20/20 - The After Show: Red Handed

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Our investigative team spent three years trying to find out what happened to a former Arkansas state senator who was found murdered at her own home. This episode features behind-the-scenes details from 20/20 co-anchor Deborah Roberts and Josh Margolin, one of the lead investigative reporters in this shocking case.  Originally published in October 2022. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everybody, it's Deborah Roberts with the 2020 After Show. And today we are going to jump into a conversation about an episode that I have to admit really stopped me and I'm sure viewers in our tracks. It's called Red Handed. It's a close examination of the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. This one was just really an unusual story. And if you haven't heard that episode yet, you're going to be surprised to hear that. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. And I'm going to be talking about the murder of former Arkansas State Senator Linda Collins-Smith. This one was just really an unusual story, and if you haven't heard that episode yet, you're going to want to go back and listen to it because we're going to dig deeper into this story and give you some details, as we always do, that weren't shared in the broadcast. If you're one of our ardent viewers, you will remember that Becky O'Donnell killed Linda Collins-Smith, her BFF, and that she acted alone.

But what you may not know is that it took us a lot of work to get a better understanding of this case. We had to sue, that's right, we had to sue, these things happen with us sometimes as an organization, to unseal documents placed under a gag order. I spoke with ABC News' chief investigative reporter, Josh Margolin, about our reporting, and it's a conversation we had back in October of 2022 when we first broadcast that 2020 episode. Let's jump in. Hey, Josh, welcome.

Hi, Deb, great to be here. One question that many people are gonna come away from this asking is, where is Becky now? We don't know. It's one of the enduring mysteries of a really strange, mysterious case. She's in the custody of the State Department of Corrections, the prison system in Arkansas, but she's been transferred out of Arkansas. I was gonna say in another state, right? Into another state. But the Department of Corrections in Arkansas, we've had lawyers try to convince them to release information. We've gone through all the various channels.

We've had ranking officials in the state legislature raise this issue. The Department of Corrections in Arkansas says that they do not have an obligation. And in fact, they're prohibited from specifying what state or what prison in a particular state. But that just creates more suspicion around this case don't you think? Because typically we find out eventually where people are. 100% and covering crime as we do we know that one of the key tenets of the system is that people can't just be spirited off. So we have spoken to the prison system repeatedly and they say that they don't just be spirited off. So we have spoken to the prison system repeatedly,

and they say that they don't have an obligation to answer the question, that Arkansas's really broad public records laws do not require them to release the location and the prison, and they will not. We just checked and still listed that she is in their custody, but being held at a place that they will not specify. And on top of that, Deborah, they won't say why she's being held out of state.

We were hoping to try to talk to her. She finally pleaded, but has she spoken out? She has not spoken out at all, other than the one or two sentences that she uttered in court that morning that she pleaded guilty. Let's listen to that now. Ms. O'Donnell, are you pleading guilty because in truth and in fact you are guilty?

Yes. To both counts? Yes. Tell me what you did. I went over to Linda's house and I intentionally killed her and concealed her body. So with the purpose of causing the death, you caused her death? Yes. We also heard from her during the various walks where she was taken from a police vehicle into court,

where reporters would shout questions at her and she may have responded one or two words. We've never heard her voice except in the released video that came out through the public records rules. You know, they put out all of the evidence in the case after ABC sued for access to the case files. And the interesting thing is the people who are critical of the Arkansas criminal justice and prison systems in this case say that they're concerned that she's being held out of state in a place they won't identify as a means of keeping her away from talking to the media. We don't know if that's true or not, but we know that by not knowing where she is, we can't approach her.

Of course we can't approach her. And then again, the conspiracy theories that started in the very beginning continue because you wonder why. That's right, Deb. We've interviewed the lieutenant governor of Arkansas who's running for attorney general. We've interviewed the chairman of the state senate judiciary committee. We've interviewed the former vice chairman of the state senate judiciary committee, the head of the State Judicial Conduct Commission, all of these people said that they believe the prison system is doing a disservice to themselves and to the public by not answering questions because there's a reality here.

