The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Jen Psaki

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

Jen Psaki, former White House Press Secretary and current host of The “Briefing with Jen Psaki” on MSNBC, joins Andy Richter to discuss her new role at MSNBC, her path to politics, what working in the White House is really like, and much more.In Southern California? Come see the Andy Richter Call-In Show live for free at SiriusXM Studios in Hollywood. Visit http://siriusxm.com/andyrichterla for your chance at free tickets.Do you want to talk to Andy live on SiriusXM’s Conan O’Brien Radio? Tell us your favorite dinner party story - leave a voicemail at 855-266-2604 or fill out our Google Form at BIT.LY/CALLANDYRICHTER. Listen to "The Andy Richter Call-In Show" every Wednesday at 1pm Pacific on SiriusXM's Conan O'Brien Channel.

Hey everybody, welcome back to The Three Questions. I'm your host Andy Richter and today I am talking to Jen Psaki. She was the 34th White House press secretary under President Biden. Well, not, she didn't have 34. She was the 34th White House press secretary and she happened to work under President Biden. She previously served in various press and communication roles in the Obama administration. And now she's on TV. You can watch the briefing with Jen Psaki on MSNBC at 9 p.m. Eastern, Tuesday through Friday. Here is my really fun and interesting conversation with Jen Psaki. Well, I think the first question that's on everybody's mind with you is how do you avoid curling up into a ball every single day and just weeping and rocking and crying. Some days I want to, cause I'm a human being who has feelings and emotions like you.

Yes. Um, but I would say two things that I do to help myself feel sane on a professional level. One is I read everything I can read. Um, because sometimes now I think always knowledge is power, and it helps you better understand what the hell's happening, so that's one. The other one is I've been in politics for a while,

believe it or not. I still feel young at heart. My mother, who's 79, always tells me this is true. Sometimes she's like, I feel 30, and I'm like I feel 30 and I'm like, I know I'm like I'm not 25 anymore. And that's just a rude awakening. But I'm right there with you. I'm 58 and I am like I cannot be a day over 30, you know, yeah, I'm like and even then some days it's it's 17 I feel so dumb and naive you meet you and So I can't believe that I have been involved in some way in politics for 20

plus years. Yeah. But because of that, it's a form of I guess history, but recent history. I remember very well, I worked for John Kerry in 2004. Yeah. I was a baby press person as I like to say I traveled around with him and his kids on the campaign lots of weird crazy stories about that Yeah, but he lost and you may remember because I know you're a political animal in addition to many other things That not only did he lose but a number of people lost big Senate seats basically Democrats lost a lot that you're right, right and There were stories that were written like the Republican Party will dominate forever moving forward Democrats are done and I on a personal level was at this stage in my career where I had some experience but not a ton I had a $27 in my bank account if I remember I I mean, I didn't want to ask my parents for anything.

They would have helped me, but I was living on a friend's couch, interviewing for all the same jobs. The other 800 people who had my level of experience were interviewing for while reading these stories. And also, who were on the side that just lost? Who were on the side that just lost? Everybody lost, right? Yeah.

But I eventually started working for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. Democrats won back the House that year because in part they ran against the culture of corruption, which was true. I'm putting in quotes because that was our phrasing. Yeah. Two years later, a guy named Barack Hussein Obama won the presidency who I was working for. My point is that there are moments that seem horrific and terrible and this is darker than that moment was for sure. But there are also green shoots that can turn

into bigger movements and can turn into a change of leadership and so I lean a lot into my own political experience over the years to keep some optimism and hope in my soul. Yeah. And do you also think too, sometimes because I mean, this is something that I, I tell myself, I don't know how much of it is an informed opinion from just being on the planet for a few decades, or how much of it is just wishful thinking. But it's like, could this possibly be like the boil getting lanced and the, you know, the infection will, you know, the fever will break because it's gotten to such an extreme and we're now arresting judges and things like that. Which by the way, I felt when I saw that a judge got arrested,

I felt like, and Jen has to talk to me today. I can't this is the crazy thing about when you're no longer in government and you're like I have no power over what happens I have no actual power right I which is kind of this funny thing about this transition Mitch Landrie you know Mitch Landrieu sure great amazing guy Louisiana yeah yes former mayor of New Orleans and he told me when right after about this transition, Mitch Landrieu, you know how Mitch Landrieu is? Sure, yeah, yeah. He's a great, amazing guy. The little Louisiana, yeah. Yes, former mayor of New Orleans, and he told me when, right after he left, his role as mayor ended,

there was flooding or something that happened, and he said, get everybody on the phone, we need to have a meeting immediately, and they were like, Mitch, you have no power. And that is true, I mean, I have obviously the power of a show, but that's different. Yeah, maybe. But I think I am optimistic about what movements and activism can prompt. I am not optimistic about the what comes after Trump and the Republican Party.

I think he is he's got I don't want to call it charisma, but it's it's like an evil charisma that I don't think others have an incredible power. He's got an incredible superpower, which I think primarily is shamelessness. Yes. Like when you have absolute shamelessness, you can do all kinds of crazy shit that you know, no one else can do. That is true. It is a shamelessness and it is a lack of any care for other human beings, which I guess is tied with shamelessness, right? Yeah. But what concerns me about this Lansing of the Boyle

analogy, and I wish that was the case, is that there seems to be a blind following by his entire party of his brand of politics. And the Mitt Romney's of the world are just not, they're not even like a healthy minority in the party anymore. There's still some, but that's what concerns me about the Lansing, the Boyle hope. Yeah. Yeah. What was it originally?

Because your mom is a shrink. Yes. Your dad is in real estate. I mean, were they political people? Like was it a kind of in the air in your house? So that was sort of, that was the beginnings of it? No. Oh, really?

