We're Out of Time - The Stepfamily Roadmap Nobody Gave You | Dr. Patricia Papernow

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Nobody warns you how hard stepfamily life really is. And almost nobody teaches you how to do it well.Richard Taite sits down with Dr. Patricia Papernow, one of the world's leading experts on stepfamily dynamics and author of Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships, for an honest, research-backed conversation about why blended families struggle — and what actually works.Dr. Papernow breaks down the five structural challenges every stepfamily faces, what loyalty binds do to kids caught between parents, why disciplining too early backfires, and why "connection before correction" is the most important principle any stepparent can follow. Richard opens up about his own experience and the two have a candid, sometimes funny conversation about what kids need — and why the gap between that and what stepparents need is where most blended families break down.👉 Subscribe for raw, honest, and inspiring conversations —new episodes every week. 🔗 Explore more about Richard Taite, We’re Out of Time, and Carrara Treatment Wellness & Spa: ⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/richardtaite⁠🔗 Learn more about Dr. Papernow: https://stepfamilyrelationships.com/

In 50 years of research, the worst for kids is not divorce. It's not single parent. It's not step family. It's conflict and adult tension. 50 years of research, and that's in both first-time families and step families. Conflict is the worst for kids. Kids in divorced with divorced, low-conflict parents are doing better than kids with never-divorced, high-conflict parents. So conflict and adult tension is really important to protect kids.

from. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 8888-8-8-3-1-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. Please, we're out of time. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment, Wellness, and spa and One Method Treatment Centers. Today on We're out of time, we're talking about something millions of families live every day, but almost nobody teaches. us how to navigate. Blended families. Our guest is Dr. Patricia Papernau, one of the world's leading experts on step family relationships. She has spent nearly five decades helping families understand why step families are fundamentally different from first time families and what actually works

based on research, not opinion. She's the author of surviving and thriving in step family relationships and the step family handbook and has received some of the highest honors in family psychology and therapy. Patricia, thank you so much for coming on the show today. What a blessing. We're very grateful to have you. Let's get right into it. You've spent nearly five decades studying step families. What first pulled you into the work? I married somebody who had a five-year-old and a nine-year-old. And about four years later, I was in graduate school. I needed a dissertation, and I could see that my stepdaughters, you know, my

my stepdaughters were now four years older. I could see that something was shifting in our family, and it wasn't just that my stepdaughters were four years older. So I did my dissertation on becoming a step-parent. Lucky for me, I did not have to do what's called a quantitative dissertation with statistics since I'm terrible at numbers, I was able to do a qualitative dissertation, interviewing step-parents. And you do a literature review for a dissertation, you read whatever's out there. It was nothing. I had the easiest lit review in the world. And now it's completely overwhelming.

There's so much research out there, except it's not out where people can get it. So I'm really glad to be here. Is it is is what you've done initially still the standard or has it evolved? The field has evolved. I just updated the surviving and thriving and step family relationships. I just finished writing the second edition. First edition would have finished writing in 2012. This was 2006. Overwhelming amount of research.

So we have, there are some findings that hold through the years. And then there's a lot of layers of things that we've learned, especially about what makes a good step parent and what kids need. Beautiful. What's the name of the book? Surviving and thriving in step family relationships. Good. Well, everyone's going to get the new edition. Yeah.

Well, the new edition won't be out until like early 2027, but the first edition has lots of solid information in it. And the other book is the step family handbook from dating to getting serious to forming a blended. family, that's a great one if you're just starting out. Oh, that's magnificent. You say one of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming a step family works like a first time family. Why are they fundamentally different? Well, a first time family, the couple starts with some time together. The time to get to know each other. They're trying to be in love with no distractions. They have time to develop some ways we do things. They have time. to even get to know the things we don't like.

I don't like how you love the dishwasher. You don't like how I love the dishwasher. But by the time the first kid comes, that's ordinary. It's just how it is. In a first-time family, children arrive brand new. They arrive hardwired for loving connection with both parents and vice versa. We call that attachment.