This whole story that we've spent all this time working on is loaded with questions and conspiracy theories. It's not in a vacuum. There are these unfounded questions about whether or not the system treated her properly, whether the case was investigated properly, whether there was undue influence of judicial or political figures. There's an obligation to our way of thinking and to the thinking of our sources to act

in such a way to say that this is a legitimate case and we're handling it in a legitimate way. But our attorneys, the same attorneys who represented ABC in suing to gain access to the case file have been in contact with the Department of Corrections. And the Department of Corrections takes a very, very hard line that the public records rules that granted us access to the case file

do not grant us access to the information of where she's being held, why she's being held there, and what state she's in. One of the key pieces of evidence presented against Becky is that incredibly damning video. We watch her pull a knife out of her purse and we hear Linda screams as she is attacked. We brought up the question in the show, what are the odds that this would be recorded? It was stunning to us, but we didn't even know about it, and it's funny because remember the interview

that you did with the sheriff? They couldn't even talk about it. We were with the sheriff only days after he had seen these videos, and he couldn't tell us anything that was on them. So he had to keep his mouth shut because of this really, really broad gag order that nobody could explain. But for us to see it so long afterward,

after following this case was really remarkable because you never get that kind of evidence. I mean the odds of something like that, especially the knife video that you're talking about Deb, it's like astronomical odds that it would still be running and recording at the right angle, getting her face with the bloody knife all in the frame. And that they would be able to find the video because they didn't even have the cameras intact. Alright, let's talk about this gag order because that was what was so frustrating for us. We hear about gag orders all the time.

Give us a sense of what it's like trying to deal with all of those. I mean, you know, we all know about Freedom of Information Acts and the press is entitled to a lot of freedom of information when it comes to these stories. We file these forms sometimes depending on the stage of a case, you know, you can get this stuff quickly or not. Why don't you tell our listeners, I mean, how difficult it was for you filing forms just for us to even get to that point earlier this year, for me to get on the ground, how much was involved for you to try to do all of this?

Well, it started the way that a lot of these stories begin, with a phone call from one of our television programs here at ABC or from our news desk, saying, this kind of thing has happened, we're interested in following. And this is the kind of story that would bubble above the typical kind of homicide without being dismissive. We obviously don't cover every single homicide

in the country. This is a former state senator. Right, former state senator and she winds up dead. So we had first heard about that. And then there was the arrest. It was very, very odd right from the beginning. And if you look back at the press conference footage, you see Sheriff Bell looked like a man who was handcuffed. Let's listen to part of his

statement now. The investigation is presently at a critical juncture and no further information will be released at this time until we are confident that it will not compromise the integrity of the criminal investigation. And he explained to you later, Deb, in that interview where he said the reason for the look on his face was because he knew he had a lot of information to share but was told he couldn't.

We can listen to part of that now too. It's hard to be transparent when you have a gag order in a high profile case and you can't tell anything. We were wanting to tell the story from the very beginning, but we wasn't allowed to. Almost instantly, we wasn't allowed to. Almost instantly we couldn't get anywhere. So we started making some phone calls.

We went to Arkansas. We started talking to people. We actually met with Sheriff Bell. He's a career police officer. He had been an Arkansas state trooper for his career, then retired and runs for sheriff. This was his first big case. He had just been sheriff for a short period of time. It's his hometown

He knows the people involved and he was very genuine to us. I would love to tell you everything I'd like to tell you the whole story. I can't tell you anything One after another after another we were getting that same exact kind of response. We have the answers We can't tell you go figure out a way to get the court to allow us to tell you We can't tell you go figure out a way to get the court to allow us to tell you So that's what we did so these things are are not as dramatic in the moment as they seem I have to the fact and certainly all the president's men was a truncated period of time right but we called Various places we called the Arkansas Press Association We called our own outside lawyers who operate in Arkansas to get a sense

called our own outside lawyers who operate in Arkansas to get a sense, we quickly learned that the people who are experts in Arkansas, Freedom of Information laws, thought this was unusual and that ABC should fight it. And so did that make you more determined because you're thinking there's something going on here? Sure, because if they turned us and say, you know what, Arkansas is a tough state to operate in, these gag orders are really typical, nothing to see here,

