32 Thoughts: The Podcast - Peeling Back the Layers

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Veteran referee Tim Peel “no longer will be working NHL games now or in the future” according to the NHL after his hot mic incident. Jeff and Elliotte discuss how quickly the league made their decision (00:00), if the punishment was too harsh, the impact the incident could have on the league’s business model as […]

great chance great chance soros makes the save on the other side but nashville playing some tic-tac-toe and grice makes up big save i am rolling now 12 42 to go in the second dog he's rolling coming down in three two and it wasn't much but i wanted to get a penalty against nashville early in elliott there's a lot of questions coming off the Tim Peel situation. There's the game management versus just call the rule book. And many that want to engage in that conversation say that, well, that's kind of like the lion saying to the antelope, hey, meet me halfway. There are others that say this talks to the idea... What does that even mean? It means that it favors one side, and one side is going to devour the other, regardless of whether it's halfway or you go all the way.

Oh, my God. What a tortured analogy. Well, I'm just trying to get your attention here to begin the podcast. One of the other questions is, you know, how do you want the game to be officiated? How do you want the game to be called? There's a lot of different angles and layers

to this entire situation. We all know the story by now, the situation in the Detroit-Nashville game, what happened with the hot mic, what happened with Tim Peel subsequent, what happened with the NHL shutting him down, but not firing him. The remainder of the season, he will miss his final game. I want to shelf some of the stuff about wagering until a little bit later on, but on initial blush, what to you are the big issues involved around the Tim Peel situation? You know, obviously the way games are called is a big deal. It's become the big part of the debate. For me, it's tough to take the wagering thing out of it because

when I try to reach out to as many officials past and present as I could, Jeff, a lot of them said they think it was a business decision first and foremost. I think the thing that surprised me the most was how quick the decision was made. You know, Jeff, we're used to the NHL saying, you know, we're going to take our time, we're going to think about it, we're going to weigh all the evidence, and we'll let you know when we've reached a decision. How often does the

nhl ever do something like this like it happened on tuesday night and the decision was announced at 9 30 on wednesday morning like how often does that happen in the national hockey league seldom we hear a lot about investigations and it's going to be a thorough process investigate and interview everybody involved and we'll come to a decision at some point okay so i think there's really two separate conversations here. Number one is the way the game is officiated, and number two, the reason that it was announced so quickly. And I had one really interesting conversation with an official,

and I double-checked it with some other guys to make sure it was accurate, both referee and elsewhere. And they said it was true. And that is in 2007, when the Tim Donaghy scandal happened in the NBA. And I want to say right from the beginning, I do not equate Tim Peel with Tim Donaghy. It's not the same thing. And I'm not accusing him of doing anything untoward in terms of gambling or anything. But if you're not familiar with this scenario,

Tim Donaghy was caught gambling on NBA games and he was fired. NBA official. NBA official. He was fired and he admitted it. And basically what happened was there was this huge crisis of confidence in NBA officiating.

And the NBA painted him as a one rogue official. They said, this is not widespread. This is one official. And you get all sorts of arguments, agree, disagree, whatever. But at that time, the NHL, and I believe the investigation, I shouldn't even call it an investigation I called a conversation was led by Bill Daley the deputy commissioner and he reached out to the NHL officials and the officials association and he said I need to know right now do we have a problem is this also the

case in our league and you know a number of officials who were around then they didn't go specifically into the conversations but they remembered the conversations they said they were very serious the league was very concerned and the officials understood too because it was the appearance of something being done illegally or untoward or now it was in the public domain that officials were fooling around with the game and how serious that is and you the damage it does to your brand and the crisis of consumer confidence and they all talked about that being why they thought the nhl reacted as quickly as it did if you were around at that time and you were,

and the CBA between the league and officials now has things about in it specifically about gambling and what you're allowed to do away. Like apparently you can't even participate in pools and things like that. And you know, that's what that was about. It was about if something like that happens in your league, you know, we can all say, we know there's makeup calls. Like that's, I think Jeff, That's what that was about. It was about if something like that happens in your league, we can all say we know there's make-up calls.

That's, I think, Jeff, what a lot of the reaction was. Everybody knows there's make-up calls in every league. Everybody knows that certain players get the calls or don't get the calls in every league. Everybody knows how every league handles their officiating. But when it's out there and it's admitted to, it's beyond the line that leagues are willing to go. And the NHL saw the damage that the NBA went through with that. And they said, we cannot allow that to happen.

So even though Tim Peel is not anywhere near the same universe as that situation it was always about that and the gambling thing is and this is the other thing too is and I'm still doing some more work on this gambling is going to be a big part of the post-pandemic world people are not going to wager on your games if they think that they're manipulated like that and again there's a difference between and i had this argument with someone today there's a difference between people understanding that there are makeup calls and people hearing that and ultimately what do commissioners do and leagues do first and foremost they protect the shield they protect the brand and that's why i believe as much as everybody talks about officiating i believe this was about protecting

the brand first and foremost but the whole thing does ring a little bit hollow considering everybody understands how this sausage is made. Everybody understands, and you just referenced this, everybody understands that there are makeup calls. Listen, we hear coaches talk about this all the time in post-game press conferences. They had nine power plays. We only had two. What's up with the officials?

DJ Smith this year. Right? I mean, that carries with it the implication that the power play should even up at the end of the game or at least be similar if they're too tilted one way that becomes unfair to me this is all baked in the pie the only thing happened was is someone admitted that this is how it is done even though we all understand this this is not unlike the first time you hear a pro wrestler say it's a cooperative sports like of

course when i throw someone into the ropes they're not going to come running back at me with their hands on their at their side we all understand this like to me the point is we're all lying to ourselves if we're outraged by what we heard from tim peele it's jealousy with a halo is this moral indignation of oh my fainting couch oh an official said he's looking for an even up call. We've all lived with this. The players have lived with this. The fans at every single level of hockey, Elliot, this has been the reality.