And the next child and the next arrive equally hard. wired for attachment to both parents and vice versa. And in a first-time family, the family sense of how we do things develops over time as a family. So by the time you're five or six or seven years down the road, lots of ways that we do things. No longer even have language. It's just how we do that. In a step family, so let's say that family splits. We now have a child who's part of two single-parent families. And one of those parents, let's say it's the dad, starts dating. That new partner comes in as an outsider. The attachment in a stepfamily is between the parent and his or her kid. The parent held the kid as a baby. The parent shares ideas about how things are done. The stepparent does

not. It's a fundamentally different structure. And it makes five challenges. You think of the child that's coming in. Right. To the new house, right? And one of those parents is not his. And it's not a parent. It's a step there. That's right.

And it's just heartbreaking when you think about that child because that child's thought is, do you even love me? Why did you bring this person into our lives? That's right. Right. And it feels disloyal. Now, it turns out stepfamilies can be thriving, healthy families. And we now have almost five decades of research about what works.

But that information is not out there. So I always say I'm somewhere between passionate and desperate to get this information out here. So I'm thrilled to be here and share it with you. You talk about five structural challenges that step families face. Can you walk us through those? Absolutely. The first is that because the attachment is between the parent and the child, there are stuck insider and outsider positions in the adult couple.

So I won't explain each of these. I'll first just list them. That's the first. And they are intense. and the structure keeps them stuck. The second challenge is kids don't come to a step family brand new. Kids come to a step family, often needing help with loss and with loyalty binds and with the pace of change.

That's the second challenge. The third challenge is that parenting and step parenting are often quite different. And we've learned more and more and more about how they're different. They are both really important. for kids' well-being. How so? How are they different? How are they different? Well, let me give you the other two challenges and then we'll go back to that. Perfect. And the fourth challenge is we have to make a family culture, but we're not starting all brand new together. We've got at least a team on one side. If we've got two sets of kids, we've got two teams, each of which has their own sense

of what's rude behavior, what's a mess. Do you buy your 16-year-old a new car? And that's good parenting, or you make your 16-year-old earn the money for the car, that's good parenting. So that's the fourth challenge. And the fifth is there is another parent, dead or alive, not in this household, who the other children are attached to. Those are the five challenges. Which of those challenges surprises people the most? You know, I think they all do. The first, it is surprising, especially to step parents, this stuck outsider experience. You know, we've learned that positive step-parent, step-child relationships are really important for kids' well-being, but the parent is the secure base.

So if you're the dad, stepdad, and I'm the mom, you've got my full attention. We're talking. My kid is on the bus. She made the soccer team. She gets off the bus. The person she wants to share her news with is me. So she burst in saying, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, I'm a good mom. I have to turn away from you to turn towards my daughter.

And that leaves you as an outsider over and over and over again. If you know it's the structure, it still hurts, but you know you're not doing anything wrong. Parents are stuck insiders. If I turned to my sweetie, if I didn't turn to my daughter, I just said, wait a minute, I would be doing something bad to my kid. But I turn to my kid, I have to turn away from you. Stuck outsiders often feel left out and invisible, and stuck insiders often feel torn.

And then when they try to talk about it, they end up fighting instead of holding each other because the experiences are so different. Knowing that this is normal really helps. It feels to me like if I turned my attention, from my significant other to my child, right? Right. And she felt left out.

Right. Okay. I'd have a problem. I would have a problem with that. Exactly. Because no, no, no, no. I would have a problem with her. I know.

Because, baby, what are you doing? This is a child. Yes. And it's true. And we are neuroscientic. conceptively wired just below awareness to expect people close to us to turn towards us. And when they turn away, it is dysregulating. So yes, this is a child.

Yes, this child needs my partner. And that turning away is painful. So knowing that it is the structure, that it's not my partner, doesn't care about me, helps. The other thing that helps is something really concrete. And that is making regular, reliable one-to-one time throughout. the family. Adult step couples need one to one time. I hear from stepmothers, their husbands have only weekend custody of their kids. The kids come. This husband spends a whole weekend with his kid, barely looks at her. Yeah, their kids. Yeah, they need their dad. And he's got to turn and

look at her and make some time take a walk, snuggle in bed in the morning, make some time. because having your sweetie turn away is hard. It's painful. And what helps, and actually what often happens is exactly what you just said. The parent says, but it's my kid. And the step-parent says, but you're leaving me out. And then they fight. When really what's needed is, it's helpful to know this is the structure.

