The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 217: OCCASIONALLY – A Chat with Gary Sinise on the 20th Anniversary of 9/11

Episode Date: September 11, 2021

Mike sits down with his "professional big brother," to discuss the relevance of 9/11, twenty years after the attack on America.

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ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. Hey, guys, it's Mike Rowe. This is the way I heard it. Episode number 217. This is an occasionally. And the occasion is the 20th anniversary of 9-11. And my guest is Gary Seneas.

The very talented and very successful actor who has dedicated his life to not only remembering the events of 9-11, but to helping countless wounded veterans who came back from the wars that followed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I wanted to talk to Gary today for a couple reasons. First of all, and somewhat selfishly,

I've always considered him to be my professional big brother. Ever since Dirty Jobs became a thing, I have tried to leverage my role on that show into a foundation that might do some good in the real world. Well, Gary did the same thing with his role, in Forrest Gump, and I have always wanted to talk to him about how he balanced his career with his foundation and his celebrity with his philanthropy. But also, I wanted to talk to him today about the most difficult 9-11 since 9-11. Speaking only for myself, if you had told me

10 years ago or 5 years ago, or even 5 weeks ago, that America would leave Afghanistan in the fashion we just did, or that the Taliban would be back in power today, I'd have said you were hallucinating. But we did, and they are, and that makes remembering this anniversary even more challenging and more frustrating and more painful than ever before. Because now, 20 years after the attacks that started the war, we just concluded, and in the wake of 13 more heartbreaking fatalities just a few weeks ago in Kabul. A lot of Americans are asking themselves the same question. Was it worth it? Well, I don't have an answer to that question, but shortly after the withdrawal began, I put the same question to Travis Mills, a former staff sergeant who made it back alive,

but left his arms and his legs in Afghanistan. Now, if you haven't listened to that conversation, you really should, because listening to Travis Mills' talk is guaranteed to make you feel better. Not about the way we left Afghanistan, but about the reason we went in. Because Travis Mills doesn't possess an ounce of regret or self-pity. To this day, in spite of his grievous wounds, he still loves this country, and he is committed to doing all he can to serve it. In fact, he's dedicated his life to helping other wounded vets get their lives back. And just listening to him talk is a reminder of what America is when we're at our best. Well, the same is true of Gary Seneas. For nearly 40 years, Gary has advocated on behalf of

America's service members. He began back in the early 80s by supporting Vietnam veteran groups in the Chicago area. And then into the 90s with his portrayal of Lieutenant Dan and Forrest Gump. But it really wasn't until 9-11 that Gary's mission came into focus. In 2003, he formed the Lieutenant Dan Band. They began entertaining troops serving at home and abroad. Along the way, he served as the national spokesperson for the American Veterans Disabled for Life Memorial. He's raised all kinds of money for the Pentagon 9-11 Memorial and the Brooklyn Wall of Remembrance in New York City, which is incredible. He also serves on the President's Advisory Group for the Congressional Medal of Honor Foundation, the Community Council for Hope for the Warriors, and the Tragedy Assistance Program for

survivors. Then, in 2011, he took things up a notch and established the Gary Sinise Foundation and began this never-ending quest to serve and honor America's veterans, first responders, and Gold Star families. What he's done since is nothing short of remarkable, including the construction of 77 custom homes for wounded veterans like Travis. In recognition of his humanitarian work, Gary has earned many distinguished honors, which I promised him I wouldn't dwell on. Point being, I know of no other actor who has leveraged his celebrity the way Gary Sinise has, or put his money where his mouth is time and time again, or donated more of his time to a cause he holds dear. I just wanted you to hear what he has to say about this date.

A date we must never forget, no matter how hard it is to remember. This is not a political conversation or a critique of any administration, past or present. It's just an honest chat with a grateful American on a very difficult day about the men and women he is committed to serving. And it all starts right now. Why don't you just start counting down from a thousand right now as we talk? That'll be great. Do you want me to keep my mic open while I do that? Dude, I'd like you to wait in the car.

Are you good? No, we're all good. What's your granddaughter up to? Well, I got to take her for ice cream as soon as I'm done. All right. Well, look, that'll make this simple. So 45 minutes and out. Last thing we're going to get in the way of is you and your granddaughter's ice cream.

No, we're good. She's good. So, Gary, let me ask you, is the place where you are now, is that where the flagpole is in what looks like the backyard, where I saw you on Twitter last week? week? Yes. I got to say, Chuck, I don't know if you noticed this, but he, Gary put out a tweet, lowered the flag to half staff, and talked extemporaneously for a couple of minutes after that nightmare in Afghanistan. And once again, Gary, I just, I watched it and I shook my head and I

thought, yep, yep, I should have done that. That's exactly the right thing to do on Twitter. Oh, well, that day, Mike, I was making a speech down in San Francisco. San Diego. You know, I was driving down to San Diego and listening to the news. And the casualty reports started coming in. And it started at like four were killed by a bomb and then six were killed. And now it was up to eight. And then by the time I got to San Diego, it was up to 13. And the speech was very emotional. And obviously, I rejigged it some, you know, to incorporate what was happening on the day. And then I, when I drove home and got home,

changed my clothes and told my son-in-law to bring his phone out, and I just went to the flag. I just wanted to do something. Well, you did it. And look, like millions of other Americans, I don't know you as well as I think I do. I mean, I feel like I have a very good sense of who you are as a man and as an American. And that's part of why we reached out.

I also reached out, honestly, because I've always looked at you as sort of my professional older brother with respect. I mean, I think you've got a couple years on me, maybe a few. And your career, while far greater than mine, and your foundation, while far larger than mine, have always interested me so much because there seems to have been a point in the evolution of, Gary Sinise where where your mission sort of eclipsed your, well, your celebrity. And I don't know, maybe I'm just projecting things, but I saw all of that in the video you posted. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No question about that. Frustrated and sad, terribly, terribly sad for the families. We have 22 wounded from that, and now we have 13 new Gold Star families from that event, and very tragically, they are suffering right now,

and my foundation is full-time with this kind of thing and trying to reach out and support wherever we could. And so, you know, I mean, you can just imagine me driving down, and every time Jennifer Griffin or somebody came on the news and report, reported a new casualty report. I just, I was, by the time I got to San Diego, I was really very, very upset about it. Very, very unfortunate. And I just, I was emotional. And I wanted people to know that I was grieving for those families.

