32 Thoughts: The Podcast - Decentralizing the NHL Draft

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Jeff and Elliotte talk about the NHL's ongoing discussions around decentralizing the Entry Draft (5:30). They dive into the economic landscape around the NHL and the dip in attendance in a gate driven league (22:00). Next, they get into the upcoming Alex DeBrincat revenge game (37:00).  Jeff and Elliotte also talk about the Golden Knights' strong start, their lack of a Stanley Cup hangover, and their organizational strengths (42:00).   Jeff and Elliotte answer your questions in the Montana’s Thought Line (48:00).Email the podcast at [e-mail] or call the Montana's Thought Line at 1-833-311-3232 and leave us a voicemail.This podcast was produced and mixed by Dominic Sramaty and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Just call Elliot, he'll tell you where I live. Out in the woods where he eats tree bark, as you told me before we started podcasting today. I had the nerve to have a bite of chickpea salad. This is chickpea salad. I mean, why don't you just eat like a table? No, you said bark earlier. Same thing.

Actual bark. 32 Thoughts is always brought to you by the new 2024 GMC Sierra HD. We have a lot to get to. And Elliot, I know you're getting a lot of feedback about the idea of decentralizing the draft. I'm going to ask you when teams need to respond to the NHL on this one. But let's start with Patrick Kane. Let's lead strong.

Not in the league right now. We know he's going to make a return at some point. What are you hearing about patrick kane well i wanted to start with this because i wanted to give you some credit which is not easy for me to do because we know you play a very minor role on this podcast but someone was listening to the podcast the other day and gave me a call and said that they are buying your theory on Patrick Kane and Dallas and you know like there's been a lot of talk about Buffalo there's been some talk about the Rangers I have been pushing Florida because I do think right from July 1 Florida was aggressive in letting it be known. They wanted Kane to go there.

But I had someone, and this is a relatively smart individual. Patrick Kane. It's Patrick Kane himself. It's not Patrick Kane himself. It's a good guess, though. It's Jim Nill. It's Jim Nill, GM of the Dallas Stars. Do you think that Jim Nill would waste his time talking to me?

Not a chance. But he said he thinks that uh dallas is put it this way he said if he was putting down money he would put down money on the stars the only thing the only thing this person said to me about dallas that he doesn't like for kane is that dallas does not have great travel which is true they're kind of that is true unfortunately they are in a bit of the middle of of nowhere there when it comes to the rest of their opponents however uh it's a good it's a great place to play it's a really good team and it's a really good team and Dallas is one of those teams that they can play they can play fast they can play east west they can play all sorts of different ways and he thinks it's a fit for Kane

in that way so just something to remember you know that's interesting too because uh you're right that uh the travel is not great for the Dallas Stars as As a matter of fact, it's real the two goalie system, right? Like they were one of the teams that were deliberately dressing two goalies and splitting the workload. And mainly it was because of the travel that they just, you remember, it was Kari Lettinen and Antti Niemi. And it wasn't a 50-50 split, but it was pretty close to it. And the reason was they felt that starting net minders for Dallas were getting burned out by playing so many games on top of all that awful

travel. So in a lot of ways, Dallas was ahead of the curve, the two goalie curve in the NHL, the 1A and 1B, and that was all about travel. And if anyone missed it, I mean, my thinking on this is one, Jim Nill and the Dallas Stars are in and around a lot of different players at different times. I think they're in on Patrick Kane last season as well before he went to the New York Rangers. And I just look down the right side after Joe Pavelski and see a ton of spots where Patrick Kane can fit. And also, I still remember Patrick Kane playing with the London Knights of the OHL, and he looks good in green. But then, Elliot, as you've heard me say before, everybody looks good in green. We'll see where this one goes.

I have chosen my team because of how I look in their uniforms. Yes, it really goes well with my eyes and my complexion. Decentralized draft. This really took on a life of its own over the past week or so. First of all, when do teams need to respond? Over the couple of last few days, you've talked about the NHL sent memos to 32 NHL teams asking for their feedback on the idea of changing the draft and decentralizing it, not unlike what

we see in the NFL, for example. Teams in their home base, they make their picks from their arena, from their offices. The players are at a banquet hall or an arena or some type of venue somewhere they're not physically in the same place as the gm who selects them now the reasoning for this as you've laid out before is we kind of have a collision here between the draft which is late june and free agency which is julyst. What is the latest here? So the responses have to be back by next Tuesday, the 24th. And basically what the league said is they want one response per team, one vote per team. So for example, if the president or the owner feels one way

and the GM feels another way, that doesn't work here. It's got to be one response per organization. They made that very clear. They don't want, well, some of us feel this way and some of us feel that way. Sure. No wishy-washy. Give me a vote. No wishy-washy.

Give me a vote. I'm really amazed at how much feedback, just in my personal conversations and calls I've had about it, and text message conversations, whatever. There's a lot of opinion on this. A lot. And there are a lot of people who believe that there's something to be said for face-to-face conversations. You know, one agent joked with me, if you want to get rid of tampering, change the draft. Because the agents and the teams can't get together and talk. But, you know, for example, Gary Lawless told a story in the Vegas broadcast of the Jets game on Thursday night that George McPhee told him that one of the reasons they drafted Tom Wilson in Washington was they got a chance to meet meeting, and that convinced McPhee that he was going to take Tom Wilson.

And there are managers who will tell you that certain moves get made because of face-to-face conversations at the draft. I had some young people reach out to me and say, people who are younger, newer in the business, one of whom I've never communicated with before sent me a note saying that the thing that he was most concerned was for young people entering the sport. He said it's a great networking opportunity, that one of the ways he got his foot in the door was networking at the draft. And he would hate to see that go away. And I know that that's not going to be uppermost

in anyone's decision-making, but I wanted to mention that. I had some people- Can I jump in on that one really quickly? Because there's one very specific event that I can think of where a trade happened and the discussion around it for the team that was acquiring the player took place at the draft and extended after the first round was done. I think you know where I'm going on this one. It was a 2015 NHL draft.