It's not that I step-parent am oversensitive or you-parent or insensitive. It's that we're in fundamentally different positions. And how do I as step-parent reach for you rather than clobber you later on instead of saying, why did you do that to me? If I'm able to say that was hard for me, you may still be surprised. But what will help her is to say, tell me more. That sounds hard. Not you're the grownup.

No, of course. You're the grown-up, though, is exactly what parents often feel because you're stuck inside. You don't want to feel torn. And so it's really easy to say to your partner. grow up you know what's your problem which usually makes things worse we're wired to expect that people close to us to turn towards us so having the feelings is not the problem the problem is what do you do about the feelings can you reach instead of globber or withdraw and can your partner say um gee sweetie let's make sure we have some time together which is the best you got you got to

do it it's it's funny though because you know when you have a child you know i always tell people this at the beginning, right before you have a child, this is your best friend, you're holding hands all the time. You don't even watch TV because you're just laughing and talking and it's great. Then you have a child and nothing's funny any longer. Okay. Everybody's tired. Yeah. Second challenge. Kids come into a first time family brand new, ready to be loved. Kid by both parents and vice versa. Kids come into a second time family having experienced the loss of divorce and they often feel some loss of their parent and feeling loyalty binds and being overwhelmed with change. So we'll take them one at a time. Loss. I've come into this family

as a kid. I've lost the household and the family that I knew. And we now have tons of research that very strong, warm parent-child relationships are really key for kids' adjustment to step families study after study tells us that when parents fall in love, when parents recouple, kids lose mental time and attention. And it's partly the grownups are just as gaga when they fall in love as kids. They're on their phones texting during homework and during meals. And when the new partner moves in, the parent is absorbed in a new relationship and also caught in that stuck in the middle insider position.

If I turn to this one, I've gone. turn out of that one. So kids lose a lot. That's the first challenge for kids. The second challenge is I have a dad and a stepdad or a mom and a stepmom. If I care about my mom and my stepmom and my disloyal to my mom. And if I care about my stepdad and my disloyal to my dad, those loyalty binds soften over time if the adults are supportive of each other. If they're not, they really put kids in a terrible bind. And the third is, the adults are in love. They are eager to move forward. And as the rate of change goes up, kids' well-being goes down. And grown-ups end up moving forward much, much too fast for kids. So here's what we do about these three. The first loss,

really important that parents continue to do not only one-to-one couple time, but one-to-one parent child time without the step parent around. Regular, reliable parent child time. Loyalty binds. Really helpful if nobody's undermining and bad-mouthing. You can't always control what's going on in the other house, but you can say to your kid, Janie will be your new stepmom. I hope she brings good things to you. She will never replace your mom. And Janie can say the same thing. I hope we get to know each other. I will never, ever replace your mom. That really helps kids a lot. Change. We almost always have to help couples slow down. So I'm saying, finding a new love is the best. And I know you want these kids to do well. It turns out kids are going to do better if you can go

step by step. As I said earlier, the step family handbook, that's really great for going step by step in the beginning. If you've already rushed in, here's what you can do. Two things. Well, as you can repair. You can say to kids, you know, grownups are kind of dumb sometimes. We rushed into this. Must have been way too fast for you. Am I right? And then listen. That's the first thing. The second thing is, if you've already rushed in up one-to-one parent-child time. Do also make sure you've got some couple time. But up-to-up, the one-to-one parent-child time helps a lot. So that's our second challenge. You say the good news is we now have almost 50 years of research on what works.

That's right. Why do so few families and even professionals know this information? Two reasons. One is it's in the research journals. It's not out where people can get it. But the more important one is people are still not getting that step families and first-time families are not the same. You know, I had a colleague in the local doctoral psychology program was looking for a family therapist to teach.

And I said, I can't do that, but I'll come in and teach about stepfamilies. He said, we don't have time. We have too much in our curriculum. I said, yes, you have time. 42% of Americans have a close step family relationship. One out of three kids will spend some time in a step family. It's different. You need to teach this.

