20/20 - Dirty Little Secret

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

The death of a Texas minister’s wife left a church community shocked and her family convinced it was foul play. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A chaotic scene, local pastor Matt Baker has arrived home to find his wife Carrie unresponsive in their bedroom. I put my head to her chest and no air coming out, felt for pulse, nothing. An EMT told me that my daughter was dead. There was a piece of paper on the end table and something didn't set right. Her wife took her own life and it's pretty obvious. I just kept saying there's no way. Was there an autopsy done initially?

There was no autopsy done. We don't think Carrie killed herself. We know she didn't. Your assignment for today? We were investigating. We did. It was nonstop all the time. I would go, good morning, angels.

Carly's Angels of Waco. They were this group of strong women who were not going to just let this go. You're presented with a crime scene that's not really a crime scene, right? Things aren't adding up. I have to know the truth. What are you talking about? Murder? I'm sorry. You mess with your emergency? My wife is laying in the bed. Her lips are blue, hands are cold.

It was just before midnight here in the small town of Hewitt, Texas on the outskirts of Waco. Beloved minister Matt Baker comes home to find his wife unresponsive in their bedroom. Their two young daughters asleep in their beds. Matt calls 911. Are you in there with her right now? Is she conscious? No, she's breathing. Did you see what happened to her? No, no, no, no. I do not know.

The ambulance is on the way, okay? Are you up beside her right now? Yes. Are you at Beside Her right now? Yes. Matt had been beside his wife Carrie since they met at a Baptist summer camp that fell in love. I was the assistant director, and she was one of the camp counselors.

And from day one, we kind of headed off. Carrie fell head over heels. She told the family that she'd met a good Christian boy, and she'd fallen in love. Her faith was the core of who she was, and so it was very important to her that she found someone whose faith was aligned with hers. Matt grew up in Kerrville.

He, too, came from a very religious family. Carrie, she was always the bubbly little blonde and just loved life. People were drawn to Carrie. She was so funny. And when Carrie laughed, she laughed with her whole body. Everyone in the room just could feel her because she was just so free-spirited. I don't think there was ever a question, Carrie was right or not right for me. It was we moved fast. We met in May and married in August. We tried to talk Carrie into waiting a little longer and she really did not want to.

Carrie was looking for a husband with morals and values that were similar to what she had and Matt, she believed had those. That you may fear the Lord your God to keep all his statutes and his commandments which I command you. She was marrying a Baptist minister. How good is that? You couldn't pick a better guy than Matt Baker. Can you say Merry Christmas? Merry Christmas. No, here, take your passport out.

Say Christmas. Merry Christmas. Can you give a kiss? The kids came quickly. Oh. They look like this perfect young couple with this beautiful baby. Carrie wanted children.

She always had. And she was a wonderful mother. And then Cassidy came. It looked to the outside world like everything was just coming together for the Bakers. If you know our children or not, this is my wife Carrie, and it's special for me to do this because it is, we are my children, our children. Okay, Cassidy.

Hi. But it was just after Cassidy's first birthday, when the family was dealt some heartbreaking news about her. It turned out that she had a brain tumor. Carrie was devastated, absolutely devastated. We went to Cook Children's Hospital in Fort Worth. It was a scary time, and she struggled in pediatric ICU for 60 days. They started chemotherapy on her.

They didn't know if she would make it through, but she did. We get to bring her home. That was one of the happiest days. She needed a lot of care when she came home, but she was expected to recover. The Academy Awards were playing that night, and I remember staying up watching that. I went in and checked on Cassidy and she was fine. I gave her a kiss and said a prayer. Checked on her older sister, kissed her, said a prayer, and went to bed. A little while later, he got back up and went and checked on her a second time.

This time he started screaming. Carrie jumped up, ran into the room, found Cassidy, and she wasn't breathing at all. I yell at my wife as I'm taking her out of the bed, and I put her on the floor and I began CPR. She calls 911. They brought Cassidy to the hospital, but they weren't able to save her.

Cassidy died. I know we dealt with it differently. We would have discussions about it and pray about it. It was a struggle. Carrie bled grief after Cassidy died. And she was having a difficult time sleeping. Carrie had been taking over the counter sleep aid since Cassidy died. She could not calm down at night without sleeping pills.

She started writing journals and she just poured out incredible sorrow. She thought she saw Cassidy wherever she went. It was horrible. What helped Carrie, in addition to her faith and her family, was she saw a grief counselor for a year. She talked and talked things through. The death of a child always puts a terrible strain on a marriage.

Carrie really fought to keep that marriage together. She loved Matt. She wanted it to work out. I just told Carrie that men and women often grieve in different ways. In time, the Bakers and their daughter tried to move ahead with their lives. It was a year and a half after Cassidy's death. Carrie found out that she was pregnant. Carrie said that the baby was coming by the grace of God. There was definitely a fear in my wife that had not seen before. A fear of what if. I lost one, what if we lose another one?

I can't handle that. She loved her girls and she was so strong for them. Cassidy's life was cut short, but she had them. The four of them look like this perfect little family. You would think, oh look, they just have it all. Do you have a message for your emergency? Almost exactly seven years after the death of her daughter Cassidy, Carrie is now seemingly lifeless on their bedroom floor while her husband works to save her.

Do compressions first, okay? Just keep doing compression. Waco is a great city. It's very religious. You can't walk a block without seeing a church. It's small enough that most people are just a degree or two away from knowing everybody else. Hewitt, Texas is a suburb of Waco. Back then, maybe 12,000 people.

They have their own city, government, police. And when Kerry and Matt moved in, they quickly became part of the community. But in early April 2006, right here in the heart of the Bible Belt, a chaotic scene is unfolding inside this house. Local pastor Matt Baker has arrived home to find his wife Carrie unresponsive in their bedroom. And what's the problem? Tell me exactly what happened. My wife is laying in the bed and her lips are blue, hands are cold. Is she conscious?

No, she's not. Is she breathing? No, no, no, she's not breathing at all, no pulse or anything. I put my head to her chest and didn't see or feel her chest rising, no air coming out, felt her pulse, nothing. Okay, listen carefully, I need you to get her

laying flat on her back on the ground and remove any pillows, okay? Okay, put her on the floor. Correct. Put her on the bed now. All right, she needs to be on the floor, yes, okay? Okay, put her on the floor. Correct. On the bed now, put her on the floor. She needs to be on the floor, yes sir. Okay, okay. The 911 operator tells Matt to do CPR,

to put Carrie on the floor and start CPR. Do that and tell me when you're done. Okay. Hold on. Okay, hold on. Oh my. Okay, hold on, hold on. I did not want the EMTs to come in and see her naked.

