3 Takeaways - A Former Prime Minister of Israel Speaks Bluntly (#205)

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has a special perspective and wise insights into the battle against Hamas. Here, he shares his thoughts and suggestions on ending the war, securing the future for Israel, dealing with Iran, the need for a Palestinian state, and more. There’s reason to be both hopeful and concerned. “To eliminate Hamas as if it didn't exist is impossible. … It is an ideology, and no military action can remove ideology from the face of the earth.” “I am more worried about the solidarity of Israeli society than I am about the enmity of our outside enemies.”

The Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th was horrific, as is the war in Gaza now with its widespread bloodshed and destruction. Is peace possible and how? Hi, everyone. I'm Lynn Thoman, and this is Three Takeaways. On Three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Today, I'm excited to be with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. As Prime Minister of Israel, he backed the creation of a Palestinian state

and the withdrawal of Israel from most of the West Bank. He offered what many consider the most generous peace deal Israel has ever offered. As Prime Minister during the 2006 Lebanon war, he also has a unique perspective on Hezbollah and Lebanon. I'm excited to find out former Israeli Prime Minister Olmert's perspective on Israel and the possibilities for peace. Welcome, Prime Minister, and thank you so much for joining Three Takeaways today. Thank you. Why do you think that Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th? And why do you think they chose to attack the way that they did?

I think we have to separate these questions. Why did they want to attack Israel? They attacked Israel for years, endlessly. In attacking Israel, there is nothing new. When we pulled out from Gaza in 2005, the famous disengagement, which was conducted under the leadership of Prime Minister Sharon, I was his vice prime minister, and I was very much involved in taking the decision and implementing it at that time. A day after we pulled out from Gaza, they started to shoot us. And actually, even before we pulled out, while we were still around, they were attacking us on a daily basis.

And one of the reasons that we pulled out is we said, number one, Gaza is not Israeli. It's not part of the state of Israel. Why should we be there? Number two, we perhaps may hopefully reduce the desire to almost endless attacks. But we knew that they look at us as our enemies. They have a philosophy, a fundamentalist, radical, extremist philosophy, religious, which does not recognize Israel to have a right for existence altogether. And therefore, for them, there is not a question of peace.

There will never be peace between us and Hamas because they don't want to make peace with us. They don't want to acquiesce. They don't want to live alongside the State of Israel and perhaps improve some of the conditions or change some of the circumstances. No. For them, the result of their existence is the elimination of the State of Israel. So, the fact that they attacked Israel is not surprising.

They were doing it before for a long period of time, almost on a daily basis. There were rockets attacks on different settlements and outposts and townships across the border, even some deeper into the state of Israel, and there was nothing new about it. Why did they attack on that particular date? There are many questions.

I'm not sure that there is any guess or any knowledge, intelligence, knowledge about that can accurately decide, determine what made them attack on that particular date. The common wisdom amongst some experts in Israel is that they decided to attack on that particular date. The common wisdom amongst some experts in Israel is that they decided to attack on that particular time because the process of creating normalization between Israel and the Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia, together with America, was coming to a point where it may have become a reality. And that would have meant a major blow to the extreme organizations because it would have included the Palestinians within that broad concept and would have eliminated the relative significance of the terrorist organizations, because then the Palestinians

will become part of the new axis of Arab countries and the Americans and Israel, which are now buying themselves together in opposition to Iran. So since Hamas is, in many different ways, is the long arm of Iran, apart from their own nationalistic religious claims against Israel, I think they chose the date before perhaps this new political development would have become a reality. And therefore, it could have been a month later or a month earlier, but this is the timing that they thought was appropriate in order to achieve their goals. Why did they attack in this particular way, in this brutality?

Because this is them. They are brutal. They are terrorists. They are killers. In 2007, when Hamas took over Gaza from the PLO, and the PLO are Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority is made up of PLO organizations. And they killed them then in Gaza in a similar way. They butchered, they made every possible atrocity that you can imagine. So this is the nature of this organization, just as ISIS, just as Al-Qaeda, just as the Taliban. These organizations have no limits, have no values, compassion, of respect for human beings if they are not Muslims.

