11 Months as a POW in North Korea | Steven Woelk
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03:02Yeah, absolutely.Hey, folks, welcome to the team house.I'm Jack McPhee.And we are here with today's guest, Stephen Wolk.He is the author of Pig Fat Soup, which is a memoir about primarily his time on the USS Pueblo and an incident that has been largely forgotten by American history.I don't think most kids get taught about this in high school.They should.the Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in 1968 and Stephen was held as a prisoner.
03:33I went through a terrible ordeal in prisoner of war camps in North Korea before being repatriated to the United States.And it's an incredible story.So Stephen, thank you for joining us on the podcast today and thank you for writing your memoir.Thank you for the opportunity.So Stephen, let's start at the time.the beginning you know your book has some pretty interesting information about you know yourupbringing and how you joined the navy let's talk a little bit about that yeah i didn't uh there'sthree of us uh my age we we really didn't want to be drafted so we thought you know the navy
04:16be the best way to go so we joined right out of high school i think it was october of that thatyear we went to boot camp in san diego and we were we were all 18 just turning19, you know, and eager, eager to get to going, I guess.But we, when we, of course, we went through the boot camp and then our,my first duty station was the Pueblo in Bremer and Washington.And that's when it kind of all started for me, you know, the Pueblo was thenwas being retrofitted to house 30 communication technicians for our mission,which was spying out of a crew of 83 total.
05:11The rest of us ran a ship.30 communication technicians took care of them.They were the spooks.They took care of the surveillance.And what was your job on the point?Well, being right out of boot camp,I wasn't given a school.So, you know, I was at the mercy of whatever the Navy wanted to hand me.
05:33And I wanted to be electricians, mate.That position was already taken.So just standing engine room watches basically until something come along later on,which it did right before we were captured intercommunication technician.I might have went in that direction, but that didn't happen.Tell us a little bit then about the Pueblo's mission.and that deployment that you went on with the ship?What was the mission?
06:05Yes.We were, of course, none of us regular guys knew our mission at all.We were just along for the ride.We didn't associate with the communication text that much.And, of course, they wouldn't indulge what they were up to anyway.So we really didn't know.You know, until we were setting off a coast of some country, I didn't have any idea.And then, of course, when the ships come up and the flags or flown, we understood where we were.
06:47Because of the compartmentalization of this intelligence program, you know, guys like you weren't read on to, you know, I guess the bigger picture or the larger mission.No. No.And I think there's a little bit of a backstory that I'd like to ask you about kind of leading up to the event, the attack on the Pueblo.The Blue House raid and also the USS Liberty, you point out in your book, happened just seven months prior to the Pueblo being captured.And all these things are sort of interrelated in an interesting way.And I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that.Yeah, the Blue House raid, of course, is a raid to assassinate the president of South Korea.I don't remember how many guys came across the border, but they got right up close to their, the Blue House, it's called, or the president stays before they were stopped.
07:51it is kind of a theory that that may be why North Korea come after us.You know, it was payback.We were sitting out there all alone and no help inside.So we were easy pickings for them.But, yeah, it sure seems like the Blue House raid,had a lot of influence on us being captured, being taken, seized.The idea being maybe, or theoretically being that the North Koreans feared that the United States would retaliate for the Blue House raid,and so they wanted to take some American hostages.
08:43Yeah, yeah, yeah.That part was written up by my co-author, Robert Lofthausen.Yeah, I didn't really deal into that.All the specifics on it.But there is, he really explains it well in the book, you know,and how they came across and how many of it wereand the one that did survive and gave the Army a lot of information,you know, on how that was all set up.
09:21And where they came across and the whole mission, basically, and how it failed.And there's also a mention of the USS Liberty and it being attacked about seven months prior.And some thought that that may have informed what the North Koreans did.You know, if nothing else, the Navy should have kind of realized that these type ships are vulnerable.And the Liberty, they had to firepower.You know, they had the capabilities. We didn't.So, you know, that whole program, it really needed to be looked at a lot closer than what it was.There was a ship USS Banner.
10:12It had been out on a mission, same type ship as the Pueblo and also the Palm Beach.There's three, three ships in the banner class.And the banner, it was out on station and really didn't have any problems, you know.You get harassed from the Russians, you get harassed from the Chinese,but there was really no harassment from the North Koreans as far as I heard anyway.So, you know, that program should have been looked at a lot closer on the assignments or on the mission.that we were set out to do.And just to emphasize that, the Pueblo was unarmed, you're saying,
10:58did crew members have small arms?Was there even that?There was small arms.I think there's a couple 30-calibur submachine guns and some hand guns, you know.But the main gun is a 50-calorie machine gun.Had two of them, one was stored below, as far as I know.The other one was mounted on handrail with no arm-on-arm.around it. It was wintertime, so there was a canvas on it and it was covered with ice.
11:27Wow. So, you know, to get to something like that, you had to carry your vandalier of ammunitionand over your shoulder across 20 feet of open deck, up an eight foot ladder, across anothersix feet to the 50 caliber and take off the canvas and the, you know,and load it and while you're under fire.Right.It's suicide.Suicide mission.Could you walk us through the day of the attack on the Pueblo?
12:06Kind of what you were doing that, you know, early in the day going about your duties to when you started to realize something was wrong?You know, we noticed a North Korean trawler the day before and really didn't think that much about it.But of course, we had radio silence and really wasn't talking to anybody from my understanding.And then the next day, the ship started coming in, the plane started coming in.And of course, you don't jump to conclusions right off the bat.And Booker was told before we ever left, you know, don't go out there and start World War III in North Korea.you know, don't show any signs of atrocity.So you don't just jump out there and man the machine gun
13:03just because they're coming up and act like they're threatening you.You don't know.But I was off duty at the time,and there was several of us looking out the forward hatchhad them coming in.So, you know, I saw the flag and saw the soldiers on board with their AK-47s all drawn and ready.And then Commander Booker ordered everybody, stay inside, don't shut all the hatches anddon't let them know how many people we have on board, basically.
