WHOA That's Good Podcast - Are You in Denial About the Red Flags in Your Relationship? | Sadie Robertson Huff & Lysa TerKeurst

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Is God OK with healthy boundaries? Bestselling author and founder of Proverbs 31 Ministries Lysa TerKeurst shares what she discovered after in-depth study of goodbyes and boundaries. Sadie and Lysa discuss why the motivation BEHIND our boundaries is important and how you can tell the difference between a mistake and a pattern. Sadie shares personal stories of her past relationship red flags. Lysa gets intensely personal and honest about her current circumstance. Even though she never thought she'd be in this place, she knows God is good, God is good to us, and He is good at being God. This mindset helps her — and it can help you! — snap into focus what is true, despite how tough our realities are at any given time. Plus, what is the first step of seeking help when you understand and realize you're in a bad relationship? And encouragement to not confuse "difficult" with "destructive" in ANY of your relationships.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What's up friends? Happy Wednesday everybody. Welcome back to the World That's Good Podcast. Y'all, I am so excited for today because we have a treat. We have someone who I know most of you know. If you do not know her yet, get ready because for the next year, you could dive into all the resources that she has. But we're specifically going to be talking about her

newest book, Good Boundaries and Good Bies. We have Lisa Turgers on the podcast today. And Lisa, I am so thankful that you're taking the time to be on the Will Let's Go podcast again. Well, thank you, Say Thee. It's always a joy to be with you and I'm just honored to get to have the few minutes just to talk about a subject I'm really passionate about. Yes, gosh, it's a gift and I always say this, well, don't always say this because I really say this when I mean it. Whenever I get to prepare for these podcasts, you know, it's always so encouraging to

me and I really get to gain a lot of advice, but specifically for you. The last time you were on the podcast, preparing for your podcast, I learned so much in the process of the preparation. And then today, I got to dive in and I was supposed to have something else and a text saying, I said, you gotta cancel that. I'm too into this right now. I was reading the book and watching interviews for me and just learning so much. And so what a gift it is for me to get to learn from you. And now for everybody on this podcast, I just want to say to everyone listening, I hope you're in a place where you can really listen because I know you're going to learn something today about boundaries

and you have so much to talk about before we get into that, give us a little brief picture into what led you into writing this book. So people have an understanding of where you've been. Well, I think anytime there's chaos in a relationship, it's usually because of a lack of a boundary chaos in a relationship. It's usually because of a lack of a boundary. And I had just been experiencing an usual amounts of chaos in a couple of different relationships and my life relationships that were really important, but specifically in one of my most important relationships. And I kept feeling so powerless because I couldn't get the other person to cooperate with changes that are really felt remitted. And you know, Sadie, I hit that point where I started saying, I just can't take this anymore. Like something has to change. The problem is if you are the only person willing to change

in the other person is not, you can start to feel really stuck. And like this relationship is just becoming more and more impossible, possibly even unsustainable. And when that happens, I think we're tempted to jump to extremes. It's like we take it and take it and take it until all of a sudden one day, we can no longer take it. And we don't want to live in extremes with our relationships. So boundaries help bring us back to the middle and give us something to do if the other person isn't cooperating with the changes we need. We're necessary. Wow.

Okay. So already this is so good. And I'm like, I'm a podcast listener where I listen to people's podcasts and I have to stop and rewind the 30 seconds and 30 seconds to listen to that again. And some of you guys might want to do that because it just set the tone so well. And I love how you said, you know, where there is chaos, there is normally like a boundary. So that's a good thing to look for in your relationships.

Just a generic question. Do you think that every relationship needs boundaries, or boundaries particularly for relationships that are chaotic? Well, you know, I do believe ever relationships, it needs boundaries, but they need healthy boundaries, you know, and it's good to define like, this is you and this is them. It's not good when the two people just become so enmeshed that you can't see where the separation is. And obviously in a marriage, God says the two have become one, but also there are still two individuals there,

too. So the marriage makes us one, but inside the marriage, there are still two individuals. And Citi, I learned a lot by asking this question, is God okay with boundaries? Because I think what tripped me up for so long is I didn't have the spiritual or biblical confidence or the emotional fortitude to know that it really is not only good for a Christian woman to have boundaries, but it's healthy for her to have boundaries.

