You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - How Bitcoin Can Be Co-opted Without Being Destroyed - Efrat Fenigson | Ep. 159

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

I’ve been interviewed this week by Bernardo Braga from Brazil on his podcast. In his words:“Bitcoin doesn't need to be destroyed to lose the war. If people give up self-custody and agree to exchange Bitcoin for pieces of Wall Street paper, defeat has already begun.In this conversation, Efrat Fenigson and I talked about Bitcoin Core, Michael Saylor, stablecoins, and the risk of Bitcoin becoming another piece of the fiat system.She also shares how the pandemic turned her life upside down and why she turned down a larger sponsorship offer from Coinkite before the Coldcard debacle.”→ Please like, comment, share & subscribe, to help me beat the suppressing algo's. Thank you!SPONSORS→ Download the free report on second citizenships & setting up a plan B in another country with Expat Money: https://expatmoney.com/efrat→ Access liquidity without selling your Bitcoin with Ledn, get 0.25% off your first loan: https://ledn.io/Efrat    → Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn→ Have you tried mining bitcoin? Stack sats directly to your wallet while saving on taxes with Abundant Mines: https://AbundantMines.com/Efrat - Claim your free month of hosting via this linkAFFILIATES→ Want to preserve your privacy online? Get a GrapheneOS privacy phone or laptop, up to $150 off “Above Phone” products + extra $50 off with code EFRAT: https://abovephone.com/efrat/ → Get 15% off “Born To Be Free” all-natural, tallow-based skincare products on a bitcoin standard, using code EFRAT: https://oshi.link/1nvZYq  → Join me in these upcoming events & use code EFRAT for discounted tickets: https://www.efrat.blog/p/upcoming-events→ Get 10% off on Augmented NAC to detox Spike protein, with the code YCXKQDK2 via this link: https://store.augmentednac.com/?via=efrat (This is not medical advice, please consult your MD)→ Watch “New Totalitarian Order” conference with Prof. Mattias Desmet & Efrat - code EFRAT for 10% off: https://efenigson.gumroad.com/l/desmet_efratLINKSBernardo on X: https://x.com/eubernardobraga  Efrat’s X: https://twitter.com/efenigsonEfrat’s Channels: https://linktr.ee/efenigsonWatch on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoiceSupport Efrat’s work: ⁠https://bit.ly/zap_efratCHAPTERS 00:00 Highlights01:35 Who is Efrat Fenigson?05:26 How the pandemic awakened Efrat09:07 The fiat system as modern slavery13:07 BIP-110, Bitcoin Knots and Bitcoin Core14:46 Ledn's message16:05 Is Bitcoin Core being co-opted?19:35 Who funds developers?25:19 Wall Street, BlackRock and the Attack on Bitcoin26:44 Self-custody and vulnerable points30:00 The responsibility of Bitcoiners33:58 Ideology and values within Bitcoin Core42:02 What happened to Michael Saylor?47:08 Stablecoins: the new digital money49:48 Fiat on steroids56:32 The future of free communities01:02:57 A protocol of sovereignty for your life01:10:27 How Efrat Became a Freedom Activist01:13:21 Democracy, corruption and political theater01:17:22 Coldcard, Coinkite and the rejected proposal

I decided that I'm going to devote my life to be of service of humanity and try to help people to navigate a very crazy decade that we're in between 2020 and 2030. So then when I started learning about Fiat, it all made sense. You know, this is like the ultimate, I would say, like modern enslavement system without actually seeing the shackles on your hands and feet. It's just the incentive structure just shackles you. The way I'm looking at Bitcoin now and the protocol with all of its layers, I suspect that there are several layers that are more vulnerable than others

to be centralized and to be co-opted or controlled. I believe we are stepping into a very special time in which people who appreciate freedom, who appreciate values of sovereignty and, you know, liberty, etc. they will work so hard to create that reality for them and it will magnetize. Hello, Efrat. It's been a long time we've been planning to have you here. I think life happens and sometimes it's not possible, but here we are. So welcome for the first time to Better Money Podcast.

It's an honor to have you. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Bernardo. Yeah, you're one of the, my favorite podcasters. you didn't start talking about Bitcoin specifically, but for the audience that doesn't know you yet, who are you? Who is a fat?

I ask myself the same question sometimes. What the hell am I? Right. I'm an independent journalist. I run the podcast, You're the Voice for the past three and a bit years. and I'm a public speaker, so I'm a digital nomad. I travel around the world between conferences and different cities and countries and places

and I speak wherever I can because I've decided about three, four years ago, when I left my last job, my last normal job, I decided that I'm going to devote. my life to be of service of humanity and try to help people to navigate a very crazy decade that we're in between 2020 and 2030. I think it's a very important decade of a change, like a transitory decade that I've learned a lot about. And I'm writing articles, whether it's in magazines or on my blog and I interview a lot of people out of my really big curiosity to learn how things look like in their countries or in their lives and what kind of tools they can inspire my audience to adopt in order to be more sovereign, more free and take responsibility

over their lives, which is also the process that I am going through myself. So it's a selfish thing because I choose to interview people that I think I can learn from. But then I take, I kind of take my audience with me on that journey. And I think it's a win-win for everyone. And so I did a big change four years ago. allowed to be selfish given that you're in this noble mission. Yeah. So I mean, for sure.

But I think this is right. This is the best type of selfish, right? To be selfish in a way that you win, but everyone else wins around you too. So, you know, it's a sweet spot. No one cares if you win and they win, it's a win-win. So I made a big change, I think, four, five years ago when I decided to leave my corporate job. So I used to be a chief marketing officer in tech companies, global companies, startups for about 20 years. So I started my journey as a computer developer. I was always around

tech. I graduated in computer science degree. I lived in Australia for six years. I worked as a computer developer in video games companies for a few years. And then I transitioned to business and marketing. And when I got into marketing, I felt like I found my spot. I really loved it. And I started developing myself in that direction. And that was like most of my life. That's what I've done.

Marketing and tick. And I loved it. But I started to get annoyed with that career about one or two years into COVID because I felt like, you know, let's put COVID aside for a second, which was a major catalyst for change for me anyway, but if we just look at the career path, I started learning about money because I started learning, you know, this is where COVID comes in. COVID woke me up. So I started learning about everything like what the fuck is happening here. Why is life so crazy all of a sudden? Why are governments losing it? Why is there an orchestrated marketing campaign between all countries around

the world to say the same stuff, you know, to bring out the same mandates, the same. same where where were you living in COVID I was in Israel during that time so I was born and raised in Israel by the way and I lived in Australia for six years but most of my life was in Israel and I also have an Australian citizenship so I my son lives there my ex-husband lives there but back to that so COVID kind of woke me up and I started noticing everything and once I had traced the origin of, you know, who are the people who are kind of pulling the strings, all the globalist organizations, the World Health Organization, the World Economic Forum, the Bank of International Settlements, you know, you know, there are so many of them.

Yeah, MF. It's just crazy to find out all this information. And then you learn that the United Nations Agenda 2030 is really the bigger, overarching plan that is being rolled out in this decade where we're at now with the deadline of 2030. And that's why we're seeing an acceleration in so many things. So then when I get there, I'm like, okay, but this is all being pushed because there are incentives. So I want to learn why the money is so prominent in this agenda.