And I wanted those families to know that they are in my heart. And then just a short time later, we had a helicopter going. down off the coast of San Diego. We're reaching out to those families now. We're trying to do what we can to support there. And it's just, you know, it's something that's ongoing. It's part of my life and everything. But the Afghanistan thing really, really upset me. And made me, made me very disheartened about the whole thing. Well, it's a, it's a hard thing to talk about and to articulate, because on the one hand, I think 9-11 is the most significant date in the country, certainly in our lifetimes, at least it ought to be.

And you've been on a mission to keep that front and center in people's lives. And so it's got to be very, very strange right now in this environment where so many people are committed to never forgetting. and yet we're so maybe distracted is the wrong word, but there's so many other things sucking up our attention. How do you keep it top of mind, not just on the anniversary, but year-round? Yeah, you're right.

I mean, you know, these news cycles are so fast all the time. You know, we'll be focused on one thing for very intensely for a second and then boom, you know, it's gone the next day, something replaces it and then there's something else. But this particular event was so galvanizing for me in changing my life and sending me on a mission to serve. And it was in my book, A Grateful American, I write about this very specifically as a very significant turning point toward service work in trying to find some aviourable.

some action that I could take that would help kind of heal a broken heart. And I was very, very broken after that awful day, 20 years ago today. And I just needed to do something. And so it, because it was so significant in that way, and it spawned a series of support activities and events. the eventual creation of my foundation about 10 years ago, it is ever present in my heart and my mind. And I have, you know, we all know people that were affected personally by that, you know, lost friends and family members and whatnot. And I certainly have those important people in my life that have inspired me and motivated me to continue to try to keep that, those memories alive.

I don't think we can ever forget the significance of what happened that day, nor should we, nor should the world. It was a world-altering event. And certainly, you know, I just viewed it from afar. You know, I was sitting on my television set in Los Angeles watching things unfold that day. But since that time, I befriended so many people that were personally affected and that were down on the pile and that were, you know, had, were searching. the rubble and all of that awful stuff that happened post the attack. And they have continued to just motivate me and inspire me to try to do something in honor and memory of all those who were lost and the people that were affected by that. But Gary, it's such a curious thing.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't remember where they were when they got the news 20 years ago. but it's a very short list of people who took that feeling and took that memory and decided to either reimagine their life or take a new course of action. This was a, I mean, it was certainly a turning point. In fact, I think there's a chapter in your book that talks about this, but there are also other turning points. And that's really what I wanted to get at with you. I don't fully understand how a guy at this point in his career makes the transition from, you know,

Steppenwolf and a stage actor and eventually a movie star and a TV star and a musician and all of these other things. Were you a frog in the boiling water or did it really happen like that? Well, I know, I don't think it happened just, you know, bang, you know, all of a sudden I was over here. there were seeds along the way that were planted years ago. A lot of veterans in my own family, Vietnam veterans on my wife's side of the family. I have a piece out today on our website, garycenease Foundation.org. That really is a reflection of where I was 20 years ago and what has kind of happened since and the circumstance and the steps along the way that led me here.

I will say that back then fear was. was a big factor. We were all upset. The images were haunting and awful and nightmarish that replayed in our minds over and over and over. And they did with me. I was not sleeping well. I was upset. My stomach hurt. I had young children at the time. And I was very, very fearful as to what the world was going to be doing. I write about this in this piece. You know, remember, I mean, were there more airplanes? Did the terrorists have nuclear weapons and suitcases? Andthrax is all of a sudden a week later, anthrax is going through the mail and people are opening up their mailboxes and getting sick. Five people died from that anthrax domestic terrorist

attack. You know, that made me very, very fearful as to what the world, where the world was going at that time. If 19 terrorists could train right under our noses to crash airplanes into buildings, and we taught them how to do that, you know, what was next? What was coming next? And I had young children, and I was very fearful for them in the world that they were going to grow up in. And so taking action to try to be a part of the defense, a part of the solution, a part of helping those who were responding to those attacks by going off and joining the service or deploying to Afghanistan, Iraq, all that kind of thing, going to the hospitals where the wounded were trying to reach out to Gold Star families that were all of a sudden we had people getting killed in Afghanistan.

Then, you know, a couple years later in Iraq and we were losing people. I just wanted to be part of the team. And once I started doing it, Mike, I mean, it just kind of snowballed. It just, you know, I found that, okay, I'm doing little things on my own here. Now I'm going to reach out to these nonprofits that are in this space trying to help our veterans, and I'll reach out to them and try to help them to raise money, raise awareness, all that kind of thing. And then once people saw me doing it, I'd get asked to come and I just wanted to help. So I ended up supporting maybe 25 or 30 military, you know, support nonprofits.

and I was kind of spreading myself all over the place. And eventually, I realized, okay, you know, after 10 years of doing that, I was in the game for good. So now it's time to start my own organization, capitalize on all the good things that I've learned and the inspiration that came with working with a lot of different people who were also galvanized by that tragic event into action and took up the charge and tried to do something in response. And those people inspired me, and I started my foundation. And here we are 10 years later. We've built up a good reputation where we got a lot of support

and we're doing a lot of good things out there. Not good, great. And I'm not just blowing sunshine. It's Googling your name and reading down the endless things, right? There's so many foundations. There's so many 501c3s. I've got one myself. And I spent the last three years doing a show on Facebook called Returning the Favor, where I interviewed dozens and dozens of these people. And the best ones, interestingly, and you just reminded me of this when you talked about why you initially started to do this. And tell me if I got it wrong, but it sounded like what you said was the best way for you to stay sane for yourself. the best way for you to help yourself was to go out and help the first responders. So you're doing a very kind, decent thing that you get a lot of credit for doing.

But, and again, I find this in so many people who wound up starting their own nonprofits, they began doing it, frankly, to save themselves because they didn't know what else to do. And they were either scared or lost or heart sick. and they needed to fix themselves somehow. It's a bit like the oxygen masks coming down in the airplane, and the first thing you have to do is put yours on. Otherwise, what help can you be to anybody around you? Was there some of that?