They were, you know, my first political memory is of in 1984 when Reagan won in a landslide. My dad voted for Reagan, my mom voted for Mondale, and my dad said to my mom, you're the only person in this country who voted for Mondale. And I was like five, I guess. Yeah. And I thought, mom, I don't know. You don't know about politics. Come on.

Yeah, yeah. But no, they were, I mean, they're both still alive and doing well, no longer married. But I would say my dad was a Republican his whole life until probably 2008, 20 around then or maybe a little bit before kind of a New England Republican. Yeah, I'm from Republicans, but they're kind of Eisenhower Republicans. Yeah, yes. All the and the the ones that are, you know, the offspring that were Republican their whole lives are there's not a Republican left.

Well, yeah, there's one, you know, maybe two. One two. I want to know their stories. They've got stories to tell. Well, one, there's one, you know, maybe two, one, two, I want to know their stories. They've got stories to tell. Yeah, I know. Yeah, no, I don't know. I think, well, religion plays a part in it. Yeah. But yeah, but like, I mean, you know, my uncle who has passed, but he ran for like local offices as Republican and was in the Republican Party. My grandfather was chairman of the Republican Party of Kendall County for 29 years. And I grew up going to election nights at the, you know, the storefront at the strip mall. So, and then, but like my, you know, if you think it was an AOC rally at Thanksgiving at our house now, thank God.

How is that evolution? That must have been a strange evolution to sort of see, or maybe not strange. Maybe it was over time. It was over time. And it was also too that even the Republicanism, that was all that Eisenhower, leave business alone, low taxes kind of stuff. But then I think even in the midst of all that, my parents and their peers age-wise, the kind of the civil rights aspect of it I think was always troubling to them, you know, and the sort of, you know, the wolf whistles that turned into klaxons, you know, that became very, very troubling to all of them too. But I also think that they just were like, you know, the government has to protect people. And then just, I think also too, for most of them, the evangelical turn was just a deal breaker too.

Just too much. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because even with my mother, who I think has probably never voted for a Republican in her life, but she wasn't political, she just felt like, how do you do right?

And also what is right? Right is, it was more of a right is taking care of people who don't have food on the table, right? Is making sure kids have access to healthcare and school. And it was more about how do I feel I can be a good human being in society and what does that require than it was I have a bunch of political merchandise in my house if that makes sense. Absolutely, yeah. So what happened to you? What happened? Why would you do this? You know, I didn't grow up thinking I wasn't involved in college Democrats in college or

anything like that. I didn't graduate thinking I was going to work in politics. Yeah. Um, I went and worked on a political campaign in Iowa and worked for the I had Democratic Party in 2002. It was sort of my, not a, I call it a quarter life crisis because I was like 23 or 24. I don't even know what, but I, yeah, I read that. What does that mean? I mean, I don't know. Cause people say midlife crisis. Yeah. Like what I mean by it is I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. I was living in D.C. because I went to college in Virginia. Yeah. I kind of felt like I didn't I didn't have a purpose. Right. I wanted to find some sort of thing that was going to make me feel more driven

about what I was doing professionally. And for me, that was going and trying out politics and working on a campaign. And what I loved about it as juniors, I was door knocking. I had a palm pilot because that was the technology at the time, a fanny pack. But what I loved about it was it was about something bigger than myself right you all had a shared goal you wanted to re-elect at the time it was Governor Vilsack and Senator Harkin now the guy Governor Vilsack was running against I just remember his last name was Gross and I thought Governor Gross it's in itself it just sounded bad but that's it well another wonderful contribution that German culture has given us. It's true now.

Yeah. But I just loved the culture of campaigns and being a part of something bigger. And then I just kept doing campaigns. And it was for me, a lot of people, you move away from home for college. I did that too. But people go, they live in another city across the country. For me, my education in my 20s was about living all over the country in different communities, in different states, and meeting people who were different from how I had grown up, which really does expand your perspective. And it was invaluable for me as I was growing up.

Yeah. Did you have a short attention span when you were a kid? I don't know. Maybe. Because that just to me, all of that sounds like constant change, constant change, constant change, you know, and that just seems because that's I have I, I definitely have attention deficit. You have change. Yeah, yeah.

And I, and when I got out of school, I worked freelance in film production and that was the thing that I loved about it was every day was a different thing. Yes. And, and, and I, you know, and then I didn't, I never intended to sort of get on a talk show for a million years because that was not what I was hoping for. But I mean, it turned out to be a beautiful thing, but I, I still enjoy that. I still enjoy a variable schedule with variable stimuli. You know, me too. Yes.

I love change. I love I mean, most of my time in politics, I traveled with candidates, which I loved because every day was Literally different because you were in a different state you were meeting different people And you just learned something it forced you to be on your feet too. I love that That is still the case. It's funny Do you have siblings? I should know this I do I do know that's alright I do I have an older brother and a younger half brother and sister who

are nine years younger than me. They have a different, my stepfathers. Yes. Yeah. I have a lot of step siblings. Sometimes I forget how many that's how many there are, but I have two full sisters and my middle, there's a point of my reference here. My sister who's two years younger than me is this, she's a public health expert, she's brilliant, genius. She's very analytical, data-driven. She'd love to be in her office, just like analyzing health data,

which thank God we need that in the world, especially in this moment. She's brilliant. I'm kind of the opposite and I would, I am just a go with your gut person You know, I love to be moving around and we took one of those We both took this one of those tests where they test, you know what you're good at or bad And they say nothing's you're not bad at nothing, you know, everybody's it's not about being good and bad

But it's about your skill sets or whatever Yeah, my risk aversion was like 2% and hers was like 97%. Which we always laugh about because it's just you're, you have the same gene pool, but you're born with a certain way. And then you have kids and you realize it too. It's like, they aren't like, people are like, you know, ask about my kids. And I'm like, they came out of the womb who they are. I tell people this all the time. You could see it in their little faces. Yeah. Well, they're still not well, they're still not dried off yet.