And what started as a big question is God okay with boundaries, led me into the Bible where right from Genesis 1, I see that God established the foundation of the world using separations, which are boundaries. He separated the light from the dark, he separated the land from the sea. And so already we're seeing that boundaries

are not just a good idea, they're actually God's idea. And then of course we get into Genesis 2 and of all the topics God could have chosen for the first recorded conversation between God and man with Adam. God chose the topic of a boundary. And he said, you are free. So he set this boundary conversation in the context of freedom. And this is important when you ask me the question, you know, do all relationships need boundaries? Yes. Because it's for the sake of establishing where the freedom is. If we establish the boundaries, then you know that you can be free inside the relationship. Do

this, but but don't take it this far. And so, yes, I think it's all healthy relationships have boundaries. Good. Well, I'm definitely learning a lot about boundaries and just the purpose behind boundaries with having a daughter, you know, setting boundaries on, hey, you can't do that because that will get you in trouble because that has consequences because that will get you in trouble because that has a consequences

because that will hurt you. And you really see God's heart in the boundaries he has for us as you become a parent and set boundaries for your kids to not get hurt. And I've heard you say before that like love has to be the motive behind the boundaries. And I thought that was really good. Can you break down like some other examples of reasons why I guess motives behind boundaries that aren't healthy other than love and what that can look like because I love how you can, you kind of specify this is setting boundaries in an unhealthy way to even set boundaries, but when they're,

the motive is love, it's a really beautiful thing. It is. When the motivation is love, really what boundaries are, boundaries are great communication opportunities, you know, so that you can communicate within a relationship. This is what I have to give and this is what I don't have to give. And This is what is acceptable. This is not acceptable. It's not because you're being selfish. Certainly, if being selfish is the motivation, then that's not a healthy boundary. All humans have limitations. Because we have limitations, we have a certain amount of capacity in different areas of

our life. We have a physical capacity. We have a financial capacity. We have a physical capacity, we have a financial capacity, we have a relational capacity, emotional. So, and we have limitations within our capacities, not because we're selfish, but because we're human. Only God has an unlimited supply of all areas of capacity. So, really, communication should be the motivation

behind the boundaries, but also protection. In some situations, we draw healthy boundaries, not because we're just trying to communicate a need, but also because the situation has gotten to the place where now it's a safety issue. So boundaries allow for some protection. But I would say unhealthy boundaries, instead of motivating, being motivated by love, which is seeking each other's highest good, I would say the motivation can sometimes be punishment. You know, if your boundaries motivated by trying to punish the other person or teach them a lesson or to manipulate them or control them, that is not a correct motivation for boundary.

That will lead to unhealthy boundaries, which then will lead to even more unhealthy dynamics within the relationship. Well, that's so good. That's because that happens a lot. I mean, I can think of past relationships, even dating relationships that I was in, that when I look back and I look at the way I even did things, I was thinking I was trying to like stand up for myself, but even in the way that I was doing it, it was not leading us to any type of good or healthy thing. And so I think that's a really good thing to establish like what is

my motivation behind this. And again, like looking at all of the boundaries that God set for us, they really are out of love. One of my my favorite verses is in Jeremiah, and I have a wave tattoo because of this verse, but it talks about how, and this is very much paraphrasing, but though, Lord's basically saying, do not know that I'm the Lord, do not know that I put a boundary line in the sand so that the waves could not pass over it. And I always thought that was just such a powerful visual that gosh, when you look at the waves and they they seem chaotic at times, they can seem crazy, especially in a storm, but then you look at the sand and it's like, man, that is a boundary line set by God that no matter how crazy the waves get it will not pass over this banjil that he

set before us and always just felt really loved by that. And then when I go and stand by this like on the sand and I look at the ocean, when you stop to think about that for a second, this is a massive body of water. And you can start to feel really, really small and it's really humbling because you know that could overtake you in a second but to know that God set this as a boundary and you can sit there and enjoy a peaceful moment by a massive magnificent ocean I mean you feel so protected by the creator and when you think about that in your relationships, you know, things can feel crazy and chaotic and all these things, but the set of good boundary is to bring peace into a