People don't know. people don't know that did he get his head around that uh i hope so i beat him up i mean you know because because you think about it and a 50 percent or i think that's the figure 42 percent yeah no no 50 percent of divorce right oh right it's a little lower than that but yeah and 75 percent of those remarried to the same woman that you divorced no to a new person meaning make a step of emily well that brings us to our third challenge which in some ways is the most substantial and that we've learned the most about. And that is that parenting and step parenting are different. And they're both really important for kids' well-being. But let's start

with that. The parenting and discipline divide parents and step-parents. That's the most interesting, by the way. That's because that's where all the fighting happens. That's where a lot of the fighting happens. That in insiders and outsiders. Absolutely. So I've now taught all over the world. Step parents all over the world want more limits and boundaries for their stepkids. Parents all over the world want more acceptance and love for their kids. So why is this? Well, it's that attachment thing.

Parents have held their kids as babies. Parents have been in love and been loved. And even struggling stepkids are still reaching for their parents because of those challenges that I've just mentioned, they're often distant or even rejecting of step-parents, which is very painful. Connection makes a hormone called oxytocin. Oxytocin buffers stress. It buffers cortisol. Parents have plenty of it. Step-parents got none of it. Plus, parents have agreements, not even named often, with their kids about what's rude, what's a mess. Can you stand in front of the refrigerator and eat or not. That was one in my family. I'm glad to have my single,

I'm a single parent. I have my daughter stand in front of the refrigerator and eat. My husband was like, a word of wasting electricity. I don't care. She's beating herself. This division between parents and step-parents is hard. And here's the other deal. We have almost five decades of research about what works and doesn't for parents and step-parents. Parents need to retain what we call authoritative parenting, leading with warmth and empathy and still providing firm structure. And probably 20 or 30 studies and counting, parents need to retain the limit setting and disciplinary role in step families. And this is where so many step parents go awry, partly because kids' behavior is more irritated to step parents than it is.

For sure. But we have, I think we're up to 30 studies in counting. Parents need to retain the limit setting role. I can't believe you needed a study to tell you that, quite frankly, because that's just common sense. Well, it's common sense until you're a step-parent and you're irritated by the kid's behavior. Or what often happens is mom's house has no limits at all. And stepmom comes in and says, okay, we're going to have limits here. We're going to have social media rules.

We're going to have bedtime. plus kids' behavior is more irritating to step-parents. So they want more limits than parents do. But parents have to retain the disciplinary role. Always. It's a disaster the other way because the first thought for a child is, you're not my parent. That's right.

Now, when step-parents form a safe, caring, trusting relationship, some step-parents can move slowly into what we call authoritative parenting. But it's more likely with really young kids. It's less likely with older kids. And authoritarian, do this or else parenting. Step parents often want parents to do that. We have lots of research that's bad for kids.

Authoritarian step parenting, toxic for step parents, stepchild relationships. Say that one more time because I lost you. I want to be in that. Okay. Step parents often want parents to harden up and be more what we would call authoritarian. Do this or else, not warm enough. Authoritarian, kids need authoritative parenting.

They need warmth as well as limits. For sure. Step parents easily end up in that authoritarian parenting because kids' behavior is irritating, that kids are resist. The step parent gets frustrated, that step parent not knowing that this isn't going to work, It's more and more and more.

Step, authoritarian step parenting is toxic to stepparent, stepchild relationships. It's easy to slip into. Right. Want to hear some good news? Yeah. First of all, there is a very, very wide range of positive step-parent roles. Very wide range. But the good news is that we know what makes a positive, effective step-parent.

And it is relationship building. It's connection more than correction. Makes sense if you think about it. It's a brand new relationship with a kid who's been through a lot. How do you make a brand new relationship with a kid who's been through a lot? You go step by step. You find out about the kid. You be interested in the kid.

You play with the kid. You make food together that the kid likes. You shoot baskets. And you spend one to one time. because every time the parent is present, that's stronger parent-child relationship dominates. Pick off your stepkids, spend one-to-one time with them doing something that they really enjoy. And it turns out there's a really wide range of positive step-parent roles. As long as step-parents lead with warmth and not control, some are more like an uncle, more like an aunt,

some are more like a mentor. A lot of step-moms end up being really helpful with schoolwork and homework. sometimes it's just a warm, friendly adult. And the minority, there are there are a few who become parent-like. They tend to be with much, much younger kids. The good news is that whole wide range of roles is firmly connected to positive well-being for kids. You don't have to be parent-like to have a really positive impact on kids. Positive step-parent, step-child relationships.

kids have much better emotional and physical well-being. Negative also matters. Step-parents have child relationships that are very distant, that are conflicted, where the step-parent is authoritarian. Those kids have worse emotional and physical health. They have more chronic illness. Now, what often happens when you have a mom and a step-down, I think I said this earlier, is a step-mom wants to step in and make some order.