13:45And then shortly after that, the General Quarters was called, and I went to my Generalquarter station, which was the auxiliary engine room.And we should point out here also that the Pueblo at this time is in international waters.Whatever the legal, it's like 20 miles off the coast or something like that, right?I, you know, I've heard several different things.I've heard it's 12 mile and we were more than 14 miles off the coast.And to my knowledge and to the guys that I know who are.in the pilot house and we were never in their lot of hers. We knew better than that.
14:27What happened after you got assigned to general quarters?Went down to the auxiliary engine room. My best friend was down to Dwayne Hodges.We just was watching the generator that supplies power to the sod hut, which isis where the communication texts are all located and all the equipment.And after down there, we couldn't hear anything.You know, the noise of the engine just didn't know what was going on.We could hear some plinking on the side of the ship,but didn't put two and two together until later on,
15:10which machine gun fire.But we were called up, or Dwayne was called up individuallyto help in the destruction of,top secret and classified documents with two other guys.And once he was out of there,I was actually replaced by another engineman,and I went up to the same place Dwayne was.So there was four of us trying to destroy just tons of documents
15:42the best way we could.So that's my time on general quarter.was very short. Then it was ordered to go up and start in the destruction of the materials.And you write about in the book how the facilities and the resources that you guys had on the shipfor the destruction of classified material was wholly inadequate, that there was like one incinerator,but it wasn't big enough or even close to big enough to do the job?No, no. We, and we were using the,a standard government trash cans in the metal trash cans and of course in order to get any
16:26type of paper to burn you have to tear it up and you can't just pile it up and write it on fire andso it's very time-consuming and like I said we had mounds of it to destroy so got to thepoint we're just starting fires all over the ship on a deck inside interior deck to just try to getof what we could. Of course, the smoke was unbearable. I was sitting in front of the captain'ssafe, and I was pulling documents out of it, so I was kind of by myself there, an adjacent corridorfrom the rest of them. And what I'd pull out of there, I just handed the other three to startburning it and disderminate it. There were weighted bags that was filled as much as they could,you know, and try to jettison oversight, over the side.
17:21But when you're under fire, that's really difficult to do.I think there's, from what I was told,there's a couple of them that were thrown overboard,but very little was destroyed.And so as you're trying to destroy these documents,what's going on outside as the North Koreans approach the Pueblo?Well, Buker was trying to stall for time.they through the signal flags, you know, he to, for boarding party and Booker, you know,
17:57no thanks, we're leaving the area.And so we tried to take off, you know, and ever attempt we tried to take off, they'd fireat us.And then it got to the point, you know, he stopped again, try to give us time to get rid of whatwe could and then they'd start firing on us again.They just riddled the pilot house with the machine gun fire and the 57 millimeter roundstrying to disable the ship that way.It appears that they took aim on our area with the 57 millimeter round.
18:36They've come through the side of ship or the four of us were working.We opened up a hatch so the smoke could get out, you know,I don't know whether they were aiming in that area or what, but yeah, they really, they were firing from all sides.And of course, we had the two Russian migs overhead, too, that were threatening.But it was, of course, all we could hear was just, like I said, the plinking of the machine gun fire on the side of the ship.And we kind of thought we were safe.had the ship'smetal side to protect us
19:16andno big dealthat the machine gun fire wasn't penetratingjust to clarifydid you or do you knowwere the migs being flown by actual Russiansor were they Russian migs flown by North Koreans?I have no idea that's probably written up
19:35in the in the books somewherewhen it whenever all the documents were declassiesclassified in Washington, there was a couple really good books that came out about, you know,what the government did, what they did do, and NSA did and didn't do, and Navy, you know,and, and, and, but there's a lot of information there, and, but I don't know whether I ever knew,whether there's Russian or North Korean, or Chinese. Yeah, right. And you and I, I believe, from what Iread in the book, there was three of you total who were hurt pretty substantially.How did these injuries come about? I mean, was this while you were in the pilot house getting
20:19shot up by machine gun fire? No, it really wasn't in the pilot house. We were on a main deckjust outside the officer's wardroom and our captain's quarters. Yeah, we were,the other three, they were in a short passage way. And, and, um,a 57 millimeter came through the side of the ship and exploded.They, Dwayne Hodges, he caught a majority of the blast.He must have been right against the side of the ship.We had two Marine Marines on board.One of them was with us. They're trying to destroy material too.
21:03He was wounded in the leg.Shrapnel came up the passageway and caught me in the waist.blew me over backwards.The horrendous blasts, you know, and smoke and fire.The third guy, he had flash burns up and down his leg.I couldn't move from my waist down.People were kind of tripping over me up and down the corridor or passageway.said I pulled myself around to the officer's mess and got out of the way.
21:42I could pull myself, but I couldn't walk.I couldn't get up or crawl.But we were on the main deck.We weren't out up in the pilot house.What happened after you pulled yourself into the officer's mess?It wasn't too long after that that our ships corpsmen, Doc Baldry,and she brought Dwayne.Duane's body around and put him just outside the door.
22:16And I was on the inside.And Doc, he got in between Duane and I.And he tried to comfort Dwayne as much as he could,you know, with what little supplies we had on boardas far as bandages and morphine.I got one seret of morphine to ease my pain.And, of course, Duane, he needed all he could get.He probably didn't survive more on a matter of men as bad as he was wanted.
22:50But the doc did the best he could, you know, trying to patch me up.And he told me later, you know, what saved my life as far as not bleeding to get to death.I was laying on my bandages, which helps stop the blood.But then after they boarded us, they came on board, they took bodies away from us or from me.So I was there by myself.And there was a long period of time that before Korean Guard came in, and they put me up on the dining table.And so I was there for, I don't know how long, but it was a long period of time before I was ever taken off the ship.Did the North Koreans at this point attempt to communicate with you at all?
