3 Takeaways - Joy is a Risk Worth Taking (#324)

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

What if joy isn’t a reward for when life goes well, but the thing that helps us survive when it doesn’t?Psychologist and Stanford lecturer Kelly McGonigal reveals that joy is not the same as happiness, and that many of us quietly push it away without realizing it.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why happiness needs everything to be good, while joy needs just one thingWhy so many of us protect ourselves from joy, and why anxiety can feel saferHow power and success can make connection, and joy, harder to reachWhy people in war zones, hospitals and hospice understand joy bestHow to follow the news without being consumed by outrage and fearThe simple practice of “meeting joy with joy”Joy is not something you wait for.It is something you can create for yourself and for others.Kelly McGonigal is the author of Joy Is a Risk Worth Taking.

We spend so much time wanting to be happy that we miss all the everyday joys right under our noses. My guest today literally wrote the book on finding more joy. Hi, everyone. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is Three Takeaways. On Three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Today I'm delighted to be with Kelly McGonigal. Kelly is a health psychologist, Stanford lecturer, who studies how we can find hope, meaning, and connection even when life is difficult.

Her new book is Joy is a Risk Worth Taking. Kelly, welcome to three takeaways. Thank you so much for having me here. It is my pleasure. Your father told you he had experienced joy only a handful of times in his entire life. What happened when you started asking him about those moments? Yeah, he was just sort of an off-the-cuff comment that he had only experienced joy a few times in his life. And when he told me that, I initially took it at face value and thought, that's so sad.

How can that be true? I've witnessed my father his whole life. I've seen him laugh. I've seen him play with his grandchildren. I know what he loves. I know how much he loved teaching through his career. And so I decided to just ask him, well, tell me about those few experiences, what was one of the times in your life that you experienced joy. The first story he told me about was the first time I smiled at him when he was feeding me with a bottle a week after I'd been born because my mom was still in the hospital.

I'd never heard that story before. And in fact, each story he told me a moment of joy that he remembered was some aspect of his personality or some side of him never really seen before. Like the satisfaction he got helping a stranger in the bus station or the fact that when he was in seminary training, when he still thought he was going to become a priest, how he would break the rules to dance in the rec room when nobody else was there because he wasn't supposed to be dancing. and the conversations themselves were such a source of joy. And a little bit after we started having those conversations, he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, an untreatable form, and given a prognosis of very little time left to live. It was actually because of those conversations that we had

that I think he was more open to allowing me into that part of his life and being there for him in that time. and we had opportunities to have more conversations and talk more about favorite memories in a way that was really meaningful. How wonderful that you and your father could have that conversation that could bring you together at the end of his life. When you talk about joy, what are you actually talking about? How is it different from simply being happy?

Most people, if you ask them, are you happy? they start doing this kind of intercalculation, like how many problems do I have? Am I stress? Am I rushed for time? Am I worried about a loved one? Is anything in my body in pain? Do I feel optimistic? There's this calculation that happens. And most people, if they're going to just say, yes, I'm happy. They're looking for a readout on that calculation that's like everything is good. Joy functions really differently. It says at least one thing is good. In this point, moment or in my life, I can recognize something that makes life worth living. Sometimes it happens as a flash of delight, a moment of laughing with someone or a hug. It's a sense of feeling good

about something you did and realizing that something you said or did matter to others. And if you start to think about joy as having a function to help you also notice what matters in your life, to really increase your attachment to an investment in the roles and the relationships, the activities, the obligations, the places that really are part of what makes life meaningful to you. That's different than thinking about happiness, which often people think, like, what do I need to do in order to be happy? I think of joy not as something you're aspiring to feel, but as something that you can experience every day.

And when you do, that experience of joy can really point you on a trajectory of engaging with life in a way that I think most people aspire to. What are some things that have brought you joy in the last couple of days? One of my beautiful cats right now is very sick. We don't have much time with her left. And when she was able to come to me today and sit between my legs, I felt the pressure of her fur against my leg. And I felt the sense of such joy and gratitude that she was here and we had this moment of connection.

