32 Thoughts: The Podcast - How Did We Get Here and Where Are We Going

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

In this edition of 32 Thoughts, Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman have the latest developments on the Arizona Coyotes' potential move to Salt Lake City. Elliotte lays out how the entire plan was meant to unfurl and outlines how Alex Meruelo will be allowed to bring an NHL club back to Arizona (18:50). The fellas talk about Elliotte's trip down to Florida which turns into a conversation about Auston Matthews' quest for goal 70 (26:48). Jeff and Elliotte debate whether Jared Bednar and the Colorado Avalanche should start Alexandar Georgiev in their final game of the regular season (31:30) and the guys touch on the Eastern Conference playoff race as things begin to crystallize (36:38). Elliotte weighs in on Mark Stone's comeback from LTIR, and takes a stance on the Vegas Golden Knights' use of LTIR (43:00). They wrap the A block by revisiting the NCAA Men's Hockey National Championship and the IIHF Women's World Hockey Championship Games (54:00). The guys answer your questions in the Montana’s Thought Line (1:01:05). Jeff and Elliotte also sit down with Executive Producer Charlie Lyons to promote his upcoming documentary Saving Sakic (1:15:30).Email the podcast at [e-mail] or call the Montana's Thought Line at 1-833-311-3232 and leave us a voicemailThis podcast was produced and mixed by Dominic Sramaty and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Oh, by the way, I have to tell you, so we flew on Sunday morning. I think everybody on our plane has tickets to leave Panthers on Tuesday night. The number one question I was asked was, do you think Matthews is playing on Tuesday? I got tickets to the game. So if Matthews doesn't play on Tuesday, Keefe may not get out of the building alive. doesn't play on Tuesday, Keefe may not get out of the building alive. If they're going to do...

He's going to ruin a lot of vacations if Matthews doesn't play. Yes. Welcome once again to 32 Thoughts to Podcast presented by the GMC Sierra Elevation, Merrick Friedman, Dom Schramatti, and coming up on today's program, Elliot, our conversation from a couple of days ago with Charlie Lyons, who is the former chairman

and CEO of the Colorado Avalanche. Now, this is about a new documentary that he's one of the many stars in. It's a fantastic documentary. It's called Saving Sackick, and it's all about the $21 million offer sheet with the $15 million up front that the New York Rangers dropped on the Colorado Avalanche going back to August 7th, 1997.

We'll get into all of this a little bit later on in the podcast. But before we get rolling here, I understand you have a dedication for today's pod. Who are you dedicating it to? Well, I would like to dedicate the start of the pod to john buchigros who is the nhl or just in general hockey's true chicken parm connoisseur okay because this week i have taken my family to fort lauderdale for a pre-playoff

getaway which is going to be completely ruined by the coyotes. So I want everybody to know that I hate them here and my family really hates them. But for dinner tonight, I just got back. We went to an Italian restaurant near our hotel and I had chicken parm and it was excellent but it was a massive massive slab of cheese covered chicken parm and i ate it i didn't think anything of it and the server when she came back she said i have never seen anyone finish that before and i said no way

that it wasn't that big she goes i'm telling you this thing i didn't think it was that big but i do feel like i am doing this okay hold on hold on i just want to say hold on hold i do feel i'm doing this podcast in a food coma and i suddenly feel very immobile this is like a psychedelic drug to elliot by the way everybody um let's rewind to you eating what the uh the server said was the biggest lab uh that no one ever eats here at this place was it half the plate was it three quarters of it was its own plate spill over to the side it was his own did it spill over to the sides of the cheese spill no nothing spilled over it was his own own plate the penne was on a separate smaller plate like it was it was not small but it didn't strike me as being overly huge

the question i forgot to ask here was if she'd only been working at the restaurant for about a week. Because somebody else had to have finished this thing. Hmm. Was this like the old 96er? Was it like that, Elliot, from The Great Outdoors and John Candy? It was not as big as the old 96er. But I actually re-watched that scene to remember what you were talking about. But what you should have said then is if she said, we've never seen anyone eat that before, you should have said, does my family eat for free then? That's what you should have.

You're right. You're right. I'm going back. You should go back to the recording. No. I'm going back. You should go back tomorrow. Don, pause the recording. No, I'm going back right now. Oh, very good. Okay, well, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Okay, so it's Jeff here, Dom here, and Elliot in a food coma talking about, amongst other things, the Arizona Coyotes, Salt Lake City. What is, as we like to say in the business, Elliot, the Arizona Coyotes, Salt Lake City. What is, as we like to say in the business, Elliot, the latest? So the NHL wants to announce this this week. The Coyotes want to announce it this week. And Utah wants to announce it this week. And I think there was a feeling that as we went to air on Saturday, that was possible. You know, there's two things that can happen.

Either they get it all done and papered and everybody just goes ahead, or they get to a point where even though it's not done, everybody feels comfortable and is protected enough legally that they can go ahead and do it, even though it may not be 100% completed. I think the NHL wants to announce this before the playoffs begin. You'll remember in 2011, they did it before the finals began, and this time, I think they'd like to do it before the playoffs even start there was some optimism on Saturday that could occur but as several people told me in this business especially

with big time deals there have been occasions where individuals are all sitting at the table and looking each other waiting to sign and it doesn't get done for whatever reason so everybody is just being cautious jeff but hopeful what are the main issues out of this one right now that you can see like Like I threw in the Ring Fries blog this week, just I was having a conversation with someone who's been around negotiations like this for a long time, who said, is this five-year window that we keep hearing about for Alex Morello, is it transferable? Because even if he's not going to be able to put it together, that's of value. And that would turn a home run deal from Rello into a spectacular deal. Like I wonder about that one, or is it just exclusive to Alex Borello? We don't know any of this, but these are some of the questions that I have. I think we all have sort of questions about what this is going to look like, who's

going to be able to go. There's some 31 people, I believe, that are without contract with the Arizona Coyotes that are very nervous for obvious reasons. I put out there as well questions about some of the hockey programs that the Coyotes have been involved in, the Arizona Kachinas, which is the girls' program run by Lindsey Fry. That's gathered a lot of momentum.

It's doing really well. What happens there? There's the Junior Coyotes. I don't know if's gathered a lot of momentum. It's doing really well. What happens there? There's the Junior Coyotes. I don't know if it's a lot of that, but some of that has been sponsored by the Arizona Coyotes. What happens with that program? There's a lot of ex-NHLers

that are in and around that program. There's Dallas Drake. There's Derek Morris. There's Michael Grabner, Sean Burke's son, the goaltender, Brendan Burke. He's in and around and working with the junior Coyotes too. So, you know, the more you think about it and peel things away, you wonder what, you know, the ripple effects are to all of this. Do you have a couple that are in the front of your mind right now?

So here's what I can tell you about all this stuff and i i think that i really think that the goal here of the nhl and utah and to some degree the coyotes was that nobody was going to talk until this was announced and gary betman and alex morello were going to talk until this was announced. And Gary Bettman and Alex Morello were going to sit at a table in Arizona and explain. And they had a plan because they knew everybody out here was skeptical and they knew everybody had a lot of questions. And they knew that when it got out that Arizona was moving after all the talk about building the new arena and winning the auction, was moving after all the talk about building the new arena and winning the auction, that they better have a good way of explaining all this. But they lost control of it. Too many people knew, and they just lost control of it. Now, Arizona, I think, was under a gag order. If you saw that

statement that Alex Morello released on Saturday, that's basically a statement saying, hey, I can't talk, but I'll explain this when I can. And that was the goal here. I'm not sure how it's all going to work with Utah in terms of how they're going to introduce officially Ryan Smith. But the goal was Bettman, Morello explaining how it was all going to work. And it just didn't get there. And even though they're mad about it they can't be surprised it was impossible that this was going to stay quiet i i really do believe that i don't think they had a chance of it getting until next week it was going to get out at some point so what i think is was supposed to happen is that they were going to announce that the Coyotes hockey operations

were going to be moved to Utah and the AHL team was going to stay in Arizona. That would allow them to keep some of their business staffers employed. I don't know the exact number, but that was the goal that the business staffers would stay and run the American Hockey League team. It would play at Mullet Arena and they would be able to continue their youth hockey programs and at least the footprint of the Coyotes in Arizona, even though the NHL team wasn't there. That was the goal. Now, I still think that's the goal.

