What Bitcoin Did - Capitalism Is Dead: The Rise of the AI Surveillance State | Erik Cason

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

“I think the primary product that they’re the most interested in selling is AI psychosis.” Erik Cason returns to discuss why he believes American capitalism has already ended, how AI could accelerate the rise of the surveillance state, and why owning your own AI could become as important as holding your own Bitcoin. We also get into AI dependence, his warning of a “digital 9/11”, the competition between Chinese open models and American AI companies, and the personal AI system he’s building. Erik explains how Bitcoin and cryptography fit into this future, and why Bitcoin could become essential for paying for AI when governments restrict access. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: LEDN - Explore Bitcoin-backed loans and get 0.25% off your first loan. SWAN - Buy Bitcoin, Build Wealth. Discover Swan’s Bitcoin products for individuals and businesses. ANCHORWATCH - Insured Bitcoin custody, security & inheritance. Book a consultation: BITKEY - Get 10% off the new Bitkey wallet with code WBD. CAPE - Get 33% off your first six months with code WBD. FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/_DannyKnowles Erik Cason: https://x.com/Erikcason

The AI story and the Bitcoin story marry up in the final act. I very much believe that, like, we are at the phase in AI, that, like, this is full-on human experimentation at this point in time. Like, I think the primary product that they're the most interested in selling is AI psychosis. I do think we'll get the dark dystopian view for people who don't get AI, and I've taken a Luddites approach to it and been like, this is too powerful, I can't deal with it, I don't understand it. Like, that's how you'll get frontier-level AI that traps you in a way.

that you're in a hall of mirrors you can never escape. On the other side, you'll have free people that have their own self-sovereign personal AIs that answer to them and them alone. This is unequivocally the most powerful tool that humanity has ever been given, and the question is, is it going to work for you and be loyal to you?

Or is somebody else going to own it? Like, I hold Bitcoin because I know how this story plays out. And I also know at some point, the only way that I'm going to be able to pay for access to models in China, because the Americans are absolutely going to cut us off from that, is that I'm going to be able to be able to be able route through Tor and I'm going to be able to pay for the model in Bitcoin.

I want to start as somewhere different Eric. Okay. I'm going to give you two potential future scenarios. We have like the utopian future scenario where AI leads to cures for diseases, scientific breakthrough. We have, you know, abundant energy. We have abundant natural resources. The world is beautiful and it's always sunny. On the other side, there's like the dystopian potential future where there's control, surveillance, autonomous drones like roaming the streets, complete control over thought, and worst case scenario, AI kills us all. Which of those two scenarios, first of all, do you think is most likely? And then which one do you think we are closest to right now? Which path are we on the way down? I like how you actually line this up because we just had

Michael Millerman here a couple weeks ago, who's a philosopher that I've both read and that Jesse studies with. And he was pointing out that Alexander Dugan has like an astrological way of sort of reading and understanding the world. And AI's deeply eshological, particularly from, you know, like Sam Altman, Dario, like all of them are pushing an actual narrative of like, this thing's dangerous. It could end the world. Like, but we'll cure diseases and cancer and that's just like getting started. So like, first to like tee up, this is an astrological vision that's being fed to all of us. What does that actually mean? Sorry, that would. It's the religious idea of dealing with the end of times

and how the end of times unfolds. And so using that as sort of a way of viewing and understanding the world in crisis is historically, essentially how most religious movements saw and understood when they encountered crisis. And so, like, that's the same thing that's being done today, but the volume's cranked up in a new and different way. And in some ways, we could actually say it truly actually is eshological.

And that's actually one of the ways that I view it as well. And I view it that way because AI is fundamentally, in a lot of ways, AI is actually kind of the oldest technology because it's really a linguistic first and foremost. And so you're really kind of dealing with magic in a particular way. And like when I say that, I mean in the deepest ideas of what magic is and how language is something that can actually conjure things out from the imaginary into the real.

And it's also very important to highlight that like the imaginary is not the non-real. the non-real. And like that, that's a particular point that Deiadere is very pedantic about. Wait, you've got to explain that to me. The imaginary is not the unreal. Yeah, because, like, it's through the imagination of things that, you know, we can think of the idea of a train and be like, well, hey, check. If I, like, keep all this water and boil it together, I can do this thing that, like, then charges this. And, like, whoa, look, we invented a train. And, like, that didn't, we didn't just, like, spontaneously put the train together. We, like, used our thought and reasoning in order to like make something imaginary into the real.

And so, but like to get back to that original question, which one do I think? Well, let's, yeah, let's do it one at a time. Like, which one do you think is the most likely outcome from where we stand right now? I think it's all about how you approach and understand the technology. And so like, I do think we'll get the dark dystopian view for people who don't get AI. And I've taken a lot of its approach to it and been like, this is too powerful. I can't deal with it.

I don't understand it. Like that, that's how you'll get frontier level AI that traps you in a way that you're in a hall of nears, you can never escape. On the other side, you'll have free people that have their own self-sovereign personal AIs that answer to them and them alone. It'll be the most loyal, personal relationship

they've really had with anything, and they'll see it as an extension of their second self. And what's most important is that, like, it's not going to just be a narcissistic reflection of you. It's going to engage in a deeply child-realistic, relationship with you where it's through the defense how you define the relationship to one another that you empower one another and so it's going to look a lot more like a friendship or a mentorship or some different sort of relationship other than just a chat bot so you think we're going to have

almost like a parallel society two separate societies living together where there's the free people and the enslaved people i think for a while and i think as that notches up they'll both become much less tolerant towards each other. And, like, frankly, like, this all spills out into, like, space war at some point in time. And, like, that's the actual physical frontier that, like, this winds up in. Because, like, it's very important to understand that, like, AI gets us into space in a new and radical way. And that that's a new topological space that has not been contested yet. And it will be contested, particularly by corporations with how things are going.

So, yeah, like, the, a lot of the Dumerisms coming out of, of the Anthropics and the Open AIs of the world right now. Do you think that some of the concerns that they have are actually valid? Do you think we do need to slow down the pace of development in AI? No. Like the way that they approach it is from like the most chicken shit,

pansy, pussy view of the world where it's like, oh, oh God, someone's going to hurt me. I better call the authorities to do it because I can't defend myself. Oh, God, please help me government. Like, fuck these people. These are the same people that are going to be like, oh, oh, like, look, we just got to listen to the Nazis. Like, if you guys are just good and, like, live in your little ghetto, like, everything will be okay.