23:53No. No, there was, if the officer that was with them spoke English, he did not speak English to me.It was just mainly the guards that were, they'd stick their head in the door, but that was basically,Yeah, they'd take watches and rings and whatever.They were after the trinkets more than, I think, what they really realized they had that they just wanted.Right.I think didn't you say they took your watch, but they left your high school ring?Yeah, yeah, surprisingly.They took it, and then they gave it back to me.
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29:33They apparently put a pilot on board and pilot us into.the dock into the harbor.So when we dock, I don't know.You know, there's only one small hatch in a wardroom,and I couldn't see out, so I had no idea what was going on.I could just hear the roar of the main engine.And it was a long period of time.There was no foot traffic up and down corridors other than the North Koreans.
30:07And then all of a sudden they came in,and wrap me up in a plastic table cloththat was on top of the tableand pretty much drove me off of the tableand onto the deck.And I really thought they was gonna throw me overboard.I didn't know we had docked.So a lot goes through your mind
30:27in a matter of a 15 seconds of going up a corridor, you know.And you know about how far it isto the outside and, and,and where the waters at and when they put their foot on the gangplank,I recognized it and knew, you know, we were docked somewhere.And then they drug me across to a and to a waiting bus.Apparently, everybody had been taken off and were either on the bus.I was put on or another bus.
31:11They put me between the seats on a stretcher.I could look out and we were all blindfolded and our hands were tied.So we really couldn't see what was going on.But you could you could, you could twist around and look through your blindfold, you know.And I could see a bunch of the crewmen and they were sitting beside me.and then we took off then.And I really think I was probably the last one to leave Bledlo.Because when I got on the bus, it took off.
31:49Where did they take you initially?We went to a train.Then we'd spent the night on a train or rest of the night on a trainthrough our first place, which was a dingy dark room.They put the three of us wounded together with another crewman,which why they didn't give us the corpsmen, I don't know,but our help was a fellow crewman who the only experience he had in first aid was through Boy Scouts.But he did a tremendous job of taking care of us.
32:33and the other two were, you know, they could help to, as far as me, I couldn't, I couldn't, like I said, I couldn't move from the waist down.And so I was pretty much helpless.But, yeah, it was a terrible, dirty, dark, cold room for the four of us.And we just didn't know what was going on.Then the next day we were taken to another building, which really wasn't any better.Still dirty floors and just a single light bulb, dim light hanging down from the ceiling.But this is where after 10 days, they started to attend to our homes.But they didn't really do anything for us up until that point.
33:27Did you guys were dealing with like infection and things like that after I imagine 10, 12 days?Yes.Yes.After that many days, you know, and you can just tell by the stench in the room, you know, it was just, it was almost unbearable for us.But we were, you know, around at 24-7.But the guards, they'd come in and put a bandana around their face so they didn't have to smell.They didn't bother us that much because the odor we were putting off.But yeah, the infection had to be setting in pretty bad.
34:03And I know if they hadn't started tending to us, I was probably going to be the next one to die.And it was that bad.Was it like a North Korean medic or like at what point was it that you actually got transported to the hospital to receive, you know, proper medical care?Well, I went through surgery first.They did the surgery right during that second place we were taken to.They come on, come in there one night and pull, wrap me up in that plastic tablecloth again.I've been on it since I left the ship and went into this little room.It almost looked like a kitchen.
34:52I had cabinets on the wall and just wasn't that bigger room.was not set up for surgery that I recall at all.They put me on a table and tied my legs down,and there was a doctor there.He had a mask on.There was nurses too and guards.Of course, I was tied.I still tied, my legs were tied together.
35:19Well, at that point, they untied my legs,but my arms and my hands were still tied togetherand still blood.line folded and they stripped me in my clothes and they started removing shrapnel and bone fragmentsand infection you know and they I ended up they only have just a very small amount of shrapneland there's a couple pieces went through me one of them took out my rightpubic bone took out half of it and took out half my tailbone the same time it uh it had my testiclesthe shrapnel damage my testicles they were also removed surgically at the same time and uh
36:13but all this was done without any anesthetic they just they just started cutting away with the scissorsand good god it was just the only way i could stand and i just screamedas loud as I could, you know, I never did pass out as far as I know, because I can, I can stillremember the pain and, and probably, you know, the operation probably didn't last 10 minutes,but it felt like it was hours in there. And they took me back to the room and I just passed out.I don't remember the rest of the night, but then they took the Marine in there.And he had a piece of shrap and then he entered a thigh about to decide.of a silver dollar and a quarter inch thick
36:58and they just took some forceups and jerked it outand no anestheticand, you know, sutured him upand just like they sutured me up with what looked likekite string or thestring that you seein the ties up meat, you know,white, cord like
37:18that was their suture material.It was effective, I guess.It's like Dr. Frankenstein stuff, though.Yeah, yeah.But, you know, you think the Korean people, more likely,that's the type of medical treatment they would get to.Now, the military, they probably, I'm sure they treat them a lot better.And, of course, their officers, they're treated like get whatever they want,
37:55I suppose,as they're loyal.But, you know, I feel for the American, or not the American, the Korean people have to liveunder those conditions.That's just terrible.Yeah.I'm sure you're right that they were treating you with the same materials and the same resourcesthat they would have had for their own people.
38:17Yeah.So you wake up the next day and where are you guys transported to next next?Well, after the fourth day, I wasn't getting any better.So that's when they came in, they wrapped me in a blanket.I had no high chico we were going.But this was just me that was leaving, not anybody else.They took me out of the building.I mean, it was extremely cold in February, actually.
