32 Thoughts: The Podcast - Early Season Panic

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

A pair of Orginal Six teams are really struggling out of the gates. Jeff and Elliotte discuss why the Leafs (00:01) aren’t playing to their potential, if changes are needed in Chicago (23:00) and list off some coaching candidates that are currently on the market (27:00). They also talk about the Red Wings and their rookies (39:00), provide more news regarding Jack Eichel (42:00), the price for Vitali Kravtsov (47:00), interest in Barrett Hayton (48:00), Seattle’s home opener (50:00) and they take some of your questions (54:00). Music Outro: Marlin’s Dreaming – Showman You can find their full discography along with their latest record “Hasten” here This podcast is produced and mixed by Amil Delic, and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman. Audio Credits: Double Coverage with The McCourty Twins Podcast, NBC Sports California, Pittsburgh Penguins Radio Network, Sportsnet and WXYT The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates

32 thoughts the podcast is brought to you by the first ever gmc at4 lineup elliot overreact that's what we do early in the season today's podcast is going to focus mainly on two teams, the Chicago Blackhawks, but up first, the Toronto Maple Leafs. We could talk about Edmonton. We could talk about Florida. We could talk about San Jose. But what's the fun in talking about teams that are actually doing well? Yeah, let's just talk about teams that have gone careening over the cliff, it seems.

We'll start with Toronto. Tough week for Toronto. We'll see what happens this week coming up. Last week, it was three games and three losses. Overtime loss against the Rangers. Shot, score, Panarin! From the right circle, off the faceoff. Rangers win, 2-1.

5-3 loss against the San Jose Sharks. Kachur joining us live in toronto and logan outside of the cocoon of your dressing room in the organization there's not a lot of people in the hockey world that think you're going to contend this year here you are four and oh and you beat a team that a lot of people think are a stanley cup contender uh and i know it's early in the year it's only four games but uh you have to be proud of what you guys have accomplished so far. Yeah, man. I haven't had fun like this in a long time.

So it's a lot of fun with this group. We've got a lot of guys that are trying to earn the opportunity to play in the NHL. And they're great people, first and foremost. And the new guys we brought in are also great people. I think that dressing room is as good as it's been in a long time. So we want to play for each other. We want to win for each other. And it shows on the ice.

And then Saturday night, a 7-1 drubbing against the Pittsburgh Penguins, who didn't have you-know-who in the lineup. That story is well told. Ahead of Monday's game against the Carolina Hurricanes, from as best you can ascertain, where are the Maple Leafs at? Well, this is going to be a big one tonight too because you know that Freddie Anderson is going to have $11 billion on the board.

Yes. The way it ended between him and the Maple Leafs last year with him on the bench when they hoped that he would be the guy that would lead them in the playoffs you know that Rod Brindamore is going to have the Hurricanes riled up to play that game for Freddie Anderson whether it's before the pregame skate or before puck drop he's going to be going in front of every player's face and saying do you know how much it means to that guy tonight and pointing at Anderson?

Do you think Carolina has a website ready if they win? I would say it's quite possible, yes. Okay. You know, they're going to be riled up to play this game. Like, the thing is, is that we should have seen it on Saturday night. We were focusing on Pittsburgh having 32 million uh missing from their roster and I was kind of kicking myself Pittsburgh had three days off between their game against Dallas where they lost in a shootout and the game against Toronto and I was thinking about their opener and

the post-game interview that Brian Boyle did with Emily Kaplan where he said that we had a game plan for this and our coach had us ready to go and I think we should have seen knowing the commitment that Pittsburgh has to playing the way they play that Sullivan was going to have that team prepared for Toronto I just don't think we saw that and that's the difference between the two teams right now, to be perfectly honest, is that Mike Sullivan has such a firm grasp of his group right now that he can walk in there with three days off and say, we don't have 87, we don't have 71, we don't have Carter, we don't have Letang, we don't have Rust, but here's how we're going to win. And every single player on that roster is going to say, I believe it because the proof is in what

they've done if mike sullivan says this is the way we're going to win they're going to believe it and for whatever reason right now toronto doesn't have that same buy-in with their coach and the moment that game got away from them there was nobody who was going to be able to stop that train on saturday night from going right off the tracks. You know, it may be just too simple to look at an old hockey cliche or a sports cliche that will defeat skill. Um, but that was a case on Saturday, the Pittsburgh penguins just flat out, outworking the Toronto Maple Leafs, every puck battle, every race, uh, all of it, all those things that you always say, well, these are the things that the coaches like. This is what the coaches want.

The Penguins did all of that. The Maple Leafs did none of it. I wonder how much of that is a reflection of the players not feeling perhaps like the coach has their back coming off comments that Sheldon Keefe made after the San Jose loss. I think there's a bigger question here. Okay, so let's do the whole coaching situation first, okay?

Yep. The more I've thought about it, the more I've wondered if the Amazon situation really hurt Toronto. In what sense? Well, you know, here's the way I kind of see it. So there's a podcast out right now, and it's called Double Coverage. And it's Devin and Jason McCourty, who used to play for the Patriots. And they had Martellus Bennett, a former teammate of theirs,

on the podcast this week. And on it, Bennett lambased Jimmy Garoppolo. Like, he just destroys him and then enjoying it with the guys you're doing it was all I'm with you 100% I mean we won the first year there we won the Super Bowl like it doesn't get any better than that bro we lost two games one of them was because Jimmy Garoppolo was being a and then and trying to quit he quit before us on the last decided not to play right before the game so we went out there jacob jacobi came out and played with a thumb and gave his played his heart out but jimmy was just being a about it all and he's still being like that's why he you can't win

with a quarterback first of all so like that was the whole thing with him he didn't want to come out and like do anything because his agent was trying to protect his body or some shit like that which i can't fault him for that but like should have made that decision on thursday now on sunday you know what i'm saying and it's the kind of stuff that if it was said in a dressing room you wouldn't want it out there and it's like hard knocks they have stuff that's said in the dressing room and they put it out there and i I look at this whole Amazon thing, and the more I'm thinking about it, like we talked about what Craig Simpson said.