So one thing takes me to the next and I get to the money. And I never learned about money. I was never interested in money. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to work hard. I'm going to save for me for my son. I'm going to put it, you know, aside so my son can enjoy it when he grows up. But I had no real interest in money because I thought it's too big for me. Like, I'm not going to understand it as, you know, it is quite complicated, the fiat system on purpose.

But then you find yourself, you know, having to beat inflation, having to, you know, save and really make sure that your money is not lost in that saving. You can't just keep it in the bank because it just doesn't make sense. You lose money and my salary is not going up. Hedge fund manager like safety says. Exactly. And my salary is not going up in the same pace as the inflation. So, you know, so I have an apartment for an investment.

And I start being a landlord as well as being a single mom and a career woman, you know, a chief marketing officer, managing big teams, big budgets, like working really hard. And I find myself like looking at this, going, fuck this shit. It can't be so complicated. I can't believe that life is supposed to be that hard. And I am privileged. I have quite a lot of money because I worked really hard like throughout these years and I saved. Yeah, I did many things in order to save my money. But still, it's like it doesn't make sense. And now that I know that all these crazy people are bringing, you know, pandemics and all this bullshit and ruining democracies and all that stuff, I know that this is all a game and

something doesn't add up. So then when I started learning about Fiat, it all made sense. You know, this is like the ultimate, I would say, like modern enslavement system without actually seeing the shackles on your hands and feet. The incentive structure just shackles you. And you are playing that game trying to race the inflation and the taxation, but you can't and you're losing. And yeah. It probably was a painful journey at some point, right?

The transition in the awakening phase. Yeah, that was hard. It was lonely and it was hard. And probably people around you. were judging you and thinking you went crazy. How was that, like how was the process in the early stages before you became a full on maxi and a bitcoiner and it educated in your life? Because I'm pretty sure that you're one of the people I know that spends the most time

amongst Bitcoiners. So you don't suffer that much anymore. But everybody has, everybody who's watching here has some level of exposure to NPCs and it's painful. Well, I have my share, my fair share of some. suffering. You know, I'm now next to my family, for example, or next to many people. I just shared a clip. I was interviewed a year ago by the mainstream media TV show in Israel to talk about Bitcoin. And, you know, that small clip of like 20, 30 seconds, he's asking me, so why,

you know, why are you, why have you done all these crazy actions that you've taken, like putting your pension money into Bitcoin and all that stuff? And I'm like, because, dude, it's, it's like, he He says, you may be a billionaire one day. I won't tell you that there is no chance, but the risk is huge. That's what he says. And I said, but dude, I'm not doing this to be a billionaire. I'm doing this because I'm concerned of the institutional systems, the Fiat system, the state. I don't, and he goes, why?

I said, because I don't trust the state and I don't trust the banks. And I don't trust those systems to, you know, to take care of me. They're stealing from me. So, you know, I'm surrounded by that too because I choose to, you know, if they ask to interview, I talk to them and I try to educate. And I am being like the most extreme or, you know, crazy person that they see that is related to Bitcoin. And when I look at myself, to me, I look like, you know, a normal person. But they think I'm crazy because my actions are so radical. Who's going to take their pension money and put it into Bitcoin?

You know, people don't dare. Yeah, right. Crazy people like that. Yeah. Exactly. Because we see the long-term game and we understand the systems. Plus, we don't care about the whole show. By the way, that TV show was about the yield.

Like just looking at framing Bitcoin as an investment asset and that's it. You know, this is the whole 40, minutes were about, is this a legitimate investment asset? Yes or no? That's the question that this show was coming to answer. And I was talking about how this is money and this is going to replace the existing system. And that was like, my ideas were like complete woo-woo in that show. Yeah, that's too far away on the Yovarton window, even for 90% of the Bitcoiners. I agree. Came on you for bringing that kind of wisdom into me. mainstream TV. Like, of course they're going to say you're crazy.

Oh, yeah. And people, some people in the comments, they tell me, look at this idiot that put her pension money in Bitcoin. Look at her now. She must be crying. And I'm like, yeah, right. I sleep so well at night, you know. That's a good segue into the next topic, because I recently watched your episode with Luke DeVolf, which was really good, by the way. We have seen all the recent debacle with the BIP 110 and the chain split that happened. It was a disaster in some senses. I wrote an ARCO recently in Portuguese, giving my view of the topic.

I said basically that I wanted to agree and respect the viewpoint of all the B-point-tenners and the Nauts guys, because I see the problems in Bitcoin Core. I also read the Haudenot articles, and I'm very concerned about that. But at the same time, I think Luke and the other guys, they went too fast and too careless about the way they implemented in Letcher, change split. Of course, it wouldn't get consensus. So let's talk about core for a little bit.

I understand everything that you just said about the Fiat system has been brought into the core, and the incentives are to enslaveness. and it looks like, for me, my interpretation is that as the Fiat system goes towards collapse and is heading there inevitably, that is just too big and unpaidable, they see as the only exit, the only way through so they can remain in power is to enslave us with CBDC, with mass surveillance, social credit scoring, all the 2030 agenda. At the same time, I think it's unlikely, I would like to think that it's unlikely. I would like to think that is unlikely that you're going to succeed. I don't know.

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dotio bar better money. Do you see core as being co-opted and potentially a big problem for, I don't know, five years ahead or something like maybe tap route was a mistake, maybe something that we are proving now, maybe the op return limit removal is a mistake. Do you see any kind of risk that we are being destroyed from the inside with the Trojan horse kind of aspect? Yeah, I actually, I do. I do. I am quite vigilant. And since I came

to Bitcoin from like a freedom movement red peel background, meaning I've seen like many other scams and corruptions before I actually got into the money. I gained a little bit of experience in connecting the dots and seeing the patterns and looking at who's pulling the strings. I also had on my show, as you may also had, Simon Dixon, for example, which I very much appreciate his critical view of the power structures and how there are various facets of power that are ultimately just seeking more control and more power. And there are constant dynamism of pulling the strings of power between the different facets. And I think that Bitcoin being a very valuable technology asset protocol, as we just mentioned, this is not lost on the powers that shouldn't be.

They know that Bitcoin is very powerful. They are, they understand. Yeah. You see the obscene emails. If you need a proof, you have it, right? But, you know, I don't need a proof. I know that they're not stupid. I know that some of the people that are designing those future forward agendas that we are all living in,

most of us without knowing, are very smart because I read their plans or I read their documents that they release. And I see the mind control, the psychological operations that they're running. It's incredible, like really smart people. And again, I come from that background. And I know that most people would say, you know, marketing is like, it's commercial, but what is marketing in the end of the day? You're trying to influence someone's perception, right, to take an action. So there's a lot of psychology.