38:55actually and it's 14 days after we were seized threw me in the back of a jeep laying in the backblindfolded again I couldn't see it I don't know it was it was dark I could see the stars but they took me tothe North Korean Hospital there I'd spend 44 days recouping and by the end of the 44 daysI was able to walk across the room, you know, but that was about it.It took me a long time to recoup.Could you tell us a bit about the North Korean doctor?Because it sounds like he's sort of the first person, first North Korean that you had some semblance of a relationship with.Yeah.
39:44Yeah, you know, he seemed to always have a smile on his face.Of course, he wore a mask all the time, and I couldn't understand a word he's saying, of course.And the only time they would bring in an interpreter is when they wanted something.So that was very rarely they'd come in with an interpreter.her. So it was, you know, by showing or sign language or whatever to get it pointed across what he was going to do or what, one time, I jump ahead and one time they brought in. I was getting daily injections and one day they came in with a vial of what looked like, an acillant to me, the milky-looking,substance in a vial and I'm an allergic to pen to cell ones. It took me some doing to convincethem that I can't take that and they didn't give it to me. But no, he seemed to be an okay,okay guy and I'm sure he was probably the one that operated on me too, but you know,
41:02you can only do what you allowed to do. Right. So I can't fault him for that.It wasn't him.It's the regime.But, no, the nurses,now that's another story.I'm sure if they were left alone with me long enough,they just as soon cut my throat.The only time they would laugh or giggle was,
41:32I'm sure that there was laughing at me for some reason,you know, not.But it was probably my injuries.They're laughing about that, but, you know, they, they showed no remorse whatsoever towards me.They were scary.Yeah, because of the brainwashing, the propaganda that they get doctrinated with.Absolutely.From the time they're able to comprehend, it's just brainwashed into them.
42:09hate Americans, kill Americans.You know, their army's the best.Their economy's the best.Everything they do is better than anywhere else in the world.Yeah.You know, you're not going to take that from their mind very easily.No coup is going to go in there and change the minds of the whole population.that's not going to happen.
42:42Kim Il-sung single-handedly won the Korean War on their behalf.Yeah, yeah, yeah.You mentioned that they would bring an interpreter when they want something from you.There was that, they did take that opportunity while you were in the hospital, right,to make a propaganda film and put that document in front of you.Yes, yes.I didn't realize what the crew had won.went through, of course I had no idea what any of the crew went through until after I went back.
43:18But they wanted me to sign this document and I signed it because I saw all my friends' signatures on there and recognized their signature and saw it ahead and signed it.But, yeah, like I said, when they want something, they'll bringcameras in and they'll bring potted plants in and set them there and magazines and everythingthrow it out there and they might throw fruit some apples in front of you, you know, like they'refresh cigarettes or something that just all show and then when it's all over, it's all takenaway.And with this letter, the, you know, so-called confession that you were in North Korean waters andbeing aggressive or such and such.
44:13Yeah, they, of course, the crew didn't want anything to do with it.You know, Commander Booker absolutely refused to sign.And, of course, they started beating on the crew tremendously.Commander Booker, they nearly beat him to death, trying to get him to sign.and it just got to the point where you can only take so much,but when they come in and tell you know,we're going to start killing your crew the youngest first.That, from what I understand, that pretty much did it.
44:57He went ahead and signed then and instructed the crew to do the same.Yeah, it's not worth dying over.Right, right.And when you were eventually discharged from the hospital, was that when you were brought to what was like an actual POW camp?Well, it was a three-story building. It was better than the other two by far.It was still, you know, dirty walls and dirty floors and a single light bulb from the ceiling.But it was a, the hallways were like a marble, look.or and the walls.
45:43It was like, there was also a large soccer field outside.So it was almost like a sports complexfor visiting teams, maybe from other nations.So there was individual rooms.We were put eight to a room at that time.With eight beds and a little nightstandand a table in the middle of the roomthe room for art playing or whatever, you know, to kind of take a hard time during the days
46:21when they weren't beaten on us. But it was better. Of course, you're still restricted that youcan't do anything. I mean, you have to watch what you say, watch what you do.you're just under constant watch basically.You have to really be careful.We were allowed to go outside about 15, 20 minutes a day,one of the weather permitted out on the soccer field.Some of the guys, they played touch football,and some they had a soccer, not soccer, volleyball,
47:06some played volleyball.But a lot of guys just kind of walked around and talked.you know and that's when we could converse amongst each other and kind of come up with different waysto be a real pain in their ass somehow and which we did we did we made it hard on them at timeswhat were some of the like techniques of like passive resistance that you know you and thecrew members enacted in the camp yeah it uh sarcasm went right over their head you you could uhcommander bucker was just so good at uh writing up or something or doing speeches you know and trying tosay what they wanted him to say but yeah it meant something else just for instance like uh i think
48:05i think it's the french word it's it's peon and uhone of the phrases Bukhard used in one of the speeches, you know,Pian, the North Koreans, a peon Kim Il-Song, you know,and it went right over their head, you know.It's, they interpreted us as being,as praising them, praising him.That was kind of, even little things like that he,he'd come up with.
48:35And when he would,address us in group meetings, you know, is sometimes so hard to keep us straight face some of thecomments he made. Like I said, sarcasm just went with her head. The censored letters that we wereforced to write home, a lot of little things were put in there like tell Uncle Joe hi. He,Uncle Gilmaia died 20 years.before ororor
49:10or tell AuntJemima Highyou knowor justthings that theycould notverify but theU.S.
49:19families would knowthe governmentwould knowthat this isn't right.Right.That you're beingheld under duressand these
49:27confessions arecoming out of tortureand so forth.Right.Right.You guys alsocame up witha funny
49:37code signalflipping the bird in thepropaganda photographsthat they took of you.Yeah, that was ourbiggest highlight,I guess.Somebody noticed one of the
49:55propagandafilms they showed usthat theya bystander was given the cameramana finger.And we thought, yeah, if he can do that,maybe we can do it too.So the word God spreads, you know, that try using it and we started using it in the photographs.