The problem is, as of the weekend, Utah and Arizona, and I'm talking about AHL Arizona, which is now Tucson, they don't have an affiliate agreement. talking about AHL Arizona, which is now Tucson, they don't have an affiliate agreement. And I was told it's part of the deal that Morello gets to keep the American Hockey League team and have it in Arizona. Now, not necessarily in Mullet. I still think that's something that needs to be worked out,

but it was part of the deal that he gets to keep an AHL team there. The biggest issue for me was, was it going to be with the Utah team? Because I had some people who told me that was far from a slam dunk and it wasn't necessarily certain. So that was one thing I think that needed to be sorted out because obviously Utah is going to need an American Hockey League affiliate of some kind. So that was one thing. The other things here that are really interesting is that, and there's a lot of people who've done a lot of good reporting on this. It's obviously not just me. There's been Craig Morgan. there's been John Gambadoro who's a radio host in Arizona there's Frank Cervelli's done some work there's been a lot of reporters here who've done a lot of work and this is the basic picture the Coyotes were for all intents and

purposes on the clock after they lost the Tempe vote for the new arena in May of 2023. And I, everybody kind of recognized that if they didn't have something sorted out this year, this hockey year, they were going to move and they were basically on the clock like i had people who told me on the weekend the nhl never looked at this coyote's ownership the same way after they lost the tempe vote and because they kept on selling it as we're gonna win we're gonna win we're gonna win and they lost it they got hammered and it was always different after that. And Marty Walsh, who's the new head of the Players Association, the executive director, he knew, like, number one, I think, for a lot of the players was international hockey.

Number two for a lot of the players was, and especially their agents, was what's happening with Arizona? It's hurting the league. And I know the players asked a lot. The players, whenever they had their meetings with the association or with the Coyotes, they were well prepared. They knew what questions to ask. Either the NHLPA was telling them what to ask

or their agents were telling them questions to ask. The NHLPA was telling them what to ask or their agents were telling them what to ask. And basically, the Players Association, when they did their fall tour with all the different teams, some players told me that they were very confident if this didn't get sorted out by January 1st, the Coyotes were going to move. That's what players told me that they were told. And I think the PA was very vocal and saying their piece. Now, about a month ago, there was a meeting between Batman Daly, Alex Morello, and Javier Gutierrez. And knowing that the auction would not take place until the end of June, and I'm not even sure it had been announced by then, I can't remember, but Bettman had said at the GM meetings that he basically knew when it was going to be.

And they just said in that meeting, it's too long. It's time. And we have to find an alternate plan. They said you will be allowed to pursue another team. You will be allowed to try to win the auction. But Coyotes 1.0 is over. And about two weeks ago, I think the people that really mattered knew that this was very real and that Salt Lake City

was going to be the next home of the Coyotes if they could get the deal done. And so Morello gets a billion dollars and basically as I said last week, the team is being made inactive like there's

still the name there's still the trademarks there he still has the business operations but the hockey side of the equation is going to the nhl and basically it's an expansion team except they get all of the arizona hockey ops to Utah for $1.2 billion. And what's going to happen is that, first of all, Morello's got to win the auction. He's got five years, and he's got to win the auction. And if he does win the auction, 30 days later, he has to make the payment. That's the way it works. And then he's got to get the arena done and basically as was reported if he in five years if he gets it done he pays a billion dollars for the team and one of the questions i asked jeff was wait a second by then

if there is more expansion those teams are going to be more than a billion dollars like is there something that ties it in that if let's say they do expansion to houston and atlanta for argument's sake and those two teams go for two billion dollars a piece. Does Arizona's ride up? Like, does their cost go to $2 billion? And I'm told no. I'm told it's locked in at $1 billion. Also, Morello, while he's not a member of the Board of Governors anymore, there is a non-official role for him i i think they call him an observer but there is something like that for him he doesn't he isn't completely out of the group he's still part of the group and you know the one thing is is that you know someone said to me if he gets the if he gets the arena done he gets the team but someone else said to me look it's not quite that simple there are still benchmarks he

has to hit and also everything is is with the approval of the board of governors and you know that's going to be the big thing here is because I have heard, and I mentioned this on Friday's pod, that a number of the governors are not that happy with this. They understand that Bettman had to make a deal. They had to get it done, but they think Morello's getting away too easy. First of all, he's being made whole plus. And secondly, they think he got too good a deal to come back. So we'll see. And from what I understand, the whole thing with the Roadrunners, the American Hockey League team, was about keeping the footprint in Arizona

from now until the team comes back. I'm glad you mentioned that thing about the Board of Governors and the displeasure of some, many, however we want to describe it. Because I'll tell you, Elliot, we've all been thinking about it as the days have continued and certainly through the weekend and wondered from a lot more different angles how people feel about this. And the one thing that I've been coming back to is the high revenue NHL teams that have been writing revenue sharing checks for years for the Arizona Coyotes, keeping them afloat,

getting the max check every year. And all of a sudden, this happens and the owner walks away with $1 billion. And to your point, if that's locked in and say there's expansion in three to four to five years and it's $2 billion and he's locked in at $1 billion, all I was thinking about is what you just mentioned, how a lot of the members of the Board of Governors here, the ones that have been writing the large checks, Elliot, at the end of the year must be as the kids say hella pissed i've heard it

i know there's people who are not happy but this is what it takes to make it as clean as possible look there's two things they're doing they're staying out of court and they're keep it out of court that's the big one keep it out of court and they're and they're ending this situation you know the other thing too is don't forget jeff 200 million of it is going to the teams so you're gonna get six million a team it'll be interesting to see again what seattle and what i wonder what Seattle and Vegas get as part of this. I honestly don't know because remember, since they came in new, I don't know what the answer is to that. But you get about $6 million a team, so at least that's something.

But you keep it clean. You keep it out of court. Now, there's a second story to this, and that's all the players. Now, there's a second story to this, and that's all the players. I think the Arizona players were not happy with the way this all went down, but I think a lot of other players in the league are. I think the Players Association is, the league is, a lot of the agents are, a lot of the agents are a lot of the teams are this is a better situation people want ryan smith in the league you know the the uncertainty around the arizona

players and staff is is hard i'm not questioning that and it sucks for the hardcore coyotes fans but there's a lot of people who want this guy in the league and they think right now it's better. It just is. And it's a decision that they feel they have to make for the betterment of the NHL. Now, as I said to you the other day, when I was in Vancouver, you could see how angry the team was. And when they went to Edmonton after Vancouver, apparently there were some really harsh conversations. And one in particular on the team plane and where people could hear it.

And I don't think the team was flying at the time. I think they were on the ground or on the tarmac or wherever they were. And it was basically said, you have to come tell us what's going on. You can't leave us hanging here for a week. And a lot of people heard it, and a lot of people appreciated it. And Bill Armstrong flew to Edmonton from the Frozen Four. He saw them on Friday night before the game.

And how about the Coyotes? They beat, after this happens, they beat the Canucks in overtime. They beat the Oilers in overtime. As we record this, they're giving the Flames all they can handle. So it's a really impressive performance by them. Now, you know, I'll say this. I think Bill Armstrong was put in an impossible position here. I think in one hand, he's got a gag order here from Arizona.

On the other hand, I think he has an idea, obviously, of what's happening with Utah, and you're trapped. idea obviously of what's happening with Utah and you're trapped you know like to be honest he probably shouldn't have done it they probably just you know I saw some reports that he didn't know he had no he had that would have been even worse he had to do it you know I if I can just pause for once yeah I had to do that you you have to do it. And I think he also gave them a timeline of what was going to happen. But there's no way you're going to go in there and be able to give ambivalent or unequivocal answers. They're just not going to let that happen to you.