And that's how they do it. Sad as it is. So sad as it is. As prime minister, you backed the creation of a Palestinian state and offered in your negotiations to give up almost all of the West Bank. How do you see a two state solution now? Emotionally, psychologically, you know, it's very hard. Yeah.

People talk about to say now after all that has happened, after the brutality that they have manifested, can we even think about pulling out from the territories and creating a Palestinian state? And perhaps, as some people wrongly say, we will expose Israel from not only in the south, but in the east part, which is a much longer border. To the mercy of these Palestinians, this is terrible. But I think the realities are a little bit more complex.

At the end of the day, let's assume that we will successfully accomplish what we have set out to do, which is to destroy Hamas completely. I don't think it's possible. I think that this is way beyond. It's not because of any lack of power on our side. We are very powerful. We have destroyed most of the Gaza, as we know, and we moved a million and a half people from the north to the south,

and there were thousands that were killed. Unfortunately, regrettably, also quite a few of non-involved civilians which were killed in this war. And so the spirits are very high, the emotions are very high and very intense. And, you know, it's very hard to, I don't believe that if we would have called now the population and asked how many of you support the creation of a Palestinian state that a majority will do it? Something that they were prepared to do in 2008 when I was prime minister and I proposed it to the Palestinian leader. But when the dust will disappear and we will have destroyed all of the Hamas,

there are still six million Palestinians in Gaza and in the West Wing. And the question that Israel has to answer is, what do we want to do in the future? What do we expect from ourselves? Do we want to continue to be the occupiers of the Palestinians, 6 million of them, forever? Is it possible? Is it acceptable? Is it tolerable? Is it something that the world will acquiesce with, or that Israel will become a pire in the international community, the countries will boycott Israel, which they do already now, at such a close distance to the brutalities that were perpetrated by the Palestinians. Well, what if after all of this would have been ended, and Israel would just continue

to be an occupier? Is it going to make anything better for us or for the Palestinians? I really don't think so. So whether it's far-reaching, whether it's complex, difficult, sensitive, you know, seems to be not quite popular amongst different factions in the Israeli public opinion, at the end of the day, we don't have any alternative. There is only one alternative. If we want to pull out, if we want to separate from the Palestinians, If we want to help direct their energies, their interests, their desires, into building their own country, then at the end of the day,

we have to reach an agreement with them to a two-state solution. So it depends very much on their leadership and on our leadership. Their leadership has to be reformed. The Palestinian Authority has to become a lot more ambitious in creating the necessary facilities and organizations within themselves that will

help them move forward into a process of meaningful negotiations on a comprehensive solution of this nature. And of course, we have to have a different leadership. We have to have a different leadership. We have to have a leadership which is prepared not just to say that they want peace, but that they are prepared to make the necessary concessions that will make this peace realistic.

And this is where we are. How do you see the war in Gaza? As I said already, I think we have reached a point where I don't think that there is any merit in continuing this military effort. I don't think that if we will carry on this war in Gaza, that in the end, we are going to gain so much from now to then that will be worth the terrible cost of it. And the terrible cost is the loss of many Israeli soldiers, because this is a war. And in the war, they are shooting,

and in the very complex circumstances now in Gaza, with all the debris which has spread all over the place, they are hiding, they are shooting an RPG, they hit an Israeli platoon, five are killed, Five are killed. Two are killed. Twenty are injured. And it's the in, the out.

So it will not end. So I don't see any, at this particular time, any merit. And, of course, if we will not bring the war into an end, there is not a chance to save all the hostages, which are still kept by the Hamas. There are 120 of them. And so I think that we have A, to stop and make an agreement for the return of the hostages.

Of course, it will require also the release of Palestinian prisoners, but this is a complex. Everyone knows that it will be inevitable. What we have to do is to stop the war, bring back the hostages, pull out from Gaza, bring in, instead of Israel, a military intervention force made up of, hopefully, of Palestinians and Arabs from moderate Arab countries like Egypt, like Jordan, like Emirates, like Saudi Arabia, that will establish a very forceful and effective security force that will block the return of Hamas into a dominant position in Gaza.