50:16And I suppose every one of the group photographs of room photograph,where they've taken eight of us at a time in photograph,somebody in that photograph was given a finger.So it was well documented.And it went right over their head.They had no idea what it meant.And the suspicion got the best of them one timeand asked what it meant.
50:50And somebody told me, it was a Hawaii and good luck sign.You know, it's no big deal.And then some energetic journalists in the USdecided to, you know,tell the world what it meant.And that's when all hell broke loose on us over there.It got pretty bad real quick.And this...
51:21To the guys that...Go ahead.I was just going to say, this, I mean,famously happened in the Hanoi Hilton as well.And there's that photograph of,I believe it was a news week,where the guy given an American POW giving two middlefingers and to censor it in the American press, they like blurted out and it looked like
51:40his, you know, I remember a story where like his niece or his daughter thought that theVietnamese had chopped off his fingers.He's like, no, that's not.Oh, I hadn't heard that.Yeah, yeah.But, so tell us about this, the retaliation that you guys were subjected to when the NorthKoreans found out about this.they put before there's eight of us to a room then he put 10 of us in a room 10 beds and 10 chairs were put at the end of the each a chair was put at the end of each bed where we would set with our chin down on our breath or chest you know on our hands on our knees and have to look straight down all
52:30day long unless we went to the bathroom or went to eat. And the guard, there was just enough room for theguard to come in between us, between our knees. And when you're looking down like that, you can't,you can't see him coming. And he would just come in and knock somebody out of their chair. And with eitherhe's calloused hands from martial arts, I mean, their hands, I got hit in the neck andhis hand just felt like a tube before hitting me.They were like chop, chop you in the neck.Yeah, yeah.And the rifle butchie, you know,
53:11or just hit you with their fist,knock you out of the chair.And what they couldn't understand is we would get right back upand get set right back in a chair.We feared if we laid on the floor,they'd kick the crap out of us, you know.and we didn't, none of us wanted that.And some of us got it anyway, but our room, you know,
53:35they knocked us out of the chair,we just get right back up and sit back down.But what's really nerving about that whole deal was,you'd be in your room and the doors were always open,open to all the rooms.And of course, we couldn't see any other rooms,but we could hear what was going on.You could hear chairs being thrown across the room and screams and hollers and slaps like people were getting hit.
54:06And you don't know whether they've got a room just set up across the hall that's empty and they're doing that themselves or they're doing it to the rest of the crew.Well, most of it was done on the rest of the crew, especially to the guys that were given the finger.They'd come down on hard on them and come down on Hardin, Commander Booker, too, for letting me.go.So it was hell weekfor about a week.It lasted about a week.And I think you wrote that that was
54:40probably the worst beating you tookthe entire time you were there.It was for me.Yeah.I can't answer that for the rest of the guysbecause I don't know what they went throughon the confession letter.But that was for me.
54:56It's something Iwanted to ask you about was, you know, it's somewhat famous or infamous, I suppose, thatAmerican POWs during the Korean War were subjected to communist propaganda and indoctrinationsessions and things like that. I want to ask, did the North Koreans ever attempt that with youguys? No, they really didn't. They provided magazines. You know, they were heavily anti-American and again how great they were and but no there was no attempt to try to convince us youknow to to come over to their side and we knew better than that and no there wasn't any of thatThere wasn't any type of brain washing as far as I know on anybody.
56:02That's interesting.And throughout this ordeal, I'm kind of curious how your captain, how the commander and other leaders amongst you, amongst the prisoners,what did they do to kind of like step up and show leadership and kind of keep morale up amongst the crew during this time?Well, Commander Booker was the commander.He was the one that was in charge.There was the senior officer in each room was in charge of the room.So for the rooms carried up, the non-commissioned officer, he'd get whacked.You know, but the officers were kept.
56:55in solitary confinement by themselves.Each had their own room.Commander Booker had his own room.So it was kind of one-on-one with them.But, you know, when we'd eat,there'd be, they'd take several rooms at a time.And we were able to converse a little bit.And if one of the crewmen
57:24was in contact with Commander Booker, messages were distributed that way, you know, or out on a,when we'd go outside, you know, conversations would be what he wants or what's going on, what heknows or this is happening, you know, and so he kept us informed that way.but it was it was and i don't recall if they ever took the guys that were in charge in individualrooms and met with him i i don't know i don't remember if they did that or not did uh did uh youever plan uh for escape at any point during this we did in our in our room um there was aa couple guys that was ready to go.We had the two Marines in our room,
58:25and I'm sure they would take off at a heartbeat.But we were kind of a disadvantage beating in Pyongyangand white guys and getting an outfit.Yeah.We kind of stood out.A little bit, yeah.But it would have been nearly impossible.We started the only thing that we could take as far as food was dried squid and we I don't know how many times we got to have.
59:00I thought I only remember one time and we restored what we could under the floor.We found a loose board in the floor and we'd put whatever we could down underneath there, you know, the story.If the time would come that we would try to get somesomebody out. But it would have been, it would have been pretty much impossible. That is a lot of,a lot of miles to cover. Yeah, I was going to ask, did you have any sort of sense of where this campwas actually located in North Korea? Like how far from Pyongong, how far from the DMZ? Did youhave any sense of that at the time? The magazines that they gave us, one of them had a monument of aflying horse. And if I remember right, out of our window, way off in the distance, we could see
59:53that monument. Interesting. So we kind of had an idea we were in, in the city in Pyongyang,and those guys, you know, that's more than me, they could figure out what direction to go,I suppose, from that. But, yeah, that was an indicator of least what city where we're in.Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it would be quite a track.to get to South Korea.Yeah. Yeah. Unless you had somebody, you know, watching us and of course, we had no way of knowinganybody was watching us from the South. So we would have had any way of contacting anybodyto help us in any way of getting out.
