Delia Smith, NEETS, Harpist Rachel Newton
00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Hubble Space Telescope was designed to peer deeper into the universe than ever before, unlocking some of its greatest secrets. But after launch, a devastating flaw emerged. A significant spherical aberration appears to be present in the optics. National disaster. Hulloble launched with flawed mirror. The BBC Space Podcast 13 minutes is telling the inside story of how NASA rescued Hubble. The future of space astronomy depends on it.
00:35 From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes, trouble with Hubble. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. I hope you got through the weekend unscathed by all those storms. Well, this morning in the Woman's Hour studio, Delia, the British cultural icon who we are all on first name terms with.
01:15 Delia has been a driving force in changing how we cook, but can she also change how we think and act about politics? Delia Smith's new book hopes to inspire people yet again, but this time to change the world. Also, at the Prime Minister, previously promised to end what he called the moral failure of the NEETs crisis. Now, how to tackle it is one of the issues at this week's budget. We're going to hear about a new initiative, first chance,
01:42 that wants to help the almost 1 million young people that are out of work, training or education get a foot in the door. Now, maybe you have a young person at home who fits that description. What are they telling you? What to you and they feel stands in their way? There are a lot of ways to get in touch with us on most smart speakers. you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text us that number 84844 on social media.
02:08 We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3700-100-444. But also in the studio today, the harpist, Rachel Newton. But let us begin with new analysis that has found inequalities in breast cancer diagnosis. Women in England from ethnic minority backgrounds, alongside those from deprived backgrounds, are almost a third less likely to have the disease detected through routine screening. They are more likely to be diagnosed after an urgent referral or an emergency admission. The research was funded by the charity Breast Cancer Now.
02:50 I'm joined by Dr. Robert Kerrison, who's co-author of the study, and also co-lead for cancer care at the University of Surrey. Good morning, Doctor. Good to have you with us. Can you start by explaining a little more of what you found? Yes, certainly. Well, thank you very much for having me on your show. So our research was looking at how women are diagnosed with breast cancer and where inequalities in breast cancer diagnosis and treatment emerge across the breast cancer pathway. And what our research found was that women from...
03:25 Now, I'm wondering, did I just hear that line go down? sounded like a little clip there. So why don't we try and get Rob Kerrison back? I will give out our numbers again in case you'd like to get in touch with us, particularly on Needs. This is the whole issue of young people between 16 and 24. We know there's nearly a million of them that are out of work, training or education. Be really curious to hear what you're hearing from the young people that are in your life.
03:58 Maybe they live with you or maybe it's a... a friend, neighbor, niece, nephew, whomever it might be. 8444-844, you can text the program for WhatsApp, a message or a voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444. Or the latest way that you can get in touch with us is on most smart speakers. There you can say, Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment.
04:23 We are going to actually switch over. We'll come back to breast cancer a little later in the program when we get that line sorted. Actually, we do have the line just reconnected. As Delia Smith comes into the studio, I have to say hello to for just a moment to have an icon opposite me. Good to have you with us. Hello, Nula.
04:42 I'd say, happy birthday. Eight years. That's right. Use your voice is the whole theme for the next 12 years. I'm going to ask you to hold your voice for a moment because I'm going to continue speaking about breast cancer and then come back to you and your new book, which may be a surprise for some, the direction it's going in, maybe not for others.
05:04 Let me continue with Dr Robert Kerrison for a moment. Doctor, we've reconnected with you. You were telling us about what you found when it came to disparities in breast cancer diagnosis. Yes, apologies. I lost the line for a moment there. So I was saying that our research found that women from British ethnic minority groups and women who have a learning disability or a severe mental disability, illness were all less likely to be diagnosed through breast screening.
05:35 And at the same time, some of those women were more likely to be diagnosed through an emergency presentation. And this is all significant because we know that those who are diagnosed through breast screening have the best chances for survival and generally need less invasive treatments than those diagnosed through emergency presentation. And so with this, why did you decide to look at it now? So it's only recently really that we've learned that some populations have poorer breast cancer survival and are more likely to be diagnosed at a late stage. So this raised the question as to why is this happening and other opportunities for us to intervene
06:20 and try and make it so that everyone is being diagnosed at the earliest possible opportunity. Because of course that will make all the difference. Yes, absolutely. We think if we, we can make breast screening more equitable, then we can also make survival more equitable. So speaking about equality, your research also found inequalities when it came to patients with a learning disability.
06:48 What did you find there? So what we found there was that patients with a learning disability who were diagnosed with breast cancer, typically it took GPs and hospitals about 20% longer to arrive at that diagnosis. Which of course can make such a difference for outcomes as well. But with the data, it was 86,000 breast cancer cases. This was between 2009 and 2019 when it came to the data.
