32 Thoughts: The Podcast - ESPN And The Future Of The NHL

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

The NHL has found its (back-to-the-future) broadcast partner in the United States. Jeff and Elliotte discuss why ESPN was the league’s top choice (13:10), what it means for NHL finances and what it���s like when a broadcaster loses its rights. They also break down the Bill Daly and Gary Bettman virtual media conference (2:00), offer […]

Oh, awesome. It's so good. Keep growing it. Thanks. Keep growing it, bud. All right. Ready? This podcast is dedicated to all of the healthcare workers, first responders, essential workers

during the past year. You got us through it. We see you. We thank you. And we also wanted to shout out the Conquer COVID assistance plan. The Twitter handle is at Conquer COVID assistance plan. The Twitter handle is at ConquerCOVID19. It relaunched this month. And Chris Johnson, of course, is doing his personal

marathon for it in April. So check it out. And thanks again for all of your efforts over the past year. Jeff? Doctors, nurses, people at grocery stores, people who deliver things, farmers, people who work at food banks, vet clinics, police officers, fire people, we thank you. And one of the ways I

think we can all thank these people is by being respectful, being healthy ourselves, and trying to take care of one another. Sometimes when we're faced with an enemy like this, our greatest danger comes from ourselves. Let's try to take care of each other. What are the biggest challenges you face returning to normalcy? What are your biggest unanswered questions right now? And what are sort of the signposts that you need to see to get back to normal? I'll let Bill answer, but I want to say one thing as an intro.

I've been accused of being a bit of a control freak. So having so many things out of our control isn't exactly my idea of a good time. But in this pandemic world, I've had to adjust that as well. Bill, perhaps you can be more specific. I mean, I don't view our approach to the future to be any different than the approach we've taken since day one of the pandemic. Okay, that's probably as close as Gary Bettman has moved into the realm of stand-up comedy. Welcome to 31 Thoughts, the podcast presented by the GMC Sierra AT4. Let's start it right there, the Gary Bettman Bill Daly press conference and the control freak, Lionel Elliott.

I was driving while this press conference was on. I was listening to it. And when he said that, I started laughing so hard, I almost got into a car accident. It's a great deadpan. But the reason it also made me kind of laugh when I thought about it more, Jeff, is that imagine you're that much of a control freak, and then this hits you. Yeah. Talk about being out of control. We talked about this a couple of different times here on the podcast.

This is the greatest challenge that any commissioner, certainly this commissioner, has ever faced in their tenure. This is complete new territory for all these commissioners. And front and center for the purposes of this podcast is Gary Bettman. And it has to be endlessly frustrating. To your point, I remember talking to various people around the league that have been to meetings with Gary Bettman. And it has to be endlessly frustrating to your point. I remember talking to various people around the league that have been to, to meetings with Gary Bettman and how he controls and conducts. It's like a symphony and how, you know,

he does not go into a meeting. He'll never go into a vote without already knowing how the vote is going to go. Otherwise that meeting will not happen. Thank you very much. Like I remember talking to, to Doug McLean once about Gary Bettman addressing general managers and going through their salary structure and asking them to

explain some of, if not all the contracts that they had signed. And Doug would say like, it was tense meetings, but that's him controlling the entire situation. How many times have you ever heard, you know, have you heard the saying about Bettman that no matter what room he's in, he's the smartest person in it? Well, it's the old question, right? A lawyer should never ask something that he or she doesn't know the answer to. Yeah.

He never goes into a room without knowing exactly where everyone stands and what the vote is going to be. Yeah. Okay, so a few things coming out of that that we should get to. As much as many Canadian fans may love the Scotia North division, Elliot, don't marry yourself to it. No, and I think they should, but I've had a lot of conversations about this. And one of the reasons it's not going to happen, he talked about how, for example, the American fans want to see, get their one visit from Austin Matthews and Connor McDavid

and the Canadian fans want their visit from Sidney Crosby. And I think that's very legitimate and very true. I do think we're going to go to a bit more of a divisional heavy schedule, which I think all these teams are kind of looking at and saying we like it better, but we're going to be five years left on our TV deal at the end of this. And to me, the Canadian deal is more valuable

when you know, you have four Canadian teams that are going to be in the playoffs. Of course. Why wouldn't you do something like that? But one of the things people pointed out to me was we're going to 25 and seven, right? It doesn't work. So your only option is, are you going to ask Seattle to go into the Canadian division? Are you going to ask Buffalo to go into the Canadian division?

Once upon a time in the NHl if you look historically the new team in the league has no say where they go and they go where they're put period and that happened to arizona right yeah their owner at the time was not the current owner it was bear away when they got moved and they're going in next year into the central and he wasn't happy about that, but they just said, you're going there. However, I think this is different. I don't know if it would be fair to Buffalo or, or Seattle to do that. So that's one of the reasons I think that the Canadian division, uh, won't last. Having said that there is a a certain spirit that

i think will cross over into the uh into the divisions next year as arizona goes to the central and seattle the pacific as you mentioned multiple games per city stop you're not just coming in for one shot and you're gone you're probably coming in for two now sounds like there's a big appetite for that well the players like it there's no appetite for that. Well, the players like it. There's no question about that. And if it wasn't a year where it had to sit in their hotel rooms or a team lounge and do nothing, I think it would really have huge

approval. And so I could definitely see that continuing. A couple of other things here to get to. I thought it was interesting that uh the conversation about how much money was recouped uh during play this year and you've talked about how there are some things that are going to stick around things we're going to see that aren't just one and done not just quick cash grabs and one of the things highlighted is revenue from helmet ads. Yeah.

So I think it was Mark Burns from the sports business journal who asked the question. And I understand at the board of governors meeting, they talked about things like the digital imprints on the ice, the board ads, the glass ads before the glass behind the bench was taken out, the helmet ads. I think the figure was something like a hundred million dollars. They've recouped from all of these things, but you know, you can't have the tarps when fans come back. You can't have the ads on the glass around the rink when fans come back,

but you can still do the digital ads and you can still do the helmet ads. If I think from what I understand, they said the helmet ads recouped about $52 million. And so now you can sell them. I definitely think you're going to see those stay i think the digital ads on the ice i think are going to stay and you know the other thing is and i think this is important is that next year they're talking about a full season i have to tell you a month ago i was talking to some people who were really nervous about it. They were really nervous about what next year was going to look like,

particularly in Canada. They were concerned. And, you know, now there's people my age and I'm 50 in the States who are getting vaccinated. And I do think there are some players now who've been vaccinated and, you know, in Canada, hopefully we get our butts in gear pretty soon, but I think they feel more comfortable now as opposed to maybe even a month or two ago as to where we're going in this country. When you look at it now, I want to go back to the, uh, the ads on helmets here.