Yes, yes, Mike, no question about it. I mean, like I said, my heart was just breaking. And I remember that day driving through one of the canyons out here and listening to the radio. you know, I couldn't get, I couldn't stop listening or watching, you know, it was just, I was wanting to know more about what was happening on a daily basis. And the more we learned, you know, the more difficult it became. And so, again, I was fearful for my family and fearful for my country. And just, just remember those images.

I mean, it's just awful thinking of the people that were stuck in the, the burning towers having to make a choice. And I mean, it was just, just awful, awful. And I needed to heal in some way. So service can be a great healer. And I reached out where I could and tried to do that. Do do do do do do. Dum. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth? You find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time. Do you Do you miss the rotary phone? Well, get over it. The genie is out of the bottle.

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slash mike. That's netsweet.com. I thought I was watching a movie. I was downtown in Wall Street. the day before, September 10th, 2001. I flew out that afternoon. I came home, and I went to bed late and woke up and flicked on the TV. And I honestly, I must have looked at it for maybe a minute, which seems like a much longer period of time with absolutely no understanding. Like on the one hand, I could see what I was looking at, but none of it was sinking in.

And the moment it sunk in, my first call actually was to the guy right next to you on my screen. I called Chuck. And you were in L.A. right, Chuck? Yeah, yeah. I was in L.A. and dead asleep and was wondering why you were calling me so early. How did that call go? Do you even remember? Yeah. You said, are you watching TV? And I'm like, no, I'm not watching TV. I'm asleep. And you said, we'll turn it on. And I'm like, why? And you were like, just turn it on. And I'm like, can't I do it later? No, do it now. what channel, any channel?

I'm like, what is going on, Mike? And you go, we're at war, and you hung up. And that got my attention. How did you, I mean, obviously you must remember, was it a TV? Was it a friend? What was it for you, Gary? Yeah, my wife came in and said my buddy was on the phone from New York. and one of my co-founders of Steppenwolf Theater.

He lives in New York, and he called, and he had already told her to turn on the TV, so she put me on the phone and went to the television. And then the television came on, and he said the same thing. You know, we were under attack. Planes hit the Trade Center, and that turned the whole life in a different direction.

Yeah, amazing. Yeah. You know what else was amazing? Listening to you just now tell that story how you were, how you were glued to it, horrified by it, but unable to turn away. You know, it's such a strange combination. And yet here we are 20 years later. And you're driving down to San Diego, you know, hearing the reports of this explosion. And it's the same damn thing. It's like three, six, nine. You can't stop listening because you don't know where it's going to end. And so, you know, that's the hell of it. For me, it's the thing that we ought not forget. When you're in the thick of it, it's just hard to know how you're going to get through to the other side. Look, the fact that 20 years later, the terrorists now control Afghanistan again is just, I don't even want to get started on that.

Well, you know what? I'm sorry. We don't have to. It's so weird because this isn't a political podcast, and fundamentally, I think you and I both work pretty hard to stay in our lane, right? Yeah. I'll tell you, man, I called Chuck right after the Afghanistan. The second guy I called, I called Chuck and said, I want to get Travis Mills on here. And of course, you know Travis, right?

Yes, we built a house for him. I mean, here I am patting myself on the back, because I put him on the TV and help talk. about his foundation, but you built the guy a house. You built him a house, Gary. Listen, the stuff he did with you, he just absolutely loved, loved everything about it. He's a funny, wonderful guy. I met him in the hospital, and, you know, then we ended up doing a house for him. Yeah, but, I mean, surely there's some connective tissue in there. I mean, to review the last sentence you just laid on me, I met him in the hospital, and then and we built a house for him. You have a way of summing up incredibly amazing events as though

this is what logically happens when a nice guy meets another guy in the hospital and wants to do so. We just built a house for him. How many houses have you built for guys like Travis? When I started it, it was, see, there were five quadruple amputees back then. Travis Mills, as you know, was a quadruple amputee. But there were a few guys who came, before Travis and the first one is a guy named Brendan Morocco. He was blown up in Iraq and lost his arms and legs. And he's from Staten Island and I had done, let's see, he was blown up in 2009. I had raised money to build a memorial to all the 9-11 first responders in New York City called the Brooklyn Wall of Remembrance. And I did a big concert at Brooklyn College in 2007.

and this wall, you can look it up, the Brooklyn Wall of Remembrance. It has the faces of all 416 first responders, plus the face of Father Michael Judge, the fire department chaplain who was killed, plus a canine who was killed on 9-11. And they wanted to build this memorial, and I helped them raise the money to do that. And when I was in New York,

knowing that I was playing, concerts and raising money and stuff. They came to me to tell me about Brendan Morocco, who had been in the hospital, blown up in Iraq in April of 2009. Well, I'd already been to the hospital, and I saw Brandon, and I met his mother, and I was there just a couple of weeks after he arrived from Germany. So I knew of him. He was from Staten Island and the local folks in New York.

I was shooting CSI, New York there. And, you know, I knew all these firefighters and the commissioners. or the fire department. They wanted to build him a house. They came to my set of CSI, New York, and said, we got a quadruple amputee. We want to build a home for him. And I said, what's his name? And they told me, and I said, I know him. I met him. Absolutely. I'll do a concert. I ended up doing a concert. And then there was another quadruple amputee, a Marine named Todd nicely, who was blown up shortly after that. I ended up doing a concert to build a house for Todd to raise the money for that.

There was another quadruple amputee Marine named John Peck. I ended up building a house for him, raising the money to do that. And then Travis, and then another one right after Travis named Taylor Morris. So we ended up building five houses for five quadruple amputees, and that started me on the home building thing. And since then, I think we just recently gave away our 73rd house. I think, just recently. Wow.

But I know what you mean about Travis. You were saying, you know, you called up Travis because he's an Afghanistan veteran, and he'd been, he'd lost both, he left both his arms and legs in Afghanistan. And here we are 20 years later and the Taliban takes over again. So your impulse was right. I've reached out to him and many, many Afghanistan veterans that I know. Some very, very badly wounded. Others have received a Medal of Honor and, you know, different veterans along the way that I've met.

