2 Bears, 1 Cave with Tom Segura & Bert Kreischer - Superheroes Should Be Flawed & Funny w/ James Gunn | 2 Bears, 1 Cave

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

SPONSORS: - Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes at https://ethos.com/BEARS. Application times may vary. Rates may vary. - Sponsored by BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at https://betterhelp.com/bears - Upgrade to ShipStation today to get a sixty-day free trial at https://www.shipstation.com/cave. - If you’re 21+, try VIIA! For 15% off AND a free gift with your first order head to https://viia.co/BEARS and use code BEARS! #viiaparter In this episode of 2 Bears, 1 Cave, James Gunn joins Tom Segura to talk filmmaking and the state of the entertainment industry. Gunn opens up about directing Superman, the pressures behind it, and the relief of its success. He also discusses his role as co-head of DC Studios, building a decade-long DC universe, and the bold choice to reshoot five and a half episodes of Peacemaker with a new Vigilante. Tom and James bond over grounded storytelling, casting decisions, and the balance between comedy, superhero films, and CGI. They also touch on the return of comedies to theaters and how the industry continues to evolve. 2 Bears, 1 Cave Ep. 307 https://tomsegura.com/tour https://www.bertbertbert.com/tour https://store.ymhstudios.com Chapters 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:45 - Peacemaker, El Tigre, & Grounded Aesthetics 00:08:24 - Big Screen Comedy 00:22:04 - Hitting The Creative Lottery With Superman 00:32:59 - The Writing Process & Juggling Big Budgets 00:41:16 - Special FX & Special Actors 00:47:57 - Batman 00:55:53 - Star Wars 01:00:12 - Guardians Of Fun 01:04:11 - Serious Filmmaking & "Ripley" 01:08:36 - Casting Highs & Lows Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

100% Cheers Are we have great news My regular co-host isn't here And so sitting in for him Is a prolific filmmaker A sentence you don't normally hear On this show

But we're super stoked to have them So give it up real big For James Gunn, everybody Oh, listen those claps I'm excited I don't think I can't feel virtue You should hear their normal claps It's usually like...

Really like, yeah, it's really sad. That was genuine. They're big fans, man. Wow, that's cool. Everybody here's a big fan. I'm a big fan of yours. Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

Well, thank you. I've contacted you on Twitter saying, how great you are. One of those things, I don't know. You're very kind. Just to reiterate to everybody, Peacemaker is on HBO or Max or Max HBO, whatever fucking name

they've chosen this week. It's airing Thursdays at 9. Wait, it comes out at a certain time? It comes out at 9 o'clock. Okay. You watch it at 9 o'clock. That's like old school, like when they give you a time. It is.

It is. I mean, obviously you can still watch it at 9.15 and 9, you know, 20. But at 9 is when it drops. It drops at 9. It's in its second season. I got to say, dude, I was, first of all, there's so many goddamn shows now. Like, you know, when we were growing up, they're like, there's four shows. Yeah.

Like, you just could just kind of go through shows. Yeah. You knew every movie because there was like a campaign for a movie. and like you know to catch up on things it's kind of mind-blowing it is a really fucking fun watch like peacemaker is really fun i was actually i got to say i was kind of blown away at um not just like what a fun ride it is but like watching sena he's so good he's so good yeah no in this season i mean so we did the first you know you know going way back the reason i wanted to do peacemaker was because of my relationship with John

working with him on the suicide squad. And I saw something in him that was so... I knew he was a good actor. And we did the first season of Peacemaker. And we worked on that a lot. And since then, he's gone off and he's acted in more things between the two seasons of Peacemaker

than he had before that. And the change in him from season one to season two and what he's capable of has been an incredible thing to watch. So it's notable to you. Oh, yeah. It's completely notable to me. He's, you know, really gone to a place where, I mean, there's a scene in episode one of this season where I'm like, you know, he's meeting his brother from another dimension who's dead in our dimension. And, you know, he walks out of the room. And I say, I think you break down crying, you know, John. I said, don't worry about really crying. Just like, you know, put your head in your hands and like, you know, heave. And immediately, he just the guy walks out, David Dedman, who plays his brother. walks out of the room, and John just has these tears spill down his face. And I'm like, what is going on? This is not the same guy who I worked with four years ago on the first

season, who was like had the scene where he was supposed to be crying in bed and he was terrified to do it because he'd never done anything like that in his life. He's just, he's much more comfortable in his own skin. Yeah. That's really cool to watch. Yeah. To see someone evolve and kind of like get better at their craft, basically. How do you, I mean, you, so you're acting now. I'm acting now. Yes. And how do you? And how do you? like that? How do you like the... Well, kind of like, I know that you moved to L.A. when you, like, when you first, this was to pursue music,

right? No, I'm... Or didn't you want to do you? No, I moved, no, I, to pursue music, I made the really wise choice of moving to Tucson, Arizona. Oh, that's the music haven. Yeah, the mecca, the mecca of, uh, of, uh, you know, early alternative rock. Um, no, I, I, I, I lived all over the place, but I moved to L.A. in 98, and I was, I was already a screenwriter by that time. Well, when I moved, I moved to L.A. in 2002, with the sole, like, the sole purpose was just to pursue acting and comedy acting, right? Like, like, I wanted to do comedies. You weren't doing

stand-up at that time. I wasn't doing stand-up. Okay. I had no, like, it wasn't even on the radar. Yeah. And when I moved there, I, I was like, what should I do? You know, like, how do I do this? And I knew, I discovered that a lot of these comedy actors were, they went through the ground so i was like that's what i'll do i'll just go to the groundlings yeah so i went there i'm in their school i'm doing the the levels and a couple people in my class were like you should try stand-up you would like stand-up and i was like i don't know what to do yeah and i kind of followed them doing spots and then stand-up just became something that i fell in love with meanwhile you try to keep like for me it was harder to keep like the the burner on here and do like i was like i kind

to feel like I have to be all in on stand-up. Right. So, you know, every time, once in a while, I would book something, a commercial or like five lines on this. But I was clearly on the stand-up path. Yeah. But you're kind of like, it never fades. You're like, I really wanted to do this.

Oh, that's amazing. So, like, then I did my series, and I just did a feature this summer that we just wrapped, and now we're going into season two. So now it's a, what's the feature? The feature is a, it's a script. It's called El Tigray. Okay. Which, uh...

That was the name of my grandmother's cat. Oh, really? El Tigray. El Tigray. It's a great name. That was the first cat I ever met. That's a great name for the cat. They wanted nothing to do with me. So I play a Mexican cartel leader named El Tigray. And I also play an American named Jeff, who's his doppelganger.

And so when Jeff goes on vacation with friends, the real El Tigray gets assassinated. And then people find Jeff and they're like, oh, you're El Tigray. Oh, cool. So he's in this, like, world. But the great thing was we assembled this incredible cast And the movie is played like very grounded Yeah, I love that I love that It's very fun I mean that's peacemaker too really

I mean it really is about like it's a superhero show But it's not really a superhero show It's about human beings And a couple of them happen to sometimes put on costumes Right And it's something that's treated You know as if that's all completely real You know of course with comments

and some outlandish characters. For sure. It's all grounded. The camera work is grounded. The way we acted is grounded. The performances, yeah. And it's like, it's great characters. And, you know, like, as an actor in this, I got to do a full range of things.