There was a lot of anytime you would bring it up, just like when you bring up ads on the jerseys now. There was a lot of clutching of the pearls. Was there not about putting a, putting a logo. Berkey is one of the worst. Yeah. Meanwhile, almost making like cartoons of Berkey with me liking Beef Wellington in the middle of them.

New Hey Berkey just dropped on Thursday. It's a good one. Cameos from Elliot Friedman and Kathy Broderick. I got sewered in this episode. I loved your good headline line. That's the one that made me laugh out loud. That was a great one. But there was a lot of hand-wringing about it, right?

There was a lot of out damn spot, out damn spot about this. And since we've started to play, have you heard one person say a peep about them? No, they're not very intrusive, the helmets, no. Maybe you notice them for a minute, but you get used to it. And you know where I really remember that was the netting, when the NHL had to put up the netting. At the beginning, I remember looking at this and saying, I'm going to hate it, and then after five games, you're used to it.

It goes away. Draft. Yeah. The commissioner talked about it. What do you hear? What do you know? know well as they said it's more likely than not that the draft stays in july i now believe we have a firm deadline it's monday um that if the league and the players association can't uh get uh an agreement by monday

they're going to announce that the draft is going to stay and i think we're all expecting that to happen you know the other one, too, is the lottery. The league has approved the changes. The executive board has approved the changes. Now the entire board of governors have to approve the changes by electronic vote. That's going to happen. That's perky, by the way.

It's so bad. You know, I'm glad we still have a lottery i really do i i like the lottery i do think and i know the commissioner said that there are some clubs who recently think it's important that the teams that are struggling the most uh get the most help uh there are other teams a number that think there's nothing wrong with the present system at all. I don't believe there's tanking in the game. I think our players

and our organizations, our coaches are too professional, but there's always speculation, not necessarily from you, but some of your colleagues as to what's really going on. There's no tanking in our league. I will respectfully disagree with the commissioner on this one. Mike Babcock in his interview with Christine Simpson on our air talked

about the Maple Leafs tanking to get Austin Matthews a couple years ago. Doing what we had to do to make sure we got Austin Matthews. Yes, yes. We went from making sure we finished last to get Austin Matthews. We built a program that was competitive. And that team that year was legitimately not very good, right? Like it's, it's not like they went out of their way to do it, but they knew what the prize could be.

Tim Murray, who, uh, who gave, uh, left-handed sticks to right shot players to make sure they got Connor McDavid. Like that was a pretty obvious one and they got jack eichel out of that one yeah if you look at it it's interesting because you know now with only moving up 10 spots and limiting the amount that you can advance does it it actually increase the chance or the reason for teams to tank when they know they may not be very good? Yeah.

Because it increases your odds, right? The thing about tanking that's so weird is we all sort of agree we know it when we see it. We just can't define what it is. That year with Arizona and Buffalo. It looked like it, but. No, don't say it looked like it. It hit you like with a blunt

hammer. We all know what they were doing, but write down what constitutes tank. Like turn yourself into a lawyer for a second and submit a paper, a lawyered paper on what tanking is. Good luck. It's like trying to explain jazz. I can't tell you what it is i just know it when i hear it that's how i look at tanking like we all know what buffalo was up to we all know what the coyotes were trying to do of course we do it's pretty obvious any sane person would look at that but you just you know reference you know the you know the lawyer gary betman you know show me a paper that explains what tanking is Google United States Supreme Court Justice

Potter Stewart I know it when I see it The ESPN deal, we're getting some more Details on this now Yes, I go back to the 2019 Stanley Cup Final Which was Boston-St. Louis And I remember at the time there were a lot of

Rumors that a deal was being worked on with NBC and ESPN where NBC would keep 80% of the deal and ESPN would get the other 20. And that was kind of the way it was going to work and NBC would get a larger share of the playoffs and things like that. And I remember talking to a player about that rumor and the player told me at the cup final that they really wanted to be on ESPN on some level.

They thought it was important that the NHL was on ESPN because ESPN sets the sports mandate in the United States and it's a powerful engine. It drives conversation. It also has a big social media presence. To the players, it was important. And as I talked to some teams based in the States, they believed that it was important too. I think if anything, they were a little bit wary.

First of all, there were a lot of teams who believed that nbc was a good partner because it was a big priority for them there were a lot of games on and they felt that nbc tried to treat them very well and they were worried with espn's big cupboard that you know they wouldn't necessarily be a big priority. That was what some teams were worried about. But again, they said the same thing that the players did, that you have to be on there because they set the sporting agenda. The thing that I think is very interesting about this deal

is that I think when we look back at it, and it's a seven-year deal, But I think when we look back at it, and it's a seven-year deal, we're going to look at it like it was ahead of its time. And the reason I say that is, Jeff, there was a time where you, me, and Amal, and a lot of people who are older who may be listening to this conversation would say, if you just had 25 games on ABC or ESPN, you would call that deal a disaster oh 100 100 but those days are over and espn plus and those of you listening canada may not be familiar with that that's espn streaming service already had a deal for the nhl it was 100 million a year approximately now they've got the whole shebang at somewhere between 410 and 420 million dollars a year and they are going to be incentivized to push that streaming platform and that's what a couple of people have said to me that, hey, regardless of what you thought about the NHL on ESPN in the past, if you thought that ESPN didn't give it enough attention, ESPN is going to have financial incentive to drive sales to their ESPN+. Hockey's got a passionate fan base and they you know, they will have incentive to push that. Absolutely.

So when I, when I look at something like this, much like I look at our company as well, because we're in the same game, to me, there's three pillars when it comes down to it. One, there's the event, you know, do you have the event? So ESPN gets the event. But then after that, to me, there's two more pillars. There's the editorial slash conversation, and then there's the interaction, i.e. sports gambling. Is ESPN best suited to handle all three for the NHL? I would say yes.