And I was on with one yesterday. I get to make these wonderful calls to let these veterans know that they're going to get one of our homes. And I got to make that call yesterday to one of our veterans who lives up in Idaho. What was that like? I can't even, I can't even, we were throwing a little surprise party. on returning the favor. We were giving people, you know, $20,000 and $30,000 prizes to help keep doing what they were doing to build a man a home that he can actually live in. I hope you're recording them, honestly, because I can't imagine a more gratifying thing to do in my dotage than to look

back at the calls I made like that. Well, I can't, I don't know that I've recorded any of them. It's really kind of a personal call that I make. I mean, we do a lot of outreach to a lot of veterans and help them with a lot of different things. And occasionally our team will record what we call the good news calls, you know. And just to hear what the veteran has to say and to be able to let the people know who are supporting our foundation that is really making a difference and really lifting somebody up. I called a particular veteran yesterday, an Afghanistan veteran. And, you know, I spent most of the call just talking to him about Afghanistan and how he was feeling and what are his buddies feeling that served there.

And I talked to talk to him for quite a while about that. And then I let him know, well, here's another reason why I'm calling. We want to go forward with your project and build a home for you. And buried the lead. Yeah, yeah, I did. Well, I wanted, first I wanted him to know that his service in Afghanistan meant something to me, and it wasn't for not. You know, it wasn't something that he or his fellow Afghanistan buddies who served there, some who are still serving in the armed forces, you know, after 20 years and what has happened. There were a lot of positive things that our presence there manifested, you know, without our presence there, there,

where freedom for a new generation of Afghanistan wouldn't have been possible. And there are many, many Afghan citizens now who have no memory of the Taliban way back when. They've grown up free. I mean, if you look at, I write about this in my article today. The USAID alone has helped support over 9 million young Afghan people. students going to school. In the beginning, 20 years ago, it was something like 8 or 900,000 young males were going to school, but women weren't going to school at all. And over the years, millions have gone to school that would never have had that opportunity. You know, it's a sad fact

that this freedom that they've known all these years and the things that they've been able to do with the U.S. and coalition presence there may, you know, will it return or not? I hope one day that freedom shines on the Afghan people once again. But the men and women who served in the U.S. armed forces helped make that possible. And we have not had an attack on the United States launched, executed, or planned from the mountains of Afghanistan in 20 years. and that's because we were there. It's also because we remember. You know, you and I weren't walking around the planet when Pearl Harbor happened,

but I'm guessing that you still sort of remember it. For me, anyway, my family and friends helped sear that into my, I think the Germans call it Verchmaltz. You know, it's a memory of its. time you didn't actually live through, but it's nevertheless present in your in your memory. And I think, you know, how many millions of Americans are walking around today who weren't even born 20 years ago? So it's, you can't blame them for not remembering they weren't there. On the other hand, it has to be somebody's responsibility to impress upon them the magnitude of that

day. If for no other reason, Gary, just by way of comparison, to look at the country on September 12th, 2001, look at the way we were united. I still remember Democrats and Republicans arm and arms singing, God bless America, you know, within 24 hours of this thing. And that today feels about as distant and impossible as anything. And I wonder if part of it is because back then we really knew who the enemy was. We understood that. I'm not so sure what we know today or understand. Yeah, you know, Mike, I recently saw a video that New York City first responder, Tim Brown, did.

He spoke at something called a Steamboat Institute, and he told his story of the day. and I know Tim not well but through my FDMI associations and things and I wrote Tim a letter and I said you know I've spent a lot of time with Pearl Harbor survivors we have done multiple events with them we take World War II veterans and one of the things my foundation does we we take World War II veterans down to the National World War II Museum and New Orleans. and we do all kinds of things with them. And I've had the privilege to spend, you know, good quality time with surviving Pearl Harbor veterans. On the 70th anniversary, we took 75 Pearl Harbor veterans back to Pearl Harbor, and I spent three or four days with them there. And they are constantly telling the stories of the day.

Yes. That day lives with them in eternity. and for all time. And they replay that for people constantly. And I wrote to Tim after I saw this speech that he made telling his story. And I said, Tim, it reminds me of that, the World War II veterans that were there on the day, who survived, who saw the bombs come down, who saw the destruction, who saw the death, who experienced it and survived to live and tell those stories so that we don't forget,

that's what you're doing. And I hope our, you know, the firsthand accounts of the eyewitnesses that were there on the day, trying to rescue people and save people and saw those things happen, I hope they never stop reminding our generations that come after. what happened on that day and the significance of that day. And unbelievable, unbelievably, is they don't really teach this stuff to our kids in our high schools. They learn very little about September 11th. And they learn actually very little. I mean, I can't speak for every single school across the country. Of course, there are teachers there that are really tuned into making

sure our younger generations really understand the significance of Pearl Harbor and World War II to the way we live today. But as a part of the curriculum, I mean, to give it maybe three or four days or something like that, an event like that, and to barely scratch September 11, 2001 and the significance of what happened there, that's very sad to me. So I think, you know, people that witnessed, people that know, people that care, people that were impassioned to do something because of those events, they should continue to tell those stories. And as I said, I write about the significance of September 11th to my personal life and what it did for me or to me and how it changed the course of my life as a very, very significant event that I never want to forget.

Isn't it ironic that today, given the technology we all have at our fingertips, including the ability to have this phone call, to Google any image, to view endless miles of videotape where the living proof of a thing is right in front of us, if you go back, I mean, what you just described has been the great challenge of civilized life to remember, you know, and whether you're sitting in a circle around a campfire telling the story of your elders and passing those stories on, when you think about the effort and the difficulty of doing that very thing from the beginning of bipedal exploration to the last hundred years and then compare it to the ease with which we can reflect today, it's incredible.