chaotic moment, to a chaotic, maybe a lifestyle at one time. Now we're shifting gears. We're walking towards healthier steps. So I just think that is a great thing to identify one thing that you say, and I think that this is important, and I think that this is something that probably needs to be said, as you talk about how there's a difference between making a mistake and a pattern of something, because everybody's going to make mistakes. So when do you feel like you can start to notice, this isn't just a one-time thing, this is something that I actually need to make mistakes. So when do you feel like you can start to notice this isn't just a one-time thing. This is something that I actually need to deal with. Well, I think you can start to sense the level of chaos in the relationship because you know when it's a mistake that can be an addressed

situation. So you can come together, you can have a conversation about it. You can find some reasonable solutions so that the mistake doesn't keep happening. You can make reasonable requests and you can also, even if a boundary is needed, which basically means we're gonna communicate about what is it is not acceptable here, then you know that you're making progress when you're able to have a healthy productive conversation

around that. And it may not be that everything turns out exactly the way you want it, but at least you're moving the relationship forward. That's a mistake. And everybody makes mistakes, everybody needs grace, right? But when this is a pattern of behavior, that really means that the other person starts to demonstrate that they are unwilling or incapable of making healthy changes that are needed and necessary to keep the relationship safe, sustainable, and to help keep both parties within the relationship

safe. Because we can really start to feel like you're going crazy when a relationship starts to become filled with so much turmoil that there's just dysfunction in the relationship. Yeah. So when it's a pattern of behavior you'll start to see that maybe the other person is unwilling to be repented for that mistake is unwilling to get maybe some necessary health that they need for that mistake, maybe is unwilling to even talk to you about what's going on or accusing you that you're the crazy one and that it's just not happening what you sense is

happening. So a pattern is something that you really have to pay attention to. And you know, say, I lived in denial of this for a long time and a really important relationship in my life. I have told my friends, sometimes I need help calling a red flag red because my personality is such that I desire peace so much that sometimes a flag has to be burning to the ground before I actually tilt my head and go, huh, that's a little red, isn't it? Wow. And then the other mistake that I make when a pattern exists is I keep thinking, well, if I just hold on a little bit longer,

the pattern is gonna fix itself. Wow. If I just say four more prayers, or I just go and read one more book, or if I go to one more conference. And the thing is, we can do all of that. But in the context of a relationship, both people have to agree to work on what they're contributing to the dysfunction in the relationship.

But if you're the only one working, then a mistake that I've made with boundaries is then I try to put a boundary on the other person Because I see things like I recognize the patterns of dysfunction that need to be addressed But that was a wrong tactic to try to put a boundary on another person Because if they're unwilling or incapable of changing you will only create temporary change Using external pressure of a boundary to try to make the other person wake up or to make the other person acknowledge they need help or to make the other person make changes because ultimately we can't control or change another person.

It's kind of like if we were together, Sadie, and one of us had a cardiac event, we would obviously jump in and do CPR to create some life there, you know, to sustain life for a little season. But using that external pressure, it is a temporary solution. If that person's heart does not quicken and beat on its own, you can't sustain life using that external pressure. Never have you seen two friends walking around them all, one doing CPR on the other, and they, wow, you know, that's a sustainable relationship. And the same is true with boundaries. So we don't want to put a boundary on another person to try to force them to change. What we have to recognize is we need to draw boundaries around ourselves, and we need to make adjustments for ourselves so that we can stay safe, sane, and

sustainable within that relationship. Wow, that's so good. Gosh, that's so helpful. I just can't help but think there's a lot of people listening to this right now and their ears are like, wait a second, this is my story, and maybe they've never even realized. Like you said, sometimes it's hard to tell that the flag is red because you're in denial. You're trying to make something work and I mentioned I was in a relationship for a long time. That was just really unhealthy and I would do the same thing and I remember one of the patterns that I saw in that relationship is every time I would be upset and come to this person

and share why I was upset or whatever. It would always in somehow with me being the problem and then feeling crazy and me apologizing and it was like wait what I like I'd think about it later like I came to them and now how did it out? And is it always always always turn on me and then I'm so confused and there's so much craziness and I think for a long time I just thought that's just how relationships were like they were just hard and they were just took a lot of work. And it's true.

