of scandal with him. You know what, what there was, he fell in front when he was young, he fell in love with his best friend's wife. You know,. And so this guy was not without passion. But he loved the ladies, but there really is no evidence that he was doing anything behind Martha's back. By the end of our travels, it took us a year and a half to follow Washington. We were really sick of the, you know, Washington slept here.

He, he, he, he. I mean, the fact is he decided he had to stay in public taverns. These were the roadside motels of his day. You know, it was a good thing there wasn't TripAdvisor because in his diary, it's like food, terrible bed, even worse. I mean, it was not fun. He was doing this to create a country. He wasn't doing this, you know, to, to, um, you know, sleep around. Um, he was sleeping around, but it was, uh, you know,

in the name of this country. He also was, uh, by everything I've seen a shopaholic, he loved ordering items from overseas. And then just, if he had a credit card, he would have been maxing it out all the time because he was land rich. He was, he was money poor. He was always broke and he yet was always shopping. And I think he was always worried about his debts. Correct. Yes. Yeah. He, uh, yeah. Good thing credit cards hadn't been invented. Uh, you know, one of the reasons it could be argued, uh, he went, uh, with, uh, the rebels, uh, the revolution, was he owed so much money in England. And, you know, so, you know, that's, but so did most of the Virginia planters, including Jefferson and a lot of others. I mean, that was just how their lifestyle was. And,

you know, he was, you know, he was struggling financially, which is hard for us to recognize. Mount Vernon was losing money every year. Martha came in with quite a bit of money. They spent a lot of it initially. And he was able to accumulate a lot of land in the West, largely because of his service during the French and Indian War, but he was barely keeping it above water financially and desperate to sell whatever land he could out West. And, you know, so this is another side of Washington that I think a lot of us don't realize that he, you know, he was, he tried to have the air of the country squire,

but the reality was he was struggling. And when it comes to the topic of slavery, part of what I've read, again, I know Lafayette's a central figure to him, almost a lesser version of Hamilton in a way. But it was really refreshing to read something about Lafayette, who initially is like, this is awful, what you're doing here. And Washington would listen and he would think about pivoting. But really, it felt like Washington was constantly just thinking about his value. So any moment where Washington was thinking of abolishing slavery at this time, some people argued at an address in New York in 1789 that he should have abolished it right then and there.

But there was no way that he was going to do it because, as you point out in the book, he wasn't going to immediately call out the South and feel like he wasn't going to be able to put this nation together after they just got done with this revolutionary war. So I don't think it's all that altruistic when he debated. I think it was very much financially motivated. But as you point out, too, histories, we judge history differently than we ever have. How do you judge it now?

How do you handle this part of the story? Yeah, well, you know, and the slavery issue was one I really felt had to be front and center in this book. And one of the things I hope readers get away is how far Washington traveled. Remember, this is a guy in terms of around the country, but also as a human being. This was a guy who became a slave owner at 11 when his father died and inherited some enslaved workers. And by the time the revolution was over, he was completely questioning where he had come from on slavery. Lafayette, whom you mentioned, would later be quoted saying, if I had known I was helping to create a land of slavery, I would have never lifted my sword in the cause of America. And he was probably Washington's best friend and would remain so for

all of Washington's life. But Washington didn't free his enslaved workers until after his death. But he was the only slave-holding founding father to do that. And so, Washington is a paradox, like all human beings. He was able to question the assumptions of his childhood, but the fact that he didn't completely free himself from those, I don't think negates the fact of what the good he did do. He created the union, the same concept that led Abraham Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. And so, you know, it's a big part of Washington's legacy. And there's, you know, every time you think, oh, yeah, he's doing something good here. He's, you know, going for his own bottom line when it comes to his enslaved workers or Martha's,

whom he didn't own. And so it's very complex. But the one thing I will say is Washington was tortured by it. It really bothered him. And I think if you're going to look at the beginnings of our country, Washington in that tortured relationship to the issue of slavery embodies so much of the legacy we're dealing with today. On the military side, I can't help but laugh. And I know you were born in Boston and me spending a good chunk of my life in Massachusetts. You know, the idea of the mass hole, right? And in the 1700s, it was as strong as ever like i don't know if it was you or someone else who wrote it i remember the virginia militia showing up to boston

common and they had like fancy linen blouses and polished brass rifles and immaculate horses and the boston guys weren't really boston they were people from like outside lexington and the hills and philorica yeah right yeah philrica and and like basically the boston guys start fighting with the virginia guys because they're calling them fancy and everybody is consistently including washington once he comes up to be like what is up with these guys and so to give the listener a little bit more history here artemis ward who was one of the generals who was at the Battle of Bunker Hill and wanted him to reinforce Dorchester Heights while the British were occupying what was Boston.

And if people don't understand this geographically, Boston was essentially an island with a thin, thin line of land to get you in and out. It's all been backfilled, obviously. I think Putnam and Prescott were two other generals. So you have this group of Boston generals that all now have to report to Washington, who's essentially a foreigner by not being from Massachusetts. I laugh every time when I see some sort of historical anecdote where it basically was like,

yeah, Washington couldn't understand any of the mass people and all the mass people basically hated him too. So add more depth to that because that is a common theme every time I've read about it. All right. The first time he arrives, he's, he, he can't, he, the, the militiamen, the, the, you know, the, the provincial army of New Englanders, he's appalled. He calls them a stupid, dirty people. That's a quote. And, um, and that, that comment would be leaked to the press. and that comment would be leaked to the press. And so, Artemis Ford did not take that well, nor did a lot of New Englanders. And so, it did not start well. And as that scene where the Boston guys are duking it out with those fancy Virginians, Washington literally wades. Remember, Washington was a big dude. He was six foot,

four inches, um, which is, was really tall in the late 18th century. And he wades into the middle of this fight and grabs the two central characters by their, the scruff of their necks and says, you know, stop it. And, and so he physically impressed the new Englanders. That's just to interrupt though, that, that is a very real, like he wasn't just big for those times. It's pretty clear. Like if we're talking about a guy who could handle himself physically, that's a big part of his success because it almost feels like everyone was in awe of his strength and his stature. Correct? Yeah.

Right. If he if I think if he had been born today, he would have been a professional athlete. There's all sorts of accounts of he could throw things farther than anyone. I mean, really, you know, there's an account during the revolution where he's he and his officers have a competition where they're throwing this big rock. And he was 15, 20, maybe even 30 years older than most of his officers. And he threw it well beyond anything they could do. And he didn't even try. He just was physically really impressive. And he used that as not only as general, but as president. He would walk into a room and people would literally gasp. It was just, he had that charismatic presence. Henry Knox, who was a Boston guy, who was his head of the

artillery, remarked where at one point in New York, a young British officer was trying to deliver a message to Washington that Washington refused to take. But the young officer was ushered in and Knox said, the general seemed to be something supernatural to this young officer. He was just so overcome with it, you know, his presence. And so this was, you know, it was his superpower. He could use that in a way to impress people on both sides of the political fence. It was very useful for him when France came into the war and he was dealing with an alliance. And so, you know, there's one guy, Benjamin Rush, who was not a fan of Washington's necessarily, but said, if you see him, you know that this man is a general. There's just no one who looks more impressive than George Washington.

Let's go to the Bunker Hill battle. By the way, did you and Ben Affleck, where are we at with this movie? I'm afraid it died on the vine. A really good screenplay was written, but it hasn't happened. screenplay was written and, um, but it, it hasn't happened. Um, and, and so, um, it's, it's too bad because I think, um, you know, it could, uh, you know, just about all my books have been optioned. Uh, one was actually a movie. Um, usually Mayflower has been optioned, I think three or four times and, you know, everybody gets excited and then, you know, nothing happens. 99% of option books never see the screen. So you have to do it.