But what's heartbreaking is how disinterested we. become in what feels like some kind of horrible correlation to the ease with which we could do the thing. So it's like the easier it becomes to Google 9-11 and take a deep dive, the less interested we are in doing it. And that's what worries me. And that's why I think that the exponential effect of what you're doing, it's not just 77 or 78 homes that you're building. That's building for these people. It's the way that's going to be remembered if we have the foresight to look back at it and say, look, this is all part of the story too. And Gary, you're telling the story better and more consistently than any other human I know. Oh, thank you, Mike. I'll tell you,

I write about this pretty significantly in my book. As I said, there were steps along the way that kind of led to my advocacy being more of a full-time commitment than, you know, a balance between trying to find a movie part and going off to play a concert on a military base or something like that. But one thing that I really talk about quite a lot are the Vietnam veterans that I know that are in my family and that I engage with back in the 70s and 80s, who really were kind of a link between what happened to them and what we don't want to happen to our veterans today. Yes.

You know, I was in high school. The last year of the draft was 1973. And I was graduating from high school around that period of time. So I was in high school all the way through the most terrible part of the Vietnam War. Casualties, 500 to 1,000 casualties a week coming home in body bags from Vietnam. It was on the television all the time. My parents were deathly afraid that I was going to be dragged. and, you know, because it was just a bad news all the time.

And I remember high school being aware of it, but girls and my guitar and my playing Cerno de Bergerac or whatever it was, that was all taken all my time and all my energy and all my thought and focus and concentration. So it was this thing that was happening to somebody else. And it was, but I was busy. And then just a short time after graduating and starting my theater company, I met the woman who would become my wife, Moira Harris, and we fell in love.

And her two brothers were Vietnam veterans and her sister's husband was a combat medic in Vietnam. So here's three Vietnam veteran family members. that all of a sudden I'm meeting and talking to and learning from, and they are giving me a real earful of what it was like to serve in Vietnam and to come home to getting spit on and getting shouted at and to having to take your uniform off because you don't want anybody to know you were in the service and all that stuff. I've got buddies who had bags of crap thrown at them, you know, when they're walking through the airport.

I mean, bags of crap, you know, real, literally. And one of my buddies never forgot that. I mean, the images of being treated like that when they came home from getting bullets, you know, having bullets shot at them, were almost as significant in their life to what happened in battle, you know, is the way they were treated when they came home. And I know very specifically that that was just solidified my intense commitment to ensuring that our Afghanistan and Iraq veterans would be treated properly when they came home and would have the services that they needed when they were injured. and going to the hospitals, and I made it a point to just get very, very active with regards to that. And if you recall, Mike, and I write about this specifically, but I don't get really deep in the weeds on it. 2004, 2005, right around in there, you got Abu Ghraib and the prison.

And you've got 15 idiots guarding the Iraqi prisoners who took those awful pictures. and they became the face of the American military. They became the thing that our media was focused on. And if you remember Ted Kennedy getting up on the floor of the Senate, and he said, Abu Ghraib used to be under Saddam Hussein, torturing the prisoners and everything. Well, now it's under new management. And he said,

And now the United States military has that, and we're just as bad as Saddam Hussein. Look how we're treating everybody. And those pictures were on the cover of the Times and the Washington. They just couldn't print those pictures enough, and they became the face of the military. And I know for a fact that that activated me in a way, because I had been to Iraq twice by that time already. and I saw schools being rebuilt by our troops. They took me out to visit right near Balad Iraq, which is about 40 or 50 miles away from Baghdad.

They took me to see these refurbished schools. And we got out of the car and the children just ran up to the soldiers and were hugging the soldiers and were so friendly with the soldiers. And I saw these kids just, I walked into a classroom and they had told. the kids how to scream Lieutenant Dan at me. And I walked in and all these Iraqi kids, they don't know what they were saying, but they shouted it at me. And, you know, it was a great day to see the cooperation and the care that are between the Iraqi children and our soldiers. And I could see the soldiers just, you know, who have kids of their own, just wanting to help so badly. And then

you come home and it's all about Abu Ghraib and everything else and everything's, and everything's failing and falling apart. And I knew that the road we were going down was very similar to Vietnam. Yeah. My guest today, Tom Olbenis, is an American giant. And I'll tell you why. Tom understands on a fundamental level that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making. things. American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it. They sourced

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com slash Mike. American Giant, American Maid. American Giant, American Maid. You know, to what happened to our Vietnam veterans. You know, all our Vietnam veterans became the face of Lieutenant Callie. That's right. And the Mili Massacre.

Of course. And every single, every single one of them became, you know, somebody who killed civilians and just did it crazily out there. And the parallels were very significant. And I just activated. So I remember calling up my publicist and saying, get me on television so that I can go show pictures of our soldiers with these kids. And I can show video of our soldiers with these kids at these schools. that our soldiers have helped to refurbish and rebuild. And I want people to know about that because right now it seems like all they're getting is

bad news, bad news, bad news. I remember doing an interview with ABC News. And I said to the, off camera, I said to the guy, why aren't you reporting some of the things I'm telling you about? And he said, well, I don't know. Bad news sells. Of course. If it leads, it leads.

Yeah, that's what they said. And I remember we had a school ship. I came home and started a school supply program called Operation Iraqi Children. We started shipping hundreds of thousands of school supply kits to our troops, and they would take them out in these villages all around the country and give them to the kids. And I remember we had a supply run where a convoy was taking our supplies to a school, and they videotaped it. And actually, one of the news networks, I won't say which one,

actually followed the convoy and went to the school to see what they were doing. And it was beautiful. You know, here's these supplies and our soldiers giving them to the kids and all that stuff and all that was recorded. And then the convoy left and was attacked on the way back to the base. Gunfight. Cameras roll. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Soldiers hitting the dirt and gunfight going off. Cameras are rolling. So what do you think made the evening news that night? Was it the school supplies or was it the gunfight? Right. Right. You know. Anyway, all that to say, I didn't want to see what happened to our Vietnam veterans happened to today's Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.

And so I activated myself and went out to try to do something. Well, to try and frame it in terms of gratitude, which I know is important to you. I know it's the theme of your book. It's also, for what it's worth, the number one tenant on the sweat pledge that everybody who applies for a scholarship in my foundation needs to sign. The way I put it was, I've won the greatest lottery of all time. I walk the earth. I live in America. Above all things, I'm grateful. So if you can't agree with that, then nothing else is going to fall neatly in the place. And I read somewhere, I forget who said it, but the opposite of gratitude isn't in gratitude.