That to me is the question. If you own the event, can you also own the editorial slash conversation and the interaction around it? I think there's no problem. I think ESPN has shown, like we said, it's a driver. No, and that's why I asked that. Because if you're a driver, you control all those three things. Absolutely. And the other thing too is there are people there who are extremely passionate about the sport.

Look, people are interviewing Gary Thorne. I'd love to get back. You know, the other thing too is there are people there who are extremely passionate about the sport. Look, people are interviewing Gary Thorne. I'd love to get back in. And never mind the people who are already there who love hockey, the John Bucciagrosses, the Steve Levees, the Emily Kaplans, the Greg Wyshynskis. We're taping this. Linda Cohen. Linda Cohen, of course, yes, absolutely.

We're 48 hours after the announcement was made. And how many applications do you, well, I don't even know if you do applications anymore, but how many people do you think have reached out? About $11 billion, probably. They're going to have no problem. Now, the other side of this is, what's the second deal? We know that this is a four out of seven deal for the stanley cup finals yep uh we also know that there's room for more over the air broadcasts you know the winter

classic you know this kind of thing there's still a package there and that'll be interesting because pre-pandemic um betman was hoping to get somewhere between $650 and $750 on this. $650 was what he thought he could get. $750 was kind of the dream. Then the pandemic hit. Everything changed. I think he did a really good job to get that deal. I'm curious about the second deal.

Now, NBC, I think, is in there. NBC just doubled its financial input into the nfl and brian roberts who runs comcast which runs nbc said you know we have basically said we have to make some difficult decisions here and our partners have to understand that i think they're at a number which the nhl or at least were at a number which the nhl considered too low and now it was okay we're grinding each other how can we get to where we want to get and i'm sure nbc is disappointed too like i said a lot of the teams in the u.s considered nbc a great partner i remember being at cbc when we lost the rights to Sportsnet and just the feeling that there was

there. It's like, you're the partner that just got broken up with and you're sad and upset. And the other partners already jumped to say their new girlfriend and they're madly in love and you have to hear all about it on tiktok it's hard so i'm sure nbc is disappointed they're not inclined to give the nhl too much of a break right now so what betman has to do is can he grind that number up or can he find someone else that gets him somewhere between five and six hundred million dollars if he can do that right i think everybody's going to be pretty content let me get back to the secondary partner thing in a second i've never asked you this before um and i've always wondered about it because i by that time i had left cbc and i had gone over to rogers to work at sportsnet

yeah so what was it like at cbc because at our company it was high fives in the hallways, right? Of course. What was it like at CBC working at Hockey Night the rest of that season, knowing at the end of it, the rights were going to another company? Oh boy, I think you just asked me about two chapters in my book. First of all, I will say that that day that they announced it was a very challenging day for my family for a lot of different reasons which i'm not going to get into in the podcast so in that moment i was very worried about my family and my professional future you know one before

the other family first the other thing too is I remember the conference call where we were told and the spin that some people tried to put on it. And I was actually in a hospital when that happened. All the emotions I had, there was so much going on in my brain. Not to say that my situation was any worse than anyone else's because i don't believe that but in that moment there were some things going on that i was

thinking to myself okay if bad things happen in threes i don't want to know what the third thing is right now and um i remember i couldn't listen to our conference call anymore. I had to turn it off. I was like, I cannot handle this spin anymore today. And then I watched the press conference and I remember saying to myself, I've been at the top of the business and I've been at the bottom of the business. I understand what it's like. You can't be jealous of anyone else. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. And I remember I got a call from Scott Moore and he said, Elliot, it's going to take time here, but you're going to be part of this team. Just leave it with me and eventually it'll get sorted out. And that kind of made me feel better.

I remember my contract didn't get sorted out until June. Like it took several months, but I just felt better. And I had one other offer to consider at the time. So I knew in the long run, I was going to be okay. I just remember what that day was like. And I understand what the NBC employees are going through. What was it like going to work? Like I understand that day and like and I understand what the NBC employees are going through what was it like going to work like I understand that day and the gravity of it and watching the press conferences at one

Mount Pleasant but you guys went through like pretty much an entire season and playoffs like what was the mood there like there's some really like upbeat people there at the you know that were working at hockey night at that at that point and it's got it must have been tough to put on the hey we're all marching in the same direction face here all i can say about myself is i went through that year in a fog i i had no idea how i got through that season just because there were a lot of things going on like not only professionally but personally like i alluded to before that really had me in a weird spot i figured i was going to be okay because they called and told me

but my professional life didn't get sorted out till during the stanley cup final so that was a strange year there was one incident and the people who worked with us at CBC will know which incident I'm talking about that happened during the playoffs. It's not my story to tell. I was there. I witnessed it, but you could see there were people who knew they were going to be okay. And there were people who were worried they weren't going to be okay. And just the stress it created in people, it was really tough to watch. It was hard. And Jeff, in life, I just want to see people do well. I really want to see people be successful. And the challenges that put on people who were worried about their future, it was very, very hard for me to watch because

you want to help people out, but in a lot of ways you're powerless because it's like what Bettman talked about. I don't have any control over who gets hired, right? I was asked once, I recommended as many people as I could. I spoke highly of people, but I really don't have any power into that. And seeing people in that moment it was it was not easy that's for sure so doing the deal then with espn and doing this deal with whomever the secondary broadcaster is here what are the dynamics at play what type of leverage would the NHL have? Because the first thing you want to do when you're in a situation like this, much like what happened here in Canada between CBC, Rogers, and Bell for the rights, is the first thing you do is you create a marketplace. Yep.

Obviously, ESPN interested. You mentioned NBC has a number that they're sticking to i would have to imagine that fox would be slash could be part of this marketplace for the nhl do you have a read i don't all i heard was nbc was like they warned everyone they had a threshold they could go to and they really weren't prepared to go much farther and And the NHL wasn't in a position where they were willing to go down to that threshold. Fox, I honestly don't know. Like I've heard rumors that they're big into it. I've heard rumors that they're not big into it.