The outrage to me is hollow. The outrage to me is phony. You know, what if you don't look at it that way? What if you look at it as like who did a big story on this uh darren revel how many twitter followers does he have two million is he a hockey guy uh no does he carry weight in the gambling world yes he does if you were running the national hockey league what would you think about that i would be concerned about it but not to the point where i'd want to completely shut down someone's career I would understand the reaction right away hold on a second we're doing deals

with these companies and we want to make sure that there's the impression that we are all on the up and up having said all that I don't know that I would have reacted the exact same way to this one to shut down to shut down someone's career that way I don't know that to me is that to me is a line when we all know that this is the way the game is played and this is the way the game is officiated and this is the way that it's always been for every single official this isn't just tim peel pick one pick one everybody calls it this way you know why because that's the way they want the game to be called and that was why i opened up this podcast with the question how do you want the game called i think we're

arguing two different things here i think you're talking about the hockey conversation and i'm talking about the business conversation okay and i think those are two very different conversations let me just say to you i agree agree. I was shocked at the punishment. I honestly thought Jeff, what they were going to say to him was you get one more game. Your last game. Cause he's retiring. You're fine. You get your final game.

And Brian Lewis was on, uh, the writer's block on Monday with, uh, Jeff Blair and Stephen Bryant. And he talked about what a huge punishment that was, that he's not getting the last game. The part that jumps out at me the most, after doing more than a thousand games in the National Hockey League, traditionally, he would have a retirement event. He would do his last games. Hockey players would tap him on the butt cheeks and say, way to go. Thanks, Tim, about the whole bit. And I know that was scheduled. That will now not happen. That to me is the biggest kick to my backside that I could ever think of as an official.

And I agree with that. Like there were some people who said to me, it's no punishment because he was retiring in a month anyway. I disagree. I think it's a serious punishment because A, he doesn't get that game. His family doesn't get that game. And also, now the first thing in a Google search with his name is that. And I think that's very, very severe. So I agree with you. I think it's a very big penalty. I think when you look at it from a business point of view, and business is big now

to pull yourselves out of the pandemic i think they feel they had no choice i don't think this is an officiating issue at all well sorry i shouldn't say that it's an officiating issue at all in terms of the way the game is played but the judgment i don't believe is an officiating of issue at all the judgment in terms of the punishment i agree that there's two issues going on here then. But then if part of this conversation is this is a business issue that the NHL is addressing, outside of shutting down the official, and again, not firing the official,

which carries its own consequences and potential for putting themselves in legal positions, and we all understand how that plays itself out, then where is the change? Where is the indication to the marketplace that we will not conduct business this way? When everybody understands, either hockey followers or non-hockey followers

who are now having conversations about hockey, all understand that this is the way it's done. And to feign outrage when an official says hey i'm looking for a makeup call i'm looking for a 50 50 here i don't know you know i get it like jeff i do i get it let's please our sponsor so that we can both be paid we bow at the altar of our sponsor and we can continue the rest of the conversation because like i said i think this is a business conversation and a hockey conversation. And I think sometimes the hockey people lose sight of the business.

And that's why I'm taking that argument. And which is why people can argue with me that I'm losing sight of the hockey. All right then. So on that, we welcome you to 31 Thoughts, the podcast presented by the GMC Sierra 18. Okay, welcome once again to the podcast, 31 Thoughts. Thanks so much for joining us today. A little bit later on, Jacob Chikrin, defenseman for the Arizona Coyotes, will be aboard.

Look forward to that conversation. Meantime, let's pick up the conversation we just left off a couple of moments ago. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we continue this conversation, I would just like to say, Jeff, do you know what I learned today? What's that? I learned today that you and I are basically pylons in the eyes of our producer, who is a huge part of our program, Amal Delage.

He saves us on a week-to-week basis. But today, I listened for an hour as he explained how useless we are. What? And how important he is. Oh yeah. Where did he do this? What venue? What platform?

Amal was on a podcast and I do have to say this. The interview was actually really good. I enjoyed it. And there were times when he throws out crumbs of compliments to you and I about how we're okay to work with. But I listened to an hour of Amal's importance today on the Media Side of Things podcast hosted by Alex Ferollo out of Australia.

And he's a big fan of the podcast. And Alex, I just wanted to let you know I listened to a full hour of today. And if I didn't have an appreciation before for how great Amal is i certainly do now i will take that out on my next run what are some of the highlights frege you know amal had some really good advice yeah uh for young people and uh there were things about almost journey that i didn't know before i i didn't know about uh his root uh I didn't know that he once,

you host almost a music podcast that you hosted? It was a music show. A music podcast, yes. Okay, so he hosted a music podcast. I didn't know that. You know, maybe kind of like his road and things like that. But it was interesting.

I wanted to promote it. I saw it today in my mentions and I listened to the full hour and i already knew how useless i was but i was reminded several times in this particular interview yeah how much scoring does it seem that he has for the two of us i would say on a scale of one to ten it's about a 14 lies lies that's about right that's about right that's about right i am looking forward uh to listening to this podcast. Thank you very much for the suggestions.

It's a good interview. I have to say, Amal, you did a really nice job. It was good. You gave some really good advice and it was a good interview. All right. So everyone check that out and get advice from the real guru on this podcast. That's our man, Amal Delich. Back to the conversation.

I'm curious, Elliot, from your conversations and your experience for that matter, what's the nature of the relationship now between players and officials? We always hear the old timers talk about how it was chummy and cozy. You could talk to the officials, have a beer with them after at the hotel bar. You know, they would know everyone on a first name basis. They were pretty close. Noah, everyone on a first name basis, they were pretty close. And as the years have gone on, that has become fractured and players seem distant from officials in a lot of ways. What's it like now?