It's resentment. And I think part of what might have happened with Vietnam and part of what you don't want to see happen here with Afghanistan is the same thing that's happened with our skilled tradesmen to a certain degree. we wind up resenting the very thing we depend upon. So instead of being grateful to have a skilled workforce or to have men and women in uniform defending us in parts unknown and to have first responders, all of these things for which we should feel grateful, if we're not careful, we wind up resenting them in some way, shape, or form.

I literally see people here shaking their fist at the linemen here in Northern California who are trying to get the power back on after the power's been off for three or four days. They're blaming the linemen, right? We're blaming the construction worker for the backup on the 405. And we blame our soldiers because some policy decision put them in a situation and on and on it goes. So I think, I do think that from what I know of you, and to sum everything up that you've said so far, you're either grateful or you're not. And if you're grateful, you know, and I said this to Travis Mills too, I said, dude, you make it impossible for me to feel sorry for myself, which is annoying, but important. And so your book is a grateful American, and I know it's about you, but I can't help but wonder as you were.

writing it if you were king of the world and gratitude were a thing you could instill in everyone, would there be a greater thing to instill? I'm not sure. You know, when I started writing the book, Mike, I didn't know what it was going to be called. I didn't say, well, you know, I'm a grateful American. I'm going to write a book about that. It is. I didn't, I didn't know what it was. going to be called, but as I wrote it and as I got toward the end and I started reread it and you know, tweak it and all the things you do to get it ready, these recurring signals were coming out all the time of gratitude and grateful to be in this country, grateful for some of the things that happened, grateful for the inspirational people that I've met who have.

have changed my life, who've reminded me that we have a lot to be thankful for. Grateful to God for this beautiful family that I have. And so I realize, you know, hey, is there anybody else in Hollywood that's going to write a book and name it Grateful American? Probably not. So I'll be the one who does it. Well, it's a terrific book. I know the paperbacks on its way out soon. And I want to be respectful of your time. I know you mentioned your family. As I recall, there's a granddaughter and you've got an ice cream date and all of that's looming. But look, for me, I talk about how the headlines caught up to dirty jobs and turn that show into something that nobody really anticipated and made me weirdly relevant in ways that. that I didn't anticipate. And when I referred to you as my professional big brother, it's mostly because looking back at Forrest Gump

and seeing your portrayal of Lieutenant Dan in there, which, you know, it's not like you were on the screen a ton of the time, but it became the hinge of the whole film. And I wonder if the impact of that movie caught up to your performance. And in a way, maybe, I don't know, if not forced you, at least gave you the cards that allowed you to play the hand that ultimately transformed you into this celebrity into something, I'll just say it, a philanthropist. Did that role do it and did the headlines catch up to you? Well, first, let me say this, Mike. I love dirty jobs. Well, your taste is elevated and sophisticated, Gary.

I love that show, and that was the first time I saw you. And you showed us how America works on that show. You showed us what makes America tick. And we can never take those things for granted. We have our freedom providers, of course, our military, our security providers, our first responders, all of that. we have all the other folks that go out there and do those dirty jobs and keep America going. And I just absolutely love the show and really was happy that you were taking us there so that people could really see something, see those dirty jobs that they would never,

in a million years, ever think about or go see. So thank you for doing that show. You're welcome. And I'm glad we became friends after that. this part in the movie, I've kind of described this. And there's a, there's a, the way my book starts, Grateful American starts, is with a moment that came from playing that character, Lieutenant Dan, and the significance of that moment to what I'm doing today.

I didn't even know I was going to write an autobiography, but that's what it ended up being. I thought I was just going to write about the USO tours and, you know, stuff like that. You didn't know what you were doing. You didn't know the book you were writing. You didn't know what the title was. I didn't know. My agents encouraged me to write about the travels that I'd made in support of our military. And so I started with that.

And then I thought, well, how did I get to all that stuff? You know, how did it actually take shape in this way? So I went back to the beginning before I was born and blah, blah, blah, blah. But the significance of 1994. And Forrest Gump coming out and playing the role of the wounded Vietnam veteran was so special. And what happened there about a month after the movie came out is the disabled American veterans organization contacted me and invited me to their national convention. I didn't know who the disabled American veterans was. Didn't know anything about them.

But it's the largest advocacy group for our wounded veterans, really. And it has over two million members. And at that time, they went all the way back to World War. This is 94. So, you know, we had World War II veterans. And I went to this convention. I walked out on the stage. They wanted to give me an award for playing a wounded guy in a movie.

And they thought, hey, let's invite this guy. And let's give a, you know, he's playing a double amputee. And I think what they really liked about the story of Lieutenant Dan was the fact that at the end of the story. We had, you know, there'd been a bunch of Vietnam movies, right? There'd been casualties of war, you'll remember. There was coming home, platoon, deer hunter, apocalypse now. I mean, there were a lot of movies. Great comedies, yes. Yeah, wonderful light fare. And, you know, at the end of the films of all those, you just wondered whether those veterans were going to be okay.

You just always questioned. There was another movie called In-Country. You remember at the end of coming home, Bruce Stern swims out in the ocean. He can't take it anymore. He's done. And you just have the sense that any Vietnam veteran today was just as troubled as could be

and was unable to move beyond their war experiences. And along came Forrest Gump. And what you said is a very small little simple, story. But at the end of that story, what happens? He's standing up. Redemption. Yeah, he's, he's forgiven himself, you know. And he feels like he's been forgiven by God and that he can move on with his life. Lieutenant Dan, if you remember the story, he's, he's the platoon leader. He's the lieutenant. He's the guy in charge of 40 other people. And he walks them right into an ambush and they all get smacked. A bunch of them get killed, a bunch of them get wounded. He's also the guy whose father

and whose father's father's father's father, all died in combat. Yes, in various wars going back to the revolutionary war. So what does Lieutenant Dan want? He wants to be a great military leader. He wants to have a career in the military, or he wants to die honorably in battle beside his troops. And because of Forrest Gump, he gets hauled out of there and he's got to live with this, you know, being a Vietnam veteran in those days, and he's got to live with no legs, and he's resentful. He's very resentful, but he's mostly angry at himself. And filled with despair and post-traumatic stress and guilt. And the beauty of that, I get kind of choked up at it because it's the story that we want for every single. veteran, you know. We want them to come home and we want them to be okay. And that's why Lieutenant Dan resonated with so many veterans. I started walking into the hospitals shortly after our wounded came home from Afghanistan and Iraq. And they didn't even know my name. They just saw my face and they knew Lieutenant Dan. And they wanted to talk about that story of Lieutenant Dan.

