Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep904: Theology, Film, and the Idolatry of Marriage: Dr. Kutter Callaway

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

In this episode, we talk at length about a theology of film, looking at the deeper meaning of various movies and discuss how Christians should watch movies. Oftentimes, we get hung up on the big 3 sins: sex, violence, and cussing. But what about “clean” movies that have super compelling and incredibly bad narratives--like pretty much every Disney princess movie ever made? We also talk about masculinity and the idolatry of marriage.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today the one and only Dr. Cutter Calloway. Dr. Calloway is Associate Professor of Theology and Culture and Co-Director of Real Spirituality. He's written a ton of books. The most recent books are Techno Sapiens in a Networked Era, Becoming Digital Neighbors, The Aesthetics of Atheism, Theology and Imagination in Contemporary Culture, Deep Focus, Film and Theology and Dialogue. And the book that I read that really introduced me to Cutter and his work was Breaking the Marriage Idol, Reconstructing Our Cultural and Spiritual Norms, which I absolutely highly recommend. It's an incredibly great book. In this podcast, we talk a lot about the theology of film.

How should Christians watch film? How do we think about the meaning of different movies and television series? We also wander into a conversation, the content of his book, about singleness and marriage and masculinity and femininity and men's retreats and women's retreats. Cutter is a delightful person. You're really going to enjoy this episode. So without further ado, let's get to know the one and only Dr. Cutter Calloway. All right. Hey, Cutter. Welcome to Theology in the Raw. Appreciate you coming on the show. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Well, we were just chit-chatting offline. For those of you watching the YouTube version of this,

here is the book that the first is. Is this your first book you wrote or first at least popular level book? Yeah, first popular. I think it's my third or fourth book okay yeah we're in there yeah you dance in between kind of popular and academic stuff so yeah i mean most most of my academic stuff i'd i'd like for the general public to read um so i do a lot of stuff in like pop culture yeah tv film that sort of stuff. And if you make that unreadable, I don't know what the point is. Right. But still, I'll do the philosophy, theology thing sometimes, and it gets a little heady.

Yeah, yeah. I want to get into the content of this book and then probably go many different directions. But for those who don't know who you are, give us a snapshot of who you are, your journey, and what you do. Sure. Well, my day job is I'm on faculty at Fuller Seminary in Pasadena. I'm an associate professor of theology and culture, which basically means I get to, if you add the and after theology, you get to do stuff that's fun.

So the things that I find interesting and enjoyable out there in contemporary society, I kind of look at that and go, well, what's God up to there? And let's explore it. So that's sort of the gist. More recently, I've been, I just completed a second PhD, actually, in psychological science. Are you serious? Wow. in psychological science. Um, so I've been, yeah, yeah. Um, so I'm, and the reason is cause I'm, I'm really interested in the sort of, uh, psychosocial effects of media, of, of arts, of TV, film, et cetera. And then to go, you know, what's, what's happening psychologically for people. How can we maybe get at that and then think through, um, how might God be up to something and the way that

we're responding in into those different forms of media. So that's sort of my research and my teaching and all that stuff is what I do. I've got so many questions about that. So, but before it, so the theology of culture, theology and culture, you do a lot of stuff with like theology of film, right? Like you actually assign movies for homework for seminary courses. Um, again, I mean, this is why, you know, my strategy in life is just pick stuff you love and find a way to get it part of your job. So yeah, my real question is, how did I miss that boat? Like where did I go wrong? Yeah. So I assign, I have a TV course and a film course. Um, so in the TV, you have to watch like 30 hours of television, the film course. And it's funny because in both courses that the students, you know, they'll, they'll cry

uncle, not for the reading, you know, like there's a lot of reading in these master's level courses. It's the amount of TV or film. It's like cutter, ah, two movies a week. Like, come on. I'm like, I'm just, I'm just giving you more free time to, you know, um, do some entertainment. So yeah, that's, that's usually what the classes are. And, um, the goal is really to, uh, think through, um, one, how do we become better interpreters of,

of culture, of society, of the world? Um, and, and having done, uh, given a fair hearing to, uh, these sort of cultural artifacts, um, then responding from the sort of core of our faith, in part because, you know, in the last, let's say, 40 years in at least U.S. Christianity, there's a tendency to sort of respond first and think second. You know, you get all the classic things of, you know, boycotts of films that nobody's ever seen. second. You know, you get all the classic things of, you know, boycotts of films that nobody's ever seen. Or, you know, it's like these screeds that are articles about some horrible film. And it's like, wait, oh, the author of the article never even watched it. And it's like, wow. So that's the worst case. But even in between there, we're just consumed with consuming, right? And

yet we're not very, and by we, I mean, the subsection of Christians in the US aren't incredibly well equipped or skilled at actually interpreting what these various art forms mean. And so that's a big part of kind of what I do of like, how do you go through and take a film or a TV show on its own terms before responding theologically or Christianly. Can you give us some examples? I'm super interested in this as a conversation. I've just known very little about it. I've had a couple of friends that have kind of dabbled.

One of my buddies, Mark Beavian, wrote a book on theology of music. I had a part-time teaching stint at Nottingham University and they had like a theology and film course. I remember being like, didn't have a category for that. So I always talked to that professor. So that's the extent of my knowledge. But give us an example, maybe of a favorite movie or maybe low-hanging fruit on what does it look like for a Christian to evaluate a film, TV series more thoughtfully? evaluate yeah a film tv series more thoughtfully yeah so um i mean i just got off uh a skype interview with the director of a new film coming out so this is just top of mind um this one's a little on the nose because it's it's a film called uh the eyes of tammy faye um and it's a jessica

chastain plays tammy faye baker uh and uh andrew garfield isfield is Jim Baker. And it is really interesting because everybody on the project, nobody is a Christian, right? And they're telling this story of kind of a seminal moment in recent evangelical narrative drama that really paved the way for kind of where we're at right now on a number of issues, right? And your podcast is one of these. I mean, like her advocacy, for example, for LGBTQ folks is really interesting. And the movie paints this really interesting picture of how she was kind of exiled or really just bracketed out of the conversation. And the way this movie tells it is in part because it was a strategic

political move, not necessarily a theological move. It was, you need to go sit down and shut up because that's not a part of our strategy, right? So anyway, take this movie, okay? So you can come at it from a number of different ways. And, you know, a Christian could come in and go, ah, you know, Hollywood's just, just hates Christianity. It doesn't understand ways. And, you know, a Christian could come in and go, ah, you know, Hollywood's just, uh, just hates Christianity. It doesn't understand us. And they're going to make this movie to, to, uh, basically criticize and condemn us. Um, but if you actually watch it as a movie, um, you'll, and, and allow it. So this is sort of a C.S. Lewis quote, his, uh, in his interpretation or his, uh, what's the book, um, uh, method on interpretation. Uh, I can't remember the name of the book, but his, his quote is, um, anytime you're coming to

a text, uh, and he's talking about literature, but film, it applies well is to, um, the first gesture is to stop, uh, listen and receive, get yourself out of the way. And what he means by that, I think, is to let the art kind of do its work before sort of prejudging it. And so if you do that with this film, what you realize is actually it's a really pretty sincere take on these characters and these people. But what it exposes is something that's kind of difficult, I think, for us to to engage. And so part of it is to go, OK, what's the film actually doing? And then the next thing is, well, what what then do we make theologically of it? And then also, what do we make sort of missionally of it? So what does it mean now that major Hollywood actress Jessica Chastain is super passionate about telling this