That's an example of something that brought me joy. I taught dance class this morning, teaching dance class. often brings me joy. And one of the students, it had been her birthday last week, and we had done a couple of her favorite songs and cheered for her because it was her birthday. After class today, she told me how meaningful that was for her. That really brought me joy. Those are just a few examples. You argue that we don't merely overlook joy. We sometimes actively resist it. Why do we protect ourselves from joy? In cultures and countries all over the world, it's quite common for people, to say things like, I don't want to let myself feel too much joy because joy is always followed by

sadness. Or if I'm really happy, it means that something will happen that makes me feel much worse. So one of the reasons that we resist joy can come from this worldview that actually has a lot of wisdom in it that life is always changing. It's not possible to have everything go well all the time. And sometimes there can be a belief that if I allow me, myself to actually acknowledge how much I care, how much I'm hoping for something or how much someone or something means to me, it is going to increase the pain if that changes or it doesn't work out or if I lose what I love or who I love. It sounds like some of us are more comfortable being anxious than being happy. Anxiety is a really comfortable state for a lot of people.

It can be by temperament, by genetics, biology, and also from learning and experience. Certainly when you're worrying, there can be a sense that you are controlling outcomes. You're thinking about what could go wrong. You're planning. You're prepared. And that can feel quite grounding and safe. Even though people will say they don't like worrying, they're actually using the worrying process to make themselves feel more prepared for things that could go wrong.

And we like that feeling. But I think that all of us are capable of finding more balance in how we use our attention and the choices we make about what to amplify, we can balance all of those tendencies with like a values-based commitment to also amplifying what is good in ourselves, in others, or in life. Amplifying what is good sounds wonderful, but there's also a lot of pressure in our culture to stay informed. Can you be joyful and follow the news every day or are we setting ourselves up to be

miserable. No, of course you can follow what's happening in the news. Some of the people who most understand the necessity of joy are people who are working in conflict zones with people in crisis, people who have survived tremendous trauma, people in hospitals, caring for children with life-threatening diseases. It's actually people who are in touch with the reality of that who most understand the necessity of joy to help us survive what's hard. there's no value in trying to enter a kind of denial about the state of the world. It can be very important to understand what's happening in the world, even if you yourself cannot solve it or fix it or change it.

And at the same time, one of the reasons that people can become overwhelmed through exposure to the news is a lot of the news and a lot of media, including social media, is packaged to generate very specific emotions that. we then are left with those emotions and not a clear way to resolve them. So much of media is meant to trigger outrage. I can't believe this is happening. What's wrong with people? What's wrong with the world? And that outrage is an emotion that would empower us to take corrective action to help people or to stop things that are wrong. And of course, when it's coming at us through the news, we don't always have an opportunity to take action for all those things. So we get left with that

feeling of I want to create change, but I don't see the avenue for doing it. And the other big emotion is fear. A lot of media is meant to make us afraid of things that could happen. And we're left with that feeling of, I'm not safe. What if this terrible thing happens? We need that sort of experience to balance what can become an overwhelming sense of badness in the world. It sounds like what you're saying is that we should all take the time to notice all. all of the joy in our own lives. For me, I try to appreciate all moments during my day, whether it's savoring my coffee in the morning or a beautiful day or going out to walk. So I have a much greater appreciation for the world around me as I think about that. It's easy to embrace

joy when life is going well. But most of your work is about joy when something genuinely terrible is happening. Can you talk about the role of joy then? If you were to put yourself in a situation, if you were to imagine yourself in a situation that you would hope never to be in, imagine yourself with a certain level of fear or loss or physical pain. And you were to be really honest with yourself about what in that moment would help. It is the things that bring us joy that help. And that's true in hospice situations. It's true in war. zones. It's true after natural disasters when people who have survived are dealing with tremendous loss. It's true in hospitals. It's true in situations where people are in real pain. And the things

that give people hope are the things that bring us joy. One of my favorite studies, actually was a study that looked at people who were in palliative care or intensive care or in cancer care. And they were asked to provide a photograph that would be put near their hospital bed. that was how they wanted to be seen and known by their health care providers. And almost 100% of people, they don't choose photos of achievements or, you know, where they looked really good, they're not choosing glamour shots. They're choosing photos that either were moments of joy or that were photographs of something that brings them joy in life, like a photograph with family members or photograph doing an

activity that brings them great joy, photo with pets. They want to be known by the people who are taking care of them as someone who is capable of joy, as somebody whose existence brings joy to others. And they view the photographs of joy as being the thing that says, I'm more than is a disease. I'm more than symptoms. I'm more than my pain. I'm a full human being whose life has mattered and whose life continues to matter. That's how they want to be known in that moment. And when people recognize them in that way, people feel so validated, they experience more hope, they feel cared about. And the healthcare providers feel uplifted too, is allowing people to experience their full humanity and to continue to be in touch with the parts of themselves that they feel make a difference in the world, the parts of themselves that can experience things that bring them a pleasure, that they are capable of laughing, that they are capable of. of connecting. And the possibility to appreciate beauty, connect with others, help others, those capacities