And it's a positive story. He's standing up at the end. He's married. He's rich. He's well, you know, he's a businessman. We'd never seen that story before. with regards to a Vietnam veteran. And I think that's what the disabled American veterans wanted to salute that day, that they invited me to come. And so Lieutenant Dan has been a significant part of my reaching out to our veterans in the hospitals and across the country and overseas and trying to do some good. But my point, Gary, is, yes, it's a significant part,

but it's the part you couldn't control. It's the thing in your whole crazy odyssey that leads me to conclude that you Forrest Gumped your own way through the last 30 years. Because I say that about myself in relative terms all of the time. It's so tempting for me to look back at dirty jobs and say, ah, now, let me tell you how this plan came together, right? This was the show I was going to do to celebrate the American worker and then five years into it. our economy would tank and I would launch a foundation called MicroWorks and it would get a certain amount of notoriety blah, blah. I didn't plan any of it. I had no idea. You mean you didn't sit down and write it all out and say, okay, here's how it's going to go. I got a phone call from my mother

while I was sitting in a cubicle at CBS in 2001 impersonating a host on a show called Evening Magazine and my mother said, hey, genius, your grandfather's 91 years old before he died. wouldn't it be great if he could turn on the TV and see you doing something that looked like work? 24 hours later, I'm in the sewer with the cameraman shooting what would become the first episode of Dirty Jobs. You can't plan a phone call from your mom, right? No, no. And you can't plan for Lieutenant Dan. It happens.

And then suddenly, you know, you're being honored not because of anything that you really affirmatively did. And I say this with respect, you're being honored because you told a story or you were a part of a story that got told that wasn't a lecture or a sermon or a polemic. It was a story. And man, when you get behind a story that resonates, that's when people listen. And I, again, I'm just so fascinated by the way it happens. I did not set out. MicroWorks is 13 years old this Labor Day. You know, I'm super proud of what we're doing,

but I can't bullshit Chuck because he's on the call. He's seen it happen. He's known me for 40 years. He knows the whole thing was just a hot mess of serendipity and good luck, you know. But here we sit. You and I at this weird point in our lives. And, you know, what else can you do but look around? and say, all right, these are the cards I have.

In your case, let's build 77 houses for the bravest of the brave. Good on you, dude. I mean, there's just nothing else to say. Oh, wait a minute, I do have one more thing to say before we land the plane. You won't remember this. But in 2017, the American Legion gave me a commandant's award for basically storytelling in the media. And I was in Reno. And I got the award, and then I went and I shot a something, whatever I was doing.

And that night on social media, there you were congratulating your pal, Mike Roe, for this award. And dude, you didn't make me cry in Forrest Gump. You didn't make me cry in NCIS. But you got me that day. The tweet you sent me was so simple and so nice. And it was a picture of me accepting this award. you, my philanthropic and professional big brother thanking me publicly, that meant more than you'll know.

Well, Mike, you deserved it. I mean, that's the thing. When people are extending themselves to help somebody else and to use their platform, you know, we both are fortunate that we have, you know, a public platform that we can use to draw attention to different things, right? shine a spotlight. I've been to many of those ceremonies myself, and I always feel like, well, I'm going to go because my going there will actually shine a light on what they're trying to do. And you were doing that that day, and I wanted to shine a light on you to say,

thank you for that because it's a big deal. I just, you know, in the spirit of commiserating, I know what it feels like to be honored for something I don't think I deserve. And the first chapter in your book landed in my cortex like a lawn dart because that was exactly what you were saying. You got cast, you got paid, and you portrayed a character in a movie. And now here you are surrounded by real men and women who are conspicuously short in the leg department to the tune of two, and they're honoring you.

in the same way Travis Mills greeted me the first time we met, all he wanted to talk about was dirty jobs. All he wanted to talk about was watching that crazy show when he was in Afghanistan. What do you do with that other than feel unapologetically grateful? Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, when I first started going into the hospitals, years ago, right, Germany or wherever it was, I thought, I don't really deserve to be here, you know, I don't know, but then I could see what just showing up meant, you know, and I could see what talking about Lieutenant Dan meant to somebody else. I mean, it was different for me because I lived that. I, you know, I was in the movie and stuff like that. But I'll tell you, one quick story.

going to the hospital in Germany, Lanshto Medical Center. Back in 2003, it was my first trip to a military hospital. I knew I was going to see banged up people and I was apprehensive. I had a kind of knots in my stomach. How am I going to

deal with this? You know, how am I going to feel? And I walked into a room. The first thing that happened was I pulled up and I got out of the car and a bus wheeled up to the door, and all of a sudden soldiers started piling out of the hospital and started unloading the wounded,

who had just landed in an airplane coming in from Iraq. And I just stood there and watched our people work to get those people out of the bus and into the hospital. And it was, wow, okay, there they are. They're all wired up. They've got tubes coming out of them and everything like that. This is real now. And then they took me into a room and there were a bunch of banged up folks in there.

But they were going to get patched up and sent back to the battlefield. It was, you know, it was burns. It was scratches. It was, you know, things that were not going to keep them in the hospital and send them home. They were going to get patched up for a while and then go back. And I walked into that room and I was like, go, well, you know, there's 30 guys in here. And they're all, they've all got a thousand yards stare.

They're all quiet. It's very somber in there. Nobody's happy and everything. And then one of them looked up and saw me. I'm standing there and I'm kind of geeky with my USO hat and stuff. And one of them screamed Lieutenant Dan. And then the rest of them started looking, standing up and coming over to me. And the whole mood changed.

I mean, it was just like happy. all of a sudden from from really sad, really somber, really not feeling good, to everything changed. And it was Lieutenant Dan. They didn't know what my name was. And so I'm taking pictures and they're smiling. I'm signing things. And, you know, I'm making them feel good just by showing up. And then I walked out of there.