You're like, oh, OK, I see what she's like. You know, it's totally you have what your younger child is five, six. Yes, I have a I have the 20, 24, 19 and five. Yes. I had a second wave of child. We love a second wave. I do too. I it's like that if you, you know, if you're looking to feel not so old, have a young kid because you cannot feel old.

I mean, they make you feel, you know, when she's jumping on me like a trampoline, it feels old. But, but I definitely, you know, I, I, I am raising a little kid again and I, I don't, you know, when her, when her friends at preschool told me, are you her grandpa? That's where I'm like, Oh shit, I thought I was pulling this off, but okay. Maybe not. You're like, I'm her wise father. I know all of the things. You're like, you know all of the tricks. You'll know where she hides the cigarette or whatever

it is. You know all the things. And I see the dead stare in your daddy's eyes and I want to tell him it's going to be fine. Yeah. Because he doesn't know that it's going to be fine yet. It's going to be okay. I mean, my son, my daughter's nine, my son just turned seven. And there is something, I mean, well, let's not romanticize for people listening who don't have kids yet. I mean, I've been wiping butts for ten years and that's not romantic but they are

Magical people who make me think about things they're humanizing they bring you down to earth in so many ways I mean my son my my kids are also very different from each other Which I always think is people tell you this before you have a second child that like the second one may not be exactly like the first one and you're like, I know the child that I make, you know, it's like, I know better than you. And my daughter is this kind of extroverted never met a stranger like she went to New York for the first time last year, she came off the train and she goes I love it here. You know, that's who she is Right and my son is this very thoughtful Introverted, you know, but he's got friends and stuff. You know, it's not bad

I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, it's he gains his energy and he will say when I'm putting him to bed I mean in the last couple weeks the questions ranged from, do your bones go with you when you die? How can you travel to Iran? He quizzed me the other night on who won each state in the election. He's like an intense kid, but like also a lover, you know? Yeah. But it's like, where do these people come from?

They're who they are when they're born. And it is what is so mad. My mother, who's a therapist, as you mentioned, she always says, and there's the people say this to the only one, like love the child you have, like be on the journey with the child you have. Because it's like they're going to take you in places you never thought you'd go, which is I think such a wonderful view of parenting. Because you can't make them they are who they are beyond the journey on where they're going to go. And I love that about being a parent. Yeah. And also, why

would you want them to be anyone different? Like that's why that's the thing that that's the thing that I was most surprised would upset me about other parents is why would you try to make that like what unless they're murdering somebody right let them do what they want what are you crazy you know yes and it's so enjoyable to see it yeah you know and you just learn you because you want to learn about things they my son is taking chess I've just described him as a very intense kid I guess this applies to that as well. It sure does. But he just started taking after school chess in his school and he's like, I love it. I was like,

I don't know how to do chess, but this seems in your personality. Yes, absolutely. Who knows? Thinking that far ahead is not something I'm good at. No. Yeah, there you go. I can't do that. One thing I wonder about with people kind of that are in your position and especially with your career path from dipping into politics and then back out into talking about politics is you obviously start out with some idealism. And that has to be sort of an early engine to what you're doing and that would cause you something like a quarter life crisis, like as you describe it.

Right. As you get into the real nuts and bolts and blood and guts of politics, how much of a beating does that idealism take? There are moments where the idealism takes a big hit, right? And it has in my career in part because when you go work for a politician, you may not say to yourself, this person is perfect, but there's a part of you that thinks this person is the answer to all of the things happening. Right. And I want to work for them because they are,

um, you know, the ideal candidate, no one is the ideal candidate and no one is a perfect person. And so my moments of idealism being taking a hit, taking a hit have been, it's like when you know your parents are real people and imperfect, like they make weird parenting choices or whatever it may be. Right, right, right.

Or you just see them being selfish. You see them just being human. Right, right, right. Or you just see them being selfish. You see them just being human. Right, exactly. It's true with politicians too. And I have, because I've spent most of my career traveling with politicians, I've spent all this time with Barack Obama and Joe Biden and John Kerry and Rahm Emanuel. They are all amazing leaders in different ways. They're all very different from each other, but yeah, they're imperfect.

And when that hits you the first time, it's like a gut punch. Cause you're like, Oh my God, I'm just, because working on a campaign or public service is your many, you're giving up your life in many ways for a period of time. You're sleeping on couches, you're drinking bad beer, and even when you're not doing that, you're eating, breathing, living, getting this person elected. Anytime there's a chink in the armor,

you're like, okay, I haven't gone for a run in seven months or paid my credit card or eaten a vegetable. Right? I hope this is worth it. But it's also healthy to see that and over time it becomes easier. Right? Over time, you know, you realize, yeah, they're not perfect because no one is. And actually the imperfections about some of those politicians is what makes them relatable

to people and what makes them understand imperfections in others and the faults in humans. And that when you realize that it makes it kind of okay. Yeah. You just mentioned something that I thought of before when you were talking about like really throwing yourself into campaigns. And it reminded me of something that, because like I said, when I, I went to film school in Chicago and when I got out, I worked in production.

And there was a real, a wonderfully like, dry, wise script supervisor that I used to work with all the time. And she just had such a great, just a great attitude and sort of wisdom about so much stuff. And one of the things she said to me once, she said, we're at lunch. And she said, look around this room.