But Valiant Ambition, the one about Benedict Arnold, is now looking promising. We'll see. Yeah, that is welcome to Hollywood. Get close, get disappointed, start over. Yep. Everybody loves you until something else comes along. The reason I love the Bunker Hill book, and for people that understand it's this, basically, it's kind of the first battle of announcing,

like, wait, a wake-up call, I would think, to the British. Again, this is your expertise. You wrote the book. Jump in, correct me anytime I am off track here. But Washington is not a part of this battle. And what I always loved about this story is that somebody like Joseph Warren, who's incredibly popular, very educated, is a leader at this time in 1775. And even though the, I would say at this point, the rebels, the merry, however you would phrase it, lose this position. The British, it was the kind of win where you're like, that wasn't even worth it because of the losses. This is a wake up call, like these people coming in from the hills and all these militias all over New England, like this is a major problem. And Joseph Warren, who, if you want to give more backstory, jump in. But he wasn't even, they didn't even want him to fight. And he felt like, no, no, I absolutely have to fight. And he's, and we lose him in this battle. Right. And Warren, uh, a loyalist would later say if Joseph Warren had not died in the battle

of bunker Hill, George Washington would have been a non entity, uh, which is just shows you how impressive Joseph Warren. This was a guy who was a widower with four kids under the age of 10, I think it is. And he was a doctor, one of the foremost doctors in Boston, charismatic, a great writer, a wonderful orator. He delivered a speech in the midst of all of this revolutionary turmoil in a toga, in imitation of the Greeks and Romans. And he was very, you know, he was the man, really. He was the one who ordered Paul Revere to head out. And, you know, he really was the guy happening. And he was also a major general who felt, you know, he needed to be out there in the Battle of Bunker Hill. And he went out there very late in the battle when the British charged three times horrible losses,

close to 50% casualties, and they overran, ran this little mud fort on the top of Breed's Hill, not Bunker Hill. And it was, you know, blood was literally ankle deep in there. Warren was there, made his escape, but was eventually tracked down and killed. And Washington, and it was a loss, but it taught the British that these guys can fight and that this is not, you know, we're not just going to intimidate them with a bayonet charge. We are in a war. This is not just a skirmish. And, you know, the great irony is Washington doesn't show up until two weeks later after all this and Joseph Warren is dead. And, you know, the New Englanders aren't particularly excited to have this Virginian here. And yet, Washington, who I came to recognize, he didn't win the American Revolution. He survived it. And

I don't think there would be any other leader in the American military at that time who could have done it. And without Washington washington you know the country it would have just everything would have fallen apart he just hung in there uh that's a great way to say because as i've gone through all the battles um you know if he were you know people can look at lebron james right and say yeah but look how many nba finals he's lost and go you know if you looked at george washington you by the battle, he probably have an under 500 record. Oh, yeah. Way under 500.

So, I mean, Brandywine, like what was it about him getting people, whether it was, you know, deserters being afraid of being shot at the side of the road to rotten snowy woods. But every time you think there's no way this this army can ride this out, guys are eating their own moccasins, boiling them. They're eating dead cows on the side of the road. There was a guy that was in their group. I remember one battle where they said, screw it, and they just went after some farmer's chickens, and then they killed the soldiers for even doing that. The fact that Washington can put this together, as you said, survive it, not win it, with some help from the French, let's not kid ourselves. That part of it is what I can't, maybe what led him to even having the vision to be a president that could see the future before it happened. Right. Well, Washington was by nature very aggressive.

He wanted desperately to have that one battle that he could win it all. But he realized that if he kept trying that, which he wanted to do that he could win it all. But he realized that if he kept trying that, which he wanted to do, he'd lose it all. And so he had to go against his natural inclinations and play rope-a-dope to not risk it all, just to hang in there. And, you know, for a military guy, this was very frustrating. You know, you don't go in there and, in there and go at it hammer and tongs. You hold back and you just hang in there. And that's how we won. Because when he would go against the British, for example, at Brandywine, he would inevitably be out-generaled by the opposition. He was not a great strategic thinker and not a great tactician, but what he

was was a great politician. And that's really the skill that enabled him to survive those eight years because no one else could have handled the Continental Congress that was very weak, unable to do anything. And yet second guess, they were fearful that the military would take them over, you know, another coup. That's how all other revolutions had gone in the past. But Washington was one of those people who realized that everything would be for nothing if that happened. and temptations. The patience of the man is remarkable and ultimately was triumphant, not because he was a great battlefield general, but because he was someone who understood the priorities that a new revolution-created country needed to have. And it's pretty remarkable. You've written about this extensively too, but I almost feel like i have to ask you about the the naval side of this the shipping side and that the french helped only to prevent britain for having another country um right but that's pretty much it right their motivations

were clear their lack of respect for any military leadership on the American side is actually funny to read about. Without it, it doesn't happen. We might all have accents today. You don't know. But what's your favorite story of unlocking the French assistance against the British, certainly when it came to battle at sea and the lack of communication between... You know, you had a Northern general and then Washington, like it was just every time they thought they would have help, they'd be like, yeah, we'll get there when we get there, but we're not going to do anything you want us to do. Yeah. They, they basically ignored Washington. Washington, you know, said, guys, what we need is the French Navy. If the French Navy will eliminate the, because Britain had the strongest Navy in the world,

but if the French Navy would focus on North America, help him out, that would give his army along with the French, the chance to get the victory that might actually win this war. But the French had their own agenda. Remember the money in the world, most of the money in the world was made in the Caribbean islands with the sugar plantations. And so their Navy spent a lot of the time down there, and Washington couldn't get them up here. And so they basically ignored him.

And he spent three years intensely frustrated. He desperately wanted them to come to New York. They said, nah, we're going to the Chesapeake. Washington was furious, but he said, okay, what am I going to do? I guess I'll march from New York to Yorktown, 500 miles. They marched the whole way down, but they have to go like inland for stretches of it as well, right? So go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, absolutely. And you remember those New Englanders who didn't take kindly to him six years before? The swamps of Virginia were a killing ground, but Washington is able to say, look, we've got to do this. We're going to do it. They did it. They arrived, and they won the war with it because the French Navy finally arrived, took out the British. Finally arrived, took out the British. Cornwallis doesn't move from Yorktown.

Bang, it happens. It was a miracle. Those of us who think it was fated that the American militia would throw off the chains of British tyranny and it was God ordained, baloney. The only reason we are an independent country is that the French Navy defeated the British in the Battle of the Chesapeake and made possible the victory at Yorktown, a naval battle in which no Americans participated. And Washington was aware of this. You know, he took pride in the ultimate result, but he couldn't necessarily take credit because so much else had to happen for this miracle of a victory to have to occur. Can you get into a little more depth on the Cornwallis error and everything that led to it after the fact? Because I mean, the British were

like, wait, what is happening? Like how, what happened? We lost to the French at sea. What happened? Well, it was, you know, this had never happened in the history of the world. That's an exaggeration. But the British Navy was the preeminent Navy in the world. But the French who had been humiliated during the French and Indian War, otherwise known as the Seven Years War, had embarked on a program called revanche, revenge. And so they had dedicated all of, as many of their facilities as possible to retooling their navy.

And so it was a new navy. And yet, you know, the French were French. They baked their bread and served wine to their soldiers. Very interesting. While it was rum for the British and especially Cornwallis, who felt that this was inconceivable. I am going to get out of here one way or not, but it didn't happen. Okay. So this is good then. Let's take us now back to the book, Travels with George, and you've got a country that's broke, a country that doesn't want to pay the tab for this war. They owe other nations all this money. And as you said at the beginning, like you can understand this independence and no taxation, all this stuff. It's like, okay, but somebody has to

pay for this. There's soldiers that were owed money, right? I mean, they kept being promised and it's going on and on and on. How did Washington get this even started in the revolution, not because of their army, but because of their financial system, you know, their ability to, you know, they had a national bank, by loaning money, they could, you know, they could do things that no other country could financially. And so Hamilton decided to use the British model to create a national bank, Hamilton decided to use the British model to create a national bank to pull together all the states' different debts and make that a national debt. And many states, such as Virginia, that had pretty much paid off their wartime loans, thought this was a bad idea. But ultimately, it was the only way the country was going to emerge from the huge financial hole it had been in because of the revolution. And so Washington, you know, it's controversial.