And what's it like in the last couple of days? And maybe the better question is, what's it like during the pandemic? I think this has been a very hard year for the relationship between the on ice officials and the players. Normally, they don't often stay at the same hotels. You know, there's a CBA rule that the players have to stay at a certain level of hotel and the officials always don't stay at the same ones. This year, because of security, they have to stay at the same ones. This year, because of security, they have to stay at the same ones. And there's been a lot of situations where they've mixed. And I don't think it's been easy. First of all, it's been a really challenging year for the players. You can't really do anything, and you're specifically asked to do nothing even if you're

at home basically and so the frustration level is high the stress on mental health is high especially if your team is not doing very well or you're struggling and so now you're dealing with the referees on the ice and you also see them off the ice and sometimes apparently they mix during testing and i just understand i don't know if confrontation is the right word but it's been uncomfortable at times and i think you know a couple of officials have told me that's been a problem and a couple of teams have told me that that's been a problem there were a couple of teams apparently that complained about you know the officials are flying regular flights and so the players are like if we're in a quarantine or a bubble or whatever you want to call it in a special protocol

should that be allowed to happen and then well if you go that way you know are you going to make officials fly on team planes and then you know for example we talk about the appearance of conflict yeah let's just say like the officials were supposed to be in in montreal they fly with the oldest of toronto and edmonton gets a call in tor saying, well, oh, you fed them the lobster. Now look what happens. I think this year, the stress of the overall year has bled into that because they're seeing each other more. The other thing too is I heard from players, you talk about the games are officiated.

The players think, I think, obviously I don't talk to 700 players, but just from a few I've spoken to, they really feel this year that the boarding calls or lack thereof, hits in the numbers, have been a problem. They feel that the referees are really concentrating on the slashing on the hands, which they think is a good call, as much hooking and holding as they can call,

and they're not going to call everything, but they feel the boarding calls are getting missed. I think that can get fixed, but I think the overall, Jeff, amount of time that they run into each other, this incident with Tim Peel is on top of all of that. How did the officials feel about it? I don't think they like it either. I don't think they want to see the players all the time.

I think it's just a stressful, stressful year. And it's sort of the perfect storm for this incident. You know, I'll tell you this. I heard Peel. I heard, you know, obviously I haven't spoken to him. He's not returned texts. I heard he you this. I heard Peel. I heard, you know, obviously I haven't spoken to him. He's not returned texts. I heard he was devastated. You know, I heard he apologized to the Predators right after the game.

I heard he fell on his sword. He took responsibility for it. You know, another official told me that players and fans think officials are biased against their teams all the time. And what this official told me that it really hurt Peel that people would think he was biased against a particular team. Now, are there issues between players and officials at times? Yes. And I'm sure he's had them. I think every official's had them and you have to figure those out but you know I heard he was devastated and didn't like

it out there that people would think that oh I'm prejudiced against Nashville and plus also like we said taking away the last game I heard he was just crushed but I do think the overall relationship between referees and officials and players has been strained this year by all the close contact. And that's what made this issue an even bigger thing that I think the league had to deal with. Just so our listeners have an understanding of what that last game means to officials. When you're a referee like Tim Peel,

in this situation, for your last game, you choose who you work with. You have your family there. You get the handshakes from the players. Even if they have nothing but disdain for you, you still get the, you know, hey, thanks for being out there for us all these years. Without you guys, we couldn't have this game.

As much as we complain, as much as we yell and scream, we couldn't play without you guys. Like that's the thank you at the end of all of that. And that's a huge deal for officials, especially picking the people you work the game with. That's a big one for these guys, isn't it, Elliot? Yep. So what do you think?

You know, I've waxed poetic about this. What do you think? I think that Tim Peel in this situation, you mentioned falling on the sword, diving on the grenade. I think that he was, I mean, obviously caught, but caught saying something that everybody does and everybody understands it. You want to say sacrificial lamb? That's fine. Whatever analogy applies.

I think the penalty is harsh. i think the penalty is harsh i think the penalty is tough i didn't like the way that tim peel was treated like a human pinata on twitter on social media i always have to remind myself in situations like this it's you know it's always noisiest in the shallow end of the pool uh wasn't a big fan of that i find that i'm constantly in this yeah i'm very careful about that too i've been there i understand that yeah i i'm i'm constantly in this tug of war conversation between the idea of game management and calling the rule book and it's really simple just to say, well, there's the rule book, just call it. And even Paul Maurice talking to Dan Murphy on Wednesday night mentioned like. I think we all have to understand there's a whole lot of judgment that goes into this game.

And there is some variability game to game. I mean, I don't know how these guys do it. I think it's the toughest job in the world. This game is so fast and they're under a tremendous amount of pressure. I mean, I got a TV on the bench, so I get to call them out now. 20 years ago, you just yelled at them anyway, right? Everybody understood that. So I don't think there's makeup calls. I think you had an unusual one-off. I think these guys are doing the best they can and it's a real difficult job. A lot of these rules, there's still different interpretations that officials have of the rules. And what is a hook

to one official is not a hook to another official. Everybody sees with different eyes and has different experiences. You know, there was, I'm trying to think of the quote, Edward R. Murrow, great wartime correspondent for CBS, used to talk about how people are prisoners

of their own experiences. He was talking about his reporting. He was saying that, you know, you're a prisoner of your own experience and you can't eliminate a prejudice when you're reporting. All you can do is recognize it. And I think that way about officials as well. Like everyone's going to, there's not going to be any consistency from one official to another official, from one game to another game, because everybody sees things a different way.