There's a lot of game theory in marketing. There's a lot of different disciplines in there that give me a lot of skills and a lot of ways to see things. And the way I'm looking at Bitcoin now and the protocol with all of its layers, I suspect that there are several layers that are more vulnerable than others to be centralized and to be co-opted or controlled. Of course, mining, but specifically mining pools and the fact that we have so few and the power lies in such a monopoly of miners that came together. That is a risk, because if our protocol is supposed to be decentralized,

centralized and it's being secured thanks to that decentralization, then that's a weak point. Then core, the developers, and that's why I was probing Luke so many times during that interview about the size and the structure of the core governance body. And we know that there are only five maintainers, four or five, right? I don't know what Luke's status is now. he used to be one of them, right? The maintainer to be in charge of the BIPs in general. Now he's left.

And he was very different than the other ones. And then the other ones are being paid for by two, three organizations. Chain code, blink, and something else. Bring chain code and there's another one. By the way, chain code is money from Wall Street, right? which is kind of weird. Like these guys from Wall. It's a guy from Wall Street.

The founders are from Wall Street, Hudson River trading. Basically, they made fortune on Wall Street and decided to become Bitcoiners and fund developers, which is really, really suspicious. Right. There are many ties that tie

Bitcoin money, like donations and funders, to Wall Street or to Big Tech, right, to the PayPal Mafia and the tech bros, that we are already seeing nowadays how they are intertwined into the U.S. government in order to bring about a technocratic, you know, technocratic ruling, I would say. Okay. So back to core, you have a few of, you know, you have only a few sources of funding. And then you have a new consortium that just announced itself, the security consortium by nine big companies.

You could tie them in between Wall Street and tech, right? And they're bringing a lot of Fiat, $15 million, I think, to fund developers, right? And the guy that's going to manage that consortium is the same guy that's managing core. Right? What's his name? I forget his name. I forget his name. I can check later.

And to me, it's a warning sign. And that guy, you know, I'm not saying anything about him. It may be the best guy ever. I don't know him. And I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to say anything that I have not looked deep into. But just the fact that it's the same guy that's. already has the responsibility of managing teams inside of core and, you know, being so involved in that, now has the oversight on $15 million to fund more developers.

This is a concentration of too much power in the hands of one person. And that guy, God bless him, you know, when they announced that, he straightaway put a post on Twitter and said just to give a heads up to everyone. Yes, I am doing this and now that too. And I know this may look fishy, but I want to make it clear that this is a volunteering job and I'm not getting any money for it. And he has to defend himself because it is a problematic situation. And he understands that. If it wasn't problematic, he wouldn't have to say anything. But this is a problem, in my opinion. So the incentives are broken, right?

Sorry? The incentives are completely broken. Right. And then let's look at the fact that, you know, those nine companies that came together, including BlackRock, including, you know, fidelity and many others, they clearly have an incentive to launch more ETFs, more stocks for their companies. We know what their incentives are and who they need to appease. They need to appease their shareholders.

They need to appease the stock exchange. They work by specific rules that are not Bitcoin rules. They're Fiat rules. So, yeah, I understand they gave a little bit of money and put it aside, and it's not their main business, it's not their core thing. But that's how they get a seat at the table. you can say. And you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that everything we're seeing right now,

about a week or two weeks after they announced the security consortium was an attack, a multi-vector attack on security of Bitcoin. And we have saviors at the gates because they were just put there. And I'm sorry, I know I'm a conspiracy theorist. I don't give a fuck. But those things are just so, they're so close. The timing is so weird. Like now we have these new heroes that with money, with funding, with backing for security of Bitcoin.

And then we have this security crisis of Bitcoin. Exactly. It's almost as if they want. And they can be the new heroes, you know. It's almost as if they want it to be obvious. So we know there's something going on. but without being able to prove it. Because if you think that no, Bitcoin is not under attack in any circumstances,

then you need to believe that Larry Fink, out of nowhere, after a decade talking shit about Bitcoin, decided to sit down, steady on top of his pile of billions of dollars. He decided to study Bitcoin and understand money and then become a netbook for Bitcoin. And then he asked for the ETF. And then Trump had a sudden enlightenment and became a Bitcoin. corner and all he's done since he is in offices pumping, dumping,

dumping, and scheming and everything that's wrong and not pushing. He's everything out of a bit pointer. Come on. Exactly. Then you have to believe that all the money flowing from Wall Street to core developers and the weird stuff that Luke Dash Jr. has denounced, there's nothing there. Look the other way.

Then you have to believe that the security consort, out of nowhere, led to by coincidence, attacks, exploiting vulnerabilities at Cold Card and all the other softwares. I had a, there was a conference here last week in Paraguay and I gave a keynote and I said, okay, Bitcoin is still decentralized and secure. Let's leave aside the fact that they are probably aiming to attack that, but that's a long-term play. What they can do, they can attack the borders.

So they can attack the hardware wallets. can attack every single point of failure, every single point that users that are defending themselves that value your mission, your sovereign, individual sovereignty that do self-custody, are depositing any sort of trust to scare them, scare the masses. And a lot of people, by the way, probably lost money with the MK3s and say, okay, fuck this. I'm not going to do self-custody anymore. I'm going to buy the black quark ETF. It looks to me that their goal, there are two goals, probably. like short term, let's concentrate the most amount of Bitcoin in IOUs. So we'll have the UTXOs.

Everybody else will have IOUs and that's it. Eventually, that will lead to criminalize in self-custody. But on the other side, what I fear the most is the fact that there might be implementing changes to the code to make it more centralized and impossible for us to run nodes and still keep fighting, right? As we saw a preview now with Bitcoin 10, the guys who did the chain split, if they had sold their original Bitcoin and bought the pure Bitcoin, the individual sovereignty Bitcoin, as they claimed, they would get completely fucked and destroyed financially.

So is there a hope? In other words, my question for you is, if Bitcoin fails, how does it fail? Does it get destroyed or does it get co-opted and become like digital gold and nobody is able to use it freely anymore. I'm almost 100% sure that it will be co-opted and not destroyed. It's too valuable to destroy. It's too good.

It will be co-opted, but it's a long, like you said, it's marathon. It's a long process. And by the way, I think the BIP 110 had such a good intention. It's like the whole movement of people saying, you know, we do not want Bitcoin to be compromised, the operative to be opened. We don't want to be a database of data and not monetary data and transactions. We want to keep this as intended. that that's where the people that wanted to do B-Pointean come from. And I appreciate that so much because that is the immune response,

not the fact that, you know, it didn't work. But the fact that those people stood up and said, you know, I'm taking a stand with how I run my node, with how I, you know, this is, it's legitimate. It's possible they can do it. They did it. And it's great. I think the fact that.

those experiments are happening and that the system and the protocol and the community is experiencing things like that is healthy. And we are, and the main reason why this is healthy is that this is not going to be the last time or attack on Bitcoin, the last time that Bitcoin gets attacked. It has been attacked many times before. It will continue to be attacked by various, entities, whether we know who they are or not, whether we are right or wrong about our speculations on who is, you know, doing things and why, because we are speculating. Whether it is from, you know, stupidity, malice, you know, intentions or whatever, it is going to happen many more times and we do need people that care so much that they are willing to

learn a new change and understand what kind of actions they need to take if that happens and then engage in a campaign, in a communications campaign so that other people will understand it. You know how hard it, you know, as a marketeer speaking about this, how hard it is in such a short period of time to create awareness in an effective way that will also make people change their minds about something or learn something new and then also take action inside what they've learned. This is almost impossible. This was done in a few months. I believe that this was why it was probably not successful. Only the crazy ones that, you know, were willing to kind of

die on the heel were like, okay, we're going to we're going to go with that. And by the way, I hated seeing how brutal the infighting was. I think it was, for me, it was the first real. Yeah, the first real conflict I have seen inside a Bitcoin, I was, to be honest, I was disappointed because, you know, I thought Bitcoiners being relatively based and stuff would be a little bit more compassionate and more humane to each other and also try to really remember that we're all in the same team.

and that we want to, we want this thing to win. And people were very mean to each other. I had to mute a lot of people that I love on Twitter, on X, just because I couldn't see how they are talking to other people. It was really nasty. So, yeah, so going back to your question, I think it will be a gradual salami system co-option, you know, slice by slice.