She said, everybody in this room is co-dependent. And that's why they're here. She said, because they are looking to put something else before themselves. Yeah. They are looking to give someone else the reins of their entire day. They're almost their entire existence. Like here production, you tell me what I'm going to do all day because they don't want

to figure it out for themselves. And I, it, you know, first of all, ouch. Yeah. And then secondly. How did you digest that at the time? Yeah, I was like, oh shit, that, uh, well, okay. And I mean, and I was also young enough that it didn't really, but it just became more and became one of the most pressing things I ever heard about my particular job. It makes me think that about your job. And it makes

me wonder, like, was there a certain point where you're like I got to get a life like I am I'm giving up my life to this People you know many look, you know I and and the thing about I've been very fortunate because I've loved what I have done at every point most of my I'm a Terrible consultant. I hated that but other than that. I loved almost every job I've had was that like PR stuff like telling Clients and you know, you only know 5% of the things and I was like I can't do this I'm yeah That might I always tell people when they're starting the careers like you learn things you're terrible at, you know

Yeah, like I'm a terrible biker. I can't I'm probably tone-deaf like it's fine I don't need to be singing on a bike. Like I can do other things. Right. And like, there goes my big pitch to you. I'm right. I'll try. I have no risk aversion. I will try, but it won't be good. Um, you know, I, okay, wait, now I forget your question. Now go back to your question. I'm sorry. I just got off on a random. About being codependent. Oh yeah. You know, you, I've had several moments that have been informative in a very good way. And I've learned that you can't expect from other people what they are incapable of delivering sometimes.

Like you can only control your own behavior, right? And that means you can be disappointed in your college, you can be disappointed in your boss. So I've learned that certainly many times. Well, I traveled with John Kerry when he was the Secretary of State. This was before I had kids. I was married. My husband says it's like it was a period of time where I would like have random visits to the United States because I was like never home, right? Yeah. You didn't have kids yet, but. Yeah. And I remember, um, I had fractured a bunch of bones in my foot. So I had a boot on my foot for about three months.

Now I was like, I still have to travel to war zones with this boot because I can't possibly miss a trip. What if I miss a trip? First of all, if I miss a trip, we find somebody else goes. So I went on all the trips. I literally was in, I think Afghanistan, Iraq, maybe with this boot. Like I would jump out of helicopters with this boot. Now, at one point I had this boot on, I'm in war zones, it's all a little crazy,

traveling with John Kerry. I was on the plane and I bit into, I am a sugar addict. I love gummy candy, which is so bad for your teeth, but I just, it is a joy for me. So I just can't, you know, there's worse, right? You know? Um, so I bit into a Swedish fish and one of my teeth like broke and like part of it came out and I, it was a crown. Um, have you ever had a crown? This is like a whole journey. Okay.

I know what you mean. Yeah. It's like a fake tooth that you get after root canal on top of the remnants of the dead tooth. Totally. So I had a crown. You're supposed to go back after a couple of weeks and get the full tooth. And I was so busy with my boot and war zones.

I forgot. I didn't go back for like six months So this is like a very I had the temporary for too long So as I'm like hobbling around war zones with a tooth and a baggie, I was like I think I need to Address my priorities By life here a little bit I've also found I don't know if you found this like with every year that passes your perspective changes in a very constructive good way. And it has made like a better friend, a better partner, I think a better parent.

I mean, certainly having kids does that. And you know, by the time I went back to the White House, I had this perspective that was like, I'm so honored to be here to be Joe Biden's press secretary, but I also need to have like parameters in my life because I have two kids now and that is also kind of a healthy thing. So, you know, I, that moment of my tooth and my foot, it's, it's that, um, that, that helped me kind of rethink some things.

And I realized for me, um, when I left the White House, I actually, my mom and my brother-in-law and I went to a transcendental meditation training for several days. And I don't do meditation all the time, but it is something when I feel in this moment of cholera, as I like to call it, that like I need some, meditation is a thing that I've found to be dealing with

my own sometimes I can get work addicted and I need to like do things like that to bring myself down to like a steady planet. Exercise is important, that helps. Exercise, always having a fiction book to read, fiction because nonfiction is life and what I do for a living. So I don't know, I've learned from my moments where I've taken it a little too far and lost my connection to reality and planet Earth for sure.

But you know, a broken foot and a broken tooth are external physical things. I mean, yeah. Do you feel like if you didn't have these sort of external things that you would be okay in that sort of existence? No, no one would be. Yeah. I think that, um, well, there's John Kerry on the, on the screen behind you. I know it's like, this is your life. Hello. Hello. Talking about the pope. Talking about the pope. I know i'm happy as a clam in europe because that's his you know He loves it. Um, yeah. Yeah, I um, no and I think that um You know when you get so driven whatever your career is and for me, it's obviously been politics and campaigns and government It is it does have a mental health impact on you, right? Because of your just pure level of exhaustion,

your pure level of not taking care of yourself and that is physical, it's also mental too. And that's why I wanted to do meditation training after I left the White House. I also think that, I mean, one of the things that I think has been such a positive development is, is like people talking about mental health struggles and sports and the pressures of absolutely sports and politics and whatever it may be. And, you know, in my family, because my

mother's a therapist, it's like, we're like, if you don't have a therapist, that's weird. That's how we kind of see things. I'm right there with you. I like like everybody needs a therapist. I cannot imagine being so so unruffled by existence that you don't need to talk to somebody every now and then. Yeah about whatever it may be and so um that's something that's come as I've gotten older too, just recognizing that you need to take care of yourself, your physical self, but you also need to take care of like your emotional and spiritual self too. And that can have many meetings.

I don't mean, I don't go to church regularly, anything like that. I just mean staying connected to yourself and what matters in life. And I did not have that, I would say in my 20s and even early 30s. It took time to kind of develop that and find that groundedness in myself. Do you find yourself needing to take steps to bulletproof yourself against resenting your work? You know what I mean? Like, you know, like,

and especially like, like I can imagine when you're the press, you know, the press secretary for a president. I don't know if you, I don't want to assume in your life, but I know, see, like, there's that feels more like there's more sort of urgency to that job. Then report, you know, then having a television show. And I say this is someone who has had television shows. And I would imagine like, it's not good if you're pissed at that job, you know? True. And you know, I was in that job, the press secretary job for 15 months or so.