It was at the BB&T Center in Sunrise. That's Kessel, right? That's the Kessel trade. Right. So this is the Connor McDavid draft. And after the first, was I standing next to you? Was it you and I that were talking about this? Because I remember leaving after the first round and

all the tables, we all know this, after the last pick is made, everyone packages up and they're out before the player hits the stage. I really don't like that, but that's for another conversation. Except for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Like they stayed and I was up in the stands and although I couldn't hear the conversation, you could tell that it was heated. pounding on the table. People really like very, not angrily,

but in a very profound way, making their points about something. Later, Phil Kessel ends up getting traded from the Toronto Maple Leafs to the Pittsburgh Penguins. And that was that conversation. And that all revolved around that first round at the draft. And it was the pounding of the table and both sides trying to make their points. I'm with you.

I think the more face-to-face conversations you can encourage, like you've heard my goofy idea before about trade deadline where you run it like the draft and everybody's in one location, there are 32 tables. You shoot it as a TV event and you see general managers walking from one table to another to make trades. I think it could be dynamite television, but the idea behind it is you're getting people talking face to face. So I think that really does carry some weight and does have

some resonance for me. Okay. So let's talk about some other things. I had some people who said to me, how much money are you really saving here? Considering the millions of dollars that you're spending on some of these players, are you really saving enough money to- So hold on. So what you're talking about here is the idea of flying your entire staff to one city and then flying them back to their home base.

Yes, yes. Okay, just so our listeners have an idea. That's what someone said to me. For the millions that are at stake selecting these players and making these decisions, is the savings really worth it? Now, I had some people who said to me, yes, hotels jack up the prices. And maybe what they're also saying is if you have your situation rooms at home or in your market, maybe you don't fly in as many people. I don't know.

The teams are going to have to decide this. Another one said to me that one of the things he likes about inviting only 20 players is that nobody's sitting in the crowd for seven rounds. Now, I don't know i think some people may show up anyway uh but um you know that was one of the things that somebody said to me maybe you have less people sitting there for a long time whatever the case is jeff and as i said as i wrote and i said to you the other day I don't support this I like the big get together that this is but it's very clear people are incredibly passionate about it there's a lot of noise and feedback about it and I know like I had I had I know that people are really talking about it. Like, what do you think? What do you think?

You know, like the league has basically said here, they've basically punted this decision into the team's hands. What do you guys want? And I'm really curious to see where this turns out. The interesting thing that I found, and again, this is just my eyeballs, my timeline, people who interact with me. So by no means is this perhaps reflective of the greater hockey community, but two things were sort of overwhelming to me, Elliot. One, what I found is the lion's share of people who I either read or interacted with by way

of DM, text, phone call, everything was keep it the way it is. We like it this way. We like the way you do the draft. Don't move it an inch to the left. Don't move it an inch to the right. We like it. Thank you very much. The other thing, and this is sort of a

sidebar, like you really lit one on fire here because it got a lot of different conversations going and some tongues wagging. And what I found was this led to massive conversations about changing the NHL schedule to accommodate the draft and then time off for free agency on July 1st? Did you not find that this is sort of bled into, well, it's about time they started the season earlier, got rid of some preseason games, tried to get the playoffs out of June, et cetera, et cetera. Did you not find that this topic led into a conversation about the schedule? Here's the problem with that we're going to talk

about attendance here i know people don't want the season to start any earlier particularly where they have to deal with the nfl i keep saying the same thing i know i understand that but that's that's the one thing that uh rightly or wrongly that this topic sort of bled into. I'll be curious to see where this goes because I don't know how much – this is going to sound bizarre. I will say – let me just say quick. I completely agree with you that one of the issues here is the draft is the 28th and 29th last year and this year.

And then if you're not close to Nashville where it was last year or Vegas where it's supposed to be this year yeah and then if you're not close to nashville where it was last year or vegas where it's supposed to be this year like that's that's a real hike that's that's a real hike and i get that but i'm just not convinced the season like we're you know one of the big debates this year is is about attendance and like winnipeg doesn't have to deal with the nfl but one of the big topics this year is attendance you are going to meet people who are absolutely adamant adamant that you are going to make attendance worse if you put more games in nfl season so i just don't know if yeah i don't know if you're going to be able to to do that anyway let's get there yeah let's get there let's this is a big big debate big big conversation well here let me just throw one more thing out there just for just to have it on the table when teams are making

their minds up about this and keeping in mind that fans are the customers, and I understand that this is going to be team decisions based on what's best for their team. How much do you think these teams would take fans' desires or fans' wants into consideration? Because I'm sure you have friends like mine, Elliot. These people that much like Grateful Dead or Fish concerts follow the draft wherever it is every year because they love the way that it is done. They like the GMs, all the personnel, the scouts, the hugs, the tears, the big stiff handshakes from the agent, the presentation of the jersey, the handshake from the commissioner. They love all of that. And that's part of the attraction of the draft. A lot of fans love this. How much do you think teams take that into consideration?

Or are they just thinking what's best for them? Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because we had a conversation on your radio show today and I wanted to talk a little bit more about it. I think you, like, I'm always careful, like 20, 25% of people have a Twitter account. So you have to be careful that you're not dealing with an echo chamber. But I did notice that a lot of the reaction from fans was overwhelmingly negative. So I, you know, these people are the people who buy your tickets and buy your merchandise, so you have to listen to them. But one of the things I believe, and maybe they should even do it whether they change it or not. Remember last year during the

Vegas Summer League, which is basically after players get drafted in the NBA, they have a league for rookies and young players, young free agents who are trying to find places. And they have it in July in Las Vegas. It's become very popular. And a lot of the NBA players who are more established go. And last year for three days, July 7th to 9th, they had what they called their NBA convention, NBA con. And I was reading about it and I was looking at some of it online. And I think that the NHL draft should be turned into NHL con. And basically what they do is they have live entertainment. They have conversations with legends. And you could do things like, for example, the NHL has their coaches convention. The NHL Coaches Association has their convention.