And Anne, she's often carrying the invisible load of parenting. She is making the lunches. She is arranging school stuff. And she's, the kids may be distant because they're struggling. And she's a left out outsider. And she's pissed to know that. And what I say to those stepmoms is you're going to have to ask your husband to step up. He needs to step up to more of this invisible.

burden because as long as you're carrying it, you're going to be pest because you're not going to get the love back that a parent gets. And you need to be free to make a friendship with these kids, to get to know them slowly, easily. And if you're busy and stressed, it's not going to work. It helps to have a roadmap. And that's why I'm so glad to be here. People don't have the roadmap. It really helps to have the roadmap. Otherwise, you're driving around Indianapolis with a map of the LA Freeway. You're going to make a hell of a lot of wrong turns and accidents and everybody's going to be mad at each other. That's right. All right. You use the phrase connection before correction. What does that actually look like? What it actually looks like is instead of

stepping in and I'm going to fix this family and make rules and find a stepmom, I'm just going to get to know this kid. What's sort of this kid's interests? How can I can be curious about this kid. If this kid looks a little down, I can say, boy, you look a little down today. How is that math test? A kid really loves a certain kind of ice cream. Let's go find that ice cream. What if you and I spend an hour together and let's go find your favorite ice cream at your favorite ice cream place? That's connection.

And kids may or may not be ready. It's hard when kids aren't ready. But the research is if you can stay present and keep coming back, kids come around, especially with adolescents if you give them some choice. I'd like to spend an hour with you. What do you want to do within this budget? Why does disciplining too early off and backfire? You know, we don't understand this completely.

We just have study after study after study after study. I think it's that kids are not ready for this person to step in and tell them what to do. Kids are just not ready. And what's needed first is a relationship. That's needed first. And kids in step families, it's not like a teacher in school can set rules. But you're not coming into that teacher in school with losses and loyalty binds and too much change too fast. you're coming into a step family as a kid with losses and loyalty binds and too much change too fast.

You need this step parent to just get to know me. For a step parent listening right now who's trying very hard and getting resistance from a child, what should they stop doing today? The first thing is see if you can step out of limit setting. It's going to be hard because a lot of the things the kids do irritate. you um the other is if you can i stop you for a second can i stop you for a second i'm the blame the parent guy yeah okay that's just who i am yeah blame him for well everything because they're the adult right okay right i mean if my children turned out bad it was because there was something

i didn't do to make them a priority to make them whatever Okay. That's my thing. It's about accountability and everything. And, you know, it's about not being put in a victim role. And I think, though, so many dads want to leave the parenting to the woman. So many dads. And we know now, we have a ton of research about how important father-child relationships are now. And we have joint custody now in this country. We didn't for a long, long time. I don't think it's that guys want to give that to the women. I think it's. It's, I don't think it's that. What I really think it is, in my situation, it was she just knew better. Yeah. And sometimes that's what guys say to me. She does it better.

And I say, yeah, and she's the stepmom. And so you're going to have to learn. And let's pick one. Let's pick one of these things that you're going to have to learn because leaving her to do all this, she may do it better. But you're leaving, you're putting a load on her. And that's going to make a. a yucky step family for you. I think you want a happy step family. This is not going to work.

Research shows parents and step parents often disagree on rules and discipline. Why does that happen so frequently? I think it's that oxytocin thing. I think it's that, first of all, parents have shared understandings. You know, when my husband and I got together, I'm in my second step family now. My daughter was 13 when I met him, and they're 12, which by the way is one of worst age as a 12-year-old girl. I didn't read the research, but we lived it. She and I had all kinds of habits that worked for us and didn't work for him, you know, standing in front of the refrigerator and eating. That was fine with me, but was really hard for him. You know, it's wasting electricity. She has learning disability, so I always had her do her homework in the kitchen.

Well, her stuff was everywhere. That was really hard for him. For me, as a single parent, she's right there. I can cook and help with homework at the same time. Work for me. So we have, first of all, shared understandings between the parent and the child of what's okay and what's normal. The other is, it's not my kid. I'm not getting goodies from this kid.

