The Sean McDowell Show - What 50 Years Studying the Resurrection Taught Me - Gary Habermas

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Gary Habermas has likely studied the historical evidence for the resurrection more than anyone who has ever lived. He's just finished a four-volume work on it and he told me the final volume, on theology and practice, may be the last thing he writes on the subject. It's my favorite of the four, and I wanted to ask him why he made the turn. READ: On the Resurrection: Volume 4, by Gary Habermas (https://amzn.to/4gE7qGI) Make sure to subscribe and check out some of my other videos for more on Christianity, Theology and other aspects of culture! CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) CHECK OUT: Consider Supporting the Ministry! (https://seanmcdowell.org/give) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Timestamps 0:00 — How central is the resurrection? 1:21 — Why he turned from evidence to practice 2:32 — Why the resurrection completes the gospel 6:50 — Faith and radical commitment 9:04 — Not by works, but unto them 10:47 — Suffering: his first wife, and now Eileen 13:31 — Why errors in the gospels wouldn't undo the resurrection 16:44 — Persecution 21:11 — Emotional doubt, and why it's most of it 25:32 — The fear of death 28:05 — Living in the power of the resurrection 30:37 — Why the final chapter is on heaven 36:03 — The card he received when his first wife was dying 37:08 — Is he finished writing on the resurrection? 44:06 — The book he might still write, on simple living 47:20 — The new questions he's living with at 76 50:07 — Living with questions you can't answer Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Life Audio. How central is the resurrection to the Christian message in practice? You can't say it much more centrally than this. It's everything. Paul says, remove that one thing and forget all the heavy theology we talk about. It gives meaning to the deity, the death, the resurrection we call the gospel message, all of pastoral theology, all of practice. There are hundreds of verses on the resurrection in New Testament.

And it is related to virtually every major doctrine and to most of the most of the major practices in the Christian faith. Jesus sold him, I mean, died for us. He gave us everything. And he calls us to be as radically committed to him as he was to us. Our guest today has likely studied the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus more than anyone who has ever lived. He just finished a massive four-volume defense of the resurrection. And the final volume on the meaning and practice of the resurrection has just released. Dr. Gary Harvamos, thanks for granting me one of of your first interviews on this new volume. Personally, this volume may be my favorite because you get

down to the nitty gritty of what it means to really live out one's resurrection faith. So, thanks for coming back and for writing a great volume. Yeah, and Sean, I may be wrong, but I think yours is the first interview, I believe. Got some more lined up, but I think yours is the first. Awesome. Well, let's jump in. And this question I've wanted to ask you for a long time, you spent the early years of your academic life studying the resurrection by focusing on the evidence. After many years, I want to know why you switched. And what you wrote in this volume was, quote, I felt strongly convicted to studying the theological and practical aspects.

And what did you find an experience when you switched? Well, like you say, it's a long story. I went through the evidence at first because I went through doubt, serious doubt for me, serious enough that after my Ph.D., I almost left the faith. And so I wasn't a little kid. This is after my Ph.D. But as time went on, I'd say it started about 1990, and it grew 92, 95. My wife passed away and mother of my five children. Sorry, mother of my four children passed away in 95.

And the conviction kept growing that I needed to relate the resurrection to theology and practice, which is the title of the fourth volume. And I wanted to say why it is relevant to our living today. Because the resurrection is the center of the gospel. I mean, it's amazing. Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15, if Jesus died but it wasn't raised, his death was in vain. So you need the resurrection to complete the gospel. And if you've got the resurrection, now we can start talking about how should it work in people's lives,

to show them that this is the Christian and correct worldview. And what about all the areas of pastoral practice? You know, when people go through doubts, when people die, when their families are sick and they wonder, where's God when you need them? Holy Spirit, what's the Holy Spirit got to do with the resurrection? All these things are tied together, but the nexus is easily the deity death and resurrection. and the nexus of that nexus is the resurrection because Paul said you don't have any of the others without that. That's right.

So I wanted to see lives changed. That was short of it. I wanted to see, okay, I know this stuff and it helped me. Can it help somebody else the same way? Can it change lives so I can tell the Lord I did what I think is the best possible thing to evidence it, but to spread it around so it can be lived? I remember, Gary, your 2003 book, risen Jesus and future hope for years. That was my favorite because you had a defense of the

resurrection. But it's kind of this volume really, but expanded so much more. You made some connections for me in that book that have stuck with me ever since. We're going to get into those. But I did find an interesting you said in this book that in New Testament studies on the gospel, the resurrection is often mentioned in the context of the gospel message or apologetics. Yeah, you say the resurrection is like a many-faceted diamond. What do you mean by that and how central is the resurrection to the Christian message and practice? Well, you can't say it much more centrally than this. It's everything.

Paul says remove that one thing and forget all the heavy theology we talk about. Where does the New Testament ever say anything like what Jesus did on the cross and his shed blood means nothing, nothing, if it's not. not for X. You know, and that X is the resurrection. It gives meaning to the deity, the death, the resurrection, what we call the gospel message. But all of pastoral theology, all of practice, I think, well, let me say it this way. There are hundreds of verses on the resurrection in New Testament. And it is related to virtually every major doctrine and to most of the major practices in the Christian faith. I can't think of any other doctrine. that's no more closely tied.

