The Exxon Valdez Oil Spill
00:00I just want someday for there to be a movie where, like, a big city person moves to a small town and finds that it's shit.Welcome to You're Wrong About, the show where we set right what we once got wrong.Oh, we're back to the original town.Yeah, well, I just- I want to give Quantum Leap more of a chance.Hoping that each leap will be the leap home.That's the other Quantum Leap thing.It's like, it's hoping that each You're Wrong About will be the last.I mean, I don't really hope that because I really like making this show with you.
00:38My name's Sarah Marshall and I'm a journalist for The New Republic and BuzzFeed.And I'm currently in a Dunkin' Donuts parking lot in St. John's, Bray, Vermont,because that was the closest place to where I'm staying, where I could find enough reception to have this conversation.Wow. I am Michael Hobbs.I'm a reporter for The Huffington Post and I am cozy in my apartment,which has terrible acoustics as usual.That is the only new thing to report.You need to hang up, you know, some scarves or something.
01:07Just pretend you just have to be like, on Saturday, I will live as Stevie Nicks.And today we're talking about the Exxon Valdez spill.Yes.In the research for this, it was a long time.I was like, oh, it's not that interesting.It's not that interesting.And then I just like hit pay dirt.And I was like, oh, my God.
01:28And then kind of like we were talking about last week, it became this thing where I'm like,we really got this one wrong.Like there's a huge story underneath the Exxon Valdez spill that no one ever talks about.And it took me a while.It took me like a week of reading to find that story.And then once I dug in, it's like everywhere.So I'm also really excited to talk about this.I was biking through downtown Seattle this week, listening to a podcast interview with
01:53one of the survivors of the spill and crying on my bicycle.That sounds dangerous.Drivers were honking at me like on their SUVs.I would just like give me a second, you guys.I was like really, really, really into it.Wow.So yeah, I thought this would be like a fun and jaunty episode about like the destructionof a bunch of marine species, but it turns out it's actually really sad.
02:15Yeah.I will tell you what I know about Exxon Valdez because I knew in my heart that there wouldbe something weird at the center of this.I couldn't imagine what it was, but I just, I knew that it wasn't going to be as easyand breezy of a topic as I sort of understand it to be.Because my whole sense of it is that I just don't even know enough about it to ask questions.What I know it as is there was an oil tanker in the early 90s.That is wrong.
02:42It's 1989.But keep going.So I'm already wrong.I guess in terms of what decade it happened in and had a crash or a leak due to practicesthat I imagine were later determined to be not ideal and that it inspired like greenpeas to get more powerful or environmental reforms maybe.What it's really synonymous with in my head is images of all the animals with oil allover them, all these animals kind of suffering in this public way that inspired us to make
03:15maybe as a culture be like, oh, there are repercussions to the massive scale of toxicmaterial that we're trying to move around.My resolution for this episode was not to complain about the media, but one of the thingsI think is really interesting about this is how deep those images went.Those birds and the seals, that's what's seared into my brain from this too is those blackbeaches with these birds that are so covered with oil that they don't even look like birds,right?It looks like fur because all the feathers are stuck together.
03:44And there's like limping and trying to fly and they're way down and it's just absolutelyheartbreaking.That's what I remember about this too.I remember watching the news.I just remember how the country stopped for like a long time to look at this.I remember this being something that like my parents were like, hey, hey, hey, let'seat dinner in front of the TV, which we never did.But I remember like weeks or a week of like every night, it was like, we learned something
04:10new about the Exxon about these bill, let's cover this a little bit more.Yeah.And so I'm curious about to start with what was your understanding at the time of howthis had happened and like, did you have a sense of somebody being at fault?So the original story of this was basically that there's a boat that leaves the coastof Alaska and right after it leaves, it hits a reef and there's a giant gash in the middleof the ship.And so as we all remember from Titanic, many ships have like different containers within
04:43them. And if some critical mass of them floods, then the whole boat sinks.I can keep our flood with four containers breached, but not five, not five.Oil tankers are exactly the same thing.There's like, I forget what it is, but it's something like there's like 11 containersand five of them were ripped open or six of them or something like that.So it's like the majority of them, but it's not all of them.So basically, just after midnight, March 24, 1989, this boat leaves the coast of Alaskawith a ton of filled, filled with oil, and it goes out of the shipping lane.
05:17There's kind of like a specific way that it's supposed to be going.It's on its way to Long Beach, California, where it's going to offload all this oil.And it leaves the shipping lane and hits this reef that is very shallow and just gashes openthe whole thing and oil just starts shooting out of this thing.So it ends up being 11 million gallons of oil.But there's like, there's different accounts and there's different like you readdifferent numbers in different places and it changes all the time.And I also think one of the weird media aspects of this, too, is these giant numbers,
05:50like 11 million gallons of oil.Right. Sounds like a lot.But is that a lot?Is that like a day worth of oil or a week or a minute or?Well, or also like that we don't even have a way of picturing that.Like I have no I don't even know what 100 gallons of oil would really look like.Honestly, I would have to sit down and be like, well, if a gallon of milk is this high.Right. And also like how many gallons are in a swimming pool?
06:13Like I don't even know that.Right. So it's like I couldn't even begin to know what 11 million gallons actually means.And that's another thing that later on they determine that it's about 1500 milesof coastline that gets affected by this bill.And that's another one of those things at 1500 miles.Is that a lot? Is that a little?And then one of the interviews I was listening to, the person mentions that it's basicallyfrom Seattle to San Francisco.
06:37That's how much coastline got covered with oil, which when you think about it is huge.That's like two thirds of the entire West Coast.But Alaska is really big.So like 1500 miles is like not that much of Alaska by any other scale.It's like profound impacts.And so the original narrative of this was that the captain of the ship,Joseph Hazelwood, was drinking.So that's how the boat ended up out of the shipping lane, was basically this guy who
07:07he's had, I think, four DUIs.His driver's license was revoked at the time that he was driving the ship.He's from New York and he had had his license suspended in New York a bunch of times for DUIs.There's internal company memos where like they know that he's drinking and has a drinking problem,but they don't care that like he's a really good captain and he's like certified.And he's like he's actually really good at his job.He just happens to have this huge alcohol problem.And so they didn't really do anything about it.