07:23 Were you expecting to find such a disparity? So to some extent, yes, we did expect to find some disparity. because we knew that these patients were often diagnosed at a later stage and that they had poorer chances for survival. So there was a rationale for thinking they might be less likely to be diagnosed through screening or that it might be taking longer for them to get a diagnosis. And so upon that, you also stopped your research at 2019. Why then? Yeah, so at the time of the study,
08:03 2019 was the most recent year for which we were, able to get data on breast cancer diagnosis, but also other characteristics, like whether they have a learning disability or a severe mental illness. But stopping at 2019, why? So part of the reason for that was that was the most recent year that data were available for. But also one of the advantages of that is that we didn't include data from the COVID period, which we were concerned wouldn't really be very representative of what is generally happening within breast cancer and breast cancer screening. So with what you've found thus far, is there any recommendations that you are thinking about that could change that gap? So we do have a couple of recommendations, but I think it's important to be aware that our research only tells us that these inequalities exist and not why they exist.
09:08 But there is other research that suggests that some of these communities might be less aware of breast screening, and they may have less knowledge about why breast screening is important. So just as an example, many people will be unaware that breast screening is for people who don't have any symptoms or who don't have a family history of breast cancer. And so they may be wondering why they've been invited for this test and how it might benefit them. I understand. We've often spoken about health inequalities on this program, affecting women from ethnic minority backgrounds. When it comes to maternity care, for example, mental health services, you have mentioned mental illness with some of your data. But do you think the findings of your research suggest then a larger systemic issue?
10:01 It's very difficult from our research to say whether there's a systemic issue. I think what I would say is we need to do more research really to understand why these inequalities exist and what we can do to address them. Thank you very much for starting us off. Dr. Robert Kerrison, co-author of the study and co-lead for cancer care at the University of Surrey. Just one message that was coming in. Perfect timing, right, Delia. After soaking the fruit yesterday, I'm just making her legendary.
10:36 Christmas cake, the recipe which I've used since she first published it years ago. That's from Una Kavana, giving a shout out and some love hearts to my next guest, because Delia Smith does want to talk to us about ingredients. No surprise there. But maybe what she would like the end result to be is a surprise. She would like us to transform society. In her latest book, Us, Unity, Solidarity, they stand for, nine ingredients to change our world. And she always argues that party politics and top-down leadership are no longer working. She's calling for a different approach that puts people at the heart of politics, a people's politics.
11:17 For decades, as my listeners know, Delia's influence was unrivaled in the kitchen, teaching us how to cook, selling more than 20 million books, and responsible for the Delia effect where everything she endorsed sold out. So can the Delia effect now be utilized to change our communities? So welcome to the programme. Not your first time, of course. No. You were mentioning, wishing us a happy birthday,
11:42 which I very much appreciate. Do you remember your first time on the programme? Yes, 50-something years ago. And it was my first broadcast. I hadn't been on the radio before. So Woman's Hour was my first broadcast. So that stands out. What do you remember of that time?
12:01 It was about cooking, as it would be, and it was with two other people. One was Clement Freud and the other one was Marguerite Patton. And was it a good experience? I think I was the new kid on the block and very nervous and I don't know.
12:19 I couldn't tell you. I never know whether what I do is any good or not. I think there's quite a few that would say. I know you are disarmingly humble and modest about what you have achieved and I'm just getting my first reference point on that right now. But let us talk about your book because maybe this is a book that people would not be expecting you to write.
12:44 But tell me why you felt compelled to do so. Well, I'm very old, as you know. I've been around a long time. I think the world is turning upside down. I think the times we're living in are very grave. The future doesn't look certain. I think many people are feeling anxious and afraid. And as an ordinary person in the middle of all this,
13:07 I wanted to write a book for ordinary people. Because I think we get confused. There's a lot of lies that go around. And I think that it's difficult to really know what it is that's at the root of what's going wrong. So I've tried to kind of explain that what's gone wrong, but also how we can put it right. Yeah, truth comes across in your book a lot
13:38 and that I think, if I'm paraphrasing correctly, they feel if people knew the truth or believed the truth that a lot of society's ills could be rectified. And I know you reference a number of philosophers or great thinkers. Tell me a little bit about your thinking when it comes to where we are at between truths and truths, lies, Well, I think we are living a lie. The whole world is living a lie.
14:07 And the lie is that human beings are not important, that a large swathes of humanity are considered superfluous by the people who are leading the world. And I think one of the people I mentioned was one of the greatest thinkers of the last century, Hannah Aaron, And what she said is a wonderful thing. Truth is the ground we stand on. And I believe that.
14:40 And I believe it's the safety catch. And if everybody could sit down, you know, and start some deep thinking, I think everybody has a capacity to know the truth. We each have that capacity and we need to know what the truth is. I think with Manny and you talk about it. about humans being through, some people believing humans to be superfluous or kind of being taught that lie. I mean, I think a lot of people, when it comes up to great challenges,
15:09 you get into climate change, for example, that's probably a good one, to be quite tangible, that some people can feel that their actions don't matter so much, that they can't make a difference. Individually, we can't. I can't make a difference. My book can't make a difference. But the whole message of the book is,
15:30 if human beings unite, unity and solidarity can overcome anything. And if you think about it, Noola, over the whole centuries we've existed, we haven't really tried it yet. We haven't really tried unity and solidarity. I suppose it comes out sometimes, though, doesn't it, did you? But then there's always a little bit of a backlash. I'm just thinking of the pandemic, for example. You know what I mean?