story? Like, why are they wanting to tell the story? So there's all those different levels of, there's the text, like, how do you interpret it just as an artifact? There's the sort of theological, like, how do I make sense of it as maybe a source for inspiration or meaning in my life? And then there's, to me, the sort of missional imperative of, like, how does this give me language or categories to engage a broader society that often looks at us like, you know, in us being the Christian community, as if we're kind of crazies, right? Like, we're very foreign to them. And so how can it be a sort of a bridge to have conversations about God, about spirituality? So that's just one example. But basically, any movie that comes up, I,

you know, my notion of how God's present in the world is any of it is an opportunity to think about how do I build bridges to other people and how might God be speaking something to my life in and through it. Can you give us a movie that most people are maybe familiar with and kind of do what you just said we should be doing with movies? Maybe – I don't want to use a negative example. I was going to say maybe we just go into the book with the Disney princess movies. Um, but, uh, but yeah, actually, um, so one question I've got is that maybe this will be a good segue is, um, the Disney sort of, uh, world, um, universe, their cinematic universe, um, is um is you know popular to all these princesses and we have most recently um the frozen characters right so frozen two is now well maybe it's man i don't the pandemic has made me lose time so i don't know maybe it's two years old but

um there's this really interesting and i've got uh three uh young daughters my oldest actually just today turns 11 so 11 11, nine and almost six. And so they know Frozen, right? I mean, I've most of my parenting has been Frozen based. And so but Frozen 2 is really interesting. And Frozen 1 as well, in terms of how it deals with, for example, marriage and singleness and whatnot. But Frozen 2, you get this really interesting thing where Elsa is being called. Have you seen it, by the way? I've not seen Frozen 2. Oh, okay.

I'd recommend it. I really enjoy it. I think musically it's actually superior to Frozen 1. I might have been in the room when the movie was playing, but I'm not going to recall the narrative. So early on, Elsa, the I don't, I'm not going to recall the narrative. Yeah. Well, um, so early on Elsa, um, the, the ice princess, uh, lady, she, she's basically called by this voice, by this, not even voice. It's like a, it's a song, right. And she's, she's being, um, summoned to,

to kind of respond to this call that she can't quite articulate. And one of the main songs is Into the Unknown, right? And she's saying, like, I'm good. I've done my adventure. I'm set. I mean, I'm settled. But I can't deny this voice that's calling me to take this risk. And the risk is I'm stepping out, essentially on faith, into unknown, uncharted territory um and i'm looking at this going uh are you all like christians like who's writing this stuff right um because and what was fascinating i so i use this so we do this stuff at fuller where it's kind of uh prospective students come in and they're like oh you know so forth so on you know give a little spiel and say here's why you should come to fuller um and i'm the film guy. So I use this example. And I said the same thing to prospective

students who are looking at like, where is God moving in my life? Do I need to pursue further education? Do I need to go to a different business? Should I pursue pastoral ministry? I'm a pastor. I want to go to do something else. And they're considering maybe graduate education is part of that process. And so my whole spiel, I played that song, Into the Unknown, from Frozen 2. And I basically said, hey, I'm guessing most of you are here because you sensed something calling you into an adventure or a risk that you can't really articulate. And maybe your family and friends are even saying you're crazy, but you know you're not. And I'm here to tell you, you're not crazy, right? But it's a risk, right? If anything, seminary used to be a thing where we prepared people for really predictable and stable places that they'd land. Um, and now I say like, if we're, if the seminary is doing its job, we're preparing you for a world that doesn't exist yet. Okay. So I did that little spiel. I want to say February of 2020 and little

did I know, um, everything was about to like blow up and it's now we're like in this perpetual state of unknowingness right like what's coming we don't know um and so i just uh both in the way that a film like that um can offer um some categories that um aren't necessarily christian or biblical or theological um but they do what i call is reverse the hermeneutical flow. They can give us some language or visions or images that then we go back to our own tradition, our own texts, and go, well, what if we thought about the Spirit at work in the world in these terms? How does that change the way I think about the Bible? And vice versa, how might it be new language for a new time? Um, and, and vice versa, how might it be a new language for a new time?

Um, and can we listen to the, the prophets, the artists of our day to help us think through those things, especially when we're encountering, um, these sort of dynamic upheavals in the world? Well, how do you explain? Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I, it just, it just, all these other questions pop in my mind that the biggest one I've had, um, is how do you explain it when a holy secular movie created by secular people create a narrative that has some pretty aggressive kind of Christian themes. Is that the Romans two,

four is a general revelation. Like what's the theological category of that? yeah. Uh, for me, yeah. Um, uh,

and I would, you know, there's, uh, my, uh, my theological mentor, a guy named Rob Johnston, wrote a great book called God's Wider Presence. And he does a lot of stuff with film as well. And it's it's general revelation. It's like a reconsideration of general revelation. And the reason it's a reconsideration is because usually or often when people talk about Romans or these other places that we would go to, it's sort of like a cup half empty sort of thing. It's a, yeah, okay, maybe God can be discerned in creation, but you know what? We're so scarred by sin, it's essentially worthless.

Or they go to Romans 1 where it's, if anything, it just holds you under judgment, right? Like the best thing it can do is to remind you how you stand condemned before God, um, you know, all of you heathens, but it misses Romans two, where it says, um, uh, you know, where the, the sort of, we have been written, or the law has been written on, or wait, is that Romans 2? Romans 2, yeah, Romans 2, 1450. The law has been written on their hearts such that the Gentiles will be accused or excused. And I'm like, whoa. It's a weird phrase, yeah. What? No, that's not, no, that's not what Paul means. No, Paul just means accused, right? So there's stuff like that. But then also you broaden it out to me, the God's wider presence thing is, and again,

I should know more about your listenership. So if I say pneumatology, I just mean the spirit, how God's spirit, how we think of the spirit, right? And so less about Paul and more about like, where are all those sort of biblical texts where we see God's spirit up to something at work and specifically outside of the covenant community? That that you go, OK, one of my favorite stories is King Josiah meeting Pharaoh Necho at the end of his life. So Josiah, you know, King of Judah, one of the good kings. Right. And he's there's two times in Chronicles and in Kings that the story is mentioned. And it's only in one where this bit of the story comes up. And it's fascinating. So the king of Egypt, the Pharaoh, Necho, needs to get through Judah, needs to go through the land, comes up to Josiah and says, hey, I've got no bit with you. I just need to cross through. Let us let us go through and, you know, peace be with you, brother. And and Josiah is like, no, you're you're Egypt, right? Like, I'm not going to let

you just walk through our land. Now, again, Josiah is the good king. He reforms Judah, right? He got rid of all that. So if anybody knows what's up with what God's doing in the world, it should be Josiah. Well, King Necho, it's really fascinating, says, you know, Elohim, so God, sort of not the Yahweh, covenant God, but Elohim has told me to do this. And he says to Josiah, let me through, lest you be in opposition to God, right? Don't oppose God. And Josiah does, goes down, meets him in the battle, gets killed. And it says Josiah died because he did not heed the voice of God through King Necho. And you go, whoa. So, yeah, there is biblical precedent for saying there are moments, lots of moments where God is speaking and acting and moving outside of the people who own God.