07:36And so the original narrative of this spill is that basically this dude was really drunkand just kind of like reckless driving on this boat going like six miles an hour and ends up running at a ground.So if that's the original narrative, was he perhaps somewhat more of a Patsy than we realized at that time?You already know how these things work.I wonder if there's structural forces behind this.I wonder if something that went wrong, an amassive tanker controlled by a massive company,employing many people in charge of determining logistics and making decisions.If something going terribly wrong could not be entirely the fault of one person.
08:17Right. Exactly. Like, huh, right.It is actually true with the DUIs.Right.Yeah, I think the first debunkable thing is that he wasn't driving when the boat ran aground.So what really happened was the captain of the ship, Joseph Hazelwood, went to bed early and he put the third mate in charge.And it's not like this really absolves him of guilt.But so one of the explanations is that he was drinking and he was tired.So he put the third mate in charge.
08:48Another explanation is just that he was tired and he put the third mate in charge.But what happened, and there's been a million government EPA investigations of this sense,is that the third mate was put in charge 10 to 15 minutes before the crash.The third mate never should have been in charge.This was the least experienced captain on the entire ship.So there's four different people that are kind of in charge of driving one of these ships.There's like the first mate and the second mate and the captain.There's this whole hierarchy and basically the guy at the bottom of the hierarchy,
09:21kind of like the intern was essentially put in charge.So a lot of our narratives are too so far about interns being given too much responsibilityand how that doesn't work out well for anybody.Yeah, one of my favorite random details on this is that 10 hours after the crash.So it crashes, there's all this oil leaking out into the bay.Everyone's losing their minds.Somebody breathalyzes Joseph Hazelwood, the captain, and it's like,you've got a history with alcohol, we need to breathalyze you.
09:49He blows a 0.61, which in many states is too drunk to drive.And this is 10 hours after the crash.So like he's wasted.However, later on when he's in a negligence trial, he says he was drinking after the crashbecause because he was like, oh, we've crashed.My career is over.I'm going to like drink my sorrows away.So it's like a weird, he like makes a weird argument that like, yes, I'm extremely negligent,
10:17but after the crash, I'm not negligent before the crash.It's still not quite clear whether or not his alcohol contributed to this.And it is also clear that whether it's because of alcohol or not, Hazelwoodputting the least experienced guy in charge in like a very tricky driving situation.Like what is actually supposed to happen is that a special person is actually supposedto board your ship, drive it out of the difficult parts.Like someone who really knows the terrain.And then that dude, it's called a pilot.
10:51The pilot gets off the ship and then the captain takes over once you're in open waters.But that didn't happen.Isn't it interesting that you can have a whole job and it's like being able to fly a plane,but not land one.Right.It's like that's the only thing you know how to do is get these ships out of this one particular.Yeah, like every one of these kind of major crashes, this of course is the story of like10 different fail safes.
11:13So the Coast Guard was supposed to be watching the ship and should have notified them likeping them that you're out of the shipping lane, but they didn't.This does remind me of like the best description I've heard of Titanic sinking,which is that there really was only one fairly specific way that Titanic could sink.And that was just exactly what happened.Like it had to be at a time where they're on unusual number of icebergs because they weregoing on a route that was known for its lack of icebergs.It was April.
11:42It was way too late for them to have expected to encounter one.They didn't have the binoculars for the lookouts.They instead of ramming it, which actually they would have been able to get to New Yorkif they just hit it head on because they would have had only one compartment breach.They scraped alongside of it, not very hard, but for almost the whole length of the ship.And also because it was colder than the materials in the ship were really made for.They were really brittle and say that they were more prone to breakagebecause the temperature of the water.
12:12So all these very specific things had to happen all at once.And it's just that they did.Right. It's like this with airplane crashes, too, that there's always like 10 things that go wrongand there's some percentage chance of any one of those things going wrong.Right. So it's like compound risk of like there's a 2% chance of the instruments failing.There's another 2% chance of the pilot being asleep.There's all these kind of 2% chances that if they all happen at once,something really catastrophic is going to happen.
12:40But what happens, I think it's like a corporate governance thing.What happens is that over time, each of these 2% chances get bigger.It's expensive to keep all of these risky things low risk.So it's like over time, those 2% risks become 4% risks become 5% risks.And that then has a has a compounding effect.So one of the interesting things about this and the really the very structural explanation of thisis that that type of boat never should have been in those waters anyway.One of the in one of these EPA reports, I saw one of the defenses
13:19that the Coast Guard offered for why they didn't ping the ship and say,hey, you're out of the shipping lane is because they did that all the time.They're like, Oh, well, six hours before some other ship was out of the shipping laneand we didn't tell them.It just goes to show that they had basically been getting more and more and more negligent over timethat they're like, Oh, well, the boats want to go faster.Like Exxon is pushing us to be more efficient.You know, they'll get to Long Beach, whatever an hour earlier.
13:45So let's just let them go out of the shipping lane.And then after a while, it becomes normal.They're like, Oh, well, they're all out of the shipping lane.So whatever, or like not having the pilot on the ship.They're like, Well, we only do that every once in a while.Just go a little faster than it's safe.Yeah. And that's like that's really what happens is that every single one of thesetiny low risk events just slowly over the years had become more and more risky.
14:08Like the all of the safeguards had gotten more and more lack.So the real story of this actually begins in 1968.This is before the oil embargo and oil is pretty cheap.They find they strike oil in Prudhoe Bay, which is north of Alaska.It's like the northern tip, the northern like side of Alaska.So they discover oil up there.But that bay, the oil is underwater and that bay is frozen a lot of the year.So there's no way to get oil out of that bay.
14:37Most of the year it's frozen solid.So you can get the oil out, but you can't actually put it on a shipand send it down to the rest of the country.So in 19 in the early 70s, they start wanting to build a oil pipeline.They're like, well, the only way we're ever going to get this oil out of thereis with a pipeline that goes all the way across Alaska.Just imagine like drawing a straight line through Alaskafrom the top edge to the bottom edge.