You know, I've hosted some panels at them before. I love them. They get coaches who come and NHL coaches who come. And, you know, coaches come from everywhere to listen to these people speak. And you could have a three-day event around the draft, merchandise, both league official merchandise and fan-created merchandise. You talked about an equipment expo, but like entertainment, panels, like a job fair. I want to get my foot in the door in the nhl how do i go about doing that um you know i don't know if players will will come because it's early

in their summer but you can have alumni can the alumni get involved like like i looked at this thing and i would i was saying there is room for something like this in the NHL. And I wonder if the draft becomes that thing. Is the draft now your NHL con? And that's what I would, I would really support something creative like that. And maybe we should do it anyway, because as you said, there are a lot of fans like to go and it's clear fans are passionate about drafts. Maybe we should be doing more to get people involved in it.

And that's what I would like to see, especially if they change the format of it. I should say, Jeff, too, also, one of the things that someone did say to me, too, is as a compromise, maybe they keep it and they say it's not 20 people per table. Maybe you cut it down to 10 or 12. Because one of the things that happens is it's so noisy that people on like if your GM's on the phone, like he's like yelling and other teams overhear them. phone like he's like yelling and other teams overhear them so i i wonder if it if you do something like that you say look we're going to spread the teams out a bit more we're going to

cut you down to 10 or 12 people i don't know i wanted to mention that too but the big thing i wanted to mention was the idea of an nhl convention i think it should be part of this. I love that idea so much. And I would extend it out to the American Hockey League, the PWHL, the ECHL. Hey, anyone who wants to go. The Hockey Hall of Fame should have a presence there as well. Like, keep going. I'm sure anyone listening right now has a million ideas of their own as well. Throw them all out on the table.

If you were putting together like there you go like i'm lee craze about this dm me and you know what dm elliot he loves when his dms get well it's the one of the things i don't like about twitter is that you know i if i don't follow you now you can't dm me right so uh it's it's one of the unfortunate changes like i would get a lot of crap in my dms believe it or not but Like I would get a lot of crap in my DMs, believe it or not, but also I would get a lot of good suggestions and ideas. So I kind of do just tweet them at me

or drop them off at Jeff's house address as follows. Yeah. Just call, just call Elliot. He'll tell you where I live out in the woods where he eats tree bark. As you told me before we started podcasting today. I had the nerve to have a bite of chickpea salad.

This is chickpea salad. I mean, why don't you just eat like a table? No, you said bark earlier. Same thing. Actual line. Oh, by the way, I really take great delight in catching you at the end of your workouts, by the way, just to see what you're eating post-workout. Well, you're going to tell everybody I finished my workout and I ate peanut butter M&Ms?

It's fine. It's hilarious. Sue me. I call Elliot today. Hey, what's up, bud? Oh, just finishing up my workout. Oh, I don't want to interfere with your workout. You finish it up and you give me a call back.

No, no, no. I'm just under the M&Ms part of the workout now. Nothing like completely destroying your workout with what you eat right after okay so now let's finally get there um the attendance we made a lot of that winnipeg jets los angeles kings game and the attendance that was a return of pierre luke dubois los angeles really handed it to winnipeg pierre luke dubois opened up the scoring uh trevor moore which is a laser beam of a shot

too but the number coming out of this one was 11,226 um Thursday night in the Buffalo Calgary game attendance was thin the Washington capital sellout streak has concluded um given that this is a a turnstile league this is a butts in seat league this is a gate driven league i don't want to say like asking how alarming is this but what are your thoughts on again early in the season but the trend of attendance being an issue the wrong way someone also sent me a photo of San Jose, Carolina the other night. And, you know, it looked thin too there. Number one, I don't like to panic early. As I said earlier, there are people in the league who feel very strongly that attendance is hurt early when football's on.

And it's not just NFL. It's also college football. It's also the areas where high school football is very big. And that's why you don't see the schedule made earlier. That is the number one reason. I remember talking about it quite deeply with David Boyle, and he would go into great depth about how much of a challenge it was in markets where football was big. And right now, football's king. Not only is football the biggest sport on TV, football is the biggest thing on TV. It's not unusual. And I remember I looked at this two years ago. I didn't look at this last year, but I think two years ago, 89 of the top 100

broadcasts in the United States were an NFL game. So that's what you're dealing with. And so I'm always careful. And I think the other thing I really do recognize here for our listeners is that, look, times are harder now. Inter are higher inflation's higher we have less disposable income so i always think it's important to mention that because i think in some ways you're almost insulting your fan no no i'm not mine almost insulting fans you are insulting fans if you don't point out the realities of the world right now. So I think that's important to mention too. People are really battling with the higher interest rates and inflation. But the message I think it sends is, you know,

Winnipeg is a phenomenal hockey market. We don't even need to talk about this. We don't even need to spend another sentence on this. Everybody knows how much the great people of manitoba love hockey buffalo they love hockey uh washington they love hockey they're a great they're a great nhl market the capitals and and san jose is a market that has shown great great strength and support for the Sharks. But what everyone's going to tell you here is in a gate-driven league, people say, how come my team doesn't rebuild? How come my team doesn't rebuild? Well, some do. Chicago's

doing it after a ton of prosperity. Anaheim is really committed to it as well and it'll be interesting to see where san jose goes over you know the next few years but don't say philadelphia the rebuilds over yeah they beat edmonton they won again but you know and and philly's doing it too but even philly last year you could see the big changes in their in their building i mean, how much did we spend time talking about that game where it was like a home game for the Rangers and all the Philly fans were pissed off? Yeah, that wasn't great. But if you look at the home opener, though, against Vancouver,

this is rebuilt, there's 18,000. You look at the game against the Edmonton Oilers on Thursday, there's, what was it, just underneath, just under 18, 000 like i think it's like 17 5 for that game like it's a rebuild but they're coming out right now yes fans are coming out yes they're coming out yes and and chicago's gonna have the bedard thing and and that that obviously helps them a great deal too i i just think that people are going to look at the majority of these cases and they're going to say, this is why in the NHL we don't rebuild. When Doug Wilson was the GM of the San Jose Sharks,