So I just think you're right. He had to go in there. He had to go in there. Someone had to go in there, but there was no way that it was going to end cleanly. No way. He knew he was going into the corner, and he knew he was going to get hit, and somewhere down the road,

I think everybody understands the situation that Bill Armstrong was in, just as you laid out. And I think in a situation like that, Bill Armstrong knows that he's going to walk into a situation and say, well, this is why I'm paid as a general manager is paid. This is what the money's for. I got to go in and take one here. I know that I can't say everything that I want to say,

and these are only the things that I'm allowed to say. And I know that no one's going to buy it, and I know that i can't say everything that i want to say and these are only the things that i'm allowed to say and i know that no one's going to buy it and i know that everyone's going to need more but what's worse is being an absentee landlord and not being available that's how i looked at it i'm with you about a million percent on bill armstrong now the other thing here too is that we're all trying to figure out, like, is Utah going to make any changes? And I was told and I said on Saturday night that the whatever they're going to call themselves, they value continuity. And that says to me that they want to keep as much of it together. But I got a call onay from someone who said to me

don't be surprised if they add and this person said to me what you said on saturday night was true they they they do they do value continuity and they want people there who know this group and know the players but they may add and this was a person who's not connected to either utah or arizona this is somebody from another team he said the word is they're going to add so we'll see what all that means i mean look like look, like I had a Coyote fan who wrote me this long DM and she said she's watched them for years. She said the worst thing for her is that she's looking at Dylan Gunther right now and Logan Cooley right now and she's saying, you know what? You know, just as we looked like we were going to have a good young team,

we're going to watch them somewhere else. So everyone is hoping we're going to have a better idea Thursday, Friday. By the way, there's one person in NHL circles who whenever he goes away, something major breaks okay i always try to take a vacation before the playoffs with my family so this time we're getting the arizona move i've also had when they canceled going to the 2018 olympics i had to cancel a vacation over that one, move it a day back. So if I ever schedule a vacation now,

something major is happening. And here you are. You've scheduled a vacation with your family and you get to Florida and the first thing you do is a podcast and now you continue to florida and the first thing you do is a podcast and now you continue to monitor arizona yeah i don't know that you're gonna be cashing in any dad of the year checks or hey man it's beautiful down here you're freaking right i'm getting dad of the year checks that part is true i really really have a lot of respect for steph and how tough steph is

steph if you're listening to this bless you do you think she listens to this garbage oh by the way i have to tell you so we flew on Sunday morning. I think everybody on our plane has tickets to leave Panthers on Tuesday night. The number one question I was asked was, do you think Matthews is playing on Tuesday? I got tickets to the game. So if Matthews doesn't play on Tuesday, Keefe may not get out of the building alive. He's going to ruin a lot of vacations if matthews doesn't play yes i'll tell you what one of my favorite one of my favorite things about

saturday and watching that trying to make beliefs to try red wings game was every time matthews was on the, did you see what everybody in the stands were doing? Like every time you got out there, did you see what happened? No, but it just, there's one thing specifically that everybody did. What was it, Jeff? I didn't really notice to be honest. Every, every time Matthews jumped over the boards, when it was like, holy smokes, this guy could get 70 goals. The minute he jumped over the boards when it was like, holy smokes,

this guy could get 70 goals. The minute he jumped over the boards, everybody pulled out their phones. Like when he finally, and I thought it was going to happen. It was happening on Saturday because everybody had their phones and we were going to get flooded with a million different angles of Austin Matthews, 70,

70th goal because Elliot, it was hilarious. Like everywhere I'm looking, like everyone just pulled out their phone all at the same time and everyone is recording him all over the ship there was less like iso cam on Austin Matthews every time he was out there it was freaking hilarious Elliot well I have to say that was one of the best regular season crowds I've seen in Toronto in a while because of that. And Toronto always tends to get a lot of Red Wing fans,

and that was a huge game for them too. So between those two things, I thought that arena was buzzing. It was a fun night. I wish there were more nights like that in the regular season in Toronto. The votes have to be in by Friday for the awards voting this year. We are all going to, like, one of the things I really agree with is the votes are public. I think that's the right thing.

The votes should be public. Me too. We ask other people to be transparent with us, so people should expect that we're transparent with them i'm all for that we are going to get destroyed for our hard votes this year just think of of course right now two of austin matthews nathan mckinnon connor mcdavid artemi panarin and Nikita Kucherov are not going to be Hart Trophy finalists. So we're going to get skinned alive twice. The first time is when they get announced who the finalists are,

and the second time when we find out who the winner is. Yeah. And the third time, actually it's gonna be three times the third time will be when they put out the votes you know i compare it to because i've thought about this a lot and i threw in my notes this week you know if you ask me who my heart trophy um candidate is uh make sure you ask me five minutes later at the same time. Oh yeah. You know what it's like? I remember Brian Burke telling me, maybe he's told you the same thing,

his feelings about whoever runs the department of player safety right now, that's George Peros. And you know, that used to be Berkey's job with the NHL when it was in its very primitive form. When they used to run everything on, on VCRs and they didn't have enough tape,

so they only recorded the last two periods because Berkey would always say, nothing happens in the first period, it's going to be suspendable. So they would just record the last two periods. This was the NHL, folks. Berkey would always say, it's the worst job in the world to have

because every morning you wake up and you know that everybody thinks you're an idiot and in montreal they think you're an idiot in two languages he said it's the worst job to have that's how i feel about our hard votes there is no matter what we put down no matter who we put in it doesn't matter everybody's gonna think we're all idiots that's that's we elliot and we are they're right to think going into our voting that's we have to go into our voting this year thinking everyone's gonna think we're idiots okay and we are like i said we are complete idiots and that's so i have a question for you. Colorado has one more game on the 18th against Edmonton.

Who do you think starts that game? It starts in net? Yeah. Georgiev. You do, eh? I think you have to. I know what you're going for. I it i understand it but he's your guy i was really thinking about i know it's a tough weekend yeah i know it was destroyed now i like

i liked what jared bednar did on saturday they got pounded by Winnipeg. Yep. Pounded. And people said to him, the reporters there were saying, who's your goalie? He goes, tomorrow we're starting Yorgiev. That's our guy. We're starting him. No question. Yep. I like that. Be bold. Be firm. Say your piece.

Stand by your man. Just like Tammy winette then on sunday they're up three nothing after two and they lose in overtime and bednar says you know what you know he's got to make a save i'm not saying it exactly but that's what his answer was he's got to make a save it's never always on the goalies but sometimes you got to make a save this is not the learn to play hockey league this is the national hockey league is yoda do or do not there is no try that's where we are now in the playoffs are about to start so the avalanche if they're playing winnipeg and i think that series is going to start on the 22nd on the monday so you have to play your game one starter in that game you're not you're not giving whoever this is a week until they play and then suddenly they show up in game one. They're getting that game.

Do you think there's any chance he plays a Noonan on Thursday against Edmonton? No. No, because that's too long for the game to live in Georgiev's head. That's too long for Saturday, Sunday to live in Georgiev's head. Again, he's your guy. He goes back in there. He's got rest. He's got a shot at turning things around here for him.

Otherwise, again, the game lives between the ears until game one against the Winnipeg Jets. I throw him in there. Don't you? Like, if you're Jared Bednar, is that not your decision? Jared Bednar has the most information here. He is stuck by this guy all year. And he's played a lot of games.

And it's like the old football joke. Who's the most popular player on your team? The backup quarterback. Right now, well, there's a lot of popular hockey players in Denver, but right now the most popular guy among the fans is the backup goalie. I tend to agree with you. backup goalie. I tend to agree with you.

I think you have to take the, you have to do the final dance with the date you brought to the prom. But from the outside, I'd really be wondering about this right now. I'm with you. I think he starts Georgiev, but... He's your guy. If a Noonan showed up... That's your decision.

I would say, I get it. I get it. Here's the only thing I think. Do you think that Georgiev is the kind of guy who will respond well to having his job taken away from him at this point in the season? Because you've got to be thinking, even if he loses his job, he could get it back. We've seen it twice in the last 20 years.

Cam Ward, Martin Gerber. We saw it with Braden Holtby, Philip Grubauer, 2018. The other thing I'm considering here is, do I think it makes Georgiev better in the long run if we take it away from him right now? Dun dun dun! I think you'll go Georgiev

and obviously you're starting Georgiev in the playoffs. I just don't think that it's a long leash. How about that? That's fair. A couple of more things on the ice from the weekend. Again, another wild weekend. You already mentioned that Detroit-Toronto game.

I think we have to go back to the Norris division. The last time we saw a meaningful game between the Detroit Red Wings and the Toronto Maple Leafs of that magnitude of hockey night in Canada on a Saturday night. And now it's intriguing here, Elliot. So now, once again, we turn to the standings and we turn to things like tiebreakers. And right now, as we record this podcast, the Washington Capitals are in wildcard two with 87 points. The Red Wings also have 87 points. The Philadelphia Flyers also have 87 points.

Washington's played fewer games than Philadelphia, and they have the tiebreak. The regulation wins over the Detroit Red Wings. So the Capitals currently occupy wildcard two. We have the New York Islanders, who lost to the Rangers, albeit in shootout, and they pick up a point in third place in the Metropolitan Division. Any takeaways from this collection of of teams we should consider

the pittsburgh penguins here as well um who lost a tough one but nonetheless they're still banging around here with two games to play and need some help from the out-of-town scoreboard do you have a thought on what we saw in and around those bottom positions in the east well there's no excuse now for the Islanders not to get in. No excuse. Yep. They have to take. At the dash. Hang on.