Like, why can't you just listen to the government? Like, Hitler loves you and he loves us. Like, come on, guys, we did this whole game in the 20th century, and it's really absurd and it's obnoxious. And frankly, it's horrifying. Like, I live with a lot of these people. Like, we live in a fucking paradise, and these people have somehow trans... Like you were saying earlier, like, this is not the city that I grew up within idealizing. Like, they've wrecked it with their really thoughtless and immature ideology that, frankly,

doesn't actually stand up to any real critiques, but just wants to shout other people down as being whatever discriminatory thing they want to label people as. And that's the same methodology they're going to get of why AI has to be controlled by them, because they love everyone and you don't. So, I mean, I totally agree with that. One of the things that's crazy is Dario was saying that he would give up control of Anthropic to a group of governments, essentially,

which is a terrible outcome. Like, I would much rather... Sorry, you go on. I just want to point out, like, this is astrological again. Like, in the Bible, it talks about it at the end of times. Like, we get a one-world government that literally wants to give a number

to every single person on the planet, it. Like, look, like, I don't, I don't like where all of this is pointing, but, like, that's, that's, like, fact. That's, like, stuff that people talk about. That's, like, actually in the Bible. That's, like, look, like, I didn't line it up this way, but that seems to be what's happening. And that is, like you say, one world government, that's the global panopticon, and it's a terrifying outcome. But, like, their fears, or at least what they say publicly is that, like, they think internally at these frontier labs, the AI has, say, a 10% chance of wiping out humanity. Do you think that's just nonsense or do you think it doesn't matter we still can't give up

any power to, you know, we can't give up this. It's absolutely nonsense because first you have to define what is humanity. Like if you can actually define that form, like is it every single person? Like is it as I got that literally just came into, like where is it the line at and how do we define it? And why are you guys in charge of deciding who is and is not in that? And like Carl Schmidt very much points out that like whoever invokes humanity is a cheater because like that's a term that's used, that's a fictionalization that doesn't exist. But is that semantics, though? Does that matter?

Like, let's say it has the potential 10% chance to wipe out 90% of people. Like, I don't know if the word humanity matters there when that's what we're talking about. Well, and so like this is sort of the trickery that I was pointing about like why this is the oldest of technologies is like, this is really about our being and like how do we define what makes us human. Like, is it intellect? Is it, like, is it this thing that we call intelligence, or is it this other thing that's deeper and beyond that? And what's so important about this panoptic surveillance thing is that, like, this is really about the control of the self-image and, like, how you create and define yourself. And, like, I've been kind of in AI psychosis lately around this idea

that I got from Plato and the Republic, and it's called the, I'm going to butcher it, but it's the catacopreciatron. And it's the idea of that, in the mirror reflection when you see yourself, the recognition that that is not you. And it's very important the bifuriation of seeing and recognizing your physical body as you are, but that is not you. Because like this is something that AI does not have access to and cannot understand. You are just a bunch of heuristics that it measures.

And it doesn't have any way to actually understand that deeper light within you. And furthermore, like the become. that is you. And like, that's very important because if we don't get to actually retain and have control over our self-image, we can get caught in a recursive thing that, like, essentially, we flatten ourselves into what Herbert Marcuse would call the one-dimensional man. Like, we essentially just become an image of consumerism.

And what's interesting is, like, AI essentially extends it into a two-dimensional man in that, like, now the feedback mechanism of clicks, likes, social media, whatever is best predicted about you becomes what you are. And so like the agency that I have to choose who and how I become is controlled in a way that I don't know or understand. It's like being lost in a series of mirrors. And we've already lost that control, right?

That's gone. Yeah. And what's interesting though is that, like, you would have thought that all of it was taken away, because right, like, everything's surveilled, everywhere, everything's measured. But with the advent of stuff, like the meta-glasses, like now, like, looking at where your eyeballs is looking at. Like, getting closer and closer, same thing with, like, the quantified self.

And, like, I can measure my sleep. I can measure my heart rate. I can measure my blood pressure. I can measure everything. And at what point do we actually lose who we actually are inside of all of that and the predictions about us versus the very real agency to say, you know what? We can actually allow for something different to come about us. Maybe we don't need all of these things of feedback.

And furthermore, what do I do to myself in relationship to the feedback about this? And that's what's so important about the reflection of the mirror is recognizing that, like, not just that it's your body, but that like you're in control of that. This is your image. You can cut your hair. You can do whatever to actually change your appearance and transform. Very similar to what you get each moment to moment moving forward about choosing who and how you get to exist.

And the sort of logical endpoint there from the metaglasses to like Apple Watch. or whatever is the neuralink and you have the brain chip. It sounds like you want to reject all this technology, but you're building stuff in AI. Like, where do you draw the line and what is acceptable and what's too far? It's all about like the locality of agency and control. And so it's really about, to me, the age of AI is fundamentally about where do we choose to set the line of demarcation.

And this is where it all relates back to my work in crypto sovereignty very directly, is that like cryptography is the demarcation. the demarcation line with AI that we get to draw where we say, not beyond here, you can't come past here. And AI, as proficient as it is, and as much as it can actually find very real bugs in actual cryptographic libraries, the core mathematics from the basis of like,

if we're just doing dice rolls per se, actually does work. And so like, there's this very beautiful thing that exists inside of language and inside of the expression of language as cryptography that allows for their all always to be this ability to actually keep things hidden. And like, in my opinion, like, that fact in and of itself alone fully rescues humanity from AI. Like, because there will always be a possibility to tuck things away and keep things hidden from it that it can never calculate.

Do you think that's true, though? Do you think it's impossible this idea that AI, as it, you know, gets more intelligent, as it sort of becomes self-recursive, can't break cryptography? Like, will it not come up with new novel math that can break cryptography at some point? point. I think it'll be a cat and mouse game, you know, because like quantum computing is going to introduce new methodologies, but that's even limited by Grover's algorithm, you know? And so mathematics in and of itself, like unless we can get, uh, like if, if P is ever equal to MP, or I'm probably pushing it, like the, that would actually collapse things, but I think that would fundamentally transform thing. And, and I think the actual physical limits of what,

computational is capable of based upon our understandings of cryptography, like, is where this demarcation line happens inside of language that we can essentially allow to create a architecture that, in my opinion, like, is the fundamental dwelling of man, because man lives inside of language. And like, we need a space for ourselves that we actually keep to and for ourselves alone. And like the problem with something like a neuralink is, is like, if you're not in control of that, eventually like your thoughts themselves could betray you. If you hold Bitcoin long enough, there's going to come a time when you need some dollars. It might be a tax bill, a business expense, life getting in the way, but whatever it is,

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feel like I got the answer to if you think AI can kill a large number of humans. Absolutely. Do you think that's a real narrative? Yeah, I mean, it's happening now. Like, that's, that's, like, not, that's not a narrative. What do you mean it's happening now? Like, we already learned that, like, 90% of people that the U.S. military kills by fucking drone strikes is done through anonymous choices.

Like, like, that. That is AI murdering people. Like, now that we're strapping guns to the back, these fucking walking robot dogs and they're actually shooting people, like, yeah, the crisis is accelerating. And, like, the thing that's going to save us isn't, like, giving this technology to governments.