he would always say, we missed the playoffs once and our season ticket base got hurt. And that's why they never rebuilt after that in San Jose until now. If you take a look at Winnipeg, if Winnipeg had a top team, this wouldn't be an issue. And I thought Winnipeg made a really good trade for Dubois. They got Hellebuck and Shifley signed. really good trade for Dubois. They got Hellebuck and Shifley signed. I thought that would help. There's obviously a little bit of a malaise there. I had someone tell me that they feel the in-game experience could be better. I don't know how widespread that is. They have a dynamite social team. I'll tell you that. But the fact is they aren't winning and washington last year was just

the second time in 17 years i think they hadn't made the playoffs they won the stanley cup five years ago it just shows you in in in these leagues i don't think this is only hockey but in these leagues it turns quick really quick with the with the with the prices to get in and the cost of taking a family of four to a game if you're not winning people find something else to do and so when people say when fans say how come my team doesn't rebuild how come my team doesn't rebuild? How come my team doesn't rebuild? The attendance in some of these places at the start of the year, that's your answer. Because the teams see it can turn quick. You know, one of the newsletters I subscribe to is a guy named Ethan Strauss.

It's called House of Strauss. He does a lot of really interesting stuff and he had a piece Thursday where he talks about you know everybody's kind of like ESPN for the first time I think ever came out with their financials and it showed how much things are changing. And the NBA is looking for new TV deals. And I think everybody thought they'd get a big, massive number, and they still might. But he writes that there's some things he's seeing in this that make him wonder if there's trouble ahead.

And what have we talked about? the nhl is confident about where its economics are going about the cap going up but what's the one thing we've talked about jeff that they're worried about in the near future it's local television and cord cutting and what's happened to bally's so you know this is still a great driven league it's probably more gate driven than any other league around at least of the big ones and so as a result i think this is this is what teams say they say this is why we don't rebuild because we see what's happening in some of these situations and we can't take the risk so i think people have i think people have to look at that that's and again i understand costs are high i understand it's expensive right now

but when you wonder why teams don't rebuild this is why okay so i'm gonna get up on my soapbox here for a couple of moments. So indulge me, although I know how you feel about this. So I think you'll, you'll be on the same page. So when I hear things like teams are terrified to rebuild because of the repercussions on how fans will react. And I understand that to your point,

economically, it is very difficult, especially if your team is losing to go and support the local team through a challenging time. I get that. But when I hear talk like this about the fear of the rebuild, now you and I are of the same vintage. And I personally think saying things like the original six is about as ridiculous as saying the original 21. So here I go. The original 21, Elliot, when the NHL absorbed four WHA teams in 1979. There were 21 teams in the NHL in 1979, Elliot.

Oh, I'm so with you. 16 teams made the playoffs, Elliot. Fast forward to, I don't with you. 16 teams made the playoffs. Elliot, fast forward to, I don't know, five minutes ago. I am so with you. And 16 still make the playoffs. When you start to see attendance like this, and you know that teams are terrified of the rebuild, at what point do you have to have the serious conversation about expanded playoffs jeff you are preaching to the converted here you are so right these are

four words i don't think i have ever said together in a sentence before jeff you are so right that's actually five words. It's five. Liberal arts majors. Seriously. As you can tell, Jeff and I, not statistics majors. English and philosophy over here, yo. English. University of Guelph, 1994.

Oh my God, that's so funny. Jeff, you are so right. Five words I've never said. And I'll acknowledge some of the people I've seen on social media. They don't like it when I say this because there are some fans out there who are really against the expanded playoffs, really against it. And I acknowledge that. And obviously we know one guy with a lot of votes

is really against the expanded playoffs. But if you are worried about your attendance, to me, the simplest fix is to convince your fans that they've got hope. Right now, it's 50%. If you take it to 20 out of 32 because you expand and have a play in round instead of 50% of your league getting in it's 62 and a half percent of your league getting in. Yes. I used a calculator and if you expand, it's still a better number.

And like, I don't know what to tell you, Jeff. I think it's really simple and it's a really simple fix. I think it has to simple, and it's a really simple fix. I think it has to happen. But right now, you know what? You know what? It's a great question.

If Jets fans knew that 10 teams got into the playoffs as opposed to eight from their conference would they feel any different about their team i don't know they can answer that i'm not there they can answer it i can't but i know i would feel better about their chances i agree i i think a lot of fan bases that may or may not be coming out to games would feel the same. What do we always say about sports? You can sell wins or you can sell hope. It's a lot easier to sell hope when it's 20 teams are making the playoffs and not 16. I think it's time for the conversation. Okay, on that, Elliot, let's hit our first pause. When we come back, a couple of different things. It is the most anticipated game of the year.

And it involves two teams that didn't make the playoffs last season. Which two teams? We'll tell you next. 32 Thoughts continues. Listen to the 32 Thoughts podcast free on amazon music included with prime welcome back to the program elliot before we get to the most anticipated game of the season so far, two weeks in, the floor is yours. Yeah, two things I just wanted to mention.

First of all, this weekend is the Dallas Stars Hall of Fame ceremony. It's on Sunday night. I went last year, and I'm looking forward to it again this year. And going in are Ken Hitchcock and Ed Belfort it's a it's a great event and I just wanted to mention it that's a really nice thing they've done there people who had their numbers retired like Mike Medano they're already in and every year there's a vote to add one builder and one player so it's belfort and hitchcock this year both great choices for stars fans secondly jeff you answered a question this last podcast about who are the

next ones that we may not know of and you gave a whole list and by the way i gotta tell you your dupont answer the defenseman was very well received but i had one person man i had one person send me a note and saying you really missed somebody who did i miss and the name was james hains from the U.S. National Development Program. He's a 2025 draft prospect. So I wanted to throw his name in there because a frequent listener of the pod said that was an absolute swing and a miss by Jeff Merrick. And after giving you credit in the last segment, I needed to rip you in this one. Okay. Let me throw another one.