And and and we need to pay attention. And when we don't, it's consequential. It's and I actually think we're in that moment right now of going, you know, my read. read, I don't know if you wanted to talk about all this, but my read of the whole biblical sort of narrative could be summed up in basically the people of God over and over forget what it means to be the people of God. So God sends them people who aren't in the community to remind them. And that's just it. We keep forgetting. And so now we have all of these, and I would consider, you know, certain filmmakers and artists to be the prophets of today, calling the people of God to a faithfulness that we've forgotten. And it's very easy to just disregard them and say, no, no, that's a film, or that's not a Christian, that's not a representative.

We know what God wants. We know what God's up to. How dare you suggest you know? And I just think that's a pretty flawed approach. And we see what happens to Israel and Judah. And so the question is, are we willing to hear those voices? No, that's powerful, man. Hey, friends, I want to invite you to come out to the Theology in the Raw conference next spring, March 31st through April 2nd. It's here in Boise,

or you can live stream it. Early bird registration ends on September 30th. Okay. So you get a discount if you register before September, well, before October 1st. If you're coming out to attend the conference live here in Boise, all the information is on my website, pressandspringfield.com. Again, if you are planning on coming out, you definitely want to take advantage of the early bird registration which is about to end. No, that's powerful, man. I'm curious. I just have so many movies

going through my head and as I've tried to do what you're suggesting we should do, really look in and through these movies and not just as just raw entertainment. Although, I mean, there are some like just those action flicks that are just blowing stuff up for two hours.

What was the Fast and Furious like nine or something just came out? Like those are kind of just for raw entertainment, right? Would you say? I mean, maybe there's something there. What about – I just wrote down a few that off the top of my head seem like, man, there's something there to what about i'm just i just wrote down a few that off the top of my head seem like man there's something really rich here um and i'll let you pick if there's any that you're like oh yeah i would love to kind of dive into that uh joker get out gran torino and then tv series stranger things walking dead yep yep okay so

i i confess i've not seen the walking dead okay um but uh i i should it's one of those that it took off before i got a chance and now there's too many okay yeah yeah uh i actually have a book called the aesthetics of atheism and the whole first section's on stranger things okay um and it's basically uh a uh a take on the horror genre as essentially theological. Um, and then at the end of each section of that book, I sort of reinterpret, uh, Mark, the, the gospel of Mark through, through that lens. So if you're interested in stranger things, but, um, yeah, Joker. So, um, uh, and then on the film side um would you say joker and uh get out and uh grand trino um that's another one i should have there's being a movie guy i realized i just

i just thought this is like yeah yo yeah i the the problem is there's literally more media created now than there are hours in a year. So every, like you literally can't watch it all. So I have to give myself a break. So that one I haven't seen, but yeah, I mean, get out to perfect, um, a perfect example and, um, is actually in my most recent TV book. If you want to, uh, it's called deep, deep focus. And we talk a bit about, uh, get out, but that is a great example of one of the many. I mean, like, one of the things that I would say, if you have a robust notion of saying, um, uh, we are, we being African American, uh, people are living through a horror film. Um, and you're, you're the terror, right?

Um, and, and that is a really important word for anyone who is white or from any sort of dominant culture to hear. It's also very easy, and as I observe, specifically like white Christians, it looks like, we have a very easy defense mechanism where we want to say, no, that's not our thing. That's not our problem. Um, and I think, uh, to your point, get out is a great example of saying, um, we need to sit and stare at that movie and all of its horror, um, so that it affects us. Um, and you know, uh, they're painting with really big brushstrokes to sort of like get our attention. Um, and if we're, if we haven't habituated ourselves to film and TV in this way, um, it's very easy to dismiss it.

Um, and it's very easy to dismiss all of these voices either because of who the authors are, right. Or what the kind of medium it is. But man, that is this incredibly important film um that everybody should see yeah here's what here here's why i brought that one up first of all i thought it was a really powerful film i i with all the kind of race films out there i i become less impressed when they're too clean and neat and binary you know you have like white conservatives are the bad people and then you know the progressives are good or whatever like what

i liked about get out is it and like other ones i could think of you know or like you know i i really do like um the hate the hate you give. But that... And it's a great... I think it's great. But it is... White cop does this, whatever. We're very familiar with that narrative and we need to be.

What I liked about Get Out is here you have what I would consider more like white progressives who actually want, these aren't slave owning, they're like, no, they want the black body. We're going to spoil it here, I guess, you know, but even like they're talking about Obama, like, oh, I would have voted for him a third time, you know, like they were. And what I like is it's like, no, this is not just a, oh, if you're conservative, you're the bad person. If you're liberal, you're good. You know, it's like, no, it's way more complex than that.

Am I right to read it that way? Like, I feel like they just stirred the pot toward nobody's really comfortable watching that film. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's, they're leveraging the best of the horror genre, right? Like, no matter who it is, they want you to be rattled, right? Yeah. But you're absolutely right.

And from what I hear, now this is then, gets then beyond the film of conversations is as I, you know, continue to try to grow and learn in this realm myself. And because they are sincere and, you know, and and yet are sort of perpetuating or reinforcing some of the very systemic problems that, you know, black and brown bodies are suffering under. And and that's a problem. And so to think you're kind of like off the hook because you're you're a woke white progressive isn't enough. And so I think you're absolutely right that part of the benefit of that is it doesn't paint in black and white. That's, let's see, it doesn't paint in binaries, right? I've heard it compared to like the well-meaning old school kind of white missionary to Africa. So it's like, man, they're literally giving up their life buying a one-way ticket. Why? Because these people need help.

Like they, you know, it's like, it's very almost colonial, like belittling, stripping people of agency kind of a posture. Now again, and even that doesn't, that also doesn't let off the hook, you know, conservatives. No, but I feel like that's kind of low-hanging

fruit, at least in my world. It's like, yeah, the January six people or what, you know, conservatives. No. But I feel like that's kind of low-hanging fruit, at least in my world. It's like, yeah, generate six people or whatever. You know, it's like, of course. Another one, I think more recent. Yeah, I think it was more recent, is, for example, like Black Klansman, right? I don't know if you saw that. No.

Spike Lee movie. Yeah, yeah, great. Or, and it's over the top and in your face, and some people were really troubled by it. I believe it came out the same year. This is maybe two years ago. Both were up for Oscars, I want to say, was Green Book. Did you see Green Book? No. So both were critiqued for almost opposite reasons. Green Book, and both for the historicity of these things, right? And so you get critiques. Green Book came off where it essentially, it seemed on the surface

like it was a film that was advocating for and supporting this, you know, a brilliant black musician. And at the end of the day, the movie itself kind of reinforces that the story was really all about the white protagonist's redemption, right? And so the black character becomes sort of like the secondary person. So the movie ends up being about the white guy. Then you reverse it to the black Klansman. And, and there's trouble actually, even with, um, the, the historical part of that. Right. Um, uh, so people were troubled, but, but they got over it. At least, you know, uh, white folks got over it because it made you feel good at the end. Right. Like, Oh, you know, isn't this, you know, relationship between an African American and a white guy, like possible or redemptive. Great. It's historically flawed.