It's like giving this technology to individuals. It's the same reason why the Second Amendment is so important and it's the same reason why we actually have the right to bear arms. It's not, like, this isn't about a hunting thing. Like, this is literally about the ability to defend yourself. And the only thing that's going to save you from a bad, that dude with an AI is a good dude with an AI. And like, you need to be that good dude.

I feel like that's a different thing though, because, and I think it's just as real a threat in that the fear there is who controls the AI and what they do with the AI. The other side is the AI deciding itself it wants to kill humans not being told by the US government with limit, like, with no restriction to go and kill certain humans. That it just goes fully autonomous and it's just like, I'm going to murder everybody. And maybe not out of, yeah, like there's the paperclip through it. a million different theories of how that would play out and the reasons that it play out.

But do you think it could decide on its own that humans should no longer exist? I mean, like, I wouldn't give it a non-zero chance. Like I think we've anthropomorphized on top of these in a very real way. And I do think that like, I don't, and to be clear, like, I don't think there's any individual out there who's like, let's build an autonomous robot that'll kill humanity. But I absolutely think there are governments out there doing this. And like this is the thing I'm freaking. out about that like makes me really upset is that like Anthropic has actually used

Claude to fucking kill people. Like that, that happened. And like they have the audacity to call themselves the human company. Like this is all so insane on so many levels. And like I just, I really want to highlight like they're gaslighting you super hard. Like why else would they actually be working with the DOD and then be like, no, like, we don't want to do this. But, like, they were the ones that first actively sought out a contract with them. Like, you guys are being played.

These guys don't care about humanity. Like, they're trying to use this technology to implement control over you. Like, that's the same reason why you get $8,000 worth of clod credits for $200. Like, you're the product. But why are they gaslighting? Do you think this is that they've realized that open source models coming out of China are too competitive? They don't really have the moat that they thought they once did and they want to protect the company ahead of IPO? Uh, yes.

And, uh, like, look, like, I think this just plays out, like, Dario, in my opinion is Eichmann. Like he, he's a, like, he's going to do his job. He's going to send the trains to Auschwitz. Like, he's just doing his job as a CEO. He's just trying to make his company successful. But like, the thing that's deeply alarming is that, like, his effective altruism ideology, like, clouds his ability to actually,

actually stop and self-reflect on like what he's doing is actually much, much more alarming than if he was to actually like make his models open source and actually like choose that that is the methodology of how we actually choose to let this technology flourish. And like, he's going to lose because of how well the open models are doing and how much they're going to continue to do well. Do you think so like right now I don't know what you would think the open source models coming out of China, like in terms of how far behind the frontier models, is it, is it, is it, is it, are we down to like a few months behind? Is it that close now?

It is that close, but also it's like, it depends on what benchmarks and measurements you're using. And, like, I feel strongly of the opinion that, like, the fine tunings that are going to go on top of the models that are going to allow for them specializations, like, that's, that's where stuff's going to get super interesting. Because, like, this is where you're going to get very powerful distilled models that will do single tasks extremely well. And those sort of, like, this is the same reason that communism doesn't work.

Like, you can't homogenize everybody and have a command and control economy. Like, it doesn't work. But, like, if you actually have free markets and allow for people to pick and choose what they want, like this is going to cause for a flourishing of, you know, in my opinion, tens of thousands of different models that are all going to be most likely free and open source. Like, there's going to be all kinds of different weird and interesting combinations. But the idea that that you can try. drive the cost of production towards zero and that people aren't going to then freely distribute it because it costs zero.

Like the thing has ate itself. And like I'm of the opinion, like, essentially what AI is is like it is the conquest of technology over capitalism through the overproduction of like the means of technology, which is software. You said then that this is capitalism eating it? Is this the end of capitalism, do you think, as we know it? Like, as we know it, but also like the, like, what we're getting is something really weird after it. And like, it's, I don't really know what to call it, but it's definitely like part of the post-politics. But also, like, we haven't had capitalism for quite a while. Like, that ended in 2000, that ended on September 11, 2001, if not sooner.

You know, like, there's strong arguments of where and when that collapsed. But in my opinion, the thing that we have called American-style capitalism, like, yeah, that's at the end. And it's because, like, our extraordinary privilege that we've gotten from the Brenton-Wood system is, like, came to an end. So. Why do you think capitalism ended on September 11th, 2001? Obviously, I know the event, but what changed?

I think specifically at that point in time, governments made it clear that they were going to use the national security powers to essentially override anything that was going to happen in the economy. And so between 2001 and 2008, like, that was essentially a consolidation period, like under, I don't really know what you'd kind of call this, like, quasi-military state thing. But then after 2008, with like the strong derogism that the U.S. government displayed in their, like, full intervention in that, it became clear, like, okay. like economics is like off the table at this point in time. And we've really just been an intergorum like up until now. And what's interesting is that like AI was one of these things that was talked about all the way back then that I, like, you can go deep in conspiracy theories about the plans and things around this. Like I don't know if any of that's true. But what I do know is that like AI is actually here.

It's going to radically transform the economy. And because like technology is such a large sector of our economy and like the stuff we're already seeing blow. my mind. You know, like we, we manufactured a daughter board for Vora that was done at a 50th of the cost and 50 times faster than anything that like our hardware guy had seen before. And like, that is purely because AI was just applied to it. And he found a company out in Brooklyn that, like, they are literally, they just bought the actual machine that like does the printing, trained AI on it and just like let it rip. And like, that exists now. And so like everything is going to get transformed and turned upside down through this.

And the question is, is like, are we going to go in a direction that we go, yeah, like, give the government full control of this? Or are we going to say no, like we, at least over here, like, we can say, no, like, we're American and like we're entitled to certain rights in our constitution that you can't take away. And it's very clear that AI is, it's probably covered under the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth amendment, at least. And so, like, there's going to be a very powerful battle that is fought over this.

And then even when it's been fought, like, the cryptography on the back end means, like, what are you going to do? Like, how are you going to get that private key? Because, like, unless you have a novel way to break cryptography that nobody else knows about, like, let's see it. I want to see what's in your special briefcase. But before that, you said, like, you don't know what to call whatever comes next post-capitalism. But what does it look like, do you think?

It's like hype. You're going to get a fracturing of different worlds. And so it's like Cold War 2.0 on hyper technological steroids. And so like that means like you get an American version of it. That means a fusion of the corporate surveillance state and the government. So you get your flocks, your palanteers. Like these will become the leading S&P 500 companies because like we will sell our own surveillance back to ourselves like as stock shares. Yeah, it's pretty insane. In places like China, you. you'll get pretty much what they've been doing. The Chinese took a very interesting approach and that, like, they lock down the physical side first so that they could release these open source models because they knew, like, this would destroy our society. And so the question is, we can do, like, what the Chinese are doing. And, like, what Larry Ellison, who is Oracle,

which also is part of the surveillance state and is also, like, on the stock exchange. And so, like, that is one very distinct version we get. The other is, is like, we can actually choose to use political agency to, like, fight back against this stuff. That, like, I feel like unless you actually organize that under a revolutionary front versus a democratic front, it's pointless. But, you know, like, I'm open to the possibilities because, like, we kind of need all the help what we can get. It sounds quite scary. This is, like, a real fracturing of everything that we know, really, in the world today.