And so I put her clothes on her for her. And as I'm taking her off the bed, fluid comes out of her mouth onto the floor, and it smells of alcohol. You're going to push down firmly two inches, with only your lower hand touching her chest. You're going to do it fast and hard 400 times. 400?

400 times is the latest we've been instructed to do. OK? 400. Twice per second. Rest it off. While on the phone, Matt asks the 911 operator to call Carrie's parents because he says his daughters are also in the house. I need to get a hold of her parents. They live in town and I want them to come over and be with the kids. Get somebody else started on this, okay? Thank you, thank you, thank you. We received a phone call from the 911 operator telling us that we needed to get over to my daughter's house that there had been an accident. We needed to get over there immediately.

Oh, she's got foam or something coming out of her nose. Okay, someone's at the front door. I gotta go. Okay, go ahead. Okay, all right. My name is Michael Irvin. I was a patrol officer with the city of Hewitt, and at that time I had only had about six months of actual law enforcement experience. I was the first officer to respond to the house.

There was actually an EMT that met me in the front yard. Matt Baker actually met us outside, and then walked us in, and he took us straight into the bedroom where his wife was at. The EMTs go in and they find Carrie on the floor. She's wearing a t-shirt and a pair of underpants and they come in and I step away and let them start working. There is a glass there that was actually still cold, if I remember correctly, which led into his account of what happened that night.

It'd been a typical Friday night that Matt says started with him and Carrie sharing a drink before heading to the local Y. We had a wine cooler that I'd purchased. And so she drank one, I drank one. We take our oldest daughter to swim practice that night. On the way my wife started saying her stomach was hurting her. She just felt nauseated, wasn't feeling very good.

After the family returns home, Matt says Carrie still wasn't feeling well and after taking a bath, she heads to bed while he starts the bedtime rituals with her daughters. It's a Friday night so they could stay up later. They could stay up till 10 o'clock watching TV. Came back, laid down with my wife. She's still in bed, half asleep, and she wants another drink. If she has a drink, I have one too. She goes to sleep, wakes up at about 11 o'clock, and asks me to go get a movie. And I was like, it's 11 o'clock. She goes, well, go get this movie for me and gas up because we have a busy day tomorrow.

He left to go get a movie. While he was gone, he came back and he discovered that he couldn't get back in. Walked to the bedroom door and it's closed. And I try the knob and it's locked. And I knock on it and call her name, carry, carry, and there's no response. Matt says he finds a small screwdriver

to try to open the door. So I pop the lock and open the door and find her in bed. And it was very eerily similar to walking in the room when I found Cassidy. As EMTs in the Baker residence work on Carrie, police take note of those wine coolers on the bedside table and something else. There was this bottle of unisom that it was almost empty. She had been taking sleeping pills to go to sleep since Cassidy passed away

and started taking more and more of them. And we had discussions that you've got to stop doing this, this is too many, this can be dangerous. We ran out of the car and as I started running up to the front of the house, an EMT person stood in front of me and grabbed me and told me that my daughter was dead. I just kept saying there's no way. There was a piece of paper on the end table and something didn't set right. For me, it all pointed back to that note. A frenzied scene has been unfolding in the middle of the night at the Bakers' home.

Matt Baker's wife is dead. And there's a note. On the bedside table there's a suicide note. That was the first time that the word suicide entered my mind. I had no idea at that moment what had happened. In the note there was reference to Cassidy. Matt explained to me that Cassidy was their daughter and it's a very difficult time for Carrie because of the anniversary of Cassidy passing away. The first person I remember showing up after me explained all the things

that Matt had showed me, and I took a step back. In Texas, in small counties where they don't have medical examiners, the justices of the peace decide what happens when there's an unexplained or a sudden death. I do remember in that phone call, it was Judge Martin. They told him they had a suicide note

and they had alcohol and that they had pills. And Billy Martin did not order an autopsy. It was classified as a suicide based on the preliminary investigation and what they saw at the scene. Police involvement at that point is done. Carrie Baker's family and her church community are shocked by her suicide. I hurt for her.

I hurt that someone hurt enough that they made that choice. We're just trying to put one foot in front of the other and get through this. This is. Less than one week after Carrie's funeral, Pastor Matt Baker is back at the pulpit here at Crossroads Baptist delivering the Easter sermon. He tells his congregation that just like Jesus,

Carrie has risen up to heaven. There was always the desire in her to be with a daughter that was in heaven now. And she did voice that several times, that Cassidy needed her, she needed Cassidy. This was my wife's Bible that she carried for years. Matt had given her a Bible years earlier and she started writing her feelings in the margins.

She says, I want to go with Cassidy. She could never let go of Cassidy. It was such a strong hold on her. The week Carrie died, she had a session with her grief counselor and also saw a doctor who prescribed her medication. The next day she ripped up the prescription, she wouldn't fill it. After finding out Carrie died, I had talked to my sister Kay. I just kept saying, there's no way.

Carrie would never take her own life. And then that's when she told me about a visit she got from Joanne. Joanne Bristol is Carrie's grief counselor and also friends with Carrie's aunt, Kay Bailey. She'd had a session with Carrie earlier that week. She had shared with me what Carrie had shared with her, that Carrie found some crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Joanne Bristol also shared that detail and others with police in the days following Carrie's death. My sister Kay and I, we all started talking, not around Linda. We all were sitting there going, what are we going to do? Because we knew so much about Matt.

We worked at a church camp together. Matt, I believe, had been written up at that particular camp for harassing girls that I went to school with. There was also an alleged incident from his college days involving a fellow student. I was afraid of him. I was angry with him. He took away virtually my young adulthood. Laura Wilson filed a complaint against Matt saying he sexually assaulted her. We were both student trainers for the athletic department.

He was a sophomore trainer and I was a freshman trainer. She was cleaning the bathrooms. Matt came in and offered to help. He came up behind me, and he pinned my arms behind my back and started trying to kiss me. I kept telling him to stop. He came up from behind me, picked me up, sat me on his lap, and he began running his hand between my legs.