Relationships are hard and can take work. But there's a difference in it being a dysfunctional relationship. And when that I think in marriage, it's different at times because yes, those are the ones that you put in the work to until you can't or as long as you can, but when you're dating, I think it's so important to see those patterns and those red flags and to notice, I don't have to commit to this forever. This is not healthy. This is something that I need to walk away from. I love that you brought up the verse in your book, which has gotten me a lot of times as well, where it says, if at all possible,

make, bring peace, and the situations around you, and again, I'm watching the exactly what it says, but that, if at all possible, I'm gonna bring peace. And I stayed in a couple of different relationships, not even just with guys, I'm talking about friendships, too, mentorships, where I'd be like, if it all possible, I can do more, I can push more, I can stay longer, I can have another conversation, like you said, read another book, whatever it is, and like, I can make this work. But I love how you said you had this epiphany of the

if at all possible. Talk to me about that epiphany you had, because I think this is really huge. Talk to me about that epiphany you had because I think this is really huge Yeah, because sometimes it's not possible and then we can only work as far as it belongs to us like as far as it depends on us so we can do our part but we cannot do our part in their part. Yeah And so you know, I would imagine if I was listening to the podcast right now, I would go, okay, I hear you, how in the world do I not put boundaries on other people, but I put boundaries on myself? And how is that actually going to help the relationship? Well, let me give you a really important epiphany that I had one day when I was studying scripture. And I was asking the question again, you know, is God okay with boundaries?

And so I've gotten through Genesis one and two and I felt like, yeah, I'm getting some traction here. I do believe that boundaries are not just a good idea. They're actually God's idea. But when I got to the point in the Bible where God is establishing the temple, I was absolutely blown away by the revelation of two crucial words, access and responsibility. You see, when God established a temple, He gave certain people access, but not all people all access. And it wasn't because this group of people was more valuable than this group of people. It's

that the more access God granted to someone, the more responsibility they were required. Well, all the way to the high priest, the high priest was required to demonstrate the highest level of responsibility and he was given the high access of once a year being able to go into the Holy of Holies to make a ton for the people. But if he was not responsible,

if he was not absolutely purified and absolutely cleansed, then the consequence for that kind of access would be that he would drop dead because of his impurities. And so it started, it started to be thinking, wow, I think one of my issues is that I have granted too much access to certain people to areas of my limited capacity. Like if I'm granting someone great access to my financial capacity, but they are not being responsible

with the kind of access that I've granted them, then I run the risk of going bankrupt, right? And so here's the mistake I used to make. Okay, let's say I'm giving level 10 access to someone and they're only bringing level three responsibility. I used to try to put a boundary on them to get them to raise their responsibility level up to match level 10 access. But we can't ultimately control another person. If this person is unwilling or incapable of demonstrating anything more than level 3 responsibility, then I must

draw a boundary around myself and reduce the access I grant them down to level three. Because of that, I can be in charge of me. And God never calls us in the Bible to control other people, but God absolutely says, this spirit in us is to be self controlled. Reducing access is an example of being self controlled. Well, that is so good. I love that right there that he doesn't ever call you to control other people, but he does call you to self control.

That is really powerful. My mom used to always tell me like in high school, whenever, you know, it would just be drama stuff and she would just always say, say, you can only control you. And that's so true that the spirit of God is given. There's a fruit of the spirit that is self control. And so I love that you have some statements in the book, um, the We Can statement.

And I love how they're all followed up with scripture and through his word, talk to me a little bit about those, we can statements because I think it's really powerful to apply to our life along with scripture. Well, I think when you're in a really difficult relationship, we start focusing on all the things that are not possible because the other person is not cooperating. But with God, all things are possible.