Here's how goofy, here's how goofy my life is. On my way to my, on a way to my kid's game today, I had a conversation with someone about, ready for it? Yes. Darcy Hortuchuk's kid who plays junior coyotes,

who's apparently really good. He's a 2009. So let's throw that log onto the fire wow that's too young that's 14 darcy darcy hordachuk i'm just saying like welcome to my life i have people calling me up saying have you seen darcy hordachuk's kid like no what year 2009 hold pump the brakes and everything here um but yeah it's a little snapshot into what my phone calls are like these days. Anyhow. Okay. Elliot, let me get to it now. It is the most anticipated game of this early NHL season. It is Saturday afternoon, one o'clock Eastern, the Ottawa Senators hosting the Detroit Red Wings. Two of the top teams in the Eastern Conference,

each with six points, each with identical records of three and one, will go head to head and the sidebar, sorry to all of it, the return of Alex DeBrinckit, who as we record this podcast right now, 10-57 Eastern, Thursday, October 19th, is tied for the NHL scoring lead. Eight points.

It's him and Elias Pettersson of the Vancouver Canucks. Yeah, I got to tell you that I said in our season opening pod that the Red Wings didn't really have a game breaker, and Debrinket is making me eat those words. I like the way Detroit started the season. It's hard not to like the way they started the season. I thought they looked really impressive against Pittsburgh the other day. And I'm really looking forward to this one because I also like the way Ottawa started the year. Norris looked great in his first time back. And I'm sure there's a lot of Red Wings who remember that Ottawa last season basically

ended their playoff race with two victories where not only did they beat the Red Wings, but they beat them up. They really physically dominated them and pushed them around. And even though Debrinket made a perfectly reasonable choice, he had the right to do what he wished as a player and go to where he wanted to go. It's not like Ottawa's fans are going to accept that. They're not going to say, well, we reasonably respect your decision. They're going to boo him mercilessly. It's going to be a great afternoon in that building. I'm disappointed that's not a night

game. We have to flex our national rights holder muscle. I'm disappointed it's not a night game. We have to flex our national rights holder muscle. I'm disappointed it's not a hockey night game, but it's going to be a great game to watch. Those are two teams off to a really good start, and they're two teams with a lot to play for in this game. They know that the road to respectability in that division goes through each other, and Ottawa pushed them around last year.

And look, Jeff, I just wanted to reiterate something I said on your radio show on Thursday. I do think we're getting closer to some kind of resolution in the Pinto situation. And I'm one of those people who does not call this a holdout. There is not a contract. This is a contract dispute, but I think we're getting closer to a resolution one way or another. So what you're saying then, if I'm reading you correctly, is this will be the return of Alex Debrinket, but the bigger story will be the return of Shane Pinto.

No, you're such a jerk. Am I getting your headline correct here? That's exactly what you're saying. You are the worst. You know what's not the worst? Put a smile on everybody's face, including his own, the return of Josh Norris.

Welcome back to goals, Josh Norris. That was awesome on Wednesday. Yeah, he played great, and I think everybody was happy to see it. I think that the thing that people were worried about was he was going to look tentative and nervous. You know, I think there's still... What's that?

Not even close. Not even close not even great because there was some there was a lot of talk about was it a physical problem or was the mental problem too was he still a little bit unsure about you know how he felt and how strong it was but as you said I think he put any of those doubts to bed he looked really good he looked really strong you know i i think there's a lot of interesting decisions to be made in washington too like to me they just look really slow you know really slow they've been a few reporters have mentioned them with garland you know to me that also makes some sense for them. I think they need some energy there.

They need some foot speed. They're just not quick enough right now to deal with some of these other teams. I'm not talking about Kuznetsov's shootout attempts. That's intentionally slow, not foot speed slow. I think that they need some juice. Like, to me, there's no question about that. By the way. That's the speed of my breakaways in men's league, by the way.

I'm looking at Kuznetsov and I'm like, yeah, I'm solidarity, brother. I hear you. I feel you. By the way, we can't get through this pod without mentioning vegas the vegas golden knights they won again in winnipeg yeah they have sent a note to everybody that they are the the that they are not starting this season with the Stanley Cup hangover. They're 5-0 now. Everybody notices this.

Everybody sees this. And they've already had some injuries, particularly on the blue line. They've had some shuffling they've had to do. Someone texted me after their game on thursday night and said these guys are still a handful and they've sent that notice to the league they're playing great and the wonderful thing about it too is and i really wanted to see it last season we didn't get it but we've talked before about how, you know, Minnesota has great games with everybody. Vegas has great games with everybody. Vegas has great games with San Jose. That's

bitter. They have great games with LA. They have great games with Dallas, but give me a Vegas Golden Knights-Colorado Avalanche game any day of the week. Whatever you have to do to make it happen in the playoffs. And I'm sure both teams feel the same way. I'm sure Vegas would love to stick at the Colorado again. And I'm sure Colorado would like to extract some revenge on Vegas in the playoffs. They'd love to have Vegas again. Just give me that.

Because provided Colorado, again, stays healthy, these two teams produce amazing games. Didn't you say that was your favorite preseason game? Yeah, it was a wild game. That Vegas-Colorado game? They wanted to kill each other. They really did, those two teams. That was preseason.

No, but... Give me that in the regular season. Vegas is for real. Again. I mean, that's kind of a stupid statement because everybody knows they're for real, but everybody expects you're not the same,

right? You don't have the same drive. You don't have the same energy. Like, you know, Cass Cassidy he's tough he grinds behind the scenes he doesn't show it publicly but he does it privately and you know it's still early and we'll see where this goes but you almost wonder if he's kind of the right guy for this like nobody's going to be satisfied here and i'm not going to let anybody be satisfied here and i think the people above them in the organization are kind of the same way we'll see but it's hard not to like the way they've started the year they've sent a message

the analogy i believe is vegas has not walked away from the table they are still very much at the table thank you very much despite the fact that Alex Petrangelo is injured you know one of the things we've remarked upon and is obviously anyone who follows hockey is you know they've basically come back with the exact same team Riley Smith is in Pittsburgh got it but you know they use that money to uh retain Ivan Barbashev and it and it's pretty much an identical team as last year. Whereas a lot of teams, as Glenn said, we would always talk about, in order to keep things fresh, you need to change it about 15% every year.