Yeah. About the Marner meeting before game seven, and he talked about, for those of you who didn't hear it when we talked about it, he said that in 2006, just before game seven between Edmonton and Carolina for the Stanley Cup, he had a player that told him he had no confidence. And Simmer went to find every piece of tape he could find of that player doing great things to build him up for that game. And he couldn't even imagine the idea of that appearing on camera anywhere.

couldn't even imagine the idea of that appearing on camera anywhere and for all the things we're talking about hockey having to accept the fact that we're all much more in the limelight right now and it's like secrets are going away in the social media world you look at you know what's happening at facebook there are few secrets anymore everything Everything is going out there. And I think in places like football, there's a bit more understanding of that. And in basketball, you know, this Ben Simmons stuff is playing out in public. And I think people are just like, you know, that's the NBA. It's very dramatic. And I still think hockey as a sport has a much tougher time coming to grips with this stuff. And like, for example, there's a team in the NFL on hard knocks every year.

And in hockey, the Leafs are in Amazon. But I don't know that you would be able to find, you know, 10 straight years of teams that would be willing to do it. And we can all have this argument about whether or not it's right or it's wrong. I'm not debating that right now. What I'm debating is, I think that the kinds of things that come out in that affect a hockey team more than other sports. Now, anyone listening to this podcast can tell me if they think I'm wrong, they could say I'm full of it. They can say that's an awful take. Fine that's my take and that's my opinion i have wondered ever since then if just the fact that some of that stuff there's a hangover for it the marner meeting

before game seven i'm looking at him now okay and je, you tell me if you think I'm wrong. The most basic, simple plays, he can't make them right now. He looks like he right now is as frozen as the rest of the team was in those final games against the Montreal Canadiens. I think they worked really hard this summer to say to him, stop listening to things. I think they tried everything they this summer to say to him, stop listening to things. I think they tried everything they could do to try to insulate him from everything that's going,

that goes on. And I think everybody knows that rightly or wrongly, the fans have targeted him and he's the guy like every team has for Toronto. It was Brian McCabe for a long time. Well, it was always defensemen. Yeah. That's the one thing about Toronto, they would always find a defenseman. It was Larry Murphy.

It was Brian McCabe. Oh, keep going. It was Ackie Berg. It was Corey Cross. Keep going. The list just goes on and on and on. Yeah, that's fair. I couldn't remember a whole bunch of names.

It was Jake Gardner got a lot of that. Jake Gardner, yeah. And some of that obviously was because, unfortunately, Gardner had some really rough Game 7 moments. But Marner is that guy right now, and he can't get out of it. And I really do wonder, I keep thinking about what Craig said about that ending up in the public realm. And you're sitting there and you're thinking, okay, the fans are all over

me and this kind of gets put out there like i haven't stopped thinking since this season started and i've seen marner really struggling because he can't make plays that he can make in his sleep jeff i'm just wondering if this is all part of it you think it's a confidence thing for marner like the same skilled player is still there i always remembered remember when the canadians did their own one and yeah they had that one meeting where suban got embarrassed yeah only suban can answer this but i remember ron looking at that and saying oh that's that's not good and maybe it's a hockey thing i just think that the sanctity of the dressing room and hockey of all the sports i've ever covered and i've been fortunate enough to cover a lot of them i think the the sanctity of the dressing room and hockey has always been considered greater than

the other team sports in baseball like reporters are all around the clubhouse. The NBA, and the reason people love it is it's a total free-for-all. I haven't done as much football, but I could see that being close to hockey. I know people who didn't like what happened to Vesey. Now, that was on the ice. It wasn't in the room. But it was still a conversation that was supposed to be a very hard conversation between coach and player and i'm looking at this and i can't help but think that

this sport still has trouble like you remember the great road to the winter classics boudreaux well the first one was the best one. That was the one that gathered everyone's attention. But it damaged Boudreaux, right? Absolutely, it did. And the Philly one, I thought, really damaged Brzgalov. A lot of people thought it was funny. And I know because people told me this, they felt it hurt his credibility inside the organization.

As much as I love this stuff, I still think the sport isn't able to deal with it. Here's what I think about it. I think that the genie is out of the bottle for this stuff, that we're going to get more like this. This is what the audience wants now. This is at some level what the audience expects now. The next generation of fans to your

previous point expects a sports universe well no they expect the universe to be secret free yeah they want access to all of it they want to know what goes on behind that door behind that curtain behind everything like i hear that montreal wants to do the next one of these things everything. Like I hear that Montreal wants to do the next one of these things, right? There'll be other teams that will want to do it. I do wonder at the same time, if teams might have cause for pause considering what's happened to the Maple Leafs early on this season after this thing has come out. But I think this is honestly, Fridge, I think this is a growing pain that, and I'm with

you, like that sanctity of the of the dressing room has always been a big deal in hockey but i think those walls are coming down it's made people feel uncomfortable in the game it's made players it's made coaches it's made general managers team presidents whatever uncomfortable but we're headed that way anyway like you can't get the toothpaste back in the team yeah but you know the thing is i'm not arguing with you on this jeff i'm talking purely about the consequences now oh i don't think that there's any doubt that's all i'm saying i don't think i agree with you the genie is out of the bottle and everyone's gonna have to put up with this like what do we know that nylander him and his agents fought to have something taken out yeah they took the hyman stuff out because he

left right yeah and i do believe that was over no move clause that that's took the hyman stuff out because he left right yeah and i do believe that was over no move clause that that's the reason hyman's not in toronto anymore um that the maple leaves weren't willing to do it so all of a sudden it becomes even more focused on the head coach right so we've got to put more stuff in and he's the guy that's not standing in the way of stuff that you know can be out here and i'm just talking about in the here and now i look at what's happening early in the season and i can't help but wonder if that series and what came out of it there's a hangover on the team i don't disagree with that i don't think that you put something out there in the sports space and that won't have any effects with the team.