And I think we want to pretend that these officials are all robots and everybody sees things a different way and i think we want to pretend that these officials are all robots and everybody sees it like we've talked about this before everything in the world right now everybody wants everything to be binary it's good it's bad it's black it's white like they're the two opposites and that's it then there's no gray area but the gray area is where all of life is really and so when we're talking about something like officiating in hockey, you know, the just call the rule book, the just call the rule book conversation to me just leads to call a penalty on

every single play. Well, that's the thing, Jeff, like, you know me, I like, if I'm going to argue something or say something is stupid,

I want to be able to say, what's the solution? And, okay, if you went through the last 24 hours and you looked at all the various quotes from the coaches and the players and the executives and things like that, do you see a consensus anywhere? No. I really like what Anson said on Wednesday night. To me, Anson Carter comes out and he says,

if you're calling the rule book in the first period call it in the third if you're letting us play in the first let us play in the third like to me that's the most sensible answer but because I go back to 0506 and the way it was called and there were a lot of people who didn't like that I remember Steve Eisner in an interview with Hockey Night in Canada calling it unrealistic. Remember, the Red Wings were basically blown apart over that. They disagreed so much.

Remember, Jeff, the Red Wings, Shanahan played such a huge part of it because with the Shanahan summit, I remember him telling me that if there was a penalty call that Eisenman didn't like it, Eisenman would just say to him, nice call, Shani. It was crazy. Those are two Hall of Fame players, and their positions are so different. It's a hard answer. That's just it.

Nobody agrees. Sit in a room with anybody and try to agree on calls. Good luck. This goes back to you're a prisoner of your own experience that's it every call is going to be different and not everyone sees it the exact same way and i think we all just have to live with that we have to just realize that these are human beings making calls as a fan yeah what do you think is a perfect game for calls? A perfect game for calls. A perfect game for calls to me is, first of all,

the majority of the game is five on five. Okay. I also want to see what both teams can do on the power play. So I want to see three power plays a game. So give me 12 minutes of power play, and I'm happy, and the majority of it, five of five. Now there are some times where you need a release valve call when the game is getting too hot and something goofy is going to happen. Like if it's a blowout game and someone's running around and

being real stupid and the safest thing to do is get them out or find a way to get them out, find a call to get that player out of the game, then you do it. And that's part of game management as well. And that's why all the all-time referees will talk to you about feeling the game out and knowing when something is going to happen. Like even just things like, I can't stand scrums. I always just love what Paul Stewart used to do with scrums. He used to stand back and pull the linesman out

and tell the players, i'm not sending anyone in no fake tough guys here no face washes no pushing and shoving and look at me i'm not sending officials in to break anything up here settle it or stop it that's what i like but as far as what i what i want in a game let me see three power plays per team and the rest of it five on five what about you i would like to see guys like connor mcdavid leon dry sidle sydney crosby the true skill best players in the league and there's more i'm just naming three of them there's a lot of them austin matthews mitch marner quinn hughes get more rope, Nathan McKinnon. And that doesn't mean you can't play them physically.

You can play them physically if you want to. I don't have any problem with that in a playoff series. If you say we are going to take our physical toll out of those guys, as long as they're clean hits, I have no problem with them. But I do think that I would love to see the amount of penalties called against them go up by one a game especially if it's speed through the neutral zone things like that i think you should know that if you're gonna foul a guy like connor mcdavid

it's gonna penalize your team more because you can't cover the guy, right? You're going to have to foul him. It's like the Pistons and Michael Jordan, right? You're going to have to foul him. And they're not going to call everything for the exact reasons you described. But if you said, okay, we now know that maybe Connoravid gets x plus one or x plus two calls against him i think it's good for the game and you know what like i know people will there will people be vomit when they hear me say this but it goes back to our argument from the beginning right i'm not only thinking about the game i'm thinking about the business ramifications we're in a pandemic we need to get out of it when the nba was at its lowest in the early 80s they said we're getting out of it by letting our star players be our star players that's where we

are now we have to get out of it by letting our star players be our star players so if you know the penalty if you know that mckinnon is getting one or two extra calls a game or mcdavid's getting one or two extra calls a game i know that there are people are going to be listening to this who are going to vomit i don't care i don't care there was i think it was last last week there was speaking of conor mcdavid uh remember washington thinking it's a 50 50 and-50 and McDavid didn't get the call. It was a near breakaway and he was interfered with by Rasmus Anderson of the Calgary Flames. And you could make the argument that it might have been a penalty and you could also make the argument that it wasn't.

So in situations like that, are you suggesting then, I think you are, that on a 50-50 call, make it. Yeah. Make it. So if it's a 50 50 call against you know kyle turris on the edmonton owners maybe you don't make it but if it's a 50 50 call against connor mcdavid you make it i wish i could put a camera on some people in national hockey league will listen to me say that and watch them just go to a garbage can and vomit into it but i look at that and i say i don't care yeah i think it's time

your star players drive your revenue give them the benefit of the doubt i was gonna say glenn healy always talked about this and he talked about it with respect to wayne gretzky and the point that heels said he would always talk to players about when he was playing is, Wayne Gretzky is our meal ticket. Everybody, whether you play on the Edmonton Oilers or the New York Rangers. It's like Tiger Woods in golf. This guy's our meal ticket. All of our meal tickets.

The better he is in this game, even if it hurts your team, the better we all are. Think about yourself when you're doing this. I know, speaking of people vomiting right now, people are not going to like hearing that. If you're a Calgary Flames fan, hearing this podcast talk about Conor McDavid like that.

But it's true. Yeah, but the thing is, it could happen to Johnny Goudreau. Yeah. I just think the NBA, their business took off when they said, we're going to let our stars be stars. And I know this is a team game. I know it is. And I understand that in no league, you could argue that in no league do stars make less

of an impact in terms of minutes played than the NHL does. You could make that argument if you want to, especially if it's a forward. Because the best forwards play a forward because the best forwards play a third of the game basically right however i just think coming out of this and to expand your business you have to open the door for your stars a bit more to be transparent my brother-in-law is an official i talk to a lot of officials uh a lot of times so So maybe I'm sort of biased that way. But my initial thought when I saw the punishment for Tim Peel was if I was an official in the NHL on Wednesday night, I would be doing it right by the rule book and not just penalties either.