I got to be, like, a super violent guy. I got to break down crying. I got to have, like, fun. Like, I get to be the reactor in certain moments. And then you get to be, like, the person bringing the comedy. So it was the most fun I've ever had. That's what I mean, I love that aesthetic of an outlet. landish concept like that, or like peacemaker going to another dimension where there's another

version of himself, but played as if it's, you know, as if we were experiencing this. That's what makes the funny part funny, though. Yeah, and some, totally. Some, you know, execs and producers don't get that. And they're like, what if you were juggling in the scene? And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. Like, they're like, you know, something's funny.

You're like, no, it's funny that we're playing it like it's real. Yeah, but I love how those aesthetic. have sort of caught up with culture because if you remember way back like I remember when freaks and geeks when it came out on the air and I saw this show it was like I just happened to watch it like on it

the first time it was on TV I have no clue what year that was I guess late 90s yeah late 90s and I just happened and I'm like holy crap this is like so grounded and well done and truly funny not in a forced way but just

funny funny and about real kids and shot like a real know, show. Paul Feig was shooting it. And, um, and, and, and of course, nobody watched it and it lasted for, you know, not so many episodes. And everything was so broad back then. Yes. And little by little with, you know, with that, you know, and then the office and, you know, of course, you know, Sopranos and shield and all those shows coming out on TV. The aesthetics of what people want have changed and have gotten closer to what I liked, you know, when I was younger. And, you know, when I was younger. And, and was starving for it never really had enough of.

Do you think we'll have a, like, because everything kind of feels in entertainment and movies like pretty cyclical, you know, like things kind of go in this path, but like comedies, like studio comedies have become, feels like they're just, there's not really that many of them. I mean, that's the big question. I mean, people are, and like in the industry is like a studio head, people are always talking about, you know, you can, you know, obviously some types of movies are harder cells, right? yeah dramas they're harder cells because you can do them on TV and people can watch them at home with their family and they'll have you know everything has for me everything should be you know

could be a theatrical experience is going to be better but you lose less from a drama than you do from say a horror movie yeah where the audience is screaming or from a spectacle film where it's like so big and like knocked up did I screw up your mic here or like um you know, or for me, a comedy. Yeah. But comedies have sort of not been at, you know, the box office. There hasn't really been hit comedies. And that to me seems like the best type of, that's the movie.

I mean, I remember going to see like the hangover in the theater, which is just surrounded by people I didn't know. And, you know, you walk out of there. It's like family. It's like being a comedy show. It's the greatest experience. And so, you know, what is it? I think, I mean, I honestly think it's the material.

I think it is too. I think that there hasn't. been a good comedy that's gotten people to you know and there are maybe there have been some good comedies but when people go see a bad comedy and another bad comedy and another bad comedy then they don't want to go to the you know theater to see a comedy the same with superhero movies like that's why you know you know you know it's a harder marketplace and one of the reasons is people feel tricked yes you know this show is sponsored by ethos I got life insurance when I was 32. I remember having an uncomfortable conversation with my dad. I was at a coffee

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mattress with a medium firmness. The perfect balance between plush softness and solid support. Head to avocadogreenmatress.com today and save up to 20% on avocado's certified organic mattresses. Avocado, dream of better. They loved going to see, you know, whatever that movie was that got them into superhero movies, whether it was Iron Man or Spider-Man 2 or Guardians or whatever. And then, you know, they go and then they're like, well, this is really just a pale imitation

of that thing that I liked. And then they go again and they're like, oh, this one's even worse. Yeah. And they're like, well, shoot, I'll wait for, you know, HBO Max. I think you're totally right. I think that, like, with comedy, too, there's this thing where when you see a trailer for some of these comedies coming out. Yeah. You're watching the trailer and you're like, first of all, I know every beat of this.

Like there's no, you always have to have some element of surprise, right? So you like, you know the beats and you're like, this is, they're put in the funniest stuff in this trailer and it looks like shit. and what I always think is I always think about a director because I go you need I think in all filmmaking you need like a final

like this is your POV this is you at the helm and some of these big studio comedies you can just sense that there's 10 voices being like it's this it doesn't feel like it's one guys or girls vision of like

this is the movie and also they lack story like what I like about the idea that you told me about is that there's an idea There's an idea that people can hook their, you know, hats on. So having that central idea that you can put in a trailer and people will understand is good. Yeah.

But I do, I also think that unlike a horror movie, which is kind of easy to sell in a trailer because all of us get scared in the same way, people laugh at different things. And a movie like, again, I'm going to go back to The Hangover because I think it's one of the best comedies ever. That has a central premise that I'm talking about. And then it has, you know, comedy for, like real broad comedy that's just for everybody. Mike Tyson with the Tiger. And then a lot of stuff that's a lot more subtle for the people who really like, you know, nuanced comedy.

Yeah. And so it works for everybody in the audience. Well, how do you cut that trailer? It can be a little bit difficult because you've got to be able to sell that to a mass audience. And people's, you know, likes the kinds of comedy they like is more varied. than the type of horror they like. Sure. That's,

you know, so it can be a little bit harder to cut a comedy trailer. Does it interest you at all to like a, I mean, you have very funny material in your movies. Yeah. But like to do a comedy that is outside of superhero world, like,

like a hangover type story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it would be a lot of fun to do that. I mean, I think there's always an emotional angle to whatever I do. Yeah. And I don't,

I mean, people often think of, you know the Guardians movies is part comedy I never had I never thought of I make myself laugh when I'm writing but I never I mean I can't say that completely because I did have a lot of you know

links with comedy when I first came to town and I started my you know career in a lot of ways every year I'd write a different comedy pilot for whatever network I was you know getting work from sure but you know but originally when I started writing and people were like,

oh my God, it's so funny and they're laughing. I didn't really, I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I knew it was funny when I wrote it, but that wasn't like the point of what I was writing. Yeah, so like a... Your point was more, what, the story and the emotional connection to it? Yeah, the characters and, you know, the fun of it, whatever.

And I think that just naturally it becomes, it's funny because I'm funny, I guess. Yeah, you are. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's really funny stuff. Yeah. But, you know, laughing in my real life is important. I mean, it's like, you know, joking around, making jokes.

Like, that's my personality in real life. And also, that's the other thing. I mean, I get this thing sometimes from fans online. Why, you know, why is peacemaker so funny? This is, superheroes are serious stuff, which of course is silly in the first place. Yeah. But superheroes are serious stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but people laugh, man.

People say dumb stuff. Yeah. People make jokes. People laugh. Like, that's, if you have a movie, that is deadly serious all the way. I worked in a hospital when I was young. I was like surrounded by people dying

and people being brought in with gunshot wounds and I'd have to move all the bodies in the morgue. And I, we just joked constantly. Yeah. That gallows humor, that's that thing. That's how to deal with it. So I don't care what kind of thing you're working on. People deal with that stuff through joking.

