3 Takeaways - NBCUniversal Vice Chair Bonnie Hammer on AI Celebrities, Interactive TV & the Future of Content (#241)

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

The media and entertainment world is evolving at warp speed. One person who knows where it’s headed is the legendary Bonnie Hammer, former vice-chair of NBCUniversal. Here, she shares her thoughts on the critical importance of content, why TV shows are more popular than movies, the role of AI in creating entertainment, and much more.

Media will change in ways that we can now only begin to imagine, with the possibilities of immersive, personalized, and interactive entertainment, as well as AI-generated celebrities. What does this future look like? Hi, everyone. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is Three Takeaways. On Three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Bonnie Hammer. Bonnie was vice chairman, NBC Universal from 2020 to 2024. As someone who rose from an entry level production assistant job, whose chief charge was a dog,

to vice chairman at NBC Universal, Bonnie Hammer knows all facets of the media and entertainment business. She was named vice chairman of NBC Universal in 2020, and she also led the creation of Peacock, NBC's streaming service. She has just published a new book, 15 Lies. I'm excited to find out from her what the future of media and entertainment looks like. Welcome, Bonnie, and thanks so much for joining Three Takeaways today. Hi, Lynn, I'm delighted to be here,

and I'm proud to be one of your guests. It is my honor, Bonnie, to have you as a guest, so thank you. I was surprised to learn that TV shows are far more popular than movies and that TV shows and series account for roughly 75% of viewing. That seemed really high to me, but as I thought about it, I realized that it made sense when you consider that TV shows and series are longer and have more episodes than movies. How do you think about series and how do you choose and shape shows? Is it based on algorithms? One of the reasons TV shows are more popular are they're simply more accessible.

That people can be home, they could be on a plane, they could be anywhere. And these days, thank you to technology, they could watch them easily, tune in, tune out, without having to worry about losing continuity for two, two and a half. And sometimes movies like today, again, where there's an intermission. So there are a couple of easy reasons why TV shows are so popular. One is that the other

is they're addicting. Years ago, we used to produce TV shows that were 20, 22, 28 episodes of season. Now they're shrinking to six episodes, eight episodes, 10 episodes as you stream them. They're addicting. People can watch them. They can choose as you stream them. They're addicting. People can watch them. They can choose when they watch them. They can watch two, three, or one at a time. And it's easy. But shaping content is really what's important.

Whether it's a big time movie or a television series, it's about character. It's about substance. It's about substance. It's all about content. And now wherever the media industry goes, you know, started with broadcast, then got into cable, now we're streaming. The only thing that's important is great content.

That's what people need and want to see. That's what makes the industry. And what did every series that you greenlit need? What makes great content and how do you shape it? Great characters, people that others can relate to. We started many, many years ago at USA, which oddly now in 2025 is the buzzword. We came up with something called Blue Skies Programming. And Blue Skies Programming was about upbeat drama with a dollop of humor and characters that you could relate to. They were imperfect, but they weren't completely negative or bad characters. And it was about really great content that was relatable to everyone. And you could understand

them, get into their thinking, get into their mindset. And I take a look at what's happening right now with Suits, which we've developed and produced in 20, started in 2011, launched in 2011, 2012. Nine seasons worth, has just come back in the past year and has been a top 10 series on Netflix after 13 years, which is pretty incredible. And that's because it was relatable characters who were imperfect, but you were rooting for them to succeed and stories that related to your own life in one way or another, even if it was a stretch.

So interesting. You mentioned Netflix that suits is now on Netflix. How do you see Netflix and Amazon Prime Video? Well, the truth is I wish we had bought Netflix really early, early in the game because they had the right idea in terms of growth and what they wanted to do very early on before any of us really believed

that streaming would be the future. I think they are incredibly well done and organized entities that are producing bold content and getting it out there. Amazon is amazing simply because the media business is one of its smaller parts. The marketplace supports everything that's happening on Amazon. So the amount of funds going in there gives that team a lot of possibility.

Netflix is basically based on content, only content. And I give them a lot of credit in terms of what they've been able to do since the inception and where they've taken it. It seems like the big blockbusters, the movies, the shows, and the events are increasingly popular. How do you see big blockbusters? Do hits rule now more than ever?