You know that three foot grace area around the center line, around center ice for dump ins? If it's not perfect, like if it's not on the other side of center if it's a foot and a half before where normally it's like yeah okay i'm not gonna call icing on that i'm calling icing on that and i'm slowing the game right now if you want it called by the rule book like to me that's a big one i don't know we're going pixel by pixel for blue lines and offsides and drag the foot and planes and all that stuff. For that dump in around center, I'm getting right on the line.

And if it's a centimeter before, that's icing. Slow the game right down if you want it by the book. And that's one that no one ever talks about is that center ice dump in. We all kind of like, yeah, close enough. No problem. That's fine. Second base slide, right? Eh, close enough. We're good. We all kind of like, yeah, close enough. No problem. That's fine. Second base slide, right? Eh, close enough.

We're good. We all do that for center. No one seems to have a problem with it. If you want to do by the book, I'm calling that center ice dumping all day long. How do you feel about how the officials behaved on Wednesday? Because they were in a position to really stick it to the NHL. Because I know they weren't thrilled about what happened

with the punishment for Tim Peel. I thought they were very professional. I did. First of all, we were wondering, were they going to wear the mics, right? Yeah. Initially, we were wondering, was it Peel's mic? It was his mic.

And that does not get to air without at least one and potentially two other human errors as part of that. And they wore the mics. Now, I have been looking through the CBA. I don't see anything that says they have to wear the microphones. But it's in the officiating handbook. So I don't have any clarity on whether or not you have to do it. Now, one of the things that their CBA says is like, there's no strike or withholding of services, nor can there

be a league lockout during the agreement. So I don't think you can really do a work to rule either. I got to tell you, there were some calls in the aftermath of the appeal that, you know, stood out to me in Arizona, Colorado's overtime on Tuesday night, there was a penalty in overtime and you could see the look on Rick Talkett's face. He was, it was against Arizona. They won in the shootout and he was like, are you kidding me with this call? And there was one late in Ottawa, Cal calgary a game calgary needed to have they were down to one and nestorov got a penalty with 240 left in regulation you don't see that

all the time you know so there were a couple there that you know you're looking at but other than two calls which could have happened any time you're not looking at anything and saying something untoward happened here so we're looking at this as a small sample size one full night two full nights of games but jeff does it look like to you that anything unusual is going on here no like you have to be professional right you're rep as pissed off as you are and i'm sure they're pissed off you know your on the line. Okay, let's close that part of the conversation. Although this story will continue, I don't think we've had our last talk

about officiating in the NHL. You want to talk about the trade a little bit? Volkoff for Antoine Moran. This is the Tampa-Anaheim deal. What a story that was about the empty netter. I got to give it to you. So you had this on Wednesday. This was great.

So really, I wish everyone could have this experience of watching Elliot get all the particulars on a trade and then watching it happen. But break it down for us. I sat there and watched the whole thing in the green room on Wednesday. Take us through your Wednesday with this trade. I got this tip that Anaheim and Tampa Bay

were working on a deal. I was trying to figure out who it was someone said that uh it's one of the tampa young prospects who needed some room to play and anaheim was a perfect fit for it and then eventually i figured out it was volkov and you're trying to get the return and i heard it was a pick and a prospect and i was specifically told it wasn't a high pick like don't report it's like us because once you say picking a prospect people like a first round pick a second round pick is like all i knew was it was like a later round pick but i couldn't nail down the prospect and all of a sudden it became clear to me why I couldn't nail down the prospect. It's because the Gulls, their American Hockey League team from San Diego,

are playing at the time. So that's when you figure out it's got to be somebody there. And to the Ducks' credit, they're like, we do not want this getting out until we can get that guy off the ice. So then what happens is we find out who the player is and the hilarity of it just from a funny point of view in a crazy time it's a very 2021 story oh yeah tell us about the player uh antoine moran who's a uh a small skilled player from the quebec league uh played akadi bathurst on a really star-laden team noah

dobson memorial cup vagina the whole deal outstanding um jeffrey vial was on that team a really good hard-working squad that just went through uh the entire tournament uh high yeah again high skilled quebec prospect more on that later when we talk about Tampa, but yeah, a real good skilled kid. And so he scores at 19.59, right? An empty netter. They're up four to three and he blasts one from his end of the ice. He's on there to protect the lead from his end of the ice. He hits the empty netter with one second left. Moran to the empty net, shoots and scores. Empty netter with.9 for Moran, and the Gulls will come away with a victory, and they'll extend it to 3-0-0 against the Ontario Reign

as Moran scores his first of the season. So he scores at 19.59, and he skates right off the ice, and they tell him, okay, you've been dealt at Tampa Bay. Like, what a story. I mean, what a story. It goes from a goal to one second later traded. Only this year. You know, I had a great quote from a guy in the

league the other day. He says to me, every freaking day, something crazy happens. And that was just Wednesday night's thing. Yeah. Just another day in 2021. Hope it works out for everyone. Absolutely.

And so from the tampa point of view and i mentioned you know uh antoine moran's you know stand out from the quebec league spoke with someone on wednesday night and i'm like okay so work with me on this one why would tampa want antoine roman like moran like where would this come from? And he said, it's simple. Look at the coaching staff in Syracuse. And it's Benoit Grue, Gilles Bouchard, and Eric Veilleux, like three elite level coaches, like super elite to the point where, you know, I think that, you know, all three of them should be knocking on NHL doors.

And Gilles Bouchard is one of the assistants, you know, may just be the best one of the bunch. He's fantastic. And you look at the kids from the Quebec League that this coaching staff has developed. Matthew Joseph, Alex Baret-Boulet, Yanni Gord. Like Julianne Brisebois is part of the group that identifies these kids.