And when you add that these are true because of the resurrection, I say many faceted diamonds because there are all these looks. Well, you're into the book more than I am right now. There's probably a dozen different things in that book topics. Those are some of the facets on the diamond. But there are many, many more. There's all kinds of evidential facets alone, but all kinds of practice, all kinds of ministry.

it ministers at every single level. And I think the more I read on these things, a new book came out last year, 500 pages on 1st Corinthians 15 alone. It's a technical, very good book. He just, it's the same thing. He ties into the diamond, so to speak, and he finds the whole New Testament tied to the resurrection.

I remember when I was doing my work on the apostles, which now has started 15 years ago in around 2010. And so I read through Acts instead of just getting a commentary, having some doom me, and I was like, I'm going to note every time the resurrection comes up as a part of the one of the messages. And of course, it's in Pentecost in Acts 2. It's in virtually every sermon. You see it at Mars Hill where they almost think, you know, resurrection is another God in some ways they're talking about it so much. And I realized, wait a minute, if this true in Acts in the preaching, how else does this apply to so many other doctrines? And you've made those connections and I love it.

One of the connections you made in this book, and you've been talking about this for years, who's in that book I cited earlier, is if Jesus has risen, it calls for a radical commitment his followers should embrace. So if you'll tell us, what is that radical commitment tied to the resurrection?

And if you'll also tell me, how do you balance that with salvation being by grace, not by works? Yeah, very easily. the chapter title is faith and radical commitment. What's the background for this? And I explained it in that chapter is Jesus talking to the lawyer.

And for your listeners, they need to remember the lawyer does not mean a guy with the J.D. who goes to court and argues a lawyer is a theologian. He's a specialist in the law. And so this guy's going to dialogue with Jesus. and he says, what's the most important thing we should remember that we might have eternal life? And Jesus said, the first one, it's the only time you ever number is his teachings and importance. He says, number one is Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength of mind, which I take to be salvation. Everything from you or me or someone else, everything for God.

I use the example of marriage. when we get married, basically we're saying to each other, all of me belongs to you, all of you belongs to me. I think that's the radical first point, love God with all your hearts, and drink the one. The second one is love your neighbors yourself. And when the guy says, who's my neighbor? Wrong question to ask Jesus. Jesus is waiting for it. He tells the parable of the Good Samaritan and ends by saying, go and do the likewise, which means be willing to sacrifice your life for people hurting, just like this guy did for the guy that was beat up on the road. Those, it could have been catch up and critics, the, you know, criminals could have been over there

and the bushes or behind a rock. But he did anyway. And then he took money out of his pocket and gave it to the innkeeper and said, hey, if this guy runs up a bill, which implies the innkeeper knew him, I'll get you next time I come through and I'll pay his bill. Okay. That's the outline for this chapter. The first word, faith or salvation, that's without works.

But the radical commitment is works just like love your neighbors, yourself is works. And that's the second greatest command. And the only two of Jesus does. So what I'm thinking is, like in marriage, all of me for my wife and all of my wife to me, we're saying that to Jesus when we come to know him. And after you get married, someone asks you, now what are you doing because you're married? How does that change your life? How does that do this and that?

And those are good works. And Jesus said, well, it's Ephesians 28, 9, and 10. You're not saved by good works. Okay? What's first 10? But you're saved unto good works, not by, but unto. And I think that's the radical commitment thing. Jesus sold him is, I mean, died for us. He gave us everything. And he calls us to be as radically

committed to him as he was to us. So that's the two parts. Those are the two greatest commands of Luke 10. And of course, a part of the point is love God with all your heart and your soul and your mind and your strength. And the next question is, has anybody ever done that? The answer is, nope, that's impossible, but it's by God's mercy and by grace we can be saved. Nonetheless, but when we step in that relationship, like you said, calls for radical commitment. And that's tied to the resurrection, because that's the most radical thing we might say that Jesus did on the cross for us willingly. I lay down my life and I pick it up.

So I love that chapter that you draw out. How about the chapter on suffering? The question that I get all the time, Gary. and I know this is personal for you in different ways, and you've been public about this. But what does it mean for our suffering? And would you share some of your own personal journey what the resurrection is meant for you through it? Well, the mother of my four children died in 1995 of stomach cancer. I've been telling people I have a second wife now who has, and I've been saying the same kind of cancer.

Well, I just found out yesterday going up to University of Virginia that in 1995, they said stomach and pancreatic were virtually the same. Now they say there's a difference. So my wife presently is pancreatic, but they're the two nastiest cancers anywhere. They told me in 1995, and they've told me when Eileen first got sick, my present wife. Both of them have told me that it's the worst cancer you can have. I think I heard the phrase 2% of people pancreatic cancer survive. 2%. So yeah, it's made me ask a lot of questions. And one of them is taught up with this, caught up with this program, Sean. It's like this. I'm not trying to point in me and say,

hey, look at these four great volumes. I'll let other people do that like you. I don't go out there and even talk about my four volumes. Don't require them? You still require all four volumes? I use the first two. I can only assign so many, but I would if I could. I thought you said one time you used all four. Anyway, I don't use any of my books. the big ones for the class. I use the risen Gius and Future Hope, but the little one. And so I'm thinking myself of my 50-something books, 30-ish of them on the resurrection.