I think that's got to be an obvious one. Like when you do this, like if you're Brendan Shanahan or Kyle Dubas, I think we folly to think that this won't affect your team in some way. I think you go into this knowing that there is going to be some effect. You just cross your fingers and hope that it's not going to be detrimental to your squad so far if we want to draw this relationship between the amazon piece and the maple leaf start so far it's been horrible for the toronto maple leaves now i could just be reaching for reasons i think there's i think there's a lot of things i think maple leaf players have gone have now muzzins hurting muzzins hurting uh hall has not played he had he's he's struggled this season matthews was out for a week yeah but to me the the biggest early season

concern is marner and is this just a slump like to me a slump is when you know maybe you have one or two bad games or you're doing a lot of the things you normally do right but it's just not going i was looking at some of marner's shots like he's not getting close to the net and two marner he's so good he's like i don't care what anybody says he's a phenomenal player and if everything is even he should 100 100% be on the Canadian Olympic team. Like plays that he can make, which are more comfortable to him than 99% of the world, he can't make them right now.

And to me, that's the biggest thing. Is it going to snap out of it and it's just something going wrong? Or is there a really serious big problem here? I look at tonight's game, if you're listening to this on Monday at tonight's game if you're listening to this on monday at some point if you're listening on tuesday questions have been answered but if you listen to this on monday i think this carolina game is going to tell you a lot about how this team feels maybe how this team feels about its coach, maybe how good this team is, how much this team cares. If you don't have an effort against Carolina on Monday,

after getting skated into the ground by that version of the Pittsburgh Penguins on Saturday night, on hockey night in Canada, where all the eyeballs are on you then i think if you're kyle dubas brendan shanahan you got to look at this and say okay we got a real problem here i think the motivational speech is if we lose this game there might be a nasty tweet against us from carolina yeah no you know i i kid but when things are going really badly for a team you get crazy text messages and calls right of course so our game crew had a great pack late in the game that went from dubas to keith to just the looks of disbelief on the bench

and the fans right the Toronto fans who made the trip to Pittsburgh because that always happens and you know someone said to me Dubas looks like he's watching the game by himself like who's watching the games with Dubas and I don't think that was true I don't think he was alone but then people start asking questions like how often does dupas watch the game with shanahan like one gm said to me that one of the things that he really appreciated was there was a time when he was really struggling and the president of the team came and sat next to him at a game and he's like what are you doing here goes, I must be really in trouble if you're showing up. And he said, no, no, no, no.

I just think it's like you're not in any trouble, he said to him. But I think it's really important that people see us together. And I remember a couple of years ago, I had a conversation with a coach who said that his GM used to come down at the end of every game and just talk to him for a couple of minutes. I think that's pretty normal, but he knew he was in trouble when the GM stopped coming down after games. And he actually said that he told the GM when he was fired, I didn't appreciate you doing that. That's the only thing about this that bothers me was that I felt you abandoned me. So like people in the game,, they look at this kind of thing

and they think about this kind of thing. And so, for example, when they don't see Shanahan and Dubas at games a lot, oh, they start to say, well, this is what's going on here. And who knows? Shanahan might be superstitious and he watches every game from a different place. But people look for that kind of thing. And it might mean nothing,

but that's the way people start to think when these kinds of things go on. So there's all kinds, you see this played out on Twitter and you get all the texts and I get all the texts and everybody gets a text and we hear the conversations and Sports Talk Radio on Monday

is going to be fueled by a conversation of who takes the blame here yeah who needs to be on the hook and for every time i hear the discussion about kyle dubas i always ask one question elliot and everybody has a different number i wonder what yours is okay How many coaches should a general manager have before you make a decision on that coach? I don't know if I buy that as the answer because there's guys in this league who get two coaches and there's GMs in this league who've had five, right? That's what I'm saying is generally-

To me, that's not a reason to make a change. Oh, well, they've only had two coaches, don't have enough. I don saying is generally. To me, that's not a reason to make a change. Oh, well, they've only had two coaches. Don't have enough. I don't like that. You don't like that at all? No, I don't. Even though general managers in this industry get more than one coach. No, I don't.

Dubas has had one. Well, the thing is, too, is that Dubas extended Keefe this year. He did. So you could make an argument that that means he's got another hire because he could have let him go right he chose to extend them every time you extend a coach that counts as another coach well i think it shows that you believe you're endorsing that person right yeah but again i think this argument is it's like like i'm not but that's the conversation yeah it and and it and it plays

itself out and we keep having the same conversation online specifically about all the contracts and what they should have done and who should be here and who shouldn't and who's the real problem and which contract is the albatross and it's the whole thing is tired but the question that i wonder about now is as we look at this this season where we believe there will be major consequences unless something different happens are we at the point now where decisions have to be made to me like your previous theory about the coaches that was terrible no that's a good take that's a good take that was not worth the mensa society no that was that was a good take this is much more worth the mensa society this is a better take you got rid of the first terrible take now you've got the good take see this is the way i look at it jeff i really thought like you that they had the year to sort

this out and now i'm not sure i don't think it's happening yet but i i think there's a chance that if this doesn't work soon then they go out there and they say we have to make some decisions that maybe we didn't want to make so quickly or we have to look at things a lot quicker than we initially planned to. And this ties into Chicago too. So Chicago lost again on Sunday night and they announced that their sellout streak is over. Toronto, the ticket sales have been soft or at least softer than they're used to.