15:57 Where people really pulled together in lots of ways, trying to help each other. But then there was fractures as well with people really believing different things, for example, whether it was to do with vaccines or I could name a plethora of other issues within the pandemic about following government guidance or not. But I think you seem to believe,
16:22 and tell me more, that most people will be on the same side if they came together? Yes. I do, I do. Because tell me, who doesn't want peace and harmony? Who doesn't? We all want it really. And we have to work to get it. You know, we have to be conscious. What, you know, we need all these wonderful things like AI. But if they're going to harm human existence, then they're wrong. And we've got to stick up for our own. ourselves. Human beings are incredible. They are incredible. They are noble. And why shouldn't all of us together work out? I mean, we're all intelligent. We're frying around the back of the moon. We're trying to live on Mars, which hasn't got any oxygen or water. So we're up for, you know, doing difficult things. Why don't we just sit down and think deeply? What would happen if we're
17:29 we all got together globally and said, right, we're fed up with the politics that are not working at the moment. They are not working. But in many countries, in most countries, the political parties are fairly well entrenched and kind of even to uproot that system or even to make an adjustment to it. I'm just thinking of the Electoral College in the United States, for example, in their voting system, because I know you say it's not the people voting in some ways is the people voting for a representative as opposed to the power directly in their hands. But it takes huge upheaval to make some of those constitutional changes as they often would be. But let us talk about political parties because I know you have a huge belief in citizens' assemblies.
18:20 Do you want to tell us why? Well, because I think there are a sort of seedbed of how a united politics could work. And yes, it is difficult. But when you have a citizens' assembly, people are selected by lot. So they're just randomly selected people. They come together. First of all, they're informed. So they have to be informed before they can debate something.
18:52 And that's what's wrong with the present political systems, is we're not informed properly. So they're informed and then they have the chance to deliberate together and work out together how a subject can move forward.
19:10 Yeah, interesting because with citizens' assemblies I suppose in a way they are people people that are interested in taking part in a citizens' assembly and they would hear from experts
19:26 witnesses, etc. Yeah. I mean, some compare them to juries, but that's literally you get a letter in the mail and you're up. Well, it's the same thing. And the jury system has worked since the 12th century really well. So it's the same thing. We're taking random people and we're putting them together.
19:48 And when you say, yes, it's all very difficult. It is very difficult. So someone needs to write a book. and explain the difficulties and also encourage people that they can do something. Would you like people to be compelled to do something in the sense
20:05 like mandatory? I'm just thinking of Australian their voting systems that mandatory voter would you prefer to all to be voluntary? No, no, not mandatory. I think each human being is special and each human being has something
20:19 to offer all the rest. And if you had a united community and the will of the people run the world rather than the representatives of the people. The representatives of the people who are running the world are not doing what they should do and that's caring for the people. With citizens' assemblies though,
20:46 you believe, because at the moment what they do is make recommendations and then the government will look at them. You believe, would you like them to have more powers or more teeth, so to speak? Well, actually, the country that's leading citizens' assemblies is Dublin. In Ireland, yeah. They had it for both gay marriage and also the abortion referendum.
21:07 Well, and the abortion referendum, the politicians let them get on with it. I praise the politicians in that case. They let them get on with it. And for 20 years or so, they couldn't shift it. And then suddenly the people voted, the concerted. institution was changed. Can you see the seed bed there of something bigger? I will put that out to my audience.
21:33 8444. What do you think about some of the thoughts that Deidio's putting forth that she has in her book? And of course there are referendums as well that take place that could be considered perhaps closer to what you're talking about. But I don't think referendums are any good. the people aren't informed properly. That is definitely a huge potential obstacle of how to get everybody informed, particularly in an age of media saturation
22:12 and be it misinformation or disinformation that people can be immersed in. Yeah, but if people were in charge of the world, they'd be in charge of the media. Let us... Sorry, please continue. I've got all the answers. I'm sorry.
22:31 Which I love in a guest. Because it comes down to community. I know that's what you're saying, you know, on a day-to-day level from the way you interact with somebody that you see at the bus stop from those larger issues as well in like running the world.
22:46 You do say if we want an example of joined up community, have a look at sport. You and your late husband, Michael, and I'm so sorry for your loss because I know it was very recent. Thank you.
22:56 Spent more than 25 years as majority shareholders. Oh, okay. Let me be corrected. 28 years as majority shareholders of Norwich City FC. Tell me what you mean by that. What did you find at Norwich about human connection? Well, I think, first of all, I think we all need to feel that we belong to something. And with a world community, everybody would feel they belong.