It's a protocol. We have a lot of vulnerable. that can be compromised. And they will try to do that. And I think it's up to us, each one of us in their own fields of expertise, in how we recruit ourselves to be that immune system for Bitcoin. Is it through our voice and our podcasts or is it through the code we write? Is it through the campaigns we participate in or whatever we're good at?

Each one of us can do stuff. But we definitely have to be active. And I totally, totally agree with Luke, who said in the end of the episode that the biggest risk to Bitcoin is if we are apathetic and if we don't take any action and we just think, oh, we've already won. It's done. No, no, no. I agree with him totally. I was sad to watch as well how it developed. I think I've had many discussions.

Unfortunately, I don't know many Nauts guys here, especially in the Brazilian community, but I had many discussions with both sides of the argument, and I read the Haudenot articles, and I was extremely concerned, like I would say, much more concerned than most people were after reading it. I understand the points. I agree with Jack Cruz on a lot of his,

on his keynote in Prague, and I see the problems in Bitcoin Core, which deeply concerns me. But every time I had a discussion with many developers or people who are more technical than me, they always brought it more to the technical aspects and how Luke's proposal, Luke dash junior, I mentioned it, proposal was kind of flawed from the beginning because it was very concentrated within him, and it was irresponsible to do it so prematurely. I do understand with that, I do agree with those viewpoints. I think it was premature. It was kind of a tactical error in execution.

But I agree with the problem. Like I see the core problem and I see how it develops into something more complicated in the long term that most people I would think they don't understand. Because as I was seeing in Brazil advance more and more into totalitarian state with communism, with cultural Marxism. And I had learned in school and in society that communism has failed when the Berlin Wall fell. Right. At some point back in 2018, 17, 16, whatever, just before I was learning about Bitcoin,

I watched some documentaries about the whole history of Brazil and the whole history of socialism and Marxism, the Bolshevik revolution, how that the idea of implementing socialism through revolution, failed with the Berlin Wall and URS, USSR in English. But at some point with Gramsci and the Frankfurt School and all the cultural Marxism aspect was implemented, and I see that in Brazil right now. I see the wokeism as a symptom of that. And when I read the Haudenot articles, for me it was obvious.

Okay, Bitcoin is under attack. And people told me, no, I wouldn't get that. concerned about the fact that some of the core developers are woke and they have the feelings fighting thing. I said, no, man, that's why are you wrong? Because I would get extremely concerned because that's kind of a societal cancer. Maybe it's a disease in your brain, basically. When somebody disagrees with you, like Luke Dash Jr. probably disagreed with Gloria

Zhao and many others in discussions about the protocol. They immediately frame you as the enemy because you have. have a viewpoint that's misogynistic, that's racist, that's whatever. And then they cancel you. They expel you from their inner circle. And they are thinking they are noble and they're doing good. But at the same point, they're serving a bigger agenda. And maybe they are willing, like they think they're doing good.

But they are leading Bitcoin into a dangerous path in the future. That's my main concern. I think there are two points here to what you said. One is that there are. behavior, like the, it's just not acceptable that there are certain codes of conduct that need to be in place in a community that relies on open source contribution. And, you know, and clearly that wasn't there with some of the things that were done. And many people, even the ones that were anti-BB.10 and supporting court were also saying that, that there were things that were not right that we need to look at. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, although I personally do not subscribe in any way to woke ideology, you know, like the furthest away from it, but because I have a freedom, and I do support people's right to exercise whatever they want in their lives, I would say, I can be okay with developers or in this. instance we're talking about the developers it can be any type of role takers in the protocol but let's say developers they can be they can hold whatever political or you know social ideology that they want I don't care as long as their conduct when it comes to the protocol that they are dealing with is not compromised if it's

Because, you know, their behavior outside of Bitcoin, do whatever you want. You know, but when a developer sits there and says, you know, that she doesn't give an F about shitcoins coming into Bitcoin. And for her, it's all the same. And the maxis are this and that. It's like, this is important because this is what you do. You're supposed to be like a sentinel, like a protector of Bitcoin, right? And if you are standing there saying the gates open, the party's on, anyone can come into Bitcoin.

And I'm one of those people that write this code. So I could potentially enable that. That is a problem. Right. So I don't care about what she does in her private life or he or she, whatever. I don't care. But the moment their conduct is inappropriate to the values, not of life, the values of the protocol. And the protocol is supposed to be leaning on the values of permissionless money,

you know, no third party. This is monetary, peer to peer. Like, it's very basic principles of the white paper, right? Go back there. If you're not grounded in those principles, then I have a problem with you, right? That's the problem I have. So it's not personal. It's about the values and the basic principles of Bitcoin, the protocol, all the way down to the white paper. I do 100% agree. I think that was a battle that was lost in a much longer war. And that's why I'm sorry that I'm interrupting you that I also told, Luke, you know, there is a problem also with the, how do you call it, the, when you designate the next person,

I forgot the word in English. The next person that will come after you, when you leave the position, you're the one. She's able to choose whoever's supposed to be. You're the one to choose whoever will come after you. Why is that so? Why is there no like committee of developers? If there are hundreds or thousands of Bitcoin core contributors and developers out there, why is there no voting?

Why is there no, I don't know, like a committee or something? That's one person choosing the, oh, successor, that's the word I was looking for, choosing their successor, right? It doesn't make sense. So there are various things in the governance structure that I think we should stop as a community and put more attention to and voice our opinions about because this is ours as much as it is theirs, you know, it's Bitcoin is, everything. everyone's.

Let's wrap up the Bip one thing. I think a lot of Cora defenders are going to be pissed off at me, but it's their problem. I'm sorry. I apologize for ruining Europe. They're going to piss off at you as well, no problem. Oh, I know they'll be pissed up with me, but I don't care about me. I care about you. Yeah, I don't care either.

So I just have my opinion and I, at some point, decided to start recording my opinion, and that's what I do. And it's been very helpful. helpful in my journey and helped other people so you don't care if you have something to say, just say it in the comments. If you're rude, I'm going to block you, whatever. Basically, I think, yeah, we are under attack. We're going to see further developments of that. It's going to become more obvious.