Vegas flies in the face of a lot of different things when it comes to team building. The idea that you have to draft and develop, flat tire there, not even close. Well, you know what? I don't agree with you on that i think they do draft and develop but not high like you know like detroit had basically won a bunch of cups because they beat everybody overseas and they drafted a bunch of guys late right and tampa was where they were because they had some great

picks later if you look at vegas they do find interesting guys or they find players like logan thompson was not drafted no he's playing college hockey in Ontario for Brock. You know, Nick Hague was a second-round pick. Okay, so let me back up there then. Because if you look at the roster... Paul Cotter was a fourth-rounder. Paul Cotter's a draft. Nick Hague's a draft.

Yeah, but not first-rounders. No, not first-rounders. Their first-rounders, they get rid of quick. They turn not first rounders. They're first rounders. They get rid of quick. They turn them into other assets. They turn them into other assets. And that's the thing that I'm sure Kelly McCrimmon would tell you. We draft.

We use players. We use our picks. We use our drafted players as assets to get other players. All I'm saying is, what I'm trying to say is, Vegas flies in the face of conventional thinking. And the conventional thinking was always, you have to draft and develop. That's the only way you can be successful. Vegas doesn't believe that.

And they won the Stanley Cup. But I think what they do is they target and develop. That's what Thompson, undrafted. Braden Pahala, defenseman. I like him. Undrafted. Zach Whitecloud, college free agent. And their pro scouting is good.

Like Chandler Stevenson. All the guys they took in the expansion draft. They find, you know, Keegan Colesar was a guy they traded for, who's become, you know, a really good piece of their team I think they're very good at identifying and developing maybe not the high picks but some of their other people that are now core on their team like i mean stone's obvious eichel's obvious petrangelo's obvious but some of their other players like william carrier was another guy in their expansion draft they just did a really good they do a really good job and even since the draft they've done a

really good job of filling out their roster with guys who don't come the traditional routes i think they're very good at identifying people. Truth. And you're right. They're a wagon. They look great to start the season. Time now for the Montana's Thought Line. Your questions, your comments.

Montana's Barbecue and Bar, Canada's home for barbecue. Elliot? Try the ribs. 32thoughts at sportsnet.ca, 1-833-311-3232. The email, 32thoughts at sportsnet.ca. 1-833-311-3232.

Lots of voicemails, lots of emails to get through this week. We've curated a few choice ones, and we'll start off with a voicemail. We're going to Fort Saskatchewan. Josh, take it away. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Elliot. It's Josh calling from the home of Ray Whitney, Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. Listen, the Monday show, you guys talking about Shane Pinto got me wondering, is he still allowed to skate with the team

as an RFA? Or, on the other hand, is there a rule stating that he can't, I don't know, sign a PTO with the Senators that would allow him to practice or play games with the Senators if he's not allowed to now? Or is there just something that says, nope, you're signed or you're not, and that's the end of the road? Great job, Elliot. Great job, Jeff. Keep it up, guys.

What does this guy have against Dom? Come on. Doesn't like Dom. Doesn't like Dom. It's a good question. Thanks, Josh. In theory, Josh, he could skate with the team. But I think in most cases like this where it's a contract dispute, they don't.

You know, there have been situations like Danton Heinen, for example. The Bruins have told him to wait. He's still around. Remember Scott Gomez one year with the Islanders. He skated with them i think for almost two months before he signed a contract stew barns one year when he was in buffalo he skated with them even though he officially didn't have his contract done in the pre-season so i think if there's an understanding that you're going to sign that you can do it but i think in this case where you're

still not signed i i don't think it would happen so there's no ironclad rule it's more like of an agreement it's going to happen why don't you come here or you're basically part of the team without a contract it's going to come here this is not that case. And generally in those situations, the player will go home, close to home, skate with the team there. We just talked about the Vegas Golden Knights. Nick Hague last year skated with the Kitchener Rangers of the OHL while his contract was getting worked out. Josh in Ray Whitney's home.

Great question. Thanks for the voicemail. And it's not Josh in Ray Whitney's home. It's Ray Whitney from Josh's home? Great question. Thanks for the voicemail. And it's not Josh in Ray Whitney's home. It's Ray Whitney from Josh's home. Very good. Very good. Let's get to Dylan in New York. Elliot, I think you'll like this one.

Hey, guys. I was at the Islanders' home opener last week against the Sabres. I know the story of Devin Levi meditating has been well told, but I have another theory. Every TV timeout, he sits in the slot and meditates. We've seen this. He goes pads down and he meditates. Is he doing that or is he just sitting there so the ice crew can't clean up the slots?

The ice crew cleaned around him every time, leaving a few feet of choppy ice right between the hash marks. Maybe he is just meditating or adding another layer to the game within the game. Would love to know if you guys have ever seen any other goalies do this or something like this to gain an edge. Now, the background on this is at the World Juniors, I think this was the bubble in Edmonton. Levi going all the way up, never played at a super elite level

and was never playing any games on television. So that was his first time ever being in a game where they had a TV timeout and he didn't know what to do. So when there was a TV timeout, he just skated out of his crease and sat there in front of the net because he was unaware of what you do during a TV timeout, he just skated out of his crease and sat there in front of the net because he was unaware of what you do during a TV timeout. And it became a meditative practice for him.

He used it to clear his mind, sharpen his focus on the game itself, Elliot, that's what Devin Levi does. But what I wonder, and I don't think it's anything, I don't think he's doing it deliberately to keep that part of the ice all chopped up. I think that that like legit, he's there to, you know, to, to, to breathe in and breathe out and calm himself down. What I do wonder about Elliot, at what point does the nhl step in and say you have to get out of the way because we have to clear the ice um the slot is a shooter spot and we need to have that cleaned up you can't meditate here sir i think he's completely cheating i think it's a great excuse but i think he is completely cheating. Apparently he's not. Like, this is legit.

This is Devin Levi, man. This is Devin Levi. Please. You think he's cheating? Of course. And I give him all the credit in the world for it. By the way, what I do appreciate, Dylan in New York, is Dylan's use of- Okay, hold on. He might be meditating.