01:00:46So, yeah, it would have been pretty much, we would have been on our own.You did find out in retrospect, right, way down the line that you write in your book that you believe the American government had some intelligence source watching you guys.When the Hell Week stopped, like I said, it stopped all at once.and there was no reason for them to do that.It wouldn't have surprised any of usthat they would have killed several of us.And I thought over the years,and I've asked several of the other crew,
01:01:33and you think somebody was really therepossibly watching over us, you know,that they knew the condition we were inand when Hell Week really got to go and the word got out,you better get them out of there and get them out of there now.And we believe that that kind of hurried up things in the U.S.to get something done, get us out.And when it stopped, Hell Week stopped, they started cleaning us up,
01:02:05gave us fresh clothes.That happened once before in October.And we found out afterwards that the negotiations were going pretty good and there possibly would have been a release then, but that fell through if that ever was the case.But anyway, we were cleaned up and then we were put on buses and there's paper covering over the bus.Some guys say we were on a train and then we're on a bus.I just remember the bus right.Because so many things are going through your mind.Everything's kind of normal.
01:02:46You know, you get through this normal routine for about eight months or so.And then 10 days come along, you're getting the crap beat out of you.And then all of a sudden the stops your mind's in a, you know, in a days.You just, you don't know what to expect.You don't know how to react.And so we're all kind of in a,what's going on or are they dressing us up to execute us or are possibly going across the borderor maybe they're moving us north further from the DMZ you know we didn't know but anyway
01:03:31come to find out we we we ended up at the 38th parallel the bridge and no return to bereleased. Tell us about that moment crossing the bridge and sort of how that interaction tookplace. Well, Booker come on the bus and said, when you're walking across, don't look back,don't say anything. You know, you got the rest of your crew behind you. Don't screw it up for them.And it could have. I mean, we could, one of us could have turned around and flipped the bird off and itshut the line. Right.us going across the bridge right there.But that didn't happen.
01:04:11They spaced us out, I know, 15, 20 feet apartand walked single file across the bridge.It, again, you know, I don't remember walking across the bridge.It just, it's that, your frame of mind is still in a daze.You just, you don't know what's going on.Yeah, you're getting released, but you still, you still just don't know.And some of the guys, and this thought never crossed my mind,but some of the guys were concerned, you know,
01:04:52we're walking out of North Korea captivity right back into the U.S. government captivitybecause we gave up the ship.And you just don't do that.Yeah, they were afraid they'd be prosecuted.Yeah, yeah.But that didn't happen as far as the crew was concerned.See, that walk, of course, you get over to the other side,and there's a photograph in my book of a lieutenant commander signing us off one at a time coming across.
01:05:33And maybe it hit me then, you know, hey, well,I'm released and, but still, there's just, there's still a lot ahead of you in the months to come.Yes.Rehabilitating yourself and your mind and some got through it and some didn't.You know, it's a, it's a tough transition.Um, and what was the total amount of time that you spent in enemy hands when all of a sudden,11 months.Wow.
01:06:08From January 23rd to December 23rd.And subsequently, what have you learned about those negotiations that led up to your release?Like, how did that come about and why?When the negotiations started, right after we were taken,the Navy was going to use a Navy officer to do the Interior.or not interrogating, they're communicating between the North Korean and I think they had,they might have had Chinese there too. I don't remember that, but anyway, the North Koreans and theand the US government, the US military, but the Army said, you know, you have no idea how these
01:07:00people communicate, how they negotiate, uh, uh, you, you, you, you have no idea, um, how these people, um, communicate, how they negotiate, uh,it's too much of a learning curve for you to jump in this.But they had an Army, General Woodward, I believe is his name.He had experience with negotiating with himand knew how much of a pain in the ass they were.So it was decided to use him.Well, when it come down to, you know, all year long,the North Koreans, they may come to,
01:07:36come to the table and just get up and walk out or might not even show up for us scheduled.They're very unpredictable.But when it come right down to the final thing, the hardest thing for the U.S. to admit was we were in there waters.That was a big, that was the big step.And from what I understand, from the books that I have read about the incident, there was a wife of one of the generals on, said, well, why don't you just do a public appearance and say, you'll be signing this confession to release the crew and to release the crew only?And then go ahead and sign a confession, you know, so.And so that's what they did.They presented that they did an interview from what I understand and said, you know, this is to release the crew.
01:08:42And they signed it.In North Korea, they bought off on it.And that's how it took place.That's interesting.And then what was the journey back home like for you from the moment you crossed the bridge to being fully repatriated?Yeah.And that's, again, that's getting your mind focused on getting back to life.When we got back to San Diego, we were treated like heroes.
01:09:18Of course, your Vietnam vets, they got, it said what they were put through when they got back.We weren't.We, San Diego just opened up their arms for us.So you're treated as heroes.And I never really considered myself a hero.I, you know, I just doing the job.And so it's, there's that part out there.And then now you're going home.
01:09:57And it starts all over again.I come from a small hometown, or a small town in Kansas.And again, you're treated like a hero.That's got to stop someday.Right.And then what do you do?Well, I had decided, as you know, that I'm going to get home, get my life started,get trained a job I wanted to get trained for and go to work and go from there, you know,
01:10:33and that's kind of what I did.So, but still your mind, you can't, you can't forget all those times, you know,from a year before in 68 and then the release and,and coming back home and getting the treatment you got there.And it's hard to cope.It really is.Unless you really try.And it's tough.
01:11:13And some guys can't.Some guys can't.In your book,there is one really poignant moment where you're,at the family dinner table and you kind of,you and your father excuse yourselvesbecause you don't wanna talk in front of your motherabout what happened in North Korea.