15:00And that's where they want to put the pipeline.And there's this whole history of when they were building the oil pipeline.The whole idea was to run the oil pipeline across Alaskaand then put it on a boat as they do and then run it down to California.The fishermen in this bay are like, this sounds really reckless.There's going to be a spill.Like you can't just have like 1.5 million gallons.I think every day or every year again, I have no idea what these volumes are.
15:25But a lot of oil is going to be going through this pipeline.And also like if an Alaska fishermanwhose job is going out in inclement conditions in the freezing coldto maybe capsize and drown just sort of as an occupational hazard is like,this is too risky.Yeah, you should listen to them.And so these people in the 1970s are basically predicting exactly what would happen.They're like, there's a lot of shallow reefs.
15:51You'll probably be doing this in the darkbecause you'll want to be doing it 24 hours a day.A lot of people are not trained and are not like good at these reefs.Yeah.Though, you know, the water level changes like it's an actually difficult taskand it's inevitable that one of these boats is going to run aground.And this this is literally our livelihood.Like this is we are dependent on the fish.
16:12The entire half of most of these coastal towns,about half the population of all those towns is directly engaged in commercial fishing.And then the rest of the towns are sort of support networks, right?It's like school teachers and restaurants and stuff like that.So the entire coastline of Alaska is completely dependent on fishing.So these fishermen communities are like, guys, this is a really bad idea.And so Exxon, which of course is wanting to develop these oil fields, is like,look, you're absolutely right.
16:39You have a really good point.We're going to run ships with double hulls so that if it gets cut,there's like an extra layer of protection.We're going to have pilots on our ships.We're going to have like tugboat escorts that drive us through the channels.We're never going to deviate from the shipping lanes.We're going to be really careful.Congress in their infinite wisdom is like, let's trust the oil company on this.
17:03Like forget these like fishermen who live up there.Let's go with Exxon.Like Exxon is definitely telling the truth about this.So none of this stuff gets written down.So Exxon makes all these promises about the way they're going to run theiroperations and none of it is codified into law.Let's not ask the police to transcribe their interrogations.Let's just trust that what they say is what happens.
17:24And it's not as if they have any incentive to lie, right?So we can we can 100 percent trust them.Like they're fine.They're a private sector actor with like shareholder responsibility.So like, yeah, let's trust them.And so Nixon approves this pipeline.And then this is the most bananas thing.So on this double hold vessels, obviously these these ships with double
17:44holds are much heavier.So they require more fuel to run and they go a lot slower.So they cost Exxon a lot more.So Exxon stops using them after like a little bit of time.They just like quietly stop using them.And it's just like any way that you behave if you like don't want to get caught.Like you're really careful at first.And then you're just like, you know what, if I just quietly stop trying very hard,
18:06I don't think anyone will know it.And it was bananas thing in the early 80s.Alaska passes a law saying that all vessels have to be double hold.Exxon sues the state of Alaska saying that's an undue burden.And they never promised to do that.Like that's how brazen this company is.So one by one, every single thing that they've promised goes away.By the time we get to the 1980s, they're just like going as fast as they can.
18:36This Hazelwood guy.This is another thing that like didn't end up in any other reports at the time.The captain of the ship was in a labor dispute with Exxon at the timebecause he was concerned that they were pushing him harder and harder to go faster and faster.And so he had actually complained to the company, guys, you're making me go too fast.I'm not comfortable with this.And the company was like, no, no, you need to like produce, produce, produce.So it's really it's a story of pressure from above.
19:02And then pushing all of these little tiny risks higher and higher.I listened to a bunch of interviews with this woman named Ricky Ott,who was a marine toxicologist who happened to get a summer jobon an Alaska fishing boat the summer before the oil spill.So like this marine toxicologist in the city of 2,500 people happens to be living thereand just like is a fisherman lady and she starts looking into all this stuff.And so the night before the Exxon Valdez bill,she was giving a presentation to Alaska lawmakers.
19:38The title of the presentation was it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when.Where she was saying kind of as a toxicologist, she had been looking at all this.She knew how devastating the impacts would be on the entire economy thereand on the ecosystem and the people there.And she knew that the company was cutting corners.So she was trying to ring the alarm like, guys, this is going to happen.You need to really aggressively regulate this company.The next day she gets a knock on her door from somebody saying the big one happened.
20:07And that was how people refer to it.Everyone in this little city, Cordova, they called it the big onebecause they kind of knew it was going to happen.I mean, one of the one of the most wild things about this.So the boat runs aground March 24th,another area where the company was cutting corners was cleanup.So one of the things they had promised to the state was like, look,we're going to have all kinds of fail safes.
20:30We're going to have like people in place and experts and like cleanup crews,like ready like lifeguards in case anything bad happens.And of course, this costs money to have people stationed there.So they had cut and cut and cut.And where they secretly like, look, nothing bad is going to actually happen.It's like the lifeboats on the Titanic.They're just like, it's never going to happen.It's indestructible. Don't worry about it.
20:54This this Ricky Ott woman who's like my like role model now.She's super cool. She's written like five books about this.I think it's important that in every show we have a hero and a nemesis.Yes. And this time it's Ricky Ott can be our hero. Yeah.She points out that the boat runs aground on the 24th.The oil leaks out of the boat.The boat basically gets like empty of oil and then it just sits there.So for three days, this oil is just sitting there.
21:19And everyone's like, what should we do?And the company's like, well, we're flying in people.But there had never been a cleanup of this scale in the United States before.And there really wasn't science to back up how to clean up one of these bills.This was another thing that that that she had presentedto lawmakers in her presentation was like, if this happens,we don't know how to clean it up. Like at the best, like the best clean uptechnology we have recovers 10 percent of oil that spills in the water.
21:50Like that's the best we can do is 10 percent.So like if there's an oil spill, 90 percent of the oil is going to just sit there.And that's actually true.Like by now, eight percent of the oil was recovered.This is however many years later, eight percent of the oil was recovered.So all of this oil is still there in Prince William Sound.So this oil sits there for three days.Nobody does anything.
22:13And everyone's like, are you going to like send in people?Like, is anything going to happen?And then day four, a storm happens.And this is how all of this oil, all 11 million gallons or whatever it is,gets blown to the West.And that's how it just like scrapes the entire coastline of Alaska is the stormsends it.So it's another little misfortune thrown on the pile.