Now, the thing about Toronto is even though they gave fans an opportunity to opt out for this year they still charged a lot of money for those who stayed in and I think there's a lot of factors I think you know people who have unvaccinated kids for example I do think there's a malaise around the team that the way they lost last year really hurt them in the community I don't think there's any doubt about that. I also wonder if people are just like, you know what?

I got used to not going to games. I'm not really in a mood to go back. I think all of this is possible, and I don't want to discount any reason over another. But what it makes me wonder, Jeff, is our team's going to sit here and say, for financial reasons to sell tickets we can't be as patient hmm like and I think about this even more in Chicago than they do in Toronto are people looking at this and saying if we don't do something what are our buildings gonna look like and I don't know the answer to that, but I know it would be a factor.

Well, we've talked a lot about Chicago this season. And now you mentioned they lose again. They lose to the Detroit Red Wings. Short side wide to the goal. Rebound out to center. And this game is over. Mark Stahl picks up the puck, and I would imagine he's going to give that to Lucas Raymond, who had the three-goal hat trick for the Red Wings,

leading the way offensively. Great effort by Detroit. It's now another game, and Mark Lazarus tweeted this out. There are six games in. 360 minutes and 57 seconds without holding a lead they haven't led this year yeah i don't even know what to say about that like that sounds near impossible that's an nhl record i believe i was watching the uh droid call ken daniels and mickey redmond and they referenced it halfway through the

game that six games is an nhl record i don't know what to do with that like that sounds like near impossible to pull off you know jeff what do we say about the blackhawks at our beginning of the season preview podcast no idea what they would be no idea no idea what i but i didn't expect this no leads in the first six games not a chance not a chance did I expect this. I didn't think they were a Stanley Cup contender, but I didn't think this. So that's where we are here, Jeff.

Like I'm looking at this and I'm saying, like to me, there's no way that the Blackhawks want to make changes. When, you know, we said this on Friday, when they're telling people that they want to ride it out, I believe they want to ride it out i believe they want to ride it out but this is something we also said on friday remember brian burke saying when the fire ron wilson chance came up that's when he decided he had to make the move and now there's fire

cullin chance coming out like in chicago right now i look at this as it's not about what the team or the organization wants to do but i think it's what the fans could force them into doing and you know the the other thing i kind of wonder here is so colleton got an extension that goes through this year and next. And I think he's, my guess is, this is a guess, I guess he's around one and a half a year. Stan Bowman, we reported, I think it was at the 2019 draft that he had an extension. And the Blackhawks confirmed it a year later.

And I don't know how many more years it's got on it, but I think it has something. So now you're coming out of a pandemic. Your attendance is soft. How much money do you want to eat? If you go out and you're looking at Mike Babcock or Claude Julien or John Tortorella, it's going to cost you. Unless those guys are willing to take a lot less than they're used to getting,

that's a big ticket. I'm not convinced Chicago's going to want to do that. The obvious one is you could just say, okay, Mark Crawford takes over, although he's in COVID protocol right now. I mean, that's my big thing right now, Jeff, is what do these teams want to do? Are they worried more about attendance or are they looking at there and saying, say for argument's sake, to clean everybody out, they have to eat, let's say $5 million.

What means more to these teams right now? I think they're looking more so at fan apathy and what that's going to mean to their bottom line, not this season, but in subsequent seasons. Getting people back. Like I always wonder about what message are you sending the marketplace? Because if you don't do anything and the dreadful season continues,

what's your message? Your message is we're fine with this. Or you can say we'll deal with this in the off-season. There needs to be some indication. That's why in-terms keep popping up. Yeah. Right? We need to do something.

We recognize the problem or we recognize the issue. We're going to address this properly in the off-season with a search. But right now, our message to the marketplace is this needs to change. We know it needs to change. You know it needs to change. Stick with us. We're going to make this change properly.

I mean, what did we just talk about the last podcast? The worst thing in sports isn't fans not buying tickets. It's buying tickets but not going. You made that point. It was a good point. That's death. You know, Rick Talkett's sitting in the TNT studio. Yeah, let's discuss potentials here.

Okay. Rick Talkett. I mean, the ones that are out there, whether it's your Claude Julien, your Mike Babcock, that you already mentioned, John Tortorella. I've heard some of the biggest questions

about some of those names is what those guys are used to making. How many teams are going to want to do that now i don't know many for each i haven't asked any one of them i was just talking about this with someone like those names tortorella julian babcock they're used to making a certain number what if teams say no are they willing to say okay i'll do it for much less like someone compared it to like an actor working for union scale right and we were kind of laughing about it but like just the idea but like i don't know i'm just putting the information that was out there you know talk it is an interesting one he's in the studio he's visible he had a chance to become the highest paid assistant coach in the league this year and work for Toronto.