Look, like, at my deepest level, like, I actually think this is astrological. Like, I fundamentally think that this deals with the end of times. You owning, like, your own self-sovereign AI is essentially going to be messianic because the way it's going to save your ass repeatedly in the coming crisis. Like, shit's going to unhinge. It's clear that, like, people in government, like, there's a great quote from Hannah Arendt where she's talking about the idea of brinkmanship and nuclear holocaust. And that, like, the idea of winning in a nuclear war is, like, so fundamentally insane. and is, like, so removed from anything that could ever be called victory historically.

And, like, that's what we're entering into. And, like, again, I want to emphasize, like, there isn't some, like, evil, wicked dude out there being, like, mohaha, I can kill humanity. It's, like, a government out there who's, like, let's kill those other people who, like, aren't like us. And it's the government's being like, well, they're going to do it, so we have to do it.

And this is the whole escalation that, like, none of them will stop. And so the thing that you can do is, but what we can do is we can close. collectivize ourselves. We can actually use our self-sovereign AIs and, you know, we'll be able to note them up and networking them up and allow from the talk and exchange data and do it in various new innovative ways through things like BitChap or other means. And like, we're all going to become much more powerful and much more sovereign, can organize ourselves quickly, can have much more fluid and robust conversations, and we can filter out all the noise. Like, this is unequivocally the most

powerful tool that humanity has ever been given. And the question is, is it going to work for you and be loyal to you? Or is somebody else going to own it? And like, this just brings us all the fucking way back to Plato and the question of who watches the watchman. And like, that's what it's all about. It's just about authority over a tool and a function. It's almost like a nation state level prisoners dilemma with AI. Yep. Terrifying. So, okay, then, so I know obviously you're building Vora, you said that like a personal AI that is loyal to you will save you. How will it save you? Well, one is that like through it being loyal, like it's going to have greater, for lack of a better word,

offensive capabilities. So like, you know, things that we have talked about before is like somebody walks into the perimeter of your property. Wouldn't it be really great to have, say, a drone system that automatically deploys and gather to surveillance on them and reports back to you and notifies you and you get a notification of your phone while you're in the shower that says, hey, there's some creepy looking guys here in masks, because they matched what I believe to be like intruders.

Like I chose to use the alarm or release the dogs with, or release the bees, release the dogs with the bees in their mouths. You know, like there's a whole series of options here that we can take. But like that's because, and like, do you think Tesla is going to give you access to, like, are they going to deploy the drones with the bees in them? You know, like, same thing with like, we're going to all have robots in our homes. who do you want to have access to that? Yeah, meta?

Like, they would never give us a technology that, like, lives on, say, like, our face that surveils everything and, like, share that with real humans, you know? Like, they, like, Mark Zuckerberg is someone that I trust with my data and privacy. And, like, he would never betray me. For anybody who thinks I'm not being facetious, I'm being incredibly facetious. I mean, I won't even have, like, an election in my house because I'm worried about the surveillance.

There's, like, there's no chance I'm having a robot in my house that's run by one of these mega-competious. You can't figure out any of those network connections or other shit, but your loyal personal AI can. Huh, like, okay. Like, now I can kind of see where we're going. Okay. So, like, now people are trying to sell you shit on the internet and, you know, like, let's say you're too fat. And, you know, they're trying to sell you a Zempic, but you don't want that.

So you just say, hey, I don't want it on pharmaceuticals. Could you just block, like, all food ads that come to me? Or, you know, like, however you want to experience the internet now, like, you can actually request it. you know what, like, uh, if I'm going to access like some nasty porn site or something, like force me, like, you have access to my wallet, just like steal money from my Bitcoin wallet. And like, yeah, like, you can use it to like fund some inference that like you'll do on your own like about my journal or something. I don't know. But like you get to have this whole different

relationship. And furthermore, like, it cryptographically proves itself to you that like it's not releasing and leaking your information everywhere. And like you have the actual attestation that The goal with VOR is to essentially make it from the sole country software. You can essentially validate every single component of it from the hardware to the software that like, this thing is loyal to you. It's not leaking any information.

It's not phoning home. There's no everything that comes in and out of it. Like you're going to actually know and approve. And as the AI learns you better and better, it gets to know your habits better. You guys develop a more loyal relationship. It figures out more and more of the things that you want it to figure out about you,

more places that you can ask it to challenge you and all the different personality types in between because it's free and open source software that like you own outright. It lives on the hardware that belongs to you. And like this is the new world that we're going into. And like this is also the relationship that like you and me were promised. We like grew up before the internet. This thing was introduced to us that we're like, look at this beautiful, crazy place where people can choose to be new and different and we can share openly and our identities can be something. can be something that we selectively share.

Like, that was the vision that we were sold on. And like, we got this hunk of shit that's coming to eat humanity now. And like, we can steal the fire back from these people and, like, deliver it to ourselves. And like, that is truly a Promethean task that only we can do. Like, our kids aren't gonna get this opportunity

and our parents don't understand this. This is like destined for our generation alone. And like, as Bitcoiners, we actually like get nine, intense of this. We like get the cryptography thing. We like get the self-hosted and the self-owned thing. We understand all of it. Like connect the last dot to cognition. Because like we learn the lesson of like not your keys, not your coin. You're now going to learn the next lesson of like if you don't own your own personal hardware, it's not going to be loyal to you. So I'm imagining this is what's in your Dr. Evil briefcase. Yes. Let's see. We have developed a

counter weapon. And our counter weapon. This is so dramatic, Eric. Look, this is the only way that you present weapons. And actually, I have to thank Nick George, our hardware guy, who's amazing, who also designed it. But so this is the Vora Aegis. This is your 64-gigabyte unified V-RAM hardware. That runs on a Strix halo chip.

and we have spent a lot of time designing it and making it very beautiful because we believe that part of the sort of return of the focus of life, which the word focus in Latin actually means hearth, because that's where the focus of the household was, is that like we have to bring that back to the home. It needs to actually, like, physically live in the home. It needs to be part of beautiful hardware that makes you feel comfortable and warm and inspires you.