At the dash 21 goal differential. Oh, I know. There's a few great ones here. Dash 40 for the Capitals. And they're in wild card two with two games remaining. It's freak show, folks. It is. But when I look at all these teams, the one I look at is the Islanders. There's no excuse for them not to make the playoffs.

Yeah. The other one that's really interesting is the Flyers only have one game left. Yep. You want to talk about a team that may pull their goalie in a tie game in regulation? It's the Flyers. There it is. There it is.

Actually, when I was watching Vancouver-Edmonton on Saturday night, if the Oilers had tied that game in regulation, I wanted to see if they were going to pull the goalie to try to catch the Canucks for first place. By the way, let me just say that if Lindholm looks like that and that's the way the Canucks look at center, they're going to be really hard to beat.

That was a great game. That was a really good game Saturday. I wished I would have mentioned that. I really wished I would have mentioned that on Saturday night, but I was too busy staring at myself in the mirror in that pink suit. Oh, my God, did I look sexy? What did Kevin call you, the Easter Bunny? The Easter Bunny. I was too busy staring at myself in the mirror in that pink suit. Oh, my God. Did I look sexy? What did Kevin call you?

The Easter Bunny? The Easter Bunny. Other people call me the Energizer Bunny. I could not. I needed a team of Clydesdales to drag myself away from the mirror that night. But I was looking at Vancouver down the middle with Linholm playing. If he plays as well as he did on Saturday night, they're going to be really hard to beat. But anyway, getting back to that East,

Philly, that's a team that pulls the goaltender in a tie game on Tuesday night. For sure. Because an overtime win does them no good. So to me, Islanders have to get in. Philly needs a regulation win at all costs. Who do you think is the other team that should make it here? That should make it?

Yeah. You know what? Again, it's going to sound like a you know a deep rich insult to the montreal canadians but the detroit burbings have two games against montreal canadians when you used to host this show with the headline of the pod when you used to host the show with bill waters did you not used to refer to montreal as those stinking abs i did it once as a joke with Jimmy and then who was it someone picked it was William Houston picked up who was listening that day and blasted me in the Globe

and Mail oh that's like I'm making a joke with Jim Kosh on no I I've heard you call them those stinking abs and made Dominic and I will take it away that's that that's that's's why you walk into my office here at my home and the first thing you see is an autographed picture of Jean Beliveau. That's how much I hate the Habs. Jean Beliveau, those stinking Habs. No, but Washington has a game against the Boston Bruins, and then they play Philly. Detroit Red Wings have two games against the Montreal Canadiens.

Those are two games that you can win and you should win i look at detroit and say it's right there for them boston's a tough one for washington and again with washington i still don't know how they're doing this and then there's that psycho game against the philadelphia boston can win the division too right so and pittsburgh has a tough one like pittsburgh's at home against nashville and the thing about that one is nashville had a back-to-back last weekend columbus chicago and they rested guys in both games but that's their last game on monday night they're they're gonna have four i don't know when Nashville is starting, but they're going to have a minimum of four days off.

Do you think they're going to sit, guys, when they're not going to play? Oh, because you know what? If they play Vancouver, I don't think Vancouver is starting until next Tuesday. Oh, wow. So for sure you're going to play, guys. And then they play the Islanders.

And you want that game to be meaningful, really meaningful. But I agree with you. I think Detroit, like on strength, the thing that concerns me about Detroit is Lyon, the savior, they think he's ran out of steam. And Reimer was good enough to win, but Huso got hurt on Friday night in Grand Rapids, and I just really got the sense that they don't think they can depend on him.

But Montreal back-to-back, even with Lane Hudson making his debut. Yeah, I love it. The other thing, Jeff, I wanted to mention, I wanted to talk about Vegas for a second. And the big tip by Tomas Herteldle the big comeback by the Vegas Golden Knights against Colorado yeah their uh their power play has been really good since Hurdle got there really good looks looks really good so I know there's a lot of people angry about Mark Stone uh really angry about Mark Stone and and didn't notice that, was there? Was there much about that?

I had a couple of people say to me, you need to take a stand. And look, you want to know what my stand is? Here's my stance. It's a legitimate injury. I didn't know the timeline. But the one thing I did say from the beginning was, if he shows up for game one of the playoffs, it's going to be a fiasco. And if you go back to last year, the timeline of when he returned

is the exact same as it is now when he showed up. And on Friday, he was cleared to practice, not to play, but the timeline's the same. As far as I'm concerned, everybody out there who has an opinion, whether you like it or you hate it, it doesn't matter. The only people who can change it now are the teams and the league and the players

in the next CBA everybody has their opinion everybody can decide whether they think this is right or wrong it doesn't matter anymore everybody knows this happens it happened with the Lightning. It happened with the Blackhawks. It happened with the Golden Knights.

If you want to change it, you can change it in the next CBA. And we're all going to have our answer. Does anybody want to change it? Does anybody want to say if you don't play game 82, you got to miss a round? Does anybody want to say if you put all your players who are dressed in the playoffs, the number has to be under the cap, fine.

But if it doesn't change in two years, then we're all good with it and we gotta stop complaining mark stone plays game one you can do two things nothing in like it just to elliot's point nothing's gonna change yeah i think there's a bigger story here though what's that there's a bigger story here everyone's getting distracted by being outraged about the mark stone situation to me the big story is when's Alex Petrangelo coming back? I have heard, because that's what I was looking into too, I have heard that that's not long-term. I hope not.

No, I don't believe that is. Because I look up and down that roster. And listen, you know my bias, how much I love Alex Petrangelo. Yeah, I love him too. I don't believe that's long term. Well, I hope you're right. And I'm sure so many Vegas fans hope that you're right as well. Yeah.

Because as the days go on here, I'm looking at Vegas and I'm like, anything happening here? I know everyone's being outraged on twitter mark stone's name is trending um good luck winning the stanley cup without alex petrangelo yeah i was not a good player because believe me that you know what someone someone made a good point to me that the less the less information there is, the more that gets speculated. And, you know, I worked at it. I heard some of the speculation. And all someone would say to me was, it's not long term.

I think he's expected to play. Good. Because what we want for at least the first round, knowing we're not going to get it in the second and third, we're not going to get it in the Stanley Cup final, you want everybody as healthy as possible for that first round, which is always the absolute best hockey. So much fun.

Okay, a couple of things here. Debut of Frank Nazar for the chicago blackhawks way to send a message way to welcome yourself to the nhl and now we also find out that cutter goche has signed an entry-level contract with the anaheim ducks he will play for them on game 82 elliott your thoughts on uh bothter Gauthier and Frank Nazar? Not surprised at all about Gauthier. I think the Ducks knew this this year, that when they traded for him, he was going to come out at the end of this season.

Never was I worried about him because, as I've said for a while now, since it happened, I think one of the issues was the Flyers did not want to bring him into the NHL last year because of how ugly their situation was. So not surprised in the least that Cutter Gauthier wants to start the clock. What's he going to do this year that he couldn't do last year? Start the clock. So not surprised in the least. By the way, Jeff, you know what I've noticed about Cutter Goche

after he signed with the Ducks? A lot of Philadelphia Flyers fans don't like him. Well, no, that they've forgiven him. I think they've moved on. Oh. Well, the one thing we know about Philadelphia Flyadelphia flyers fans elliot really really short short memories do not hang on to things for decades uh they do not hold on to grudges it's a very very forgiving crowd it's a city of brotherly love after all elliot that that first game next Game next year, Anaheim and Philly. I want to be there.

You'll be leading the boos. I want to be there. I really, really want to be at that game. One other thing I'd like to say about Anaheim, you know who's looked good at the end of the season? Trevor Zegers. And what do you think about that? I have theories.

Is he safe and secure in Anaheim? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think they really wanted to give him the opportunity to prove theories he's safe and secure and i don't know i i don't know i don't know you know they i think they really wanted to give him the opportunity to prove that he could do what they were asking like i said you never you always bet on talent don't give up on talent too early one of the things i've wondered is if like I think teams are going to take runs at him this offseason. They're going to see what Anaheim's willing to do.

But he's looked pretty good. And I would, but he's looked pretty good. And I would be curious to see if they would want to give him run with Gauthier at all. Just to see what they look like together. You know who else is good, Elliot, on that team? Who dat? Olin Zellweger.

Yeah, he's a talented guy. Holy smokes. Frank Nazar, I think he should just retire. He scored on his first shot. Hockey's easy. He should have just done the george costanza hey there perfect i can't get any better than this i'm leaving great way to start that was impressive um macklin celebrini i said the other day he was on Team Canada's radar. Someone told me on Sunday they have actually invited him

to play in the World Championships. He has the opportunity to go. So we'll see what he does. We've seen this before, Jonathan Taves. Oh, I think it's a great idea. We've seen. Listen, we saw it last year as well. I'm with you. I think it's a great idea. We've seen. Listen, we saw it last year as well. I'm with you.