And so we may not be able to make all things possible with this person, but we can step in and remind ourselves like we can demonstrate self-control because God's spirit is within us. You know, one activity that I did that was very, very helpful and it seemed so basic and I don't know why it took me over 50 years, say, the I'm old, okay?

It took me over 50 years to come to this realization. But one day I decided, okay, I want to list out a description of Lisa, myself, the best of me. Like, when I'm operating as the best of me, what qualities are there? Because God's spirit is inside of me. Like when I'm operating as the best of me, what qualities are there? Because God's spirit is inside of me, obviously, I have the fruit of the spirit, but when I'm operating at my best, God has created me uniquely. And so what does that look like? Well, I listed, I'm generous, I'm kind, I'm peaceful, I'm patient, I'm trusting, you know, all those things are very present when I'm at my best.

When I'm at my worst, the list looks very different. I start to become impatient, skeptical, not trusting, a whole lot less generous, maybe even stingy, and I start to withdraw rather than press in. And so then I ask myself the question, which version of Lisa do I want to stay front and center in my relationships? Well, obviously, I want the best version of me to stay front and center.

And because I want that, it is my job to remain self-controlled enough so that the best version of me can be front and center. When I am frazzled, fractured, pushed to my limit, pushed over my capacity, operating at a zero, the worst of me comes out. It is my responsibility to control that. Within the context of a relationship, I need to remember only I can control my actions. No one else is going to step in and do that for me, but using the power of spirit in me

and me using wisdom for myself, I want to love others well without losing the best of who I am. Therefore, boundaries are going to be necessary, not only necessary, but healthy. That is so good. Oh my gosh, I love that. Just for people listening, I love whenever we don't just listen to a podcast or we apply it to our life. And you know, this whole podcast is based off of good advice

and that is a really good advice that she just gave to everyone to go and do that. Go take the time. If you're 25, 16, 32, however old you are, go do it because I think that that is a great thing to identify. I'm going to go do that when I get home. Think about what is the healthy version of me, the I brain relationship, what is unhealthy? Because I think even then you can see it for what it is.

You can line it up and look at your life and say, am I giving more of this or more of that? Normally, it's obvious, but sometimes it takes you calling yourself out. I think that there are certain things in our life and you just said it that only you have the power to change, to control and the Holy Spirit in you is going to convey to you. He's your accountability in that, but it's your job to listen and to be willing to change and to be willing to put in the work. And that's one of those things. And so that's so good. I also just have to say, you don't look old and you and my mom, I think y'all's next boat needs to be how

to look young and say young because y'all are both crushing it. I was saying to you, I know you saw the video when your mom and I we took a trip together we were in the Bahamas and we decided to either broke swing and it was just in our mind. It was one of those moments in our mind. We looked so awesome. But when we watched the video back later, it was so terrible. It was so bad. Oh my gosh.

I'm going to have to give my mom to send me that and put it in this byguess for those watching on YouTube Because I I know the feeling of when something looks epic in your mind and I know y'all felt like we are in the Bahamas wrote swinging but it was probably one mile per hour It was hilarious It was absolutely layers, but my point is sometimes we just have to feel young and then we exude a more young feeling around us. So yeah, I love your mom so much. She's the most fun in the world. Yeah, they're awesome. I remember when you'll take that

trip and you've gone on a couple different trips with Shelley Guglio and the other Lisa and I always tell mom, if I could be a fly on the wall at one of your strips. I would just love it. It's just so fun. You know, you really would. You need a wife that daughters one time. The daughters need to be able to join one of these trips. Okay, well in the past we have drawn a boundary that said me time adult time. But you know what, Sadie, I think it is time that we've lessened that boundary and invite the daughters in because it's time that we pass the fun, young torch onto I'm not talking about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it.