22:36Yeah, just like if they had acted earlier, they wouldn't have.I mean, obviously they wouldn't have been able to get all of it,but they would have been able to do more than just leaving it floatingon the top of the water and like waiting for like a big storm surge to comeand then to just like spread it around.And it said the only response they're capable of having is like,we didn't plan for bad things to happen.So we don't know what to do.
22:58And like the state regulators were asleep.But the way like no one took it seriously, that this would ever happen.And no one took like the technology of cleanup particularly seriously.So they were literally they were testing cleanup methods on this cleanupbecause nobody had really tried to clean up a large scale oil spill before.So they're just like, oh, I wonder if we can like use sponges.Like I wonder if we can use chemicals that will like seek it to the bottom.But they're like testing things out as this is dousing all the killer whales
23:30and all the birds.They're just like picking it up as they go along.According to Ricky Ott and also according to some of the EPA documentsI read to this day on a lot of the coastline in Alaska,if you dig down 18 inches and you put your hand into the sand,it will come out black. Oh my God.I don't understand anything about chemistry or oil,but eventually the oil gets hydrated somehow
23:54and the oil basically sinks to the bottom.So what's happened is some of the fisheries have recovered,but that's not because the oil has like gone away.It's because the oil is just sunk to the bottom of the sound.So it's still there and like presumably having some sort of impact.I mean, I don't think that you can have millions of gallons of oilat the bottom of a bay, like not fucking with things.Right. I'm no chemist or gasologist.
24:21And yet it just seems like it would have some effect on something.Yes. Yeah.So by all accounts, the cleanup effort was just kind of janky.It took three years, but then after three years,they stopped the cleanup effort, I don't know, which seems weirdbecause they've only recovered eight percent of the oil.Isn't it kind of like how we don't talk about AIDS anymore in America, really?Because we got to this point where people weren't dying constantly
24:48and in public all the time.And we were like, OK, we're just we're tired.Yeah. We're we're like lower than bubonic plague levels.And so we're just going to focus on other diseases right now.We just don't have it in us.We cannot keep talking about the same thing for as long as it happens.Yeah. Well, this gets into our continuingconversation about what makes the news news, because is there something about
25:10like Exxon Valdez was news for as long as it was a disaster?Right. And then like, do you think that it it maybe to an extent became moreof a narrative of, oh, hey, we fucked something up and this is whatthe Alaskan coastline is now and maybe will be for the rest of our lives.And we can continue to try and clean it up.But this is bigger than all of us and it will outlive us.And we can't see ourselves as heroes in that kind of a story.So like, let's just give up.
25:38I think so. I mean, it also stopped producing as many of the dramatic imagesor we got used to the dramatic images, right?You can only see so many pictures of a seagull covered in oil before you're like,like you just don't it doesn't have the impact anymore.The compassion fatigue thing happens.I mean, we'll we'll get to this.But the biggest and most interesting impact of the Exxon Valdez billbarely got commented.
26:03They were all like page 32 news and the newspapers.The other thing I wanted to bunk about this was that the Exxon Valdezbill wasn't that big of an oil spill. Really?Yeah. At the time of the oil spill, it was the worst oil spill in American history.But in world history, it was the 36th worst.That's like how we don't even have like a top 32 in the world team and soccer.And we just don't pay attention to things that we don't rank highly at.We're just like, soccer isn't real.
26:32This is the biggest oil spill in the world.The end.But that's the thing is like, I think people don't think about the factthat like other countries are affected by industrial accidents.So the Exxon Valdez bill was 11 million gallons spilling into the sound.The largest oil spill in the world was 240 million gallons.Huge. So this was after the Gulf, after the first Gulf War,a bunch of oil people there started just shooting oil into the Persian Gulf.
27:07Wow. They put it out and then they set it on fire to keep Americans from coming.You know, if they had been in America, they could have just polluted a riverenough that it caught spontaneously on fire like the Cuyahoga.One of the most bananas ones, which I had never heard ofbefore I started working on this in 1979, two oil tankers ran into each otherin the Caribbean and then caught fire and sank.And so that was 88 million gallons.Oh, my God.
27:36So that's another one where like it also killed way more people.It killed 26 people because these boats exploded after they after they rammed into each other.And so this is like a fucking huge deal.But it's like it's just not like the country of Tobago is not one that we spenda lot of time thinking about.And like the Caribbean Sea is not a body of water that we're particularly concerned with.But like 88 million gallons is hella.It's also worth noting that now, you know, the Deepwater Horizon, the B.P.
28:02spill, that's now the second biggest in world history.Well, at least we aged in there.Thank goodness. Now we're finally in the league tables.The corporate forces that allowed Exxon Valdez to happen remind me so muchof a film that I recently saw for the first time, which is the Jennifer Lopez vehicle.Enough recent. Oh, my God.No, but it looked terrible.Sarah, why did you it looks so interesting about enough?
28:27What? It's really bad.And then it gets really good in the last 20 minutes.And then it gets really bad again.But there's a very satisfying part where you're watching Jennifer Lopezjust getting ready to kick the shit out of her abusive acts and like taping up her knucklesand like putting tape on over all her rings, and it's great.But enough is the sort of classic abuse dynamic being set up narrative.So like this guy swoops in and he has all this money and he buys Jennifer Lopez
28:54her dream house and she's like, why would I ask questions about this?This is great. Yeah.You know that you're entering into a power dynamic where you're surrendering your controland you just have to believe that the entity you're surrendering your control to,whether it's TV's Billy Campbell or Exxon,they just have to keep wanting to keep your best interests at heart.Well, one of the weird blind spots that kept occurring to me as I was readingabout this was that every kind of smart and savvy American is like,
29:24well, you can't expect companies to have a consciencebecause companies are not social actors, right?They're profit maximizing.CEOs cannot go to their shareholders and say like, we're doing thisbecause it's good for the community.If that's our guiding principle and if that's the rule behind the waythat the capitalist economy is structured, fine.But then that has to suffuse every stage.
29:48If we know that at the end of the process, we're like, look,we can't expect Exxon to clean up all this oil.Well, shouldn't that also inform the way that we set up regulations?Like this company will keep its promises.No, no, their word is their bond.No, no use writing all this down.The fundamental thing is that if a company's profits are at stake,it will lie to maintain them.