And because I'd spent eight years on and off working in the Obama administration, I knew before I started it, right? What it would be. And just the weight on your life and the responsibility. And initially, they sort of talked to me about doing it for six to nine months, just because they wanted to kind of kick off the administration during a crazy time. And so and so to me that was appealing for a range of reasons. One, I'd always wanted to do the job too. I loved the idea of kind of helping develop and lift up kind of the next group of many

spokespeople out in the world. Um, and three, I knew that it would take a toll on my life and my kids were little and time passes and you don't want to wake up and your kids are, you know, 25 and you're like, we don't know. So that to me, I was very conscious of. I never, I, I would have, if I didn't have kids, um, and I was just, you know, I would have done that job for as long as they would have me. Cause I loved doing the job every day. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, but I think it, it can be a burden and you can, if you don't like your job. I mean, as I know, I hated being consultant. I've, I've not liked certain jobs and you're like, ah, you know, you get the Sunday scaries and things. I didn't have that with that job because I loved to do it. I mean, some days you're like, Oh God, this is going to be a bruiser. I would like to do a little stretch.

Are you a Ted Lasso fan? No, I don't know Ted Lasso very well. Yeah. They're in the show in the first season. There's a woman who is like the only head of a soccer team among many men in the meetings. Yeah. Before she goes into the meetings she does this thing where she stretches herself out like a tree. And I used to do that before a terrible briefing I thought was gonna be

terrible. So it can be but I never felt that in that job in part because I didn't I stayed for less than a year and a half. It was an incredible experience and then I knew I wanted to and needed to do something different. Yeah. Can't you tell my love's a grown woman? It's gotta be it. I always feel like watching you do that job and people that are good at that job, I just think there's gotta be also a charge to doing that job. Oh yeah. gotta be also like a charge to doing that job. Like a thrill in like a performance sense, because you are sort of, you know,

like you're up there getting ready to be George Bush dodging a shoe, you know, you're getting, you know, like, you're sort of in a ready position and then you get to really test yourself by answering questions that are meant to make you stumble. And if you can do it artfully, God, that must be a charge.

You know? It's a charge. And it forces you to, if you go out there and you don't know what you're talking about and you can only answer the second question or read the second bullet plane, that is a group,

it's a little bit of a different moment in time right now in terms of who's in that room. There's still some very smart people in the room. But in general, they'll eat you alive because they're smart and they are aggressive and they're there to push you and get more information. And there is something that is so motivational about that. Right? You're like, I have to have something to say.

Oh, I see somebody from in the back there. You know, you're like, I have to have something to say oh I see if somebody from in your but in the back there you know you like I have to have something to say it's out the window he's not there anymore that's my front door so it just might have been some oh your friends are dropping something off yeah you have to have something to say and that is why it can be it's a forcing mechanism to for the whole system of the White House Because you can go into a meeting and say I realize you don't want to talk about this issue right now But I'm gonna have to answer 15 minutes of questions about it. So here's what I'm gonna say What do you think about that right it forces which is ultimately a good thing for?

freedom of press and democracy and all of the things that that job is supposed to be standing up for. In that job, is there often, I mean, cause you know, most people, including myself, most of us are sort of perceptions of what the behind the scenes of like, of that kind of world are, they're television shows and they're movies, you know? So is, I just wondered like things like, of that kind of world are their television shows and their movies, you know, so is I just wondered like things like, is there a lot of do you have to often say something

that you really don't want to say? Do you often is there? Or can you say no, I'm not going to say that? Or do you can you tell the president, you know what, I think what you want me to say actually would be better if I said this and they go, oh, yeah Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know on the latter. Yes That's kind of part of your job, right? Is to be to the degree possible be one step ahead of where the questioning and is going to come from And what you might suggest saying because otherwise otherwise you're going to be spit out. Sometimes the talking points are good.

Sometimes they're bureaucratic. So when I was in that job behind the scenes, I would, you would go, I had a meeting, I was in a meeting with the president every day. Um, and you would say, I think these are the things I'm going to get asked about. Right. Um, and he might say, here's what I should set. Here's, here's what you should say. Or, or I might say, how about if I say this, right? Or I'm going to say something similar to what we said yesterday. So you have to be the driver of it. You know,

he's the president, so he gets to make a decision, but you're responsible. He doesn't have time to be coming up with things to say about every issue in the world. So it's on you to do that. But that is a part of a part of the job behind the scenes. And then about having to often, oh, you know, I mean, this is, you don't want to say this is the thing. You're there of your free will. Everyone out there, maybe we're currently working. You don't, you're not, I mean.

You can blink the message if you want. You blink twice if you wanna get out of the job. No, look, I think you have to work for people that you're aligned with. There are times where you might disagree with a strategy. You might even disagree, you know, I worked for Barack Obama for 10 years. I obviously think he was an incredible president speaker,

all of the things, great person to work for. I think he was way late to the game and coming out publicly and supportive gay marriage, even though that's what I know he was for, but you still, when you're a spokesperson, you're like a lawyer for your client. You have to say, nobody cares what I think they care about what the president thinks. So you're saying what the president thinks. Um, and that's, you know, there were times when I was at the state department too, sometimes the talking points over there get a little weak, get a little weedy.

Um, and there was a coup in Egypt, which we couldn't call a coup. So, because if we called it a coup, then we would have to cut off military funding. So at the time I had to say from the podium, we have, we have made a determination. We are not going to make a determination basically. And it was crazy. And then at some point I was caught on a mic saying, this is insane. I can't keep saying this because it was right. So there are times like that Even that there was a justification, right? There was a policy justification But yeah, when you're the spokesperson you're deciding I feel comfortable enough with the positions of the person I'm speaking on behalf of That I am gonna I am going to say them out loud.