Hits and blockbusters will win more at the box office. They are produced so they can be seen on big screens that have big effects, and they need to go globally in order to get their money back. But I would say they're fewer and relatively speaking from years ago, far between because they cost so much money, and there's no guarantee what they're going to do with the box office. When you think about a box office movie, it's great to be able to go to a theater and have that option,

but these days they always have the back end to depend on, whether it's the company's own streamer or selling it to a Netflix or an Amazon or whoever else they're going to sell it to. Years ago, they couldn't quite get the same amount of money from backend sales as they do now. But blackbusters are meant for the big screen, and that's why they're done with the hope

that they would bring in top dollar globally. Is the strategy on producing content now bigger, fewer, better? Or what is the new strategy on producing content now bigger, fewer, better? Or what is the new strategy on developing content? I think each entity looks at it differently. For blockbusters, I do believe it's fewer, bigger, better, spend on fewer entities, but do them well and do them big. I think for television, for streamers right now,

it's kind of the opposite. And I'm slightly worried about that as somebody who grew up in content, loves content, that it's more producing more for less. Almost going back to the old cable model, where instead of looking at certain series for nine seasons, 20 plus episodes per season, it's trying it out as a six, eight or 10 episode entity, not spending as much as you would have years ago,

seeing where it goes and then going to season two, going to season three. Doesn't often last away old cable and broadcasted where you can go into season eight, season nine, or the Dick Wolf series, go into season 15, 16, 17 and onward. So I think the model for blockbuster movies for theaters is one way. More investment, fewer, but for series, more series, less expensive. Less expensive.

How does digital technology and social media change the role of talent? Is power shifting to the stars? I don't know how it's affecting stars right now or developing stars right now. I think as you probably believe it, I would assume you do. There's a great upside and a huge downside to digital media and digital in general. It's based on how it's being used,

if it's used for the good, if it's positive support, it's based on how it's being used, if it's used for the good, if it's positive support, that's great. But when I see how unfortunately certain digital, not media so much, but how digital is being dealt with with the younger generation and the kids right now, I worry about it. I worry about it for them, I worry about it for the future,

I worry about in terms I worry about it for them. I worry about it for the future. I worry about it in terms of credibility at large. So can it be a fabulous support? And has it changed my life in a lot of positive ways? Yes. But do I worry about it in terms of the effect it has on the younger generation and their addiction to it? Absolutely. Is power shifting to the stars

with their huge social media followings? I think it's a supporter of the stars and can help make stars, but could also help break stars. I think it's a double-edged sword, depending on how it's being used by them and their representatives and their press people. But I also think it can turn in a really ugly direction when social media goes astray because

of what influencers do who are not supportive of them. Like so many things these days. Yes. We haven't yet talked about artificial intelligence. Right now, AI is mostly used to recommend what we should watch or listen to based on past behaviors. It seems on the cusp of becoming a full-fledged content creator. How do you see the future of AI as a content creator?

I think it has some interesting upsides and some scary downsides. As an aid, a support, a degree of helping research or play with characters or play with writing, there's a fair amount of positivity connected to it. But I think that if it is exclusive and trusted and not double and triple checked, it's extremely dangerous. And I also think it's a crutch where when you think about creative from my generation, our generation, It was all inside the head,

working with others, using your own creativity. Yes, you did research, but the writing and everything about it was yours or your team's. Now it's hard to tell whether something comes out of ChatGBT or whether it's really come out of somebody's brain. I've played with it recently just for the fun of it as I look at other book proposals

and it's both fun but scary what I got back. And it worries me unless they're the right amount of controls around it in terms of all of our businesses, of what the filters are, how it's used, not that it's used. Yes, I think that that's a worry that we won't be able to understand what it's recommending or what it's doing and essentially that we'll need another AI to check an AI, which seems a fraught situation. Another impact of AI that seems to be on the cusp of happening

is interactive and immersive experiences. It's so exciting to imagine watching a movie or maybe a sports game and being able to jump into the scene itself using virtual reality. How do you see the potential of interactive and immersive experiences? I love the idea. I love the potential. It's been around for a long time. Years ago, we had these goggles that we would put in, and you'd have a depth of field and you'd be seeing things around you, etc. And that was, I remember when we were doing Mr. Robot with Rami Malek, that was the first show where we actually experimented on a short piece for one of the

film festivals where it was completely virtual. And it was truly interactive. And it took us a ridiculous amount of time to shoot and put out. I think we had like nine cameras to do, shoot and put out. I think we had like nine cameras to do less than six minutes of video. It was a fabulous, interesting experience, but it's been a long time since we even tried that for it to get to a place where it's common usage. Again, like everything, I think it has some fun, wonderful potential, but if it gets in the way of human beings having live interaction with other people, we're going to have problems. How do you see the potential of interactive experiences where viewers can influence the show in real time? As someone who's an old media type, literally and figuratively, it frightens me a bit. How do you react when somebody can get into the middle