I think it's a fantastic idea. We saw it with Adam Fantilli. It's a good idea. Absolutely. I think Luke Tuck, as we record this, he hasn't signed with Montreal, but he's going to. I'm told that one's going to get done. The one that's a little bit interesting I've heard is Rutger McGrory.

And Winnipeg had a dynamite weekend. They beat Dallas 3-0, and they beat Colorado 7-0. And they're going to play the Avalanche, and they're in the driver's seat for home ice advantage because Colorado cannot catch them in the tiebreak. So as long as Winnipeg is equal to or avalanche, they get the home ice advantage. So I was actually talking to another coach of an NCAA team, and he said the challenge right now with McGrory is, do the Jets and the player think he's going to be in the NHL next year?

Because if the answer is yes, then he goes. But if the answer is he needs to go to the American Hockey League first, or he's going to go there and then we'll see, the biggest challenge you're going to have is a player like McGroarty who goes to a place like Michigan where it's a lot of fun to play. The player's going to say, look, if my choice is the NHL or Michigan, I'm going to take the NHL. But if my choice is the AHL or Michigan, I might want to stay in Michigan. And he says that that's one of the things that a lot of teams have to battle with

if you're in a place where they if the kids at school he really enjoys playing he says it happens a lot and so I think that's one of the kinds of like I don't want anyone to mean that that's 100% he's going back or what it is because I was warned don't guess this could go either way but I heard that was one of the things they were kind of working through like where do the Jets and McGrory see himself next year to me it comes down to what's best for his development is he ready to play pro against grown men in the American hockey league or go to go back to Michigan? Like to your point,

great program, great coach, all of it. A lot of fun. Um, but what's best. That's what it comes down. I think that's one of the questions.

Okay. Wrapping up A Block here with a couple of congratulations. Just talking about college hockey. Congratulations to David Carl and the University of Denver Pioneers knocking off Boston College. 2-0 is the final. Shocking a lot of people. Others said never count out Denver. Congratulations there. And also congratulations

to Team Canada. Last year in Brampton at the World Championships, it was all about Hilary Knight. This year in Utica was all about the 22-year-old from Edmonton, Danielle Srdakny, going to Colgate. Congratulations, Team Canada. And a thrilling game. It took overtime. And this one was back and forth and up and down and controversial calls and overtime breakaways. And, you know, here's Marie-Philippe Poulin in all alone and she shoots high. Really thrilling game. Congratulations to Team Canada.

They claim this year's edition of the World Championships, Elliot. Which one do you want to do first? Well, let's do the World Championships first. That was a wild game. Crazy game. Drama. If you want drama, that was fantastic. One of the things that makes me kind of smile about that tournament is, is that when the Canada-U.S. goalies, if they do meet each other in the gold medal game, usually their statistics are incredible incredible 0.5 goals against average 998 save percentage and then those shooters take turns just picking them apart 11 goals in the final after those goaltenders had spectacular numbers i mean three on three I mean, three-on-three overtime still makes me crazy. I don't enjoy it, but that's a very small complaint

for how that final was played. Just a great game, Jeff, really entertaining. All you want on a Sunday night when you sit down in front of the TV is entertainment, and that was entertainment. Two players coming out of this one for me uh and i mentioned danielle stradacni who's you know a you know part of the future for team canada um i'll tell you there's a defender on the united states that if you watch this tournament specifically you watch that gold medal game um and you're gonna see her a ton so get used to the name carolyn harvey holy smush plays at

wisconsin holy smoke what a tournament what a game for her fast feet smart player um i was i was real impressed and i don't think i'm in the minority i know it's always a tough one when you hear the other team's anthem as you're standing on the blue line. I get that. But, you know, some key performances as much as, you know, as much as we talk about, you know, the veterans that I mentioned, Hilary Knight and Marie-Philippe Palin was big in this one as well. We're starting to see the beginning of the turnover to the younger players. You know, Sarah Fillier had another big one. Carolyn Harvey, I mentioned on Team USA.

And we should point out as well and make mention of Layla Edwards who is going to be an absolute star she's also a Wisconsin 6'2 forward she's going to be a force for a lot of years so Elliot now we're starting to see the next generation

the next generation starting to take over here it's still going to be a lot of Hillary Knight and Marie-Philippe Poulin, as we're all accustomed to, but we're going to start getting accustomed to a number of different names. So great tournament, wonderful final, and congratulations to Team Canada,

and congratulations to University of Denver, Elliot, the pioneers. So someone said to me that David Carll and he can speak for himself on this that david carl was not going to leave denver until they set the record with 10 national championships they've got 10 now that was the record setter they were previously tied with michigan nine apiece now i texted the person who told me this on sunday i said now that carl has won the 10th for in school history does that mean he's going to go to the nhl and he thought about it and he said to me, teams are going to ask. There's definitely going to be interest.

But he wouldn't be surprised if Carl doesn't find anything he likes. He'll be perfectly happy to wait and try to build on that number. It's like we've won, but he wants to win by more. So he might have the opportunity here to pick and choose a bit. By the way, the goalie there, Matt Davis, who made an incredible save on Ryan Leonard, I found out from someone I went to school with at university, his father is John Davis.

John Davis made the switch from defensive back to defensive end. He's a big guy. At the University of Western Ontario as a defensive back, he won a national championship there in football in 1989 and later moved to defensive end, and they were always good, but they never won a championship again when he was there. This makes me feel really old that the guys that went to university with their kids are now NCAA hockey champions.

Now, he made the big save off Ryan Leonard. I'm curious to see what's going to happen here with Leonard. The rumor was that he was going to go back to school, but this I heard before the playoffs began. But he's ready to play, and the Capitals want him. We'll see what happens here. That's interesting about David Carl because I've always I've often wondered and I think he's only like 250 shy or maybe even

less than that. I've always wondered in the back of my mind Dale Hunter going back to coaching in the NHL. I've always heard that he wants to set the record for most OHL wins ever. Now that's held by Brian Kilray, the great Brian Kilray with 1,194 games. Again, I think Hunter is about 250 shy, somewhere in there. I've wondered whether, how many times NHL teams have called and he's held on. Well, namely because him and his brother Mark own the Londonondon knights but also i wonder in the back of his mind you know we all know how competitive dale hunter is about everything i've always wondered if he won't go until he sets the record anyway congratulations to denver again congratulations uh to team canada uh montana's thought line is about to feature a lot of questions about Arizona.

Be back in a moment. Listen to the 32 Thoughts podcast ad-free on Amazon Music, included with Prime. Okay, Elliot, time now for the Montana's Thought Line, Montana's Barbecue and Bar, Canada's home for barbecue. Try the ribs. Try the ribs. You got to try the ribs.

Oh, you hum it all day. 32thoughts at sportsnet.ca. 1-833-311-3232. You got to try and live Third, Winnipeg. Hey, Jelly Dom. Love the pod with all the talk of relocation and expansion. Is there any talk that the NHL could give some cities their history back? Salt Lake City couldn't care less about the franchise records that happened in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is not that concerned about the Atlanta entries in their record book. It is so confusing for fans. And all that they really care about is the history of the teams that they watched and supported. Thanks, fellas. I'm guessing Matt really wants Dale Howarchuk to still be the leading scorer for the Winnipeg Jets, even though that addition of the Jets is ruled by Blake Wheeler.

Yeah, I don't. You know what it's a you know what it's a good question maybe I'll ask it at some point because I've never asked about that before but now you're kind of going through a double relocation yeah that's it you know what it's a good question i'll ask it all right there you go matt and winnipeg no answer other than i'm gonna ask now another one about arizona michael from kingston ontario jelly dom by the way that is jeff elliott and dom if you ever wonder why we say jelly dom here someone wrote in with that one, and it kind of stuck. With moving from Arizona to Salt Lake, what kind of an HRR swing could there be? Arizona draws at most 5,000 fans, and they're on revenue sharing.

Given the success of recent expansion and the new shiny toy for Salt Lake, they should sell out most of the games, and merchandise revenue will be very high. Could this relocation legitimately increase hrr and the salary cap love the pod appointment listening he talked about must watch tv with ron yesterday how about must listen to podcasts does that make any sense anyhow michael and kingston's question well it's it certainly would i i don't know if it would appreciatively move the salary cap a lot. Like, it takes a bit to do that.