And I'm thinking to myself when Eileen got diagnosed, can I do anything else on this subject? I don't know what it is. But it's almost like, don't hear me say, so what's my reward is that Eileen's, pancreatic cancer. I'm not doing that, but I'm saying this shouldn't be happening. I just finished the book in December and she got sick in January. I'm thinking, I can't figure this out. What else am I supposed to do? And we've been all over the place. Three, three meetings this last week and it's really,

really rough. We're both really, really tired. But if some things happen that we've just been hearing recently. That could upset the old apple cart. It could turn everything around very positively. But for me, here's the key. Let me say it this way. I tell people all the time, often start my messages in church or in a dialogue or in a whatever. I'll say if there are many errors in scripture. You know, the number one objection to the Christianity from 1729 on English deism through German liberalism all the way to the present. Number one objection, the gospels have contradictions. Okay, fine. Let's just grant that. Yep, there are some problems in the gospels. Yep, let's even say there's some errors. And then I tell people, hey, you all know where I

teach. So therefore, you can go online. You know what our statement is. You know what my view is. That's not my view. But if there are errors description, you think you're going to disprove Christianity, you're barking up the wrong tree. And that's why the minimal facts argument says I can get there without. So it goes like this. If the Bible is inerrant, did the resurrection happen? Well, of course.

If the Bible's only really reliable, Craig Bomberg-wise, is the Bible reliable? Oh, absolutely. What if the Bible is neither inerrant, nor. reliable. I bet you don't have a resurrection now. And I say, oh, pardon me, but I do have a resurrection because I don't need the entire New Testament. So the gospel is the center of apologetics. It's a center of faith. It's the center of everything. And so I start wondering, am I suffering? What am I missing here? I've just read this book, wrote this book, and I got the chapter in suffering. Hey, listeners, it's Kelly from Life Audio. We know life gets busy, and sometimes

it's easy for your faith to get pushed to the side. That's why we created the Good Word, a free weekly newsletter designed to give you a moment to slow down, be encouraged, and reconnect with what matters most, God's Word. Inside, you'll find devotionals, guided prayers, podcast recommendations, and other faith-filled content we think you'll love. No ads, no clutter. Just good content to help you stay rooted in God's Word throughout your week. Sign up for the Good Word today at life audio.com forward slash the good word. That's life audio.com forward slash the good word. There's got to be a key here for me to say, what am I learning through this second time around? I quote Herman's Hermits. I'm Henry the 8th. I am. Second verse, same as the first. That's how I feel

with these two cancer cases. But I'm thinking, God's going to teach me something here. I don't know what it is. So I'm holding on to my faith, trying to help my wife, don't want to be single. She's the rock star in our family. All our kids just love her. Everybody loves her. It's a rough situation. I know there's a key there somewhere, and I'm searching for it. But I'm sure the resurrection is the center for everything, and it is the center of our

suffering as it was for Jesus. Rather, thank you for your honesty and just being raw and real. I'd expect nothing different from you. And yet having faith amidst the questions and just what feels like unbearable pain that doesn't make sense, that testimony itself is powerful. I appreciate it. I share all the time the section that's in this volume because you put it in a couple other volumes where like you're having a conversation with God in joke. And it's just, it's so powerful. People don't have to get the book to see it.

But when it comes to suffering, you talk about not only here's the truth that we believe, but here's the truths that we tell ourselves to trust God through this pain. And I absolutely love that. What about one of the questions you talk about is persecution. And this is especially interesting to me because, again, my doctoral work on the apostles, I remember reading through the New Testament very carefully and noting every time it was told the apostles would suffer or disciples would face persecution. And I was kind of embarrassed about how much I missed that it's present everywhere. It's expected for followers of Jesus.

How does the resurrection inform Christians when they face not necessarily just suffering but persecution? Yeah, you know, on your first point there, Paul is the one that says, all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. All. Here's what I try to tell people. Back to the errors in the Gospels, I'll say, no matter what critics scream at you about errors in the Gospels, here's where you take your stand, deity, death, resurrection. If that's true, whatever you say about the New Testament doesn't stop the gospel message.

And if Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity is. true. That's the one evidential point I'd like people want to hear here. If there's a resurrection, Christianity is true. That's how central the New Testament message is. Now, so let's say you're suffering. You're in a country, Nigeria, and things are going on, and last time I heard 300,000 Christians have been killed. It's a rough, rough place. What do you tell yourself and your family? You're the father of the family. What do you tell your wife and your children when? when the people that are trying to kill you are on their way. I think you've got to center on the gospel message.