I want to talk a little bit about Michael Saylor because as many Bitcoiners, as most Bitcoiners, I used to worship Michael Saylor. I don't think that that guy can simulate that kind of conviction. that he had in several thousand hours of podcasts and become a maxi and document his journey and he opened his perspective in many, many hours of content that was like mind-blowing. But I see a new Michael Saylor right now.

Like if I compare the sailor from 2020 towards 2024, whatever, and the sailor of now, there are two different people. He became a Fiat Maxi. He's basically going online and saying, that Bitcoin is not money anymore because it's never going to be medium exchange. Like what the fuck is that? Like what happened to Saylor? Did he get co-opted as well?

Did he get any compromised videos in the in the apps and crew? What the hell happened? Because I used to admire the guys so much and what he's doing now with the STRC and MSTR and everything else. And the key notes that he gives, they are completely going to the different path. It's not pro-Bitcoin anymore. It's kind of weird. Do you have any thoughts on that?

So first of all, I don't know the answer. I can only speculate once again, but it's totally different. And I think we're not the only ones to notice that. I think the community feels that. I think those who are heavily invested in treasury companies are not really noticing that yet. and I think they will at one point. Parker Lewis is doing a great job. Oh, Parker is amazing.

Yeah. So I think that, to be honest, I think that Michael was saying that also very early on, but we couldn't hear it. He was very delicate and, you know, sophisticated in how he conveyed that message and he kind of stayed away from the meteor, of exchange versus a store of value conversation for a long time.

And he did put the emphasis on store of value for a long time. And also he talked about, if you remember, right at the beginning, a good money has to first base itself as a store of value before it can reach the medium of exchange stage. Actually, today I listen to safety in the months. Sorry? Mrs. Mrs. Mises said that.

Mrs. Mises said that. Mrs said that in some book, I don't remember which exactly. Right. But it makes a lot of sense. As long as people are getting paid in Fiat, they're going to spend their Fiat first because they're selfish. They are not thinking, I'm going to pay this tax and rebying the Bitcoin just to make a circular economy happen faster. Like, I'm going to store the money that's more valuable and I'm going to spend the shitty money first.

I do understand that that's inevitable. Right. So there's a difference between looking at them, discerning them in stages versus saying, It's only that. Exactly. Medium of exchange just is not valid for Bitcoin anymore, which is what he's saying today, right? He's saying only, what's it called this? It looks like a meme.

The name of this R-S-S-P-R-C-X-U-A-S. Elon had a child and named it. Yeah, what the fuck. It looks like a robot name. Anyway, his new money is basically. basically a stock. Like he's saying, let's have more fiat, more paper on top of Bitcoin,

on top of Bitcoin, on top of a layer of credit over credit, over credit, over credit, over Bitcoin, and call that money. And we just look at him, we go, but why? But we have money already. Bitcoin is money. But why are you doing all of that?

It's not necessary, right? So there's definitely a change here. from saying, oh, we'll look at medium of exchange later to saying we don't need Bitcoin's medium of exchange ever. We just need it as a store of value so that we can build more Fiat on top of it. So there is a change of tune for sure. I don't know why. And I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's serving his interests and his company. I know that he's a very avid bitcoiner and that his life is about Bitcoin, is very passionate about Bitcoin,

but clearly it's not the same role that is fulfilling for the community that he did before. I don't think he's the ambassador that we needed externally. Right now, what I'm seeing, the trajectory or the trend that is happening is creating the landscape

to accept stable coins as the next, money, digital money, which we talked about all the time. It was like it's going to be either CBDC or stablecoins or Bitcoin, depending on where you are at the world, but Bitcoin like heavily KYC'd and identified. Then it falls in the bus in the bucket of stable coins and CBDCs. And so in the United States, the push for stable coins is very strong. And he's talking about that as well.

And he's issuing one of those stable coins. So his new instrument, that robot name, is actually a stable coin on top of Bitcoin. Because that's what the legislation is now being pushed for. You know, this is what's going to start popping in the United States more and more. And then you're going to see more and more Western countries mimicking that move, creating more stable coins in their countries. and then starting to gaslight everyone with saying, you know, oh, but there is competition.

We're opening the market for stable coins. Anyone can do it. Now, if you're a big supermarket, you can issue a stable coin. If you're a credit card company, if you're a bank, if you're this. And everyone's going to come out with their digital money, and they're going to gaslight the public to say, you see, we're creating competition. It's good.

It's like they can give you yield on the stable coin and you'll get your three or four percent. It will be like that. And people will have this renewed, excitement about this new digital money that is coming into play, which is basically just sucking them into this black hole of, of, you know, the digital panopticon. Because it's, yeah, it may not be called the CBDC, but it's very similar to it. It's like the Oprah Winfrey meme that everybody has a many printer and all. So basically everybody gets a money printer. So if you're Walmart, you have one. If you're the U.S. government, you have one. If you're the U.S. you have one.

So it's kind of a delusion that they're going to try to sell the masses that now it's more decentralized and it's revolutionary because blockchain, but at the same point, everybody's going down the same rabbit hole and towards the same path, which is buying treasury bonds and financing the state and getting diluted and debased. So slavery remains. Yes. It doesn't solve the problem. Just like more competition, more fierce competition between whoever gets a money printer

and they want to print more and get more demand. 100%. Oh, I always say that the digital money era that we're stepping into is just Fiat on steroids. That's what it is. It's just digital. So it's easier to enforce to play with everything is going to be tokenized. The word tokenize is going to come out of your ears from how much you're going to hear it, propaganda marketing-wise.

Everything is going to be tokenized. It's going to be a disaster, really. Like, in my opinion, I hate it. Like, I hate watching it. But that's, I guess that we need to go lower. We need to go there for people to understand what kind of, again, slavery system. They are inscribing themselves to without seeing the exit. So I think there is a, there was something I wanted to say and I forgot.

It will pop. It was about Sailor and the propaganda. Let me think for a second. you can edit this later. No, I don't edit anything. I'll just put the last announcement and I'll do the highlights and that's it. So take your time. People are going to watch it.

Okay. No, I was thinking there was something about the. Oh, yeah. Okay. I remember. So one thing is the push of stable coins. The other thing is the intentional confluence. of crypto and Bitcoin.

This is intentional. This is, this has been done before. But when Sailor was quote unquote on our team, he, he was making sure to correct people and tell them what's the difference between Bitcoin and crypto, right? Now, if you pay attention, he does that all the time. He's like, I haven't noticed because I have stuff watching. Crypto assets, you know, this is good for. crypto, da-da-da-da.

It's intentional. And again, this is my, my intuitive marketing brain that just identifies the narratives that are building the, like the rhetoric that is going to build the narrative that they will build on for their propaganda or their campaigns. And the rhetoric is such that you, as the 90 plus percent of people that have no idea what money is, they will conflate crypto and Bitcoin. And they'll just look at everything in the same box and go, yeah, this is great. Like they're all putting their stamp on it.