30:11It will sue to maintain them.It will act in bad faith to maintain them.And all of that is fine.We can all be savvy and accept the fact that that's the system we've created.But we have to make that part of the system at every stage,not just at this end stage to bring in another very fraught metaphor.Isn't this reflective of the fact that America just is Jennifer Lopez?The thing that happens in a domestic abuse dynamic is that you have
30:36tension building, acute battery incident and then loving contrition.And it feels like we have these moments like the Exxon Valdez billthat are an acute battery incident.And then we have loving contrition and we're like, OK,we're going to take our shoes off.We're going to have double hold tankers.We're going to fix the specific problem.Right. You're never going to be nice.
30:56You're not capable of it. That's not who you are.Well, this leads perfectly into what I think is the real storyof the Exxon Valdez bill and the one that we don't tell as often.To me, it feels like the real story of the Exxon Valdezis about the lawsuit that was filed.So right after the spill, obviously, people are destroyed.People, everybody depends on commercial fishing in these small townsand commercial fishing is gone.
31:27It just literally doesn't exist anymore.All the fisheries are closed.All of the fishing stops, the entire backbone of the economyof these places is completely decimated.So after this bill, I think it's 90 or 91.People file a class action lawsuit against Exxonfor the damages that have been caused for short term damages,for long term damages.
31:48This lawsuit ends up going on for 14 years,ends up going to the Supreme Court.And it sets a precedent for the next time this happens.It's going to be so much worse.So basically, the first thing that happens is the company makes everybodyprove that there were damages.So the first sort of traumatic component of this is that to provethat you've been harmed by the oil spill, you have to document
32:18that your livelihood depends on commercial fishingand that commercial fishing was damaged.And so, of course, because again, we live in a capitalist systemwith shareholder value as paramount, the company begins thiscampaign of questioning everything, questioning, well,was commercial fishing really damaged by the spill?How short of a skirt was commercial fishing wearing that night?Like literally.
32:44And then there's all this documentation stuff.So that the process of discovery is bananasbecause we've got hundreds of thousands of people that are affected.So it's like, well, are you really in the commercial fishing industry?I mean, I need to see every pay stub for every month you've ever workedon commercial fishing.I need to see your bank statements.And of course, the company has the resources to question everything, right?
33:07That they're like, well, you say you began as a commercial fishermanJanuary 13th and this other record says it's January 14th.So I just don't believe that you're a commercial fisher.They just do this nickel and diming, just questioning everything.And one thing that Ricky Ott and other people mentioned is just so brokenabout the legal system is that it's an adversarial system.So their role, Exxon's role in this process is to question literally everythingbecause that's the way that the legal system is supposed to work, right?
33:41One person is opposing and one person is advancing.But of course, the opposing team has way more resources and way morepatience than the advancing team, right?If you have just lost your livelihood, you need relief now.You're on the hook and the company can just wait and wait and wait.I'm sure that all of the poverty wage earning fishermen in Alaskacan afford to stay locked in a legal battle for 14 years.Like I'm sure that they have completely equal footing with Exxon.
34:13And of course, the legal system is not set up for power imbalances like this,right? So they go through the original trial.There's a jury trial in Alaska where they're assessing the claim.So Exxon somehow manages to narrow it down to 32,000 claimsbecause they've thrown out all the other claims for compensation.They think that they should only be paying people.I think it's something like $11,000 each for each of these claims.They're only going to pay back the actual Fisher.
34:44I don't want to say I'm trying to talk around the word fishermen,but like Fisher people because like they are, of course, gender mixed.The Fisher humans are humans.But basically, Exxon is making these completely insane claims.So they at some point want to limit.They argue to a judge that they want to limit the total compensation.Again, 1500 miles of coastline, tens of thousands of people affected.Exxon wants to limit the total compensation to $25 million.
35:11They're like, look, we don't care how it's distributed,but we just think 25 million is about right.And they refuse to pay for any long term consequences.They're only paying for short term consequences.Basically, we ruined like this one summer for you.So whatever you would in this summer, that's what we're going to pay back.So it's only the fishermen, none of the teachers, the restaurants.The tourism is decimated, right?
35:38So the people that rely on tourism are just as decimated as the Fisher people.But they don't get any compensationbecause, oh, sorry, those are indirect impacts.And there's no proof that tourism wouldn't have gone to zero people that summer anyway.So we just don't see the evidence.You could have had a black fly infestation.It's not because of the oil spill necessarily.It's 100% disingenuous.
36:03But the way that the legal system is set up is that you have to take every claimseriously, even if on its face, it's disingenuous, right?There's no there's no like release valve.Don't you think you should be able to instead of standing up and saying,I object, you know, in a trial, there should be some sort of maneuverwhere you stand up and go, really, really, where you just need to signalthat, like, look, this is in bad faith.And that's what's so frustrating about this whole system.
36:29And really, the whole corporate accountability mechanisms in generalis that the company files 22 motions to dismiss during this original trial.It's already been five years.This is 1994.The company files 22 motions saying, look, this shouldn't even be a case at all.We don't see why we don't see why these people are even filing for compensation.It's total bullshit.But there's no release valve for the legal system to just say, no, fuck you.
37:00So this trial ends up taking years.The jury to their huge credit say compensation to these 32,000 people.Compensation is $287 million total, which is only about $7,000 each bananas.But punitive damages are going to be five billion.That's one year of Exxon's profits.You have destroyed an entire ecosystem, an entire economy.That is a really beautiful verdict, right?It has like a nice roundness to it.
37:31And it's punitive damages.The whole purpose of punitive damages is so that you don't do it again.Like this is how consequences work, right?Is that you don't like consequences.And so to avoid consequences, you behave differently in the future.Like this is what every five year old understands and what the entire systemof corporate accountability pretends doesn't exist.Right.
37:52And it's like that thing of trying to get someone to apologize and by constantlytrying to get all these dismissals.The corporation is just like, I'm sorry, you feel that way.I'm sorry about like the witch hunt that you're on.Yeah. Apologies for your witch hunt.So the company, of course, like this is not going to be a happy ending, right?So the company obviously appeals.This is why Aaron Brokowicz ended before the appeals.