And there should be also an administration that will be linked to the PA, which will be in charge of the rehabilitation and the restructuring and the rebuilding of Gaza. And there should be also an international effort with the rich countries to bring in the necessary revenues to be able to build Gaza again. At the same

time, I think that if we will do this, what we need to do in addition is to make a public, formal, and international commitment that Israel is prepared to embark on negotiations to have a comprehensive

peace agreement with the Palestinians. Who will be the partner on the side of the Palestinians? I don't want to say. There is a Palestinian authority which has been built as a part of the Israeli-Palestinian agreements in Oslo, the Oslo Agreement going back 30 years. But the specific personalities that will dominate the Palestinian Authority, I don't think that this is our job, the Israelis, to decide for

them who they will prefer to be their representatives and their leaderships. They must be people that believe in making peace and not in making war with Israel. It must be made of people who agree with all the agreements that were signed from Oslo from 30 years ago with Israel, rather than people who are prepared to fight. Therefore, they can't be Hamas, they can't be Islamic Jihad, they can't be all the different terrorist organizations, because they are the enemies of peace. They are enemies of the Palestinians, if the Palestinians are prepared to make peace with us. But there are enough Palestinian people

that I'm familiar with, which can be part of this governing body of the Palestinians that will negotiate with Israel. How do you think that the residents of Gaza view Hamas? I don't know to speak for them. I think that what we have seen is that they are cooperating with Hamas. But are they cooperating with Hamas because they have no choice? Are they cooperating with Hamas because Hamas has been using force and coercion in order to make them partners? I think that this is probably what happened. Hamas is a terrorist

organization. They have no mercy on the lives of anyone. If the population would have not partnered with Hamas, then people would have been killed and eliminated without any hesitation. So this is one reason why, whether they deep in their heart are sympathetic to the Hamas, I'm not certain. But the outer expressions of cooperation and support is quite obvious. I think that if there will be a political option offered to the Palestinians, they are likely to fall in love with it. But I think they need to see that there is a realistic plan for the day after. Is there an opportunity for Israel to draw a distinction between the Hamas fighters and the vast majority of Gazans? I think we should.

I think we should. I think the Hamas are killers. And also the vast part of the population are not. They are just human beings. They want to live in peace. They want not to suffer. They want not to be bombed. They don't want to be eliminated.

They don't want to have to force to leave where they live and go kilometers to the south in order to save themselves from the military operations perpetrated against them. So I think that there is a basis for such partnership. We have to show what is our concept of the day after. And I think the Palestinian leadership has to assume the necessary responsibilities in order to break the bonds of Hamas in order to prevent any further attempts by Hamas to engage in a military confrontation with Israel, which at the end will result in the mass suffering in Gaza. Do you think that Israel can completely eradicate Hamas? And if so, how? I don't think so. I think that we can dramatically, the military power, which we did,

we can destroy the tunnels, we can destroy the command positions, we can destroy most of the launchers of the rockets, and we did it. But to eliminate Hamas as if it didn't exist is impossible. This is a way of life. This is the ideology. And no military action can remove ideology from the face of the earth. You talked about a more positive future. What would a more hopeful future look like for Gaza? What would a more hopeful future look like for Gaza? What would a positive strategy be?

I think to start and rebuild Gaza rather than to continue to be under the inspiration and the leadership of the radicalas as a result of the military operation of Israel, and the possible introduction of a governing, moderate governing body in Gaza, which is not Hamas, then maybe the circumstances will offer a chance to change the quality of life and for them to separate completely from Hamas. We haven't yet talked about Iran or about Lebanon and Hezbollah in the north of Israel and the risks of a wider war. How do you see the situation? Well, Iran is a threat. There is no question about it that all these different forces, the Houthi in the south, in Yemen, Hamas, the Gaza, Iranian militias in Iraq and in Syria, and of course Hezbollah are all part of the strong arm and

the long arm of Iran. Therefore, Iran is a major threat. There are different attitudes about it, about Iran in Israel. I personally think that Iran is a threat. We have to be very careful not to allow them to penetrate any further. We have to be prepared to fight against all their collaborators, including Hezbollah and Hamas and the Iranian militias in Syria and in Iraq. But we hope not to have to fight directly with Iran. Iran is 80 million people. This is a huge country and a highly populated country. I think that this is something