01:11:33And you have that conversation with your dadabout what you endured.And as I recall, I mean, he cried.And then you guys never talked about it again.No, we didn't.You know, nobody really talked to me about a lot of you guysI've worked with, people.in my small town I was from.
01:11:58Of course, they knew what I'd been through as far as being on the, well, and being in captivityfor 11 months, but they never really knew exactly what I went through.And I never really told anybody.My frame of mind was nobody believed what I went through anyway.But nobody asked me, you know, so I just went on.But dad was the same way.You know, I wanted to let him know exactly what happened, you know, and it hit him hard.And I just left it up to him to tell mom.
01:12:37Because they went through hell, too.Yeah.They're really good.You were also, like, pretty thoroughly debriefed by the National Security Agency, right?because the Pueblo was on a national security agency mission?Right.What was that debriefing like?Well, it was for me not being associated with any of that work as far as the CTs were concerned.
01:13:13They were more concerned with the what was destroyed, especially out of the safe I was emptying.And they were concerned about one piece of equipment.And I don't remember how he described it, but I told him I did not see it in the safe.Oh, it's the encryption equipment.If it was destroyed, we didn't destroy it.Somebody else come along and pulled it out of the safe and destroyed it.But it had to do something with the decoding.But most everything in there was.
01:13:51just a classified document,the top secret documents.And so after that kind of like return home,I mean, you decided to get out of the Navy, right?Yes.And.Yeah, I, I, uh,I, I, I, I wanted to be electrician.
01:14:13So, but I needed to be, uh, trained.Um, I was E3 when we were seized, uh, the game of E4 when it got back.then about time was getting ready to leave to go separate ways.They said, we'll give you E5 if you pass a test within a year.Well, I put in for a school, you know, to be electricians made,and I got to thinking, you know, here I'm an E5 going to a schoolthat start training guys right out of boot camp,and they probably knew more about electricity than I did.
01:14:50And I thought, yeah, I'm going to see if I can get a medical.discharge. That's what I did. I talked to ourcorpsman and said, you think I have a chance to get the medicaldischarge? You won't have any problem at all. Nobodybrought to that to my attention, you know,you can get medical discharge if you want to.So that's the route I took. So I retiredmilitary as an E5 electrician's mate and
01:15:15never did a bit of electrical work.what did you do after the navy i went to trade school uh took electricity went to union apprenticeship schoolfor four years become a lecturation and um electrician for 13 years and the constructionindustry kind of fell apart so i went to work with the army coiff engineers as an electrical inspectorand that's where i retired and throughout your life i mean i i imagine because you wrote this book i meanIt sounds like you're trying to move on with your life.But at the same time, this, like, pivotal moment in your life is something that you can't just brush aside and forget about.Is that why you wrote the book?
01:16:04I wrote the book.I started, well, I don't call it a book when I started because a friend of mine years ago, he said, you need to write a book.And I said, no, because, you know, my part of the Pueblo is.very small. That don't fill a book. I mean, just a very small portion. But a biography of my lifefor my family, that's different. And so that's how I started it. And I had some over 300 pageswritten up, you know, from when I was a small kid, up to the point where I was still writing,basically. And then a friend of mine had started a book of different veterans in the Kansascity area, telling their stories, you know, and he asked me to tell my story. So I did. And he said,
01:17:11you need to write a book. And so that got me kind of off a dead center and I looked into a publisherand storyteller publishers.So that's kind of where the book part started,and then that was kind of about a two-year process on that.Because I'm a terrible writer.My punctuation and I just don't write very well,but the story was there.I just needed somebody to kind of make it understandable, I guess.
01:17:48Well, I mean, the book did come out really well.I read it on my Kindle for folks that want to find it on there.Or it's a hard copy is available also.But, I mean, it came out great.I think it was a really interesting book.Well, I wanted mainly to get across what the crew went through.And, of course, what I went through too.But I have people that will see my Purple Heart have.
01:18:18I wear and how far are you wounded and where'd you serve, you know,in Pueblo, I've never heard of it.And that kind of upsets me.You know, there's more people that have never heard of it than there are that have.And of course, the people that have heard of it, they know it well.They've lived it back then.But I, I, there's severalguys on the on the crew that wrote books and but that's been several years ago and then there
01:18:58were several like I said when the documents were declassified in Washington then several otherbooks were written and some very good books but there hasn't been one written for a goodmany years so well there's time to do it and so far it's doing openokay, I guess.And the title,pig fat soup is because that's primarily what they were feeding you in the camp.Yeah.Yeah,
01:19:26when the first meals,I recall that there was this white chunk of something floating in this oil slickand watered down cabin soup and rice.They gave us rice about every meal.And,And it had something prickly sticking out of the top of it, just snow white in color.And I had no idea what it was.And from Kansas, we never seen anything like that.
01:20:02Well, it turned out to be pig fat with the hair still on it.And, of course, there wasn't a bit of meat on it.They cut all the meat off.I don't ever remember eating that.Some of the crew may have, but I never did.Delicious.And we, like I said, we had rice, air meal, and they'd feed us fish, which we saw the fish being dried down below our window outside, like on clothes lines.When it was dried, it wasn't too bad, you know.
01:20:44but when it reached its expiration date, it wasn't edible.And we call it sewer trap because it was so bad.But, yeah, I lost 55 pounds.I was a little overweight anyway, but the only guys that didn't lose weightwas guys were really skinny, but everybody lost a lot of weight.Yeah.Just not much nutrition in what they fed us.And you mentioned you've been retired after being an electrical safety inspector.
01:21:22What are you up to nowadays?Do you do like speaking engagements talking about?Yeah, I've been speaking for past several years even before the book was written.And, but I, I, I, I try to play some golf.I use that golf word loosely because I'm not that good, but I really enjoy playing.And I do woodworking.I make military plaques.And I do some scrolling, scrolling work for the church.