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It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. It's not about it. the book that was maybe my favorite my favorite thing that you said because I love whenever you can see Jesus go through something that you go through and you realize how much he can really relate to the feelings that you you felt and this quote came right after you talked about all the good buys that Jesus had to say or people said to him Peter, you know denying Jesus Judas obviously being an epic goodbye and denial and painful thing and you quote you said this I quoted it Even when people turned on Jesus he didn't let a goodby turn him into someone he was never meant to be Thought that was just so good because I was like, wow, he really did experience

that to the fullest of its pain, but it didn't change him. And so when we were talking about goodbyes, I mean, this book is good boundaries and goodbyes, talk a little bit about how you don't let a good buy absolutely take away all the goodness of who you are. Well, I'm so glad you brought this up, Sadie, because I think all the goodness of who you are. Well, I'm so glad you brought this up, Sadie, because I think this is one of the most important lessons that we can take away from this book. I think we have to remember that Jesus was absolute divinity,

but he was also full of humanity at the same time, which means Jesus was sinless, but he was very much sins against. Well, and so when we think about that, Jesus was sinless, but he was very much sinned against. Well. And so when we think about that, we can watch Jesus's life and Jesus drew boundaries and they were for such a good purpose. And we see that Jesus withdrew, sometimes from the crowd, to go to a lonely place, to recharge and to regroup and to pray with his father.

You know, and he had the pressure on him to be the savior of the world. And yet we don't see any indication of Jesus running through life and trying to help all people at all times, you know, we see him walking places, we see him having well sometimes he preached to the crowd, but many times he had conversations with individuals or he sat around the table. And so even though Jesus had the pressure on him to be the savior of the world, he was very much in tune with the limitations of a human body. And I think that that's that people sometimes can weaponize against someone

trying to draw healthy boundaries, it's, well, Jesus laid down his life for his friends. I mean, Jesus modeled it. So, and he called us to lay down our life for our friends. So, how does that jive with a boundary? That just doesn't seem to walk hand in hand with that. And here's what I would say, yes, Jesus laid down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.

Well, well, that's good. Well, that is good. There's a total of big difference in the two of those things. And for those of you who are in situations where maybe that verse has been something that you might have taken as your inspiration to let someone walk all over you or stay in an unhealthy thing. I think that's a really good thing for you guys to hear. And if someone's hearing that and realizing the difference of the two different things, and for so long they convince themselves they're doing this for the right reasons because sometimes we can do that. It's like we have the right intention or motive for it but it's still the

wrong decision. What do you do in that? Do you recommend going to counseling? Do you like what's the first step when you realize you're in a really bad relationship and you need help? Well, one thing that I did throughout the book, Sadie, is I included some checklists just to kind of take an assessment and become in tune with what is the reality that I'm facing here. And, you know, my counselor Jim Cress always says that mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. So if we're going to be committed to healthy relationships and we need to be committed to what is reality.

And a couple of things on the checklist that maybe someone could start to think about is where are you diminishing the best of who you are to cover up for the worst of who someone else is? Where are you telling a version of an experience with this person to your friends that tidies up some of the really hard things that you're going through rather than just stating what's happening? Where are you possibly in your mind trying to paint a picture where you're actually in love with someone's potential, but you refuse to acknowledge that the potential

that they have is not the reality of what you're experiencing with that person. So there's some really good checklists throughout the book that I think will help people take steps, not leaps. And that's the main thing. When we start to feel like this relationship has gone from being difficult to destructive, then a goodbye needs to be considered. And, you know, but, but I'm so careful to say, like, look, we need to fight for our relationships. But we also need to acknowledge reality. And sometimes we do need wise counselors, wise friends, biblical, biblical-minded people around us to help us and take steps not leaps. You know, I am never ever going to advocate like, okay, your marriage is difficult, then

go get it divorced. That is not at all. I am a proponent of marriage. I love the way that God brings to people together in a marriage. And if it were my choice, I would still be married to this day. But here was my reality. I stayed in a marriage for a really long time that I refused to acknowledge had become destructive. And one day I had a counselor set across for me and look at me and said, Lisa,

if you stay in this relationship another year, I do not think you will be alive in a year. Well, and so Sadie, I thought it was really important to acknowledge that sometimes relationships have gotten to such an unbiblical place that they start to become very unsustainable. And again, we need to take steps, not leaps, but here's what's absolutely crucial to remember, that God absolutely loves you. And God has provided a way for sometimes for us to not stay in unsustainable relationships. And you know what? That instruction is all through the Bible. And for some reason, I had just

never been taught that. So it was crucial for me to show people in the Bible where God provides a choice for us in an unsustainable relationship and God teaches us how to say a goodbye. And so I also want people through in the book, one of my favorite sections is called Amelia Little Fienerals. And so, you know, when we start thinking about changes in a relationship, whether it's a goodbye or whether we just need to draw boundaries, it will cost us something and when it costs us something, there will be grief associated with that.