But definitely in terms of revenue and ticket sales and overall health of the league, it will make a difference. It will certainly make a change in revenues. Look, Seattle and Vegas are two of the biggest revenue generators in the league. And Utah, even though the building isn't 100% what it's going to be, because they're going to get a new building in a few years, they're very hopeful it's going to be similar. They don't see any reason it'll be any different. So, yes, I think it will have both an immediate effect and a positive effect over time yes 100 do you think they

would qualify for revenue sharing out of the gate i think these things are always worked in right i i do wonder i wondered about that on the weekend i mean to the obvious believe me of all the questions i'm asking about this that's not one of them and secondly if you bring in an expansion team or a relocation and they're immediately qualifying for revenue sharing you probably shouldn't be expanding or relocating there anyway so i would suspect they think it's going to be much better than that. Here's one. Rusty from Richfield, Ohio.

On the Friday pod, you were discussing the Coyotes and the possibility of the team being listed as inactive after the last home game at Mullet Arena and players' contracts being able to be purchased by Ryan Smith in Utah. Are other teams able to purchase any player contracts in this scenario or is it exclusive to Utah? Love the pod.

Good job, everyone. Try the ribs. Fill your washer fluid. Oh, he's really paying attention. Nice. Go Ducks. Rusty, good job. No, this is strictly Arizona to Utah.

Nobody else is eligible to buy the contracts. Good question. I can understand why you asked. Yep. Rowan from St. John's, Newfoundland. Hey, Elliot, Jeff, and Dom. With all the news of the NHL trying to, and maybe already by the time you get this email,

solidifying the Yotes to salt lake it got me thinking what happened to houston it seems like for the longest time they were the favorite city for the move do you think houston is still a likely nhl city whether through expansion or a team moving there this is a really good question for tita tillman for tita said something interesting last week. Did you catch that? What was that? When he was asked about getting an NHL team

and he said just one sentence, we're working on it. Yeah, so this is an interesting one because number one, the question I have here is where are we going as a league? I think we're going to 34. With the Coyotes moving to Utah, I think there's the possibility of a team coming back and one more city.

There's Atlanta. There's Houston. There's Quebec City. There's others. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. there's quebec city there's others i think some people have wondered if they could do 36 i've heard it discussed now i would say this i don't know how seriously it's been discussed i think it's one of those things that you kind of just throw out the idea. Because even if there was the interest, there would still be the debate of,

do you think 36 could actually work? And one of the reasons I think 36 comes up, because if you did it, you'd still have 29 in the U.S., which would be less than all of the other four major sports who all have more than 29 U.S.-based teams. So I think that's why this comes up. So my belief is, Jeff, they've punted it around, just thought about it, because they're meeting with all these cities, and you're stupid if you turn anybody down you should listen because maybe you get like for example when the paletta family

based in burlington when i heard they met with the nhl about bringing a team to that area betman looked at them and said a billion dollars. And they said, okay. And like, I think Bettman thought that he was going to tell them a billion dollars and they were going to say, you're crazy. So what you learn is listen to everybody and see what you can do. I think that's kind of what's going on here, but obviously nobody's committing to 36. I just think they're looking to see what's out there and they're saying, what's the maximum number we can handle? But the other reason I think Fertitta has loosened up a bit on this is I believe there's a second Houston group.

When he was the only game in town in Houston, and he wasn't interested in what the league was going to ask them to pay, I don't think he had to worry about anything. But I don't think he's the only game in town there anymore. And part of it to me is, yes, he's got some interest. As I said before, it has to be a deal that makes sense for both sides, which says to me that he doesn't want to pay what they want him to pay. But also, now he might be trying to protect some turf.

That he's got a competitor, and he doesn't like that. He's a tough businessman. And he knows competition may not be a good thing. Let's finish up with a voicemail. Let's get to Charles. Hey, Jeff and Elliot. Just finished listening to the podcast where you talked about the strangest things that caused the game to be delayed. My name is Charles Delbeck.

I'm living in San Francisco, born and raised in Toronto. I've been a Leaf fan since the mid-60s. and I'm surprised you guys didn't remember back when the Buffalo Sabres were playing and Jim Lorenz was on the team that he killed a bat with his stick that was flying across the rink that delayed the game until they had to remove the bat from the ice. And other things that I remember, too, of course, is the infamous fog on the ice where they would have to delay the game and all the teams would have to come out and skate in circles. Again, in Buffalo, I think they were playing the Bruins in the playoffs and they had to come out and both teams had to skate around the ice to get the fog to lift. Anyway, enjoy the show. Keep up the good work. Yes, very much.

So first of all, Jim Lorenz, really good hockey player, good two-way player. I grew up knowing him more so as an analyst with Ted Darling, the voice of Ted Darling and Jim Lorenz. That was who brought me Buffalo Sabres games. But yes, that was game three of of the 1975 final and the bat wouldn't go away and Lorenz with his stick killed it as it flew around the old odd. And there were a couple of different, I mean, there's been a number of fog games. I mean, in that series, was it game five would have been the fog bowl and if you look at old visuals um if you look at visuals of that um of that game five like you'd swear like i don't know how a goaltender stopped the puck like you could not see from one end of the ice to the other so i'm glad that uh charles

mentioned that one as well um i can recall when the memorial cup was in peterborough this is like 20 years ago uh it was particularly hot, and all the players had to get on the ice with towels. Sean Thornton tells this story about him skating around, skating around the ice, waving a towel, as opposing teams' coaches said to him, ah, you finally got on the ice, Thornton. Ah, you finally got on the ice.

They finally let you out there. But there's been numerous stories with fog on the ice delaying games. i guess the the philadelphia buffalo one elliot would have been the most famous we got a lot of people who pointed out stuff we missed the sabre scoreboard falling oh yeah but that happened in practice yeah but still it caused a game to be rescheduled. That's fair. The shark mascot getting caught in the rafters. Oh, and dangling. Yes. Yeah. There were a lot of you out there did really well,

really well at giving us some ideas. So the next day, or maybe when I went to bed that night, you know what I thought about? Stormy the pig. The debut of the Carolina Hurricanes mascots funny you mentioned mascots because that's the first place that my brain went when they were introducing the pig they had him inside a Zamboni and they had dry ice inside the Zamboni and the guy that was playing Stormy the pig because of the dry ice passed out and on his debut all there were were like two dangling legs and they had to sort of,

you know, rush this guy back to health. But that was a debut of, I would have been in a preseason game to the day, the, the infamous debut of, of stormy, the pig.

Now I'm not sure whether that delayed the game necessarily. I would imagine it must have, but it's funny that, you know, we, we get to mascots here today. Cause that's one of the things that I was thinking about after that last show. Stormy the Pig, the big debut.

Out of the Zamboni, falling, unconscious. And what a great way to end this segment. That's the Montana's Thought Line, Montana's Barbecue and Bar, Canada's home for barbecue. When we return, you will hear our interview with Charlie Lyons, former chairman and CEO of the Colorado Avalanche, one of the many stars in a new documentary called Saving Sackick. It's an offer sheet documentary and it's really good. Hear from Charlie in a moment. Welcome back to 32 Thoughts to Podcast.

Now, you're going to hear from Charlie Lyons here in a couple of seconds. Now, August 7th, 1997, that's a day the colorado avalanche fans know all too well that was the day the new york rangers dropped a 21 million dollar offer sheet on them a 21 million dollar offer sheet for joe sakic that is which included 15 million dollars up front and it took the air out of colorado's sales and we all understand what the rangers were trying to do mark messier had just left the team and signed a contract with the vancouver canucks they still had a window open for stanley cups they just needed to fill the messier hole they saw a vulnerable colorado avalanche team and they saw a star player that they could acquire

now charlie lyons was the chairman and and CEO of the team at the time. And this is an offer sheet, folks. So he had seven days to come up with the money to match, namely the $15 million up front. And he got help from Harrison Ford. Saving Sackick is a wonderful documentary. You can watch it on Prime in Canada starting April 16th, April 17th. You can watch it on ESPN+. Please enjoy our conversation with Charlie Lyons all about that infamous time in Denver. August 7th, the offer sheet and everything that happened next.

Here's Charlie Lyons on 32 Thoughts to the Podcast. Charlie, first of all, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. The documentary is excellent. I was just mentioning off the air with you that it's educational, entertaining, funny at the same time too. I mean, a lot of historical perspective now. You and Chekits can laugh about a lot of things that happened, but let me jump right in and ask you August 7th, 1997, how much did your professional life profoundly change? Oh boy. That's a, you know, it's interesting to look back almost 30 years later, right? And it did change dramatically at that moment for a couple of reasons.