And no matter what's going down, no matter how much I question, why does God letting this happen? No matter how much I say, hey, Psalm 91, what happened to those wings around me and what happened to all these things around us, but it's not going to touch us? You've got to remember, if Jesus is raised from the dead,

it didn't say, if you can figure it all out, you're going to heaven. That says, if Jesus was raised from the dead and you committed yourself to him, you're going to heaven. We can rest on the truth of Christianity from the resurrection alone. So when people come at me and he says errors, I just go, you know, I don't agree with you, but it doesn't follow. You haven't messed up the gospel at all. You can't disprove the deity, death, resurrection by saying there's errors in the gospels,

which I don't think there are anyway. So that's what I would have them concentrate on. Maybe take a three-by-five business card and put plasticize it or something. And I've got some around my study here. And I keep them up there. And there are things that people who have gone through suffering like Joseph Tan, who was the Eastern European pastor who was under, he used to tell his, his Russian guards, he said. He would say to them, hey, do you know something?

if you take my life, you're doing a favor for me because you're sending me to heaven faster. And that's what I'm doing all this for. So, I mean, you know, if you feel you got to do it, go for it. Because I'm heading for heaven. And he said he kept saying that for years and he left them alone. They were afraid to do anything to them. It's a really cute message.

But that's the centrality of the gospel message vis-a-vis suffering. It takes the force out of suffering. And even if I'm suffering, man, I know this going through. this and I have my down days and I think what am I going to say I literally say to myself like I tell people my students and others to say to themselves what does this have to do with the resurrection how does it change things for you and if Jesus is raised from the dead I've got nothing but pain as bad as that is I've got nothing but pain to worry about it doesn't mess with my message to live as Christ and to die is game to exactly to

believe that and build that in. I love that you're saying the gospel is the best defense, so to speak, against suffering and persecution, because that's the deepest truth of what Christ has done for us. It is. And it's what we most need for Christianity be true. Christianity is true regardless, but in our minds, that's what we most need to let it all hang together for us.

So apply this to doubt, because at the beginning you mentioned some of the doubt drove you to do the evidential research, but then there were some other areas that drove you into the theology and the practice. But not just the truth. How does the resurrection practically help somebody with emotional doubts? Well, that's a good question, because in the three books I've done in doubt, to me, emotional doubt, okay, I can give you stats. Emotional doubts by far the most common, 70 to 80%, About 10 to 15% factual, about 10 to 15% the last one, which I won't even start talking about, volitional doubt because it's a hard one.

But most of them are emotional. Most doubters are emotional daughters. I teach emotional doubters, the, well, Albert Ellis, the famous atheist master of cognitive therapy, you learn truths that counteract the suffering. Now, it's in the Bible. It's in Philippians 4. It's all over in Psalms and Proverbs. It's all over. We have to fill our mind with truth to counteract the garbage we're telling ourselves, and the pain often goes just as quickly as you apply that. You can get the pain to go in minutes.

Now, for the Christian, what's the counter? It's the gospel message, is the truth. What's the center of the gospel message? The resurrection. and Paul says, again, without it, the cross doesn't even make any difference. So it's the resurrection is the key. And if the resurrection is true, I'm going to center on the resurrection for emotional doubts. And I'm going to challenge Satan, whatever, the best friend or used to be best friend, who's tormenting me with the questions.

I remember mine in high school, can God make a rock so big you can't pick it up? Which today, those of us have studied, it's the dumbest question in the world. but when you're going through those things, you keep saying, I'm not sure what the, here's your homework assignment. I'm not sure what the resurrection has to do with this. But Habermas says this there somewhere. I'm going to keep digging until I find out what the resurrection says about this suffering. And I think every time you learn something, that's the many facet of diamond, you turn it different ways. And the resurrection shows maybe a different color like a diamond does.

It might be red. it might be green, it might be blue, you might glints of light. And you ask yourself, what does the resurrection say about this pain? And unpack it, because what's Paul say? Paul gives that long list of how many times he was beaten 40 minus one, how many he was shipwrecked three times, stoned and left for dead, and so on and so on. And his key throughout all of us, Philippians won 21 and 23.

And you got the Galatians verse that you mentioned. For me to live as Christ, to die as gain, he says he prefers to die and be with Christ, which is better. The Greek there is sometimes translated like this. I prefer to die and be with Christ, which is better, comma, far better. It's an emphatic, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go to heaven. I kind of want to go now.

So that assurance neutralizes the worst kind of pain, suffering, physical, emotional. You know, you get ready to get married and somebody jilt you. I mean, the worst kind of pain that a human can think about, the resurrection is the antidote. It's the painkiller. How's that? Amen. And I remember he gave this example like 20 years ago. You're talking about somebody who wakes up Monday.

They're like, I'm tired. and I'm not excited to be back at work today, got meetings like, oh, you know what, tonight's Monday night football. And it's like all of a sudden it shifts your thinking and it gives you an extra kind of kick in your steps, so to speak. And of course, in the big picture of life, that's a trivial thing. But it shows how changing our thinking literally changes our mood. That's the truth of the resurrection built into our lives on a regular basis,

transforms how we see the world. and experience, especially with emotional doubt. I love that. Tell me about the fear of death, if you were. There's a whole chapter on this. And I'd love you to weigh in how specific of the resurrection helps somebody practically with that. Yeah.