give it six months and you'll wind up getting everything. We probably would have- You would have waited. Would have waited, we would have just passed it by. But they said, this is really rare, this is really strange. And then you add in all of the other things. We were quickly hearing about the conspiracy theories. We were getting unsolicited phone calls,

people telling us, you should be looking at this it's because of whatever what the good old boy network or something that's at work here and Going back to the ugly divorce Linda and Phil's divorce there was a suggestion that there was some sort of Underhanded dealing that might be connected with the murder, which we know turned out to be false. So we then went through the process, filing the forms, requesting access, getting denied, reaching out to the court, getting denied. We ended up having to file a lawsuit.

Ultimately, it took all this time, months and months and months and months, finally Judge Fogelman, who was brought in to land the case, he ended up releasing and announcing he would release everything. There was an effort that was made by Linda's children to make sure that whatever was released, the contents of her personal computer, mainly, did not include personal information. And of course, that's legitimate. We see that all the time.

Nothing surprising about that. You would never want personal stuff coming out. Social security numbers, cell phone numbers. Phone numbers, yeah. Then the pandemic hits. So we're waiting, waiting, waiting and trying to be patient, understanding that everywhere in the country, the police and judicial systems were as affected by the pandemic as all of our lives were. As handicapped as anything else is, yeah. Right, judges couldn't come in, clerks couldn't come in, people were barred from public places.

We've never seen it before in our lives and hope to never see it again. So we waited, waited, waited. Finally, the pandemic seemed to start ebbing that courts around the country started getting back up and running, and there was no movement here. So finally we had to bring our attorneys

back into the picture. They went ahead and they filed some additional motions, and there was no movement here. So finally we had to bring our attorneys back into the picture, they went ahead and they filed some additional motions to get the earlier court orders to basically move the ball forward because first there was the order, ordering everything released, but then it was the practical matter of getting it out.

And so right at the end, probably close to New Year's, coming into 2022, finally, as if somebody had thrown open the blackout curtains in some old darkened house, we start getting these records and we start seeing some of these videos. And they do as they normally do. They release them in various groups

because they have to go through things. So as they become available, they release them. And we started looking at them. And then that's what brought us at the end of the winter to Arkansas to start interviewing people because finally now, after all this time, we were able to understand not only the homicide, we were able to understand the investigation

and what they found. Yeah. Josh usually does all this behind the scenes, like work, you and other folks in your team, on these kinds of stories long before they get to me. And there are certain states that are particularly problematic when it comes to these kinds of things. Is Arkansas one of those states that's just difficult to try to crack any kind of access to? No. The answer is no. People might have whatever views or preconceived notions about the deep South and about certain rural states or smaller states.

Arkansas is a rural state, it's a smaller state, it's in the South, but Arkansas has great public records. Arkansas has great court access. And this whole thing turned it on its head. Yeah, that was very, very strange. Well, let's talk about some of the details that, I mean, we talked about in the piece, you know, Linda's ex-husband, formerly Judge Phil Smith.

There was suspicion right away that he was involved. Her kids, his stepchildren thought he was involved. He was eventually cleared. No reason to believe that he had anything to do with this, but there was the suspicion that maybe he was getting preferential treatment, that that was why the gag order was being issued. Absolutely. And again, all these suspicions are false. What we encountered through our

reporting was that the law enforcement officials, the detectives, the sheriff, who were involved in the investigation and were so proud of their work, having cracked a really serious case and a really violent, heinous homicide in a place that does not have a lot of homicides. They were really put off by the fact that there is this continued suspicion that their work is bogus. They know and they've told us the secrecy

that was imposed on this case at the start is what's damaged them permanently. And they don't know that there's ever going to be a day where the sheriff is going to go with his wife into the local supermarket and somebody is not going to raise questions about the legitimacy of the investigation. But, you know, Arkansas, we've worked in places like this. It's a small state. And there is a real belief, justified or not, that there's still a good old boy network

that operates. When you have a situation where you have the prominent former senator who had just come through a really awful, ugly public divorce and she was divorcing a prominent former judge in that region, and you have a gag order as Broad as we've been talking about without any public justification offered There's almost no way if you're the average person reading the newspaper or watching TV It's almost no way for you to avoid the possibility Is that the good old boy network at work right trying to somebody, even if it didn't turn out they needed to protect the judge.