23:24 to it and I think with a sport people belong to it and they they relate to each other as community and I just am amazed because I'm a football supporter that I can go anywhere in the world and bump into other football supporters and I've got an instant friend particularly if they're wearing certain colours but you know some might say particularly with football particularly with men's football, that it can be tribal. You know, I was quite surprised when I first came at England and it'd be home fans only, you know, in certain pubs or home colours only. Kind of growing up with Irish sport, that just would not have been a thing, which is an
24:08 amateur sport, you know, when it comes to Gaelic football. But yeah, I mean, what about that? Well, what I've seen of it, and we have big rivals, but what I've seen of it is when it comes down to it in the pub after the match and one team's lost and all the supporters are together makes no difference. They all really get on together. I mean the sort of tribalism is a is like anything else you know it's competitive it's yeah it's sometimes very funny right I mean mine is they're often kept separate um you know traditionally even today you know I think that's going now do you yes I
24:52 think it's disappearing. Anyway, in our football club, we never had to do anything like that. Let us continue as we move from sport as well. And I know what you're attempting to do with this book is really inspire confidence, like you did with so many of your books when it came to the kitchen, for example, in people cooking. This is to inspire confidence in people to take the reins. I would say anybody can cook if someone shows them how.
25:19 and we can save our world if we learn how to do it if we join forces and we learn together how to do it. You talked about community and human connection we've just spoken as well of the death of your husband of 55 years, Michael Wynne Jones. How you also are out publicly, obviously,
25:47 at this time as well, talking about what we've been talking about. but I'm wondering if community or human connection has helped over these weeks. I have just been totally and utterly overwhelmed. I mean, before I wrote the book, I knew there is a connection between human beings and we don't always realize how deep it is. But I have just experienced an avalanche of love
26:15 from all parts of the country and from abroad, And I'm just overwhelmed by actually how good people are. And what we've got to get into our heads is that there's a lot of badness in the world. But goodness is stronger, if we could only understand that. A 55-year marriage, that is impressive. How would you describe it? Well, it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And all I can feel now is total gratitude, absolutely.
26:50 gratitude. My husband was, you know, and again, in all this avalanche of comments, I'm finding out, I knew who was good, I'm now finding out it was a saint. I knew there was a St. Delia, but maybe now there is also a St. Michael. Definitely. I've had journalists, because he was an editor, say he helped them to make their careers. I've had young cricketers who were young, who he helped because he was the local cricket captain. I have had messages from everywhere about how absolutely wonderful he was. How beautiful is that? That is a life well lived.
27:30 And a little onto your legacy as well. Are you still, I don't know, immersed in that world? I mean, you started at all. I was going back watching some of your TV shows as well on everything from teaching us how to boil an egg to how to make a potato tasty. But now it feels, talking about media saturation, like we're inundated with cookery shows. Do you turn them on? Do you see what they're doing differently? How do you feel about them? I can't bear to watch them. Really? Because I did it myself and it was hard work and I don't want to be reminded of it. I mean, I love doing it but I just can't watch TV cooking now.
28:12 I just, oh, I don't want to know. Don't want to know. Well, it's been so lovely to have you in. Thank you so much for joining me here in the studio. And I will let people know the ingredients. She's not turning on the cookery shows, but she's still mixing up some ingredients and stirring it up, shall we say. Delia Smith, nine ingredients to change our world on the front. Us, it is unity and solidarity.
28:37 Thanks so much for coming in. It was a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. He's the founder of the Adani Group, one of India's major infrastructure conglomerates. And with interests ranging from ports to airports to power generation and green energy. He's become one of Asia's wealthiest individuals.
28:58 On Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service, we're delving into the life and fortune of billionaire businessman Gautam Adani. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, if you'd like to get in touch with the program, 8444-844 is one way to do that. We want to speak about Needs next. not in touch of me. They say, I work within a local authority, supporting young people into education, training and employment. And I see how incredibly complex the neat issue really is. We need to stop treating neat young people as one group with one problem. I see young people
29:43 leaving school, stress, disengaged with qualifications that don't reflect their potential. They face competition for college places, fewer meaningful entry-level opportunities and generic courses that don't connect with their aspirations. So employers want experience, colleges want qualifications, and young people are left wondering, where are they supposed to start? Well, we are talking about this because earlier this month, Prime Minister Andy Burnham warned that the UK faces an economic catastrophe and moral failure due to the 1 million young people not in education, employment or training or needs as they've been termed. It's now Budget Week, as you may know. And how to address the issue is to the forefront. Alan Milburn led the Young People and Work Review
30:30 which reported that if every neat young person was in full-time work this would have contributed an additional 38 billion pounds to UK GDP and that would be if they were 18 to 24 he also said money are not simply jobless but estranged from the world of work so the Department of Work and Pensions
30:50 they announced a new initiative called First Chance encouraging employers to help young people get jobs in their companies Royal Mail signed up to the scheme. They're one of the UK's biggest employers and Royal Mail's Chief Corporate Affairs Officer, Jenny Hall, is with me. Good to have you with us. Thanks very much for having me.
31:09 Tell me a little bit about the scheme and also what it will mean for Royal Mail. Yeah, so Royal Mail, as you say, it's one of the biggest employers in the country, 130,000 people. And that means that one in 200 working people out there are working for Royal Mail. You know, it takes a lot to reach 32 million addresses every single day. And so we've got involved in the first chance program that Alan Milburn has been spearheading, which is all about big employers and employers of all sizes indeed making sure that they're bringing on more people who are not in employment, education or training. So we've made pledges to make sure that at least 10% of our new recruits are from that as well.