Okay, same thing. It's more a little more philosophical. But in that chapter, I mean, you can find echoes of Plato and all kinds of things. But what I'm arguing about there is the resurrection of body. And when you're going through the worst kind of that species of pain, again, I'm asking if the resurrection is true, what does it say about the human body? Well, I think if the resurrection is true, we're going to rise bodily,

not just as a wispy spirit like Plato believe, but we're going to rise as a body. resurrection demands bodily resurrection. Bodily resurrection tells us how we're going to enjoy life, eternal life. And Paul says in Philippians 1-23, to be there is better by far than anything we're doing here. But the key for Paul is, he says it in chapter three in Philippians, it's all because of the resurrection. 310, Philippians 310, that I may come to know him and the power of his resurrection. So Paul wants to use the resurrection for his own suffering, and we know Paul suffered like almost nobody in Christianity throughout time.

So every time we turn around, the resurrection is there. You know, you were mentioning Acts earlier. The resurrection is the key to Acts 1 through 5, Cornelius and 10, 13 in the Petrine sermon, 17 in the Erepagus where he's debating the philosophers, and the disciples, mostly Peter and then Paul, they're always pounding their opponents with the resurrection, the resurrection, the resurrection. How many times do they have to say it before we get the point? Our mutual friend Clay Jones,

who used to teach the resurrection class before I was at Talbot, talks about in his book on immortality, that really the heart of the question that Western philosophy and beyond have wrestled with is just the fear of death and the unknown. And the resurrection has a powerful response to that that, that of course is evidenced as well. But it solves arguably the leading question

that has driven the development of philosophy. And you unpack that. So tell us about this question. Philippians 310 talks about living in the power of the resurrection. What does that mean? And is that tied to overcoming, sin in our daily lives? Did the resurrection help that practically? Great question. Yes, because I have been thinking about that question the last few weeks because of my wife and the cancer,

and I've read some things on it. And the author says, take the truth of Christianity and apply it to either the sin, apply it to the pain, whatever it is. And so I've said to myself, here's my prayer lately. Lord, let me feel the Holy Spirit inside me, feels a bad word, but for her apologists, but let me know more about the Holy Spirit. Let me be infused with the Holy Spirit. Let me know what it does if I have the Holy Spirit, what that power does to whip this. And so therefore, I've been practicing on this one thing, one thought I'm working on. And every time the fear or whatever, it comes in my mind, I go, time out. What's the resurrection say about this?

And I bring the resurrection. And I'm telling you, Sean, I'm not saying I'm special or anything, but within about a week, that idea quit coming into my mind. It was like it was out. It was gone. It was like, okay, what's the new one I'm going to? Come on, what's the new one I'm going to struggle with? I don't want any more struggles.

But what I did was when I thought about that fear, The first thing I thought was, what does a resurrected Jesus say about this? And I said, well, I don't have to put up with this. I don't have to live this. I can change the subject right now because this is garbage. By the force of Jesus Christ, this is garbage, and I'm calling on him to get rid of this and let my mind go back to the gospel in the resurrection particular and stay there. So I've been doing this very thing to get rid of fear.

life with what we're going through with right now. That's amazing. I love that. How practical, just that discipline is writing it down and repeating it and owning it. And then it just becomes second nature. That discipline is so powerful, whether it's fear of death, whether it's sin that crops up in our life. You know, one of the last books I believe that Tim Keller wrote was on forgive, forgiving

other people. And of course, that's tied to the resurrection that we're forgiven by God. and called to forgive other people. And so I find it interesting that the last chapter, which possibly could be the last thing you write on the resurrection, maybe, is on heaven. Why did you end this volume there? Because volume one is evidence for the resurrection.

Volume two is refutations for non-biblical views. You get to volume four, and I'm doing theology and practice, heaven is the conclusion of the resurrection. Over and over again, the resurrection plus heaven puts everything right. Now, you know, I do a lot of things under your death experiences. And just like some people, if you're a creation specialist, and you go, well, I've got all these verses and all these arguments, but I also have intelligent design and fine-tuning. And they're more general, but they're bringing in a lot of evidence.

now I'm going to bring in my biblical stuff. I do the same thing with near-death experiences. Near-death experiences, to me, are almost irrefutable. And if there is an afterlife, now the problem with near-death experiences, you only have an afterlife. The strength of the resurrection is that you have eternal life. So the resurrection is better. But if I get a hint that there's already an afterlife,

that's going to be somewhere. And then if I know the resurrection's true, that opens the door to Jesus and the whole Christian message. And so you have to end with heaven. Well, first of all, the resurrection is tied to heaven. But you have to end with heaven because if the resurrection is the beginning of the story, heaven's the end of the story. And heaven itself is the resurrection.