Yes, but he's also cheating. I think he's meditating. I think this is legit. I think he's that guy. I really, really do. What I really appreciate, um, from Dylan in New York was this one line, every TV timeout, he sits in the slot and meditates. Now, what I like about that, Elliot, is he calls it the slot, not the slot area. One day we'll do a show on pet peeves. One of my big ones is the slot area. Oh, you mean as opposed to the slot? We add so many words needlessly in hockey. We have a good goal as opposed to a goal.

One of my biggest pet peeves has always been slot area. I don't know if that resonates with you. First world problems. First world hockey problems. Watch so much hockey that I'm being bothered by the term slot area. That's how you know you've watched too much hockey in your life. And it might be just time to pack it in. When things like slot area start bugging you or a good goal start bugging you.

You know what? Maybe this is an indication that it's time for me, Elliot. It's time for grandpa to go for the walk. Maybe it's time, Elliot. Maybe it's been too many games for me. I don't know what to tell you. I really don't know what to tell you. I really don't know what to tell you, man. That stuff does not rile me up.

You're quietly agreeing. Let's get to, this is interesting, an anonymous voicemail. Shoot. Hi, Jeff, Elliot, and Dom. Thanks so much for the show. Love it as always. With Easton releasing for a limited time

the new Synergy Stick, it got me thinking about different eras of hockey equipment. So what are your favorite pieces of hockey gear that have made their way into the NHL over the years? And what are the worst ones that you would never want to see ever again? I'm talking to you, Reebok Helmets, circa 2005, 2006. Thanks as always. Love the show. That's a great one. For me, I remember the first time I saw, I guess Tony Esposito might have been the first and then Mike Palmatier and Toronto Elliott with the cheater on the glove. I just thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

And I was a goaltender growing up and I loved Rogi Vachon and Joe Milosz and Palmatier was my guy. And when I saw the coolest thing in the world and i was a goaltender growing up and i loved rogy vachon and joe malosh and paul matier was my guy when i saw the cheater on the glove like everybody had to have the cheater right after then um but the one that i that i hated um because i got a pair of these and they were awful and murray wilson I believe in Montreal was the first to wear them. And I blame him for all the stiff boots and in the NHL ever since. Remember Microns? Oh, Microns, Elliot. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wish that I never put a pair on. They look bad. They felt bad, man. Those boots were so stiff. I know a lot of guys like really stiff boots, but man, to me, that really kicked off the stiff boot phenomenon. I know I'm getting into the weeds on this one

here, but I blame Murray Wilson. That's who I like to publicly blame and shame for the Microns, Murray Wilson, the popularizer of the Micron. Yeah, I would say the worst thing I ever saw were the Cooperalls. I thought they were pretty, I mean, at the beginning thing I ever saw were the Cooper alls um you know I I thought they were pretty I mean at the beginning I kind of liked them because they were different but then when because Philly was the first team to wear them and then Hartford went to them and the league said this is enough of this and and banned them and and rightfully so although I probably would laugh if I saw them come back for a game. My favorite piece of equipment is something I have.

When the first Stanley Cup I covered from beginning to end was 1999, which was Dallas over Buffalo. And when Buffalo lost that series very controversially. Oh, what happened? I came across Mike Pekka's smashed stick from when he went off the ice and it was in a garbage and i took it it was three or four in the morning i was still working at the score at the time we were doing our post-game coverage and i i just said you know what i'm taking this and i still have. It's been, this will be, like this Stanley Cup final is the 25th year

since that happened. And it's still in my garage. So I would say that that's my best. Would you ever ask Mike Pecca to autograph it? No, I think I told him I have it, but I don't like asking people to do stuff. I'm the same. I'm the same. I can't do it at all. I don't like asking people to do stuff i'm the same yeah i'm the same i can't i

can't i can't do it at all i don't like asking people to do things for me uh i'm not much of a collector um but i do have a ryan o'reilly stick with that wicked toe curve yep um that he gave me when i was doing do you use it i've taken it out on the on the backyard ice like on the backyard rink like i've never used it in a, in a men's league game or anything like that. I've never used it in an actual game. I've just taken it out back just to try it. It's tough to maneuver, man.

It's got a weird twist to it. And then there's that hook at the end. I mean, listen, my hands are nowhere close to right. That is true. And that, and that's obvious, but it's a, it's a pretty cool stick to wheel around with on the backyard rink. I've used it a handful of times.

But for a while there, and I don't know where it went, and I was told by a friend of mine who worked at Maple Leaf Gardens that this was the stick that he used to stop Wayne Gretzky on a penalty shot, although I think that's a dubious claim, but I did have, for a time, one of Bunny LaRock's sticks. Although I think that's a dubious claim, but I did have for a time,

one of Bunny LaRock's sticks. I was at that game. He was the one where he stopped Gretzky Were you at that game? Yeah. No way. Yeah. 7-1 on a Saturday night.

I had friends that worked at Maple Leaf Gardens and I had a Bunny LaRock stick. And I thought that was just about the coolest thing, the coolest thing in the world for little young adolescent Jeff. Brian from Burlington was recently doing some reading and found that the 1969 World Hockey Championships were the first international competition to allow body checking in all three sections of the ice. That world championship was in Stockholm. that was czechoslovakia versus the soviet union we've

talked about that before vicious it seems strange to me so i was wondering if you have any other strange rules that are no longer in the game i know early hockey rules said goalies couldn't make saves from their knees hence the saying the goalie stood on his head but do you have any others the goalie stood on This is right up your alley. I love this. So there's one thing that I want to remind everybody of, because it's kind of been lost to history. So one, for the goalie can stand on his head,

that comes from Clint Benedict, who in the early days of the NHL was playing with Ottawa and would always sort of lobby to be able to go down to make saves, to be able to sprawl, to go down to make a stop. And the NHL rulebook forbade it. Now, the president of the NHL at that point was a guy by the name of Frank J. Calder. And Calder was staunchly against this.