31:51 So what would they be doing? What sort of jobs or is it training? So the beauty of Royal Mal is that there's so many different jobs that are on offer. I think a lot of people you might immediately think, oh, well, it's the postman-pat sort of, you know, posty jobs that are out there. But actually, we've got fleet apprentices. It takes a lot to keep 50,000 vehicles on the road. We've got engineering apprentices all throughout the organisation as well. We've got about 500 of those throughout the organisation. And then a series of graduates and degree apprentices as well that we need to really bring in that next.
32:25 generation within Royal Mail, whether it's from finance through to HR through to all those other corporate services as well. There are a lot of young people already at Royal Mail. One in four of your new recruits is age 25 or under. What do you think are some of the barriers or obstacles that they face when they take up work? So I think more broadly, and then I'll come to one that's a bit more specific for Royal Mail. I think more broadly, as Anne-Milbain said, there's far fewer young people are actually going and getting Saturday jobs these days. The figures can be quite stark. And so it does mean that when you're a large employer, sometimes taking on young people when they haven't necessarily had the basics of, you know, the turning up on time, I know what
33:10 it's like in the workplace, all of those things as well. I think that does possibly hold young people back. And I think we have to look at the root causes of that as well, you know, and I'm looking back 30 years ago or something like that. But, you know, when, when I was younger, doing my first Saturday job, I was significantly cheaper than other people, but it meant that employers would give young people a bit of a chance and go, well, yes, look, they might not be that productive to start with, but let's get them in and let's give them a chance.
33:38 Yeah. One very specific one for us that is really holding us back from recruiting young people is the lack of driving licences. It is costing, to be a posty these days, you know, it's not just all about walking the streets with a bundle of letters because those are dwindling. It's about parcels and you do need to be able to increasingly drive a van to be able to help us deliver. And it costs between about £1,500 and £3,000 to learn to drive these days. And we've still got that backlog of getting driving tests since the pandemic.
34:10 So that is a massive, massive barrier when you're an organisation like us. And so one of the things that we'd really like the government to do is to allow us to use some of our apprenticeship levy that we've been funding in to actually help fund driving licences for young people. So interesting. There's probably more to that as well because I know some young people I've spoken to, they have no interest in learning to drive. It's kind of a cultural shift as well for lots of different reasons behind it. But I hadn't even thought about it on the employment aspect. Well, sitting beside Jenny, we have Catherine Sacks Jones, who's CEO at the Young Women's Trust. And you have been researching these particular challenges that young women are facing that fit this description as well.
34:50 I'm wondering you hear a little bit about Jenny talking about the experiences of Royal Mail what you'd like to add. Yeah, I mean, I think your listener was spot on that when we're talking about young people who are out of work, they're not one homogenous group. And particularly young women and young men tend to have different experiences of being out of work.
35:11 So just under half of all young people who are neat are young women. Young men are more likely to be unemployed. So they're more likely to be out of work. but looking for work, whereas young women are more likely to be what's called economically inactive, which means they're not in a position to be looking for work. So there's some real differences there. And the things young women tell us, the reasons they give for being out of work, a really huge one is childcare. So around 3 and 10 young women who are not in education,
35:39 employment or training, they say the reason for that is they're looking after children. Similar number, around 3 and 10, it's mental health problems that are stopping them from looking for work. But yet I think a lot of the times, debate tends to focus on job creation and often in environments that are typically traditionally more male as well, the kind of jobs that we're talking about. And we don't talk about some of these issues like childcare, like mental health and disability that are affecting all young people, but particularly impacting on young women's experiences. Because if we think of entry-level jobs, generally you have to put up, you don't have that much autonomy, let's say, or self-determination.
36:20 I think that's exactly right. That's a huge issue. A lack of flexibility in entry-level jobs is a huge issue for young women who also need to get their kids to school, you know, who also need to care for other relatives or young women who have mental health problems who really need that kind of flexibility because of their conditions. And unfortunately, a lot of the entry-level jobs that are out there, which, as we all know, are disappearing rapidly, you know, don't work with those kind of requirements that young women often have. I'd be curious, Jenny, for your thoughts on that, because I'm thinking of delivery shifts. For example, it could start very early before nurseries open or maybe the hours aren't as flexible or can't be as flexible. So when you're running such a massive logistical operation, yes, shifts do have a role because the post comes in at a certain time. You're under hard pressure to get it to the end destination 24 hours later. But I think because we're an employee with such national scale and because we can move people around into different roles at different. stages in their career. Actually, we can find the things that are right for people. So, as you say, for a delivery posty, you'd probably start at 7 o'clock in the morning, so you'd miss the school drop-off,
37:30 but you'd be probably finishing around the time where you could pick up your kids from school. So a lot of women actually really like that. And also, we have a lot of part-time roles that you've got as well. Similarly, I speak to a lot of, I'm the executive sponsor for women in Royal Mail, and I speak to a lot of women that've worked there for 30-odd years. And the career has grown with them, because they've moved into a male centre, so one of our big processing sites, to do completely different shift times that work around their children.