Initially, Thomas Jefferson, who was not a fan of Hamilton's, is critical in the compromise that ultimately allows it to go forward, but he would ultimately regret that he had done it. But once those were in place, there was the economic engine to make this country viable. If, you know, Hamilton's, there would, people like Jackson later on would, you know, try to get rid of the bank, as would others. But the financial system Hamilton creates is the bedrock, really, of where we are now as a country. And even though Jefferson, who even as he was Washington's Secretary of State, began to organize the political resistance, turning the anti-federalists into what would become the Republicans. And so political divisions were happening within Washington's cabinet because what he

was doing was very controversial. But without it, things just wouldn't have gotten started in the beginning of our country's history. The part that is very repetitive when you read about any of this stuff, you know, like, OK, this is the big, big controversy of that year and trying to put together this country is that it's almost like, hey, thanks for winning the war. Thanks for getting us clear of this whole thing. Now we want to go do our whole thing. And that Washington still knew, no, no, no, no, no. We did this for a purpose.

We did this to create a nation. We didn't do this to now have you all do whatever you want because it doesn't make any sense. Do you think there's a moment during his time that you were able to connect to him having that kind of vision? Yeah. Well, you know, I think it happened even before he became president. I think the key moment in Washington's personal history and the history of this country was at the end of the revolution when Washington makes the decision that the British have evacuated, we've won. And yet the country is in chaos, 13 independent states that don't have a clue how they're going to ever work together. Washington decides, the time is right for me to resign my military commission. And now this had never happened before. At the end of a revolution, the military would

just hand over ultimate power to the civil authorities. When King George heard that this was Washington's plan, he was quoted as saying, if he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world. And that's what Washington would do in Annapolis, where the Continental Congress was huddled around because they couldn't be in Philadelphia because they were fearful their own military were going to attack them. They had fled to Annapolis. Washington goes there and surrenders his military commission. For me, that's it. That's when that lays the groundwork for everything to come, whether it's the Constitution, the concept of a union. By surrendering ultimate power at that key point, Washington made the United States of America a possibility.

Washington made the United States of America a possibility. John Adams was the vice president. And correct me here, the process was just, hey, you're the president. You didn't have a running mate. And then here's the next guy. And you have an unbelievable little anecdote, which I think fans of the TV show Veep would appreciate, is that Adams is like, I don't want to go on this awful road trip with Washington. I want to do this because he invites him.

And I'll interrupt myself here again. These guys from back in these days, they would have been amazing talk show hosts because the hyperbole that I'm accused of when I'm talking about athletes or teams or any of us in this industry, and I'll watch my friends that are on TV, I'm like, Hey,

calm down a little bit. These guys would cancel a lunch and you would have thought it was annexing a nation. You know, it is, it is the greatest regret of my life to not have been in Shrewsbury for the date upon which, you know, and you're just like,

all you did was say no to lunch, man. Like this is unbelievable. The language that you you uncover uh the way these guys spoke to each other is so poetic and it actually you know makes sense if you think about the times that carry over in the british background of it all but adams basically by saying no i'm good i don't want to do this i don't want to go on this this trip is awful the hospitality is terrible i'm good um that you kind of plant the seed that maybe that led to the vice president's position being one of the most useless in all of politics.

Which, yes, I think, you know, John Adams was a very different person from Washington. He really did not enjoy public occasions pressing the flesh. You know, he didn't you know, he just couldn't stand it. you know, he didn't, you know, he just couldn't stand it. And when he would become president, he would either be in the White House or back home in Braintree, where he spent actually as much of the presidency as anywhere. He just didn't enjoy other people. And so Washington says, I'm going on a tour of New England. You're the vice president. you're from New England, why don't you come with me? And he said, nah, that's all right, you know, go ahead. And then, surprise, surprise, Washington, after that, has very little need to consult John Adams. And as John Adams would lament in a few years' time, he said, the vice presidency is the most insignificant

political office ever created by man. And, well, dude, you did it to yourself. You go, you might not enjoy yourself, but get in the carriage and have a few, you know, rubber chicken dinners with George Washington, you presidents have changed a little bit recently, but up until then, look at Harry Truman, completely ignored under FDR. I think Washington created many precedents, and thanks to John Adams' unwillingness to go on a carriage ride created the insignificancy of the vice presidency. This was a departure for what you normally do, the first person part of it that I mentioned. And this is a grind for you, too. I felt for you when you got sick in New York at the train station and people were wondering, is it getting to them?

But, you know, this is your passion. This is something you love. And to see these spots, is there a moment that you take from this journey that stands out more than all the others? Yeah. It's hard to say. It was so much fun. My wife, Melissa, and I look back with great nostalgia. it. It was hard work. I mean, you know, a lot of, I reached out to all the libraries and historical societies in each town. Washington visited more, you know, more than almost 200 of those. And then we, you know, talked to people, interviewed people all the way around. I got really sick at one point and, you know, had ended up in the hospital. We almost died in a tornado

while sailing off the coast of your island, Martha's Vineyard. Things happened. But I have to say the moment that sort of brought it home to me when it came to George Washington, because there were these times where you just felt like you were standing

in a historical vortex. And we went to Hampton Plantation in South Carolina. We were on our way to Charleston. This is a magnificent plantation that is now owned by the state. And right in front of this Greek temple of a porch is this live oak, this huge tree. And according to tradition that has been verified, that porch had been built just before Washington's arrival on his southern tour. And the owner of the plantation, a widowed woman, says to Washington as he comes up the steps, you know, thank you for coming here.

You know, with this new porch, I think I'm going to have to get rid of this big tree. And Washington looks at the tree. And remember, according to Parson Weems, Washington was the one who chopped down his father's cherry tree. In this instance, Washington looks at this tree and says, ma'am, you know, there is a tree as beautiful as that no man can replicate, keep it. It's there to this day, this monster live oak right next to the, you know, the porch. This is, you know, yes, there's the Washington Monument, but I would say this live oak, you know, next to a porch and a plantation in South Carolina is a living monument to George Washington's trips across this country. And it was just amazing to see it. Okay. Travels with George, Nathaniel Philbrook.

I have to ask you a quick little Mayflower thing. I mean, I can do this again for an hour. I mean, I'm not even going to get to my, my other stuff here. I wrote out all these notes. I go, Hey, this guy's got a life. You can't, you can't make them sit in front of a computer all day today. Um, this is no, I'm enjoying this too. So, okay. I may have to do another, a Mayflower with one separately, but I can you, cause I didn't learn this one in school and your intro into that book is, is just brilliant. The execution of it all. It's like amazing storytelling. And that's why I've always enjoyed your stuff so much. Um, give us a sense of the boat, the boat itself, just trying to figure out when it's going to anchor and how long

that went on and the, the tragedy of trying to find the best entry point into the new world in 1620. Yeah, it was a hell ship. There were 102 passengers on the Mayflower. It was the worst passage you could have. She averaged between one and two miles an hour making her way across the Atlantic. And they were supposed to go to New York. That was their intended destination. But instead of coming up on Manhattan, they came up on Cape Cod. Just think that the Pilgrims could have been Yankee fans. And so they're way off course. The captain says, okay, we better head south. He heads into Pollock Rip, which is still today one of the most dangerous pieces of shoal water on the planet, literally, and almost lose the ship.

Everyone is absolutely terrified because the tide changed. They somehow get out of there. Captain says, uh-uh, I'm getting you guys off this ship. You're going to have to, somewhere on Cape Cod, that's where I'm going to leave you. They go berserk because they don't have permission from the crown to go there. Not everyone was on the same page with the pilgrims. About half of them were what the pilgrims called strangers who did not believe in kind of the radical Puritan beliefs they had. They hear this, we're going to go, we're going to leave you guys. And if they did that, they'd all die because they weren't working cooperatively. So they come up with the Mayflower

Compact. I think one of the most important political documents ever created, where they say civil government is going to rule us. It's not going to be a cult. It's going to be two different peoples working cooperatively. They get to the Cape. They need to have, if they're going to establish a beachhead somewhere, it needs to be near a navigable river. But there are no navigable rivers on the Cape.