And then this is the group that develops them. And elite level skilled players from the Quebec League thrive in this situation. So I think that's the hope if you're Tampa. If you didn't have the spot for Volkov and that was obvious, maybe you have another one here

in Antoine Moran. That would be the thinking behind it. So we shall see. But it was really fun watching you break that one down. What wasn't really fun is when you asked me to stand up and go get you a water, by the way, on Wednesday, which was right behind you. Can you go get me a water? So we have this thing where we like to say, with my buddies and I, if we're right next to something like right there yeah we'll say to

the person as far away can you go get me a bag of chips or something like I'd be right next to it and I'd say to my buddy go grab me a bag of chips and so we'd make each other kind of do it even though we were right there so that was a holdover from my younger days I was closer to the water I was like Jeff you will get me a water yeah i'll pick up your dry cleaning on the way over as well frege can i get that for you too uh in canada the quarantine goes from 14 days to seven days and this just breaking before we got on the air to start recording this podcast elliot and i was quietly confident that they were going to get something done here. Now, I don't

think all of the teams agreed. I think some of them did. I think some of them weren't as confident. I mean, the Canadian government, who knows what they're going to do? You know, hey, it's great news for the teams. The quarantine from 14 days to seven, there were some players who were making it very clear they weren't crazy about the quarantine. Now we'll see how they feel, but oh boy, there are going to be some people in Canada who've been living in the States and they have to fly back in and do a 14-day quarantine.

I could see the basketball players and their fans being furious. I could see the Blue Jays and their fans being furious. It is going to be like their reaction to this is really going to be something. It really is. I'm sure, I'm sure the hot, the teams and the NHL are going to be like, ah,

we'll take our abuse and just go ahead with our day. But all man are people going to be mad. So, um, who does this benefit right away? Which teams? Toronto. I know Montreal keeps anger out of it.

And Marc Bergevin again on Thursday morning at his press conference said, we're capped out. We're not doing anything. He's not wrong. They are capped out. It depends on what somebody's willing to do, right? Yep. We'll see.

You know, maybe Edmonton, depending on what they've said, dollar in, dollar out. And you know what? Winnipeg too. Winnipeg was skittish because they went through this once. I think it's good news for the Jets. Really good news for the Jets. Because I do think they're going to add a D. Yeah, a little more palatable to have someone sit out seven days as opposed to 14. I wanted to get your thoughts on the revised

rules for the NHL Draft Lottery. That was a story quickly and then went away because everything else started to pile up, namely the Tim Peel situation. Lottery eligible picks, down from three, now at two. That starts in 2021 this year. So the lowest a last place team can select is now third. And then in 2022, listen, only 11 teams are going to win the lottery or have the chance to win the lottery. You can only jump 10 spots.

You can only, quote unquote, win twice in a five-year span. It seems as if this is centered around four teams, Edmonton and New Jersey with the first overalls, the New York Rangers with their jumps, and the Detroit Red Wings getting screwed. Am I missing anything here? No, I don't think you're missing anything there at all. Now, I'll tell you this. Someone pointed out to me, actually more than one person pointed out to me, what happens if you're 12th worst team in like january what are you doing you're tanking

is what you're doing to try to get into that that spot you can get the first overall pick what do you think you know now you know if you're 12th worst, it's useless, right? Because you can't get the first. Well, it's not useless. You could come in second. Yeah. But now you can't come in first. Yeah. So what are you doing?

Are you throwing your season because you're the 12th worst team? The race to get to 11. Yeah. We should have standings, the playoff standings, the bottom of the lottery standings, and the 11th from the bottom standings. Here's the other question. Did they need to do this is this really something that needed to happen i know a lot of jams made noise about a lot of things and i'm one of our colleagues made you know break you made a lot of noise about this and didn't like some of the the jumps specifically but did they need to do this? You know, lotteries go with odds, right?

Yeah. They've had some real long odds things happen to them. Yeah. Like that New Jersey, Philly, Dallas one, that was crazy town. That was crazy town. Team Placeholder was crazy town. That was a lot of fun though. I'll tell you what I think this makes me think,

because I heard one of the I think this makes me think. Because I heard one of the teams that really pushed was Detroit. Oh, of course. Because they've been getting jobbed. I wonder too if that means Detroit, they think their rebuild is going to take even longer. And they're playing a long game here. See, the way I look at it as what I would try to do with the NHL lottery is make it as fun as possible, not as predictable as possible.

And this is a way to try to manage it and make it more predictable slash fair by traditional NHL standards. But I mean, listen, you talk to me, I'll tell you all 31 soon-to-be-32 teams should be in the lottery because that just makes it flat-out fun. I loved Team Placeholder. How honestly, you remember that night, Elliot, we were on the air. How much did we love Team Placeholder? That was great.

If the lottery is designed to create excitement around your sport, did they need to do this? Not everybody thought it was great. Not everyone, but those are people in the league. Again, what the audience wants, what the fans want versus the league. Not every fan liked that. We just assume that Twitter is like everyone. Twitter is a very small slice of the world.

I think there were a lot of people that didn't like that. You know what one of the most controversial things I think that happened once? I know a lot of people didn't like vegas making the stanley cup final in 2018 they thought it i don't think an expansion team should win that fast and i had no problem with it i loved it i thought it was great for the game but there were a lot of people that didn't feel that way i think sometimes we look at our you talked about edward r Murrow before and our biases affect us. Yeah. You know, Twitter is a curated feed, right?

Yes. We follow the people we want to follow. We follow a lot of people who think like-minded to us. So we say, oh, Twitter feels the same way we do. No, it doesn't. It feels the way we curate it to feel. And I think there were a lot of people who didn't like that placeholder thing. They didn't think it was right.

They didn't think it made the league look good. It all depends on your position in the game, either as a general manager, a commissioner, a team president, an owner, a player, a fan, a broadcaster. Everyone finds value or rejects what other people consider to be value based on their position. And I'll give you an example. You remember the show Making the Cut? Of course.

You know who hated that? Like burning with a passion. Who's that? Scouts. Oh, because they thought it showed you could make the NHL like easily and stuff like that? Well, they felt, a lot of the scouts that I talked to felt that that show carried with it the implication that scouts aren't doing their jobs and that there are good players out there that can play in the NHL.