The experts said yes. The Wall Street said yes. The Black Rocks are, you know, they're encouraging their customers to invest. invest in Bitcoin through Ibit and everything is hunky and and people don't know the difference. And then the legislation is coming out from the U.S. is a legislation for digital assets. And then Israel is doing the same. I'm in Israel right now. They're doing the same thing.

They're doing a legislation working on trying to convince the government to do legislation for digital assets, crypto and Bitcoin together. There is, it's blurring the line. so that we can co-op Bitcoin in that way, too, the public perception. That's another vector that is open for, is very vulnerable. Let me ask you one thing, because what I'm concluding from all this is basically, unless you're crazy Bernardo or Efrat, the crazy Maxi, who is a Freedom Maxi, and it's completely intransigent.

and doesn't believe most people doesn't deposit trust and the experts. And it's very skeptical about everything, which is a small minority of mankind. I would say it's less than 1% of people. Is there any hope for mankind or like salvation is completely individual? And if only the more skeptical, hardcore maxis are going to run their nodes and do self-custody no matter what, even if they're persecuted and they have to move countries,

they have to hide in the woods and live off grid. How does this play out in 10 years, like after the 2030? Are we going to be able to live passively and raise our kids? Or are we just going to live through a fucking nightmare forever and eventually lose? What do you see happening? Yeah. So I am a very optimist person. I'm hopeful.

And I think that, as I said, I started this. this new career of my new chapter in my life in service of humanity because I knew how hard this decade's going to be. And this is part of it. What's happening now? Bitcoin, this is part of it. And so we are, yeah, we're at the head of the spear. The ones that are noticing everything. Let me stop it there and make another question. Do you think it's going to get much, much harder for how long. My intuition says that we're getting to the worst phases. We're not there yet.

It's going to get worse, but it's going to be fast. Yeah, I believe the next two to three years are going to be very, very bleak. And then probably by the end of the decade, we are going to start building again. Building as a society, because we are already building, right? The crazy people are already building. But we're the very early adopters. And I think after those two, three years, people are going to come out of big crises, ricked. People are going to lose a lot of money.

People are going to lose their homes. People are going to, you know, they're going to be victims of wars, of, you know, emergencies, conflicts, whatever they're going to throw at us. And they will throw more stuff at us. And most people will not be prepared for that. and it's going to be ugly and we're going to be there to help those who are asking for help. And specifically going back to Bitcoin, I think that we are just seeing things from the very zoomed in perspective that we're in right now.

And we are, you and I, you know, in the past hour, we've been identifying all these small things that have been happening, the hacks, we've been speculating, we see all the problems, we see the vulnerabilities, but if we try to zoom out and look further away into the future, and I know this is for fools because it's very hard to predict, I believe we are stepping into a very special time in which people who appreciate freedom, who appreciate values of sovereignty and, you know, liberty, et cetera, they will, they will work so hard to create that reality for them and it will magnetize many other people around them, whether in Bitcoin or outside of Bitcoin and there will be a pool of people to new places.

Like we're already starting to see. Central America is such a place, you know, there are bubbles of that kind of activity happening also in some place around Europe or in Africa or in Southeast Asia. It's very small, but I think it's going to happen more and more. And I think people eventually, you know, if I'm judging, for example, what's happening in Canada or in Israel, where I am, people that have the means, they're fleeing their countries. They don't want to stay anymore.

Supposed to be Western, supposed to be, you know, advanced, progressive. It's shit. just like you were talking about Brazil before, right? So they're leaving and looking to better their lives. And even if people don't know why exactly it's hard for them or it's bad, like I was crazy enough to go research about the World Health Organization and the money and the Bitcoin and all that stuff, most people don't do that. They just know that they cannot survive anymore under those circumstances and they want out.

And that's enough to start a movement. and many people move. So I think we're going to see a lot of changes, a lot of shifts. And what gives me hope is the fact that people are learning about what's happening, educating themselves, and they are willing to be flexible. They're willing to take a change, to take an action that will be a positive change for their lives because most people are stuck. Energetically, they're stuck.

And it's very hard for them to make any change in their lives. You're talking to them about change. Like you're telling them buy some Bitcoin. They go, are you crazy? Like, and that's something really small. So talk to them about changing a country. It's insane. And I'm not saying not everyone has to.

People have their own personal conditions. It's a very individual decision. But in general, any change you want to instill in your life is a hard thing to do. So that's what we need to practice on. That's where I draw my hope from. When I am surrounded by, other like-minded people who are willing to adapt, to take steps in their lives, to make changes, to discover something new, to get used to it, you know, this is all about integration and adaptation.

And it stems from integrity, like a very deep integrity to who they are and their values. That gives me a lot of hope. And I see a lot of those people. When I travel around, when I get to all those amazing places, I meet those people. And I thank them. Some of them I interview for my podcast and I thank them from the bottom of my heart because they inspire me. They inspire me to keep going because it's not easy, not for me, not for anyone. And so, yeah, I do have hope.

And I want people not to lose hope. It brings you back to life and it charges you up, right, to go to this conference and spend time with these people. and reach out and talk to them and be amongst them because otherwise sometimes it gets lonely and it feels like you're in a losing battle because you're just on Twitter and they're infighting each other. And it sounds very depressing.

But yeah, that's why I said, I always say to all my clients and the audience, go to Bitcoin conferences. It doesn't matter if it's sets that you're wasting because you're not keeping them. It doesn't matter if you're too concerned about your privacy, No, because the most people are doing is building your community. Yeah, exactly.

That's where you meet them. I was going to say something as well. Bernardi, you know, when I was in Prague, I met this French guy 20-something years old. I was at the Devs conference one day before BTC Prague. And he came over and he said, I don't know him. He said, can I give you a hug? He had this massive smile. I said, of course.

He said, I love your podcast. Thank you so much. And I said, what do you mean? No problem. and what's your name? And he started talking. And he said, you should know that I am here because of you. And I said, what do you mean here in Prague?

And he said, no, no, no. Like here doing what I'm doing. I said, why? Tell me. And he said, I started listening to your podcast. And then you talked about Bitcoin all the time. So I bought Bitcoin for the first time. And then I continued going down my journey, my rabbit hole.

And you kept on talking about Noster. You talked about Noster, Noster, Noster. or so. I checked out Noster. And you know what I do now? I'm a full-time developer on Noster. That's his job in a company. And he makes money out of that. And he was so happy. And I didn't even know, right? So, you know, you meet those people. And it's just like, it's the world. And people are willing to make changes and to be open and to learn. It's fantastic. In a way, after one hour talking to you, it got bleak at some points and people might be watching this and think, oh, maybe Bitcoin is going to lose. Maybe we're all going to be slaves and there's no hope.

But the only thing you've got to do is protect your rights to self-custody Bitcoin and not get debased and not get censored and be able to use your money. There's nothing else you need to do. But it sounds simple, but it's not as simple because your government might criminalize it. It might censor it. It might put all kinds of obstacles along the way. It might close its borders. The supermarket might have empty shells. So you need to think about everything else, like a freedom and sovereignty protocol for your life and your family,

in order to keep your Bitcoin towards the next 10 years because on the other side, what I'm thinking, you're probably believing and I also believe in is the fact that the thesis from the book, the sovereign individual is true and it's playing out in real time. And on the other side of the eye of the hurricane, we're going to have this emerging class of new sovereign individuals that they're going to be able to live freely, much more freely than any other people have ever lived in the past. Would you say that is the case? I think so.