I was struggling to get away. He didn't stop with the kiss. He didn't stop with the touching until he was ready to stop. Now I'm left with myself, violated, in shock, not knowing what to do. All I can tell you is when she left the facility was in tears, but nothing that I did. After the assault happened his words to me were I never meant to hurt you. At the time Laura

told a college staffer about the alleged assault, Matt was not disciplined. I dropped out, dealt with recurring nightmares, dealt with trust issues in relationships. It derailed my life for many, many years. I became a different person. She eventually filed a report with police years later. They began looking into the allegations, but stopped once they realized the statute of limitations had passed. Matt Baker denies assaulting Laura or harassing any female campers. Things have been said that can be misconstrued, misinterpreted, but I can't say this, I never accosted anybody.

anybody. Throughout Matt and Carrie's marriage, rumors of alleged inappropriate sexual behavior would continue to follow the preacher, but his wife stood by him. She loved Matt. When Carrie heard allegations that Matt had been inappropriate with young women, she was his staunchest defender. She told one young woman, when you marry a Baptist preacher, women are gonna come forward and make false allegations,

and you have to protect them. Carrie believed him, and we believed Carrie. She was telling us the truth as she knew it. I think there's a presumption with a man of God that they have a certain character and a certain ethical base, and we believe that. Linda's sisters had hoped that by talking to her about the various past allegations against Matt,

she might start to see him in a different light. But she didn't. She still had faith in her son-in-law. My sisters came over and I told them, let's just grieve and let this go. But the family wouldn't let it go. I started with the cell phone records. And Linda soon makes a startling discovery.

Something wasn't right. Over the years, since her daughter Cassidy's death, Kerry Baker was in and out of counseling, dealing with her grief, especially around the time of year when Cassidy died. Anytime you got close to the anniversary of the death of Cassidy or her birthday or holidays, there was definitely a deep sadness. But there was more going on that year. There was the fact that she was uncertain about her relationship with Matt. She sensed that something was very wrong.

After Carrie's death, Linda's sisters sat down with Linda and said, we don't believe that Carrie committed suicide. While Linda may have still been processing her daughter's loss, her family's emotions had quickly turned to suspicion. I remember Nancy saying, Linda, have you ever considered that perhaps Carrie didn't take her life? I remember stammering and saying, Linda, have you ever considered that perhaps Carrie didn't take her life? I remember stammering and saying, oh, what are you talking about?

Murder? We don't think Carrie killed herself. We know she didn't. The family decides to tell Linda what they say they learned from Carrie's therapist. Carrie had shared with her that she had found some crushed pills in Matt's briefcase, and she was afraid that Matt might possibly try to kill her.

She said, I think Matt's trying to kill me. And then she started laughing, and she said, oh no, Matt would never do that. But at the same time, I thought, this would make more sense, because I knew that Carrie would never take her own life. I think if truly Carrie went and said that, and was fearful for her life, the counselor should have done more, and didn't. Looking back, I think it was a scream.

At the first scream, and a series of screams, it took place that week of, I'm hurting more than you think I am. Murder, I mean, that's just not something that I could wrap my head around. I needed time to think, to process. This was too difficult for me to be able to discuss. But then shortly after Carrie's death, Linda says she began to notice

Matt was keeping her granddaughters away from her. No more babysitting, no more invitations to school events. At that point she started to feel a little different. What was going on here and why was this happening? Linda remembers Matt and Carrie's cell phones were part of her family plan, so she decides to have a look at the phone bill. The first really odd thing she noticed

was that Matt had continued to call Carrie's cell phone weeks after Carrie had died. It made no sense at all, and then it all started to click. Matt's giving Carrie's phone to someone. I think you said, I'm calling all angels, but we all went over to your house. You said, let's, we need to get together and talk. At that point, Linda started to think that maybe her sisters were right, and maybe they

really did need to look into this. It started with the cell phone, and I immediately figured out it was Vanessa Bowles. Vanessa Bowles was the daughter of the music minister at Crossroads Church where Matt was the preacher. The relationship really started between my wife and her. They became friends. Vanessa had a little girl that reminded Carrie of the baby she had lost. There were only three young families in the church that had small children, so we naturally just kind of congregated together because we had similar interests. We were friends. Vanessa would later describe in a recorded interview how she says the friendship evolved.

So I just got divorced and it was nice to have someone, you know, to talk to. Right. You know, who was in the pastoral position. And she gives her explanation of why she has Carrie's phone. We were starting to talk in the conference. Then I said, don't call myself because my mom pays for my meds and I don't want to run over during the day. I've done that many times before.

And he's like, well, I still have Carrie's phone so I can get that to you. Maybe Matt was simply seeking comfort in the friendship of a fellow churchgoer. But for Linda, those phone bills had set off alarm bells. Linda went to the Hewitt Police Department. She showed them the phone bills, but they weren't interested. This was a done case.

It was over as far as they were concerned. That's when Linda said, I need my angels over here. I would email them, I would go, good morning angels. She would always tell us, you need to do this. And we were investigating. We did, it was nonstop all the time. The assignments Linda gave out involved going through the time. The assignments Linda gave out involved going through the garbage.

And Charlie was doing some digging right alongside her angels as well. She researched whether overdosing on a sleep aid could have really killed Carrie. And she questioned Matt about those alleged crushed pills. I talked to Matt about the crushed pills. My wife said she found them in my briefcase when she was looking for a pen. She said, well, did a

kid where you work put them in your bag? Matt claims that unknown to him some kids at work may have been spitting out pills into his briefcase. But that seemed odd because the pills didn't look like they'd been spit out. What he said couldn't have happened. And so Kay called Judge Billy Martin to find out why he had ruled Carey's death a suicide. I talked to him about the suicide note and he mentioned it being signed and I said it was not. He goes, well you need to talk to the police. I said we've already done this and we just want somebody to investigate it more. And it was about that time where Matt's story no longer made sense.

There were inconsistencies, outright lies, and we needed more answers. So following the family's urging, police bring Pastor Matt Baker in for questioning. Well, I just want to sit and talk to you. Questions needed to be asked and questions needed to be answered. 31-year-old Carrie Baker has been found dead in her home. It was deemed a suicide by police, but her family began investigating on their own and they urge police to question her husband, preacher Matt Baker. I just want to sit and talk to you, you know, I just want to talk about what happened. That way we can clear all this up because I'm sure you know what I'm getting at, okay, as far as, you know, Linda, you know what I'm saying.

It was a very odd, odd week. But not behavior that would have raised red flags, if that makes sense. You know, it was one of those deals that I knew she was depressed. The conversation continues with Matt sharing his own view on what he believes might have happened. I left about 11 or so. I wasn't gone maybe 40 minutes. You left the house and went down to the gas station?