37:54 So I think depending on the employer, there are different things that you can end up doing to support women into work. It's interesting when you talk about your role at Royal Mail as well when it comes to supporting women. When we talk about Catherine, longer term jobs and progression, the UK Chartered Management Institute, they reported this month that only 24% of female managers
38:14 that they surveyed strongly agree that their organisation offers equal opportunities to progress into management that is compared to 44% of male managers. We mentioned part-time, for example, that Jenny said could be a possibility. But can the young women you help, for example, work part-time and really hope to develop significantly in their career?
38:37 Yeah, so I think there is still a real issue with young women progressing in work and some of that is down to the fact that even now in this day and age, over half of young women tell us that they experience discrimination in the workplace because of being a woman, which is a strikingly high number and that kind of really affects their chances at progression. We know from speaking to HR managers that a worrying proportion say they think men would make better senior leaders than women, even today. So, you know, these barriers are still there.
39:10 But then when we layer onto that, the fact that women are more likely to be in part-time work. and we know that part-time work offers fewer opportunities for training, for development, and also as you progress upwards, you know, into more senior roles, there are fewer part-time roles out there. So that is also a significant challenge for young women wanting to progress at work. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that, Jenny. Yeah. So, I mean, as I say, I'm in the logistic industry.
39:36 It is known for being a pretty male-dominated industry. And even on our own stats reflect that. So about one in five of our workforce overall are women, four and five of men. But in our senior leadership population, actually, it's about a third are women. So we're kind of bucking the trend there and more women are getting through into those senior leadership roles. I don't know what the – there's still a lot more to do in that space, definitely. And I don't know what the secret source is that means that people are able to do that. But I do think culture has a huge part of it and making sure that you do have people that are pushing more women,
40:10 making sure you've got mentoring, sponsorship as well. And by sponsorship, I really mean I've benefited from other men and women who have really pushed me forward in my career. So I think that helps when you're getting into managerial roles. But Catherine is absolutely right. The kind of the step from going to that part of your career where you're in more entry-level roles and perhaps you're dealing with childcare responsibilities and so on.
40:36 I do think there is a responsibility on the employers to really think through creative. How do you make sure that they are still in the workplace, still working those out, so that they can get to the senior managerial positions by the time they're hitting their 40s and 80s. With Royal Mail, you know, some of my listeners may be saying, but they've been in the news, for example, announcing plans to cut 2,500 head office jobs and other supporting roles by the end of 2027. But will that not affect young people who are taking part in first chance this particular initiative?
41:08 So that is more about, as you say, it's our head office and support function roles. So no, that's not going to stop us from bringing in thousands and thousands more young people. The changes that we've announced around the 2,500 role reductions, is all about actually becoming a much more efficient organisation, reducing some duplication that we have and making sure we're really focused on the biggest things for the strategy. But to make sure that we can deliver a great service for our customers, make sure that we're also preparing ourselves for the future of the world of work.
41:40 We desperately want to attract many more thousands of young people to come and work for Royal Mail and make sure we're really set up for the future. Catherine, Budget Week, this is why we're talking about this. Do you think there's much difference or will much difference be made by a scheme like first chance that helps give, I suppose, a foot in the door or a leg up, use whatever analogy you'd like
42:04 for people to get into some of these bigger companies? So I think, you know, schemes like first chance are really welcome. We need to make sure that the kind of opportunities that we are talking about, particularly when we're talking about traditionally more male-dominated industries like the Postal Service, are attractive and open and that young women see that they could be part of that as well, and they're not just focused. We see a lot of imagery of, you know, young men in hard hats, but we need to make sure that we're promoting these opportunities to young women as well
42:32 and saying this is something for you. So I think that's really important. But we need to look as well at the factors that are holding young women back. So particularly a lack of flexibility in work. So it's great to hear Jenny talk about offering more flexible, more part-time opportunities. That's really important. But young women need support with childcare. If a young woman can't afford childcare or can't find childcare that fits around her shift patterns,
42:55 she's not going to be able to take up a job. If she can't get support with her mental health problem, if she's left languishing for years trying to get help and can't, then she's not going to be able to take up that opportunity. opportunity. So we need employment support which recognises the challenges that young women face and addresses some of these issues. One message coming in, just listening to the item on Royal Mail, needs. While it's great to encourage women into the organisation, it was stated that one of the barriers for women getting into work is that they're looking after children. That was with all of our
43:25 guests. Let's not forget that looking after children is work. It's just not paid. Indeed, paid work, Claire and Somerset, thank you very much for your message. Also, why should should solutions for NEET be limited to people 18 to 24 year olds. Actually, they're looking 16 to 24 year olds when it comes to education and training as well. My son is 33. He has ADHD, has extreme social anxiety and is afraid to leave his bedroom. He's never, ever had a job and spends his time playing computer games. I see nowhere I can go for help.
43:56 Really interesting as well. Thank you very much for sharing that. Indeed, Alan Milburn, just talk about people, young people, and specifically, but people that have been in a special. estranged from the world of work and haven't really interacted with it at all. So keep your messages coming, 84844. Thanks very much to my guest, Jenny Hall, Chief Corporate Affairs Officer, Royal Mail, and Catherine Sachs Jones, CEO at the Young Women's Trust.