Then you go to black Klansmen and the same people that love that movie almost hate it because it's not historically accurate perfectly. But this is Spike Lee, right? Telling this story of, based on a true story of a black guy that works for the police. I think the first African American police officer in Colorado Springs, my hometown actually. And, uh, he, he gets, he joins the clan, um, and infiltrates it and he does it over the phone. They don't know he's black and then has to send like a proxy. It's, it's, it's really great. Um, and, and the part of the problem is, so Spike Lee, uh, does all this stuff. And right before he, uh, finishes it, uh, Charlottesville happens. And so he puts a coda on this film with raw, real footage from Charlottesville. Right.

And so it starts, yeah, it starts, it's, I think a really powerful movie, but again, um, it's troubling our sensibilities in really important ways. Um, because this gets back to, our sensibilities in really important ways, because this gets back to, I think, Jesus' word to us all, right? He who, I've been giving you eyes, but you cannot see. I've given you ears, but you cannot hear. He who has eyes to see will see. This is the sort of thing, I think, if we think about God may be up to something in these films. It's really hard for us to see it. Um, unless it's, it's shaking us, um, it's unsettling us. And this, another movie, uh, reference I, I often think of, uh, are you familiar with the matrix? So the new, the new matrix is going to come out here in December. I'm, I'm both terrified and excited because, um, outside of star Wars, uh, which was the first time that movies sort of captivated me. Matrix is what was the

first movie that I think I saw the theological possibilities. I was a youth pastor at the time. You know, I took my students in the youth ministry to see it. We all, you know, talked about it and stuff. But it also like gave me a new framework for like thinking about reality, you know. And so but I love the line in there where if you remember the first time Neo comes out of the Matrix, Morpheus sort of wakes him up and it's all sort of like blurry. And Neo goes, why do my eyes hurt? And Morpheus goes, because you've never used them. You've never used them before. Yeah. And I'm constantly thinking of that as a Christian going, I'm looking at Black Klansman.

And there are moments where I'm like, oh, Spike Lee, this is making my eyes hurt. And it may be because I've actually never used them before. Wow. Not because this film is flawed or wrong or bad. But I've not trained my eyes to see. Wow. What about Joker? That's one that I've not trained my eyes to see. Wow. What about Joker? That's one that I really got into.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't want to read too much into it. There's so many tiny details that I'm like, I need to pause it and just sit there. Yeah. Well, that's one thing I...

So I'm going to do what I... Not what I teach, but something to the opposite. And usually it's to say, you got to watch these movies more than once. So one viewing, but some do the opposite. And, um, and usually it's to say, you got to watch these movies more than once. Um, so one viewing it's, it's hard to know. So I've only seen it once. Um, and it was when it came out in the, in the, so from what I recall, um, I mean, I'm, I'm team Batman. Um, so I, uh, that he was always my superhero. Um, I'm fine with Superman,

but I'm like, I theoretically could be Batman. All I need is like my parents to be murdered and then a lot of wealth. But in theory, this is what happened. Crazy ninja skills. Yeah. Yeah. You know, intense time of training. Um, but what I thought was powerful about the Joker is similar to, well, any of these other sort of horror shows we're talking about,

where it makes the audience complicit in what it's showing you. So my read of that film is, you know, again, it was a little on the nose at times with the mental health thing, but I think that's what it's essentially about, of going like, Joker's no longer this, like, talk about binaries. It's like the evil scapegoat for all that's bad and wrong in the world. No, the Joker is actually the product of us. This is us. And, you know, you see him losing his health care and you see him, you know, being derided,

you know, all these sort of things. He manifestation of all of, of our societal issues. And it's, it's, it's not enough for us to just go, Joker is evil and we are good. Um, it's inviting us to go, we actually are a part of his own, um, pathologies, et cetera. And, and I think a really interesting way to say, we need to think more about mental health um yeah and specifically i think the church does but well that line at the end toward the end before he shot robert de nero i forget the actor or i forget the role he is playing you know what do you get when he cross what do you say a mentally troubled person with a society that doesn't give a darn you get what you have to deserve or something like that like it's's, and that's kind of the climactic.

I feel like that's where it, right. I mean, it seems to be kind of like the main point. Oh yeah. I little subtle things that I liked, liked is probably not the best word, but just the, the slow callousness to evil and just showing in great details how that works out. And I feel like there's like three or four dancing scenes that, that really manifest that like his first time he's dancing, he's kind of out of sync, he's goofy, it's whatever.

And then it gets better and better till the very end. He's got this very elegant, smooth dancing. It's almost like he's not troubled by the evil he's becoming. He is. And again, i don't know if i'm reading into it just seems like it seems like the movie's so thoughtful it's like i don't yes well nothing's accidental yeah they don't you know they spend tons of time intentionally placing all these things in there um you know joaquin phoenix is a a really great actor so he's thinking through exactly that so that's not accidental. Um, I,

again, I only saw it once. I need to go back. That's a really interesting take. Um, and thinking through how do you, how do you like, like in a sense he does sort of come alive, right? Like he's flunky and stuff. And then he's finally like, I've arrived at this thing. Um, and it's, it's not to be celebrated, but at the same time you see that progression. Um, and yeah, that'd be a really interesting way just to read the film of his sort of dance vignettes of what's happened at each moment, um, at each turn that has allowed him to, to learn, to become habituated in this, um, to the point that who he is is real, that is really him. to the point that who he is, that is really him.

But again, as a product of... When I watch the movie, I see a glimpse of Joker in myself and I would think all of us. It's just like... And that's why I'm always disturbed. I've watched it like three times and I feel like I needed it. It's spiritually... This is so weird. I've never thought through it like this.

But it's spiritually good for me to watch it. And yet I also feel feel I don't feel good after I feel disturbed and I feel almost like okay what where in my life does Joker need to be kind of addressed you know hey friends hope you're enjoying the conversation so far and if you are

enjoying this conversation and others like it would you consider supporting the theology in the raw ministry by going to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to lots of different kinds of premium content like monthly Patreon only podcasts and blogs and Q&A sessions. Again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw or all the info is in the show notes. Where in my life does Joker need to be kind of addressed? You know, um, I don't know. Listen, you want me to, again, I don't know if you want to hear any of this, but that's, that is the, the, I think a key indicator of, uh, God moving in the world

is disruption. Um, we, a lot of times, times, our state sensibilities wants to say God is very sort of like careful and sort of precious moments and, you know, a gentle, and God is that, and pretty, right? Like it's a very pretty thing. And you go, the most meaningful and concrete action in all of reality that God took is a very ugly moment that is profoundly disturbing. You have the cross, right? Like, this is the horror of human society writ large. You know, we should stare at that and be troubled by it. And when we stare at that and aren't in art, we've become a bit calloused to it, which is why, you know, Joker's a good way to sort of short-circuit the process. But that's one example. But the other is, if we think about God's Spirit, and I stole this from a guy named

Jean-Luc Marion, who wrote a book called God Without Being. But in the biblical witness, you have a lot of language of the spirit, and especially the Old Testament, it's God's ruach, which really is, it's not spirit like a ghost, it's wind or breath. It's the animating force behind all of life. And then you get this notion of the human person. And sometimes Ruach is used to talk about the human, but very not often, actually more often, it's this term hevel. And hevel is a word that is repeated over and over and over again in Ecclesiastes, which is actually translated most often as meaninglessness or vanity. Oh, right. That's a terrible translation.