I wasn't even gone long at all. And that was the strange thing about it is I question where she would have taken the medicine. Personally, this is my opinion, I don't think the medicine is what killed her. I think she threw up into her mouth and was knocked out enough and choked on it. So now I don't know if that's just me trying to put stuff together to make it, you know, I don't know. Okay, like I said, that's all I just wanted to say. One last thing, you know, to kind of quell everything. If I asked you to take a polygraph test, would you be willing to do so? Okay.

Matt eventually passes a polygraph arranged by his attorney. Upset that police continue to consider Carey's death a suicide, Linda pulls together a team of her own. Linda ended up making an appointment to talk to a former federal prosecutor. Now in private practice, Bill Jostin had been a federal prosecutor in Waco, Texas.

The Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas goes up in flames. Eleven of the survivors now face murder and conspiracy charges in connection with the killing of four federal agents. And in 1993, he was part of the team prosecuting the 11 surviving branch Davidians. Those agents did not die in vain. Mrs. Duhlman came to me and she said, I've heard maybe you can help me. She explained to Bill that she doesn't believe her daughter took her own life, so she'd been working on Carrie's case with her angels. What Charlie's Angels were bringing to us was invaluable.

They were this group of strong women who were not going to just let this go. They brought a series of stories about Matt's conduct at different points in his life. Bill pulled together his own posse. He brought together retired lawmen to take over this investigation. I called them my guys and they became as invested in this case as if they were fighting for their own child. The biggest thing was to get the body exhumed, get an actual autopsy and find out what had actually happened to Gary Baker, how she'd actually died.

We started unraveling this thing bit by bit by bit. Matt Coffon is a member of the legendary Texas Rangers. He joins the team and reviews the evidence on the case. There are red flag after red flag that something was not right. It was so compelling that I could not automatically agree with the Hewitt police investigation. So I thought, okay, let's kind of break it down. You're presented with a crime scene

that's not really a crime scene, right? These are photographs. As you can tell, there's just not much to them. There were so many things early on in this investigation that just did not match. And part of it was Matt Baker's explanation of his timeline. He says he left, and then he came back, and it was such a short time that she couldn't have died

within that period. That was the theory that we were operating on. His timetable did not really match up. such a short time that she couldn't have died within that period. That was the theory that we were operating on. His timetable did not really match up. This is an overall view of Hewitt, Texas, and it's not large. These locations are very close to each other. They're minutes apart, especially that time of night. The team was also troubled by Carey's suicide note, which officer Michael Irving says was

pointed out by Matt. He just said, there's a suicide note, suicide note, suicide note. So he did direct me straight to no. The so-called suicide note was typed. It's not signed and that should be a red flag to any investigator. Let's take this a little bit further. It says tell my mom and dad that I love them too. In this case too is T-O, not comma T-O-O.

She was a teacher. She could spell. Yes. Something didn't set right. And for me, it all pointed back to that note. That suicide note. I didn't speak up. At that time, I'd been a police officer for six months.

If I could go and turn back time, there are a lot of things I would have done differently. Was there an autopsy done initially? There was no autopsy done. And so at this point we decided that we needed to have tissue samples from Carey's body, so we wanted to have that body exhumed. At the time of the Hewitt Police investigation, they concluded Carey had died by suicide of over-the-counter sleep medication. One of the tasks that Linda took on herself was investigating Unisom.

She found that it would have taken a great deal to have caused Carrie's death and that she wouldn't have died quickly. We came up with clues that made us believe that perhaps there were prescription medications given to her without her knowledge. Nearly four months after Carey's death, the Texas Rangers, in conjunction with Hewitt Police, are able to get Judge Martin to sign an order allowing for the exhumation of Carey's body. As we gathered information from various sources, determined to, you know, we need to go that route.

By this time we were working pretty closely with a detective at the Hewitt Police Department. It was critical that they had an autopsy. We had a lot of circumstantial evidence, but we needed some scientific evidence. Something that a prosecutor can hold in their hands and say, okay, now we may have something here. can hold in their hands and say, okay, now we may have something here. What else would the Charlie's Angels of Waco and their investigative team learn? A photograph was found on Matt Baker's computer.

He tried to delete it. We didn't know if she might have even been involved. Was Carrie's death a terrible tragedy or something much more sinister? a terrible tragedy or something much more sinister. A manipulative liar wearing the mask of God came into my life. A Hewitt preacher's wife was found dead. Her death originally ruled a suicide.

But is that how the mother of two really died? Maybe someone had held that coarse material against her nose. I think Carrie on some level understood that she was in danger. But you also discover in that Bible, Lord, I'm asking you to protect me from harm. He's having a conversation with the 911 operator.

And he's not winded and he's perfectly calm while he's talking. I'm going to tell you right now, I don't think it happened that way. You don't quickly dress a dead body. Here's a picture of Matt Baker. Is this the other woman? I'm going to tell what you did. And he said, you better not do that.

Sometimes faith can be used to manipulate and to control people. Preachers, the good ones are great. The bad ones have the most power of anybody. Here they were, the police in the home of a Baptist minister with a suicide note and sleeping pills and a bottle of alcohol. Well, the police at that point aren't thinking murder.

They're thinking that Carrie committed suicide. Texas pastor Matt Baker had lost a young daughter years earlier. He now appears to be facing yet another tragedy, the suicide of his wife Carrie. But her family isn't buying it. I knew that Carrie would never take her own life. We will fight for the truth. Could Carrie have been murdered? The Hewitt police, now collaborating with Texas Ranger Matt Coffon, who's been working

with Carrie's family, obtained an order to exhume Carrie's body. The autopsy results are now in. In her muscle tissue, there was a presence of Ambien, and that was huge. Huge. And at the time of her death, she didn't have a prescription for Ambien. No. The autopsy now lists Carrie's manner of death as undetermined. Now you're in undetermined land, now you're in a mystery, now let's solve the mystery.

Bill Johnston and his team continue to dig, now taking a closer look at those few crime scene photos. What's this? This is a picture of Carries' arm, and what you're seeing here is you're seeing the beginning of levitity, the purplish color from the pooling of the blood. You know, when the heart pumps, it pumps through the veins and the arteries. When the heart stops, everything settles to its lowest point. It's gravity. We have levitity set in in the body, and that takes time.