So pretending like if something serious, there's no humor in it, I mean, to me, that's just a crock of shit. Like, that's, but that is, that, that's probably the number one complaint I get. That's hilarious. Because I actually think you do, like, there's a great balance to it, which I think is kind of key to this kind of world of, you know, you want your superhero to be, you know, heroic and, like, badass in his moments. But the balance of it is, it's just the same thing like what, I think it was Daniel Craig that brought that up when he was, he was cast his bond. and then as the movies evolved,

he was making the point that, like, well, he should have his more, like, flaws and these real moments. Otherwise, it's just a cool dude walking in every room. And you're like, all right, he's cool. That was always, I mean, that was always the difficulty for me with accessing James Bond. I always loved James Bond.

Sure. But I never got into the world of James Bond like I did into the world of, say, Star Wars or, you know, DC Comics or whatever. Because he was, it's just a character that's just constantly, you know, everything's pretty good. Yeah. No flaws. And it was really Craig that made that character more interesting.

I mean, also the filmmaker. I mean, it was not just him. Yeah. So it was, yeah, that was the thing for me with James Bonnie. It was just a little too perfect. There's a couple of superhero movies like that, too, that if the character doesn't have any flaws or depth, I just don't care. Yeah. And I think a lot of times you don't realize that you don't care until you see that. You're like, oh, there's just not, there's not. What's there to access? I don't know how to relate to this person, quote unquote, because there's no, there's nothing there behind the eyes. It's just this perfect paragon of virtue. Yeah, that doesn't, I know, it doesn't connect with as many people, I don't think. Yeah, yeah. They tended to do that a lot with female characters in the early days.

of superhero stuff, you know, because they didn't want to make them bad in any way. And they wanted them to be good examples of everything. But I'm like, my man, you know, Star Lord gets to be a jerk. Like, he's a jerk. Rocket raccoon. He's a man. He's a jerk. Yeah.

You know, so I, you know, like, you know, I always thought that Nebula and Gomorra and the other female character should have as many flaws as those male characters. That's, I think that's, yeah, that's, I really hope that, um, that we do see, though, more comedies, come back in theaters. Me too. I mean, I think we will. I do think that will happen. I really do. You know, as long as the theaters don't close from nobody going out there to see movies. But I think, but I don't think they are. I mean, I think in certain ways, theater culture is booming. We did have quite a few hit movies this year. Yeah. And the experience of going to the movies is things like Minecraft, a movie that a lot of people don't like. But the fact that people made this experience out of it.

Yeah. It was really cool for me to see it. It reminded me of what, you know, I saw the older kids doing when they went to see Rocky Horror Pictures show when I was a kid. Yeah, my kids flipped for Minecraft. Did they? They loved it.

Yeah. Yeah, my nephew came home and said, that's my favorite movie of all time. I'm like, your favorite movie of all time. It's like, yeah. He says it about half the movies. He's like, tell that guy he was amazing in it. Oh, okay.

I'll let him know. I told him. Who was it? I told Mamoa. Oh, Mamma. Yeah, yeah. My son said, amazing. He's like, good.

Do you tell me you thought he sucked? Yeah, I was like, I didn't, I wasn't impressed at all. Momoa's in Supergirl next summer. Oh, sweet. He plays Lobo. Oh, he's great, man. Oh, yeah, he's a great guy, yeah. He's great. I was gonna, I wanted to ask, like, do you feel, because it's like, you know, you're in it right now where you, I mean, you, you hit the fucking, I mean, I don't mean like it's luck,

but like it's like the lottery to be yeah filmmaking you're the head of a studio yeah the the first thing I think of when I think of that I'm like that's so cool yeah then I think I'm like oh that's a lot of pressure like meaning that like these franchises mean so much to people like you you know like you want to honor the the character and their story and this audience that loves it and then the next thing I'm like god damn it's a lot of work it's a lot of work it's a lot of work like I just when this job first came up I was really torn when it first came up

it came up outside of the context of Peter Saffron and I doing it together and that was like no way I don't want to do Kevin Feige's job like that's just not my thing and then it came up Peter and I doing it together and I just I knew that for the next few years I just would do nothing else but this job.

But I also knew that it was an opportunity that no one had ever had in terms of being a creative at the head of a studio. So I had to say yes. And I'm happy I said yes, but it's been a rough few years because of that. And I'm not sure it's my wife's favorite choice that I've made in our lives together.

I could see that. So it's, I think that I really, you know, it was tough. And it was really tough. And I feel, but I did feel a certain amount of relief after Superman came out. Yeah. Because that was a rough road making that movie. That was probably the toughest time I ever had making anything. Even from like development through production, everything?

No. Really just. And, you know, it was hard because it was so, you know, high pressure. Yeah. But it really wasn't post. It was like I was trying to make a comic book movie. And as much as it sounds strange, I don't feel like I've ever really made a comic book movie. I feel like the Guardians movies were space fantasies.

And the Marvel was an asterisk on that. Like, it was really space fantasy first. It was more based on the, space stuff that I loved like Farscape or Star Wars or whatever than anything else. And so with this, I was really taking on a character that people loved that was getting a lot of attention and could go a lot of different ways. And so I just, I felt a lot of pressure. And when it came out and it was embraced by by far the majority of the audience and, you know, did well at the box office, it was a big relief. Well, because now I'm like,

I looked at Peter and I remember when like the reviews, when the reviews came out. And we were on the plane flying to China. So the movie hadn't come out yet. I have no idea what the reviews are going to be like. And I'm playing Bellatro on my little phone as I'm flying to China. Peter Safferan's a couple seats behind me and he goes, the reviews are dropping in two minutes. And I go, oh, my God.

Don't, why did you tell me that? So I go up and I'm playing Bellatro. and I'm playing like a game for like a half an hour and I'm like oh my god this must be a this must be a nightmare because Peter hasn't come up and said anything and told me anything like oh this is this is

this is terrible this is my brain this is terrible oh my god this is worst thing ever it is embarrassing oh you know and and then finally I'm like I'm not going to go back until I finish this game it was a good game I finished the game and then I'm like Like, you know, having that great willpower. And then I walk back and I'm like, what's up?

And he's like, we're certified fresh. I'm like, what the hell, dude? We're saying, why didn't you tell me that? He's like, it just happened. We're certified fresh in a half an hour. And I was like, I was really relieved. And like, it wasn't necessarily, it was joyful, but it was mostly just this relief of like this energy and this drive that I had been holding in my body forever. Yeah.

Because this was the. proof of concept because now we have all these other projects that are related to Superman. Superman directly, you know, leads into peacemaker. Yeah. Peacemaker directly leads into the next movie in the Superman

saga. Superman directly leads into, you know, Supergirl. Totally attached to, you know, all the other things we're doing. And if it wasn't, if it didn't work, it would have been a nightmare. Yeah. And so I was hugely relieved. Hulently

believed. And then I felt like, okay, now I can play. Now I can have fun. I'm so excited to do the next movie because I know so much more what I'm doing with the character, who the character is, who Lex Luthor is, all of this stuff in a way that I didn't when I started that movie. You got great performances in that. It's a fantastic group of people. I mean, David Corenswatt's just a movie star and I knew that from the beginning. And Nick Holt is incredible. And so. The movie is really good, man. It's really good and it's really fun. And I love when people tell me this.