So we have to come in tune with the grief that could possibly be around changes in a relationship. And the last thing I'll say about that is, say, I for so long, I didn't want to be a divorced woman, so, so much so that I kept saying to myself, I refused to walk away, I refused to walk away, I refused to walk away, and there were so really good reasons that I was doing that, but there were also some really unhealthy reasons as well. And one day, I feel like God revealed to me, Lisa,

you're not walking away. You are accepting reality. Hmm. Well, my gosh, that is like so helpful that you just shared so much of that. And I just want to say thank you for sharing some of the like hard realities of that situation because I was just thinking about how in other seasons of my life if I would have been sitting here interviewing you on this podcast I would literally be weeping because you would be exposing my story, you know, and even your checklist I was like, yep, yep, yep, been there, been there, been there and so for people listening, please know, this is something both of us have walked through

in different capacities and different relationships that we've been in destructive relationships. And I love the difference between difficult and destructive. You know, I have not been in a relationship recently or not in a relationship currently that is destructive. There are difficult moments, but not destructive. And I think back to past, and there were so many destructive, and I walked through counseling. And I remember one of the things that I counseled or did with me, and I thought it was so good, is because I would always try to paint the picture to make it seem better than it was when I would tell it all the stories or whatever

and or try to defend them or whatever. And she said, we are going to make a case for you. And this is not for anybody else, it's for you to have. And she was like, I want you to write down the true story and she helped me do it. She wrote it down for me so I couldn't erase her, scratch off or manipulate it. And I just told her the story and she wrote it down for what it was. And she said, now you have it for what it is. Do not go back. Like, remember this is the story

because I would so try to make it better, always better than it was. And so I think just that honesty with yourself and where you're at. And so grateful your counselor is so honest with you, where you were at. And you were able to accept that reality and make the changes you needed to make. Because I mean, I know you have still, I'm sure experience moments of grief, but you just look so full of life. You truly do. And I mean, you're just, you're radiant. And I look back at seasons of me when I was in bad relationships, and I just look so unhealthy, you know, I look so much healthier now, so much more full of life has nothing to do with the size I am or the acne on my serenity. It's just really just a radiance. It's a joy. It's a freedom. And so from a friend

to a friend, you look amazing. And I don't just mean that in a youthful way, like I just said, in a radiant way. And so for those who are listening, who are in a really, really tough spot, man, there is so much hope for you. Do not give up hope for what's to come, even if it means the relationship is ending. Hope for your future and what God has for you. I love this quote. And I think it's really good. It says, maybe it is possible to end a relationship being honest about what wasn't healthy and still celebrating what is good.

For those who are grieving the loss of a relationship, is it possible to do that, to be honest about the reality, but to still celebrate what was good? Say the, I love that. that and you know when I researched where did the word goodbye come from it came from a statement that people used to say a long time ago and it was God be with ye. Wow and then it was shortened to God be W Y and then it was shortened to God, V, W, Y, and then it was shortened to good by. Wow.

And so when I started to realize that the original intent of the word goodbye was God be with ye, I had a marked moment in my closet where it was the day. I'll never forget it. It was the day I finally took my wedding ring off And I knew it would be the last time And so obviously it was such an emotional moment and I took my childhood Bible and I took my wedding ring Inside the pages of my childhood Bible marking to really crucial moments in my life You know the fact that I was a little girl who had red scriptures,

hoping for a certain life. And then here I am as an adult, accepting a life that is still beautiful and still good, but it just doesn't look like I thought that it would. And as I tucked the ring in the Bible, I just said, Lord, I don't want this to just be all these memories of the heart and the horrific. I want to know that I am keeping my heart pure and that this situation isn't turning me into someone that I was never meant to be.