But they don't have any legitimate maps of the Cape. They waste a month wandering the sands of Cape Cod in the late fall, early winter, angering the Native Americans, which is going to come back to haunt them. Finally, they find what they will call Plymouth Harbor, where one of the great advantages of it was that there were no trees. It had been cleared for agriculture because two years before, a terrible plague had hit the native peoples. There used to be 2,000 people, Wampanoags, living at Plymouth. But this terrible disease had wiped out everyone. Bones littering the ground. Those that had survived had fled.

And so this is where the pilgrims decide we are going to plant a new plantation. And, you know, it's winter. It's the worst of times. Half of them would die that first winter. Didn't you say that by the time they anchored, how long was it from we're not going to New York to, okay, get off the ship? How long was that time period? Wasn't that months? And we almost die off Cape Cod. And then it was, you need to get off the ship. And they say, well, first we need to find a place.

And so that's a month, basically. So think about that. You think you finally reach the new world, and actually you're going to be on a boat for another month as we argue about where to go. Right. And there would be a search party looking for a place in a little open boat called a shalom. And the spray from the ocean would freeze on them. It was that cold. It was just miserable conditions.

Finally, they find Plymouth Plantation. The Mayflower sails from what's now Provincetown to Plymouth Harbor. They offload everybody and build by, I think it was Christmas day, they'd start building their first structure. And then over the course of the next two months, close to half of them would die of disease. And somehow they would make it to spring. And if the Wampanoags had decided to wipe them out, they easily could have. But Massasoit, the native leader, his people had been ravaged by disease. The rival Narragansetts had not been touched. He was fearful of, they were going to be taken over by the

Narragansetts unless an alliance with this pitiful group of Englishmen might give him the parity he needed. And so thus was born the alliance that would save Plymouth Colony and, you know, set the stage for, you know, what would transpire for the next couple of hundred years yeah because that i thought was one of the most interesting things about mayflower is that you go through it and you're like hey look what happened horrible you wiped out you basically erased people from their country but then you're like wait part of the alliance was in fear of the other warring tribes being like yeah but they're trying to do the same thing to us and so you were like oh wait like there's like at times there's this this image of this harmonious world and you were like no

it was a warring world as well it's just you brought in new people with disease and clearly a dehumanizing approach to the native people that was was something that they weren't weren't you know dealing with as far as their own culture. Last thought, because this is the last thought because I loved it. So they're at Plymouth. It's the worst.

They've been there a while. I forget how many years, if it was a couple years or less than two years, some guys decided to start like walking north and they reach Boston. they go, oh, this is way better. The harbor is perfect. There's this massive river. We could bring in all sorts of infrastructure. And it was just like, you know, what are you supposed to do? It's 1620. You're

supposed to like, Hey, let's find a better spot after everything they went through. And the way you describe almost a general disappointment where they come back to the setup and they're like, hey, there's a spot that's not that far from here. That's like a hundred times better than where we're starting this nation. Do you guys want to go there instead? And just there was a division that and other people were like, you know what? it's way better up there. And that's why Plymouth isn't Boston. Yeah. Is that fair? Oh, that's fair. And, you know, of course, 10 years later, the Puritans would arrive with John Winthrop, create the city on the hill known as Boston and, you know, quickly take over New England.

And Plymouth would become this little sort of sideshow. And because, hey, location, location. But I think to this day, I find it's a very different... People on the North Shore of Boston are very different from people on the South Shore. And I tell you, it goes way back. You know, it was the class A pilgrims versus the, you know, the lockjaw Puritans. And, you know, I think it's that kind of difference was there from the beginning. And so that's what I find fascinating about history. You know, we're all, you know, we grow up under the illusion that we're sort of, you know, this is the reality of life where we're living. But things happen way before us

that set humanity on a path that we are just participants in. The sense that we have some control of our destiny, I think, is an illusion. And the one thing history has taught me is, I can't say you honestly, you learn from the past, but it doesn't help you in the present because the present will always be impossible. You're making it up as you go along. You're conflicted between self-interest and altruism. In 100 years, they're going to laugh at us and say, or say, what the hell were they thinking? Just as we look back on the pilgrims and George Washington and say, what the hell were they thinking? It's really hard living life. And the example of the past, I think, can only teach us humility because no one had it figured out. And we're all just making it up.

No, it's beautifully said. I don't think I'm going to say anything beyond that because every time I go back and I read one of your books, I'll read somebody else's and I'll enter this world for 400 pages. And you go, this isn't that different from the stuff we're arguing about now. We have technology, we have these advancements, we have medicine, we have all these things, but like the mindset, the North shore, South shore thing is so real today. And then the Rita Mayflower, you're like, oh, okay, this is exactly how it started. And it's, you flower, you're like, oh, okay, this is exactly how it started. And it's, you know, I mean, it's, we've been around a long time, but not so long that we're talking about that many generations removed. If you're, if you really start thinking

about the math of it, how many generations it would be from the place, the first places in this country and where they're set up. And I always thought it was funny too, because, you know, as a kid, you're like, how come Boston wasn't the Capitol? Like how come New York became New York? Well, New York became New York? Well, New York became New York geographically. It made more sense. But then Philadelphia has this run. And whenever it would be like, oh, people were afraid if you made the capital in Boston

and gave Massachusetts more power than it already had historically, that there was a fear that the Massachusetts people would just be like, you know what? Fuck this. Anyway, we're just going to do our own thing. Yeah, like those guys. Yeah, well, you know, they had been, you know, the so-called Indian fighters from the beginning and created the local militia of New England was completely different from Pennsylvania, for example, that really didn't have a local militia. You know, so you have all of these cultural differences that, you know, the states are, you know, we are all part of this one country, but differences persist. And, you know, and it's those differences and commonalities that fascinate me.

Couldn't tell you any more than I already have to express my gratitude for your time today and for decades of work on stuff that a lot of us are very passionate about. And we can't wait to see what's next, man. So hopefully we get to do this again. So thank you. Oh, it's been a great pleasure. You want details? Bye. I drive a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all, kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Life advice, rr at gmail.com. Hope everybody has a Merry Christmas that celebrates this week. And we got Kyle, we got Steve as always.

So, uh, I want to make sure we gave you a full pod here before the week. Let's out Kyle, uh, just a quick update, whatever, wherever you want to go.

We know we had a ringer Spotify celebration with a couple employees last night, and we got a couple of texts from you and, uh, we appreciate you spirit award for you getting up this early um it just felt like it was a it was a midweek frolic room attendance this is what it sounds like right yeah well yeah well yesterday was a big it was back-to-back day i had to cover a bill pod i had to cover a um uh rewatchable shout out to craig um also congrats to craig i

guess uh it doesn't suck so bad that i had to work for you yesterday because you got engaged congrats buddy using your vacation time well uh but so basically i just ran through some stuff um and then i had two other things i was working on it just seemed like an absolute marathon that i looked up and i was like oh i haven't i haven't moved from the seat but it's only three o'clock i'm out of here so i just three o'clock frolic room. Three o'clock. Okay. So you were either that was a,

that was a long shift. You got out of there early. You look fine by the way. You sound great. So thanks. Yeah. I don't think it's any, any, but you were DJing and they weren't loving what you were doing.

Cause you were in the zone. Well, I kept it going. I kept it early. I try to do, I look around and I'm like, all right, there's guys in denim and they're old and their hats are older than me.

So I'll put on... What will you do? What will you do if you see that? Led Zeppelin. I'll put on... I don't know. I kind of have my things. I'll throw a couple.

Billy Joel in there. I'm a big fan of Billy Joel. I'll throw some... Maybe Ozzy. Maybe just Ozzy. So I've got to request some Dio. So I was like, all right. Ronnie James.

Yeah. You pick the song. So these guys are going to you with requests? They're like, Kyle, put the song. The guys who have been there long enough, well, who's seen me there enough, been there long enough. Like these guys have all been here forever.