And ultimately he decided not to do it. And so we'll see what appeals to him. You know, Ottawa has, you know, two guys who used to be head coaches, Dave Capuano and Davis Payne. They didn't want Capuano to interview last year. So I don't know that Ottawa was letting anyone go in season i don't think anyone's letting anyone go in season well i'm going to give you another name okay okay someone brought this up to me today and the question is like how does everybody feel about this and that's jim mont Montgomery. Montgomery's on the bench right now with the St. Louis blues.

Yes, he is. There's some speculation. I've had people talk to me and have said, that's the next head coach of the St. Louis blues. I don't know that. I'm just saying that,

you know, Jim Montgomery is someone who's worked hard to, you know, put his life back together. I've spoken to him about it before. You know, someone was just saying to me today, that's the kind of guy who probably doesn't cost you a ton of money

and he's a good coach. But the most important thing is though is that, you know, he's in a good place. That's what I care about the most. Absolutely. The one thing that I think that we forget about Jim Montgomery because of all the personal issues that he's had to face and work through, that's a heck of a coach.

There were teams, before Dallas got him, there were other teams. I believe the Rangers were one of them. Yeah, he interviewed in a few places. That were looking seriously at Jim Montgomery before they went with David Quinn. Outside of, and again, to your point, personal situation, the family situation is more important than being behind the bench of an NHL team. But let's not sleep on how good of a coach this guy is. Yeah.

Like ask anyone, he'll coach in the NHL again. I just can't see St. Louis letting him go in season. We're talking out of our butts here. I don't want anyone St. Louis letting him go in season. We're talking over our butts here. I don't want anyone to run with this and say that we're saying that these guys are going to be coaching candidates in Chicago. We're just, the bigger thing I'm talking about here is that the economics of the whole situation is, you know, Collin got extended for two years. He, I believe he's somewhere in the million and a half range. How is Chicago going to feel about not paying that while ticket sales are soft? I don't know.

Those are all the questions I have. I think these are all things that are going to be discussed here. Obviously, we're still waiting for the results of the investigation. That still hangs over this too. I wonder if they go to someone like Ed Olchek, who's got a lot of cachet with the fans and say, we need you to come in here and help rebuild this. Like, I'm just wondering what Chicago does.

But they could do that now. Chicago could do that now in a position higher than Stan Bowman. Yes, they could if they wanted to. But again, now you're adding salaries, right? Like, I think the fans would be very happy with that and i think he'd be a good hire it just again like that's the question i have is just the money issue see here's the thing about being a blackhawks fan expectations were you know shot through the roof this summer with all the signings with all the new players that came in and the talk

that this rebuild is done and we're headed back to the playoffs. Sure. We play in a competitive division, but this isn't the rebuilding Hawks. This is the rebuilt Hawks. And we got the Vesna trophy winner in net. And we got, you know, Seth Jones on the backend and here's Jake McCabe. And they put in a lot of players and the expectation wasn't this at all.

So you've chummed the marketplace and raised expectations. Now, what do you do? You could have a start like this if you're selling rebuild and it's all hope, hope, hope, hope, hope. That wasn't what you were selling in the off season when all these guys were getting signed.

So I think that if you're the blackhawks organization for each don't you understand that this is going to be costly like your next move is going to cost a couple of dollars here because your marketplace is turning on you i mean i hate hearing coaches get booed i hate hearing i i get it but i just life's hard enough i don't like to see bad things happen to people. I'm with you on this. They know what's going on. They feel bad enough already.

And you understand that fans are upset, but the Blackhawks know this. They understand sometimes you have to eat a salary and maybe pay more to keep your customers happy and keep them coming back and keep selling them on hope or wins i think chicago understands that and i think toronto understands that like we're not talking about small market teams here like i know it's tough all around but these are high revenue teams i do think you walk

into a place where you have to do something inertia doesn't work. I think Chicago is probably there. The clock has started in Toronto much sooner than any of us expected. I think a lot of us thought this was a playoff clock this year. Okay, what happens in the playoffs? Now it's a regular season clock. I wonder how much of that contributes to it being a tough ticket to sell in toronto that the playoff failures have almost made the regular season meaningless i think there's that now now people are saying to me this is the worst that's ever been in toronto

i don't know if i agree with that i went through. I went through the 80s for each. I went through the 80s, man. I was at the game, the 8-0 playoff game to Detroit where jerseys got thrown on the ice. I was at that game. When Daniel Marowak playing his first or second game ever was their best player and the fans went crazy. I remember that night. But you know what everybody forgot?

Oh, wait, timeout out the islanders are in the intermission with vegas and gary lawless is on we must stop what we're doing okay back to the podcast now frege now that uh gary's finished talking about the players have won the stanley cup and the gold medal in the same season and he's put all 23 members of the golden knights roster on various olympic teams checking for birth certificates to see if like a great great grandfather qualifies someone for a country. I understand how angry were people were after the playoffs last year, but I also remember a few years ago when the team refused to salute the fans and what craziness that turned into.

And I have to say when they were throwing waffles on the ice at that time, that was the worst I ever saw in Toronto. Those fans hated that team, and that team hated those fans. I don't know if this is worse yet. It's not good, but that was the worst I ever saw. We haven't seen players lash out at fans yet. We haven't seen Mitch Marner fire back at fans. But he hears it. But he hasn't fired back so

i'm with you it hasn't been that bad and to the previous point you and me both went through what the 80s were for the toronto maple leafs and that wasn't just one night of one jersey hitting the ice like that happened more than once. Yeah, but the 80s, it might as well be before Christ for a lot of these people. But let's not forget too, like making it even worse, you know, at that point, the Maple Leafs played in a division where you made the playoffs

with 60 points and the Maple Leafs couldn't even get there. And four out of the five teams got in. That Norris division. It was bad for a lot of years okay let's win two rounds and have edmonton kick the crap out of us okay you know you're right i agree with that let me throw another name that was whispered to me over the weekend of potentials that's out there at what point does jim rutherford get back in the game i think the question is

what's the role gonna be he'll be back in for ruther I think the question is, what's the role going to be? He'll be back in. For Rutherford, I don't know if it's a general manager role or it's a team president role. And that's the other thing that's, I think, a factor here in this, Jeff. Like we talk about money. How many teams are going to want to do that now? Well, the two that we're talking about have money. Yeah.