It was a shock. And it came on the heels of a similar thing that happened with the Denver Nuggets losing Dikembe Mutombo to Atlanta. And he was a force in the locker room. He was just an extraordinary gentleman in the community. And then he was the best defensive player in the league. And that he was the best defensive player in the league. And it was a recognition, now looking back at it, that that was the moment in time where I looked in the mirror and realized that our organization was too small

to effectively compete with the evolution of professional sports. And what I mean when I say that is, look, I'm a huge fan of Gary Bettman's and the stability he's brought to the National Hockey League and the growth that he's presided of. Hockey League and the growth that he's presided of. And I mean, if you just look at it today, the game is so much more exciting. The offensive character of the entertainment product has left it that anybody can do anything no matter how much time is left. Expect the unexpected. And he's had a really sound business plan. So the result was you get better owners than you had with my company. And in fact, that's what's happened in Denver. You've got the Kroge, the Waltons with the Broncos, and nobody would ever dream of doing something like this

with that kind of leadership. And because they have the resources to compete. So it was a bittersweet victory, you know, where a lot of things went right, but it was also the moment where you realized it's time to hand the baton to a well-resourced family. The one thing that really stood out to me was, Charlie, in some of these situations where there's been an offer sheet, and as you said in the piece, they're rare, there's usually a courtesy call.

Maybe the agent will call the original team and say, just so you know, this is what we're doing. And in this case, there was nothing like that. The first call you got was from a reporter, correct? That is absolutely correct. Look, it's war, right? And look at what Dave had gone through losing Mark, who I think, you know, there was people would refer to him as the Messiah. He was the greatest leader that anybody had ever seen in sports. And so that's the dynamic. You look at what Madison Square Garden operation was enduring in the coverage and the aftermath of losing him to Vancouver. And so I, and also what was really interesting, and I do, I've never really had the opportunity to do a post-mortem with Pierre about what should have happened or what he would have expected to happen.

But he and Neil Smith were very, very close friends. And I was a very close friend of Dave's. But we're also competitors. So we're partners. But yet everybody wants to win and everybody. But, you know, because they were in the East, it was an easy partnership to have and friendship to have because it wasn't in your face as much as being in your conference. Right. So I'm not surprised at all. As a matter of strategy, what Dave did was right. Blindside you at the close of business on the first day. side you at the close of business on the first day if you want to if you want to have the impact of front-loading an offer and giving your opponent very little time to react that's the perfect way to do it so frankly that's the smart thing what he did now your relationship i'm sure with dave is

fine and there's you know some wonderful moments in this in this documentary that reflect that but you know as you mentioned you know we're colleagues and friends etc but on a scale of one to ten how hot were you when that happened at dave i actually was not hot with him i i mean, I'm just being honest that that I was more focused on trying to fix the challenge because it wasn't like what he had done was outside the CBA. And so he was operating within the rules. So I guess maybe I'm dumb, but I didn't personalize it. I looked at it as, OK, I got a business challenge and let's try and fix it. But I never felt bad about him personally. I did have fun with him afterwards.

I worked for Nelson Rockefeller, who always liked to be referred to. I worked for him when he was vice president, but he wanted to be called governor because he thought being governor in New York was the biggest job, bigger job than being vice president of the United States. But I sent him that picture. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever seen it, where Nelson was being heckled.

He was giving a speech on something and he was being heckled and he gave everybody the finger. So I got it framed and sent it to Dave. And, you know, it was more of a joke than it was real anger. There was no bad feelings about it. I mean, you know, you just didn't want to get beat.

That's all. You know, Charlie, I want to tell you, I was talking to get beat that's all you know charlie i want to tell you i was talking to someone about you today who and he said because i told him about that story in the documentary and he laughed and he said the rumor was that it was actually your finger and that you walked over to a photocopier put your finger down on the glass took a picture of it and sent that with the contract to the rangers i want that story to be true tell me that that story is true i i don't think i think nelson rockefeller was a lot more interesting than just my hand on a copy machine. Okay.

That's, it's too bad because I love the story, but it's still great that you even did that. It sounds great. Yeah, it's urban legend, right? Yes. Now, the one thing also, too, is you say it's business. And in life, we have to remember a lot of things are business but I'm not always convinced people are able to do that you talked about your relationship with Chekits was any of you in the moment mad at Sackick did you consider that a betrayal or wrong or anything like that? Not at all.

Look, I was involved with two professional sports leagues for a decade. And free agency is a sacred right for players. right for players and to maximize their value on the market for, for the benefit of their family. The idea that somehow you look at, at a, a player and say, you shouldn't do that. Who are you kidding?

It's like, it's like, you don't, you don't get the joke. If that's the way you feel you know sometimes in hockey um when one team offers sheets another team somewhere down the road after that the team matches or they get the compensation somewhere down the road the team that got offer sheeted initially will offer sheet the other team as a response as as a as a counter did you ever talk about

yeah trying to do that to the rangers retribution uh i did not have a conversation about of a pierre lacroix so damn smart i'm sure it it entered his mind but he's also smart enough not to waste a bullet on a grudge right um you know it's interesting you know the the conversation you just had with elliot there a second ago about you know uh speaking of grudges did you ever you know begrudge joe sakic for doing this you know i've talked to players who have signed offer sheets elliot has too obviously signed offer sheets it's been matched and the player's gone back and it's the players in the room that have the issue with the player you tried to leave you're not committed you wanted to go you wanted to find another team etc did anything like that

happen with the avalanche i didn't uh detect any of that if anything because joe was such a popular guy and such a decent soul i mean mean, let's not kid ourselves. The guy is as good a human being as there is in professional sports, and he's a superstar. And so I think everybody just looks at it as they're maximizing their market value on behalf of their family. And so it's just kind of understood and implicit. Also, what I have always sensed about that stuff

is that talent roots for talent to increase the salary levels. And that's true in the business that I've been in for the last 30 years in the film and television business is everybody is always rooting for somebody else to lift the watermark for the industry. And you saw that there was a,'s like an arms race. Right. There was a lot of that in the 1990s in motion pictures that sort of topped out at the 20 million dollar level for superstars like Harrison Ford and Denzel Washington. And that that it once it hits the high water mark, it'll start to recede, but it pulls all the boats up, right? Even for the minimums, you know, on a payroll.

So I think the players kind of root for any of their colleagues in free agency on the one hand, but on the other hand, you know, they do reflect on, oh boy, we're going to have a gaping hole. But if anything, they kind of look at ownership and say, how are you going to fix that gaping hole? They don't look at the player and say, hey, you left us. You know, what seems to have vanished is what you saw in the days, for example, the Bulls, right? Where they were making room to navigate within the cat, knowing that they would make it up on the back end.

within the cat knowing that they would make it up on the back end. So they were willing to individual players make concessions to keep their team a world champion. And Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, right? So there was some of that that went on. It feels like there's less and less of that today. Was there ever a time, and the whole documentary goes into Air Force One and the role its financial success played into it, and the negotiations for the Pepsi Center and how a stalemate between the organization and the city basically got broken by the offer sheet because everybody realized it had to work. But was there ever a time during the whole window to sign him?

You were worried, Charlie, that it wouldn't get done. You wouldn't be able to pull it off. A hundred percent that, you know, the idea that you can use a crisis for your benefit. You know, that's just common sense but you don't know you know it it's unclear whether your friends and the various people you're doing business with are gonna jump to your rescue in that bunk and wellington webb is he's a dear friend to this day. He was an extraordinary mayor. He was head of the U.S. Conference of Mayors and was really one of the most influential urban leaders of a generation.

And so he was able to cut through all the crap and say, you know, this isn't going to be good for Denver. You know, we don't want to be the one to lose Babe Ruth. That makes no sense. And and let's get there. We didn't we were just hadling at that point over details. Let's just finish it up and announce it because that that that sends a message. There is an extraordinary media company in Colorado that is at the backbone of pretty much every great media idea in the history of the business, and that's Liberty.

That's Sean Malone. in the history of the business, and that's Liberty. That's Sean Malone. And it was an opportunity because they were very smart about sports, very smart about assets, but to make a small investment in the package of those teams and what was going to be a state-of-the-art, fabulous building in the Pepsi Center, that seemed like a possibility. And then the third was Fox Broadcasting, the Fox cable agreement.

And Fox had been a great partner, and it was just a normal negotiation. But if ever there was a time to finish that, sign it and maybe get some up for upfront resources so you didn't have to go through this again. It was an opportunity to get all three done. But there was also the possibility you get nothing done and be, you know, facing a terrible event. facing a terrible event. How close did it come? Like, was there ever like how close did you guys come to saying we're not going to be able to do this? Very. Very.