They know that I'm the guy. They're like, oh, yeah, he's doing it now. He's doing his thing. And then when those guys kind of trickle out and sometimes when the, there's a big theater right there, the Pantages, which is running Hamilton, so it's still a pretty big deal. And every once in a while, just intermission or the pre-show

or the post-show just gets flooded. This bar with, like, 30 seats just gets flooded with, like, 100 people. And then I'll be like, all right, it's time for G-Unit. Or, like right it's time for g unit or like it's time for it's time for a little john act of fool like you know i don't i don't know it's always somewhere somewhere mid 2000s you know 2012 at the latest but um yeah i try to keep it respectful until it just gets chaos and then i'm like yeah i don't really care what you guys say about me now is your girlfriend with you no she doesn't actually like the bar so much. And that's actually perfect.

Yeah, that kind of works out. It's perfect. Hey, look, being a DJ is tough. You can't please everybody. It's like being a politician. No, I agree. It's a lot of pressure. But you kind of know the vibes and the ebbs and flows. You look at who people are coming in, what music they think. I just consider

some old dude walking in and he's like,yle play stairway to heaven and i was like all right got it um no i've i've actually learned a lot of stuff there there's one of the good songs this dude fella kuti who's uh african dude and um he plays like 13 minute songs but some of the like there's like some good stretches but i'll every once in a while i'll forget i'm not supposed to play that and then i play like a 13 minute song and they're like dude really so they do have a skip button sometimes they skip stuff and uh they'll override you they have an override and i played i dumped like 20 in and played like 35 credits worth of hip-hop and they skipped the first song and i was like it's gonna you're gonna have to skip a lot and

then i left so i don So I don't know. I played like, I played like, we got through like seven songs that I was like, you're gonna have to keep skipping if you want, like do whatever you want. I'm out of here, guys. So I don't know, there was like, probably an hour of classic 2000s hip hop after I left. So who knows what happened? Yeah, we used to do that at laundromats. We didn even use any of the services we would just go in drop five bucks in the jukebox turn it all the way up just the worst stuff and leave like achy achy breaky heart i don't know why we thought that was so funny but boy did we laugh when we got in the car um yeah 13 minutes a little hallelujah chicken run band perhaps in there some of that maybe that's probably not in the in the jukebox the best one is mountain

jam like if you can ever find a jukebox. The best one is mountain jam. Like if you can ever find a jukebox, they don't have it very often, but if you can pull off mountain jam, cause then people will kind of look around for a while. Like, is this song been on for 20 minutes? You're like actually 30,

actually 38, but I don't, I don't know. I know it's happened once. So I don't feel like I'm making that up. I know it happened in a car once. And somebody was like, wait,

what the hell is going on? The song keeps going. All right, let's get to life advice. We've got a few. We've got some follow-ups here. You know what? The moving story, this is so vicious and nasty that I'm just going to read it because I chuckled.

Hey, guys, the story of the guy who moved his girlfriend to Iowa from Virginia only to break up. Said girlfriend reminded me of a story 20 years ago. My stepsister had gone from Ohio to USC for college and met a guy there. They got engaged while still in school and both graduated. He, being from Virginia, needed to move his college belongings back to his parents' house while she was going to bring back things to Ohio. He rented a truck, packed it up, and the two of them set off east, ready to soon start their life together.

Truck arrives in Ohio. He unpacks her things with her and is ready to go to virginia with his things when she hands him the ring dumps him on the spot you can't say the girl wasn't resourceful quite a long con if you ask me free moving merry christmas that probably wasn't a great day for that guy um Um, but what you can do is probably go, if she's capable of doing something like this, then this means it's not somebody that I would want to be with. But what a piece of shit. I mean,

there's also that part of it too. It's like, you know what? You really free moving him, driving your stuff on packing and unpacking. It's like, Oh, by the way,

now I'm going to dump you. People like that. Sue for that. Yeah. No, there should be common sense court. And throw out all the laws and you just go, I don't know who the judge would be. Maybe me.

Judge Judy. Yeah. And you just go, hey, you suck. Like, don't do that to that guy. You have to pay 51% of the moving costs plus gas. I'm surprised she didn't sell the ring. Okay. All right. um i'm surprised she didn't sell the ring okay all right uh we had a few you know the follow-up stuff again oh yeah we had this uh ryan and fraternities

as an indian dude i don't understand how frats work i didn't know that um but it sounds like ryan ran his into the ground clarification on that timeline just so people understand i was out of school at that point i still lived in the town um i wasn't exactly captain late night even though thinking of it age-wise to be 23 and still be in the town it wouldn't have been the worst thing um but i didn't do it really very often um and it got shut down, I think, that winter anyway. So I wasn't even involved with it. I wasn't living there. I was still living in the town, though. So slightly different, but I

wanted to clear that up because I didn't leave until I left for Trenton. And school-wise, I've told this story before, graduated by playing badminton, testing out a badminton. I've told that story before on the pod i think i think so i've heard badminton i don't remember why yeah well i mean saruti knows it and whenever

i see the saruti kind of alert go off in like dude you told us you told us don't tell it again although the audience has grown quite a bit in the last year so maybe we'll uh tell that story another time okay uh let's do one more follow up he was talking about the climbing stuff the two Netflix shows that are out the Marc Andre one I think is a little bit older though isn't it yeah I don't know but I stumbled upon that

like surfing what is it on Netflix and the guy was just like casually broke that other dudes record out of nowhere so I haven't watched yet but i'm actually going to go circle back on that because it was actually a great trailer the trailer's terrific i've watched the trailer over and over again because this is really professional like alex is this amazing climber everybody knows in the community being like yeah this guy mark andre

is like i tell stories about him all day long and at first you're like ah is this guy really and then you watch the movie and you go this marc andre guy was incredible okay um climbing love the podcast my name's well we'll leave the name out just to whatever um we'll just say kevin how about that and he lives in cam loops bc that's uh british columbia canada i don't know how i don't feel super confident but it's end of the week we'll be all all right. Owns my own business that involves climbing trees instead of rocks. I haven't lifted since I started doing tree work, but I'm 5'10", 215, a little softer now that I run the business, but I'm in a great tree work shape. You're probably in the best tree work shape of almost anybody walking around. If you're climbing trees, think of lifting, twisting and, uh,

think of lifting and twisting heavy things or heaving heavy things in the worst possible way for your body eight hours a day. I hope you own that company, dude. Yeah, I digress. I stopped rock climbing when I started doing tree work, but there are a lot of similarities. I've rock climbed and tree climbed with every body type,

so if you think you're too bulky or anything like that, it doesn't matter. It's all about the legs. Trusting your feet, core balance. Yes, upper body helps, but if you're in a tree climb with every body type so if you think you're too bulky or anything like that it doesn't matter it's all about the legs trusting your feet core balance uh yes upper body helps but if you're in a tree for six hours straight or climbing a cliff i would rather trust my legs and my arms great core strength is needed for both the spurs on your feet definitely help for trees uh fuck those spurless climber geeks you know what i don't want to get involved in this i don't want to get involved in a spur spurless tree thing i i defer to you you clearly are a badass if you climb trees all day and then chuck logs all over the place although many of us would like to think we're capable of those physical tests a lot of us would

not make it through the eight hour day and you have trained your body to deal with this as such i think that's incredible as far as me if climbing obviously i'd be a free climber because i would have so that's why i'm not going to do it. You know, ropes, dude. Come on. What kind of trees are we talking about? Redwoods? Like, I don't even.

Just trees that got to come down. Douglas firs. I'm going to guess Douglas firs, but I have no idea. Okay. Let's stop with the follow-ups. I went too long on that. Plane seat change request life advice. This is a good one.

A very good one. This guy even put it, he inserted a chart into the email too and it's terrific work. Okay. Measurables. He went deep on this too. Fuck it.

30 years old, 6'2". He spurted 5'10 to 6'2", senior year of high school. That's great. We do not now need growth spurt data, but we appreciate it. 195. It's a similar need growth spurt data, but we appreciate it. 195. It's a similar type growth spurt, dude.

Don't worry. You did. You jumped four inches senior year? It was actually more. I believe it was my sophomore into junior year. No, maybe it was my freshman into sophomore. I was 5'1 and went up to about 5'7, 5'8. And now I'm 5'10.

So it was quite the spurt. I looked like I was about 7 and then looked like I was about 12 in high school. Late bloom. Don't be mad about looking young because when you're 40 and people think you're 30, in case you get divorced or anything, that's going to work in your favor. I meant just vaguely, not you specifically.