It actually means vapor or smoke or mist, right? It's like you go out in a cold night and you see your breath. And Jean-Luc Marion says there's this interesting moment where the ruach, the breath, the spirit of God, comes into contact with a lesser spirit, the hevel, right, a fleeting sort of ephemeral smoke, essentially. Well, when that happens, it's not so much that the human spirit is eradicated or eliminated, but as we know, if you, you know, puff your air out, your breath out into the cold night air and the wind comes and sort of moves it up, those air particles aren't gone. They've just been disseminated, right? So I talk about human life encountering where Ruach and Hevel meets

means we're both animated and like activated. So those moments of creativity and artistry, I think, are the sign of God's spirit in your life. But that sort of de-centering, the pushing out into places we wouldn't have normally gone, is also a way in which we go, oh, God's actually, the spirit of God is up to something here. And then disrupting. So all of that is very disruptive when we think about what does it mean for us to actually enter into the presence of God's spirit. And disruption is one of those things that we don't talk about much because we don't like it. I mean, it doesn't feel good to watch Joker over and over, but it's incredibly important because otherwise you just get hardened and calcified and unable, back to talking about moves, unable to see what it is that God's doing right there in front of you

unless you've habituated yourself to go, yeah, sometimes I need to be disrupted. I need to be unsettled. And hopefully have a context that you can navigate that. I mean, it could be destructive as well. Yeah, totally. That's super helpful. I do want to, in a sense, transition, not awkwardly, but actually seamlessly to your book. But I mean, here's actually what I think would be helpful is, you know, I just noticed, I think all of these movies are like rated R.

Yep. Gritty, violence, stranger things, a little horrorish, walking down. And so some – probably not my audience so much, but like some Christians can be like, oh, these are bad movies. We need good movies that don't have swearing, violence, nudity, or maybe Christian movies. Or not even Christian, but like safe Disney films. Yep.

Can you maybe address – What do I make of that address can you address that way of thinking and i primarily want people to i want to hear you unpack just the danger of like quote-unquote clean narrative stories where the meaning of the story is actually profoundly yep uh can wreak havoc on your christian your? Yeah, that's a great question because I become calloused, I guess. Or I become, I've had this conversation so many times, I often go like, oh, don't we already know the answer to this? But the truth is, you're right, it does keep coming up. And I think it is important.

I mean, it is an important question to the point that a colleague of mine is like, you should actually write a short little book just basically answering the question you just asked. I'm like, that could be helpful. I just, you know, a hundred page thing. I'm like, here's how to think about this. But your your language is important of saying the meaning. So I like to the main thing I like to do is separate between content and meaning. OK. And and what that means is it's not that you shouldn't care about the content of the movie, the language. And it's usually the big three language, sex and violence. Right. Yeah. Those are important. And of course, discernment is required for everyone. for everyone. Um, if you, for example, uh, struggle with an addiction to pornography, you should probably avoid movies that are going to sort of be bridges into that again, you know? So, but not everyone does. And so that's fine. Um, I, you know, as I said earlier,

as a former youth pastor, which means if I hung out with high school kids at a high school, uh, I heard more like crazy language that would never make it into a rated R movie than you could possibly imagine. So, you know, watching movies is like child's play compared to just hanging out at a public high school with high school kids. Right. So it doesn't affect me, I suppose, but only in the sense that it allows me to inhabit their world. Real quick, just real quick, my kids and I have this conversation. Like, do you ever feel like there's a place to where it does motivate, desensitize you in the sense of you just start kind of absorbing that way of, you know? Yes. And I've shifted. Now, again, as a parenting thing, it's a little different.

I'm talking here almost exclusively as adults. OK. Once it comes to kids, I do think it changes. And there's developmental moments. There's, again, kid to kid, you know, like everyone has different sensibilities. I've just personally never I've never been a big cursor. My I tend to just use words nobody knows so when i get angry i you know a trail of like uh s words but um like if you if you watch a movie with tons of swearing you're not like motivated to go swear i mean or doesn't like no i don't um no i for me it usually happens more in like relational contexts i mean i worked worked for an engineering company for a number of years, and most of them were ex-military. And there was a lot of swearing to the point that to even refer to things, the items had swear words built into them.

And it was hard to even like—so anyway, you get my point. But so if we're talking just about adults parenting is a different thing and i'm i'm guarded with my kids in terms of both the content and the kinds of things they watch um but but i do separate those things out as we're going to think about the artistry of these films is um is there something that it's contributing to the larger meaning there are always examples where it's just like useless it's just frivolous or gratuitous violence or sex or whatever. I generally have to say in an American context, remind people that violence is bad too. We tend to write that off as if it's just no biggie, but you show a boob and ah, you know, like, yeah. Like, yeah. So separating out content and meaning is one thing. But to the point of becoming calloused, I I take students every year. Well, hopefully again this year, if it comes back to the Sundance Film Festival.

Oh, yeah. These are all indie films. They're not even rated at all, which means they're probably at least R rated, if not worse. Most of the time, very gritty, difficult content about a lot of really important things. And I had one woman who went a number of years ago, and she, a little while later, said, Cutter, it's been a month since Sundance, and I went, and my son, her adult son, invited me to this movie. And we watched it, and I realized, before Sundance, I would never have gone. And even if I had, I would not have been able to make it through that movie. But because she said something like, because I had sort of become calloused at Sundance, I was able to go see this movie or I was

desensitized, right? Desensitized language. And I was able to, and then I had this great conversation with my son about it and all because I was desensitized from Sundance. And I'm like, you're the first person I've ever heard use desensitized in like a positive way. So, um, and on one sense, yes. On the other sense, um, yes. And it's bad, but I want to say yes. And it can be good for some people, um, for some who are called to that, um, who see it as part of, um, their obligation, like I tended watch a bunch to help others go, okay, look, hot tub time machine to probably not worth your effort or, you know, like it's, it's just, ah, you know, um, sort of practices I've set up, because what I'd like to do is find a way, the language I use, is to become offended without taking offense. To be able to inhabit realms where I can acknowledge offensive content that troubles my religious sensibilities or political or whatever, and yet doesn't take offense so that I can be all things to all people, right? I mean, that's sort of the, that's the goal. So I do think in some realms, desensitization is good. Okay, now shift to meaning, and it's exactly the point, the segue

is what we miss in that content criticism of like, how many F-bombs are there? You know, how much nudity, et cetera, is we miss the larger meaning of these narratives. And that I think is far more powerful, especially over time than anything else. And that's why in my book, I talk about Disney narratives because specifically within the sort of Christian evangelical subculture, Disney princesses have been elevated in my ways, in my mind, mind boggling ways. Um, because the assumption is these are like safe kid and family friendly films. And I'm like, well, they may be thematically, but at the same time, what they mean to me is like incredibly contrary to the vision that, um, that God, that Jesus has given us both as individuals and, um, as a community.