And so I just took some of those memories, like the memory of my wedding day, and then I took maybe a memory from my honeymoon. I took a memory of, you know, when we were raising our kids and I took a memory of just some beautiful limits that we had, and then I acknowledged the heart and horrific that we've been through. And I pictured myself taking all of those things,

the good, the bad, and the ugly, placing them in Jesus' hands and saying, goodbye, goodbye. God be with you, goodbye. Wow. Gosh, that's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that as a beautiful, a beautiful picture of what it looks like and what it really means to say goodbye. And I just love that you've really leaned into the word during this and even through the end of this

because I think a lot of times you do the moments that you turn from God, but these are really the moments you have to turn to Him. And so it's really powerful to see ways that you've brought Him into that pain. Last quote, I'll say then, then we can end. I mean, I can't even just say how much this has meant to me and to people who are listening with the last thing I love It's you say we will always desperately want from other people what we fear we will never get from God and that's a really powerful quote and it's very, very true

But I love how in that moment of your Probably a lot of fears letting go of what was, what was, but leaning into who is the great I am, what have you learned about God through the process of setting boundaries and saying goodbye? Say the I have three statements that I try to incorporate into my prayers every single day, God, you are good.

God, you are good to me. And God, you are good at being God. And the reason why I think those are so important is that I want to establish the lens through which I look at my life each day, stating that God is good, God is good to me. Even when things don't feel good, even when life doesn't feel good

Even when people aren't being good to me God you are good you're good to me and you are good at being God and I need that to be the lens through which I look through To my circumstances because if I start at my circumstances and focus on those Then I start to try to determine his God faithful is God good and it takes away some of my spiritual confidence and and it takes away some of my awareness of looking for the faithfulness of God throughout my day and so it's really important I think that we go ahead and state God is good. God is good. God is good at being God and then he assess our problems through that reality. That is good. I'm going to bring that into our marriage, Krishna and I, because we've been talking

about this a lot this year. We walked through a couple really hard things this year. We had a situation where honey was in the hospital and a lot of just really scary things that we walked through. She's totally fine now. We're past that. That was this past year, last year. there. She's totally fine now. We're past that. That was this past year, last year. And, but what we were so surprised by was how much it shook us and our faith. And we both had never really struggled with doubting God's goodness or anything like that. But there was just a certain series of events that just kept happening that got both of us really in a in a hard spot and we heard this sermon about Ben Stewart at passion and he said something so powerful He said in the moment where the disciples are on the boat with Jesus and the storms coming and they're freaking out about the storm and trying to wake him up and And then he you know wakes up and he rebukes the the wind and the waves are still and also the storm goes away

And he's like why are y'all afraid? Like why are y'all panicking? And Ben said, you know, so many times we do what the disciples are that did, is we're more certain of the power of the storm than the power of God in the boat. And I thought, whoa, that is what we've been doing. We've been more certain about the things, the power behind the things that are coming at us than certain about the goodness of God.

And we both said, we will not be a family that doubts God's goodness when storms come. We're not gonna be a family that doubts God's faithfulness and goodness when hard things come our way because we live in a broken sinful world. And so we're going to bring those three statements into our marriage as just a powerful truth of this is true. This is the trust we have in our God, despite what, you know, wind and waves are right in

front of us. And so thank you for that. For passing on that wisdom. I look forward to taking that into my career life. And Lisa, again, I can't tell you how much this means to me. I know so many people listening are already being awakened to the freedom that's possible. To yes, it's going to be a long road. There's grief and fall. There's hard things, but you have given us such biblical truth about how to walk this out in such a healthy way. And so

thank you for who you are. Thank you for the advice you give. The love you pour out. So grateful for you and your whole family and your ministry and just cheering you on and all the things, Fred. Well, thank you, Sadie. And my family just loves you to pieces. My girls, you have been like a mentor to them and a beautiful peer example of what it means to love the Lord and walk faithful with the Lord.

So I love you, love your whole family, and it was such a joy to be with you today. Thank you, Fred. We love you. you