And I can't tell you how many people were doing victory dances when none of those players made the NHL. Because to them, it was validation that they're actually doing their job. But what it was predicated on was scouts don't get everybody. I understand that point of view. I know what you're saying, but I think there were more people who didn't like that than we realize. The draft, I can take it or leave it. I really can.

I love the lottery. I think it's great for the sport. I think it creates a lot of interest, but I'm not going to throw myself on a grenade for it the only reason i fought it is good berkey hates it so i really love it i do think the i do think the lottery as an idea is good i think that buffalo arizona season is bad for the league and you can't have that i am still curious speaking of lotteries and i don't know maybe someone in chicago uh can tell me what the answer is.

That Sidney Crosby lottery where Pittsburgh ends up winning it. And you can hear the late Bill Wurtz saying, justice, justice, justice. No one's been able to explain to me what he meant. Do you have any idea? I mean, it's clear as a bell. He's saying justice, justice, and the Penguins win. You remember it, right? Yeah, Ron McClane and I used to talk about that. Like, what

the heck was that? Have no idea what it was about. Yeah. No clue. And I haven't talked to anybody who does. Maybe a question for Rocky Wurtz, if we ever get him on the podcast. I can say we're not going to find out from Bill Wurtz. No, sir. Okay, on that, we will step away.

On the other side of the break, you be joined by Jacob Chikrin, defenseman for the Arizona Coyotes. And Jacob, first of all, thanks so much for stopping by the podcast. And there's something I've always wanted to ask you and I've never had a chance to do so. Let me preface this. The first time I ever spoke with you, you probably won't remember this. I think it was Cheswood Arena.

You were playing with JRC in the GTHL. And I came away from that conversation thinking, Jacob Chikrin is either lying to me or fooling me. There's no way that guy is 14 years old. You're 14 or 15 because I like this kid. He looks like he's 22. He talks like he's 22 or maybe even 25. What do you remember from that time? Because I remember watching JRC play and Victor Mete would have been on that team, I think as well. But you were just like, you were like someone in early 20s playing against these teenage kids. What do you remember from that time? That was actually a crazy kind of a start to the year because I actually

originally, you know was gonna play in the USHL that year and for Youngstown and then a bunch of stuff happened and I was literally, you know getting ready to move to Youngstown and then a bunch of stuff happened and I was literally, you know, getting ready to move to Youngstown and then kind of, you know, last minute I found out I wasn't going to be playing there and it was just very last minute. I didn't know where I was going to play, like seasons were literally about to start and I wasn't on a team so I luckily was able to you know move to Toronto my dad was able to work from there and um I was able to go I had

familiarity with the metes already and so they kind of helped initiate the process but it was a great year I really enjoyed you know my time playing in Toronto obviously I'd never I'd played in Michigan and Detroit for Little Caesars but obviously Toronto is a whole different animal and it's just kind of fun to experience that you mentioned playing Little Caesars and that's remarkable because part of the Chikrin story is the flights from Florida to Michigan how many do you figure you made? Oh man, that's a great question. It was literally every single weekend for two years. So it was great.

Those were great memories with my dad. I mean, we really, you know, we had a ball together, being able to just, you know, travel every weekend, go play hockey, be in hotels together, you know, really good bonding and father-son time. So those are memories I'll definitely cherish forever. And really good for, you know, personal growth as well with, you know, discipline and time management with school. I was missing a ton of school. You know, if we had a tournament, I'd miss pretty much Thursday and Friday.

And then if it was, I was just going there for, you know, league games on the weekend or whatnot, I'd just miss Friday. But I was missing a lot of school, you know, league games on the weekend or whatnot, I'd just miss Friday. But I was missing a lot of school, a lot of schoolwork on the planes. Go back and take tests on Monday. And I was always a really good student. I had a, you know, 4.0 GPA, some honors classes, math and science. And, you know, I was just, I was always very disciplined. And that kind of helped me a lot with my, like I said, time management.

Staying on top of things, because my dad always preached school at a young age. He had to retire early because of concussions, and he went back and got his degree. There's a great picture of him with my sister. My sister and I as young kids in his hands, you know, with his degree at FAU there. So, you know, he always preached it, and I, you know, took it serious. at FAU there. So, you know, he always preached it and I, you know, took it serious. I got to tell you, Jacob,

the people who have 4.0 GPAs and are first-run NHL draft picks, I think they're disgusting. I really hate those kind of people. I got to admit, once I got to Sarnia, I kind of started to, I still did good in school. I just wasn't taking, you know,

the honors courses and whatnot. I still, you know, maintained good grades just wasn't taking, you know, the honors courses and whatnot. I still, you know, maintain good grades and everything. But, you know, I had like a woodworking course, which I loved actually. I built a lot of them. Hey, nothing wrong with that. That's a good skill to know. That's a good skill. 100%.

I enjoy it. I made a nice fishing net that I still keep on my boat today. So it's in a big, like a chest we keep at the cottage. And, you know, it was a fun little course. Your dad played 262 games, as you mentioned. You played in the NHL with Philadelphia, the Kings, Pittsburgh, and Edmonton. You know, as it became clear that you were going to have a chance,

you know, did he ever sit you down, give you advice? Like, was he one of those fathers who said, I'll only say anything if I'm asked? Or would he say, Jacob, you've, give you advice? Like, was he one of those fathers who said, I'll only say anything if I'm asked? Or would he say, Jacob, you've got to know this? My dad was, he was great. I mean, he coached me my whole life growing up in Florida. And I think the biggest thing, he just wanted us to have fun. And he knew how skilled the game was getting. He always preached skills and skating. And he always had my teammates and I at a young age playing all positions. Like, you know, in practice, we were getting reps in every position and always working on skills.