I don't know the answer to that. All I know is that I believe the league is hoping to get between 500 and 600. I think if they could do that at this point, that would be a very big win. And we're at what? Somewhere between 410 and 420. So you're hopeful you're getting there. But you know, the thing is, and we talked about this, the streaming, ESPN's got the streaming rights, right?

That was a big part of our deal, was getting those streaming rights. I'll tell you this, as you know, Bettman is a polarizing guy. Some people really like him, some people really don't like him. And there were people I know who aren't big fans of his who looked at that ESPN deal and said, in these circumstances, that's a really good job.

And they're hopeful to see what he can do with the second. But the fact that you do one and not the other, you announce it this way and that there was no number figure in the press release. When Rogers did the deal, it was the first thing that was out there. 5.2 billion. It just shows you the challenge. It shows you.

And the other thing, too, everybody asks about the salary cap. The salary cap's not moving for a couple of years. It's, it's going to be tight. I look at this as there's so many losses. This is just trying to mitigate them. Yeah, I agree.

I want to ask you about trade deadline. Okay. And April 12th is NHL trade deadline. And many are expecting it to be a quiet trade deadline, specifically amongst Canadian teams due to quarantine issues. What are your questions going into trade deadline this year? How many buyers are there? Does it seem like everyone's a seller right now?

Well, there's definitely more sellers than there are buyers. I'm just looking through the standings quickly. Who are the buyers? I think the Lightning, they're getting Kucherov back. Maybe they look to add something. I think they might want to plug a hole or two, although they don't have very many holes. Look good.

I think Carolina's looking at some things. Maybe a defenseman. They have a lot of offensively minded defensemen talented ones i think they might be looking for someone who's just thinks defense first as opposed to offense i think they might be looking at a depth forward i think they might be looking at another goalie they're obviously not going to do all of them but i think they're a buyer toronto's definitely a buyer when you say they're a buyer does that mean that they will take on money or is this still money in money? I think they're a team that's interested in adding.

Maybe that's a better way of looking at it. Okay. And because I think one comes with the other, I think, look, I think they're like Edmonton, for example, I think they'd be interested in adding and being a buyer,

but because of where they are with the cap, it's going to be money in money out. Right there's like 20 teams in ltir jeff yeah that doesn't create a situation where a lot of teams can really quote unquote buy so toronto i think is i think edmonton's interested i think winnipeg is interested but I don't know if they want to go through the quarantine thing again. Montreal, I could see it. Boston, for sure. I'm not convinced Philly will. Philly, I think, is beginning to wonder if they're in sort of how good are we mode this year.

They've got seven coming up with Washington, the Rangers, and the Islanders. I think that answers their question. Colorado, I think, would like to add, but I think they're careful with their budget. Minnesota's a team I'm really curious about. Guerin. But are there 12 buyers

maybe? And how many of them are really willing to add dollars? I'm going to get a couple of Ask 31s in here and one of it I think will lead to a bigger discussion. This from AJ Martin With limited opportunities for draft eligible players to

showcase their talents, do you see teams being more or less likely to move 2021 picks in a trade? You know what I think Elliot? I've been thinking a lot about this How valuable are your picks in this year's draft? Considering scouting is challenged,

a lot of players haven't played a whole lot. This is going to be one of those bizarre draft seasons where the best player in the draft may end up being selected at 24th. I think if I'm an NHL team, I want as many lottery tickets as possible, knowing that who knows where the best value is going to come in the first, second, or third round. What do you think? I always think that's the best way to believe.

I heard from one scout yesterday who said to me that their organization is just looking at it as we can't complain about it anymore. the best way to believe. I heard from one scout yesterday who said to me that, you know, their organization is just looking at it as we can't complain about it anymore. This is where the draft is likely going to be in July. We better be ready for it.

Yeah. And that's the only attitude you can have. I know teams are frustrated. I know they're upset. I get it. But at some point, you have to just be willing

to accept reality. The scouting thing we talked about last week on the podcast, and I've had a lot of conversations with scouts ever since. You look at Buffalo and Buffalo hasn't replaced a lot of the scouts when they did their call last year. Lance Lasowski pointing this out on Twitter

that, you know, WHL, no scout. Finland, no scout. There's no OHL scout for the Buffalo Sabres. They haven't had a Russian scout, uh, for three or four years. Buffalo just stays away from Russians in the draft. Um, in general, I mean, all this is done, uh, on video. And one person that I talked to said what some NHL teams are doing now, Elliot is instead of replacing a scout in an area, they're just hiring junior

scouts right now for a couple of hundred dollars a month and getting them to send in reports. Like it's a really poorly scouted year for the draft. And that's why I say get as many picks as you can. I think there's some teams who have older scouts who before they got the vaccine, weren't very comfortable with traveling, or maybe you have a health condition or someone, your family has a health condition. And I believe teams have been sensitive to that. I get all that. OHL return.

You know, it is interesting. And this has been pointed out a couple of different places that, you know, the hockey hotbed of the world is the only place that they're not playing. It sounds, Elliot, like it'll still be a couple of weeks. It sounds like it will be bubbles, you know, five, 14 bubbles. We've heard 24 games. One of the interesting things that's popped up over the last little while as the OHL inches towards a return to play

is the decision that some players will have to make. Either you play at the U18 or you play in the OHL or you play your junior hockey, but because of quarantine, you can't do both. Now the U18s in Texas this year, as you pointed out a while ago, teens in Texas this year, as you pointed out a while ago, runs April 26th to May 6th. It's going to be an easy decision for some and a more difficult decision for others. It's a challenging one though. What do you do? Do you go to the U18s where it's peer on peer or do you stay in your junior loop where there's going to be, you know, everybody watching you? It'll be heavily scouted, even if scouts aren't allowed in the building, video scouting.