So you began, even before I got involved in the case, you reached out to Becky's family, and also those inmates who had been informants. I mean, the whole Becky thing in jail, and that she's trying to create this whole other conspiracy theory, right, around the judge, and she's trying to put her head out on people.

What was that like reaching out to people once you started to sort of lift this veil a little bit and you started reaching out to try to line up some of these interviews? What about Becky's family and also those informants in the jail? Well, Becky's family has maintained a line of communication with us, but they're reluctant and have continued to be reluctant to say anything on camera. It's hard not to feel for these people. Their grownups, their mom did a heinous thing. And a shockingly heinous thing, too, that nobody would have seen coming.

Right. So they've been incredibly respectful. There's nothing but feeling bad for them. The thing about the informants, going back in time, the case was still bizarre. There's this heinous crime, there's all the specter of the conspiracy theories that investigators are looking at, we started looking at,

and there are these crazy gag orders that are barring any real information from coming out. Then there was the strange episode where Becky was put on a restricted status inside the jail. In the end, it does make sense, but at that time, nobody could explain it, where Becky was put on a restricted status inside the jail. In the end, it does make sense, but at that time, nobody could explain it. So she spent Thanksgiving alone inside the jail,

not able to have any contact with her family. Her family didn't know why. And then out of the blue one morning, we find out that they're adding charges to Becky's case that she had tried to enlist these inmates to then kill the prosecutor and the judge, Phil Smith. Unbelievable. And Phil Smith's new wife.

The truth is they know that sometimes there are inmates who will try to better their own position by snitching on other inmates. They take that into account. They thought that these women inmates who were there, who were telling the story, were totally believable. And they took what they were saying seriously, and they filed these additional charges. We don't know what's going on,

so we're having all these conversations. Finally, actually, one of our enterprising producers in the investigative unit here at ABC, Kate Holland, who has been part of this story since the beginning. She goes to Arkansas and tries to convince the lawyers to convince their clients, the informants, to do an interview with us. And I don't know if it was a week before the shutdown

for the pandemic or a month, but it was right as the pandemic was barreling toward American culture, American society. Somewhere in March or April of 2020. Kate does this interview with two of the three informants who had never planned to tell their story. They haven't told their story since. Their story is just so remarkable.

You rarely get this. You rarely get the people in jail who are informants in a case to actually be willing to go and tell a national television network their story. But these women really had quite a story to tell. Yeah, yeah. They absolutely had a story to tell about Becky trying to create more of a smoke screen when it comes to this story, which was absolutely incredible. We can't get enough of the WNBA. A fresh draft class has arrived. Dallas wing select Paige Becker.

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FX's Alien Earth premieres August 12th on FX and Hulu. Let's talk about Linda's kids because we were talking about the family members who were clearly affected by this. Her daughter, Tate, and her son, Butch. And they were very, very reluctant. I remember when I sat down with them, they were very nervous. I was worried that they might not really want to talk that much. We sat down with them in a little theater that they had acted in as kids. The family had been very much into theater and that was very important to them in terms of a touchstone for their childhood.

He had on a red tie, she had on a red jacket or something, and then I thought about how I had seen the red casket, and I suddenly realized they had come there, trying to pay tribute to their mom in this way, and they were just so emotional, but just began to talk so lovingly of their mom and everything they had gone through. I was so touched and so

shaken by their story and Butch having found his mom, he just could barely hold it together talking about his grandfather and they both were there at the house and he's holding his grandfather back. For them to tell us that they pointed the finger at their stepdad, they were convinced right away it was the stepdad who had done it. That answer blew me away when they told you that they believe that it was their stepfather, whom they spoke of really lovingly. Of course. Like a father to them, he was not a stepfather.