Sorry. Gross spurt talk. Benchmacks, squat, not great. We'll just leave it out. You used to run the mile. Okay, cool. Big fan of the show. Would like your advice on the situation I experienced on a two-hour Spirit Airlines flight last week. Did you blow your brains out and still email us? That's a ringing endorsement. Probably not going to be a sponsor, so we'll just keep it moving. All right. endorsement probably not going to be a sponsor so we'll just keep it moving all right um i'm a reasonably sponsors yeah like we're still trying to get back to pretzels bro ads uh yeah so anybody who's taking spirit that is in itself um i think that's the final night of hazing for a lot of fraternities uh to to mix in the content here. Reasonably tall guys. You mentioned 6'2", that Grosberg man. Yeah.

All right. I like getting an aisle seat. It was a two by two plane. So two seats, two seats, right? Aisle down the middle. With seats A and D and B and C. All right, we got it. So 14A is a window.

Actually, I don't need all this information. Most of us have been on planes. We can figure it out. So he was assigned 14B. He's very technical. So I don't need all this information. Most of us have been on planes. We can figure it out. So he was assigned 14B. He's very technical, so I got to give it to him. So 14B is the aisle to the left side. 14A, 14B, aisle, and then C and then D.

Okay. All right. We should just cut out all of this and start over, but we're not going to. I was pretty happy I got 14B. Worth clarifying, I did not pay to pick a seat with Spirit, but was randomly assigned the seat. I boarded the plane, got to my seat, pulled on my headphones, started listening to a podcast, likely life advice.

I was pretty comfortable in my seat when a few minutes later, a lady in her mid-30s approached me with what must have been her mom in her early 60s behind her. She said something to the effect of, hi, would you mind switching seats with me? I'm in 24D. All right, deep in it so we're talking further back 10 rows window seat um so she's like i'm in 24d my mom is sitting next to you kyle already says no

like sitting next to you in 14a i'd like to sit next to her she said in a pretty assumptive way below is a diagram all right we right, we've got that. To be entirely honest, I didn't have any interest to switching seats to 24D. I really don't like the window seats. I needed to deplane quickly to make it to an event when I landed. So wait, you didn't have a connecting flight, but you had to make it to an event? You're still at the mercy of a lot of other things there, but we're still on your side here. So I figured that moving from 14 to 24 would set me back about five or six minutes when we landed. This guy's pretty technical. So actually, I could see him kind of almost being down to the minute. This is like Royal Tenenbaums where they're

testing themselves. Ben Stiller's like, our fire and rescue times are still too slow. All right. I wasn't a big fan of the way she asked. It was, anyway, we already covered that. I was more able-bodied than either of them. So I said, sure. Got out of my seat, got my bag out of the overhead compartment, and then went back to 24D. The flight was fine, I guess, although I was slightly less comfortable in the window seat than I would have been in an aisle seat. The way I saw it, there were three ways I could have handled the situation. Politely apologize and say I needed 14B because I needed it to plane quickly and preferred an aisle seat.

Two, I could ask her if she'd keep her seat in 24D and ask whoever was in C if they wanted to come up to 14A where the lady's mom's ticket was. Three, agree to switch and trust that someday someone will pay it forward when I have a similar situation. They probably won't. All right. I chose option three. So he switched seats. Two hours. My rule is pretty simple.

If it's a kid, I'll switch the seat. When somebody's like, hey, my kid, he's sitting in this seat, and I want to sit next to my kid, you've got to be an asshole to go, no, I want your kid to sit next to strangers while his mom is four rows away. Sorry. You've got to be an asshole to go no i want your kid to sit next to strangers while his mom is four rows away sorry like you gotta be now if we're going seven hours to europe and you pick the aisle because there's there's also times too i'm convinced of this people book it a certain fucked up way knowing they're going to try to guilt you with some deal especially so there are no middle seats on this flight because if somebody comes to me wanting to trade a middle for an aisle or a window and it's like, Oh my friend, you're like, peace, beat it. Um, the mom thing, you know, more, more inclined to be sympathetic. A lot of it is,

how do you ask if this person was a little pushy and just assumed that everything was going to go away, I could understand how that would be a turnoff so my rule is pretty consistent i will do most anything for a kid um but there you know you just see a lot of people do stuff we know they're full of shit too like my favorite is the guy with the windows or the guy with the aisle nobody pulls like you're gonna have some stones to do it if you have a middle so three on one side i've got window i used to be an aisle guy now i'm a window guy don't know what that means but it's just kind of the move now and you'll see the aisle guy sitting in your window seat and then you walk up and you're like hey you know i'm in there and the guy's like oh well i could just stay here if you want the aisle

and you're like what am i an asshole like i know what you're doing you wanted the aisle. And you're like, what am I, an asshole? Like, I know what you're doing. You wanted the window. You didn't get it. And now you think you're doing me some sort of favor. And then it turns out, like, I hate in general when people are kind of like, they get the better end of the deal or they're getting something they prefer,

but they act like they're doing you the favor. So, you know, it's just like, no, beat it. Like, I'll get almost rude with that one. It's just like, oh, really? That's how the transaction is going to work. And then every now and then there'll be kind of like a pushy situation where it's like, hey, is there any way you can have yours? And you're like, what do you got? What do you got? Like, oh, you know, I'm 37B middle. Like, really? For fucking 10A? you know, do you, do you have any cash on you? You know? So my rule is, is always, um,

kids over everything else and then adjust accordingly. Kyle. No kids. Yeah. You gotta be a kid. Um, you gotta be, uh,

an army, uh, current, current army guy going somewhere that sucks. For the troops, huh? Or you got to have a doctor's note. It's going to be absolutely nothing for any of those. I've said no many times.

Many times. Give me your best no. Give me your best no that went. No, I'm tall. This guy's already digging into my knees. I'm going to be fighting him all day. I need the aisle. That's why I do this.

Paid extra money for the aisle. It's easy. I just treat it like somebody's asked me for a cigarette. No. You say no to people for a cigarette? Yeah, all the time. Because I don't ask people for cigarettes. Ah, okay.

You've never asked somebody for a cigarette? No, I do. I do. But I can see when a guy's like, I can just tell when it's like you do this every day rather than like, oh, shit. Do you have any? I think I just, like that's like, I get it. rather than like oh shit uh do you have any i

think i just like that's like i get it i get it i mean you should just be looking for a store pal they're everywhere but um i get it um but if it's a guy who's just like coming and he's just you know looking for guys who have cigarettes in their hands it's like oh fuck you no your fraud alert is very high on that exactly exactly so most times unless it's a kid pretty much um you know because the the army guys are way too proud to even ask they just wait for somebody to say it for them but um yeah if it's just like somebody especially if it's like a couple it's like yeah could have said it to my girlfriend fuck you no you can't you should have bought your tickets together yeah i wouldn't even ask to be honest with you like if my wife and i like weren't able

to sit next to each other on a plane and deal with their guy could you ask this person if he could switch i'd be like no like i'm not we bought we bought we bought our seats and i'm gonna i'm gonna these are the consequences i have to pay so i would just be uncomfortable on myself now so wait if you were flying to hawaii with your wife all right well no that's a different story and there was an opportunity to ask you wouldn't ask you would just go no we're not sitting next to each other you'd be like i would just accept my place i mean most likely yes i mean listen if it's if it's a seven out well i guess it would be like a 10 11 hour flight to hawaii because we went there on our honeymoon if we didn't buy seats next to each other like that's on us also what are you doing then yeah i mean so like yeah i can't i'm not gonna ask yeah but sometimes look sometimes there's there's

no two seats next to each other. You don't know that. I mean, it could happen. So we know that going in. Like we bought the seats that weren't any available. It's an 11-hour flight from New York to Hawaii. Like I'm not going to ask somebody to change seats. That's not fair. What if you both had windows?

What if you're a rose away, you're in a window, your wife's in a window, and you go to the guy in the middle, and you're like, hey, do you want a window seat so I can sit next to my wife? It's our honeymoon. You wouldn't even do that. I mean, actually, in that case, I might I don't want to sit in the middle.