Because there was no guarantee up until the last minute. I had some really smart people that I worked with. really smart people that I worked with. Jim Cronin, who was the chief operating officer, Art Aaron, who was a fine attorney, Tim Romaney, who was building the Pepsi Center. And these were, if you followed them, they're the ones that built that icon company that's now owned by Creative Artists,

but they've built some of the greatest facilities as a result of the experience. And Tim had at Kaminsky Park and building the baseball stadium and then building the Pepsi Center. They all figured out that there was a real business for that. So you had really smart people tossing ideas around. And then all of this had to be documented. All of this had to be understood because you don't want to go through this and then find out why you don't handshake you have an agreement it's stuck

what do you think what do you think would have happened to the avalanche yes if you didn't match like those five first rounders like the rangers were gonna you know continue to have this this window of success open i know that you know messier was off to to vancouver and signed that three-year deal but what would have happened to the avalanche these weren't going to be high first round picks they were going to be first round picks but the rangers were going to be good for a while here it wasn't as if these would be first or second overall draft picks what do you think would have happened to the avalanche nothing good would they have survived like if you get the new rink but you don't keep sackick does the team survive well that's you know that's a fair question actually because let's look at the things that we just talked about right yeah there's no deal with liberty right so you you you

you don't have that stability there is no arena and now you've got a team that is going to go into decline because it just does that's what happens. Unless Pierre was a magician and could replace it. And if anybody could have fixed it, Pierre could have. So I put a footnote on it that it's not necessarily the case that it would have been worse because Pierre always had an answer for everything because he was clever and he was good. And with respect to the fox agreement i i don't think it would have made a difference that i still think they would have wanted to carry the teams i don't think it would

have led to the end of the teams but you're still in mcdougall right? You haven't yet. You're still not. A lot of things could have gone bad. And you saw the news. What was the big news today about? Was it Phoenix? Yeah, Arizona. Right. Right.

So, I mean, you're you're kind of on the edge, I guess. So it's it's a fair question you're asking. It's also, you know, it didn't happen, so it's just speculating. But it wouldn't have been anything good, put it that way. The other thing I was curious about is, was there anyone during the process who said, you know what, we should just let Sackett go? Did that ever get mentioned? Oh, many, many folks. We should just let Sackett go. Did that ever get mentioned?

Oh, many, many folks would whisper in the ear, five draft picks. Take the five draft picks. You're going to be better off with the five draft picks. There were people inside the organization that said, what are we doing this for? Why are we going to this effort? That just happens. It's never black and white, right? Because there was something, and you alluded to it before. Years before your situation happened,

there was Scott Stevens, who is a Hall of Famer. He was with the Washington Capitals. The St. Louis Blues offer sheeted him and the Capitals let him go and they took the picks. And the GM at the time, David Poyle, he said if he could do it over again, he would have kept Scott Stevens and not taken the picks. He would have changed what he decided to do and I'm curious because you talked about Mutombo and I remember when the Nuggets became the first number eight seed ever to win a playoff series and Mutombo was a huge part of that so I we always talk about this kind of thing but very clearly you believe if you have a franchise cornerstone player

you do what you have to to keep them correct it it is there there's it's a no-brainer i mean it if the analogy in the film business is, well, you know what? We can get five young promising actors out of Juilliard, but all we got to do is give up Denzel Washington. Really? Yeah. All you got to do is give up Harrison Ford. We got five action stars coming out of Columbia's film school. Yeah.

Really? It's like, who are you kidding? That a star, the intangible, uh, uh, benefits,

the tangible assets that a star brings to an organization. And it's not just what they do on the ice or on the, on the, on the, uh, floor or on the field. It's what they do in the locker room. It's what they do in the locker room it's what they do in the community it's it's a leader is a leader is a leader and he was our leader and so the answer

is you know uh if if you could see what the five draft picks were going to be in advance and where they would go, then maybe, you know, that full visibility, in the absence of that, you keep what's great. Since his playing career, as we all know, Joe Sackick has led the Avalanche to another Stanley Cup. Given what his second career has become, did you see that back then, that one day Joe could make that transition, or was there a feeling that Joe's a hockey player, and when he's done, all he's going to be is a rumor?

That's a really good question. Pierre had his eyes on Joe as a successor. And he was watching him develop. He was watching him mature. And so it was he was constantly looking at our roster because he was always trying to do something that advanced the team and also would be really smart for the organization in the community. And so he was well aware of the deep emotions that everybody had for Joe. And he was also, Pierre was the ultimate leader,

which meant real leaders look to replace themselves. And they look to replace themselves and hand that mantle to somebody that's probably going to do better. And people that aren't leaders, they look to be surrounded by people that are lightweights. Pierre was not afraid to start thinking about who's going to do this better than me, even though I don't think it would be possible to appear was peer was the master, you know, ultimately when all these people were saying, don't do it, don't do it,

don't do it. Take the picks who ultimately said, be quiet. We're keeping Joe Sackick. Oh, it, it, it, I think everybody in my organization hoped that we would come up with a plan to keep them. But there were also people that were dollars and cents and practical. And, you know, that, that, that, that, if that other voice is not in the room that says you have to consider the alternative, you're naive. And so, but I think everybody wanted once we had you know probably four days out right we were four days from the decision because the first three days you're in chaos trying to figure

out okay what what do we do do we want them not want them what are the draft picks what are the alternatives how's it feel uh but then you got to get off your button and figure out what you're doing. And once I made the decision, this is what we're doing. Then everybody just it was, you know, pedal to the metal to get it done. So. So, Charlie, like here's my last question, which is unrelated to Joe Sackick. I am 53 years old. Jeff is 54. My entire life, I have grown up idolizing, among other people, Harrison Ford. Tell me about Harrison Ford. Tell me about him. met him when we were making Air Force One

and he was the biggest movie star in the world he is today a dear friend and I think he is unsurpassed as a human being

yes he's one of the greatest actors of our generation, maybe ever, and has accounted for, I can't imagine what his box office numbers are going to be after he gets done with his latest flurry, you know? And also, he's doing his best work now with Bill Lawrence, you know, where he's playing a shrink that decides to tell

the truth which which which is which is endearing he's in 1923 taylor sheridan's universe um he's uh uh you know finished dial of destiny he's got a big marvel. They're going to create a big Marvel character around him. And he's irrepressible in his energy. He's also one of the greatest pilots. He got me into aviation. He's one of the greatest pilots that has ever lived in terms of what he's done for the industry, what he does for kids in promoting aviation as young eagles. in promoting aviation as young Eagles. He is exactly what he appears to be. He is a great guy. He's a great patriarch of his family. He's funny as all get out. He doesn't take himself seriously.

There is no entourage. It's one of the best people I have ever known in my life. So let me, let me, let me close them with this followup of all the characters that he's played from the early days of you know Han Solo and Colonel Lucas to now which one or is there one that you say is closest to who the real Harrison Ford is. All of them. That's what's amazing. That there's a little bit of him in all of it.

Because that's the truth about a superstar, is the audience wants to spend a couple hours following whatever journey they happen to be on, because through the veneer of it is their character is their humanity and he just appeals to an audience he understands how to talk to his audience i love it charlie you had to say it was president james marshall because for the purposes of this podcast president james Marshall saved Joe Sackick and the Colorado Avalanche. That had to be the answer. You were spot on,

but I don't want, you know, I didn't want to draw attention to our accomplishment when he's done so much great work for some of the greatest directors that have ever lived. There you go.

True. Charlie, it's been a lot of fun. Success with the P, with the documentary. It's fantastic. I hope everybody gets a chance to see it. Thanks so much for doing this. We really appreciate your time. A lot of fun with you guys.

Thanks so much. Really want to thank Charlie Lyons for stopping by the program. Want to thank the NHL for helping to make him available to us. And again, that documentary is really good. I encourage all of you to watch it. It's a very interesting time, a real heavyweight moment in the history of the NHL. August 7th, 1997, the Rangers offer sheet trying to... Is steal too harsh a term when we talk about offer sheets?

They are legal in the CBA after all. The Rangers tried to relieve, oh, that's a good word, relieve the Colorado Avalanche of one Joe Sackett. You can watch it on Prime in Canada, April 16th, April 17th. You can watch it on ESPN+. And that will wrap up. thanks for joining us once again on behalf of Dom Schramatti and Elliot Friedman I'm Jeff Merrick thanks for listening back again with you Friday morning have a great week Thank you.