persist even in very difficult situations. What do you think our culture is getting most wrong about joy right now? The biggest mistake people make about joy, particularly when they're trying to increase joy for themselves or for others, is to view it primarily as a passive or consumptive experience. Like the classic example will be, I'm going to treat myself to a square of chocolate, or I'm going to notice something wonderful like a shooting star. And this idea that joy comes externally and separate from the core roles and relationships of your life. People often put joy in its own little category of things that almost have nothing to do with you. And it's a kind of a pleasure. And a lot of the advice that I hear that's meant to help people experience more joy,

doesn't ask people to like, think about what you did at work today, did something you did, make life easier for someone, or make someone smile, help get closer to a goal or a vision that you believe in. That's also a source of joy as much as a shooting star. And so I would say that to trust the content of your life as a source. of joy and not think that you have to look outside of the roles and relationships, the places you spend time for something that's kind of magical or that's something you need to like go out and buy in order to savor. That stuff is already in your life. And if you're looking to make a

moment of joy, it can be just within those very basic roles and relationships or the places you're in. It can be very close to home. If someone listening thinks they're just isn't much joy in my life right now, what would you want them to start doing differently now? When researchers have asked people all over the world, what brings you joy and what gives you hope? One of the most common things that people say is to be thanked by someone I've helped or to see someone helping someone else. So I would say that's where I would start because you don't actually need to feel joyful to do those things. Sometimes there are reasons why joy is a feeling, hard to access. You could be depressed. You could be grieving. You could be dealing with a health

condition. You could be experiencing pain. There are many things in life where sometimes our capacity to smile and laugh and feel carefree or feel these positive emotions. Sometimes we just can't access them to the same degree as we might have been able to at another time in our lives. And that doesn't mean that joy is out of reach, but it can mean recalibrating maybe what it means when you think about joy. So rather than having to act happy or force yourself to feel something that you're struggling to feel, if you really think about joy as a life affirming signal, it is a signal that tells people life is worth living, you matter, you aren't alone, good things are possible, there's beauty in the world, you can choose to do something that puts that signal in the world. And by helping someone,

or by thanking someone for helping you. And those are something that most people can do in any circumstance. And that by doing either one of those, helping someone or letting someone help you is an act of joy. And then thanking them for helping you, you are doing something that makes joy possible for that person, for other people witnessing it, for the people in that person's lives

who might benefit downstream from them having been helped. And then you yourself, you may actually feel that warm glow, that uplift, that's where I would start. Should people keep joy lists? Yeah, that's one of the first experiments that I give people is to look for something every day that brings them joy as a way of becoming more attuned to the good in their lives or a way of becoming more sensitive to these nuanced versions of joy, particularly for people who define joy as extreme euphoria, to start to notice that there are these more subtle life satisfactions, moments of meaning or connection,

the small uplifts that really do matter. And actually, their significance is easier to appreciate when you give yourself the goal to notice and appreciate them. But you can also learn a lot about yourself too. So if every day you keep track of one thing that brought you joy, at the end of a month, you look at it, you're going to learn a lot about who you are, what makes life worth living to you. And so it can be a nice exercise and self-discovery as well.

Kelly, what are the three takeaways you would like to live? leave listeners with today. My first takeaway is to meet joy with joy. When you show someone else that their happiness is a good thing, you let them know that you care about them and that their happiness matters. Second takeaway, trust what you love. If there is something that brings you joy, that is an important resource in your life and that is a beautiful part of who you are and something that you can trust.

My third takeaway is to understand that small moments of joy matter. Joy does not have to be commensurate and scale or size to all of the stress or problems or worries that a person is going through to make a meaningful difference. You can craft those moments and savor those moments and know that their significance will often be felt more deeply than might be apparent superficially. and that that is one of the ways that we continue to feel meaning and hope and connection when life is difficult. Kelly, this has been wonderful. I really enjoyed your book. Joy is a risk worth taking. Thank you so much. If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are,

please review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at Three Takeaways.com, where you can also listen to previous episodes. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, and Facebook. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is Three Takeaways. Thanks for listening.