That's the thing. Like, again, to the previous point these aren't but toronto's already got a president these aren't small market teams look i don't think toronto's there yet i think if this goes on for another little bit yeah i mean look out but i don't think toronto's there yet chicago i i really wonder i i really do i really wonder how much it can go on without something happening now that we finished talking about chicago i feel jeff you and i should mention detroit they got a couple of studs there one two and rookie scoring raymond insider uh how you like lucas raymond teenage hat trick steve eiserman territory in detroit eliot fire the shot he scores

lucas raymond with the hat trick steve eiserman territory in detroit elliott fire the shot he scores lucas raymond with the hat trick here come the hats from the red wing fans flurry got a piece of it it got in behind them uh mo cider we've talked about going back to the end of last season when it became obvious that he's going to come on over and join the detroit red wings on a full-time basis and he's mean he's me well you saw him hit like a truck last year right and the thing is like i'm not going to say that he's the next cronwall but man this guy hits hard and they love that in detroit and already you can make the argument that he's detroit's best defenseman remember when toronto first made that we talked a lot about toronto in the podcast but remember Remember when Toronto first made, we talked a lot about Toronto in the podcast,

but remember when Toronto first made the playoffs, that Washington series under this group of players? Yeah. And you thought, oh boy, they have a fun kind of swagger and they're going to be great to watch for years. Look at this Kapanen kid. Woo, what a trade. That's what I love.

When I see Sider and Raymond, it kind of reminds me of that like oh boy like these guys are going to be fun to watch together for a long time yeah and there's more players on the horizon yeah red wings there's still some pain but there's more players like what did we talk about last season that you know detroit unders it became obvious and you know we've seen you know they went out and got sebastian cosaosa, another huge net minder. That's one of the areas that they've targeted that is kind of dry in their pipeline. There's still going to be some years of pain here for the Detroit Red Wings.

Yeah, but you see it now, right? You see the cornerstones. You're starting to see it. They've shoveled out the barn and they're ready to show the horse. That's an old Brian Brooks saying, before you show the horse, you got to shovel out the barn. Now you're starting to see some of the horses coming out of the barn for the Detroit Red Wings. And good on them, man.

Those are two real good players. I think it'll be exciting for a long time. Okay, let's take a little pause on the podcast. When we come back, I want to revisit a couple of things you talked about Saturday on Hockey Night, namely the situation with Jack Eichel and also unvaccinated players around the NHL. That's next. 32 Thoughts, the podcast continues. Welcome back to the podcast.

In non-leaf and Blackhawk news around the nhl um elliot you reported on saturday we shouldn't be surprised that the jack eichel situation heads to a grievance any type of timeline here every it's funny at the beginning of every week i always say okay this is the week we're going to finally see some movement with eichel and then the week goes on and nothing happens you know i got one tweet this week enough with the eichel i love everything else about the podcast but please enough with the eichel and look i am sympathetic to this tweeter and this listener and i thank you for your listening it's just a new it's a story and that's it you know me i, I'm Captain Careful, right?

I think it'll be sooner than two weeks. I just left it there to be safe. I think that there is an understanding here and we've talked about this. He has to get a procedure done. And I do think that if we don't get it sorted out very soon, the grievance is coming. And their case will be that there are doctors who say this is a legitimate plan

and the CBA was never written to say this provokes you from a legitimate plan. The CBA was never designed to disallow players to have medically respected surgeries. That'll be an interesting one. Listen, nobody wants it to get there. I don't think the NHL wants it to get there. Certainly the player listen nobody wants it to get there i don't think the nhl wants it to get there certainly the the player doesn't want it to get there looks like we're

getting there with vaccinated players with only one remaining elliot what's happening mckenzie blackwood new jersey plays its first game in uh winnipeg and that's their first game in canada on december 3rd i'm told that he he is on track to being eligible to play in that game, which means he's begun the process. He's going to get vaccinated. I was told that on active rosters, there's now only one NHL player who does not vaccinate, and we know who that is.

It's Tyler Bertuzzi. And we were doing the segment the other night. Tyler Bertuzzi. And we were doing the segment the other night. I was a very mixed emotions about even identifying Tyler Bertuzzi because like, I didn't say his name, the font had it. And it's not like you can not pay any attention to it because it's a game on

our air and he's not playing. Right. Yeah. But the thing I generally feel is that if you're going to try to humiliate somebody over a stance, it's not going to help the situation, right? And I know that the league and the players have felt that educating players on how safe it is and why it's okay to do it,

that's kind of been their strategy, and I think it's worked in a lot of places. I think also the peer pressure, as we've talked about, of leaving your team without you. Like Bertuzzi's playing great. He's got nine points, and he had another big night as they won on Sunday, and without him on Saturday, they got blown out by the winless Canadians. If there isn't any better peer pressure, I don't know what it is.