To understand the resurrected Jesus. I tell my students, when the disciples reached out, okay, in the chosen, Thomas is a doubter. In real life, Peter's a doubter. He denied the Lord three times. And when Jesus appears in some of the best known songs like He's alive, Peter says, Even if you were alive, it doesn't mean a thing. Not for me. I'm a loser. I'll be lucky to go there. But when Jesus appears in a song, popular song, what's the first thing Peter says, he's alive, he's alive, he's alive, I'm forgiven, and heaven's gates are open.

wide. So there's a direct argument in the song from if resurrection then heaven. And I think that same argument is in the New Testament. So I start with resurrection. I end with heaven because there's a chain that

connects the two, an unbreakable chain between the two. And it's because of the resurrection that we have eternal life. And I just think it's the way to end the saga. So you're right, and I love this in the final chapter, quote, the gospel message of the deity, death, and resurrection of Jesus, along with the

application of apologetics, should be linked to our very existence. How do we do that? I mean, what does it look like to link that Jesus is God, they died, they rose from the grave? That's true. How do we actually link that to our very existence? Let's go back to your early question. How does the resurrection apply to emotional doubt? Emotional doubt, 70 to 80% of doubters, and what you have to do, whether it's

Albert Ellis, non-Christian application, whether it's Paul in Philippians chapter 4 or Psalms and Proverbs, it's always, stop thinking the garbage you're thinking, which is making you nervous, and start applying God's promises. Now, in Psalms and especially Proverbs, you're probably about 10 different. things you can apply. But if the resurrection is the best thing to apply, just like you concentrate on what Ellis calls good bees to counteract bad bees, you're doing it the wrong way, and that's why you take pills for anxiety and depression. I want to say, I am, tell my students all the time, I'm not only not against medicine for depression and anxiety, there's a lot of people I know that

I wish would take more of it. But you could, in, in, in, in, testing, cognitive truth can beat, can whip some of the things we take, you know, medicines. What do you apply to it? In Philippians 4, you apply truth. All right, what do you do with the resurrection? If you apply truth to get rid of the anxiety, the best truth is the resurrection and ask yourself, I mean, just give me an example. I can say, well, on my porch that day when God spoke to me, you know, make believe. said, what kind of a world is this? And I said, I don't know. I guess it's a kind of a world where your son died for a sense. And God says, well, good start. But then what? So, well, then there's a resurrection, which makes everything in the cross true. And God says, I like that. Okay, good. What are

going to do with this? And I say, well, if I have a resurrection, my wife is dying. Now, this is the wife of my four children and she did die. I got a card. It's a last card I put away when I put my cards away after she died. It said, and Sean, even today, it's hard for me to give this verse. It's hard for me to say it. It's so powerful. But when I opened the card, here's what it said. What are you going to do when you walk down the streets of heaven hand in hand with your deceased wife? what's it going to do walking down and I'm thinking that's the resurrection and if the resurrection lets me see her again and walk down the streets of heaven hand in hand I can wait there's that old

song that'll wait I can wait for heaven if it means seen her again but I'm only going to get there if I stay true to the Lord and I have the resurrection to me you can't get around it there's no better message to apply to suffering to doubt than heaven and that's the the resurrection. Gary, you've been working on the resurrection really since high school. I remember in our first interview you talked about how you were writing out arguments and responded to them, how you did a, I think like a thesis or a big paper on the resurrection. Like it's kind of consumed your life.

Are you finished writing on the resurrection? In a way, I hope so. Look at this. This just happened to be sitting here. Ben Shaw and I just did this little thing. for Racio Christi. It's a little 35-ish-page thing on the resurrection. So after we both said, I told the guy, no, I'm not going to write it.

He goes, will he ask Ben for me? Ben goes, I don't have the time. He goes, oh, come on, you guys. And he comes back to me a month later. Will you write it for me? I said, no. He said, would you ask Ben again for me? Anyway, we decided to do it together.

I'm just saying it could happen just that easily. and I could be doing something again. I think I've said what I need to say. Ben wants to, there looks like they're asking Ben to take these four volumes. Ben's a real fast synthesizer and typist. And he said he could get it together. He could do a 400-page book in two months because he's going to take, he's got the material, he's going to type it in.

That might be the next one. But we want that because you get rid of the German names and the Greek and the German and the French. You get rid of that stuff, and hopefully it's going to be applicable with that fourth volume, you know, to people hurting. And, Sean, you started this program by saying that in a way, this fourth volume was the most important one to you. I have had three other publishers tell me that, that volume four was better than the other three. And I said to them, literally, by the way, two of the other three had PhDs, I said to them, no way. Volume 1's got to be the key.

No, this one is. And one of them said to me, Sean, I won't tell his name. I'm not going to embarrass anybody, but he said, I was reading the manuscript. A few people like yourself have gotten the manuscript early. And he said, I was so convicted about applying the resurrection to these truths in volume four that I dropped down on my knees beside my bed and cried out to God to forgive me for not make it a better application of my own life. I thought, whoa, if that's what, if that's what volume four does, that's on God. That's on the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit brings those things about. But if volume four is that powerful to people, man, I'm sure glad I didn't stop the process without doing the last volume. Well, praise the Lord. I did enjoy it. Sometimes the older I get, I still love apologetics, but like the theological, biblical, practical truths just resonate with a heart in a way that apologetics often doesn't. And you've made this case and then you connect in the areas we've talked about. And what I love about is one of the things my dad always told me somewhat uniquely is he wrote a lot of books on relationships, why we had to be here to your kid, secretive loving,

but they wrote apologetics. And he'd always say to me, truth is meant to be experienced in relationships. And many times people just have truth. And many times people have relationships without showing that it's true. And the biblical formula is the two of them together. And I'm just thrilled as an apologist that you have this final volume tying these knots together. So if I heard you correctly, if an opportunity comes and you have time, you'd consider writing on the resurrection. But there's no like question or something that's bugging you.