So my keynote at BTC Prague was called the sovereign individual, and I spoke for close to half an hour about that thesis. And I have built a framework to show how sovereignty plays out in the three layers of our lives, physical, digital, and spiritual. And there's a big diagram. I can give you the link to that keynote so people can go watch it. Okay. I'll put it here.

But you can put that there so they can see, you know, my thesis. But basically, I believe that if you don't first and foremost look at your identity, who you are, what you stand for, what you care about, what your values are, then it's going to be very easy to destabilize you in life. And then you're going to be prone to compromise a lot easier than other people. So we were talking about many vulnerabilities here. and we talked about security of Bitcoin, but take all that stuff we said and adapt it to yourself. You know, you are vulnerable too. You have security issues as well.

You can be compromised. You have an incentive structure. There is an angle that someone can bend your elbow far enough that you'd go, stop, I'll do it, right? So how far would you go? And so I urge people to start there because if you don't know yourself and you don't know what you care about, what your mission is, what your vision is,

if you've never taken the time to sit down and write those things and really think about it and give it the time of day to look into who you are, what your gifts are to this world, and how do you exercise those gifts? How do you fulfill your potential to the max? And are you fulfilled with what you're doing, right? So that's like the spiritual layer of being a sovereign person.

because then you can be free here. Like your mind can be free. You don't have to, you know, you were saying before, oh, they're going to be upset with us because we talk about Bitcoin. I don't give a fuck, right? People can say whatever they want about me. It will not stop me in what I care about

and what is important for me. And then the second layer, digital, on the digital front, it's more than just Bitcoin. Bitcoin takes care of the money, but what about all the rest of the tools that you want to start embracing digitally in your life in order to be secure and safe

and protect yourself and your family. Because there is a lot of leakage going on if you haven't been noticing lately, right? Your data and details are everywhere out there on the internet for people to trade in. KYC is a real issue. Do you use a, you know, this is like the above phone,

a pixel phone, Graphene OS. Do you use a, AI that is private. I don't yet and I need to. When you run your node, do you use that node also for, first of all, do you use Tor or not?

Are you storing your files on your own device or you're on the cloud, for example, your files, your photos, all that stuff? Like there are so many things you can do digitally to protect yourself. And then physically, it's everything we talked about with like, you know, jurisdictions and countries and choosing the place that will treat you best and that the legislation will be the most favored for you. Like I'll share with you for me, for example, when I'm nomadic now, my goal in the next few years is to settle down somewhere. But I'm looking for the place that will be the best for me.

And it's not an easy decision to make. That keeps changing all the time right now. Oh, yeah. And the way I look at it is I have my own checklist of what are the things that are most important for me in the place I live in. Like, for example, climate is very important to me. I can't be in a cold climate. It's not my DNA. What about my ability to speak freely about my journalism, my topics, my podcast and Bitcoin? Because if I want to live in Bali, which is a place I really love, I have. have to be super careful with how I speak about Bitcoin because I can end up in jail about many other topics as well. Same for Thailand, which are two countries that I love Thailand and Bali.

And I cannot live there because of these things because I, you know, I will not sell out on my freedom of speech and the way I can I can talk. And this is also my career. So I'm looking at countries in which I won't be a danger for exercising my right to speak or to. We're going to I'm going to build a citadel here in Paraguay, so you're welcome to... Right, Paraguay, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama. There are quite a few places that I'm looking at to test out and see if I like them, right? And so you each, you got to build your own individual checklist. If you have kids and family, then you need to take care of education.

You need to take care of other stuff that I don't have at the moment. I mean, I do have a son, but it doesn't live with me. So, you know, it's not easy, but that physical layer of sovereignty is a very, very important one. Have more than one citizenship, if you can, like a passport. But if you can't have two passports, at least have another residency somewhere. That when shit hits the fan, you can go somewhere else quite quickly and don't start fiddle around with the process of asking for permission, right? So having more than one jurisdiction you can live in is very important. Even if you're not doing, you're not making a move.

It's still important. So take care of that too. Yeah. Bank accounts, you know, all that shit, you know, it's important. And that's exactly what we do here because I always keep saying that in a way Bitcoin has already won. But us Bitcoiners haven't because they're going to come after our Bitcoin. So if you keep your Bitcoin, then you win. So we're still in the, they fight your stage, but Bitcoin has already won.

So in order for you to win, you have to build all your sovereignty protocols to be able to survive with your UKXOs for the next five to 10 years. Then you come out, Victoria is in sovereign, the other side. 100%. Which is challenging. It sounds challenging at times. Sorry? It sounds very challenging at times because you get tested. Yeah. Well, it's not easy to be honest.

I don't find it easy. It takes work. How come you became so crazy about freedom? Because you probably wasn't like that 10 years ago. I know that the COVID turned you, but like what switch changed? What a radical idea. Yeah, you said like fuck it.

I'm going to win this war or I'm going to die in battle. Yeah. It was gradual. I think, dude when they got into my private life and said you know you have to take this vaccine bullshit if you don't do that then you can't work you can't do that you can't go there you can't go here you're a second class citizen I said you know what bringing on I they didn't fire me and and I didn't lose my job it I only stopped working later but it was hell I I could

I decided consciously to take the position of being a second-class citizen and feeling what it was like. I wanted to see what it was like because I knew I'm strong. I knew I could do it. And I wanted to see what it was like because I want to see how low they can go and how crazy those people are. And that was wild. I was in the streets once or twice a week at least demonstrating, going to politicians' house with my megaphone yelling at them. Did you go to jail? No, I did not go to jail.

Some of my friends did in some of those demonstrations. They were jailed and then we would go to prison to bring them out like the next, the same night or the next day. But I was not. But what I did endure, because sometimes my son was with me as well, so I had to behave. He was 10 or 11 years old time, but I did endure the police violence. I felt what it's like when the police is turning against you. And I used to be this, you know, low-abiding citizen, paying my taxes, doing everything I had to do as a good citizen, good girl. And all of a sudden, the state is against me.

Like, I'm the state's biggest enemy. And the prime minister goes on primetime TV and says that, you know, that group of people is the enemy is like, it's insane. So that I lost it. I was like burning it on. It pissed me off. Yeah, they kind of woke in the lion in me. I didn't know I would be so passionate about freedom, but I became very, very passionate because of everything I've learned.

And when I started, you know, being an activist, it was only politically and it was like against the government and, you know, you're ruining everything. We're building blah, blah, blah. And then very quickly I was disillusioned to understand that this whole democracy. thing is a, is a theater. And, you know, we saw the next government come in and do the same shit, even though they were from the other side, you know, left versus right. And they were all playing the same game. So once I saw that, I was like, okay, I got it. I understood that lesson as

well. I learned that lesson. You're all pieces of shit. You all need to be in prison for me. I always say that 120 members of parliament in Israel, I believe they all need to be in jail. It doesn't vary a lot in other countries. Brazil is mostly distinct. Yeah, corruption is... A lot of people here, not here, there in Brazil. A lot of my friends, even my parents, they are like, oh, if Lula wins again, then we're

fucked with the son of Bolsonaro. I know. Stop, please stop. My brain is hurting. My mother wants to fly back to Brazil from Paraguay to vote for Bolsonaro because it's her duty as a citizen. Dude, it's just going to get worse. Like, the agenda follows on.