Do you stay in your junior loop or do you go to the U18s? I would bet every agent who is involved with this or family advisor who's involved with this is calling teams to ask that exact question what do you think is better if you're draft eligible what do you think is better or saying i think you're you're saying to your the team hey where do you think you want to see my guy do you want to see him at a short tournament like the u18s or do you want to see him in 24 games in the ohl yeah and that's where you get your answer see i think for higher end kids like the kids that are looking at going you know first round top 10 i think of a defenseman like brant clark with the barry colts

i probably go u18 because there's already been quote-unquote enough scouting done to get him to that position and maybe the only questions you have are how does he perform best on best but for others for you jack can see them saying you know what i'm staying in the ohl if i was an agent i'm doing a poll i'm calling teams and i'm saying where do you want to see him do you want to see him at the under 18s or do you want to see him at the in the ohl and that gives me my answer we shall see what happens with the ohl uh in their return that story continues a couple more things uh before we get to uh justine blaney who we should have mentioned off the top who's our guest this week. Justine famously in 1986 won a court challenge that allowed girls to play boys hockey

in the then MTHL, now known as the GTHL. I want to get your thoughts on Wayne and Keith Gretzky. So I sat down with them on Wednesday to talk about their father, Walter, and there's been so many wonderful stories that have come out since Walter passed. Jason Shipley, for example, is the president of Rawlings Canada. And he sent me a text on Thursday after Walter passed because everyone has their Walter stories now and they're all coming out. And he was playing a beer league game on like a Tuesday night at the Wayne Gretzky Center in Brantford where Walter lived and Wayne grew up.

And I guess they're losing or they're getting blown out. And, you know, Walter would always be sort of around the rink. And Jason said, you know, we're losing this game. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Walter shows up on the bench and says something to the effect of, you guys stink. You need a coach. And Walter just started coaching this beer league game for Shipley squad.

And, you know, thereby everybody got their Walter Gretzky story. After that, it was real nice sitting down with, with Wayne and Keith. Last Thursday, the hockey world lost a giant as Walter Gretzky passed away at the age of 82.

Since then, we've seen an outpouring of love for Canada's hockey dad. If you've spent any time on social media, you've read the stories and seen the pictures. Kindness and love, generosity and charity, hockey and family. The life of Walter Gretzky. We welcome Wayne and Keith Gretzky. Gentlemen, first, we offer our condolences. Wayne, you spoke beautifully on Saturday, and I think this country knows now what it feels like when 38 million hearts break all at the same time.

Your father was such a wise man, such a wise hockey dad as well. I'm curious, and Wayne, we'll start with you. Was there anything that your father told you or observations that he made along the way that they really found a home with you well first of all i just wanted to thank everyone um obviously it was a tough 21 days and very emotional time for everybody uh in the gretzky house to say the least but the city uh the people who knew we were in town continuously uh took care of us each and every day. And the outpouring of condolences from people across the country were exceptional. I think for me personally, he really didn't say a whole lot as far as you have to do this better or you have to be better at that. I think that he was a pretty simple, basic man. From my point of view, one of the things that he used to always say is that

failing to prepare is preparing to fail. And he used to tell me, if you live by that, that'll take you a long way in life. And I think that pretty much sums up what he really thought about each and every day. Wise words. Keith, anything from you that your father said to you? No, I echo what Wayne said. His biggest thing is that you do No, I echo what Wayne said. His biggest thing is that you do something, go and do it 100%. There's no sense just doing it 50%. Don't waste your time.

And if you do something 100%, good things will happen when you do that. It doesn't matter if you score four goals, but as long as you worked hard. And he was all about working hard, and that's what he instilled in all of us. I want to ask you about your father, the athlete, as well. We talk so much about Walter in regards to his children and their athletic pursuits. What about your dad, the athlete, who was a wonderful hockey player, track and field as well, Wayne?

How much did he talk about himself growing up? He didn't talk a lot you know when we would drive by the high school every sunday we'd go to my grandparents farm for uh sunday dinner or sunday afternoon and then dinner periodically he'd brag about that his name was still on the board for records and running in high school. But my funniest memory was I was a stick boy for his intermediate hockey club when I was four years old. And I can remember distinctly on the way to the game him giving me a lecture about different things to do in the game and what you shouldn't do.

And one of the things he told me was never cut through the middle of the ice and take a pass from a defenseman with your head down. And as I took the sticks on the bench to start the period, the first period of the game, before I knew anything, I looked up and he was out cold. And I remember I said to him, I said, what happened there? He said, I had my head down. So it was one of those do as I tell you, don't do as I do.

But he was a pretty good athlete. You know, he was a nice skater. We used to always tease that he got invited to Toronto Marlies Junior A training camp and he couldn't go because he got the chicken pox. And so for years and years forever, we used to always tease that he would have played in the NHL had it not been for the chicken pox. Oh, that's something. Keith, anything you can recall that your father taught you

that always stuck with you on the ice? Not really. It's just everything. And I think the one thing is baseball where, you know, he'd build us a mound in the backyard. And the way he taught us to throw the ball, the windup, you thought he had pitched in the major leagues. And I don't even think he played baseball, but we listened.

And, you know, it was one of those things that you just stuck with us. That's outstanding. And listen, when we think of the Gretzky name, we think of a number of things. And right near the top of the list is charity. And 50-50 draw tonight. Ditto on Friday as well. Charity has always been a big thing, Wayne, for your family.

Well, you know, my dad always said everything's always happened for a reason to our family. And the CNIB Canadian school is in our hometown of Brantford. As everyone knows, my aunt was mentally challenged. Young Joey was mentally challenged. So helping people who are less fortunate has always been part of our life. For 25 years, my dad picked up a young blind boy, took him to church every Sunday, never missed. So we all learned that from my dad, and it was passed down to all of us. A wonderful man, a wonderful father as well, and Canada's hockey dad. I'm sure you take some comfort in that. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jeff. What did you think of the interview, Elliot? First of all, I think you look more like Keith than Wayne does. Keith looks good. Yeah. You had a line at the beginning that really resonated with them. You could tell by their facial expressions, about 38 million hearts collectively breaking.

Yeah. That meant something to keith and wayne people wanted to hear from them it was i think the word i would use is comforting it was just comforting to listen to the two of them tell their stories in that moment and i really enjoyed it you know sometimes you know when you don't talk about the game and there's a different piece in there you're wondering is it going to work? I don't think there was any question that that worked. We thank Keith and Wayne for doing that interview on our Wednesday night hockey broadcast.

We'll step away briefly. When we come back, you will hear from Justine Blaney, pioneer, opened the door for girls to play hockey with the boys. That's next. Elliot, at a time where we celebrate and elevate the achievements of women, for people like us who grew up in the 80s in Ontario, the name Justine Blaney holds big significance. Her landmark 1986 Ontario Supreme Court discrimination ruling opened a door that allowed girls to play hockey with the boys.