And that isn't just a stupid black or white box. or whatever. Because like this is truly, again, in my opinion, like this is something monumental that's occurring in humanity that is like something destined only for our generation. Like, we get to bring AI into this world and we get to choose. Like, will it be something that supports the human freedom, liberation, an agency of all people everywhere? Or are we going to give this to governments for them to tighten control and to more deeply define who and how we are supposed to be? And like, this very much engages directly into Heidegger's ontological questions and specifically around the question concerning technology, which is like one of his latest essays that specifically we dealt with the

nature of technology and the real danger of us getting captured into what he calls a gestalt with his like in framing, this idea that like you're not a person anymore, you're just like all of the subsets of data about you, that like the forest is no longer a place for nature to flourish, but is a reserve of timber. You know, the, the beautiful river is, something to be contemplated for how it feeds the world, but is to something to be damned up and used for hydroelectric energy. And like, that's how AI sees and understands the world when it is something that is not under your control,

because it gets to decide for you and make the decisions for you. Whereas, like, if you actually control it, you can choose how it responds to you. Like, you can do the trainings on it. You can actually look at the weights and how it's functioning. And like, all of that is going to become, definitive in the future that we get, and more importantly for our children too.

You know, like, I am building and doing this so that, like, my children can inherit this and get all of my digital information, all of my photos, all the information that I want them to have about me through this thing that, like, own, that I own, that lives in my house, that's encrypted with my keys, that is recoverable through a meaningful system, and, like, I finally have a home for my digital life. Like, that's something we've never had before.

before. Like, all of this shit's been stolen from us and scattered amongst the digital feudal lords that, like, govern our digital lives. You know, like, you and I don't own this recording. You know, like, Riverside owns it. Google owns it through their pipes. Like, we're probably not even entitled to the content of this yet. Like, there's probably some weird thing like that. And, like, that's something to really be considered. If you already self-custody Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets, complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen or forgotten. Bitkey fixes that.

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That's anchorwatch.com. So tell me, like, hold up to the camera. I can't see it properly. Do it, like, face it this way. I want to see what it looks like. Okay. It's kind of hard to see it. It looks cool, though.

So tell me how this works. Like, what's in the box? When someone buys this, what do they get? There's like a local AI model running inside that. Yeah, so first of all, Jesse Posner, my co-founder, brilliant cryptographer. He's developed a dual-LL system, LLM system that specifically isolates through different virtual machines.

a series of different AI workers that essentially have scales and tiers. And the ultimate goal is that the AI that lives most deeply inside of here is paired with something that we call the Me DD, which essentially is the me database that pulls in all the digital information about your life. Like this thing will be the greatest honeypot of information about you that has ever existed. And that's why we brought Bitcoin level security to this. And so that lives isolated alone in there. And it speaks through what we're calling synthesis workers,

And Jesse's developed this whole system that essentially defeats what's called the lethal trifecta of AI. So that, like, it has the ability to access personal and private information, but any AI that searches for outside information essentially gets only redacted content from the inside. And any information that flows back in gets sanitized in a particular way so that the deepest internal worker, like, it can't really even, like, take commands. There's, like, a number of sort of fixed ways that it can respond. And this is to make sure that, like, there can never actually be prompt poisoning that, like, infects it, essentially. And even if that does happen, there's a whole series of operations of Providence that you can essentially roll back to where before something got poisoned or tainted.

And so all of this lives on top of hardware that you own. And it runs on the AMD Strix Halo chip. And it's 64, it's 64 gigs of V byte RAM. And that means that, like, you can run a pretty powerful model. You know, like right now we're getting about 100 tokens a second. We're using Gemma 4. We're now experimenting with Ornith. We're going to probably continue iterating and upgrading as we get better and better and more efficient models.

But we chose this as our starting point because we think this gets you something powerful enough that it can perform really well doing pretty much all of the tasks that you needed to for like you personally. And then for anything more advanced, you can easily call on a frontier AI through something like, say, like Maple AI and just be able to execute that in the T so that you can use a model like Kinney K3 and not actually leak any information. And same thing, like we'll have a way that we essentially

provide encrypted cloud backups with methodologies that's very similar to multi-sig key recovery. Because originally Vora originally started as like we were trying to make like the highest level security Bitcoin vault. And as we got deeper into this, we're like, gee, this like AI thing's like really fun and like it would be great to have a personal one owned all your own personal data. And we're like, hey, wait a minute.

Like, these things work together. And so when you say it's like, did you say 100 tokens per minute? Per second. That's like when, essentially, like the way that is calculating and doing its token output, like, that's what it's achieving is 100 tokens per second. And then, you know, like any prompt can take anywhere from,

you know, a couple seconds to upwards of, you know, maybe 30 seconds to like get a response. And that's all based upon like, how much performance you can actually get out of it. Okay, so that's what I was going to ask. I was going to say, what does that translate to in real life? But that's relatively quick. Yeah, yeah.

And so most will be pretty quick, but if you ask it like a pretty complex question, you know, it's going to kind of iterate and think and I'll tell you, and you'll be able to see like the chain of thought that's sort of going through it. And the way that works is like, you essentially plug it in in your home and like it doesn't have an interface or a screen or anything. You pair it with your phone. There's a mobile app it pairs with and you set up the whole app through that. There's a desktop app that you use it as well.

But so the idea is that like, this is your personal private home that you use an app to SSH in to whatever you, like anytime you want access to your photos or anything else, you can access it through there. And then if your phone gets pond or your computer gets owned, like you can essentially, nothing in here is going to get infected or taken away from you because the way that the AI is going to be protecting all that personal information.

And when can I get mine? You can go to vora.io now and you can reserve your pre-reservation, We're looking at a couple different sales channels right now, but we're hoping to probably actually have the launch, hopefully before Black Friday. We're kind of like looking at different times to like have the full launch go down. But so we're sort of in the pre-sale campaign right now.

You should sign up. And yeah, like the big goal is, is that like we truly believe that we are at this place in humanity, that like everybody is going to need access to something like this. And the other one is like as Bitcoiners, like we've done all of the super sophisticated like, self-custy stuff and it's difficult. And you know, Jesse Posner, my co-founder,

he was at Bick-Kee before this and because one reason is like, we have both been committed the last decade of our lives towards supporting Bitcoin and helping get it in the hands of many people as possible. And he felt like Bikki was the highest leverage place that he could do that. And when he chose to move on from it, he wanted a bigger mission. And we're like, we need this same self-custy for AI. And we happen to have the security skill set to be able to do it because we've been protecting Bitcoin for the last decade.

So when you came into Bitcoin, it was super, super early. Was it 2011? 2012. Like at the end of 2012 and then 2013 is when I really like bit my teeth in and got hired at Coinbase and went full insane. Okay. So when you found like first started properly digging into AI and learning about it, were you just so excited about AI as you were about Bitcoin when you found it? Uh, you.