It doesn't matter who wins, who loses. It's all the same fucking theater. And we're going to get enslaved if you play by the rules. Like, just build your own system. 100%. Yeah. So then I transitioned to like COVID demonstrations and

that was even harder. And then I also got a, you know the water cannons of the police one time? No, actually not one time, three times in the demonstrations. I got hit by them. It's very dangerous, actually, but I wasn't hit directly, so I was fine. But, you know, I learned a lot during that time, being on the streets and seeing the police and the politicians.

And poof, I learned from the feat. Did you ever get, did you ever question their path? Like, this is just a losing battle. I might just lay low and do my own thing and not put an axe on my back because I'm fighting proactively fighting the state. Because I know it can get challenging at some point. Even though you're doing this from a very, I don't know, willing to help a posture, you're basically pushing yourself at risk and exposing yourself and talking about it on camera and getting censored and getting persecuted and fighting this. state in getting I'm not

prosecuted on. I'm not I have no not yet not yet legally but like in the next

to 10 years you can get worse I would say like I can't but I have my limits it's a very good question I have my limits there are places

that I will not go and there are things I will not do or not talk about and I have done this once in the past year actually when I was invited

to speak at Tucker Carlson's podcast. He wanted to have a sit down with me for two hours to talk about Israel and stuff. I would never do that because if I did, I would have a total target. I understand. Over my back. And he's also, I don't know, it's controversial, whatever. So it's like there are places where I will not go.

And I know how to say no and I am not, you know, blinded by. about baddles, right? Yeah, and I'm also not blinded by like followers, glory, fame, whatever. You'll be a celebrity. People know you. I don't give a fuck. I don't need that. That's not why I'm doing this.

I'm doing this because I care because I want to build a better life for my son, not because I need the attention on me. It's not about me. So, yeah, I think I know where to say no. I gave you one example, but there are places where I stop. Yeah. Do you have any more time? Like I know I need to let you go, but I wanted to talk about a cold card because we talked

to flying briefly that it was a whole shit show and a disaster. And then I had, I haven't officially get sponsored. I didn't receive one dime from Coin Kite ever. But I was a big fan of the Kinkite hardware wallets. And I recommended it publicly in the channel. And so it was very painful for me because I had to jump in. in and work 24-7 to help people get out of that into safety. And you mentioned that at some point in the past,

you were approached by Klingkeye and they offered you in sponsorship and you had to ditch your sponsor, which are Treasor. And you said no, because mostly of the way they approach you or something like that. Like, can you talk a little bit about your perspective and what happened exactly and what, what feeling led you to saying no to Koynkeye and just sticking with your beliefs and we are partners? First of all, I'm sorry if you were affected and I'm sorry for anyone that got affected. This was such a horrible disaster and I think people, if you were not affected,

and of course if you were, you need to go deeper into learning and protecting your better, which is what I've been doing since it happened. And I've been putting a lot of hours to learn more and to do, you know, to do more. Yeah, there you go. Right. It's so funny with the dice. But yeah, exactly, totally. And I'm really sorry for those who got hurt. And I'm also sorry for, you know, my colleagues and friends in the industry that, like you, that were amazing, that are amazing content creators and podcasters and educators that care about people so much and really recommended something because they want to help, not because they want to hurt anyone. And those things happen.

So it's very important even when you get recommendations to check them, to do your own research and not just take any recommendation. And about myself, I was approached by them to offer me more money than my existing sponsors. answer to take them away and to come instead. And I said, it took me two days to think about it and come back and say no. And the reason I said no was because of the, first of all, intuition, I just felt that it like something wasn't right. And secondly, I was following NVK for a long time.

And sometimes, you know how I told you that during the B.10, you know, conflict now, people are really mean to each other, and that hurts me. Like, I'm a sensitive person. When I see people being so mean to each other or not humane, I, or even if I smell, I feel, I have a tendency to feel energies, even if it's not face to face. And so if I feel something, my intuition says, you know, something's off here or wrong, stay away. I listen.

I listened to that. I listened to my body. And I was following NVK for a long time. And I didn't like it. I felt like he's a bit show off. Yeah, always so sure of himself and speaks like he's the biggest expert. And I like people who are down to earth, eye level, you know, that you can talk to them like you talk to your friend. Like we're not better than each other.

We don't need to read a cool or make other. people smaller in order to feel good. I mean, many people do, but that says something about them. And that's the vibe I got from him. And I was like, no, I don't want to work with people like that. And the team that I work with now in Treasor, I love them. They're awesome. They're such great people. And I know many in the company. And there was never anyone I met at Treasurer that was not like really nice, cool person. And yeah, so I thought about it. And I'm like, what? For more money like yeah sure I want to make money I want to I want to make a living this is my work now this is what I do for a living so it is important for me but again values you remember we talked about

for sovereignty you want to be free here and you don't want to be shackled to incentive this is money is an incentive and I was like no it's not about the money it's about the values of not just loyalty but just the vibe I get from those people who are modest and humane versus working with someone that if he knows best and he's like the biggest expert, he's going to come and tell me how I need to run my show or whatever. And I don't want to do that. Like I will never sell out on my content or my creative decisions for any sponsor, no matter who they are. So I said no. And luckily, you know, it was the right call. And it wasn't long ago. It was a few months ago. So I really dodged the bullet there.

That's really good. Hopefully you keep your intuition very sharp, alert us of the new dangers and perils along the way. And let's do this another time. Let's see how it plays out with the next battle between the Bitcoin Maxis and the Fiat Maxis and the enemy. And let's see what major role Sailor is going to play within the next couple years because it's getting really fishy.

And I... You're going to admit it's interesting. It's juicy. It's not boring, huh? I think Sailor is going to be a big boss in the next level at some point. Like, something is weird. I don't know what the fuck is going on. But it's only going to get more exciting, right?

And we're only going to stay here in battle, alerting people and helping people cross. Exactly. We'll do our part. We're here to hold people hand. I like to say that the world is a gigantic tax farm and we're just the cows and we're the rebellious cows that found a way through the fence to the open side, and we're alerting and letting people, leading people outside. I love it.

So, yeah, if you ever want to come back, my invitation is open. Just let me know, and I'll make sure to see you in the other conferences. Thank you very much for having me, Bernardo. Where do people find your work if they haven't yet? Probably everybody knows of your divorce. Well, you can find me on X or Noster, and I have a blog, which is a frat dot blog, and my podcast, you're the voice. Good.

Okay. Thank you. Bye, guys. See you next time. Thanks for being with us. Please take a minute to give this episode, a like, comment, and subscribe, and hit the notification bell to be notified when I release my next episode. All this really helps me beat the suppression of the algorithms.

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