that we have to share the responsibility for stopping Iran between us and America and other Western countries. And I think America is prepared to be part of an effort of this nature. Hopefully, there will not be a need for a military confrontation with Iran. But if there will be such, I think that this is mostly the interest of the United States to lead this effort, and Israel should be a supportive part of it, but not the main leader that pushes towards a direct confrontation with Iran. Why is Iran so aggressive toward Israel, both directly as well as through its proxies? I think they don't like us.

You know, it's sometimes as simple as that. They don't like us. You know, it's sometimes as simple as that. They don't like us. Israel, for them, represents the way of life, the culture, which is the most powerful threat to the Ayatollahs and to the religious fundamentalism that they represent. And they say, probably Israel is not different from America in this respect, but America is America. It's the most powerful nation on earth. They think that Israel visits seven and a half million people in a vast area where maybe 300

million Muslims live. I think that they look at this as a very unnatural fact of life, which has to be changed. And their way to change it is to eliminate the state of Israel. And therefore, I think this is the main problem. And Iran is the spirit, the inspiration, the most powerful nation of this nature, and the inspiration to some of those organizations and countries which cooperate with Iran. We have to fight where our possible achievements can be of the greatest possible value to Israel and to leave the war against Iran to some kind of military cooperation between Israel, America, and other countries. Can you summarize what you think that Israel should do? Right now?

Mm-hmm. Make a deal that will bring back the hostages, pull out from Gaza, rebuild and rehabilitate many parts of the state of Israel which were affected, reach an agreement with the government of Lebanon that will allow all the Israelis that are still vacating their houses in the north part of Israel to go back home. And what do you think about offering Palestinians a more hopeful future? I think that if Israel will embark meaningfully into a two-state solution with the Palestinians, I think that will offer a horizon for the Palestinians, which they never had before. And I hope that, except for the time that I was prime minister, even then, they didn't have the courage or the wisdom or the commitment to sign the agreement, which was, I think, the realization of the dreams, the political,

the realistic political dream of the Palestinians for many years. So we will see. But I think that if the Palestinians will know that we are prepared to establish a Palestinian state or help establish a Palestinian state, if they will know that we are prepared to establish a Palestinian state or help establish a Palestinian state, if they will know that we are prepared to compromise completely with those that we fought with before for the sake of the future, they probably will have a very positive perception of the future. How about humanitarian aid and rebuilding?

Obviously, I think we have to allow the humanitarian aid. I think any attempt to block it will be a terrible mistake. What do you most worry about? What are the greatest long-term threats that you see for Israel? To be honest with you, I'm more worried about the solidarity of the Israeli society than I am from the enmities of our outside enemies. Outside enemies as part of the life of Israel since 1948 and even before. So there is nothing surprising about it. What we are lacking now, as a result of the nature of the Israeli government, its rhetorics, its attitudes, its completely lack of any degree of responsibility, their desire not to be held responsible in any way. I think that all this is something that we have to deal with.

Can Israel remain both a Jewish state and a democracy? I hope so. I hope so. There is no question that Israel is a Jewish state, even if there are 20% Arabs living in the state of Israel. But in order for us to be able to live with the Arabs, we have to be fully democratic as we are, as we were, within the boundaries of the 67 borders. Anything outside of the 67 borders where Palestinians live without having any fundamental

human rights and political rights is not the epitome of democracy. And this has to change. We have to pull out from the territories in order not to occupy people and deny them of their natural rights. What are the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today? Number one, that Israel is a democracy. Number two, that Israel needs to have all the Israeli hostages back, the sooner the better. And number three, that we are prepared to make peace with the Palestinians on the basis of compromise, of mutual respect, and of responsibility for the future of the region.

Thank you, Prime Minister. Thank you for taking the time today. Thank you. If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are, please review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at threetakeaways.com, where you can also listen to previous episodes.

You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, and Facebook. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is 3 Takeaways. Thanks for listening.