Justine now runs the Justine Blaney Wellness Centre in Brampton and joins us now to look back at how her bravery changed the course of hockey in this province. Justine, good morning. Thank you so much for dropping by today. Good morning. There's a lot to get to here. I sort of gave a rough outline of the legal challenge to not being allowed to play with the boys in the MTHL in the 80s. Can you walk our listeners through a sort of nickel and dime tour of what your story was? It started as a young girl where I grew up in a Catholic family and girls did what girls were supposed to do. I was supposed to clean the house,

do ballet, do tap dancing, gymnastics. Girl sports is what I was told to do. And yet when I figure skated and did tap dancing, nobody came to watch me me and I had divorced parents. I wanted attention and they would all come to watch my brother's hockey games and cheeries games on. But when I did my figure eights, there would be nobody. And I was super jealous. My brother and I were born in the same year and I wanted what he had. I wanted that attention and I wanted that attention from my dad. So I said, I want to play hockey. Come on. I want to play just like my brother. My dad said, girls don't play hockey. Stick to what girls do. So I whined. Basically, I whined, I whined, I whined. I wanted that attention and wore my mother down. And that's who I lived with at the time. So she found me a girls team. And it didn't take long for me to

realize at nine years of age that my brother still got more than I did, more games, more ice time, you know, more sponsorship and still more attention. So I said, I want to play with my brother. And of course the answer was no, stick with the girls. So I whined some more and I wore my mother down and she helped me write a letter to the newspaper saying, I want to play hockey with the boys, but they're prohibiting me. And through that letter, thankfully with Lois Kelchum, a reporter, she found me our lawyer, Anna Fraser, and her family who took on our court case for free, you know, dealing with a single parent mom, trying to support her young daughter who wants to play hockey, just like her son.

And my dad still wasn't on par. Amazing family. And we started a human rights complaint saying that, you know, that girls were being treated differently in sport and we lost and it was thrown out. And at that time I was hated. It was already in the news. Friends

disowned me. Teachers slammed doors in my face. People threw things at me at the rink. People forced me to dress in the hallway because that was safer to dress in front of all the dads and moms instead of in the dressing room with other 10-year-old boys and just totally made my life miserable. So at that time, I had to choose, do I want to quit and just play hockey with the girls? And my mom always said, just sleep on it, decide in the morning. And of course, I wanted to play hockey with the guys. They had body checking and girls don't. And still today, girls have no body checking and the boys do. Still today, boys get more ice time, more games, games closer to home, more sponsorship. Of course, not with the pandemic.

But if we're looking back to 2019, these areas of difference still exist. You can still play with more people your own age. In girls hockey, I was playing with people four years older. It's not that I didn't get along, but we didn't relate. You know, they're in high school. I'm in grade school. And so I still wanted to play hockey with the boys. So Anna took on our case from the Supreme Court of Ontario, having to wait till the Ontario Canadian Charter came in that said you could not discriminate on the basis of sex.

that said you could not discriminate on the basis of sex. So we had to use the Canadian Charter that came in in 1982 and go on all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, where we won. And along that time, again, just practicing and practicing with the boys, but playing girls hockey. Hated by the girls at girls hockey. Hated by OWHA, Ontario Women's Hockey Association, constantly being ridiculed in the media or in the, you know, just thrown off buses,

chased off buses, crank calls to the home and horrible letters to the house, and just continued on. And when I won the court case, I thought it was over, but it wasn't. And I had to go back to the Human Rights Commission to make a complaint. So we won in that complaint, finally in the Ontario Human Rights Commission, almost another year later. And it wasn't until 1987 that I was able to hit the ice with the guys. Got a couple of years in, and I am five foot four and sometimes a half. I tried to add that in. But so played body contact right until I was 18 and then moved on to back to women's hockey after that. One of the places I'd start is Justine, I think we've spoken on the phone before,

but I feel like I know you. And the reason I say that is I was 10 years old when your story first hit the Toronto Star. And I just remember what a big deal it was. And this is obviously, this is 1981. So this is well, well, well before the social media era. But it was still a huge story. I was still playing house league hockey at the time and everybody was talking about it. I remember my parents talking about it.

I grew up with two sisters and eventually four and you know, in my family, we were talking about it. And I remember at school, people talking about it. And I just wonder what it was like for you at that age. Cause I think in the social media area era,

it's really hard for kids to grow up with an opinion everywhere. There wasn't that back then, but it still sounds like it was a lot. It was horrible. The guys on my team were phenomenal. I had several great teammates that really came to court cases with me and supported me. Odi Abuchakra, just amazing support. And my brother was there for me. My mother was there. And eventually my dad turned around and went and fought for equality issues at his Scarborough golf course and at his workplace for equality issues for same-sex benefits.

And so he turned around after I won in the Supreme Court of Canada. But during that time, we didn't use the word depression, but I would have used it today. I turned to any friend I could have because the friends disowned me. So I ended up hanging out with a crowd that did drugs, that drank. I'm not proud of it, but by the time I was 16, 17, I could drink a full two, four on my own. I could drink a 26er and still have good marks. Subsequently, by the time I was 19, my mom called me an alcoholic and

I quit drinking fully, quit everything and am not drunk since. And I'm 48. So that just gives you an idea of the tough times. Just feeling alone, feeling hated. And so now thankful and grateful for my brother who stood by me. And that's why we run the Justine Blaney Wellness Center together. My brother, my sister-in-law and my husband and myself, we run the wellness center as a family. And I know that they are people that I can count on, even in those tough times when we're hated. Family loss promotions, family would tell me about, don't you know about

the birds and the bees? Don't you know you're destroying the Blaney name? Consequently, you know, later people, some of my cousins have had a chance to play hockey, girls, but at that time, it was definitely tough to have teachers slam doors, they tried to, they failed me in grade 10, because I missed too many classes, almost 250 classes going to court, even though I had an A average. And I had to go to the Board of Education to prove that I should still pass in grade 10, even though I'd missed so much class going to the Supreme Court of Canada and back. And then switch high schools because I just felt so hated, so outcasted at my current high school at that time. So it definitely, when you're different, you're hated. At Rina's, people