So I might be like, hey, sorry, we bought these tickets. You know, it actually it actually does suck, though, because. I'm an incredibly generous husband and whenever we fly. So we so as I said, we went to Hawaii on our honeymoon, which was awesome, but it was, it was a four, it was a two, four, two point. And we were good. Like the two was great, but like most flights are three and three. Right. So I'm always stuck in the middle. Cause she doesn't want to sit in the middle. I'm in, I'm in a, I'm a window guy, just like you, right? Like I'd rather sit in the window

than an aisle, but I'm always stuck in the middle because she likes to sit on the aisle. So I'm always in the middle. So if there's an opportunity for me to sit in an sit in a window than an aisle, but I'm always stuck in the middle because she likes to sit on the aisle, so I'm always in the middle. If there's an opportunity for me to sit in a window seat or an aisle seat by myself and not have to ask somebody and have the awkward conversation with somebody, I'm going to take it. I agree. Accept your fate. Whenever it's two friends, right? The friend is in the middle, then it's two friends right and so she'll be the friend is in the middle then it's another stranger in the aisle i'm in the window and then i would i would tell you more often than not they're not going to ask me to look at me and be like i wouldn't ask that guy um that is true you could really like judge like whether or not someone's going to be likely to say yes or no and you're

definitely a hard no guy yeah and so but it'll be like girls that are sophomores in college and they're flying somewhere. I love that. I love that. Is there any way you would switch so I can sit next to my friend? Like what? So you can talk about boys. Like,

wait, you want me to give up a window for a middle because you guys are friends. Like, if you're that close, you're going to see each other. So you're gonna spend time as soon as we land. Like you get through this, you get through this fucking watch aquaman and they've got seat to seat messaging almost everywhere yeah play some play some candy crush watch aquaman eat

your pretzels and fuck off all right i think we covered that i think we covered that um okay last one here because this one actually we can we can slide another quick one here 30 years old six feet 205 fantasy football league with 12 close friends from college um we're all spread across the country now but we've made it a yearly tradition to get together for a guy's weekend centered around the fantasy draft we've made it uh where the winner from the previous season gets to choose the draft destination this year one of the guys of the finals wants to go to disney world as a as his choice if he wins uh this plays in well off the sarah walsh interview as you know the stat is i went i believe six times five times for draft camp stuff

and then the six so the name of story that i told earlier my question is the guy who has rocked the solo disney trip before do you think it's weird for 12 30 year old dudes some fathers now to go party in disney world for the? I think this is one of the single worst ideas I've ever heard. I cannot express this. There's no middle ground. I don't want to hear any explanation. There's not a part of this I don't understand. This is the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard. I

didn't want to be there by myself Disney World. Dude, I sat at Benihana with like three newly wed couples, I think. And honestly, like one of the wives was digging me way more than the guy she just married and it was super fucking uncomfortable because they were not that i'm so hot they were pretty standard and um they were wasted and they were having a blast and then it kind of got like a little flirty and weird and i was just like hey

i'm i'm fine being by myself guy um as much as i have been but that wasn't that is not the deal so then you're thinking well it's the it's even worse like there's going to be all sorts of alerts on these guys 12 hammer dudes running through disney world without a kid or a wife to be seen this is one of the worst social gathering ideas i've ever heard we're going to six flags instead or don't go to a mute. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think it's terrible.

It's just weird, man. Like when I was there by myself and I'd sit at the pool or something and read a book before the next thing that I had to be for work-wise, people are looking at you going, who's the man that's just here by himself reading a fucking book? Like, what a weird. Oh, there he is again again so don't do it um and it's expensive i mean you can go you know night at disney couple nights at disney it's like a ton of money you can go somewhere probably way cooler uh always for like the same guys that you have um not even vegas any anywhere so i don't understand it from a cost benefit standpoint and from just like a hanging out standpoint yeah i'm again, I don't think we need to add much more to this.

This might be the end of that rule. This might be the end of that rule. I'd be furious. I'd be furious. I mean, we used to have a golf thing that guys are really good about all getting together. And then one year, you know, guys did Atlanta because it was close to like where a guy lived

and he organized it and it worked out fine. I think another year was San Diego, another year was Vegas, and then one guy won it, and then he picked Biloxi, Mississippi. And people were like, what the fuck? And honestly, everybody was still young and dumb enough that they just went along with it. Guys still talk about it. It's been 20 years.

Did you talk about the disaster of Biloxi? Yeah, that they were like, like you of all the destinations, you picked that one. Cause you heard, he'd heard from like one other guy that it was actually awesome and underrated. So then 20 guys. Now at that point,

like after the first couple, I was so broke that I couldn't even afford to go on it. So I missed it altogether. So I didn't have to go. Um, no, I'm serious. I just,

you know, there was, there's some lean years there we've talked about it but uh they the guys still talk about it like just one guy who won the tournament decided all right i'm gonna do something a little different we're gonna switch it up we're gonna go to biloxi and as it was happening people were like what the fuck and granted if it had been when everybody was about 30 you know a little bit more experience the more seasoning there would have been a revolt but i guess guys are just young enough they're like all right we'll check it out and then i asked guys like how was it like we just golfed but it wasn't like when you still could go to vegas i don't know again or go to just chicago or something and then you're staying in the city

um you know another thing too that you'll do because of tea times and all that stuff when you're young and you do those golf trips it's, hey, 7 a.m. tee time. And you're just like, no, stop. Nothing before 9. Nothing. Nothing before 9. You know, we did Colorado, which was brutal for a couple of guys who stayed up the entire night and then just got right on the golf fan. And we were like, how long are these guys going to last today?

And I've had a couple of those, too, where, you know, you're teeing off and you're going, all right, don't know how I'm going to feel. Whole 12. All right. Last thing here. It's not your fault, Matty. 66210, elite rowing machine. Mormon, one wife.

Check it in. Okay. Nice. All right. Good sense of humor about it. Yeah, yeah. Right. He said it, not us.

He's referencing something here that's 10 years old. Maybe, shoot, it could be 12. I forget the year. It's Matt Damon promoting Invictus on SVP when it wasn't SVP and Ursula. It was the Scott Van Pelt Show. And he wanted to ask about that.

The reason I'm reading this email is that I will admit that's probably one of the five proudest moments I've ever had in my career. Pulling that off and getting Matt Damon to laugh. I don't know, Rudy, if we can ever find a link to that again. I don't know. I just shot a Google. We'll see what comes up, but it's going to be hard.

Yeah, I don't because I think I looked for it once before because people were asking for it. So again, the question is this, when Russillo said, it's not your fault, Matty, to Matt Damon, it was a perfect sports media moment. So that I can reach that level in my job, can Russillo walk us through what was going through his head

and how he executed so perfectly. I want to take those principles and apply them in my life. All right, so I think anybody that's listened to me for that long will know that every now and then I'll take a swing and I know the chances of it working are like less than 10%. And sometimes I'll bomb. You know, when we tried with Nate Bargatze, that bomb is, and he wasn't fun about it at all.

And people kind of got bummed out about it. Some people thought it was hilarious how bad it was. I had a couple friends. They were divided. They were like, never stop doing that. And other guys were like, I always kind of think you're like one of the funnier guys we know. And that was terrible. And I was like, yep, that's fine.

That's fine. But we're still going to keep doing it. We did it with Jeff Garland. That went even worse. But I'm not. Yeah, the Garland one. I couldn't even tell. We still can't even tell what his vibe was,

if he was just giving you shit or if he actually hated it. I think him eating for 30 minutes during an interview kind of tipped us off that he wasn't. That was crazy. Yeah, that he wasn't really into. What's wrong with you, guy? That's crazy. But didn't he say at the start of the pod,

he was like, I do this because I do this with people that I like. So he was kind of throwing you off. I think that's a cop out. Yeah, I don't believe he wastes his time. I don't know. Who knows? I don't believe any of that. I think he was kind of promoting something because he he was in his he done Chris Long's pod, you know, and you usually will talk to your other buddies like, hey, are you getting this guy or whatever?