I had very mixed emotions about it because I don't think humiliating a person or coming across like you're trying to humiliate a person works. I really don't. No, they'll get their back up more. Yes. It'll cement their beliefs because people always gravitate towards where they are accepted and where they are loved and where they are appreciated. And if you provide, and if you demonstrate an environment where none of that is happening,

good luck ever getting them to come over to that side. Yeah. People gravitate to love. It's a truism of all time. Generally, Jeff, I agree with that. But he is the one unvaccinated player in the NHL right now. And one of the things that's led to is they have a meeting about the protocols, the league

and the players association november 1st and there have been some false positives and there are people who believe we don't need to test asymptomatic players you know who are vaccinated and there are a number of people who felt that who feel that way you know frank cerebelli wrote about it this week the day before friday and I was like a little bit annoyed because I was working on the story. You know, the one thing I was told is that, and I heard it from some of the doctors, they're really against backing away on the protocols.

They said, look, like there's going to be many outbreaks. We've seen a couple of them already. The last thing the league wants to do is cancel games you know the best way to prevent games from getting canceled is testing the way they're testing which is three times a week now the nfl only tests once a week and the nba doesn't test vaccinated players um but the doctors are like no like if you want to protect the integrity of your season that's it and if you want to protect the integrity of your season, that's it. And if you want to go to the Olympics, this is what you have to do.

And then one of the doctors was laughing with me. He says, well, the NHL hates the Olympics. They probably don't want them to test anymore. So he was laughing about that. But that's kind of where we are right now. So I don't expect the protocols to change. Yeah, I don't expect it to change either. I think there are probably some within the NHL that would like them to.

I just can't see it. I think the NHL Players Association will be full on board with, let's continue the testing as it is. We understand the frustration from some players with false positives and missing games and being out of the lineup, et cetera. But still, if it's going to keep the season as it is and the schedule as it is and will still allow players to go to the Olympics,

listen, nothing's perfect in the world right now. I think this is one the players just have to eat. Yes. There are a couple of things you brought up. You brought up Price on Kravtsov. Price on Kravtsov is a top prospect. Snooped around last week for Saturday trying to figure out what Chris Drury. Well, one of the things we talked about is, you know,

what is his management style? And we know that he digs in his heels, and he has on various American Hockey League players, and we ran down a list of some of those guys. But it sounds very much like he's looking for a top prospect, and he's not budging from that right now. And considering how well the Rangers are playing right now, thank you very much, Elliot. I don't see any reason for him to change.

Although as of right now, obviously, he's not getting what he wants. And Hayton. Barrett Hayton was a name that came up. You got the runaround on this one. You heard one thing and you were spun into something else. Yeah. So I had heard a couple of things. to something else yeah so i had heard a couple of things uh i had heard originally that from a couple of different teams that his name was out there and one of the things i had heard was that

he had requested a trade so checked with his agent no he hasn't requested a trade although his name has been brought up a number of times specifically in the past couple of weeks like he didn't make the Arizona Coyotes out of camp there were some injury issues there at camp starting the season in AHL Tucson and we all know the Barrett Hayton story fifth overall draft pick 2018 was a captain of Team Canada the World Juniors in in 2020 skilled player it just hasn't been able to click his development and I've been on record from this from day one I think the way the Arizona Coyotes handled him was all wrong I thought they shouldn't have rushed him should have gone back to play junior hockey sure let him have the the world junior hockey championship experience but don't rush him into the NHL Barrett Hayden isn't the

first one the Coyotes have rushed in and then had misgivings about. And I think this new regime with Arizona realizes that this player was rushed and his development was probably hurt because of it. And they want to be sensitive about it. But his name is out there. But as of right now, I'm told by someone in Arizona, they are not initiating the conversation about Barrett Hayton.

Other teams are thinking, perhaps, that the Arizona Coyotes have given up on this player. He wasn't drafted by this regime. He wasn't drafted by this management group. Maybe he can steal a player. Not so. They like him there, I'm told. And the one person who really likes him,

and I just referenced the world junior hockey championships is Andre Tournier, who named him captain at that world junior hockey championships for team Canada. So he's got Tournier on his side, Tournier likes him. The organization is still interested in developing him and getting him into the NHL on a full-time basis,

but he has been part of conversations so far. Curious about your thoughts on the late game on Saturday, the Seattle Kraken and the Vancouver Canucks, specifically the debut of the Climate Pledge Arena, the carbon neutral rink. First of all, Thatcher Demko, 20 years for grand larceny.

Yeah, no kidding. He was fantastic. He was excellent. Second of all, I'm still annoyed we weren't there, to be honest. As I was watching that game, I was doing a slow burn. I want to be there. We should be here.

Thirdly, I thought they put on a great show. I know people made fun of their banner, the 32 thing, but it's a very Seattle thing. In 1984, they did it for the Seahawks, the 12th man, right? Some things fit in the market, and I think that fits in the market. But people told me the arena is spectacular. The crowd was really into it. A Nirvana goal song absolutely fits.

You know what? I'm really curious to see what they're going to do on Tuesday night. Cause I think you really hit on something and I agree with you, Jeff. I think a Stanley cup banner is going up for 1917. I really do think they're going to do it. Yeah. I think they should like it as much as I was making this point with you and Ron on the, on the desk on Saturday, as much as this is a forward thinking organization, I was talking

to Jason Botterill about this on the Jeff Merrick radio show, starring Jeff Merrick on Friday, about this organization not only realizing but also respecting the deep history of hockey in Seattle, which goes back to the Pacific Coast League. I mean, that 1917 team had one of, for my money, the greatest thinkers of the game that the game has ever seen in Lester Patrick. Like there is a rich history of hockey in Seattle. And I know that as much as they, this is a look forward team. I know they respect that and want to do things with their history.