would throw popcorn on me. I mean, I'm literally just a teenager and parents throwing coffee at me, yelling obscenities. When I'd go to tryouts, they'd say, oh my God, we need new trainers because the trainers couldn't work with a female, same as a male. We need tampons and feminine hygiene products in our first aid kits. They would yell this out and I'd be just 12 years old, totally mortified at the things that they would say. So people can be cruel and I do believe we've improved, but we still have a long way to go in sport, in accepting different cultures into sport, learning how to accept a hijab, for example, learning how to accept people with different sexual preferences into sport or different

transitions. We're learning how to help accept people with different disabilities. We've got a ways to go. I still speak out in different high schools. And an example is telling the girls they get the pink bar instead of the blue bar. And the pink bar for weightlifting is 35 pounds for doing your bench press. And the boys get the 45 pound bar. And to me, that's highly insulting for somebody at my prime was benching over 200 pounds. So don't tell me I need the 35 pound bar. Don't tell a young person who wants to play football that the only way they can play football is that they carry all the gear to the field, but the boys don't have to do it. So there's just still challenges when we call it

boys football, boys hockey, boys basketball, just in the name excludes other females or other people who be transitioning from male to female female to male the terminology is still hasn't caught up with our legislation which says we should not discriminate in sport i can recall because i was much like elliot said i was playing hockey in the mthl at that point i remember the conversation that one of our coaches had with the entire team because like Elliot mentions, and you very well know this, this was the topic that everybody just talked about. There wasn't one dressing room in the MTHL, and I would even argue the majority of Ontario, where your name did not come up and that discussion wasn't had. And our coach was hot about it. He was one of these, you know, girls should stick with girls

and boys should stick with boys. And, you know, should you be able to go and play on the girls league then? I remember sort of puzzling to myself, like, well, why would I do that? And why is this such a huge issue? She's probably better than half the players on this team. I know that John Gardner, the late MTHL president, was pretty hot about the whole thing and was pretty angry about it. But what surprised me more than anything was how the OWHA,

the Ontario Women's Hockey Association, led by Fran Ryder, was against it as well. Like, I know there were many moments I'm sure you were disappointed, Justine, in people around you. Was any of it surprising to you? Absolutely. I would be helping women's hockey, but you're right. It was OWHA, Ontario Women's Hockey, was the main defender, not Ontario Hockey, the boys.

People think of it as a boys' network. There were definitely coaches that said, killer, get the girl. I would hear it from the stands. My parents would hear the stands. My mom would cringe. And I would draw penalties, hits from behind, multiple concussions to get me off the ice. You know, five separated shoulders and five knee injuries later. Definitely, it was killer. That was the attitude. Prove she doesn't belong. And every penalty that I drew was an advantage for my team, you know, the way I looked at it. Women's hockey thought that all the girls were so good that they would leave and rush to the boys. And that women's hockey thought that you did not need body checking, that women's hockey should be a finesse game. So, of course, that has not happened. It actually has improved the women's game because they got a lot of media attention and they've proven that women's game

generated way more females playing the game and that very few females actually want to switch over. The majority of females want to play with other girls. Majority of females don't want body checking. I'm sure they would love the extra ice time, the extra coaching, the extra training, the extra sponsorship that you get with playing typically called boys hockey, but really is co-ed hockey. So we do have a long way to go. And it was tough to always be that 10-year-old on TV going against Angela James,

who was 10 years older, and the Wayne Gretzky of women's hockey at that time. Interesting enough, we became teammates later. And I have huge respect for her. And to go against Vicky Serajera, you know, Olympian. But she later told me she was told to say those things if she wanted a chance to play on the Olympics. She was, you know, told to go in interviews with six adults and to sign a petition to stop Blaney. And they would take young girls to, you know, with multiple adults to sign the petition against me without explaining the full situation. So certainly everything that they feared has not happened. And women's hockey has only grown. But we still have a long ways to go there.

I mean, the pro female hockey players still don't get the same ice time, still don't get the same experience as a pro male hockey player, and certainly don't get the same income or even TV opportunities. So we're still, as far as a career opportunity, we've got a long way to go in not just hockey, but in many sports. The only areas that are somewhat equal is tennis and golf, but there's a lot more sports than tennis and golf. Listening to this interview, the thing I'm curious about most is if someone Googles you right now, what comes up first is Justine Blaney Broker and your wellness center. You're a chiropractor. You live in Brampton, just west of Toronto. And all these years later, are you in a good

place? Like you went through a lot. The stuff you talk about is very heavy. So I just think as a human. I am in a great place. I am. I'm glad to hear that. I am in a great place. I have two I'm glad to hear that. I am in a great place. I have two

kids, a top level figure skater, who's looking to go on to perhaps being a chiropractor as well. And a son who plays high level hockey was looking to play junior hockey this year. Of course, those dreams with the pandemic has, has been significantly affected, but 200 pounds of muscle, with the pandemic has been significantly affected, but 200 pounds of muscle, my son, and yeah, the best hockey player in the family now. So we're proud of that. I don't think I want to be rubbed out in the boards with my 18 year old now. But, you know, two great kids, a great family, family, way more supportive now. They just, I've learned to forgive that they weren't there when I thought I needed them, but understand that they just weren't ready. And that that's happening even today with respect to

COVID or with respect to anybody who's trying to make change or speak out against the norm, that they're just not ready to hear the truth. They're just not ready for change and to learn to accept them where they're at and try and meet them where they at, help them grow for these new changes and learn forgiveness as well. Just, you know what, I want to end on one thing here, and that is where the women's game is now. And you look around and I know you played in the original NWHL with Brampton, but you look at, you know, that league and what they're doing right now.

You look at the PWHPA and what they're doing right now you look at the pwhpa and what they're doing right now in associations uh with various nhl teams you look at you know how much interest is gathered at the world championships you look at how much interest there is for women's hockey in the olympics this is radically different uh than when when you made your stand in the MTHL in the 80s. What do you feel? How do you feel when you see this? I know there's still a long ways to go, and this mountain, we haven't even seen the top of it yet, but how do you feel when you see where the women's game is at right now? I am super excited. These are amazing athletes, and man, they seem to grow bigger and bigger, right?