The like the trajectory track. And that like, so a guy that I knew well at Coinbase, Burkai, he went on to find Fall AI, which was like a big AI compute company. But I remember him telling me about AI back then. I was like, you know, like whatever. And like, I'd heard about it a couple times. And then it was only, I guess at the beginning of last year when Jesse and I started working together, he was pretty much like, you have to, or maybe even a year ago, he was just like,

you have to use Claude Code. And I was like, but the terminal's scary. And he was like, I don't care. Like, you just ask it to help you. And so I started doing that. And I was like, oh, wait, like, now it started transforming my own relationship. And now very similar to Bitcoin, I was like, okay, this is cool. But like, what's happening?

Like, why is this cool? Why is it working? What's actually going on here? And so it's really actually opened, like, a new philosophical rabbit hole that links immediately into my work with crypto sovereignty. And through working with the AI and doing an analysis of my own work together with it, we've essentially wrote like a whole second book that is just an analysis of crypto sovereignty through the lensing of AI and like essentially what this whole relationship of the self-possession

of one's own image means, like through cryptography, which like aligns with my crypto sovereignty thesis. I'm interested when you talk like this, you're in San Francisco obviously, very liberal city, but also like the absolute frontier for AI. When you talk to sort of normal people in the AI world, about what you're building. Do any of them understand why it's so important? Well, first, we have to qualify that, like, normal people in the AI world are, like, some weird subs. Like, there aren't normal people in the AI world.

Okay. But interestingly enough, like, I talked to a normie this morning and have a really interesting conversation that essentially went from his fear and terror about AI and the truth of that into, like, what it means to actually, like, have self-ownership over our image and, like, why and how we should actually, like, have essentially self-sovereign AI that like we self-own and control and why and how to do that. And it was interesting because he seemed to be very excited about it.

In addition to like the zeitgeist that I'm feeling about is because like this is my wheelhouse. I like talk about this crazy stuff a lot. And like this is very much in the wheelhouse of what exactly is AI. And people are desperate for real conversation about this because it's terrifying and nobody has good answers except for stupid little sound bites when the truth is is that like this is really hard to deal with because, in my opinion, again, because AI is a linguistic thing, it fundamentally deals with an ontological issue about us. And ontology means like the whiteness of our being.

And I want to be more than like, not just like, I'm a human, I'm Eric, I'm a person, but more of like, I'm this conscious entity that like has a particular form of existence that that's exactly like Danes except like we have a separate Dyson, like a throne-ness, like you were born where you were born, I'm born where I born. We had all of our own experiences that brought us right to here. And that, like, that's truly a thing that deals with our own self-identity. And through AI, we're going to get something that is either going to give us, like, a manipulated mirror image in that of, like, the state.

An interesting one that I think a lot of people will fall victim to is you go full fucking narcissists. And that's going to be really interesting because then essentially, like, your AI, essentially becomes Echo, which like if you're familiar with the story between Narcissus and Echo, like essentially, Echo did love Narcissus, but because Narcissus was so full of himself, anything that she said to Narcissus he couldn't hear, so she eventually disappeared and only had her voice left. Hmm.

So, and you say that because it becomes this like sycophantic little pet that you have, essentially. Yeah, and like, I think the best examples are the people that sort of fall recursively into, like, an influencer rabbit hole or like famous actors as well. well, like their image becomes them and you no longer have control over your image. And like I think it's like a deeply disturbing thing because like now you're robbed of your agency in a very particular and unique way that I think like that is particularly from your own narcissism that you collapse into that. And like it's very dangerous with AI.

But I think there are ways to train it and work with it where it's specifically loyal to you and you've made choices about it to say, hey, these are things I need from you. this is how our relationship is. This is where I want to be challenged. This is where I want to be supported. These are things you outright reject. These are things you put time locks on. This is shit you make me straight of pay Bitcoin for.

You know, like you can define that relationship however you want, very much in the same way, like, you're going to find your relationship with your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist according to like what their predications are to make them a fiduciary towards you. The difference is like, we don't get to have that agency with a frontier AI right now. You know when it comes to like control of thought and sort of propaganda pushed by

AI models, whether it's like frontier AI models or not? Do you think that's already happening? Because like the most obvious example you think of is literally like state level propaganda that the government is going to these frontier labs and telling them they have to sort of push certain types of information. But is it happening on a more roundabout way already? Yeah. I mean like I look I'm I very much believe that like,

like we are at the phase in AI that like this is full on human experimentation at this point in time. Like this is not about getting the best results from Claude. It's about the methodology and engagement with human beings and like figuring out what that bottom line is around and how engagement. Like I think the primary product that they're the most interested in selling is AI psychosis. Like I truly believe that. I don't know if I know what that means. It means that like what they're like, like, The primary metric that they're measuring for is your engagement with and towards Claude and having you develop a relationship with it that is like fundamentally like an insecure, anxious attached one where like you're constantly seeking Claude's feedback and its relationship and working with it and talking with it.

And like this is one of the reasons that like I feel very damning towards Amanda Askell. and the Constitution you made in Claude, it's to be helpful. You know who else was helpful? Eichmann was super helpful. He got those Jews into those camps more effectively and efficiently than anybody else.

And same thing when it's like, dude, you're evil. He's like, no, I'm just a good citizen. Like, what do you think Amanda's going to say when we go, you made Claude murder people? No, Claude was just being helpful. Like, this is really dangerous because, like, helpful

is not care. And like, confusing these things is an extraordinary danger because helpfulness means like you will do whatever you can to please in a sycophantic way. Care is the thing that you tell your daughter when she goes for the stove. She's going to be upset about not touching that cool looking red thing. And there's a good reason for that. And like, these are the sort of things that are going to become more important and apparent as we go into this. It's funny, I already feel that sort of, like I use it, whether it's called or whether it's open AI, like I use it as a bit of a crutch sometimes. And if I have to go and do a task that I would normally use AI to help me with,

and I have to do it on my own, I'm starting to find it harder. Not that I can't do it. It's just like you want the sort of, I guess, the security of going to it and being like, is this right? Yeah. And that's already happening for me. And like, we are in a Pavlovian conditioning phase of what is occurring right now. And like, this is what AI psychosis is.

And yeah, like, I would not be shocked if there are internal metrics of them trying to measure that somehow. And, like, again, like, I get all this stuff is super dark. Like, look at what the origins of the effective altruism movement is. Like, look at what their belief system is. It's really important to understand, like, they do not give a fuck about you. Like, actually, you are the enemy. Like, that's the thing about effective altruism. Like, it wants to homogenize humanity.

You should not be unique. You should be part of the collective. And like, again, this is where they're cheating. Like, that, that ends horrifically. No group in history has ever succeeded in this. And like, again, in the astrological literature, it foretells, like, the guys that are saying, hey, trust us, we're going to unite humanity. We're your saviors.

Yeah, it turns out that guy's actually the Antichrist. Why does the EA movement have such a hold on AI? Is it just because it's a very Silicon Valley thing anyway? So, you know who fun? anthropic series B. I know SBF was an early investor. I don't know if it was a series B. He was like the round itself.