I didn't hold this kid as a baby. So I don't have that loving, you know, it's oxytocin. It's a positive, it's a positive, it's a hormone that comes with positive connection. And it makes you feel good. And it makes things less stressful. So as a parent, I got more oxytocin. I've got more.

It's easier for me when my kids do something. It's not so irritating. So you're her parents saying, ah, she's just being a kid. And you're her step-parents saying she's being rude because they experience it different. I'm married with my husband 30 years. He still thinks I'm too. wimpy with my daughter. But now it's a joke, you know, it's like.

Well, let me ask you a question. How old's your daughter? She's 43. What does she do? She is, well, she's a mom, a seven of five and a three-year-old. And she's a physical trainer. Okay. So it ended up working out real good for her.

What do you mean? Well, she turned out lovely. She's a mother. She's got three kids. Yeah. She gave you three grandchildren. So that's not nothing. Okay.

Right. I mean, it turned out. So you would have been right. You were right. Right. Well, he came in when she was about 12. So, you know. That's hard.

Yeah. He came in when she was a little bit along. This is something I know about. Okay. Girls from 12 to like 16, sometimes 17? Bad age. Yeah. Hard age.

Bad age. The hardest age. just to become part of a step family, although we're learning much more about what works. We're learning what works for making relationships between stepparents and adults and adolescent stepkids. But Patricia, they come back. Yes, they come back. They come back.

In the middle of it, you don't know that. You need a crystal ball. She's coming back. Don't worry. I knew it. I learned it. I didn't believe it either, but because of the woman I was with the first time, when I got there, her kid wasn't having it.

Yeah. I mean, it's not having it at all. Kid turned 18, the most fantastic human being on the face of the earth. Isn't that? This kid is just perfect. Just perfect. Great. And you know, you reminded me

as something that I always like to share that I always tell step-parents who are, they're befriending, they're not taken over, and the kids are still distant, hang in there. Because we have wonderful research about positive turning points in step-parent, step-child relationships. Sometimes it's the

step-parent who repairs. The step-parent says, boy, I came in like gangbusters. That must have been tough for you. Sometimes it's the kid who repairs. The kid turns 18 and says to their step-parent, I was a to you. I am so sorry. And sometimes something happens. So this is one of the families in my book, a daughter who was 12 or 13 when her stepmom came in. She's very, very close to her mom, and her mom has been bad-mouthing stepmom. So this daughter was not very available. I work with the couple to reassure mom,

to say to mom, stepmom is not going to replace you. We promise. That's what we believe, and that's what we're talking to the kids about. That loosened it a little. But five years down the road, that stepdaughter's younger brother has a strong relationship with his stepmom. He wasn't in a loyalty bind. The girl is still a bit distant. She has her first major broke up with a boyfriend. Now, mom and dad married right out of college, and mom and dad have no experience with breakups.

So they keep saying, you'll be fine, which of course is useless when you're heartbroken. Stepmom dated for 10 years. She knows about heartbreak. And so she catches her, stepdaughter's ear and says, it feels like your bones are going to break, doesn't it? And stepdaughter feels totally gotten. And that is the beginning of a turning point in that relationship. These things happen between step parents and stepchildren, sometimes years down the road. That was beautiful. I like that. We just tied a bow on that. It felt nice. Yeah. Yeah. Really sweet story. Step parents often want to adopt their step kids. In the United States, if a child is under 18, the parent must give permission.

If it's a stepdad who wants to adopt, the dad must give permission. And the dad disappeared. You mean that the dad, the dad that was left out? The dad that's, he must give, well, of course, it's his kid. That's right. The kid's over 18. The kid can decide. So that's the first thing.