This is the rare time that I'll... My wife was like, make sure you tell him. And you're like, huh? She's like, make sure you tell him. I don't like any of these movies, these types of movies. And I love this movie. And I'm like, I will definitely tell him. Oh, I love that.

I love to hear that. I mean, because that is... And I hear that, I mean, I don't want to say. I hear that pretty often about my movies. Like, oh, my grandma loves Garvey. It's the galaxy. I'm like, really? Okay, cool.

Great. Yeah, she loves that little Groot. She loves Rocket or whatever. And I'm like, that's, that is, that's really what it's about for me. I want to create. And it is. It's so weird. People think I'm, you know, whatever.

Because I go from making something like Peacemaker, which has a bunch of flopping penises in the first episode of season to something like, you know, Superman, which is made for everyone. Yeah. And I don't think of it as like, I'm not holding a. anything back when I'm making Superman. I'm simply speaking to a different audience than I'm speaking to everyone. And to me, a movie or a TV show is a conversation that you're having with the audience, which is one of the ways why people get all worked up about AI.

And I think there's, you know, there's good and bad things about AI for sure. But one of the things that people forget is that people, the fact that I'm on this show means that people like, you know, the communication that they have with the artist. The fact that this show is so popular is because the audience likes the communication that they have with you. Right. And a movie is that. It's a conversation with the audience.

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please support our show and tell them that we sent you enhance your every day with Viya and people like that and that's how I feel about Superman versus peacemaker or whatever I'm just in one I'm talking to everybody and in another one I'm saying

hey this is this is for the adult it's like boy talk at the back sure it's a little different when the ladies walk in the room you're like hey shoulders back yeah yeah do you do you enjoy the writing process Like, do you enjoy writing?

Somebody asked me this the other day. And, you know, I, I, it's a grind. It's a, it's a grind. But I'd say, yeah, I'd say I do enjoy it. Because, like, obviously you're writing, like, so many different things. Too much, yeah. But so you get an idea cooking. Are you, like, do you go, you know, outline note cards?

Like, how do you actually approach writing your material? It always changes, and that's one of the ways I keep it fresh. But the main, you know, usually what happens, like, with a movie. is I spend time, I'm usually like doing something else is my main thing. So like, for instance, working on the new script with Lex and Superman, I was, you know, promoting Superman. I'm doing all this other stuff. You know, I'm editing Superman when I started it, you know.

And so I don't have the time to fully commit myself to it. Because once I start writing the actual script, nothing else exists in my life. And so I'm just writing down ideas. is short synopsies like real simple first act second act third act trying to find the center of what the story is you know who the who the antagonist is who's a protagonist you know just dealing with these different things and i went through a couple of different things like i i wrote a treatment that was very different from what the the treatment ended up being that i you know gave to peter saffron he liked but i i read it and i was like there's something missing you know

And so I just go through this process of discovery in which the doors are completely open. I never lock in to anything at that point because locking in at that point is really the death of the creative process. Because I've done it before where I lock in on this idea. And then I find that everything else doesn't work so well around that one idea. So I play, play, play, play. Then after, you know, time stewing, I feel like I have that thing. thing and then I sit down and I write the treatment and the treatment is really worked out it's you know like this the man of tomorrow treatment was you know 65 pages you know eventually I put

photos in there as reference from the comics and different things and then I give that to my select group of people and and then they give give me notes and then I take them in the ones that I want and don't take in the ones I don't. And then I get to writing the, I rewrite the treatment so it fits. It fits, yeah. And then I start writing the screenplay off of that treatment.

And then I finish that usually in less than two weeks. Wow. So, but the big thing that helps is that that treatment is so thorough. The treatment is really thorough. And that doesn't mean that that screenplay that I've written in two weeks is the screenplay. Right. Because then I take.

another bit of time um rewriting that and that's really that's once i'm done with that screenplay that's the fun part then i'm going and i'm improving and making it better you know and then i finished that draft of the screenplay and you know i give that which i you know did with all the dc studios folks and then they give me notes on that which is always the you know fun and terrible part of the process you know this time you know the movie works but there are things that i'm still doing to improve it and then I'm going to, you know, now I'm finishing up the next draft of that. Wow.

I wonder if, because I was thinking about this, because I've just come off of two productions. Yeah. And you always, before you are actually, like, producing, when you hear budgets, they just kind of, you just go like, oh, like, that's a lot of money. Yeah. But when you're doing productions, the one thing that you think of, when you think of big budgets, you think about time, right? So, like, I just came off of this feature that we shot, we had 20,

shooting days and you realize that everything every day is like this is wildly important and oh it's so hard and there's like nothing you can do like we just got to get this shit and so when I think about like big budgets I always go like now when I watch everything I'm like I wonder how many days they had like that's how I watch everything now I'm like so I was watching Superman I was like God I wonder how much time they had to do this

well I'll tell you I it seems like we have a lot of time I think we shoot and like we usually do 91 days and then we you know something like 90 91 days and then we set up outside a few days for pickups right as I always find you have to that you have little things that you want to you know screw a little tighter a little looser um and so that's how much time we have but the thing that's different about me is I don't have second unit oh so I really I shoot all of everything everything um and every movie i go uh i got to have some second unit this time and because i really have a guy Wayne Deglisch who is my stunt coordinator who i really trust and like um and then

i keep stealing second unit from him yeah um Wayne this time it's gonna be different i swear man um so uh you know but it's uh yeah but i really so it is 91 days whereas you know you take a movie like a recent dz movie before we were involved was like i think they shot for 91 days but then there was like 60 days of second unit god really yes i don't even know how you afford to do it because do those 90 or 91 take into account like um just whatever going wrong like in other words you have a big set piece and there's a lot of action or or whatever and that day just inevitably in production things like does it take into account that we might have to do it without a doubt so the guy who does all my scheduling is

He's been my AD for many years, and now he is the head of production at D.C. Okay. And now he produces, you know, our movies with me and Peter. And Lars, you know, he's been making, you know, he did, you know, Invengers and all, he was an AD on all the biggest movies ever, not all of them, but many of them. Sure. And he really knows what goes wrong and what doesn't. But also over the years, he's learned what I do differently, which is a lot.

So, for instance, you know, I was way under budget on every movie I made up until Guardians 3 was the only one I wasn't. But I was under budget on Superman, too. Really? Yeah. And it's like I just, because I'm, I really care about it. I started making movies for like 250 grand. Yeah. So I know what it means.

I don't like waste. And I don't like keeping the crew there for endless hours. So we'd say, you know, we shoot, you know, whatever, 12 hour days. And then we're done. Like I don't ever, you know. If I have overtime, maybe once a whole shoot, we go two hours into overtime. Like, but other than that, I never go. I rarely ever go, you know, more than 10, 15 minutes into, you know, over the schedule.

Yeah. So like those kinds of things. are things you learn about a filmmaker, and that is not the norm. And so they have learned over the years that when I have a schedule, I usually stick to that schedule pretty closely. I'm sure they love that. They can count on it. Yeah.