of something affect the thought process of many others live on something you've spent so much time creating and producing? I don't know. That makes me a little nervous personally, but again, I'm an old media gal. What role do you think that biometric data, like heart rate, eye movements, or even neural feedback

will play in shaping personalized and interactive entertainment experiences? I think it will have a place and time for it. I mean, I look at data right now, had only to do with lifespan, aging, dementia, things that affect age in people as we move along. And I realize how much I don't know yet and how much data is out there and how much all of

those things, whether it's your heartbeat, what challenges the heart, what challenges the mind, has already been developed and is out there to learn that I don't even have enough knowledge of at this point. Taking all of that data, all of that research, and using that as a tool to see how people react or interact with experiences, both live or mediated, is a pretty incredible thought. I don't know how quickly we'll get there, but it is telling. If you're watching something that is so dramatic and is action packed and somebody can actually check to see what that heartbeat increase is and how quickly it decreases, that's an amazing tool

to judge whether your action scene is working. Yes, and as you mentioned, double edged before, that to me seems the epitome of double edged. It could make the experience so much more heightened and it could also be so much more addictive without that. I think of almost everything we're talking about in terms of the present and future of media, of a eye of television versus film. All of it doing less content for more money, doing less content for more money,

doing more content for less money, all of it is a double-edged sword. If there's so much of a bulk of content that everything feels the same, why should people tune in? As opposed to have fewer greater series that you're almost back on a schedule, you're definitely going to tune in

when that show comes on, at Peacock or wherever, because it's quality as opposed to, eh, just feels like another show. Same thing with blockbusters. If there are fewer to go to, to a movie theater, why bother? Why just not wait till it comes to the screen? All double edge.

What do you think about AI generated celebrities or actors or musicians? It truly worries me because when you think about the legality and everything else with taking content, taking a talent, using AI to replace them in a song, in a movie, in a television series, in re-editing or whatever, it is very scary to me because it will take away jobs. It's illegal.

It is already being used in illegal ways that there is conversations about where it's just trying to fix something on screen or in an audio track, and it's AI fixed. How far they take it to me is a bit dangerous in terms of, again, where are the controls? Where are the filters to know when it's good and usable and right and saving some money and time versus just wrong? In terms of creating those characters digitally, I wanna see live people doing shows with live performances, even if recorded, taped, filmed, whatever, or digitized, but are human beings doing those jobs

as opposed to AI generated. It's a form of art, yes, but I'd like it to stay art, not get in the way of jobs. What are you most excited about in media and entertainment? To me, media and entertainment is only about great content. And it's the younger generation coming up, creating the next batch of content, of great ideas that relate to today's world,

today's society, today's characters to see what they will bring. There are some amazing young people out there right now who are super creative. And I kind of want to see where this generation goes. It's all about content. No matter how you look at media, the only thing that counts is great content.

Before I ask for the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today, is there anything else you'd like to mention that you have not already talked about? People always talk about the change in media and that they look at every single change as the end of an era or the end of a form of content or a form of distribution and that it's

going to change the whole world. Fortunately and unfortunately, I've been in the business a very, very long time, and what you learn is that change is a constant. There's no way to stop it in any way, shape, or form, but it never destroys anything. It just moves on, tweaks things, changes things,

but again, within media, the only thing that will count at the end of the game is great content. So embrace that change, because it's the only thing you got. And what are the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today? With all the changes in the media world, when you think about box office to streamers from cable broadcast to streaming, the only thing that really counts is great content. And great content has all to do with great

characters and topics that people can relate to, that they can feel, that they can emote. So in my mind, the only thing that matters as we move forward with whatever distribution of media is creating great content. The other thing I would say is it doesn't matter about your age or your stage. Creativity is creativity. And not to be afraid to use it and try to move into whatever media world you want. And use your thoughts, use your ideas and try to figure a way to put them forward.

The third is people always say don't sweat the small stuff. But when you're in the media world, you have to sweat all stuff in order to create great things. Nothing is too small to think about or worry about for great product. Bonnie, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Well, thank you. This has been fun and I hope we can do it again.

If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are, please review us on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at ThreeTakeaways.com, where you can also listen to previous episodes. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, and Facebook. I'm Lynn Toman, and this is Three Takeaways. Thanks for listening.