Right. Um, and that's a choice. And if you're not comfortable with that, then you got a, you know, you're not, you're not there by, you're not, you know, you're not in prison there. Yeah. Just you're employed there. Transitioning from doing that. And I, and I found it interesting in the research to see that, like one of your first motivators was to be Barbara Walters.

Oh my god as a little kid. I don't even know if it was a motivator. I was a little kid, probably a little older than your kid, maybe around my kid's ages. I just liked 2020. I thought it was a very good program, Barbara Walters and Hugh Downs. Um, I enjoyed it. I liked the music Um, I like I know it's a weird memory You love soft focus. I love soft focus music on a news program I liked the storytelling of it. I still love storytelling the storytelling of news and um It wasn't that I decided that was what I was going to do with my life. Obviously,

I took a very different path for most of my career, but it is something that stuck with me as a kid. And I think my parents, it's not that they watch the news every night or anything like that, but they were aware of the news. We discussed current events, right? We discussed things like that in our home. And so there was an awareness of it that I have no doubt definitely shaped my interest in some ways moving forward. Yeah. At what point did you think like,

you know what, I'm gonna get on TV. I've been doing this White House stuff. I've been doing this traveling around with the secretary of state, but I'm going to get on TV and stay in one place for a while. Oh, I've never said that. You never said that. Well, that I'm going to stay in one place for a while.

But you are. I am. Yeah. Yeah. No. You know, I just thought of one more Barbara Walters thing. I did used to say when she's when I am old enough for a job, she'll be dead. Which is a little dark I can take her job as if that's how it works but anyway do something like you know what maybe if she's not do not try and make that happen I know I it's a little kids say dark things, you know? They sure do. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, my introduction into being on television was from being a spokesperson in government. And when you're working your way up through press and communications and government, it's

sort of a natural next step that most people, not most people, everybody doesn't want to do it, but you want to take it because you want to try it. Because if you are a public face, then you are part of communicating outwardly the message of the person you're working for or the administration. And it's kind of fun to do. So I mean, the first interview I did was, I think it was in 2010 or 2011. It was on Bloomberg News and it was very economic and wonky. And I was so nervous. I thought I was going to throw up. I mean, it was on the White House lawn, which is quite

a way to do your first interview. Yeah. But then just like anything, you know, you practice and you do more. You know, I, I was a contributor at CNN during the first Trump administration and I, it was interesting, even though I'd been working for a report with reporters for so many years. And even when we were having fisticuffs or arguments about things, about stories, I always understood and respected and valued the role of journalism. I mean, I was a huge consumer of it, but I found it to be a very, um, important industry, obviously I was working.

be a very important industry, obviously, I was working. And I was a contributor to CNN and I learned a lot about kind of the behind the scenes and what it all looked like. And I didn't expect to go back into government. It was sort of a surprising whole chain of events that led me to go back and work for Joe Biden in the White House. But when I was there and I was thinking about what was next, and I sort of started to hear from TV networks and things I thought to myself I guess the question is whether I could do this full-time like for real right and Meaning, you know, I'm not gonna just do it a couple times a week. Like can I do it as that's my job? and

What's scary and I think people experience this in so many industries is when you want to say something out loud and you don't know how people are going to respond, right? It's like, I don't know if you experienced this in the entertainment. It's like, I want to work for a media company full time. Like some people were like, great. And some people were like, I don't know if you could do it full time. Yeah.

Right. So you experience all the things over the course of time. I don't know if you could do it full time, right? So you experience all the things over the course of time. But I knew if I didn't try and try to do it at that point, then I would never do it. And then I would never see if that was sort of possible. But it's been, so I didn't set out thinking like, I want to go be an anchor on a television network.

What I thought about was, I think journalism and media, and there's so many different forms nowadays, right? Which is so fascinating. The formats and the types of journalism and whatever, and media. I thought these are a bunch of curious nerdy people. I am a curious nerdy people. I am a curious nerdy person. I'd like to be in this environment of continuing to learn more about things and consuming what's happening in that day and figuring out what to make of it and explaining it to the degree I can. That's a place I can do it.

So let me see if I can do it there. You know one of the things that they sent me because you know, obviously you're here to promote things and I got- Oh, well, yes. Well, sure. I'm also loved to talk to you. We can promote whatever. I know. I know. I know. I know. I don't I don't I don't resent that because I understand that. I mean, I was on a talk show for a thousand years.

I understand, like, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal isn't there just because he happened to be in the neighborhood. He's got a movie that he has to show. So, yes. But it is it is weird because I feel and first of all, let me just get like, are these times unprecedented? Well, I think there are moments in history and I, first of all, I really, I'm not just saying this, I really enjoy your podcast because I learned things about people that I know that I didn't know about them. Like Rachel Maddow and John Lovett,

who I know both of them and I recently listened in my own research. And I thought about that because no one does this better than Rachel Maddow, is this leaning into an understanding of history and what it tells us about today. And I think the way she said it it and I've been on a set with Her many times and I always learn when I am is that it doesn't it's not that just repeats You know, there's that phrase history repeats I got a mug of that for a guy one of my producers because he's just the best history buff It's that it builds right and I think that's a very interesting way of thinking about it, but I use that example because

There are moments in history that are in some ways more horrific than what we're dealing with now of course there are right and The country and our democracy got through it and that can be comforting in some ways, right? but it doesn't mean in modern history and the efforts to ignore the rule of law, our judicial system, make people fear this, have this like cloud of fear hanging over them at every moment.