01:22:00And that's kept me busy over the years.And I've been fortunate enough to, I, I've looked.into these nonprofit organizations that provide hunting and fishing events for veterans.And I encourage anybody that likes to hunt or fish look into these nonprofit organizationsbecause they really treat the vets really spoil you on a hunting trip or fishing trip.Some of them you might have to pay your way to get there, you know, or drive yourself orBut once you get there, everything's taken care of.The guides are paid for, the lodgings paid for, the food's paid for.
01:22:45And they just give you the best treatment in the world.So that's, I've done that over the past years and been on some spectacular hunts.And from western Kansas to red stag hunting Canada to fishing trips.and just got back from Lake Michiganand fishing for King Salmon and Coho and Steelheadand just absolutely wonderful.And that was a nonprofit organizationof Foundation for Exceptional Warriors.
01:23:25They're just, they've really been good to me.And also the wounded warrior in action.Foundation. There are another outfit that provides hunting and fishing events for veterans.That's really cool.It is.Yeah, I'm glad you bring some attention to that. I hope people will go and look into it.They should. Like I said, if you like to hunt, you'd like to fish, whether you're, you're, you have mobility issues.They can help you with that.
01:24:00They'll get you to the hunt.They'll get you on the boat.They'll get you whatever you need.They'll take care of you.And speaking of which, Keith, tell us about the painting behind you.Oh, the painting?That painting is done by an artist out in San Diego, Richard Dorasi.he's been painting the Pueblo pictures for many, many years.
01:24:38And this is one of the first ones he did.It really shows what we were up against.The number of ships, the identifications on the ships, the numbers on the migs,that's all authentic to what it was, the types of ships.and so we were we were surrounded we were being fired on from all sides it just you take one look at that and youwow yeah yeah it's incredible yeah and the the painting or the cover of the booki was going to use the painting that's behind me but that was used in another book just prior to mecoming out with mine but the
01:25:28the artisthe said I'll paint you onefor your bookbefore your book and I said well let's doa different angle on it let's do it fromthe aft you knowandshow the name of the Pueblo
01:25:48on it andwell I guess the one in the back isthat one I'm sorry I've got twothis is the one that's on the cover of my book.Gotcha.I was going to say,in the background.It's from the back of the ship.
01:26:04I'm covering up the name of the ship on the bottom of it.But it just gives a different perspective of how it was.But he's been a great artist.He goes in a great detail and what the ships look likeand how it really was.Stephen, thank you so much for telling us your story and this ordeal you and your shipmates went through.Before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to mention that we didn't get to in this interview?I don't think so.
01:26:42I just really appreciate the opportunity to come on this podcast and tell the story.you know I'm I'm it's getting harder and harder for me to to talk and think of words to say and try to explain things the way they should be should be explained but I do do try my best no no you did great Stephen thank you it does get harder the odor you get and I hope people will go and check out the book pig fat soup by Stephen WolfeAnd it's available now. You can go find it on Amazon or wherever you go to find books.We'll have some links down in the description to this podcast also.One thing I do ask if if somebody already has the book or does go online to get it, please leave a review on Amazon.They'll take any any review, but please leave a review on it.It helps really helps me to know what direction need to go andAnd thank you.
01:27:51Absolutely.So thank you everyone who joined us tonight, and we'll see you next time.Hey, Jack.What's going on?Guess who our new presenting sponsor is?Tell us about it.We've heard a lot over the last few years about whether it's possible to build things in America.Our presenting sponsor today, Vera watches, is putting that question to the test.
01:28:15Vera was founded in Venice, California, in 2016, with a simple goal to rebuild U.S. watchmaking,while producing watches tough enough to withstand the toughest outdoor environments.Today, VIR is the largest independent watch assembler in America,assembling watches in California, Arizona, Rhode Island, and Alabama,while also manufacturing its leather straps in Illinois and Florida.Every VAR watch is built for active use with a guaranteed waterproof warranty,scratch-resistant, sapphire crystals, and high-quality materials and components throughout.That combination has helped VAR earn more than 10,000 five-star customer reviews, including thousands from people who rely on their watches every day in demanding professional environments.
01:28:59All of us here at the Team House have been wearing our VAR watches for a while now.And you can check mine out right here.This is the Meridian Diver Watch in Navy Blue.It's a very classy watch.And this is the actual rubber dive watch.band if you wanted to, you know, take it in salt water.But it also comes with a normal, uh, silver band and a nylon band if you prefer that.And, uh, Dee, what kind of watch are you wearing there?
01:29:29I have the C4 tactical field watch.Uh, it's solar power too.I'm loving it.And it's funny because I had this laying on my coffee table on the other day, actually,and my homie came in and to watch football or whatever.And he's a watch guy.And he's like, oh, is that that Vair one?He, I, I might even.
01:29:48making this up like I'm not even bullshit I'm like holy shit yeah like they're gonna be presentingsponsor for the team house and they sent us all a bunch of watches like yo I love this watch andI literally sold the watch I sent them the link the team house link and I'm like yo buy a watchfrom this from this link because if you do buy a watch from that link which is very watchesdot com slash the team house you when you purchase a watch you get a free uh watch roll that you couldfill up with three watches so you could travelwith your watches and stuff like that.It's really cool.
01:30:20It's leather.Yeah.And I was so excited when he was like,yo, is that that Vair watch?I see it all the time.I was like so amped that he came up with that.Yeah, it's nice.I really like the nice big watch face.
01:30:33You can find them at Vairwatches.com slash the team house.That's V-A-E-R-W watches.com slash the team house.And if you use our link,you'll get a free watch roll with $59 with your purchase.Also, Vair does offer a $20.percent discount for active duty military veterans and law enforcement and first responders.So you could check that out at any time if you are any one of those.Yeah, I'm excited about the sponsorship.
01:30:59So I really hope people go and check out there.Yeah, absolutely.
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