And I have, you know, VFX, you know, a supervisor who I've worked with on many movies now, he tells me the amount of shots I have. I say, in this sequence we'll need less or in this sequence we'll need way more. Steph, you got to figure that out because this is how many shots they are. I storyboard, you know, I draw every single frame of the movie, so I know what the shots are, which I change, but not enough that it's going to make everything crazily different. And so, yeah, so sometimes you always go over on some sequences and under on other sequences, and Lars has learned that over the years. Yeah, that's fascinating. I also think about, too, like, how good special effects are now.

You know, like when you watch things, like I was watching Superman and you're like, man, it's, it's, it's, you can't believe what you're seeing. Yeah. And then I feel like there's like a, I was going like back. When's the cut off of like this is buy up? Like you buy it still. And I feel like the one where I'm like, oh, it's still like, because everything, you know, every year it gets like a little better. I feel like minority report. You go like this is, now it's like 20 years old or something.

Yeah. But it still looks good. Like the effects look good. Yeah. And if you start going further back from that, you're like, this is, yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I think that's the reason why superhero movies, people are like, oh, why did superhero movies all become the rage? Yeah.

And it's simply visual effects. I mean, Iron Man came out, and that was like the first B-list superhero that came out, that was a box office hit. Yeah. The reason is because the visual, I mean, the movie was really good. Yeah. But the visual effects were also believable. And, you know, you think about the stuff that we saw in the 80s. and the 90s with superheroes

and it was like ridiculous looking you can't believe it you can't fully put yourself into that character there's one shot and this is not a superhero movie but if you watch the fugitive yeah which is a great movie yeah yeah yeah that style movie is also not really

done anymore no that's like a it's almost like a procedural feature yeah and it's really it's really good Harrison Ford jumps off a train yeah it's just one shot and you're like what the fuck is that Because it's like the green screen is so, it looks like, it looks like a green screen from 20 years prior. It's like an insert and you're like, what is that?

And it's so goofy when he jumps off of it, especially the like the moving shot. You know, this is a still, I think, but it is, it's really bad. When you're watching it, you're like, this is really bad. Oh, wow. And I, every time I've, if that movie's on, it's like one of those movies that you'll just pick up if it's on. you're like, yeah, I'll watch this for a while. Yeah. That scene comes, I'm like, oh, my God, I can't even.

Yeah, that's a great meme that people should use under post about movies where they don't like the visual effects. It's really bad, dude. Yeah, I still, I, you know, there are things that I'm really impressed by and then things I think that we can improve a lot. I have a really, really, an eye with visual effects. That's, well, yours has to be like so developed. Yeah, I mean, like.

And never looks real to me. So the one thing I will say, you know, in Superman, the things I'm really proud of, there's some work by FramStore who did crypto in the early scenes and in some later scenes too, and who did the Superman robots when they weren't practical. And it's very hard to tell that it's not real. Really? I think so. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, that stuff with crypto and the snow in the beginning. Well, even like, I mean, I have no idea how any of this shit's done.

But, like, when, who's the Spanish actress in Superman? That's one of Lex's, like, bad guys. Yeah, yeah. Gab, like, the way, like, her, the effects of, like, her hands turning into shit and, like, morphing. Yeah. I mean, you watch that and you're like, I don't know how this is happening, but it's so believable. Yeah. It's so, like, visually impressive.

Yeah, I'll get it better still. Yeah, I'm sure you will. I mean, there's still, there she is. There she is. She's the best. She's about the best person in the world, by the way. She is, she fulfilled, you know, her and Nick Holt both, you know, are a testament to the fact that I don't know why, but the best villains are the nicest people. I believe that. You know? Also, the best, I was explaining to people on the set about this actor playing, he's dumb, right? The character's dumb. I'm like, you get that that guy's smart, right? And these people, friends of mine, they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you can't play dumb if you're dumb you don't you're too fucking dumb yeah to do it like you have to know how i'm instantly going to i got there's got to be somebody i know that was good at playing dumb yeah playing dumb is takes intelligence you know like to actually have it read well yeah um you know that we were talking

about pickups do you do you know that um have you heard that james cameron matt damon's story do you know that it's really it's kind of fascinating so i heard matt damon tell this story where he got a call from james cameron and he goes hey i'm uh i'm doing this new movie avatar and he tells he goes i don't need a movie star okay like he tells him i don't need it doesn't need a star yeah but i'd like to offer you the lead um because i i just think you would be great in this role you know and like the movie will work without a star but i'm give i would offer it to you and i'll give you 10% of the revenue right and um matt damon tells him he's like well, like, I really appreciate that.

Technically, I'm available, but we're going to be having just wrapped the last born, like one of the born trilogy or whatever franchise movies. And he goes, and we always do pickups. And so I don't want to put that production in a bind by signing on to do yours and knowing, I just know we're going to have, like, especially because, you know, it's crazy action. He's like, we always have, like, quite a. few pick up stuff. So I just don't think

I'll be available. And so James told him, well, I really respect that you are showing your production that and that's fine. I'll just go. And then Matt Damon goes, it would have been about 350 million that I would have made. I was like, God damn. That's a crazy amount of money.

I wonder what James Cameron meant by 10%. That's my interest. Because there's no way. That's his story. I don't know. I'm like, that's fucking wild. I'm going to have to ask him about that next time I see him. I don't. that's a pretty I mean pretty sweet offer though right

if it's yeah I just I'm not going to say I doubt the story yeah well but Cameron's not stupid please fill me in if you have the answer I will I will I'll let you know I'll let you know but I do believe that he was offered the role and was offered a great amount of money

that he would have made off of it you know much more than he made off but listen born ultimatum is one of the best action movies of all times so there you go the born stuff is so fun dude And also, you know what? He can still pay his bills. He's fine.

He's doing just fine. Yeah. I've seen... I know how much you made off of one of his last movies, so... It was okay? I'll tell you afterwards. Okay. Okay.

Cool. Do you... How much time do you guys spend, like, as the, you know, the heads of this planning out where D.C. goes next. Like, is that a big... Yeah. It feels like it would be a big conversation. Well, I mean, one of the things that we did was when we first took over, I had written up what

God, what point was what? But I had written up like what the first shows were supposed to be and then, but where the story eventually went. And so then we met with David Zazloff was one who hired us. We told him what the basic plan was. He was into that.

We got hired. He was the only one that knew that. And then we told Mike DeLuke and Pam Abdi and they were into it. And Casey Boyce, who's out of HBO Max. So we had a basic plan, but then I hired a group of writers

who I really respected who came in and then we kind of worked out the whole story. Now, some things have changed since then for various reasons, but the basic thrust of the big story is the same.

That is what started in Superman, continues in peacemaker, goes to the next Superman movie. And then we'll continue from the movie after that, and then after that. So there was always, there was this big, the bigger plan that we came up with. It feels like it's got to be like a, I mean, with everything you have and just the scale. It's like, you have to think in terms of like decade, right? Like 10 years.