He was a dad to them. Absolutely. So to hear them admit to that feeling, as ugly as that is, really showed a remarkable level of candor, I thought. That's the first thing. And they came across as completely genuine and really there to pay tribute to their mother and wanting to tell that story. of candor, I thought. That's the first thing. And they came across as completely genuine

and really there to pay tribute to their mother and wanting to tell that story. What I got the sense of, you know, Linda was a woman who came to politics not as a kid right out of college, but as a grown woman who was on her second marriage, who was already a business owner. And kind of scrappy.

Yes, so Butch and Tate were not born into politics the way that some people are, even in small town politics. They were sort of thrown into politics. They used the term voluntold. Voluntold, yeah. That they were going to work on Linda's campaigns. So it's like they were thrown into a maelstrom.

Like they never, as little kids in elementary school in Pocahontas, Arkansas, they never seemed to be prepared for this, well, they're going to be the kids of the leading family in their area in Arkansas. And they were thrust into a really bright local spotlight. When you are the children of the leading judge in the area and the leading political figure in the area, you can't go to Walmart without people knowing who you are. You can't go to the supermarket dressed the way you just rolled out of bed to pick something up

and not have people recognize you. And especially Linda, because she talked to everybody, they said. I got the sense that these were grown people who had been thrust into a maelstrom that they weren't ready for as kids, and then were rethrusted into the maelstrom with all the unbelievable media coverage.

And we've seen this so many times that people are going through these personal tragedies when a family member is killed. But if it's a public person, then they have no choice but to live that mourning and grief in the public eye, which is compounding. And then you had all these other really tough episodes they told us about at the church for the memorial service. They were given the weight of knowing that the killer

might show up in that. Might be at the weight, yeah. They don't know who that is. The police wouldn't tell them, but you may shake hands with the killer. They had extra security there. They're trying to grieve their mother. They're worried they may be shaking hands with the killer. They don't know what's going on that's surrounded by cops. I have

no way of being able to explain it from personal experience because there is no experience that prepares you for it. And also too, they had gone through this bitter, bitter divorce between the two. And that had taken its toll too. I could definitely see that with Butch. He even said to me he had to put a little distance between himself and hisch. He even said to me, he had to put a little distance between himself and his mom. He was raising his family, he had his children, which is one of the reasons he wasn't calling his mom

right away when she wasn't there, because people may wonder, like, how is it the days went by and they didn't talk to the mom and how come they didn't come running right away? Well, Butch and Tate were grownups with their own lives. Tate lived someplace else. You know, they did talk to their mom pretty regularly. Tate, in fact, had touched base with Linda

to make sure she had gotten home okay after her trip, and Butch knew she'd gotten home. But these are busy adults with their own jobs and their own families. And by the same token, Linda was busy too. She was no longer employed as a state senator. She was traveling, she was flying to Washington to meet with an organization about a job,

she was seeing a new guy. You know, we're talking about three grown people who all have a lot going on. I don't know about you, but I don't call my parents that frequently. It's hard to be critical of somebody. Everyone's just trying to lead their lives. And all of a sudden, Linda, who lives by herself,

in her own home, she all of a sudden didn't respond. Finally, it took a couple of days and Tate did sense that something was wrong. The text messages had turned the different color on the iPhone. Indicating her phone is either out of service or out of order or something like that. And Linda was somebody who always had her phone. She was always putting something on social media. So when Tate stopped hearing from her mother after Linda landed in Arkansas She got the cues that something was amiss, but then they asked Becky what's going on and Becky as we now know