And then specifically as it concerns relationships, right? Romantic partnering and marriage. And I'm like, these are incredibly damaging for our daughters, for our sons, for community. Can you go into detail? Can you dive deeper into that? Like in case people want to know exactly. Yeah, like a specific Disney film or like, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, like a specific Disney film or like, yeah. Yeah. So if you look and in the book, I basically break down every princess film and categorize them into different sort of eras. And again, Disney has shifted and changed. But some of the more iconic princesses, you know, it's I mean, they're pretty crazy by modern terms. I mean, you have women that are literally have no point or meaning or purpose in life outside of finding a soulmate, finding their Prince Charming. Often that young woman who's borderline like adolescent, I mean, they look, if you go back and watch some of these early, I mean, they look like they're 12 and 13. It's crazy. Um, often, you know, you think of Snow White, she's, she's literally unconscious and a man has to kiss her to awaken her. And then they live happily ever after, right? Like, um, so this is literally no consent. Um, you know, and I'm overstating it a bit, but, but to make a point, and that is you have these visions of specifically women who are only complete or filled after a generic man, and even they come

in from nowhere, and we don't know much about them. And then together, this coupling sort of emerges into just a generic happiness, which we know nothing about, you know. You then shift to some later Disney films, and they try to sort of play with this. So you get into the sort of 90s era where there was the renaissance of, or the reintroduction of Disney, they came back with Beauty and the Beast and, and Little Mermaid and Lion, well, Lion King's not really a princess, but it sort of is. Um, and, uh, and each of these narratives now, once again, even though they're trying to push the trope of, for example, Belle in Beauty and the Beast being very sort of independent, she's a reader. Um, but the book she reads is about romance. The narrative that she is a part is about her finding true love, whatever that is. And that that true love is changing another person, whatever, from literally not a human into a human. And so you get this thing where the beast becomes human

when he's able to romantically couple with somebody. The same thing happens in Little Mermaid. She literally cannot be human. And when she can, it's sort of stamped as a marriage, right? Like everyone says, this is what happens. You get married and you be, you're no longer a half human. You're now fully human. So you get all these visions within there of, we are radically incomplete individuals who need another to complete us known as a soul mate. Once we do that, we have arrived at some state that is ultimate, beyond which we don't see. And part of that has to do with us becoming fully human. Not the best biblical theology of singleness, is it?

Every single one of those points is deeply theologically flawed. And it's yet, Um, and, and, uh, it's yet because of, I think our, um, our, uh, trouble with sexuality. And I think this is the underlying theme in, in American Christianity. And I can even, I'll just speak for my generation. I was born in 79, the greatest year. Um, and so right when sort of the, um, a lot of these things shifted within our subculture that skewed towards some like hot button issues. And one of these had to do with sexuality. And so I grew up in a church culture that elevated this sense of of purity. Right. And it became a thing where you go.

purity, right? And it became a thing where you go, marriage now is where you dump all of your sexual anxieties and your sexual needs and everything that's going on. We're not going to talk about it right now. Just wait, and it'll all fix itself, right? And so I think that's a reflection of like a deep sort of not uncertainty. What would the word be? We're unsettled. We're anxious about talking about sexuality. What does it mean to steward sexuality as people who are not married? And that was never handed to me.

Nobody ever gave me those sort of resources. And so when you get these princess films and Disney films that essentially carve out narratives where it's just, but we don't talk about it. We wait, you're kissed and now everything's great. Um, that was like a perfect kind of narrative, um, to address the anxieties that I think a lot of, uh, parents. And again, uh, it's very hard being a parent. We're both parents. We get it. Um, but especially parents that were Christians were trying to figure out like, what do I do with an increasingly sexualized society that my kids are living in? How do I navigate my own Christian faith? Um, and then all of these sort of resources came out that were riffing on these princess narratives,

uh, that were very convenient and easy. Um, and, uh, here you go, kids, here's how to steward your sexuality, which is don't talk about it until marriage. And now we have a whole generation of people that are married or now divorced in part because they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. Um, and false promises and yeah, false promises or just, yeah, still the same problems that are struggling with before marriage. They weren't solved and shock and awe, they're still dealing with them after marriage. Um, and the marriage didn't solve it. So, and, and you know, the, I don't want to harp on, I won't name names, but a very recent person who wrote a very influential book along these lines, who, um, uh, I've met with and talked to great guy. Um, I have a lot of respect for him, who I've met with and talked to, great guy. I have a lot of respect

for him, but I do, I mourn the fact that he now is not in his marriage and not any longer identify as a part of the Christian faith. And so you see the tragedy of this isn't just people's marriages collapsing or whatever. But, but some of that was bound up in what it even meant to be a Christian. And so once all of that sort of unravels, I've seen a number of these narratives where those people also are, are leaving the faith because they can't separate it out. It's all a part of that, of a whole essentially.

So when the marriage deconstructs because the marriage was so built into the Christian narrative that it's all just intertwined, the whole thing comes apart. Yeah. And that's my sort of psychoanalysis of it. But I've seen a similar pattern there so many times that that's what it makes me wonder. I'm like, huh, I've often seen that like, uh-oh, I was handed a raw deal. I didn't understand what I was beingoh, I was handed a raw deal. I didn't understand what I was being sold.

It was a bill of goods. And then I can't be a part of this marriage for any number of reasons. And then soon after that, I'm now no longer part of the faith either. So that pattern I've seen in multiple different people's lives. And I go, huh, there must be something to it. And I, not saying that any of those individuals would have also described it that way. So I got a question. I just, I didn't have before. I just thought of it as you're talking with regard to like Disney films and the kind of the, yeah, the idolatry of marriage, or at least the, um, just a certain narrative that has marriage as the focal point kind of the almost like a messianic you know um role um is that

um do you think those narratives which are so popular in disney films and rom-coms and just many movies that have a romantic theme are just very predictable um do you think those are creating a certain idolatry in marriage or do you think they are is it consumer driven are they created and they know they're going to sell well because people already have that i would imagine it's probably a dialectic between the two but yeah have you thought through like cause and effect here consumer and creator and yeah um generally i think i mean you know there's no perfect answer but generally i think is both. I think it's what you're saying. It's both a, you know, we talk in cultural studies of models and mirrors. So it's both, it both models something for us. In other words, it's sort of teaching and training us in a certain way, forming us, but it also, it's just mirroring back to us what we already are. Um, and so in that sense, uh, yeah, when we go and consume these narratives, uh, it, I, I think it's a bit of both because

again, um, Hollywood or anybody with the economics, they're not going to make it if nobody watches it. So, uh, my youngest actually asked me, are they going to make a frozen three? And I'm like, well, would you go watch a Frozen 3? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, then they'll probably make it. Or I think it was Mike Myers, right? How many Austin Powers did he do? And I said, when are you going to stop making Austin Powers?