38:15And this is also, I mean, we we covered this in our sexual harassment episodethat like the entire thing of punitive damages is just so fucking brokenthat it's like there's these victories and then they always get overturned on appeal.So Ricky Ott talks about how this eventually gets appealed to the Ninth Circuitwhere basically the judges say, well, the community wants five billionand the company wants zero.So why don't we just award 2.5 billion?So Ricky Ott says like this hasn't happened before.
38:48Like one actor, like one side of that equation is people.And the other side is a company that is transparently acting in bad faith.So why would you just give them equal weight and like cut the difference?Like that makes no sense.And so then, of course, the company then appeals because this company is terrible.They appeal up to the Supreme Court.The Supreme Court then cuts it to 500 million.Oh, God, the Supreme Court doesn't even cut the punitive damages to 500.
39:20They cut the entire damages.So what the Supreme Court comes up with is this preposterous formula in which punitivedamages can never be more than equal to the compensatory damages.So because the company is paid 287 million in compensation,the punitive damages cannot exceed $287 million.So it sets a bad legal precedent, in fact, after 14 years.Essentially, it becomes the inability of regulators and judgesto hold companies to account that if companies are going to nickel and dime,
39:57the compensation down as low as they possibly can.They're going to nickel and dime it down to $7000 for people that have lostliterally their entire livelihoods.Then, oh, on top of that, we can only put one more, like one X of that on topto punish the company so that they never do it again.We're now down to it was a year of the company's profits.By the time this 500 million verdict comes down, it's four days of profit.For the company.
40:28So what punitiveness is that?They've removed all of the incentive for the company to behave any differently.I mean, you know more about courts than I do, so I don't know if courts ever do this.But basically, the Supreme Court, in the decision, is like,we don't think this should be a precedent.This should only apply to maritime cases.So the Supreme Court is like, no, this only applies to maritime law, which like why?Like, what is what the fuck are you talking about?
40:58Who cares if it's maritime or not?And they cite all these precedents.They cite a precedent of a BMW lawsuit to justify this, that like punitive damagesare out of control, but then they say, oh, well, it only applies to maritime law.But a lot of legal scholars since this have pointed out that circuit courts andlower courts are using this as a precedent.This idea of one to one punitive damages has become a precedent despite the SupremeCourt super disingenuously being like, oh, we're a court which runs on case law.
41:29But like, don't consider this case law.What lower court judge is going to be like, oh, well, the Supreme Court told me notto, so I'm not going to use it.No, all the lower court judges are using this bullshit one to one formula.So what this case really represents is just the carpet being pulled out from underany mechanism to hold companies to account.Like, why would excellent behave any differently now?I mean, it has the ring of logic, but no actual content.
41:56It's like, well, punitive damages can't be more than compensatory damages.And that's like when your friend is like, well, you can't come to the slumberparty because I only have four sleeping bags.And it's like, that's not a real reason.That's just something that you say to avoid saying your actual reason,which is like, I don't want you at my slumber party.Or for whatever reason, we have becomea near to the fact that we cannot expect corporations to actually be held financially
42:23accountable for the extent to which they're destroying the entire world.Like, it's just we've given up on the idea, but only in maritime.You're exactly right, because the Supreme Court says they make it seem likethere's some crisis of punitive damages in America today.They're like, you know, punitive damages have gotten like really arbitrary.Like some cases have like five million in punitive damages and some of them haveone million, like that's bad.And it's like, is it or like, is it bad that companies aren't being held to account?
42:56I think it's so like impunity for companies that do bad shit to me is so much worsethan punitive damages being arbitrary.Like this idea that we have to have a formula for punitive damages is dumb.We don't have a formula for anything else.Like this is how jury trials work.There's not a perfect formula for like if you kill your wife, you will get exactlytwenty seven months in prison.No, we look at the individual, we look at their circumstances, we look at whether
43:22it was premeditated. This is how the legal system works.Yeah. And they also this was like the partthat I was like in my notes, I was like in all caps, like you are fucking kidding me.So one of the things the Supreme Court mentions is that this arbitrariness ofpunitive damages violates the due process rights of corporations.Doesn't it do the opposite, in fact, because by saying that they're going tobe evaluated individually, doesn't that guarantee them more due process?Oh, yeah, that's a good point.
43:48I hadn't thought about that actually.Oh, I was more just offended at the idea that like poor little Exxon.You're right. We need to protect Exxon.And the due process clause was written to protect entities like Exxon, surely.Like that is what was on the mind.Yes, the most powerful actors in society definitely need their due process rights.And so this gets to the crying on my bicycle part, which is.Ricky Ott, who was she was living in Cordova, Alaska at the time
44:17when all of this was going on, she talks about how this entire process,not just the spill, but also the litigation, tore the city apart.Suicide rates went up, depression rates went up, divorces went up,kids got worse grades in school, crime rates quadrupled.There's actually an academic literature on this.One of the most interesting studies I found was after the spill,these sociologists went up to Cordova, Alaska and ended up living thereand documenting everything that was going on in the community afterwards.
44:48There's a real thing.It's called disaster trauma or collective trauma where communitiesdestroy themselves after these events.And what's really interesting is that communities that are hit with an actof God, something like an earthquake or a storm, they don't do this.It's only when it's manmade disasters that people tear themselves apart.And they give three reasons for this.The first thing is that people lose trust in institutions,
45:15that there's so much government failure here and corporate failureand people failure that you get mad and you stop trusting in the system.And obviously, how could you not hate the court systemif you live in Cordova, Alaska and you're waiting for 14 yearsfor your $15,000 check for your lost life savings?This lack of trust starts to infect your relationships with everybody.And then also there's like a compounding mental and physical health problem.So people start getting depression, they get a lot of anxiety,
45:46they start fighting with their wives.One of the things that's really bad is the ambiguity that, you know,six months after the spill, you start getting like a hacking cough, right?And you're like, well, is this a spill?Is it not the spill?Some of your neighbors are like, fuck Exxon, the spill did it.And then some of your neighbors like, no, we need to hear them out.It's not that bad.