The other thing is step tab wants to adopt his step kid because he's feeling really good about him. Step kid says no, because the step kid that makes a loyalty bind. That's right. Parent child relationships are forever, even a lousy parent child relationships with my dad. And here's the other thing in the United States. The parent disappears even from the birth certificate. In the UK, in the United Kingdom, a step-parent adopts and becomes another loving parent. There isn't a competition step legally. But in the United States, States. We haven't fixed them. Four challenges, we have to build a new family culture, but we've got, if we've got two sets

of kids, we have two teams with two different cultures. So how do we do that? And it turns out you do it slowly step at a time because we've got differences over everything from, well, you know, here's an older family. I mentioned them earlier. Dad is a 16-year-old daughter. dad comes from an upper middle class family when he turned 16 and his sister turned 16 his parents brought him a car a new car so to dad being a good dad is buying your kid a new car stepmom and her brothers worked their way through college earn their own first used car and for stepmom being a good parent is getting the kid to earn enough money to buy their own car so those differences come up and they come up in small things and big things. And it's real easy to argue over right and wrong. But what I say is it's a difference.

Can you talk about it and be curious? Can you be curious? So how do the Browns do it? How do the Smiths do it? And ultimately, you know, if the difference doesn't resolve, the parent has a final say. The parent has input. If only there was a way to split the baby and say,

will match it. Well, actually, in that family, dad agreed that his daughter should earn some of the he was going to buy the car, but she should earn some of it. He also agreed to buy her a good used car instead of a brand new car

because it was going to be too different from the 15-year-old step-sister who was coming up. And stepmom said, you know, that's the way you've always done it, you go for it. And she had to say to her own daughter, you know, in their family, they've always had a lot of money. The parents buy the kid a car. In our family, our family is different. We don't have as much money. You're going to have to earn part of it. I don't know why that hurt my soul.

It did. It hurt my soul because my daughter just turned 16 and I said, what kind of car do you want? Right. Yeah. And she goes, I don't know. Right. And I said, she goes, no, she goes, I don't know, I'll let you buy half of it. All right. And I said, this girl has a lot of them. That's right. And I said to her, I said, yeah, where are you going to get the other half? And she looked at me just with complete disgust.

And she says, I'm going to work. What's wrong with you? Good for her. Now, because we don't, remember, I said that too much change. too fast, kids don't adjust. So one of the, I call them easy wrong turns, is that a couple makes a whole bunch of new rules if you got two sets of kids.

So everybody's the same. This is giving me anxiety. But here's the dilemma. Now you have, if you don't make a whole bunch of new rules, and in fact, you're right, you've got anxious for a reason, it's one or two things, one or two things, and ask the same amount of change for each set of kids. Knock before you enter is automatic in one set set of kids.

And the other set of kids is used to walk in and out. So how do you find something that equalizes that? It means you're going to leave some things in place that are different. So a six-year-old Lisa says, why is my stepbrother Tommy allowed to drink Coke with dinner? And her mom says, yep, we've brought two families together. in their family they drink coke with dinner and our family we drink milk with dinner and when you grow up you can decide which is best do you know what everything in life that you ever needed to learn

you learn from team sports when you're a kid yeah that's what that's that's that's just the way i okay now relate back to this well i am okay in sports when you have a team you don't have a team you don't the same team next year. You get rid of some guys and you bring some guys in. And the good teams, the teams that win, okay, bring that guy in and love him up and treat him like a conquering hero. This guy's here to help us. This guy's here to make us win. This guy's here to be our brother. He is our new family. We only have each other. Okay. And it feels to me like when you come into a family, okay you know uh you should just move on in okay watch what's going on the people bringing him in are loving him up okay uh another example for the guy that's coming in you're playing a basketball

you're in the playoffs and this guy who's a star has been out the whole year all all year when he comes back into the playoffs he's not jumping into the starting lineup These guys have a rhythm. He's welcome to come in, feel it out, and fit in to the system. Right. And it feels to me like, you know, I know all the research and I know this is what you do for a living, but everything you said rings true and common sense. And it feels like this, no? Well, I think it gets more complicated.

So I just supervised a case this morning. dad has a daughter seven and a son 10 stepmom has a daughter seven they move in together they decide since the two girls are the same age they should share room now neither of these girls has had to has had another girl in the family they've both been the only girl and one girl has been the only girl. And mom and daughter moved into dad and his kids' fam home. So this little girl, the mom's sent mom's little girl, is the outsider in this house. She's the outsider moving into her step sister's bedroom. And for the stepsister's, this kid is moving into my bedroom. And you all grownups expect us to be close. And step sister has a friend, a really close friend. She doesn't want to

share of whether step sister. Step sister feels left. And, you know, there are lots of complications here. Yeah. All right. Fifth challenge. We got another parent outside the household. And we have a co-parenting relationship.