And this was a problem with Bill Johnson and his team. And so we found the person who wrote the book on crime scene reconstruction, Tom Bevel. The first responders from the medical field are saying that Levitity either was setting in or set, which in that time frame, that's a problem. So this is their home right there, right? Yeah, this is their home.

So if he leaves his house at 11, 45 to 55 minutes later, Levitity could not have been set in as it was in the photographs, all right? could not have been set in as it was in the photographs. All right? Cawthon and the team believe that Carey was likely dead before Matt Baker left his home. So if Carey's suicide was a homicide, how was she killed? The photograph showed something more.

In one of the photographs, there is a small abrasion that is to the bridge of her nose. We surmised that this was very likely done using a throw pillow off of a couch. It was kind of a coarse material that very likely could have caused an abrasion. Indicating that maybe someone had held that coarse material against her nose. That's right. The abrasion on Carrie's nose, it's not noted in the autopsy, but the presence of the generic form of ambient is. So Bill Johnston wants to look into Matt's digital trail. He sues Matt for wrongful death

and obtains access to his computer records. A month before Carrie's death they discovered Matt was on the computer searching for the term overdose by sleeping pills. I did search that. I did research to see can you overdose? Is that even a possibility that I need to worry about my wife overdosing on sleeping pills? As they continued to go through the computer they found where he tried to buy Ambien had moved it into a cart to purchase it. And that bit of forensics in the computers now hard-linked into the toxicology forensics. Our theory became, hmm, the ambient in the wine cooler, he got her sleepy with that so

he could later suffocate her. That was our theory. And remember those writings in Carrie's Bible about Cassidy? Well, those were written years earlier, but there was a recent troubling entry dated just five days before Carries death, which says, I feel like I have so much worry, Lord, I'm asking you to protect me from harm. I am not sure what is going on with Matt. What does that indicate? It's ominous. It's almost like she is afraid of him.

Looking back on it, they were predictive. I think Carrie on some level understood that she was in danger and she didn't realize that at that point that he was involved with somebody else. During this investigation, we got a clue from a woman who worked in a jewelry store and said, within a couple of weeks after Carrie's death, Matt Baker comes into the jewelry store with a woman and they're looking at engagement rings. No, we were not. One of our rules for our kids was when they turned six years old they can get earrings and so we began looking for jewelry, earrings. Here's a picture of Matt Baker. Is this the other woman? This is Vanessa Bulls. She was the

other woman. Now this is a photograph that we found on his computer in trash. We knew there was going to be a birthday party, and we took a picture of all the girls and Matt and Vanessa. It wasn't long after Carrie's death. When people came over, they didn't see any pictures of Carrie at all. But there was a picture of Vanessa with the girls. Two of Carrie and Matt's friends came to help with the party.

And one of them stayed overnight. And she saw Matt sitting on the couch with Vanessa's head on his lap. To Carey's family, it was clear that a romantic relationship had developed between Matt and Vanessa. Four months after Carey's death, police believe Vanessa Bulls just might be the key to solving this case. So they bring her to the Hewitt Police Station for questioning. It's just scary.

I know. Sorry to keep you waiting. It's okay. Like I said, I'm going to ask you some. It's okay. Like I said, I'm going to ask you some questions about that, Carrie. Okay. It just doesn't mean the truth. I'm sorry, it's just scary.

I know. Four months after Carrie's death, Vanessa Bulls, the woman who appears to have become romantically involved with Matt Matt Baker is now sitting at the police station answering questions about how that relationship unfolded. Every once in a while, he started calling just to chat. Just kind of asking about my divorce and kind of saying how God would work everything out. How long was that that it took it to progress to him calling a couple times a day?

I wanna say a couple of weeks. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't nice to have someone who had two daughters and would possibly be the dad to my child. Sure. Being in an affair that predated the killing, that would be big evidence. Did you ever meet him romantically?

No. Never? OK. After, after yes. After? After his wife passed away. OK, OK. Because I didn't think there was anything wrong. 2020 obtained emails never before broadcast

that show Carrie and Matt's relationship unraveling in the weeks before Carrie's death, at the same time as Matt and Vanessa's phone calls start to heat up. She sensed that something was very wrong. In one of those emails, Matt blames Carrie for Cassidy's death, writing, you wanted her to be pain free, and then telling her your prayer was the one that was answered. That made her angry, and she was going to leave him.

I suggested they get counseling. Back in that police interview, Vanessa, who at this point had broken things off with Matt, seems open to believing he could have murdered Carrie. Do you think that he had anything to do with her death? I think anything's possible now. A Hewitt preacher's wife was found dead in her home. Her death originally ruled a suicide.

But now, nearly a year and a half later, a judge has set a hearing to try to determine if that is how the mother of two really died. A formal inquest into Kerry's death was held. But in the end, the justice of the peace, who initially declared it a suicide, made the same determination that the autopsy had made a year earlier. The Carrie Lynn Baker's manner and cause of death shall be recorded as undetermined. So what do you do? At some point we have to do what we think is right. In this case it was to get an arrest warrant for Matt Baker.

Even though it wasn't ruled a homicide, nearly a year and a half after Carrie's death, Matt Baker is arrested for her murder. Matt Baker is accused of drugging his wife Carrie with sleeping pills and then suffocating her with a pillow. There's no way that he could take a life. I know my sons and I just don't believe he could do that. And we have breaking news for you now from the McClennan County Jail. Matt Baker could be released any time now. His $200,000 bond has been paid in cash.

My best decision was to move away from there and to move back here to my hometown where I felt support and felt loved. And it's in Kerrville, about 200 miles from Hewitt, that our cameras catch up with Matt and his daughters. This is a little bit of everything. They have a cafe where they take flowers and they crush them up and pretend it's chicken noodle soup. Don't be a terrorist. 2020 gets a glimpse of life with their father.

Everything to do is play with my dad. ...after losing their mother. Each have their own... I see. Mine. You know, and they separate pants from shirts. I pick mine and then he picks hers. But I have to okay hers.

Yes. Why? Because she likes spaghetti straps. But I don't wear them to school. I'm not allowed. And during this last year, he was a single parent, working and taking care of these girls. They emotionally attached to their dad very strongly,

the younger one especially. This is my favorite toy because it used to be my dad's when he was a little kid. Once Matt was released, he went on kind of a press tour. He tried to tell the world his side of the story. Would Matt Baker have the nerve to actually interview for and take, you know, do a photo shoot with Texas Monthly? Yes, he would.