46:04So this ambiguity, they call it, the researchers call it ambiguity of harm.It creates a us versus them.So Ott talks about the community dividing itselfbetween the purists and the Exxon whores.So members of the community start accusing each other of some people are saying,like, you know what, we knew this was going to happen.We shouldn't be asking for compensation at all.And other people are kind of trying to lead the march
46:32for we need to take this company down.We need to sabotage their operations.If we see their employees in town, we should throw drinks on them.These are the spectrum of approaches that you can take in the aftermathof sexual assault can also go to, you know, the responses of like,I'm going to throw a brick through that guy's window or it's my fault.Right. Everything's my fault somehow.In one of the interviews, this podcast interview with her, I was listening to
46:56because she's a marine toxicologist.So the interview is asking her about like, tell us about the seabirdsand tell us about the killer whales.And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.What really happened was the community got really depressedand it became a really sad and hard place to live for a really long time.And she talks about just like as a human living in a placethat becomes defined by this disaster.
47:16Another thing that I think would be so hard about this is the populationof all these coastal towns doubled almost overnight.So all of these researchers start to arrive.All the cleanup crews start to arrive.So not only have you lost your livelihood, but then rents go nutsbecause there's all these people moving there and there's no extra houses.The prices of food go nuts.The prices of everything goes nuts.
47:43So you lost your livelihood and you've got all these new peoplewho you don't necessarily trust and you have less money and everything costs more.And so that also creates us versus them of like, there's all these interlopers.I've read a report from the state of Alaska on the economic impact of the spill.And people at the time were earning $16 an hour to be cleanup workers,which in today's money is like 28 bucks, which is like that's a good salary.And so some of these fishermen got jobs doing that, but then some didn't.And that also created a lot of stress for them
48:18that some people are actually benefiting from this bill.Yeah. And that like this force came in to destroy your livelihood.And then the compensatory industry is based on cleaning upthis thing that ruined your whole life.Right. For which you have not been compensated.So that human element of it just sounds so sad to me and so awful.And she says domestic violence rates went crazy.I just think of it as like, you know, you've injected oil into this community,
48:44but you've also just injected anxiety where there's all these people that they don't know.I mean, some of them after the spill, some of them ended up gettinggood jobs for a couple of years as cleanup workers, but they didn't know that.So for all these people, this was March, right?So all they knew was that this summer, maybe I can fish.Maybe I can't. My livelihood is destroyed.Like imagine how much anxiety you'd have.They live in a community that doesn't have a road.
49:10So it's a very remote community.A lot of them have been fishers for years.So it's not clear that there's really anything else for them to do in this particular city.And they're thinking like, well, do I have to move?Do I have to retrain?Just the anxiety of injecting all this anxiety into every single familyin a community all at once just seems like, of course, it would be disastrous.And it's interesting to me that just that we haven't heard that much about this,
49:36that like I looked at all these like Exxon Valdez 25 years later types of thingsand very few of them mentioned the human toll.It was mostly about the ecosystem, which like the ecosystem is fucked.Like I'm not saying we shouldn't care about the ecosystem,but this idea that like disaster, trauma and collective trauma is a real phenomenon.And I'm sure that it will be happening.Like, can you imagine what Puerto Rico is like right now?I literally can't imagine what it's like right now.
50:02I mean, that was like why I think I was crying on my bike was partlybecause of just like how sad it sounds, but then also like how that should haveoccurred to me anyway, right?When you hear about something like this, it should be really obvious to youthat like, oh, my God, imagine what it's like for those people.Not the day after or the week after, but like a year after and 10 years after.Like it leaves this scar that probably never heals.I think this is a way of thinking that we have to teach ourselves
50:27and sort of reinforces a practice because it's, I think, again,something that's societally enforced, but that we do as a species of, you know,my description of what is Exxon Valdez as well.It was this disaster and the wildlife was affected.And then we ended up with, you know, setting precedentsthat would make it less likely to happen again.In fact, we ended up setting a precedent that made things worse.Right.
50:53If we're talking about assigning punitive damages to peoplewhose lives are destroyed by the risky business, I guess, of major corporations.And it did not occur to me to think of this as a tragedy that happened to peoplebecause it wasn't presented to me that way.And I haven't trained my brain sufficiently to be like everythingthat happens on the scale is going to have this kind of a footprint.I'm going to end with like the darkest finding from all of this.Great. In these communities, people who were involved
51:23in the litigation had higher rates of depression than peoplewho weren't involved in the litigation.Interesting.So what these researchers are finding about disaster traumais that the litigation itself is a source of stress.They call it a secondary disaster.The first wave of harm happens with the oil.The second wave of harm is the lawsuit itself.
51:44This process of discovery, this process of proving that you're a fishermanbeing divided against your neighbors, all of the organizing that takes placeis itself hugely stressful.And so one of the things that OTT says was that a lot of people by 2008,even though they were only getting ten cents on the dollar,what they were expecting to get, what they feel like they should have gotten,a lot of them were actually happy that it was over.Getting a tiny payout is almost better than another five years
52:12and a small chance of getting a larger payout.Like, it's just for these people, it feels like it's over.This reminds me also of how I read something recentlythat I found fascinating debunking the marshmallow test.Do you remember the famous marshmallow test that was done?It was like kids who waited to eat the marshmallow the longestended up being like the most successful kids because they could resisttheir own temptations long enough.
52:36So they became like lawyers and doctors because they studied harder or whatever.And the test was you can have a marshmallow nowor you can have two marshmallows in three minutes,but you have to sit there and look at your one marshmallow and not eat it.And they did this with preschoolers.Right. And so this new study, complicating if not outright debunkingthat original study was like, hmm, isn't it interestingthat most of the students here were in the Stanford preschool
52:59and so their parents were in the Stanford community.And so we're talking about kids largely being drawn from a demographicof middle to upper middle class, professional,college educated, white people, not entirely, but to a great extent.And then they looked at the corresponding data about which kids atetwo marshmallows and which kids ate one and found that, in fact,regardless of how many marshmallows you ate,you were on a trajectory to become a doctor or a professor or whatever.