It's like, I got to research that and write on a resurrection. You've said what you want to say. Yeah, Ben Shaw is, by the way, he's moving very quickly. He's got 25 publications since he's done his Ph.D. And he's being used all over the place. Hey, this is funny. I picked up a book recently that a friend of mine, which is a pretty heady book. And I'm flipping through it.

And Ben, they asked Ben to write a recommendation, so he's in there. But I'm not. They asked Ben to do it. I'm thinking, I love it. This is good. This is good. This is the end result. when you set your students up like Mike Lacona and Ben Shott.

I'm so proud of those guys and they're carrying resurrection on. So that's volume four too. Volume four, you can go from resurrection to discipleship. That's the radical chapter, you know, faith and radical commitment in the book. So if it's catching on and Mike and Ben and, They're really good friends now, and they're doing a book together. Ben and Mike. That's great.

Hey, guys. What about me? No, no, no. They're doing it. I think it's just wonderful. Well, I'm not formally one of your students, but I'm functionally one of your students that your influence on me is profound and deep and lasting. I remember the first time he took my call probably 25 years ago. I don't even know if you knew I was a McDowell or not. I had no idea, but you talked to me, you explained things to me, took time with me,

and your writings have just been really powerful. So is there, is there, you know, you're, how old are you, Gary? 70 some years old? 76. 76. Is there, uh,

catching up to your dad? He's got you by a decade, actually. He does. He's just turned 87. But my dad, I guess, I guess what I'm getting at is this has been your life. And to say that you're probably done, is there relief?

Is there sadness? Is it like, Sean, I've got other things going on my life. I don't have time to feel that. What does it feel like to commit your life to writing something and you give four volumes in a sense are like, I'm done? Yeah, it's none of the above. I'm not sad at all. I feel I've done my job. If I pick something up like this little thing or Ben does a 300-page synopsis of the first four volumes, so people, hey, I want that because it's going to be practical. If you're a pastor, or a layperson, who wants to read things like Schleyemacher? Albert Schweitzer. Who wants to read that stuff?

You want stuff for your sermons and everything else. So leave that stuff out. You leave a lot of book. And what am I getting a book of application? And right now, you started a program with it. Right now, ever since 1990, I've been growing more and more and more into it. Right now, my heart is application of this stuff. who can I take and influence people?

You know what, I'll give you, I don't know how many people I've told us to. If I do one more book and I don't feel like I need to do any more books, I've got too many, I'm thinking about a book on simple living, which would be that radical commitment part of the last half of that chapter. What does it mean to give everything to Jesus? Because I think, you know, I can be blamed with a lot of things for saying this,

but I think probably the American Christian's overall sin is materialism. And I think, I read an article years ago, it had a profound effect on me, and this was in the early 70s, and the guy said, when I study New Testament living and giving, he said, I can only think of two ways to live the Christian life. He said, they both have simple living at their core. But here's the difference. One says, I will work as many hours as I can, make as much as I can, live on as little as I can, and give the rest of the money to ministry. The other one says, how many hours do I have to work to be able to live? And I'll work only those number of hours. And the rest of my hours, I will contribute to Christian ministry. And those two ideas have had a profound. effect in my life. And I'm thinking, okay, so what am I doing? I think I'd rather quit worrying about other people and give to this or get involved in that or do this. You know, it's 76. Sometimes the knees and everything don't work the same way. But I would like to be hands and

feet for people who are hurting. I think that's the application of the resurrection. By the way, Galatians chapter 6 does that. And it says, if you're pursuing, doing this, it's eternal life. I mean, I think Christians have eternal life sewed up, but I want to know what I'm doing with everything. And where am I going to put this? Or am I going to put that? And who am I going to do this for? So I'm thinking about something on Simple Living. I'm really, really interest in that subject, how we live. Hey, here's one for you. I found that this is not hearsay. Someone gave it to me from his diary. But John Wesley said that if I die, and see, they said that when he took his offerings, when they gave him free will offerings, he immediately passed him out to the widows and the orphans

who they had come down and sit in the front row, and he passed all his money out. And he said, if I die and you find 20 pounds in my pocket, I've renounced the Lord. Oh, my goodness. John Wesley. I love that comment for simple living. He gave it all away immediately. If you want to have Gary write that book comment, and I'll have my team gather to these comments and we will send them over to you

if they're positive encouraging. Seriously, if that's something that somebody who spent his life on the resurrection and scholarship, thousands of pages you've published and want to hear this account, I'm intrigued by that. I would love it for what it's worth, but folks comment,

and let us know if that's something when you hear from Gary. One or two more, and I'll wrap it up. You might have answered this, and I hope it's okay if I asked this, but before while we were chatting, you made a statement like, you know, Sean, at this stage in my life, I have a whole new set of questions tied to the resurrection and in your life. What do you mean by that if you'd be okay, sharing? Yeah, well, right now with the situation with Eileen, my present wife,

most of the questions have to do with suffering. And so when a doctor friend of mine, MD, PhD, he's a neurologist. And he and I, by the way, did an article with Ben on what do medical doctors say about crucifixion? And it was published in the Baylor Medical Journal. Well, this guy's a good scholar. And he said, when I'm going around all the hospitals, I'm in like children's hospitals, and I'm seeing how little children are suffering. He said, I've got to think about what's this due to my view of God.