And now we're going to go upstairs to the hospital rooms. And we're going to see, you know, we're going to meet some really banged up folks that are going to be sent home. but I came out of that I walked into that room thinking about myself how am I going to deal with this you know what I'm feeling kind of sick and you know

I'm thinking you know thinking oh my God you know what what's it going to do to me to see wounded guys and all that's thing I walked out of that room and I thought that's why I'm here you know I'm not here to think about myself and what I'm going to feel about it I'm here to change

somebody's day to improve somebody's day who deserves it. And that's what I took into the hospital rooms. And then hundreds of visits over the years, I really learned that it's not about me at all. It's not about what I think of my own performance or what I think of my own TV show or my own career. I can, to somebody else it means something a lot,

you know, to see somebody like you, who they see on television, being on TV is not something everybody does. Most people don't do that. And when they meet somebody that is on TV, it can be kind of special and significant. But I remember feeling like that, it's not that special.

I don't feel like that guy. But then I realized, you know what, it is unique. And especially if you do something that somebody appreciates, you know, and our wounded guys and our veterans appreciate the story of Lieutenant Dan. And I realized pretty early on, I'm going to be living with this for a while, you know. You know, Gary, it's so funny. I think the last time I saw you, speaking of TV, was in L.A.

I was playing Tim Allen's younger brother on Last Man Standing, and you were shooting a scene. And Chuck, were you there too? Yeah, I was there. And we walked over to say hello, you know, and just kind of, because like, if you and I are Venn diagrams, we share an awful lot of real estate. And it just seemed so strange that our paths had never really truly crossed. But I remember walking in and I watched you shoot a scene. And for a moment, I was taken aback.

I was like, oh, man, I'm watching a TV show get made with Gary Cizis. This is interesting. Meanwhile, I'm on a lunch break and I got to get back to finish my TV show. But you just don't see what you can't see until you look down at all of it. it. Or you look through somebody else's eyes. Yes. That's the thing. It's like, you know, it's when you have kids, too. You know, you start reliving your own childhood when you see how little cartoons can make a little child feel or how that popsicle can make them feel or whatever it is. And when you see something through somebody else's eyes, it can really, you know,

it can do something to you. And I remember lots of of people. Lots of our wounded guys came to see me shoot CSI New York. I would have have them over there and they'd never been on a movie set before, never met anybody in the movies, never met anybody in TV and everything. And they came and it was just wonder. And they've got no legs or they're in a wheelchair or whatever it is. They're burned up and down, whatever. And their eyes are this, you know, gigantic and they're having a ball and they're seeing this whole thing. And I would look at them and see how special that was to them. And it makes you feel like, yeah, you know, what we get to do is unique. It's pretty awesome, dude. It's unique. We get to make a living doing this entertainment

stuff. And I never take it for granted for one minute. I fell into it by accident in high school. And I've been able to make my living at it ever since and do some pretty good things along the way. Well, here's what we forget. In the course of doing our day, you've been in their living rooms. These guys you're describing, you've been in their homes, you've been in their bedrooms, you've been on that magic box, you know, they know you. And if they don't, they feel like they do. And that's a powerful thing and an easy thing to forget. And I try not to take it for granted, but you've been in their homes, and so have I. And so for them to meet you at your place of work, it must be super weird for them. It's got to be. It's weird for me. Well,

it's, it's, it's always fun for me. I love sharing that, you know, that kind of a thing with somebody who's, who comes from a small town somewhere and, uh, joined the service, went off, fought for our country, got banged up. And, uh, now they've got to live with their injuries and here they are on the set of CSI New York or some movie or something like that and they get to be treated special. You know, I have, you know, when you're the top guy and you've been the top guy, it's fun because everybody, you can ask somebody to go get them something or, you know, use to show them around or, you know, let's put them in the chair, let's put them in the background, have them be there, whatever, and make a really unique thing for

them and and give them a treat that they would never imagine. I remember when we brought, we brought 25 gold star kids from one of our programs. We do a lot of gold star program stuff for the children of our fall. And we brought a whole bunch of them to the set of CSI, New York. And we got to special tours. They got to sit and get their pictures taken on the set. They got to look at all the stuff. They got to watch a shoot. We've had Gold Star spouses on our sets, a lot of cool things. You know, the whole thing for me in getting involved with all the military support and traveling the world and everything was lifting people up, you know. Why do you, why do you go to the war zone and to visit the troops where you're going there to lift them up?

You know, you want to break up their day. You want to do something special so that they feel like they're not being forgotten while they fight for our country. Sure. And all of it is about lifting people up. And so bringing people to the sets and watching their faces light up and everything like that. That's what it's all about. I love doing it. Audrey Hepburn, Jerry Lewis, Paul Newman, you know, you're not you're not the only guy to take your celebrity and turn it into something large. But honestly, Gary, I don't know of anybody who has done it with the congruency that you have, the way you've managed your career with your philanthropy, I'm in all of it. And I would just ask you now, as I know your granddaughter is waiting for the ice cream date,

that if there's any way I can return this favor, if there's anything I can do for your foundation in the future, I really hope you won't hesitate to ask because I'm a fan, unabashedly. And I feel like I've learned a lot from you, whether you meant to impart it or not. So I'm grateful for that from one American to another. God bless you, Mike. Thank you so much for having me on today. It's wonderful to catch up with you and talk to you. And I really appreciate everything you do.

Thanks, Chuck, for sitting there and listening. Thanks for not falling asleep, Chuck. You really want to put on this one. I was caught up on everything. Listen, I just want to mention that your book is available now in paperback. It's called Grateful American, A Journey from Self to Servant. and it is available now. And if people want to check out your foundation,

they should go to gary senisefoundation.org. Where did you ever come up with that name for the foundation? You know, it just popped into my head. I don't know. I would stick with it. And if you want to see Gary's a professional career, go to gary senise.com. There it is.

Chuck, thank you. Molly, thank you for listening ever so patiently and quietly off in the ether. Gary, Sanis, don't hang up. We have to upload your thing. It'll take about five seconds. but this will officially end another episode of whatever this is with my pal.

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