This is not a nuclear family. The research, 50 years of research, the worst for kids is not divorce. It's not single parent. It's not step family. It's conflict and adult tension. 50 years of research, and that's in both first-time families and step-families. Conflict is the worst for kids. Kids with divorced, low-conflict parents are doing better than kids with never-divorced, high-conflict parents.

So conflict and adult tension is really important to protect kids from. That's probably the most important thing about having two houses. The other is that oftentimes there are differences between houses. And the differences are okay if the adults can be respectful. So Tommy says on a school night, Mama lets me watch TV on school nights. This is a lesbian couple. And his mom says, yeah, and mama's house.

She doesn't say, yeah, Mama never could set a damn limit. She says, yeah, in Mama's house, you can watch TV on school nights. In this house, you watch TV on weekends. And when you grow up, you can decide which is better. I know sometimes it's hard having these two different houses. It's they don't ask to be here. Yeah, that's right. Don't ask to be.

See, the problem I'm having is because we do different things. Yeah. I'm the one treating these kids, okay, after they've been by these parents. Right. And using drugs to try and deal with it. Right. So I'm so pissed off when I, this is why I've been so pissed off. Well, and here's part of the dilemma.

One of the things I teach. people is you're trying to give people the right roadmap and we know it's the right roadmap but you know corrective information isn't that easy to take in and how do you provide corrective information especially if you're ready to strangle the person you know how do you first find what you do get you know of course you have a little humility and you stop being a pain in the ass that's right no yeah yeah yeah Last question. Social media is full of stepmom advice, parenting, influencers, and picture perfect family portrayals in movies and TV. What are some of the biggest myths people are being sold and what advice out there makes you cringe because it simply isn't supported by research? Oh, God. How do I choose? I mean, part of what's so painful, stepmoms are in such pain. They're in such. They're in such.

pain. And they're saying things like, listen, I'm doing the driving, I'm doing the cooking, I'm doing all of this invisible work. I should be able to have control in my own house. I should be able to set the rules. Makes logical sense. It makes some emotional sense, and it isn't going to work. It isn't going to work. That's probably the worst. But the amount of pain, particularly there are lots and lots of stepmom sites, there's no roadmap. And what I say is there is a roadmap. You just don't have it. Here are the two places to go look for it.

There really is a roadmap. There really is. And when you're trying to drive in Indianapolis with a map of Los Angeles, yeah, you're going to have a lot of accidents. It feels to me like it's really simple. It does. If you're dealing with children and you're coming in and they're not yours, okay? There's nothing to get. get there's only to give.

Well, and if you have, and if you can't do that, then you shouldn't be there. Well, and it's hard to give to kids who are ignoring you. You know, if I. No, it's not. No, it's not. Not if you're in a, no, no, no. If you're not, if you're not living in a trailer, okay, then it's not. If you're involved, it's not.

I think you're wrong about that. I think we wish it was not true, but we are wired to. that when another person walks in and doesn't even say hello to me, it's painful. Understanding why is helpful. If I understand that my stepdaughter's mother is badmelting me, and therefore my stepdaughter cannot look at me, that takes the anger away. I don't have to blame the kid for being rude. Doesn't take the pain away.

And it's still painful, and I, stepmom, am still going to need some extra support for dad. By the way, privately, physical contact between step couples. What parents often say is, I want to show my kids a positive relationship. Well, kids don't want to watch you with somebody who's not their parent. It turns out to muck them up. So be physical. Just do it in private. If you're going to show the kids a different relationship, show them your kindness, show them your caring, showing your respect for each other. But yeah, I've been rejected by my stepdaughter who came down and barely said hello to me, I'm going to need a hug later. And it's going to help a lot. That's just human. You are a blessing and a scholar. And I am so grateful that you

came on the show today. You have no idea. Well, I'm glad to be here. Where can people find you? They can find my mind. I have an unusual name. You Google my name. and you will find my website. It has lots of podcasts and videos on it. And easy to find. I don't take new referrals any longer, but I will help you find somebody. If you're going to look for a therapist,

look for somebody who knows something about stepfamilies and they don't exist. They don't exist. That's so great. Thank you so much. It was great to meet you. See you next Tuesday, everyone. We're out of time.

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