And he's like, when they stop watching. So, yeah, I do think it's both. But that is where it is. It's important for it back to sort of our first part of a conversation of why I find it important to train ourselves. And most of what I teach is becoming better interpreters of culture and better interpreters just general of our own texts and narratives. And that includes like the biblical texts, but also these we're we're telling without any words right so the the way we organize our um our communities um the way the way our website reads right i mean you can learn a lot about an organization based upon how their websites organized um and or if they even use website if they're only on twitter or something you know i don't know um and and it says a lot without speaking a word about who's important, who's central, who's not, which voices are allowed in, which voices aren't allowed. And a lot is communicated in those different ways that

we need to be better interpreters of our own texts and narratives so that then we can get to a place and go, okay, now when we've got this film, let's say it's a rom-com giving us a certain vision of, of romance and life and marriage single or not. Um, we've got to actually understand what it's doing. And then we've also got to understand what we're doing. If we're going to sort of interface, if we're going to be able to go, yeah, I mean, again, it's a movie, can't make too much of it. Um, but if we're going to endorse it or embrace it or think more about it, um, we've got to be able to understand it and interpret it well, uh, as opposed to, uh, just unthinkingly endorse it. And then all of, because all of a sudden you start again, crafting similar narratives with

a sort of Christian veneer. And I'm looking at it going, these are the same thing. You know, you're just a romantic comedy, but starring Jesus or something like that. Hello, friends. I wanted to let you know about an opportunity to engage the conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender on October 20th through 21st here in Boise, Idaho. We're going to be having a conference on faith, sexuality, and gender on the evening of the 20th through 21st here in Boise, Idaho. We're going to be having a conference on face, sexuality, and gender on the evening of the 20th. We're going to have a two and a half hour introduction for those of you who just need to get your arms around the topic. And the next day,

October 21st, we're going to have an all-day conference where we're going to dig into a lot of aspects of this really important conversation. You can join us live here in Boise or you can stream it online. And I would highly encourage you to come out if you can make it, but I know that can be expensive or just not possible. So please consider joining us at least through the live stream option on October 20th or October 21st. All the info is on the website centerforfaith.com forward slash events. That's centerforfaith.com forward slash events. Romantic comedy, but with starring Jesus or something like that.

Well, and this is going back to the swearing thing. Like, like I can, or even, I don't know, all the kind of the big three. I can watch a movie. We can pick any one of these, you know, get out, Gran Torino, whatever, that has a lot of swearing. And I'm not, it doesn't affect, it doesn't do anything negative to me. In fact, I would almost say, let's just say Gran Torino,

it has a lot of gang scenes and stuff. And it would be dishonest if there wasn't a lot of swearing when a bunch of gang members were around or it wasn't much like even misogyny. And there's some scenes that are like, wow, you know, it's like, like well that's just honest with real life um so i i don't absorb any of that i don't know too many people that would really heavily absorb that um but you absorb

these subtle narratives i mean they're subtle in the sense that a lot of stuff people maybe didn't realize like oh yeah i told this disney film is horrendous in terms of how, you know, but we do absorb that, right? Like that actually does affect us. There's a couple in between categories for me. Vengeful violence. That, you know, and I'm a pacifist or nonviolent advocate. non-violent advocate and i still even though that's my worldview um man something ignites in me when you watch a film that just really does not just contain vengeful violence but it where they frame it in a way that makes you feel so good that the enemy got what they deserved you know

and that's where i'm like ah is that good for me to, you know, Gladiator or whatever? Some of my favorite movies. It's like, when I watch them, I'm like, why am I rooting for this guy to destroy his enemy? And I get this euphoric feeling, you know? So that, that is one where I'm like, I wonder if I am absorbing things there that I shouldn't be. I don't know. I think you're right. I mean, that gets back again to the, the meaning part of it, I think is more important or, or formative or impactful than some of the, the details of content. Um, and what you're getting at, I think is, is more the narrative side of things. Like what is the story doing? How is it affecting me? Uh, where does it land overall? And, um, and that's where there's narratives are very powerful, right? They

have a lot of power because of the way they engage our imaginations. And again, it doesn't mean that the content is not a part of it, but it usually is about whether or not it takes you in or out of the story, right? So if you saw Saving Private Ryan and nobody was cursing, you'd be like, no, like I can't, I don't believe it, right? So that's one of the things you would check out. Or Schindler's List, right? Like this is a, I remember I was in high school, I was a senior in high school when Schindler's List came out and we went and saw it. It was assigned and I had to get special permission because it was rated R. I was still 17 or maybe I maybe I did. Maybe I was a junior anyway. Powerful, powerful movie. I think it's like the, you know, let's say it's the alcoholic going to a bar. If you struggle with like vengeful fantasies, I think that's a good

discernment criteria to go, you know what? It's maybe not healthy for me to watch movies that glorify that. You could then take another step and go, is it good for Christians at all to watch? And maybe not watch them, but to endorse or, you know, be enthusiastically embracive of them. And, and I, back to your Braveheart point, it's like one of the most, the times that I've felt most out of touch with men's ministry in a church. And I've never felt like a real man in Christian subcultures for this kind of reason. Um, I was newly on staff at this pretty large church. Um, and we went on the first men's

retreat and I was required to go. And normally I don't go on men's retreats because I don't, I don't feel all that connected to, to grunt and eat meats. Although I do like meat. I love meat. all that connected to, to grunt and eat meats. Although I do like meat. I love meat. But, um, and we get up and so they got all the pastors up on the first night and it was sort of like a panel Q and a, and it's like, okay, introduce yourself. And they said, go around, say who you are, what ministry you're at and you know, what's your favorite guy movie is, you know? And so of course, everyone's like, I love gladiator. I love brave heart. I love, you know die hard so it's fun so you're like frozen too well frozen wasn't out yet but i probably would have said that um no i at the time i still wish it was my favorite but it's not um uh was american beauty um and i said i did you ever see that

no cutter i'm a real man i don't i don't watch I did. So this is what I said. I in a sort of punk move. I go, well, I don't watch guy movies. I watch film. My favorite film is called American Beauty by Sam Mendes. And anyway, and the guy, the other my pastoral colleague who was sort of emceeing it goes, um, and he says this on the mic, it's like 300 guys in this auditorium. And he's like, uh, you might want to pick a different movie. Cause I, I think you just alienated your whole audience. And I was like, uh, I guess I like gladiator, you know, like, so I was forced to not, not only endorse or, or, uh, sort of align with this vision of masculinity, but that vision of masculinity was directly bound up with these film narratives that are redemptive violence. And, and, you know, anybody can go, well, but that's just one case, whatever.

Well, then, and this is where I get in my book. Um, I basically, the hardest part of writing that book on marriage was, um, going and actually naming names of, I have to show you Christian community. Here are the leading voices and prominent places where we are doing this and we're calling it theology. And so I name a specific author who I won't on the podcast. If you want to go read the book, you can see it. Um, a specific handful of authors who, who write Bible studies and Bible commentaries using Disney princess categories who say we need to be William Wallace's not mother Teresa's. And I remember reading those lines going,

what? Like when, wow. Yeah. What, what Jesus are you following that you say the point that now we're explicitly advocating for them, when to me it's just, and you're naming, you know, one of a modern saint, I mean, literally a modern saint as what you shouldn't be, Christian men, you should be William Wallace. So to your point, I think that's, it's exactly right, that it shapes us, those narratives, more so than the violence or the sexuality it's where does the trajectory of that narrative go? Um, and how does it, uh, engage our imaginations? Cutter we're, we're over an hour. Uh, I just checked the time. I, I, I thought it's been like 10 minutes, but, um, I want to, I want to, I, we haven't, I mean,

I mentioned at the beginning, but the book Breaking the Marriage Idol, Reconstructing Our Cultural and Spiritual Norms, this book is absolutely outstanding. And I, what is it? IVP. IVP did not pay me to say this. Okay. But you know, like I picked up this book, I think because my buddy Greg Coles endorsed it there. Yeah.

No, you know what? Yeah. He told me about it before it even came out. And so right when it came out, I think it was one of those where I pre-ordered it. And I was like, this book is golden. So I would encourage everybody seriously read this book it's outstanding so um thanks so much man for the conversation I this is oh man I yeah I gotta have you back on because we have a lot more to talk about but obviously I'm a I'm a talker and out loud processor so it's it's my fault not yours that the 10 minutes went long.