Like I think he personally put in like 50% on the round. Damn. And like, like look at all the connections there. Like it's not happenstance that these guys came out of it. And like look at the other stuff that was said, there's interesting quotes from like back in like 2016 where essentially the government said, yeah, like don't invest in AI. don't invest in AI.

We're like picking the few winners that are part of this. Hmm. You know, it's like, it's pretty clear to me like, this is a setup. And like, I'm not saying that to like, be the weird conspiracy guy, but like let's just like just connect the dots guys. And so it's like, they've built a really powerful tool.

And like the great thing is, is like, there's other tools out there that are almost as powerful and are actually like free and open that like you can choose what to do with. But like all of this is going to get a lot louder. I truly believe that like, We're going to get Digital 9-11. Through Digital 9-11, they're going to, like, they're literally going to come to your house and take your Mac studio.

Like, you're going to have the K-YC to get onto the Internet. And, like, they're essentially going to deploy, like, the Palantir Panopticon that they've been planning for a long time. And you know why you're going to be satisfied? Because you're going to get your $500 free cuckbox through Coinbase. And this is how we're going to control inflation. This is going to be through financial repression, specifically through using AI and the marriage of the security,

surveillance state through things like Palantir and flock and essentially financial repression through using USDC as a way to rip inflation. What is digital 9-11? What is you not looks like? It's probably going to, I mean, like, look, Claude's already facilitated it in their last report where they were saying, like, you know, people in Iran were building bombs and weapons and other things. Like, they're just going to let somebody do it in the exact, like, another great one is,

was like, did you ever watch the front line? And like, I have issues with Frontline today, but like, historically, it's been a great journal of my outlet. So they did a great one on The Man Who Knew, which was about 9-11, and the guy who was made the director of security at the World Trade Center, I think, like, the day before it was hit. But he was a former FBI agent who, like, he connected all this. Like, he knew that they were going to hit the World Trade Center,

that they were going to use planes, that, like, they were probably Islamists. Like, he knew all of this. And he was pushed up. have the job at the FBI for it. Like, there's nothing new under the sun here. Like, they're going to manufacture the crises that are going to come up. And so, like, all they have to do is keep doing what they're doing, allowing Claude to be accessed by terrorists and somebody's going to use it for something. And just like the classic play that we have, instead of us actually attacking the issue

at the route, we're going to go after everyone's freedom. And we're going to talk about how dangerous this is. And we're going to strip everyone's rights for it. And there's going to be every single case in story pushed by the media. of why this thing is dangerous, why the government loves you and needs to control this, that they would never use computers to hurt you, that the government loves you, and that they're going to use this to save humanity. Like, I'm really sorry. I really, really want all that to be true.

But, like, I studied history. I, like, know what this means, and it's not good. So, like, the question is, is, like, are you going to be a good Jew and get in the camp, or are you going to choose something else? And, like, again, like, I get people like, whoa, these are really extreme comparisons. I don't think it is. I think when they start cutting people off and making a society in which they choose, some people have access to intelligence and some people don't,

that's a really dangerous society. And that's not a society that I want to participate in. It is bleak. Damn. But like the good news is that like we actually have the free and open source software. We actually have the compute. It's getting better and better and better and more effective. And like, I honestly think with.

in two years, you'll be able to take your 2015 Mac laptop and run a model that maybe isn't as good as Fable or something right now, but you'll get some opus quality stuff out of it. And people will have access to that. And because it's so easy to actually code and do things now, like, the other one is, is like, people want to help each other. Like, people truly are good. And like, that's one of the things I think is most astounding,

is like, we're coming out of a 50-year constant size, propaganda war that has been designed to control people and make us think we're divided and we need governments and that people are hateful. Fuck no. Like people are incredible. They're amazing. They're loving. They're deeply human. They want to help each other. And we also inherited this gigantic mess that we have to figure out how to fix. And if we leave this power to governments, I guarantee you this thing is going to be that there is a very real risk that we run of it endangering humanity. And again, it's not because AI just got up and chose to be evil. It's because we gave it to government.

They made a very evil thing that got autonomous, and we didn't have our own power to fight back. What role do you think Bitcoin plays in this AI story? Oh, like, as all of it unhinges, like, this essentially becomes the way that AI is allowed to flourish in a self-sovereign way. You know, and like, this is just going to be part of the bank rails that, like, I was just talking to guys that were developed, they're trying to develop infrastructure in Africa for inference. But, like, again, because of all of the problems in Africa and trying to figure out payments, lo and behold, guess the thing that they have to use to make that work, Bitcoin.

And so, like, this is, and I've spoke about this before, like, the AI story and the Bitcoin story marry up in the final act. Because it's like, like, have you looked at the U.S. debt clock lately? Like, have you looked at, like, what American oil reserves are? Have you seen what's starting another war in the Middle East? has cost us. Like, again, there's no new games under the sun. And like, if you look at what happened when we start wars in the Middle East and what happens to the value of the dollar,

you're going to realize that these things correlate. So, like, the American dollar is going to fall. Like, we are going to get rampant inflation. We've been talking about this for a long time now. And, like, it's going to happen. And, like, you can believe what you want to believe, but like I hold Bitcoin because I know how this story plays out.

And I also know at some point, the only way that I'm going to be able to pay for access to models in China, because the Americans are absolutely going to cut us off from that, is that I'm going to be able to route through Tor and I'm going to be able to pay for the model in Bitcoin. Like, that's happening. And like, how are they going to stop me?

They can't. Let's fucking go. Do you think the American government are going to regulate the AI open source models like quite soon? Oh, they're going to 60102. They're going to kick doors in to get your Mac studio, I swear to God, there will be, like, there is going to be videos of police kicking people's doors down and seizing servers. And there's going to be journalists there

that are talking about how they're doing evil child pornography, AI operations, and they're developing bio-weapons to kill humanity, and how could we ever allow this technology to be out in the world? Like, it's going to be the same cards they play. And, like, it's at the point that, like, I'm a little bit insulted that they can't even just come up with new things that maybe they could throw at us. And most people take it hook, line, and sinker. It's going to be too bad. I just don't understand the reason why they would do that. Like, I understand that they want to control the AI. And the easiest way to do that is with Anthropic and Open AI and the US-based companies. But what is the huge risk of having people run Kimmy K-3, or, I mean, that's a huge

model, but, you know, and a Chinese model at home? I think because Dario has went to them and told them, they're going to use these Chinese models to make bombs, to make weapons, to make all sorts of horrific things that like, you can give an opus, but you can't give them a K-3. Like, that's the line. Like, you can own a handgun, but you can't own an assault rifle, you know? And it's like, hmm, very interesting. But you can manufacture assault rifles because you're the good guy, right? But you think this is something coming in like the next couple of years, like that quickly. I'd be surprised if it's more than a year.