And so I think he was in the mix there. So I think he was trying to like be nice to me, but I don't think he could give a shit at all, at all. And that was, that was fine. But when you're going to eat the whole interview, I was like,

all right, so whatever. And then at the end, I also though, even though I didn't love that part of it, I still liked the interview. He was fine. But I knew it wasn't going to go well.

And I actually am sympathetic to it. I mean, it's, it's kind of like that story I told about when I was back in Boston. The guy was going to tell me about Chauncey Billups. And he had this Chauncey Billups thing. And he was convinced he was right. And I was like, okay, well, here's why you're wrong about Chauncey Billups. And then I took him through the whole thing. And he's like, yeah, I don't really believe you.

And I go, okay, the problem is that I knew the guys in the front office that made that decision at the time. They told me what happened. And I became friends with Chauncey Billups. And then he told me what happened. And I couldn with chauncey billups and then he told me what happened and i have i couldn't have a better full scope of the entire fucking story and i'm telling you what happened and you're still telling me i'm wrong like all right i was like all right i was like hey man really nice meeting you i'm out of here like that was it so this shit happens jeff garland all the time hey got a great curb thing i mean larry it must be brutal so i'm still sensitive to knowing as I was doing it it's never going to work sorry so Matt Damon

Van Pelt and I started doing the Boston Accents it happened very organically we were watching a golf tournament together while we were prepping for a show and for whatever reason because Scott can do almost any voice, we just started doing golf commentary in the Boston accents. And, you know, I'll try to come up with examples. I was always afraid to do it on the fly because I was going to swear back on radio. We had to tape those because we were just going to swear no matter what. I'd be like, dude, Nick Faldo. What kind of fucking truck you think Nick Faldo drives?

And then Van Pelt be like, super duty yeah no shit right like fucking imagine Nick Faldo to fucking drive around at a fucking F-150 with two wheel like no way no way fucking super duty maybe a dually fucking trailer hitch can you imagine what fucking size trailer hitch you think Nick Faldo has and that was it and we just started going back and forth and we did it for like an hour and it was kind of like insane that we were laughing so hard just entertaining each other and that's friendship um so then that became the segment we started kind of doing that stuff so when matt damon was booked i think we at first we were supposed to have him in person he was supposed to do a car wash didn't work out um i had also heard that of all the celebrities that are out there that matt damon is still a guy that is on the normal side of the spectrum and that if anything was going to work a guy like that you

have a better chance with so i go look let's do something different let's try something that stands out instead of fucking seven minutes on invictus and, hey, you know, how'd you get into character and all this different stuff, which is what you always do anyway. You know, I still do it because you kind of feel like you have to you owe it to the person that's coming on to promote what it is that they're doing. So you've got to ask them some questions. I'm like, let's try something that if we land it, it'll be unbelievable. And Scott's like, absolutely. I go, let's do the accents. I know it seems cliche with Damon, but we're funny.

We do good accents. It'll work if we do it right. And Scott's like, all right, absolutely. So right before he's supposed to come by and do this car wash, we get word that he's not coming and that he's doing it by phone. And pham pelt's like we're not doing it we're not doing it if he's not in person we're not doing it and i go yeah i know i go but you know what i still think we should i go who cares and he's like i don't want to look like an and here's the thing is scott is always more corporate than me um he is he is better at being like a representative of something than I will ever be.

He just is. It's so good. He is, he's figured that part out of it in a great way. My thing is that, you know, how many times I've talked to Matt Damon since that time? Zero. And there's no way, even if I nail it and I run into Matt Damon, like we're not going to become buddies. He doesn't need a guy like me now entering his life at this state, like post 50 and be like, you know, I've been hanging out with a lot is Russillo. It's been awesome. Like that's not

going to happen. But when you're younger, you kind of be like, oh, you know, I want Matt Damon to think I'm cool or whatever. Um, I did not care it bombed. And I was like, dude, it doesn't matter if Matt Damon, if it fucking bombs. Oh, no, we're not going to be buddies with Matt Damon. But Scott in a smarter way than me was like, I'd rather not have a shitty interview with Matt Damon and have him be like, those guys suck, which is a very good point. Okay. So we go into the interview and I'm, I'll admit a little pissy because i was like what the fuck we're just going to talk about this stupid rugby movie the whole time again not a stupid movie i shouldn't even have said it i'm simply saying in in the larger you're projecting

onto the movie now right right well no matter what the movie was i'm like all right you know we're just gonna be like hey so tell us tell us a little bit about uh did you play rugby growing up you know what i mean like all the questions that everybody always asks. So Damon comes on, we're taping. That's important too. And Scott's off to the corner. I'm on a little side chair in this little, little studio back before they expanded the radio department.

And I'm looking at Scott. I'm like, we should do it. He was going really well. We're four or five minutes in six minutes. I was like, this is going really well. And he was out. Damon's great. He's unbelievable. Whenever he's on with bill, I'm like, this guy's so fucking good. So I'm looking at Scott. I'm like, dude, I think, I think we're going to do it. I was like, we should do it. And he's like, no, don't do it. Don't do it. Right.

And then we're mouthing this to each other. We're hitting, you know, our talk back button or hitting the cough button. So we can talk and it's not going out of the mic. He's like, don't, don't. I'm like, dude, I think I'm going to do it. I think I'm going to do it. And look, this is still kind of more Scott's real estate than it is mine. You know, and that's not kind of, it's a hundred percent true. So it's, it's wrapping up and I go, I'm doing it, doing it. And so I just went, you know, Hey, Maddie, And so I just went, you know, hey, Maddie, Maddie G, question for you. And the whole point was I wanted him to try to say that he regretted something.

So I asked him, hey, do you regret not getting into the ground floor of Affleck Insurance, considering how close you are with Ben? And then he laughed, but I did it in the accent. And then I said, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. And he fucking like hardcore hard hard laugh and then scott jumped in and started doing like his routine about the dvds of the volume eight pirates something or whatever which is really good he kind of had practice because we knew what we wanted to do and how we wanted to practice it but the point is this there's a very good chance that would have bombed um damon was the reason it didn't

it had more to do with the guests than anything we were going to say but most guests are going to claim up be like oh cool you guys are going to try to do like it's like when will ferrell comes on and you go oh you're going to try to be funnier than me okay cool which i did try when i had him and but by the way it worked that one worked and there's been a bunch of others that haven't worked, that haven't worked. Have you shared the Krasinski story? Because that was when you actually didn't do it, right? I didn't do it with Krasinski. Yeah.

Krasinski, I wanted to do the entire interview as if you were Jim, still, but was blowing up as a movie star. Being like, can you believe where you're at now and where you were all those years? And then I told him after, I was like, hey, I kind of want to do this he's like oh that would have been great and i could tell it was like i'm really glad you didn't do that actually because it's fucking stupid so his words did not match the look on his face he's like oh really that's super original yeah cool cool cool that would be great uh all right so there you go uh i don't i don't know what i don't know what lesson is in there i i think the lesson is if you end up having a talk show and you have some people on it you know take some chances every now and then because i know i will know in the moment like

this there's a better chance this doesn't work than does work and i'd rather I'd rather fuck it up a few times to then never have anything ever kind of stand out. And honestly, I still don't know that I push myself enough to ask stuff that's totally out there or, you know, right to it. But I think I get there eventually, but sometimes I think, but again, that's a whole nother thing on massaging interviews and the guests and kind of warming them up. Like even with Michael Wolff on Wednesday, when the first answer I go, Oh no, like, I don't know if I'm going to get to where I want to get to here.

Cause he was, he was quick. And then he kind of warmed up after a couple of minutes and then we got there. So I wasn't going to try to, uh, do any jokes with Michael Wolff though. So anyway,

all right, there you go. Um, again, Merry Christmas. We'll be back on Monday. So, uh,

we'll have the NBA wrap and the NFL stuff. We'll probably have a big, big pod there. I know we rambled there a bit at the end, but we kind of just wanted to. Anything left? Anything else for you guys? I don't think we need to add anything else to that. That's why I went for so long.

Okay. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Steve. Ryan Russo, the podcast, Spotify, Ringer. Please subscribe and enjoy the weekend. you