53:27If you had college educated parents and sectioned sectioning come in your household.And the marshmallow thing was perhaps kind of a red herring.And the argument that the author of this article that I read aboutthat he bunking put forth also is that if you are a kid from a low income homeand someone puts a marshmallow in front of you, where are you getting the faiththat there are eventually going to be more marshmallows?Like if you're raised with food insecurity or with like maybe you get a little treat now,but there's really no point in waiting for a bigger treat later
53:57because there are no bigger treats in the world like you eat your marshmallowwhen it is in front of you. Right.It's just a different way of seeing the world.And this leads to like one of the weirdest and saddest things about the spill is that again,this Ricky Ott woman who's like my hero now.She was sort of after she wrote a book about this,she was kind of making the rounds to Alaska lawmakers and saying like we need to pass a law.Like there's lots of other oil shit going on in Alaska.
54:22And like we need to be really careful about that shit.And a lot of the lawmakers said, well, look,that spill pumped three billion dollars into our economy.And that brought us out of the recession.So the unemployment rate in Alaska single handedly in one summer due to the spillwent from seven point two percent, which is really high to six point eight percent.So point four percent unemployment rate dropped for this one spill.So this is another thing of like the incentives for these bills is that you think
54:51of all the economic activity that's been lost now,like the tourism sector has been decimated, fishing has been decimated,these communities have been decimated.But that's all long term effects.The short term effects were like an injection of money into the state.And so the lawmakers don't really have an incentive to change anything.Because they're like, well, if something bad happens,we'll just get like a ton of federal money and like whatever,
55:15we'll lose some seabirds fine, but we'll get this Keynesian boost to our economy.Right. Well, it's like your husband beats you to a pulpand then he pays for your hospital stay and buys you a new Mercedes.I mean, so I worked in human rights for 11 years.So I feel very strongly about this.And not only did I work in human rights, but I worked in corporate human rights.Like trying to hold companies accountable for human rights violations.I mean, this to me really demonstrated to me why I left corporate human rights work.
55:42I did all these projects with so many companies,like I did all these consultancy projects directly for companieswhere they would like show us their data and we would like tell themwhat their human rights risks were.And it seemed like Exxon, if you go on Exxon's website,they have a human rights statement.They have like a human rights, like a sustainability reportthat they put out with all of their like values
56:02and like our diversity systems and are like we're supporting the artsand all this like human rights stuff.And you just know that the next time there's a spill,the next time anything happens,their lawyers are just going to become junkyard dogs.That is the model that we have.And so it happens so many times to me when I was doing that kind of workthat I would do one of these human rights projects
56:26and the companies would say all the right things and like,oh, we're like consulting with communitiesand we're doing all these like women empowerment grantsthat we're giving out in Zambia.And then the minute something goes wrong, they're like,oh, fuck Zambia, fuck these women.Like, no, these women are liars.These women were manipulating us.
56:43But literally, I mean, literally, this is what companies always say,like, oh, you know, we're being targeted by the end.You always hear this, that like the communities are gold diggers.And like this does actually happen.Like I've been in like African communitieswhere like something bad happens and people do kind of come outof the woodwork compensation.But I also think that that's a much, much, much smaller problem
57:04with a much smaller impact than companies destroying people's health.Yeah, it's a power dynamic where as an individual, you're not going to win.It's so stacked against you.It's like going to Atlantic City to win your rent money for next month.I would rather have a system that's like, you know what,we wasted a couple thousand dollars on like a fisherman in Alaskaor a farmer in Zambia rather than we allowed a companyto completely distort the process.
57:31Like, I think there's always going to be errors in any system.But it's like, who do the errors benefit?And companies are always arguing that any looseness in the systemshould benefit them.And I just do not agree with that.I mean, I've written essays about this of my feeling really fucked upabout all the years I spent doing that of just like, this is how it works.Companies say all the right things.
57:54And the minute anything is on the line, they completely reverse.And they say in court that everybody else is a liarand that they have no social obligations at all.I just think we should start to trust their lawyers rather than their marketing.I mean, that reminds me of like a moment that was really decisive for me,just sort of realizing what companies are, I guess, was I saw this amazing adthat was just one of those beautiful ads where it's like sweeping musicand like the face of a young woman and fields and farmers and the sun rising.
58:25You're like, wow, the world is a beautiful place.And we all get up in the morning and do our best.And then it was an ad for Dow Chemical.And I had recently learned that Dow manufactured Agent Orange.And I was like, huh, I think I was a teenager at the time.And there was that moment of being like, oh, so you can literally havea campaign of selling good feelings.I just ever since I moved back to the States,
58:49I'm just so cognizant of how much more luck plays into my life here.That basically we've now set up a system where the next Exxon Valdez billis not going to be done very well.Like there's BP had to put 20 billion dollars into a fundafter the Deepwater Horizons bill, which is good.But then they're also doing the same nickel and diming stuffand making people justify every single one of their claims.They're lowballing everybody.
59:16They're basically behaving terribly.Well, I feel like my life is going OK, but it's like I'm just one accidentaway from everything being gone and having no recourse.And I will turn that into one of my bizarre last minute twistsinto optimism and polyanism.If the people who are supposed to be protected by fishermen in Alaskahaving their lives destroyed, if that's like done for the benefitof the blind Siddhartha middle class, if that goes away
59:47and no one's really benefiting except for like these few crazed,you know, road warrior, conglomerate types,eventually the balance is going to shift.I mean, this is what I took out of interning at the Georgia Innocence Project,where I realized that I was looking at this criminal justice systemthat had been set up the entire time with this argument of like, look,as a middle class white woman, you're the person who we are wrongfullyconvicting all of these people for.
01:00:12It is for you.This whole system is for your benefit.Isn't that nice?And I was like, you know, first of all, I did not ask for this.And second of all, like I'm living in a time in Americawhen all of these systems that are abusing every other demographicso that my life can be nicer are not working for me.I can't get a job.
01:00:32I'll never own a home.Like there's no point in me being complicit in all of this.I'm glad that we're back to having super depressing episodes.Yeah, I know.I mean, we did Jonestown last time, but that was a fun one.We're back to just like revolution and disaster now, right?And so in conclusion, the only way we can possibly learn from thisand be right about it is to destroy all corporations.
01:00:58Burn it down.
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