It's like a decade. Yeah. And maybe a little less. But yeah, but like it's very loose too. I want to be, you have to be careful because there were certain projects that were a part of that plan. That like, because my other rule is that I'm not going to greenlight anything without having a screenplay that I love. And there were other things that just didn't, haven't worked yet. And so there's, you got to be, you know, able to have the big picture in mind, but then also be willing and be able to shift anytime you need to.

Yeah. So the pinpoints are the same, but some of the specifics have changed. I have a heavy hitting question for you. You got it. Will we ever get a blue-gray Batman? Is that what you want? It's just what everybody wants. I don't, it's not everybody.

No, it's not everybody. It's not everybody because I have people, I have somebody saying, please give us this Batman, and then they put a picture of the blue-gray Batman on threads or whatever, and then somebody else says, you know, you're a piece of shit. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, he's a piece of shit because he likes them. He likes a color.

That is a pretty, you have a pretty hard. That's the thing. There's a religious aspect to so much of this stuff that's very uncomfortable because, you know, should Batman have white eyes? That's a big subject of conversation. Like that's a big combo? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's like, guys, like, that's really what matters.

But those are the things I care about. Should it be yellow? Should he have the yellow crest around the bat? You know, all of that sort of stuff. And none of those things are what's most important to me. No, of course. is like the character of the story

and I think that we have a really, really good story now for what's happening with bat bat dude I'm so stoked yeah that was like for me I think

age wise like I introduction to super so of course I saw the Christopher Reeve Superman as a kid and you're and you're mesmerized

right by he's flying it's the whole thing but the funny thing was Batman the Michael Keaton Batman yeah that movie I realized, like, in retrospect, it made me feel like I had adult taste. Do you know what I mean?

Like, as a kid, you're like, I get what you're talking about. I'm a fucking grown-up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this shit, I like this guy. Who's this? Jack Nicholson, he's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, you're like, you're like, oh, she's hot.

Yeah, I like her. I like her, yeah. I like adult women. Yeah, I like adult women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Keaton was awesome in it. Like, that introduction to that world. And I watched it recently.

and it definitely it feels like a little more like I wouldn't want to say cartoonish but you know it's such a it's it is a separate like the tone in my memory is not the tone of the film I totally understand what you're saying

but I was like that was like I was like so in where I was like I love to shit you like Batman before that or was that what got you into Batman? No I did like Batman before that and I even because you know as a kid they were playing even the old Adam West.

Oh, yeah, totally. You know, so I was like, oh, Batman's cool. Batman, I was like Batman Robin. I thought it was like cool character. I had some comic books, but, you know, that movie for me, I was like, I didn't realize this is, I think, I forget what year this is, but. 89 was the first Batman. So that's perfect, because I'm 10.

So if you're 10 years old, you go, oh, this is a genre of film? Like, I didn't even know this is a thing, really. Yeah. And it just catapulted into always wanting to see Batman's. because like that was that set the bar for me of like this is awesome yeah that's what i think that's one of the the fun things about batman though is that there are so many expressions of batman that are cool yes and different ways to access that character is one of the ways in which he's so iconic so i don't think it's a matter of the blue and the gray or the black batman i think

both those things are really cool. I like the detective Batman but I also really like the fighter Batman that's just the brute that's fighting. I like the I like the silly 50s Silver Age Batman

with Batmite and that's kind of closer to what the original Batman TV show is like. I like all of these different versions of Batman but I will say in the same way that was your experience with Batman that was my experience with Batman too as a kid because I'm older than you reading

the sort of early 70s Neil Adams Batman comics that were much darker and grittier and I was like oh I like this Batman you know I had seen like the sillier Batman I'd seen the sillier Batman on TV and I'm like oh this is gritty cool Batman and that was the thing that made me feel more like

if not an adult, at least a teenager when I was eight or nine years old. It makes you feel like a little more grown up. Yeah, and I really liked that about, I really still like that, that version of, I like that version of Batman that was sort of Batman that we've never seen. There it is right there.

See that one on the upper left corner? That's the one. That one there? That, that's it, man. That was my favorite story. That was in a compilation of Batman comics that I read. And I just thought it was the greatest ever. and it was Batman supernatural Batman too which is something we've never seen Batman

in like a sort of supernatural environment Were you like a huge consumer of Like were you like voracious It was my life It was your life It was my life So this is like destiny is what it feels like Kind of

Well I think a lot of people had that Is their life that are not the head of DCCDs That's true But it's cool that the person who is the head Does come from that DNA Oh yeah yeah I mean like I I spent so much of my child

at skipping school, staying home and drawing comics. And one of the main things I drew were these characters in comics with Batman. So I drew like DC Comics and I had all my own characters who I like to have fighting with teaming up with Batman. That's so cool, dude.

When you, I'm a big Guardians fan. I mean, I think obviously a lot of people, like that's the thing where you're like, this is like such a fun ride. Thanks. And you're a big, Star Wars fan too, right? So when you're... Not as big as I am a comic book fan. But Star Wars was revolutionary for me when the first one came out. Like it really opened me up. I just, and I, you know,

for the last, my kids are nine and seven, two boys. And for the last several years, every, you know, you go like, hey, I want you to check this out. I would bring up Star Wars. They're like, we don't want to see that shit. I was like, what? And I was always like, no, they're like, no. Like these were always like, I don't want to see it. And I was, I would try and they would just, And then this summer, I was like, you guys want to watch Star Wars? And they were like, yeah, okay. And I sat them down and we went through New Hope, Empire, Jedi. And then we went to whatever the first.

Phantom Menace. And then Attack of Clown. The funny thing was they watched those first three locked in. Locked in. They were like, who's this guy? And I'm like, that's Darth Vader. What kind of fucking name is that? I'm like, it's this guy who lives in outer space.

I don't know. Like, they were, like, questioning everything, but then, like, really into the dark side and good. And, like, you realize, like, the lessons of the movie, like, it really impacted them. Yeah, it's really, yeah. And then we got to the newer ones, and I couldn't keep them in their seats. Like, they would just get up and walk around. They're slower movies. They're slower movies.

I mean, Phantom Medicine in particular is much slower. Much lower, but those first three, they really got into it. Yeah. But I'm wondering. Did they see Rogue One? no we didn't make it up to rogue one yet they should see that I'll try to get them back in I think road one is great

it's great it's like up there with my favorites Rogue one is awesome yeah when you're making or you know feeling that I know that George Lucas was influenced like big time

I think Kurosawa but he always references Joseph Campbell yeah mythology do you like think of mythology and everything as well I mean I think of Joseph Campbell because my background is I have a MFF in writing, in prose writing. And I've always, I've studied all of that, you know, the hero's journey and, you know,

those books made a big difference to me as a writer, you know, kind of finding things that are innate and storytelling no matter what. But, yeah, I'm into all that stuff. But I also think, also got to be open for whatever is not that. And when you, I was, because it's like a space fantasy guardians I'm saying, right? Like it's that whole world. Do you have to like entertain the idea of like, is this too much? Like, they're not the same movie at all.