She knew what had happened because she had killed Linda But she was telling the kids who weren't living at home with Linda moms with the boyfriend moms here What whatever the line was it was just very, don't worry about it. Trying to cover her tracks. Exactly, and it was early spring, it was nice weather, mom had been traveling, maybe she's with her boyfriend. There was a story that the boyfriend lived out

in the sticks with bad cell service. That's not unbelievable in Arkansas. Right, right, right, right. So there were all these reasons. I have to tell you that interview with the two of them just really sort of shook me. You could feel their pain and you could just see that this was something so traumatic, particularly for Butch having found his

mom and found her in a way that was really, really stunning. I mean having seen these clues of the blood in the house and then finding the tarp outside and all of that and people were still trying to figure that out. Like why would she kill her in the house and drag her outside? And I think we still couldn't quite figure that out. She's never given the police any real understanding about the crime. In fact, the police have said that it was a crime of passion,

that she killed Linda because Linda had confronted her because Linda realized that Becky was stealing money from her. But Becky has never given anyone that information, nor was she ever charged in connection with this alleged theft. This was what the investigators working on the case say happened in the lead up to the crime of passion.

They were able to find that there was money missing and put the pieces together. Linda's father had explained that he had had a couple of checks that were written in his account, not with his handwriting, they were strange checks, not in Linda's handwriting. And there are a lot of things that are hard to understand. But the one interesting thing is remember that the images in the video where Becky's manipulating the knife, the murder weapon, and her lips are pursing and unpursing very,

very quickly like a flutter almost. The investigators believe that that's a sign of somebody who's in the middle of a highly charged psychological reaction. It's like they attributed to the fact that she had just killed this woman. And that's obviously a thing where you're, you know, you're emotional and your endorphins and adrenaline are flowing. And so it's entirely possible that she wasn't thinking as clearly as she thought she was. Or maybe she thought she was gonna get rid of the body in a bigger way and then couldn't do it

and couldn't get there or whatever and just stopped right there in the driveway. I mean, how many times in covering true crime, how many times have we heard that killers don't realize how heavy dead bodies are? There are any number of possibilities here, but we did see the other strange video, that ghost-like image where police believe it was Becky, comes back after

dark with a sheet over them and it's captured by the camera again. What was going on there? Was there an effort to clean up the murder scene? We just don't know. Still so many unanswered questions here. Hopefully one day we'll get a chance to hear from Becky. I don't know if that'll ever happen. There are so many moments in this case that just stand out for me, you know, talking to Becky's ex-fiance, who stood by her side the whole time and just, you know, wouldn't believe it and eventually came to the conclusion. And this big burly guy who is just like still rattled with emotion over this.

We've covered a lot of these crazy stories that you just wouldn't believe, right? They're stranger than fiction. Any one on this one that just knocks you out more than any of the others you've covered? For the life of me, I can't understand the secrecy. I feel that that is really the great unanswered question. We've seen crimes of passion. People steal, people do things and they regret them and they try to hide them. Well there's jealousy and revenge and all of that.

All of that, not to excuse any of it, it's all understandable. We've seen it a million times before. It's very biblical. And to me, if there's nothing to hide, then why are you hiding? That really is the whole question that we still have to this day about the nature of the secrecy, the sweeping gag orders that were associated with this case, especially in the early months, why they were put on, what they were worried about. It's just so strange.

And it's so strange because you see covering it that the secrecy worked against them. Right. So they were acting in such a strange way to harm themselves when the easiest thing in the world would have been alright prosecutor go tell the public, go hold a press conference. We've seen it a million times. We've seen it with big cases, with cases connected with political figures in Washington. Go answer the questions, say what happened. This bonus episode is a production of ABC Audio and 2020. Reporting by Chief Investigative Reporter Josh Margolin, the producers for ABC Audio

are Vika Aronson, Meg Fierro, and Susie Liu, with support from the Nia McLean. Matt Lombardi is a 2020 senior producer, and the producers for 2020 are Tom Berman, Sandy Evans, and Allison Lin. A special thanks to Brian Mazursky, Lisa Soloway, Kim Powers, and Josh Cohen. Liz Alessi is vice president of ABC Audio, and Janis

Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. I'm Deborah Roberts and thank you for listening. King of the Hill is back. They got a Bob's in the airport now. Oh, that's Boba. World has changed, Dad. Bobby wants to bring that new girl over for dinner. The vegans? What the hell am I supposed to feed her? Can't we just put some grass in a bowl? From Mike Judge and Greg Daniels.

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