And Benedict would sort of cheat his way into kind of going down, but also standing up at the same time to make saves. And I guess a number of people wanted goaltenders to be able to go down to make saves. And so Frank Calder's great line was, fine, they can go down to make saves if they want. Heck, if they want,

they can stand on their head for all I care. And that's where the saying, the goalie stood on his head, comes from. That's been with the game since pretty much the very first puck drop in the NHL. But there's a couple of rules. One, there's the Montreal Canadiens power play rule. Now, once upon a time, two-minute penalties were majors. In that, you serve the full two minutes. You had a full two minute power play. And it was the Montreal Canadiens power play with like Doug Harvey and Rocket and Beliveau and Burt Olmsted. They would go on the power play. They would score three goals and essentially the game was over. So they got rid of that. So the minute

you scored, as soon as you scored a goal, the penalty was over. And that's always been called the Montreal Canadiens rule. Do you remember the Edmonton Oilers rule? This has been lost to history. Yeah. So the Oilers, so this would have been up

into some point in the 80s. I want to say like 85. You know who led the charge to get that changed and got the votes? Let me explain what it is first. So the Oilers rule was this. Up until the mid-'80s, if you had offsetting minor penalties, you didn't play five on five.

You played four on four. And the Oilers, with all that open ice, would just dominate teams to the point where you catch Glenn Sather on a candid day, on a candid moment, he'll tell you, yeah, like our team tried to draw other teams into offsetting penalties. Like there was that one series against the Philadelphia Flyers where there were like 24 offsetting minors. Like this was a deliberate tactic by the Oilers because they knew four on four, they would just dominate. And the league got a change. Glenn Saylor's saying after that was, oh, they can't beat the Oilers on the ice, so they have to beat us in the boardroom. But when you see five on five after offsetting minors, that's the Oilers rule. There's the Montreal Canadiens rule, which is the penalty is over when you score a goal. And there's the offsetting minors five on five that's the oilers rule who led the charge elliot first of all is anybody surprised that merrick would go on for

six minutes on this question like not me i just would have to say um just want to do a hockey history podcast just let me do a history pod cliff fletcher really of the calgary flames their biggest rival he got the votes. He said, guys, does anybody here want to win the Stanley Cup besides Edmonton? Then you got to take this out. And he got the votes. The one I would mention is Roger Nielsen. When he would pull his goalie, he'd tell the goalie to leave his stick on the ice.

And they said, there's no rule against it. Show me the rule. So eventually they changed the rule. Because it was brilliant. Puck along the ice. Maybe it hits the stick. Puts the stick into the goal post. Puck doesn't go into the net.

Great stuff. Smart. My favorite from Roger Nilsson was when he was coaching in Peterborough. And on penalty shots, he would pull the goaltender and put in a defenseman and that defenseman was ron stackhouse who later went on to play in the nhl most notably with the pittsburgh penguins and there was so the player would grab the puck at center ice stackhouse would skate out challenge the player the blue line poke the puck away and the penalty shot would be over there was was one year, I believe, where Stackhouse went seven for seven. And then that got changed.

And the NHL saw that and said, we better not let that happen here. Let's change our rule as well. There you go. Your thoughts at the Montana's Thought Line. 32 thoughts at sportsnet.ca. 1-833-311-3232. Montana's Barbecue and Bar, Canada's home for barbecue. We to wrap up the pod yeah first of all i wanted to say thanks to tim stutzley for the really fun piece uh with the

sneaker shopping you know we talk about and, we've talked a lot on this podcast, uh, Jeff about, uh, people stepping out and showing us different sides of their personalities. Cause the fans love it. Stutesley did it there. I hope he finds his lost shoes,

the ones that were stolen from his front door. I feel that I will really have contributed to society. If that occurs. Um, I would also like to say thank you to my friend who was very upset at my choice of shirts because he said it showed off my man boobs too much he said that was his only complaint with the piece was that he didn't like my shirt choice um anyway i hope people enjoyed it you know, Jeff, like you've known me since my career started 30 years ago.

And I was so stiff when I was young. I remember Nelson Millman telling me, lighten up. It's just sports. And I wouldn't have done that piece 30 years ago. So I think, you know, if you're going to tell people to lighten up and show themselves, you have to follow your own advice. More fashion pieces from elliot friedman that's what we're all logging for more because i'm i'm really known for my my fashion you know actually hang on hang on pause you are now elliot like you joke about it how you're

unfashionable you look at anyone on any of our any of the guys because the women have like their own like cool style yeah but essentially like we're all a bunch of like pink balloons and suits you're the only one that's really stepped outside to have his own style i i miss uh i miss the uh turtlenecks but you know what jeff it's just as i've gotten older i take myself a lot less seriously which is probably what should happen should have happened a long time ago um you know hockey night saturday night all of a sudden you know that oilers jets game which is our late game oh you know like i i did not like what i saw from edmonton and philadelphia and all

credit to the flyers you know he's got them playing hard. And, like, those young guys, Zamoula, the fabulous Zamoula, as Shorthouse called him, and Bobby Brink, you know, some of the— Tyson Forrester. They've brought a new energy, and that team's playing hard, and Atkinson and Couturier are healthy. Like, I don't know if this— I was going to say, who's the new guy? Couturier?

How do you pronounce it? Yeah. Haven't seen him around. What's his name again? I don't know if this is going to last, but they're playing hard. I did not like that from Edmonton. Edmonton just looked like the first two losses, they get the Nashville cureville cure in all seriousness the predators should hire

a driver to get dry saddle lost before the game like just take him somewhere but to me like when things went wrong for the others in that game on thursday night their body language was really bad and i don't think there's any reason for that this early in the season. Of all the losses they've had, this was the one that probably concerned me the most. And I think the other thing you're looking at, if you're Toronto, like some of their new players, Domi, Klingberg, they're finding it really hard to fit in. Like you can see they're having trouble figuring out where Domi should be.

And, you know, it's early. There figuring out where Domi should be. And, you know, it's early. There's a lot of games to play and I don't think there's room for panic, but you're probably looking at both those teams, Edmonton and Toronto and saying, there's some things here. We weren't expecting.

We're going to be problems early on. We'll see where this one heads. And finally want to make, I want to make mention of our friend, Daryl dauber um real quick from from dauber hockey he's in uh in another fight as he announced on social media that his cancer has returned uh the entire hockey world is in your corner and fighting along with you uh you got this daryl we're all right there with you pal thinking of you and your family 100 thanks for

listening to 32 Thoughts, the podcast.