But does that enter your mind when you're making something that like this is a star was influenced? No, because like when I started working on one of the things that inspired me to do guardians when he first asked me, you know, when they first asked me if I was interested, I wasn't certain at first. And the first thing that sort of snapped in was Rocket Story. And the second thing that snapped in was this could be Star Wars for kids to allow kids to feel like I felt when I saw Star Wars. But it's many years later. And that means that that voice is much different than what it was when Star Wars came out. So it always felt innately different from Star Wars while having the same impact. You know, the same impression.

You want people to have an emotional connection. I want them to have that feeling of magic. I just, you know, for me, it was like I remember being a kid when the first Star Wars came out. I was, I had never seen a PG-rated movie before. And I was in the grocery store and I saw People magazine with like C3PO and Chubacca on it. And I was like, oh my God, I want to inject that into my brain. Yeah. And so that was that excitement.

knew that I could do that with kids with Rocket and Groot. Yeah. I mean, they're, yeah, you connect. Yeah. Like, like, and the humor's there. Like, you get huge laughs and like, it's, it's so fucking cool, man. How did, like, when

they pitch you this or this is presented to you, is it that you connected to those characters, and that's what drew your interests? They, they had already announced, Marvel had already announced that they were doing Guardians of the Galaxy

and they had shown an image, they had announced it at Comic-Con already, and they had shown an image that one of their concept artists had drawn of the Guardians.

And so that's what they pitched to me. And so I went you know, I honestly at first I was like, I mean, first of all, I didn't really think I was being taken that seriously. I didn't know how seriously they were taking me because my movie before that had cost

$2 million. But I was driving, but my first reaction was honestly like, I don't know about this. Like, it seems kind of like Bugs Bunny in the middle of Star Wars, and I just don't know about it. Like, I just, I don't, you know, I don't want to write the first Marvel bomb, which is what every article said before the movie came out. And I was like, I just don't know. But then once I said, okay, we'll take it. Let's just like forget all those voices for a second. I'm like, if Rocket was real, this goes back to what we're talking about initially. If Rocket was real, what would he be? And I realized he would just be the saddest creature in the universe. And then he was

this innocent little animal that was turned into something he shouldn't be. And that that was this incredibly melancholy center of what otherwise would seem like this kind of peppy happy franchise which is what I think the whole trilogy is about that moment and Rocket's journey through those three movies who to me was always the protagonist of those three movies and he was the one I related to that's it that's the original piece of art so you see how it's like it looks like a skeleton guy yeah I don't know what's going on with Rocket

Gomorra doesn't even look like they totally thought her out but Star Lord And this is the first thing they present That's what they showed to me Yeah yeah yeah and I don't know I mean I just thought I mean that's a really cool piece of art But it does look a little bit

Like something on a serial box rocket Yeah So I yeah and that's that's That's what started out But once I came upon that Then I was off to the races It was like I couldn't stop I was crazy

And then I just You know Went nuts What do you do you have Do you do anything for fun Because I don't feel like you have any time well I talked earlier about I played Bellatra on my phone I remember that when I'm on airplanes

I have a group of guys who I've been friends with for 20 years and when I'm in L.A. we meet once a week that's cool yeah one of them I've been friends with for longer since 95 he's been my best friend he's in most of my movies Stevie Black Art oh yeah And, you know, I smoke cigars. Nice.

Fuck, yeah. You smoke cigars? Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so I do some things. I really, I don't, I have a hard time getting joy from anything that doesn't work. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, so, I mean, I relate. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a problem in my life. Yeah. You know, I'm trying to figure out ways that I can have fun doing other things. I mean, I take my dogs for a walk once a day. That's fun. Yeah, sure.

I guess. I mean, it's calming. Yeah, I get that. I don't think most people are like, you know what I do for fun? I walk my dog. I walk my dogs. Yeah, but I get it. On our property in Atlanta.

How do you feel, okay, I got to ask you a couple things. How do you avoid? Because I think this happens to people who, you know, achieve great success, especially in comedy. where then they go, I'm going to take myself real seriously now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to name. There's countless examples.

Names some. I'll tell you after when we talk about Matt Damon's salary. Matt Damon's money and that. But you know what I mean? Like you're in, because you're obviously like a very talented filmmaker, but there's also comedy is a big part of what you're doing. There's comedy in everything that I've watched. And I'm like, yeah, like, how do you, do you, you know what I mean? do you need to be reminded

or do you think it's just innately in you to not, it doesn't seem like you take yourself in your material too serious. Like you still honor it

and your story still is I mean I honestly like I want to say I want to sit here Tom and look good to you and say oh I don't take it seriously. I know you take the work seriously.

But I take it so seriously. I mean I take the characters so seriously. Like I really, I believe in the characters. I cry every time I, you know, like there's a,

you know, you know, episode six of of Peacemakers coming out and there's a scene in that that I cry every single time I see this scene. I get moved in the first episode of Peacemaker when I see,

you know, so there's stuff in there I take really seriously. Superman, I, it's, there's a lighter touch to it. But I take the characters really seriously. You know, I really, I love those characters. Yeah.

So I do take it seriously. I just... I guess I meant like you don't take you don't take yourself and what you're doing so seriously that you... I don't give a shit about being perceived

as a serious filmmaker. There we go. I mean, if I had my druthers would it be like, oh yeah, like people like me like in the same way

they like some serious guy? Maybe, I don't know, but like it's just, I'm here to play and make money. Like that's, those are the two things that I like.

Yeah. You know, and so it's like I'm just, you know, trying to create stories that people can become involved in. Yeah. And create big stories and myths, modern myths.

That excites me so much. But I don't care so much about being a filmmaker, frankly. And you know what? I'm not the same kind of like, you know, I talk to my friend Edgar Wright. I love Edgar. He's a total filmmaker. He watches so many movies. But I love comics.

I love TV shows. I love movies. I love storytelling. I am ultimately married to storytelling, not to cinema. You know, as much as I love cinema, and it's probably my biggest love of all of those things, I love mostly my mistress is the craft of storytelling. Yeah, I see.

Did you watch the limited series, Ripley? No. You've never seen it? Dude. I'm missing out? Yes. Okay. I think, honestly,

I think it's a masterclass in storytelling. Okay, cool. And it's one of the best things I've ever seen. Okay, cool. And I remember that I was a big fan of the feature, the talented Mr. Ripley. Yeah, me too. And I was like, oh, it's a beautiful film.

I mean, it's just great, fun movie. And when I heard there's a limited series, I was like, that's so dumb. Yeah. I went in. That guy's a really good actor, that guy that plays. Andrew Scott? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But as like, just, I only say this because you were like, you were like, you know, storytelling. this is like it's you know to me when I when I'm watching something if you can tell some story part of the story is just visual storytelling like you don't even have dialogue yeah and you actually are following this story this series does that so unbelievably well it's it's just I mean it's beautifully shot the performances are incredible but it feels like masterclass storytelling it's in black and white right it's all in black and white Yeah, right. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. They should colorize it.