Not just the male athletes, but the female athletes are getting, you know, taller and stronger and more trained and more committed and more dedicated. I see these as phenomenal athletes and the game is just continuing to progress for male and females. So I see that there's a great future for female hockey players and female athletes once we get out of this pandemic, maybe more so, but definitely that I see the future is bright. Just a last question I have for you, Justine, is we're in a challenging time, obviously, as a society. You gave some great advice earlier in the interview, which is sleep on it and then make your decisions the next day. That's something I always try to do. Just as someone who believes in wellness, what's your best advice to people out there who are

battling through the pandemic just in terms of their mental health? I absolutely believe that mental health is a huge challenge and anxiety and depression is just growing rapidly. And we're certainly seeing that at our wellness center. And definitely get moving. When you move your body, you change your mindset. Beautiful days to get out and get for a walk. Cold days, so what? Bundle up and get out there. You'd be on the ice anyway. So get moving. Movement helps change your mindset. And use music. Use even funny videos, funny podcasts. Keep educating yourself so you're growing. If you're standing still, you're going behind, really. You're getting behind. So keep educating yourself, keep moving yourself, and create a health care team. And that can include spiritual health, physical health, mental health, as you connect with them and your family. And I do think we will come on the other side of this. This has been great. Justine, I've long wanted to talk to you about this issue and about yourself and your journey and how much courage you had and how much bravery or bravery opened the doors for a lot of girls along the way. Thanks so much for stopping by the podcast

this week. You're welcome. Best wishes with your podcast. quick plug for our friend justine blaney her wellness center been serving the brampton community in ontario here for over 20 years they offer chiropractic care registered massage therapy acupuncture physiotherapy and holistic nutrition as well. The website is www.blaneywellness.com, B-L-A-I-N-E-Y wellness.com, phone number 905-840-9355. Doing a solid for Justine Blaney, who did everyone a solid back in the 80s. Elliot, Justine Blaney.

Great interview, very blunt and very honest. I enjoyed that. There was another name that got mentioned in the interview that I'm glad was talked about, and that was Lois Kaltman. For a lot of people who don't know Lois, she was the pioneering minor hockey writer. As you mentioned, you were an MTHL player. I was not. So I didn't really get into the minor hockey life, but everybody knew who knew Lois Kulshman's work. She covered it like nobody else did.

It was her beat. She owned it. And the stuff that she wrote in the Toronto Star was some of the paper's most popular stuff. And, you know, I'm just glad her name got mentioned because she was a real pioneer and a real trailblazer. Absolutely.

We thank Justine for dropping by the podcast this week. So a couple of Ask 31s to conclude the podcast this week, Elliot. We've had this one come in before, but I don't think we've addressed it. From Spruce Grove Corey,ory ask 31 should the nhl use franchise tags once per contract doesn't count against the cap for the season can't use it on

elcs or deals less than three years or the first or last year of a deal franchise tags i'm a big believer in all that kurt overhart did a big thing presentation about it for like an exceptional player. I totally support it. I don't think it'll ever happen, but I totally support it. From Mike Stevenson, does the New York Rangers view on the long-term Zibanejad plans change based on this year's struggles? A few months back, a $10 million a year contract extension seemed inevitable. Now, question mark. Yes, I do think there's an issue there

that they're considering. I think the whole sport right now, like if you look at what happened in free agency last year, there were a couple of players who hit the jackpot and then a lot didn't. And that's going to happen again this year. There's going to be one or two big winners, maybe a couple more, but a lot of them who won't.

And I generally believe you bet on centers. Like you look at teams, where do you build them? Center, defense, and in goal. Wingers are the kind of guys who get squeezed first. Like a top-level elite talent center like Zibanejad should technically break the bank, but he's not playing very well. And the Rangers, we all know they made a pitch for Eichel.

And, you know, depending on his injury and he went for a second opinion, the Rangers are going to look for a top center. Whether it's Eichel, Barkov, assuming he doesn't stay in Florida. Don't go too crazy on this. He's still got another year under contract. You know, there's lots of time to figure this out. But, you know, they're going to be looking. And I do think Sabinijad's play this year

and the fact he struggled has thrown a wrench into it. Now, there's still time for it to change. There's still half a season left. They've got to get into the playoffs. Who knows? Maybe Zubinijad turns it around and gets going and nobody's got any questions. But yes, right now, I do think it's created questions

in how the Rangers should proceed. This is sort of a parental question, I suppose. This comes from DNnft octo what is your favorite movie show and book for kids movie show and book for me movie would be spirited, which even as a grown-up, I can watch that movie every day. Show would either be Muppets or Sesame Street or any show that has characters that all

look different and are treated equally, I think is important for kids. And for books, Goodnight Moon's always been a staple in our family. Goodnight Moon's a great one. Good Night Moon. I would go with movie Home Alone. Yeah.

The show I loved watching with my son was Yo Gabba Gabba. Oh yeah, nice. Great show. He loved it. There were certain ones he would watch over and over and over again. I liked that the guy from devo was on there too i used to love devo whip it great song good night moon is a great choice but the other one there's very few things that make me ball on command i'm not really that sentimental but

the giving tree does it i've never read that one oh. Oh, Jeff. If you can get through that without bawling, you're a better person than me. It's the old yeller of books. Yes. And like I said, I'm not that sentimental. Very few things get to me. The Giving Tree, if I see that, it's like, uh-oh. Trouble.

Put the bathing suit on because I'm going swimming. All right. That's the podcast today. Thanks so much for joining us. Taking us out, and thanks to Justine Blaney, who was exceptional for stopping by this week. Taking us out, a band we featured in season two of the podcast, Mono Whales.

They're back with their new album, dropped last week. From that album, here are Mono Whales with Out With The Old On 31 Thoughts The Podcast Young and adulterated Life is R-rated Love equals sex Sex makes you famous Parents can't blame us

Oh what a mess to live for success Willing and able, both hands on the table I can only choose Sacked over the table, throw out the roses Out with the old and in with the new Out with the old and in with the new Out with the old and in with the new Out with the old and in with the

Out with the old and in with the Out with the old and in with the Young and adulterated Soon to be jaded Go fund your excess Pursuits to impress Teachers can't save us Judges can shame us

But now I get the best I'm here to confess Willing and able Both hands on the table I can only choose Facts on the table Throw out the rules Out with the old and in with the new Outro Music