Pretty much anybody who wanted to talk with him, Matt Baker had an open door. Tonight on 2020, was it suicide or murder? The story goes national and Matt Baker sits down with 2020 for an interview. He proclaims his innocence and denies he had an affair with Vanessa Bulls. It was a friend. It was a very good friend. But there's nothing there now. I don't believe in adultery, I don't believe in divorce.

The problem was that for him was that he changed his story a little bit every time he gave one. Matt tells 20-20 that it was the police who found that suicide note. One of the police officers found it and handed it to me and I held it in my hands for a brief moment and I looked at the first line and I handed it back and said I can't read it right now. But listen as Matt refers to that suicide note in his 911 call. My wife is laying in the bed and her lips are blue, hands are cold and there's a note

that says I'm sorry, basically. There's no way I could ever have hurt my wife. I loved her, she's the mother of my children, and I missed her, and I did not hurt my wife. We felt validated with the arrest, but I'm gonna tell you right now, all the arrests in the world mean nothing without a good prosecution.

The Texas Rangers made an arrest on the case, and the case was then transferred to our office. I believed that Matt had killed Carey, but I didn't feel like that we had the proof to take it to a trial and get a conviction. If you get an acquittal, it's over. Six months after Matt Baker's arrest, the murder charge is dismissed after prosecutors failed to indict him. It was frustrating, but I mean,

we knew it would take time and we weren't going to stop. People started running around town with bumper stickers that said justice for Kerry. Love trumps evil. It was underneath it. We had truth on our side. We had God on our side. We had Bill Johnston.

And we were going to continue civilly. His story was not adding up anymore. You wouldn't have left those two girls there if you didn't think it was safe. And would Matt's account of what he says he did when he found Carrie check out? He's not winded, and he's perfectly calm while he's talking.

I'm going to tell you right now, I don't think it happened that way, John. I just don't. When the criminal case was stalled and it wasn't going forward, Bill Johnston filed a wrongful death case and that allowed him to subpoena Matt Baker for a deposition. Two and a half years after the death of his wife, Matt Baker is on the hot seat answering questions under oath about the night she died.

About 1045-ish, a little before 11, she asked me if I could run a couple of errands. Had she sort of refreshed herself and gotten awake and got forward thinking by that time? Not, I mean it was still kind of that half awake, just talking, but still kind of real drowsy. I'm conjecturing that it went through his mind that maybe she already took all the sleeping pills before he left. Was she aware enough that you could observe that she could handle if the kids needed her for instance? I would yeah I felt that that she probably could.

I felt that she probably could. She had to be fine or else she was incapacitated and he was a bad father and he just left his girls with an incapacitated person. Which one is it, Matt? So he chose the high room. That yes, Carrie was fine. So if Carrie's fine, she's not getting ready to die. getting ready to die. Bill was able to ask him question after question after question and get answers from him that were very helpful.

While you have the phone pressed against your shoulder, you put on her panties first, is that correct? I believe that's right. And then what did you do? And I put on her shirt. Okay, and she's on the bed at this time? Correct. But Matt had told police a different version of how he dressed Carrie that night.

I put the panties on her in the bed as I was getting her out, and then when she was on the floor I put her shirt on. The clothing, it appears consistent, especially her panties, as to how you would typically find if they were put on by the individual, not somebody else, with a lady who is not able to assist. If he would lie about dressing her, why? And he wanted to explain their body was cold by saying she was nude on top of the bed. As if she would have aired out, cooled off.

Just a stick figure to put where she came to rest once she moved. How difficult was that to move her? I guess at the time you don't even think about it you just do what you have to do. We wanted to know if Matt's story holds up so we asked Texas Ranger Matt Coughon to put it to the test with a dummy roughly the same weight as Carrie's at the time of her death. He would have had to reposition the body. I'm gonna tell you right now, I don't think it happened that way, John. I just don't. How much time would he have had to do this

between the call to 911 and the chest compressions? About two minutes. To dress her, put her body on the floor, all while on the phone with 911. Here, we're gonna see if you can do this. I'm gonna put a stopwatch to it, and here we go. And you're doing it as see if you can do this. I'm going to put a stopwatch to it and here we go. And you're doing it as fast as you can. Well, I'm doing the best I can.

And I feel the phone about to fall. We're at 48 seconds now. We're about a minute 20. He's having a conversation with the 911 operator and he's not winded and he's perfectly calm while he's talking to the 911 operator. That's one minute fifty seven seconds. Just to get her dressed.

That doesn't include the removing from the bed and the chest compressions. And I know how to do CPR. Oh you do? In listening to the 911 call, it sounded phony. Do I need to go unlock the front door? I'll let you know when they start getting close, okay? I think you'd give yourself an Oscar and I'd give him a rotten tomato.

Just keep doing compression. I would not have known at the time when I got there that he had been doing CPR. You're still doing compressions? Yes, sir. Okay. He did not sound winded on the phone. No, not at all. He didn't have to do chest compressions because she was already dead.

He killed her, I think, before he left to go run alibi errands. Despite Matt's inconsistencies, prosecutors feel they need more. So they bring in a new detective to help with the investigation. My name is Abden Rodriguez and in 2009 I was a criminal investigator for the McClennan County District Attorney's Office. I hear they call you the human lie detector. I guess because of some confessions that I was able to get. Abdon is asked to review the case and find evidence that would help indict Matt Baker. I wanted to look at the interviews that had been done.

There was a lot of deception, you know, and I could see how, especially Vanessa, was doing it. How many times a week would you talk, you think, prior to her death? Once every day for a couple hours, and maybe midday or? Sometimes a couple times a day. As you can see, she's got her arms crossed and her legs crossed. That's a big red flag to me. As you can see, she's got her arms crossed and her legs crossed. That's a big red flag to me. When she passed away that week, how were the conversations?