That feels not unprecedented but new in terms of what my generation is experiencing and anyone younger than me and in many ways this is worse and I don't mean to be naive maybe I'm too optimistic then I thought it was going to be yeah I knew it was going to be we saw the first movie, right, in the first term. And so we knew that racism and misogyny and all these things would be swirling around this, right? We knew that he would bring in people who were more loyal to him. But some of these steps, I mean, arresting college students, sending people to a notorious

prison in El Salvador. Yeah. Yeah. Outsourcing. Again, privatizing something really fucking evil. Really fucking evil. And that is worse. And so history, I think, can be such an important guide, maybe a comfort at times.

Very much so. Yeah, that you can lean into. But I also think that this moment in terms of what most people who were alive have experienced is different. And from past presidents, of course, of both parties and how they've treated the Supreme Court, rule of law, people's rights, humanity, all of it. Yeah. Well, the reason I bring up the email and because I, you know, like I, to me, it does

feel like, yeah, yeah, there's been, you know, we've been through periods, obviously, before, you know, of, you know, we went through McCarthyism, you know, and, I mean, and, you know, we've been through periods, obviously, before, you know, of, you know, we went through McCarthyism, you know, and, and I mean, and, you know, and the country was, we can look at it and say, like, Oh, yeah, but the country was in a good stable place, aside from McCarthyism. But yeah, but yeah, if you're white male, it was good, you know, it was a much worse place to be a woman or to be black and or black woman or a thousand other different things that aren't a white male. Yeah.

Um, and then I will tell myself like, yeah, we went through eight years of George Bush and go into war that was bullshit, but then we got Barack Obama. Like we do have this, this ability to correct, but this one, you know, it just does seem like, Ooh, they're just, you know, they're ignoring the Supreme Court. They're arresting judges. They're deporting people. They're, they're now talking about deporting citizens, which is like, that's not even possible. Yes. But, but he thinks it is. I mean, this, this is, this is where, um, right. It, it feels like there is this history as a comfort. Um, but in this moment, there is this, you know,

the George W. Bush, George W. Bush looks pretty good. You know, I mean, he's painting in Texas. God bless him. Right. I mean, he was surrounded and they and they did a lot of bad things, and evil stuff. Yes, they did a lot of bad things. And they were sharper about manipulating the structure and the institution to get money into people's pockets.

And there was the whole Iraq War. Yes. Yeah. All of those things. So I don't, I just mean there there feels what feels You know, it's like I never want to project fear on people But there is a moment where you can be fearful because this is a person who feels like he's missing a chip of compassion Yeah, right that cruelty is kind of the point and that that is I may disagree with a lot of things George W

Bush did, and I certainly do, and Dick Cheney, and Ronald Reagan, all this, whatever, but I don't think cruelty was the point. And this feels different from that. At the same time, not at the same time, but slightly, one of the things that I do try to, in addition to my meditating and my exercising and spending time with my kids

thing I think about is that there's like this also vacuum of leadership right now in the Democratic Party and kind of, it doesn't even, I don't even need to define it politically. I can just say like the people who are concerned and opposed to what we're seeing happen out there but what's also exciting about that is that It's it leaves space for people to emerge. Yes. It's not preordained or predetermined Yes, I live in Washington and I have a television show. I can't tell you who's gonna be the presidential nominee I have no idea Yeah

Because the country decides it and people are going to be emerged and we. I have no idea. Because the country decides it. And people are going to be emerged and we're going to see people when we think, wow, that person's magical. That person has a thing. They make sense. And that is, it is a very alarming time we're in. But I also think that is an interesting part. And maybe like a hopeful part of the moment we're into is sort of who and what will emerge from this moment. I've talked, you know, Chris Hays has been on the show, Rachel's been on the show a couple of times, and I have talked to them about, and I think especially with you, it's maybe even more sort of like the question is even more apt to you, is that how, how sort of complicated is your relationship with doing your job, informing people, and then also putting

food on the table for the network, getting eyes on, you know, because part of the, the reason I bring up the email is because there was, and I mean, I know you didn't write the email, but there's somebody at MSNBC that's crowing about how we're killing it on Tick Tock, which is like, it's just it's weird reading it. It's like I said to my wife when I read the email, I said, it's like a hospital saying we had the most patients during Covid. You know, it's well, well, to be fair, I like that. I mean, Tick Tock is still where people under a certain.

I know, I understand. And I don't even say that's that person's job. That's like I'm I'm still an occasional television professional. And I know that's how it works. But it's like I was trying to make people laugh. And there would be times where they'd be like, you got to get more people to watch. And I'd be like, well, I don't know. I'm just I just got to do what I do. And I imagine, you know, in your case, like, you got to get more people to watch. And I'd be like, well, I don't know. I'm just I just got to do what I do. And I imagine, you know, in your case, too, you got to do what you do.

But I mean, but how much pressure are you under by people who are like, get eyes on this thing? No, not in that way. Look, media, as you know, is a business. Right. And people will tell you ratings and numbers are imperfect in a million ways. We don't have to have a whole exploration of Nielsen and how it works. But it's crazy now that we're another condo. Yes.

Because there's no answer to it. It's like it's totally. Yeah, I have my friends, your friends. I'm sure like I'm going to watch the show. I'm like, it doesn't matter. You know, it's like whatever. But but so, you know, that's a reality, right? And if nobody watches my new show,

then I probably won't have a new show any year, right? But what I've also learned, and this is another thing that's taken me, and I mean, I've been here for like a little bit over two years, and some of the people you've talked to a bunch of times have been doing this a lot longer than me and have given me great advice over the course of time.

It's like, the only, the thing that translates or that you got to be focused on is the authenticity of who you are, right? right and for me it's like um If you just can focus on like what can I do? What do I uniquely bring to the table to discuss today? Right. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what I that's that's what I have to keep thinking about Now it's also true about the TikTok thing. I hear you. I have been the author of many of these types of emails over the course of time, you know, as people, but what's also true is that there has to be you have to have an awareness.