44:21 Thanks very much. Now, as the seasons change, and didn't they change over the past week, you may have noticed the autumn bugs setting in. But when children are unwell, it can sometimes be difficult to know what's just another common cold and when their symptoms need further investigation. The latest episode of CBB's parenting download is here to help. The presenters, Katie Thistleton and Governor B, are joined by the Traitor Series. Series 3 winner, that's Leanne Quigley, and GP and medical broadcaster, Dr. Nekad Arif.
44:52 Hands down, the first bit of advice is you know your babies. You know your babies so well that even I as a clinician won't know them. And I think this is where sticking with your gut instinct, as a mum, And as a GP, we work with our gut. Your gut is literally your sixth sense. So when mum comes in and says to me, you know, my son Ralph or Freddie, this is not how they would normally behave. That's a red flag because mum knows and dad knows really, really well. The other thing is, is that check for at home where they can be sometimes hamming up their symptoms. And I've got that more in my 11-year-old now.
45:29 I'm finding that sometimes he'll overplay something. Oh, yeah. Because it can go under the radar. and I'll be like, because I know he's poorly. So when you've got someone who's always poorly, they also know how to switch on the overacting. And parents are so clued up about that as well. I always say to him, you know your mother's a doctor.
45:49 So you can't kid, kidder. No chance. For moms who have, like your babies are small and they're back at school again, but they've got chronic illnesses, like you said, with lungs, etc. But you know when it's what the bar is? Yeah. It's having that sliding scale of this is a, actually now not great and I need to go in and have a hospital trip. Symptom diaries are brilliant.
46:10 And I've started saying to my patients now, phones, your phones are brilliant to photograph them or like a rash because by the time they come in, it's changed. And video them as well. So if they're a bit more floppier than they would be, they're lying on the couch feeling sorry for themselves. Because the minute they walk into my room, they're happy as Larry? Yeah, I definitely felt always the way. I always now take photos and I always film because as soon as we're in A&E, he's running up and down. You say bolt. Exactly.
46:36 And then the parents was looking at me going, oh, Dr. Naga it was, you know, Lucy was not like this. I'm like, babe, I believe you, but can I just see it? Dr. Naga Rief and Leanne
46:48 Quigley speaking to Katie Thistleton and Governor B and you can hear the full episode by going to BBC Sounds and searching for the CBB's Parenting Download or checking out the new CBB's Parenting YouTube channel. So many messages
47:01 that have come in about DIA. How refreshing to hear an older woman clearly loaded with emotional intelligence, taking talking such sense. I had no idea that Delia was such a well-informed radical social thinker. Thanks to Women's Hour for amplifying her voice. I hope we can hear it more often and that politicians take note. Here's another. I agree with Delia.
47:21 We've lost our can-do attitude and a belief that what we do as individuals can collectively affect change. It's about self-belief, which is continuously being eroded. So says Anne-Marie. Here's another. This is going on to Needs instead. I'm a teacher and I also have a son who's 23 who is a neat. The issues I see go back years and years and years. Largely kids don't get the support they need early on
47:45 and they're not getting support in the classrooms if they have any sort of learning issue. You can't get an appointment with CAMS and you can't get any support if a kid is self-harming. It's just to know they are completely demotivated and it's easier for them to stay at home. And just as I speak about self-harm, There is a link to help and support on the BBC Action Line.
48:08 Lots of you getting in touch about everything we've been speaking about this morning. Thank you very much about that. Even about my next guest, Rachel Newton, who actually you heard a little at the beginning of the programme. Here's one from Isabel. Dear Women's Are, you have no idea how much joy it brings me to hear a fellow harpist on the radio. I have played since the age of eight.
48:31 I'm now 18, so rarely meet others that play the same instrument as me. I'm also part of the West Sussex Youth Orchestra, which is such a thrilling experience. The harp is such a fabulous instrument and it's such a diverse range of music that can be played. I did think about asking my harpist listeners to get in touch to chat with Rachel Newton. Good to have you back in studio with us. Oh, thanks for having me. Lovely way to start and thank you for braving the wind and the rain to make it this far with your harp. for those that are not familiar with you
49:02 I will let them know that you are an award-winning Scottish harpist and singer you were named BBC Radio 2 folk musician of the year in 2017 you blend trad and contemporary folk music you perform on the acoustic and electric harp and are a member of the acclaimed Spell Songs Collective the latest, the collective's latest album in thin air is a companion project to Robert McFarlane
49:25 and Jackie Morris's The Book of Birds a field guide to wonder and loss. And for that album, Rachel contributed the song A Life Begun, which is going to perform for us a little later. That is very apt with some of her life experiences of late. So we heard from that listener, Isabel, how she started playing. What about you? I also started, like, Isabel, I started playing when I was eight.
49:50 I'm a bit older than 18, mind you. But, yeah, I was really lucky. I went to a Gaelic speaking school in Edinburgh. and at that time all the state schools had a, you know, you could get free instrumental tuition and because it was the Gallic school, we had the harp or the clarsach, which is a Gaelic name for it. And would you have a choice of instruments and chose the harp?