Were they kind of the same way they were before? They were really the same. And I told them and I said, look, the whole key to this case is going to be Vanessa Booth, which is pretty and very smooth and friendly, but at the same time you know she's a liar. We didn't know if she might have even been involved. After interviewing Vanessa, Avdon decides to subpoena her to testify in front of a grand jury. I said, I'm going to be there,

and I'm going to listen to your testimony. And I said, and as soon as you lie, I'm going to file charges on you. When they brought Vanessa Bulls in for the grand jury, that was kind of a last ditch effort. So we're like, OK, let's see what happens. She and I were walking down the hall. She whispered to me, I'm going to tell you all everything. So we're like, okay, let's see what happens. As she and I were walking down the hall,

she whispered to me, I'm gonna tell y'all everything. Behind closed doors, Vanessa Bull's grand jury testimony is the last step in getting Matt Baker indicted. A former preacher charged with the murder of his wife. Finally, Vanessa's testimony is the smoking gun. It was. It was. She had everything we needed. The civil case was dropped at that point in order to let the criminal case continue. Matt Baker is charged with first degree murder, accused of drugging and suffocating his wife, Carrie,

and making it look like a suicide. He pleads not guilty. Now, four years after his wife's death, Matt Baker is on trial for her murder. That first day of the trial, the gallery was full. We have a lot of people here in the gallery today. True crime author Catherine Casey was in the courtroom every day. I followed this story from the first time it hit the Texas newspapers. It was just so fascinating that this had unfolded, especially in Waco, in

this city that's just dominated by religion. Prosecutors began poking holes in Matt's story from that night, starting with the 911 call and his claim that he performed CPR on Carrie. We're going to go ahead and do eye compressions. You're going to do it fast and hard 400 times. 400? 400 times. Did any police officers arrive before you? I was the first one there. And what did he tell you?

He pulled her off the bed and put her on the floor in order to do CPR. And what was his demeanor? Very calm. Did that strike you as odd? Yes. Even as a police officer, I would not be as calm as he was that night. There was no way that in that period of time he was able to move her, dress her, and was doing CPR while he was having this conversation.

He wasn't sweating. He did not seem to be in any type of physical distress. The computer expert found incredible evidence regarding searches, regarding suicide, regarding sleeping pills, and regarding Ambien, which became critical. Can you tell the jury what was extracted from the muscle tissue of Kerry Baker? We found three different drugs, Fentermine, Diphenhydramine, and Zolpidem. And then Zolpidem, in its common name, is Ambien.

We never were able to determine where he got the Ambien from. But we were able to determine that he was going to these websites and that he had gotten as far as putting Ambien in a cart. Defense attorney Guy Gray pointed out that there was no evidence that Matt actually ordered Ambien from that website. They went through the process of looking at it, but it was aborted and no purchase of Ambien was made. Correct? Yes. No further question. You state your name for the jury, please.

Joanne Bristol. Joanne Bristol, Carrie's grief counselor, testified about those comments she says Carrie made about Matt. She said, I'm thinking my husband is going to kill me. But she recanted the statement. How do you analyze that, or what do you think about that? I felt at that time that I knew this client very well. She had never misled me.

And so when she said, oh, but I know he wouldn't do that, I believed her. You didn't advise her to leave the house or move out. You didn't call law enforcement. You took that recanting as an accurate or true reflection of what was going on. From her, yes. Day four of the trial and it's the prosecution's star witness who everyone is waiting to hear.

This case was one of those cases where all of the attention is focused on one witness and that one witness was Vanessa Bulls. State calls Vanessa Bulls. I remember looking at Matt more than looking at the jury. I wanted to see his response, and I think he was stunned. After years of denying their affair, Vanessa now admits that Matt began to pursue her even before Carrie died.

He started asking me things about my divorce and started telling me whoever finds you is going to be a lucky man. Did he say anything else unusual to you? He came by and was kind of smiling. He said, oh, don't date other guys, just date your pastor and kind of smiled. Did he say anything else after that? He said, will you really date your pastor? I've had a vasectomy so I can't get you pregnant. Also, I don't have any STDs. And he also started telling me that because of Carrie's depression,

as he stated, their sex life had been lacking. And at the time were you buying into what he was telling you about Carrie? I was buying into everything. He was a complete and still is a manipulative liar who took me my vulnerable state and made me believe everything he said. What happened then in in early March as you and Matt started to spend Fridays at head. What happened then in early March as you and Matt started to spend Fridays at the Baker Home? He asked if he could hold my hands to pray and he did.

Then afterwards he started to kiss me. Then he just took my hand and led me to the bedroom. Feeling guilty about being with her pastor, Vanessa says that Matt tried to reassure her. I was extremely remorseful. I couldn't believe what just happened. He started saying, it's okay, don't feel bad, just ask God to forgive you. And he said, in reality, he said, I don't think God believes that anyone can just be with one person the rest of their lives. After Carrie's death, Vanessa says Matt wanted more, perhaps even making her the next Mrs. Baker. At some point, did you and Matt take the girls

and go to Kay Jewelers in the mall? We did. He stated that the girls wanted to go look at wedding rings for me. Are you telling the jury that he was prepared at this point, a week or two after Carrie's death, to trade in Carrie's wedding set to get you a ring that you wanted?

Correct. Matt had denied this in interviews, but a salesperson from the jewelry store corroborated Vanessa's account. She tried on about four or five rings, asked his opinion. He just would tell her it didn't matter what he liked, it was what she liked because she would be the one wearing it. Vanessa then drops a bomb when she says not only did Matt want out of his

marriage. He said that if we ever fell so much in love that he would find a way out of it. She also knows what happened to Carrie Baker. I told him I'm gonna tell what you did and he said you better not do that. Vanessa testifies that Matt was openly plotting Carrie's death. At what point did he start talking about planning her murder? It was sometime mid-March. He said that, you know, she took sleeping pills every night, so maybe he could make it look like she overdosed on sleeping pills. Vanessa Bulls talked about how Matt had ruminated about all the different ways he might kill Carrie. He talked about making it look like she had hung

herself. He talked about tampering with the brakes of her car, maybe doing a drive-by shooting. What I saw from Vanessa's testimony was a man who was much more evil than even I believed he was. She testified that Matt planned to kill Carrie with a tainted milkshake and then craft a suicide note. One to two weeks before Carrie's death, did he tell you that he had, in fact, tried that? He did. He sent an e-mail and said she took a sip of it and said that it tasted like lead.

And so then he said he took a drink and said, oh well the ice cream must have been bad. He mentioned that he would leave a note and he said that he would type it and I said, that's never gonna work. You're gonna be caught. And he said, oh no, she types everything. Did he say something else about what he believed other people thought about her mental state? Oh, he said that no one would question it because of how depressed she was. Vanessa stuns the courtroom when she says Matt Baker told her how he killed his wife.