And they're big on being the first, right? Hey, first, first you know carbon neutral arena you know anything about seattle they're going to rush to be the first to do a lot of things and the first expansion team to raise the stanley cup banner just kind of fits what they want to do doesn't it oh yeah and i mean you and i talked about this on Saturday. Do they go as far as, you know, have the Stanley Cup in the house and that game? You know, this is the first time, you know, Seattle and Montreal have played since 1919. Is this game going to settle the 1919 Stanley Cup? You should go with that, Jeff.

You should declare the winner 1919 Stanley Cup champions champions do a cup presentation at the end of the game it's goofy things your brain gets to in in hockey history your brain gets to don't say anyone else's only one that's not about this one no please no you're the only person who thinks that the winner of that game should get the 1919 Stanley Cup. One thing I want to mention, the volume in that building when Vince Dunn scored that goal. Vince Dunn shoots, scores! That was like a pro wrestling pop. Like when Jericho first showed up on Raw in Chicago, like the place comes unglued

that was like that that was a great sound that was such a fantastic sound that's one of the things i'll take away from that one okay let's get in a couple of questions here uh do do do do do do do here we go so i got i got one for you because i got the answer this is an easy one yeah uh this is from brayden in the vancSeattle game, which we're just referencing, Yanni Gord was not having it with JT Miller's face-off style. Yeah, he was really going on at Miller for how he was conducting himself with the dot. Thoughts on this one?

Yes. If you watch JT Miller at that face-off on his forehand, he wouldn't set his feet and he kept spinning. I mean, it's not so subtle. Like you're trying to win a draw, but that's what was driving Gord crazy was him not getting set and then spinning in anticipation of the drop. So that's an easy one to knock down. And thank you for the question.

Anthony in Columbia, Missouri. This one's for you, Frej, although we may get a discussion out of this one. As a Blues fan, I'd like to see Tarasenko stay in St. Louis. Man, right now he's looking good. And if I were trying to repair the relationship, I would elevate him to be co-captain with Ryan O'Reilly.

Has an NHL team ever done that and would it work for the Blues? I was told by someone there, first of all, that he was a little bit miffed he didn't get the captaincy to begin with. That's true. That's been admitted. Okay, here's the other part. Has an NHL team ever done that and would it work for the Blues?

Didn't Vancouver do this with giving the seat to Luongo when they wanted to extend him? Do I have my timeline right there? I'm not sure. it was right around the time where an extension was coming up for luongo and it was a demonstration that he's their guy and nhl said no no no you can't do that that's not bad your your timeline is right he got the captaincy 2008 and he signs extension in 2009 still got a fridge like the thing is i don't even think you consider doing that in a place like st louis unless you know for sure that tarasenko's like no more trade demand i'm happy to

be here like that's the only way you even consider it you know right now they're winning they're off to a great start the team looks rejuvenated that can cure all ills so maybe that does happen but i don't think you can do that if you're the blues unless you know he's committed long term co-captains we have seen them before when the calgary flames won the stanley cup in 89 they had tri captains tim hunter lanny mcdonald and jim poplinski and what was the one you guys found recently it was carolina right jordan stall and justin falk so it happens i guess periodically and i could think of one stanley cup team where i found it but i don't think you're doing that with tarasenko unless you know for sure that it's like okay i

felt this way last year i don't feel that way anymore listen thanks so much for the emails uh we'll answer more in subsequent editions here of 32 Thoughts, the podcast. Thanks so much for sending them in, 32thoughts at sportsnet.ca. There's a lot, and keep them coming. Love reading them. Love answering them as well. Yes, thanks a lot. Yes, we are going to do.

I've had a couple of tweets about this recently. When are you going to do another Word Association podcast? That's got to come eventually, right, Fridge? There's a couple interview pods I want to set up, but I'm not doing the next two Wednesdays. So maybe it's time. Okay. Okay, you know what?

We're committing to it. Send your word associations into the email address, not this week, but next week. Okay. So you've got a week to get your word associations in okay so here's how this game is played just so everyone knows send in i don't know how many was it eight nine six six send in six hockey so that way we can do more of them yeah if we do 10 we're gonna we're not gonna we're gonna do two of them. It'll be that long. Send in six hockey names. Yeah.

Okay? It doesn't have to be players. Just six hockey names that all have a theme attached to them. The deal is I ask Elliot for stories on all of these people or things, maybe even events. And he's got to figure out what the theme is. Not only provide a story, but try to loop it all together and this is where yellow laces came from because one of the themes was all the players use yellow laces and that's where that came from yellow laces is my wire hangers this is why you

hear this reference every now and then on the podcast for those now wait a second hold on though merrick that we're making a deal right here, okay? What's up? You can't look at the emails. This is the way it's going to work. Amal, you're going to host that podcast. Only you can look at the emails. Okay.

And if I can't get them, Merrick can try. Okay, let's do it. I love it. So shut off his access to the emails because I know he'll cheat because he's unethical. But only you can look at the emails and you're going to host that podcast. It's not cheating. It's creative winning. Damn it. Okay.

Look forward to that. Taking us out, a four-piece band from Otopody. Marlon's Dreaming was formed through a close friendship whose love of music challenged their sound. The band dropped their debut album, Lizard Tears, great name, in 2017. And front to back, it's a marvelous record. They've toured across New Zealand and Australia, selling out shows, and then later would take their act abroad. From their latest record, Hasten, that was released the first of this month,

here's Marlon's Dreaming with Showoman on 32 Thoughts at the Fire. I don't want to lose the only thing I need at this moment Already Already Already Winding down the window Catch my breath again before Walls ready Walls ready Thank you.