50:12 Yeah, I did briefly play the trombone for a few weeks, but I wasn't very good. No, yeah, it was unusual to have the Clarsok or the harp as an option. We got to take it home at the weekends and things like that. So it was a really great way in and I actually had free instrumental tuition all the way through school till I was 18 so I was really lucky.
50:31 Really wonderful. So you decided to set your sights and your heart on the harp but not the easiest thing to transport? No, no. I do, full disclaimer, it's not quite as big as the pedal harp that you see in an orchestra.
50:45 It's slightly smaller but still yeah, enough to cause problems. Half walk yesterday on the trains, no doubt. Yes. I mentioned there the latest album in thin air and this companion project your song which I was listening to A Life Begun and our listeners will hear soon
51:03 it was inspired by a chick cracking out of an egg but it took on new personal meaning for you following the birth of your child you developed a rare condition called pregnancy associated osteoporosis can you explain a little what happened yeah so I had a very kind of normal pregnancy. I felt pretty good. I had had back problems in the past but
51:26 you know I was feeling yeah surprisingly good and it came to giving birth and I ended up having an unplanned cesarean and I kind of went to sit up on the bed to get the caesarian and this kind of unbelievable pain sort of shuddering pain sort of went through my back and my spine and I was kind of calling out telling people but Of course, at that point, you know, it's all happening. And then I had an epidural and it's the best I've ever felt in my life. But yeah, as it sort of went on from there, I just had these terrible kind of convulsing,
52:04 kind of shaking kind of panic, almost like panic attacks. And I didn't know what it was at the time and nobody knew. I had maternity physio for weeks and weeks, in fact, months afterwards. I had a lot of help psychiatric help too in case it was that nobody knew none of the medical professionals that worked with me had ever heard of pregnancy associated
52:28 osteoporosis I wasn't able to look after my baby independently and both me and my partner is self-employed so he wasn't able to work he had to be there all the time and I just didn't you know I didn't know why and I suppose because the narrative around
52:44 women's health especially after childbirth is is, you know, you kind of, oh well, we're all kind of used to suffering and kind of, there's that element. I think I just didn't question it, maybe as much as I would have done. But even if I had, I don't think I would have had those answers because it's so, so rare and unknown. And it wasn't until I actually was playing a show at five months. I had to go back to work. Somehow, I'm not sure how I managed to play the heart.
53:09 And it was a friend that actually came up to me and told me she had it and she thought that's what I had. Just pure chance, lucky and unlucky, of course, to have it with your patron of the charity PAO and you are raising awareness. But just you're going to perform for us now a life begun. But tell me a little bit of that cracking the egg and why it is so apt. So, yeah, so this gorgeous book, the Book of Birds is in seven wonders. It's kind of in seven chapters, I guess, with these 49 birds. And one of them is egg. and Robert McFarlane writes so beautifully about the egg.
53:49 And actually I took some words from Jackie Morris, the artist too, and her gorgeous illustrations, about this, you know, something so delicate and beautiful having to break in order for new life to begin. What, it's a kind of, I suppose, heartbreaking image, really, you know what I mean? Something very beautiful and very poignant, but obviously something painful that you went through as well. but you have your little child now who's great
54:17 and you're doing better? Yes, yeah, I've lost a lot of height so structurally my body's very different. You're a few inches shorter, did it? Yeah, good few inches shorter and that's the real red flag for people listening to look out for. That's the main red flag.
54:32 Thank you so much for coming in. I do want to let people know that you're a member of the Spell Songs Collective, the collective's latest album in thin air, companion, as we said, to the book of Birds. but Rachel contributed that song that you have just heard a life begun. So gorgeous. Thank you very much for coming in and playing for us here in the studio.
54:53 I do want to also let people know that tomorrow we have the renowned historical fiction writer Philippa Gregory. She'll be discussing her new novel, Royal Witch, which is wonderful. It centres on Eleanor Cobain, an ambitious noblewoman in the court of Henry V, who used astrology and other so-called darrow. arts in an attempt to gain power. Also, it is 20 years of Amy Winehouse's iconic album Back to Black. We'll discuss its legacy. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.
55:29 Boom, how are you? It is Danny here. Just dropping into your feet to let you know and something very exciting is coming your way. There is a chill in the air. The evenings are drawing in. It can only mean one thing. It is time to get ready for the spookiest night of the year. Paranormal Christmas with our annual Halloween countdown. Every day in October, we are going to be releasing a brand new tiny tale of terror, a mini uncanny case sent in by you, the uncanny community. I'm going to be reading your emails out and sharing some truly spooky stuff that will scare a living shizzle out of you.
56:09 Trust me. There'll be hauntings, time slips, apparitions, and some truly weird and wonderful real-life witness accounts of poltergeists, ghost dogs, and even some phantom false teeth. So that is the uncanny Halloween countdown, dropping every day right through to Halloween itself. Will you be there? I hope so. Until then, stay spooky. An observatory in space. This is the real deal.
56:45 This is going to revolutionize astronomy. capable of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess, and for the whole world. From the BBC World Service, 13 Minutes, Trouble with Hubble, the story of the Hubble Space Telescape. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
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