He had gotten big horse pills. He said he emptied out all the contents and put crushed ambient in them. He said he handcuffed her to the bed, started kissing her and touching her all over until she fell asleep. Then he said he got the pillow and put it over her face. What did he say happened next? He said that he thought she was dead and he just said she just took one big ass for air and he said oh and then put the pillow bag on her face except he did this with his hand to be sure that he suffocated her. He didn't even feel enough remorse when he realized that she

was still alive to rethink it he just wanted to finish the job. He said he typed out the suicide note, printed it, got her hand, and he said that he ran her hand all around the sides of it and put her fingerprints all over it. He said that he set everything up, locked the door and left. What was the reaction in the courtroom to Vanessa's testimony that not only did Matt Baker kill his wife, but that he had been planning it? He had been planning it and the things that he did, people couldn't believe it. I think the more surprising thing was that they couldn't believe that she said they're

telling all this. So you knew that Friday, April 7th of 2006 was the day that he was going to try it again? I knew he was going to try it then, yes. And you didn't report that to anybody? No. Vanessa says she had second thoughts about Matt and the cover-up of Carrie's murder. Not only had I known about this and not done the right thing, in truth, who would believe me?

He was a preacher. And so I felt like I was stuck. She then chose to break it off with him. I decided that I didn't care what he told me anymore, that we didn't worship the same God. So I called him. I told him, I never want to see you again. And he became my right. He started saying, I never want to see you again. And he became my right. He started saying, I killed my wife for you,

and now you're leaving. In a move Vanessa believed was meant to intimidate her, she testifies that Matt sent her an MP3 of a song called Dirty Little Secret. I'll keep you my dirty little secret. Secret. Don't tell anyone, no, no, no Just another regret

He's talking about the murder plan and he later referenced it, stating, I need to keep my mouth shut, don't tell anyone or you'll be just another regret. I'll pass the witness wrong. This bull, please. The defense pressed Vanessa on why she was now coming clean about everything. How would we know to believe you Vanessa?

Because what do I have to gain from this right now? I'm setting things right. I made a mistake here because a manipulative liar wearing the mask of God came into my life and this testimony is going to put him where he needs to be. It's now up to the jury to determine where Matt needs to be. Folks, we can't protect her from harm. The only thing now we can do is give her justice. Then turned and pointed to Matt and said to convict this murdering minister and find

him guilty for one reason only. Because he is guilty. The indictment says there's got to be facts of drugs and a pillow and the only way you can get those facts is by believing Vanessa Bulls. And she is just not credible. I think a lot of people struggled with Vanessa. I mean, she had done horrible things. But I think it really helped her credibility when she was on the stand because she didn't try to fade her own culpability. I think Vanessa was absolutely the key to the case.

We've reached a unanimous verdict, is that correct? Yes, sir. We the jury find the defendant, Matt D. Baker, guilty of the offense of murder as alleged in the indictment. For the sentencing phase of the trial, the jury gets to hear additional testimony. They came back and had witnesses from his past come and talk to us about things that he had done. One by one, women testify about sexual misconduct they say they endured from Matt Baker.

He came up from behind me, put his hand on my breast, I pushed him away, told him no. He tried to kiss me, told him no. I remember having to use all my strength to try to keep him off of me and from taking my clothes off. Including Laura Wilson, the student trainer who worked alongside him in college. He took his hand and began running up my thigh and between my legs. I think as a jury to see you know what all he's been doing since he was a teenager made us a hundred percent feel like that we had definitely made the right decision. The jury sentenced Matt Baker to 65 years in prison and finally Carrie's mother has a chance to confront him directly.

I'm talking to you, Matt, today, okay? You haven't looked at me in almost four years. Can you look at me today? So what does Matt have to say from behind bars? Good morning. Yeah, we asked him to give the call. The sentence of the court that you be confined for a term of 65 years. There's some victim impact statements given by the family of the victim.

You may proceed. I'm talking to you, Matt, today, okay? You haven't looked at me in almost four years. Can you look at me today? For a little while, okay? She did talk to him directly and he looked down. Matt, she loved you. And then you took her from us, Matt.

You discarded her like she was yesterday's trash. You murdered the mother of your children. But love trumps evil. I don't know why, but I felt pity for him. I truly believe in my innocence. I believe the jury made a mistake in this. After his sentencing, 2020 speaks with Matt Baker again, this time in prison, for he finally admits to his affair with Vanessa, but continues to maintain his innocence. I'm coming clean on the lying about Vanessa. I made a mistake.

I'm human. I made a mistake there. I should not have ever got involved in that. I was having a tough spot in my marriage, and I took the chicken way out. But I would never have hurt my wife. I never did. I never laid a hand on her, ever. Their mother was erased from them. They need to know she loved them,

and she didn't leave them by choice. A year and a half after Matt's conviction, Linda was given custody of her granddaughters. It was a long journey for the girls to understand what had actually happened to their mother. Carrie Baker didn't kill herself. She was murdered. He was a Baptist pastor, preacher. He was a predator. I think he's a dark angel. You get to be the hero during daylight and sneak around in the dark and be evil. What do you make of the fact that now

nearly 20 years after the case, Matt Baker still maintains his innocence. He's one of those people that can just lie and lie and believe in himself that he's innocent. The real hero in this is Linda Doolin. She fought for her child. A mother. A mother's will. It's strong.

Determination. There's nothing like it, really. It's strong. Determination. There's nothing like it, really. It touches you. It does. Why? Because I have children. And these are hard things. Linda Doolin is a brave, strong woman.

I'll always admire that about her. We love each other and we knew Carrie did not take her life and we weren't gonna sit back until somebody would listen to us. She was an amazing mother and she would fight for any of us and I just wanted everybody to know the truth. Carrie's family is still so heartbroken over their loss, but committed to remembering the joy she brought them all. We should point out tonight that Matt Baker hasn't seen his daughter since he went to prison, but he hopes they'll visit one day. As for Baker, David, he has exhausted all of his state appeals.

For an inside look at tonight's 2020, join me for our brand new podcast 2020 the after show. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts and I'm David Muir from all of us here in 2020 and ABC News. Good night. This is a warning for David Blaine's new series on National Geographic. Do not attempt anything you are about to hear. As a magician, I'm searching for people with amazing abilities who will teach me things that I didn't even know were possible. What? Incredible!

Things that you shouldn't do and anything can go wrong. Go, go, go! David Blaine, Do Not Attempt premieres Sunday, March 23rd at 9 on National Geographic, streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. This is Deborah Roberts. To hear the backstory to this episode, join me for the 2020 After Show. Every Monday, I'm going to talk with correspondents, producers, some of those folks behind the scenes who bring you these stories.

And you're going to hear bonus tape that's not necessarily included in the episode. That's 2020 The After Show, Mondays in your 2020 podcast feed.