Oh, not at all. No, I don't have a time limit, so I'm just worried about your time. Oh, no, I'm fine. I mean, the interesting thing, I think I put a little snarky thing in your sign up for scheduling for when we talk. And, you know, like, what are we going to talk about? I'm like, well, I guess you want me to talk about this book. It came out a couple of years ago, or maybe a few. I can't, 2017 or 18. I can't actually remember the official date. 2018. Um, 2018. Okay. So now it's been three-ish

years. And, um, uh, what's interesting to me about it now is now I'm seeing like this year, and I think the pandemic actually affected this. I think the pandemic affected, uh, single folks and married folks much, much differently. Not even I think, I know it did. And so I think this is part of what's animating it. But all of a sudden you see all these sort of like Christian outlets, these articles out there of like, how come nobody's talking about X or why didn't we talk about, and I'm like, and it's about singleness and sexuality and marriage and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, uh, I had to quit doing it. Like, um, I had friends who wrote in the book, you know, little vignettes and they, they will hopefully like post responses like,

Hey, relevant. Have you seen this book? Like you're, you know, so, um, so I do think I wish it was more engaged when it first came out. Um, you always do as an author, but I hope it's a slow burn. Like I hope it's something that doesn't, it's, it's sort of an evergreen thing. It needs to change and develop over time. But the core kind of questions it's raising for us, I hope it's something that doesn't, it's, it's sort of an evergreen thing. It needs to change and develop over time. But the core kind of questions it's raising for us, I think, I think will have a longer effect than most of my other books, um, simply because it's, it's not going away in terms of what we, what we need to think about. It is a very timely, I mean, obviously you use examples of certain films that are, you

know, whatever, but even, I mean, Disney films and Taylor and taylor swift like you know for the next 10 years these are going to be very relevant and even yeah but i mean the but the content is yeah it's timeless and it's just it really i mean it really is i think the best book out there on this topic that i've read not that i've read them all but uh i mean in my when i when i speak and i do address singleness and masculinity and femininity, in fact, it's funny. Your men's ministry illustration, I've used that kind of scenario as a fictitious thing. You almost – as an example of you know we absorb cultural stereotypes when you go to a men's or women's retreat. And I'll give examples.

But it's – they're not theoretical and they do ostracize. I mean, I use it in the context of like a lot of gay and lesbian people feel and trans people feel very much, you know, like, Oh, I would never go to one of those, you know, but I usually get amens from about 30% of the straight people in the room, you know, women that are like, look, I'm straight, whatever. Um, but I like barbecue and I want to play pickup basketball, not just do knitting, you know? And so, yeah. Anyway,

thank you for this book and everything you're doing, bro. Can I, I'm going to do a pitch to you here too, along those lines and we can wrap too. Sure. So, cause I saw you have a conference coming up. Yeah.

You're organizing on a, what is it? Exiles? Is it Exiles? Oh yeah. The Theology and Raw Exiles in Babylon conference. Yeah. Yes, yes. Okay. So I'm about to potentially disrupt your entire conference theme, but it's along those lines. Okay. So just my food for thought as we leave. And I'm happy if you want

me to come and be a disruptive speaker on the panel, I'm happy to do it, but it would just be why we can't use this theme anymore. Really? Yeah. But I say that like seriously and only because I have used that language a lot as well for years. I'm like, I feel like that's a really good way to think about engagement with culture and all this other stuff of, you know, the Jeremiah passage of seeking the welfare of the city you're in, et cetera, et cetera. The problem I've, and this gets to the narrative question that you were asking earlier, both film and then our own biblical text of the reason why we need to be better interpreters of narratives is I think where we identify, right? And here's

my take on the bulk of American evangelical Christians, especially those who are like me, white, cisgendered, straight males. If you don't fall on those lines, this isn't exactly for you. But we all have different privileges in our different intersections. So just take this for what it's worth. But I've been thinking more about it. just take this for what it's worth. But I've been thinking more about it. And exile can be helpful, but it's not actually quite where we're at in the U.S. right now. Because as I see it, we are actually not exiles from Babylon. We're Israel at the height of its gluttonous worst. We're in charge of everything. Christians elect all of our public leaders. We enact all the

legislation. Still, there's like 75% of the US population says they're Christian, you know, whatever that means, but they say they are. All of our holidays are Christian. We get tax relief. We get, I mean, like we have freedom of religious expression, so forth and so on. And I go, what are we exiled from? And I think part of, at least, and so this is new thinking. That's why when I saw your conference, it sparked me. And I go, I think what we need to think of is we are actually in power, and back to that prophecy thing of our worship stinks in the nostrils of God. to that prophecy thing of our worship stinks in the nostrils of God and the prophets are coming saying the end is coming. You need to repent and reform and we're not listening to them. So what would it look like to shift the way we think about culture from I'm in exile towards those in power to I'm actually in power. And if I don't change the way I steward that power,

I'm actually in power. And if I don't change the way I steward that power, uh, we're done for. Okay. That's, that would take a whole nother, I, yeah, I got, I do have some half-baked thoughts about that. I, I, I, I wonder if we're kind of saying the same thing, although I would need to really think, because the theme of exiles in Babylon is trying to accomplish, I think, what you're nervous about. Because in my world, people don't see themselves as exiles in Babylon. They think it's a Christianized Babylon. It's just that. They see themselves as losing power. And what's the response is to get back into power. Babylon. They think it's a Christianized Babylon or that, you know, it's, it's just that like they, they see themselves as losing power. And what's the response is to get back into power.

And I'm like, no power is not the game here. Um, uh, so yeah, I think that's an interesting take. I, I, yeah, I, I think we might be, I do think it probably has to do with who your audience is, where they're at.. So that's, of course, very important. But in my realm, some of the exiles, it's too quickly like it's always us against them. Like we wear these sort of like disadvantaged few. And I'm like, wait, you have all the privilege and power in the world. Why are you feeling like you're exiled? OK, yeah, that's that's that's I very much hear you. And yeah, my my. Interesting. So you're saying that's good. Mine's the opposite.'s, that's, that's, I, I very much hear you. And, and yeah, my, my.

Interesting. So you're saying, oh, that's good. Mine's the opposite. Mine, it would be like, um, one of my things I'm deeply concerned with virtually every single pastor that I talked to says, my church is so divided over political, not partisan type issues. They can't even sit next to somebody if they are Republican or maybe even Democrat or whatever. And I'm like, wait, Jesus isn't enough? So I feel like their identity and allegiances are so wrapped up into Babylon that I'm trying to see it as let's push back from that.

If your church, yeah. All right. All right, I'm with you. Never mind. It's not the religious right kind of where the persecuted it's not that at all uh that's not my audience for the most part i lost that audience when i became a pacifist actually yeah yeah see that's that's thing there's a handful of things pacifism issues of sexuality and what would be the other abortion. I mean, these sort of three things, um,

man. And that's why that Tammy Faye movie is very prophetic because these are actually new, new things. Okay. We can keep talking forever, but, uh,

uh, love your work and, uh, love what you're doing. So thanks for having me. Thanks. I appreciate it. All right.

Take care, man.