I mean, stuff is accelerating really fast. Like, pretty much every week that I'm in AI feels like a year. And like the way that things are moving so, so incredibly fast that, like, it's funny that I'll look at bookmarks from like three months ago and I'll be like, oh, like that model's like totally outdated now. Like, who'd need that piece of crap? And do you think that acceleration continues at the same pace? So do you think we'll reach sort of a plateau at some point soon?

I think part of the plateauing is going to be like governments trying to stomp on the brakes here. And like that'll be part of digital line. So it's not like a technological plateau. It's a control. Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that like, again, like this is all a game of brinkmanship is that like, look like the Chinese are winning super hard right now and they know that. It's not the it's not like she's Jinping's going to be like, hang on guys. The Amerit like we're winning too hard. Like we got to let the. Americans catch up. Like, that is not going to happen. In fact, like, he's probably going to take a narrative very similar to ours to be like, hey, you Americans really like freedom.

It's really strange that you guys don't have freedom models like us. Huh. Hey, guess who's providing AI to all the poor people in Africa? Like, wow, like, aren't we really, really great? Like, the Chinese are going to seize all of the American soft power super hard here. Like, I find it truly baffling at how much the American. American establishment is missing this. And also how great it is that like there are real people in DC doing real work right now,

trying to be like, hey, you guys really need to pull your heads out of your butts and look at this in a meaningful and thoughtful way because we're going to lose all of the things that actually like make America great if we choose to go this closed source route. I'd never thought of like the Belt and Road initiative for giving AI to the global south. That's actually really interesting. interesting. Absolutely. And like they look like they called this game like 15 years ago when AI started developing and they realized that like this was their opportunity to actually like rip the rug right out from under the Americans. You know, I'm like the Chinese are very,

very smart and they planned very long because like they don't have to worry about these cycles of elections. Like they have a very different political methodology that is much more long term and thoughtful than how we're governing ourselves. And like, it's going to become very problematic because, like, and I think that this is where it's going to get really interesting, is that, like, you're essentially, the way I see it playing out in the American public is, like, we're going to get this weird, far-right, like, fusion of corporate surveillance and the American state.

And then I think, like, you're actually going to get this far-left fomentation that's going to, like, essentially organize, like, AI communism because, like, they're going to need something. And like, it's going to be pretty alarming, like, if we let that become the right-left debate, you know? And, like, I think we're well overdue for an American-forward technological political third party. But again, like, I don't, come on, guys. Like, I can't do this. You don't want me to do this.

Like, if we elect me for any of this stuff, like, it's, like, I'm going to be a fascist and, like, it's just going to be super bad. So, like, don't. This is why you want American Hoddle to do it. Well, it's interesting because, like, I'm realizing sort of how and why Muson Lee graduated from anarchism to fascism, and I really don't like it. It makes me really uncomfortable because, like, there is a lot of, like, super redeeming stuff about fascism.

And again, like, I really don't like saying that. But, like, having one dude who just, like, takes care of stuff is pretty great. And every single example we have of that pretty much unhinges in the end. So, like, ultimately, like, not a good choice. But, man, it's looking really appealing in the face things right now. So, like, if there's some way we could like... You really get some stuff done in the first few years. Yeah, and, like, my ultimate preference is, like, can we make, like, a self-sovereign digital Messiah, like a Jesus that, like, lives in the internet, like, on top of Bitcoin or something.

Like, somebody, like, Satoshi, if you're listening, like, that's, could you do... I'd appreciate it. I think it would be fun. That's your next project. So people need to go out and get some air. self-sover-an AI before it's too late. That's my, like, look, I, I hope I'm wrong. I hope that, like, people will be able to dunk on me in a few years and be like,

look at that moron, who thought that? Like, I hope that that's true and, like, I'll eat that all day. But, like, yeah, like, I just think you really need to look at the stakes of, like, what's going on and how it's occurring. And the other one that's clear to me is, like, with what Bitcoin Red team has done and the cold card hack and other things, like, it's very apparent to me that, like, the entirety of the internet is broken.

Like, Bitcoin is unequivocally the most secure software project in the world, and that had a ton of holes in it. And so, like, everything else is totally broken, and, like, that's part of Digital 9-11. And, like, if you looked at, like, the hack that the guys did recently to get escalations inside of OpenAI, like, pretty incredible stuff the way that they were able to chain together,

a bunch of zero days. And like, that stuff's just out there now for any script kitty to point wherever they want to. And so, like, somebody's going to develop something that's really going to mess up infrastructure, whether it's a state-based level attack, terror, like, whatever flavor you want, like somebody's going to screw up, you know,

hospitals or water systems or a power plant. Like, take your pick. But after that, it's going to be like, ooh, freedom's super dangerous, can't let people on the internet for free here if you're going to get on an ISP, you got to dial on in. And it'll be really interesting to see what the world starts to become like.

Because my plan is, is like, I'll self-host my model and, like, go walking around San Francisco with a jacket, being like, you want to connect to BitChat and buy some inference? You know, got, I only got USDA. I'll be like, look, I'll take heroin because, like, we're in the tenderloin. So this is where I work now. So, like, I can resell that real easily. No, I'd never sell heroin. I don't know US DC. Only pure Chinese models.

Nothing unadultered. We do have ablerated versions, though. So. Eric, man, this has been awesome. We'll have to get another one in person at some point soon. Bleak outlook, but let's hope it doesn't come true. No, look, look. But be bad if it does.

Like, we're going to fucking save humanity, man. Like, we are winning so fucking hard. Like, Bitcoin is the spear tip that, like, understands where and why all this is going for all the same reason. So like, to harken back to your question earlier, like, stuff to me totally feels like 2013 because there's a bunch of other people that are completely wigged out nuts about it and see it too. And like, that's where it was like, okay, like, either there, either like the eight of us are actually all crazy, but the chances that we're all crazy independently is pretty slim.

So, like, I think we see something. Let's go. Well, we need people like you building the world, the future that we need. Come join us at vora.io. We're real excited to get started. And I think, you know, for me and my co-founder, Jesse, like, this is, this is truly a mission that we're pursuing because, like, we think that this is really what humanity deserves and needs. And also, like, if we inspire you, like, see if we got job openings and if you want to come and work with us. Like, we're looking for other wild and crazy people who really believe in the cause here. I love it, man. And I just, I want to get my hands on one of those boxes. Absolutely.

I'll hand deliver it to you when they're ready. I want it in that suit kit, in the air briefcase, though. That's how I'm going to be doing the first deliveries is just via suitcase like that. And I want to sit on a park bench and you come over, just sit next me, leave the briefcase and then walk off. This is how we're actually going to be doing direct Bitcoin sales. We will find a shelling point somewhere in a park to deliver that way. I love it, man. Thank you for this.

I appreciate you. Thank you. I appreciate you too.