We all do of the way people are consuming information has changed. Again, I mean, it just it's it's a funny thing. TikTok is a funny word, but I, and I, and I don't mean it to be demeaning in any way because shit, I'd love to be killing it on TikTok. That would be good for me to be killing it on. Maybe you would kill it on TikTok. All right. After we hang up, after we hang up, it doesn't be a dancing video, you know, no one wants me to dance on a TikTok video either. What I mean by that is like, you know, I think what's different about this moment, and I

know, and entertainment TV may be the same, you can tell me, is like, you can't, my shows at nine will be at nine o'clock. It's like at 10 to one, I can't then just not engage in any way with the audience, right? Until nine o'clock the next day. Of course, of course. It's like, what does that look like? Is it like we're having a conversation, you're gonna send me questions,

I'm gonna answer them on Instagram or I don't know. It's like, and who knows what the platforms are, they may be different in five years. I just think what's changed is there's this expectation of informal engagement and it's not like everybody's just like waiting for it to be talked at on television. Even though that moment is still an important part of what we all do of course, right? What do you what do you see for yourself going forward? I mean you've got

The briefing with Jen Psaki. It'll be on MSNBC Tuesday, May 6th, and it'll be Tuesdays through Friday at 9 p.m Eastern 6 p.m. PT. And Rach is going back to just Mondays. I know, which I know people are in mourning over her. Right, right, right. But she's going to do lots of great projects and I promise we will continue to talk about a lot of things she's passionate about. You know, I think for me, with the show, there's so many aspects of life.

So I'll just start with the show because you just mentioned the show. Sure. For me, I think what I wanted focus on doing is in this moment when government is being completely dismantled, when people are genuinely concerned and worried around the country about what it all means for them, I want to be a place where I can help explain what's going on and how it impacts them.

Right? One of the things I think a lot of people lost the thread on in 2024, politicians with media too, is like, what does it have to do with people sitting at home watching? Right? It's not just like, Donald Trump is terrible. It's like, what does it mean for you? Right? Yeah. And the other part of it is I think who is actually fighting against these forces that are so concerning this moment. It's not good enough.

And I mean, for democratic politicians, aspiring ones, anybody to just say, this is bad. People want to know what are you doing about it? And so to me, it's like, how can I dive into my 20 years of nerdy experience at all these tables and on campaign buses and help use that to explain it to people? And that's what I'm focused on with the show and TikTok. Obviously, I'm just going to incorporate TikTok in, you know, I'm just kidding. And I think part of that that I hope to do on the show is like telling the story of the Democratic Party to and what's happening there

It's a it's in a bit of disarray, right? It's there's not a clear leader, but that's an interesting story. Who are the next leaders? What are the grassroots movements? What does it look like? What should we be watching? Where are their disagreements? Which by the way disagreement is healthy Yeah, that's part of what I hope to do too. And also I'll be back, I'll have my weekends back with my kids, which they could care less about what I'm ever doing professionally. They want to know how it impacts them and their lives. They just want to know who's going to drive them to ice skating. Who's driving them, who's hosting the sleepover.

So that will be a pure joy in my life too. Yeah. What's the most important thing you've learned over the years? Either as a human being or politico or a human politico? I think one of the most important things I've learned across all those things I think is that listening is an undervalued skill set. And it's true professionally, but I've learned that as being a parent,

that before I was a parent, you worry about so many things. You're just so stressed about what it's going to be like. What I've learned is, if I can give my seven-year-old son 20 minutes of undivided attention and focus on whatever it is is going on. And maybe it is a Lego thing. Maybe it is any variety of balls.

He wants to bounce around my house outside. Yeah. That is invaluable. It's like that your presence. And this is true with kids. It's true in life is almost the greatest gifts that you can give for anyone. Right. Because we're all so, you know, it's like Chris's new book, um, the sirens

con, if you talk to him about that or not, but it's like, it's an attention atmosphere where everybody there's 20 things asking for your attention and that being present and, uh, with people in your life, people you work with, people, you, your loved ones, Um, and listening is probably one of the most undervalued things I think people can do. Well, Jen, thank you so much. Thank you. Um, let me just go through these things. Uh, your book, say more lessons from work, the white house and the world, uh, came out last year. I imagine people can still buy that. The paperbacks coming out cheaper version next. Nice.

There you go. Yeah. Wait a minute people. Buy the paperback. Wasteless, costless. And then of course, the briefing with Jan Sake will be on every weeknight. You know, for me, it's the six o'clock show, but for everyone else, it's the nine o'clock, which just seems impossible.

I can't believe people are up at nine still watching TV. I'm getting into bed at that hour. Me too. So I'm going to really have to adjust my life for that. You are. Yeah. And there's also the podcast, The Blueprint with Jen Psaki, where you sort of, it's kind of more specifically about the Democrats and sort of, and figuring out what they're of more specifically about the Democrats and sort of, and figuring out what they're up to and the eternal question, will the olds let the youngs do what the youngs need to do? A never-ending question. It sure is. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I know, you know, what a high pressure day you have.

And not at all. I appreciate it. have and not at all. And I appreciate it. Break your legs on the new one and the continuation of the old one, whatever it is. And, and that's it. And thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. And I'll be back next week with more of The Three Questions. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel. Executive produced by Nick Leow, Adam Sacks, and Jeff Ross. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Battista, with assistance from Maddy Ogden.

Research by Alyssa Grahl. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe to the Three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts. And do you have a favorite question you always like to ask people? Let us know in the review section. -♪ Can't you tell my love's a-growing? Can't you feel it ain't a-showing? Oh, you must be a-knowing

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