And I'm thinking, oh, I've got to have a talk with this guy. He wonders, how do you put, like, say, Psalm 22, Psalm 91. How do you put those things together with the suffering we see in, you know, where there's tidal waves and war and the California fires and, and, and, you know, Ukraine and everything else, it's hard to say the God who sees all and what's the purpose with the suffering. But I do say this, Sean, I still say this to my students. It sounds so simple, but someone tell me why it's wrong. I'll say, I don't know why it's happening. And I don't know why God lets it happen. But I'm not God. I don't have to answer this question. But if I

believe in the resurrection, guess what? Someday I'm going to take a post-grad course with Paul. or I'm going to take a post-grad course or somebody else. I'm not going to find out what it's out there. And you know what? I'll tell people it's going to take God about one sentence to tell me, do you know why that happened in Ukraine? Let me tell you, it's this. And after one sentence, I think, wow,

I'm sure glad I didn't walk away for Christianity for that reason when it's that easy to answer it. I just think there's ways to make these applications. So for me, the big issue right now is, suffering and what's the resurrection say and right now my answer is i don't know why much of suffering occurs but i do know the resurrection and if the resurrection happened christianity's true heaven happens and i've got eternity to explore this question amen that's great i want to hear people i want to make sure people hear you saying i believe this is true i have the evidence for it

I don't have any questions about that. And I'm confident God has a reason. I don't know it. And I can live with these questions and express these questions. This is a part of my life at 76 years old. A lot of people think if I read one more of Gary's books, I have it all figure I won't have questions anymore. And you're saying to that person what?

You're always going to have questions. The question is, how do you put your questions in order? where does the line of questions start and where does the line of questions end and to me it ends with the truth of the resurrection and the truth of heaven if there's eternal life here's the key there are answers that's not the same as me having to know the answer it's a philosophical problem there may be answers but that doesn't mean gary habermas knows the answers but i can trust god who's omnipotent omniscient omniscient under present omnibenevolent i can trust i can trust you that he has the answer. Well, isn't that just a little bit too gullible? Not when the resurrection's true. When there's no resurrection, okay, great, it's gullible. But if he was raised from the dead, please refute my resurrection argument or tell me why I shouldn't trust the God who raised his son from the dead. To me, the resurrection is intimately connected with all these things. And I'll say, maybe you're pushing me to this point. We can live with,

questions. Nobody should lie to themselves and say, unless my life looks like the smooth cement on the front of my house with nobody putting their initials in it, unless I get everything worked out, I can't be a good Christian. That's baloney. Paul live with questions. Paul tells you that. You know, in 2 Corinthians, he says, I live with these questions and they tear me up, but I don't despair. I don't lose it. It's just before he, and you know where, as soon as he says that, What did you say to the Corinthians? He says, I'm suffering from these questions, but you and I, it's communal resurrection. He says, you and I will be raised together and sit with Christ in heaven. And what follows that passage? The last three verses of 2 Corinthians 4, which is C.S. Lewis's

the weight of glory, his famous sermon. Paul goes right to that application for heaven. So Paul says, yeah, I'm suffering. I'm suffering. He obviously doesn't have it worked out. But he says, Corinthians, you and I are going to be raised together and sit in heaven. And here comes those. The last three verses of 2 Corinthians 4 is, I don't know, they may be in those beautiful, most beautiful verses in the Bible. I love them.

Gary, I'm grateful for you, brother. Thanks for your honesty and vulnerability on this podcast. And just my heart goes out to you with your wife just playing. God's healing and peace and blessing and guidance to the doctors and beyond and just that you could get some rest. I know you said you're tired and amidst all that that you'd come on and share about your life and be open, not just with me, but with our viewers. It means a ton.

I do love Volume 4 when you connect it to theology and practice, especially for apologies. I think for anybody to step outside of its true defendant. Let's live it. and let's connect it to Christian practice is really powerful. And I think a part of our greatest testimony, I'm convinced we can give an evidence for resurrection, but if our lives don't reflect it and we're not living in that power, it's probably going to fall on deaf ears. And I think that's where you're challenging people too. Love you, brother.

Thanks so much for coming on, and we'll catch up soon. Thank you, Sean. I love the interview. I've been looking forward to it for a long time. Thanks for what you do, and thanks for your questions. You betcha. Thank you. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet.

And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. The content we feed our minds will eventually show up in our lives. If we feed our minds

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