They could do that, yeah. We can send them a note. I know a couple people there. You send them a note? You know what? I have Ted Sarandos's number. Yeah, yeah. Let's tell him. Just give him a quick text. Hey, man. Yeah, let's update this. My last, I got to ask you this too. People will like it more about, about casting. Because this is like a fascinating process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, like, you know, when when something works really well, you kind of just. go like yeah it usually stands out when it doesn't work

where you're like this is fucking weird but this cast but like for instance Peacemaker has you have I think perfect casting you know we replaced

one of the guys he died first season the character that played Vigilante was played by another actor

that we please don't show the other actor okay we can cut stuff out too but Freddie Stroma who plays

Vigilani we had shot five and a half episodes of the first season with another actor. And I decided it wasn't working. And we hired Freddy to, and I had to reshoot all the stuff with him. That seems like a tough decision. It was a tough. It was tough to, it was tough to do. But luckily, we were again, very under budget. We still ended up really under budget. So we were able, we were able to afford to do it. I did the same thing in the second season with another

character but it was when you just i mean i you know if something's not working you know do you do when when you first sense it's not working do you obviously like do you try like oh we'll try to do something to to make it work or is it just like this just doesn't work well as far as performances go yeah i mean i tried to make it work every second i mean the very first day we shot a scene i was like oh no like how can i get you know and then sometimes you feel like that is a a director and then you get to the cutting stage and you're like oh no it's it works really well it cuts together yeah because i'm really intense on set with actors and sometimes it's you know my concerns are just a way to make the scene better and it doesn't match the reality of oh the scene's not

working um but in that case it we started cutting it together and i'm like oh god this is everybody's favorite character in the script and he's my favorite character in the show in a lot of ways and I am uh and it's just not working is that but that feels like that sounds brutal to have that is brutal is brutal yeah it's really learned i learned last year about the uh back to the future yeah that's that's brutal too yeah i didn't know that story and i know i know i mean and and in and eric silt's a very good actor yeah he's very good actor and it's like oh that sucks it that hangs over that guy's head for the rest of his life. It does, but then, like, when you, like, when you look at it through the lens of what, like, he's a very capable actor. It's, it's not that he's

not capable of actor. No, there's a light touch to it that Michael J. Fox brings that he is that character, you know, and Stoll's just more of a grounded, heavier actor. Yeah. And it just doesn't match. It doesn't match. But how about this is the one where I'm like, there's feelings. was like we're talking about bond right and so like they're always talking about like you know usually actors they do uh three or four and then there's just the whole thing of like who's gonna get the role next and it's like it's a global dialogue and everyone's like you know it should be this and how come it's not a woman or whatever yeah people you're like all right well they and they finally it's always like you know it's like okay i mean he's known for banging a bunch of

shit but yeah so have it be like that i'll watch that movie sure but there's you know I don't know if there's anything that feels like heavier than casting Superman right like that feels like that is the big like the big choice absolutely so when you're starting it's harder than harder than Batman it's harder than anything I feels like it would be Batman's wearing a mask do you see and also people Batman doesn't have Batman face like the thing about our supermans is they've all had Superman face yeah you know um whether it's brandon or Henry Cavill or Christopher Reeve or David Corrin's way. They all have Superman's face.

Yes. And that's a specific sort of thing because people kind of have some idea of what Superman looks like from the comics. So right away, you're incredibly limited. I mean, think about all the different types of people that have played Batman. Oh, there we have. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right.

With Batman, it's like Keaton, Ben Affleck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christian Bale. George Clooney. They're all totally different, you know, whereas Superman's more physically specific. So I was terrified going into that casting process. And I said to Peter, I said, if we can't find the right guy, I am not going to make this movie. There's just no way.

I'm not going to suddenly be like, you know, Paul Giamati's a great actor, but I'm not going to cast him as Superman. I would love to see him. way with that. Yeah, that would be amazing. It would be pretty cool to remake it with Paul Giamatti. But how long did it take you? I'm going to do my George Lucas recut with Paul Giamani. That's the fucking.

And David's role. Do you break the internet? He knows Paul's a good actor. Was it a long time to find David? Here's a funny part. Yeah. Second audition I saw. The second?

Yeah. And were you locked in? I wasn't locked in, but I was like, I think we're going to be okay. Really? If that's my worst choice, that we're going to be okay. There was like a guy who I thought was going to be really good, who I'm like, go, you know, sometimes I see these guys in like little roles and I go, oh, he's going to be great. And so I went to, you know, I asked for his audition. And so that when I got all of the auditions on tape, and I think people can go online and see, because I think GQ published David's audition.

But when I went and saw that list of all those actors, I watched that guy first. And I'm like, oh, shit, he's not it. I thought he was so hopeful. And I'm like, well, I really, I also picked out David Cornwall because I had seen him in Pearl, Ty West movie. And so I watched his second and I'm like, oh, my God, oh my God, oh my God. This is the greatest thing ever because he was, he handled the humor. He's very serious in Pearl.

And so I knew he looked like Superman and I knew he was a good actor. But I didn't know he could handle the sort of. I goofiness of Superman. Really? You know, that's what I like that about Superman. He's got this sort of farm boy charm, goofiness about him that we love and find endearing. And that needed to be a part of Superman for me.

And so he had that right away. And I was like, oh, this is a great. When they audition for that, like, are they doing like Clark Kent and super? Or is it like just one type of scene? Are they giving you? No, I didn't think so much. There it is. So it's, I had rewritten, you know, you know,

these scenes are going to get out so yeah well they this one didn't actually but you're afraid they're going to and so i wrote another version just for auditions of the interview scene with lois that's in the movie ah and that is really where he's being both clark and superman at the same time and he switches back and forth a little bit and so that's a great scene by the way thank you and i do feel like you you you kind of surprise yourself as the audience watching that scene yeah because you don't expect yourself to get kind of like I was like stop being an asshole to him just fuck why are you trying to

you know what I mean like you're you catch yourself getting involved yeah yeah yeah yeah you're being a bad girlfriend it was a fun yeah did you guys just that already exist yeah they're on point

how can you not make that now yeah I know is are you not inspired I am you know I am kind of inspired I god I love that guy I love that actor. Anyway, yeah, so that was, that was really, so I was very lucky with Superman. And the weirder thing is that then I went to look at all the lowest tapes.

And, and Rachel was a part of that group. And so you're like, oh, this is great. The lowest's were, unlike Superman, like, there were a couple of, you know, the three actors who ended up screen testing for Superman were the three I could see in the role. and there wasn't anybody else. It was a much more slim pickings.

Loises were, there were some good Loises, man. That was a, that was hard. Those actors were, you know. But I screen tested them together and I screen tested Rachel and David together and part of it was their chemistry together. They had good chemistry.

Yeah. Well, this was so fucking fun, man. I love it, thank you for coming in. I'm happy to finally be here. Finally, happy to meet you in person. I really appreciate. I appreciate you too, man. Peacemaker airs on HBO Max Thursdays.

It drops at 9 Eastern, currently in a second season. If you have not watched, dude, jump in the season one. It's fantastic. Really entertaining, super funny. Yeah, this is so cool, dude. Thank you for coming in. James Gunn, everybody. See you guys next week.

Bert and Tom, Tom and Bert. One goes top and swat the other wears a shirt. Tom tells stories and Bert's the machine. There's not. a chance in hell that they'll keep it clean. Here's what we call, two bears one cave.