I remember he would bring a soccer ball sometimes out to practice. And like, we literally were playing soccer on the ice, just working on our feet and just little things to kind of keep us you know not interested but just to have fun I mean he wanted to be fun going to the rink at a young age and it always was I mean all my buddies that I still have from hockey today they adore my dad I mean he really made the game fun for everybody and I think as I got older I think you know you know, talking with him, I think he kind of recognized, you know, I had a chance when I moved to, or not moved, when I started playing in Detroit. Because I was playing up a year and sometimes up two. I'd play with the major teams sometimes, too. I'd play with the 96s and the 97s as a 98.

And I think, you know, I had really good numbers. And at the time, the HPHL, the league in Detroit, was like some of the best hockey. I mean, like the four or five top teams in the U.S. were all in Detroit. And I was on probably the worst team in Detroit, Caesars. We were never as good as, you know, Belltire, Compuair, Honeybaked. So we were always, you know, battling every night.

And I think I like led the league in goals for defensemen. And that's when he kind of realized, I think, that I had a chance to, you know, really kind of make it to the NHL. And he knew how serious I took the game. And he knew how hard I worked from such a young age. I just always had great work ethic. And I think similar to school where he told me the necessary things, he knew how passionate I was.

He never had to really, you know, yell at me or get me going. I always had that in me. It was more so I was talking hockey. I mean, you know, we'd always go home from the rink. You know, even in Florida, we'd go home from practice. We'd hop in the hot tub and put on a hockey game. And we'd watch hockey after dinner until we fell asleep together. And it's just my sister jokes because she's not a big sports girl, but she's very bright.

And anyways, she jokes every conversation we have. It could be about literally the most random things. It always leads back to hockey. And she always laughs at us and makes fun of us. But that's just kind of the way it's been in our family and I have to give a lot of credit to my dad because he he was never you know a crazy hockey parent where he was you know slamming on the glass and yelling at the kids he he was firm when he had to be and he always preached the only thing you can control is how

hard you work so that was kind of a message I still carry with me today. How much did your dad tell you about, talk to you about injuries? And, you know, he didn't come back after the 94-95 lockout, had a number of concussions. I'm pretty good friends with Mikhail Grabovsky. He lives down the street from me. Our kids play together. And I remember we had a conversation about hockey once and he said, you know, I'm not sure whether I want my son playing hockey because of what I went through and how I had

to deal with concussions and knowing what I had to go through. I don't know if I want to put my son in a sport where that potential exists. What did your dad talk to you about dealing with things, concussions, injuries, et cetera? You know, it wasn't something that he was really worried about I think um you know I did have a concussion at a young age I think I was like uh it was my last year playing in Florida before Detroit and I was playing up two years so I was playing with 96s guys that were probably hit puberty before I had and and I remember just getting my bell

rung and I remember I you know lost my like I blacked out for a second and um I didn't really remember going to the bench and and so that was like luckily that was I think it was actually the last game of the season so I was I was able to take a lot of time off. I went to the Cleveland Clinic who looks after the Panthers. I went to the main Panthers guy. And I remember just taking a lot of time off. And, you know, the rehab and everything for these concussions is always changing. And we just took the necessary time off. And I haven't had any issues since, knock on wood, but with my head.

So, I mean, obviously's the head injuries are scary and it's you know unfortunately part of the sport it's part of you know what we do we're trying to limit it but I don't think my dad ever hesitated to get me into hockey because of it I heard that when you did your interviews at the scouting combine you would go through teams lists and you would memorize the name of scouts so that you could make a good impression that you would kind of know who was going to be in the room. I love stories like that. Like I would want everybody who's ever got to do a job interview to hear that. Is that true that you did that? Yeah. Yeah true I had uh for every team yeah I had like 20 some teams and I just know like I would just yeah just kind of look at uh the management

um just kind of guess who would be in there the management the scouts and um do my best they're remembering I'd kind of look over it before I'd go meet with the teams but yeah that was something that was kind of important to me I I just think it's, you know, just, you know, good manners and shows, you know, maturity. And this is kind of the way I was brought up. So I thought it was important to do that. Now, the second question I had for you was, I heard that at your draft, which was 2016, you wore coy's colors because you knew you were going there. Is that true? No, that's not true.

Obviously, I didn't know. That'd be pretty impressive if I was able to take a guess and guess it bang on. But yeah, I wasn't sure. I remember picking the baby blue suit. Baby blue was kind of my favorite color growing up. So I remember I wanted that color Sioux. And then we were just looking through ties and we were just doing like the normal black or gray or whatever.

And then I saw that maroon one in it. I thought it looked nice with the blue. So we went with the maroon and it just happened to match the coyotes. I'm burning that source. source is gone yeah yeah they let you down there made for a great sounding story though i mean i'm sure you're kind of tempted to run with that one jacob like of course i knew elliot maybe i should have went along with it yeah um now jacob you turn 23 next week so first of all an early happy birthday wish from all of us at at sportsnet thank you but like when i looked at and i said oh my god he's 22 it seems like you've been around forever and you i mean this is your fifth year in the nhl as you talked about you've

had a very interesting hockey life and when you look at you know your your short time in the nhl and your years in junior hockey playing with the sarnia sting what are the biggest things that you remember because you've done a lot in a really short period of time so i'm curious what are the things that really stick with you you know every year going up until through to the end of my first year in Sarnia I think that was just like you know some of the best hockey I've ever played and I think that was really what you know I felt I was getting better every every you know every game even um from you know growing up my whole life up until then. And then from that point, it was a lot of adversity. I had my first big surgery. I had a shoulder surgery after my first

year in Sarnia. And then obviously that following that year, I came back from it was the NHL draft year. I was so, so frustrated. I remember just just being coming back from that shoulder surgery just being so frustrated with myself with how I was playing I just felt like I wasn't 100% I felt like I wasn't feeling the puck well I just was very very hard myself. And I think it obviously was, um, escalated even more just because it was the draft year and there was obviously a lot of talk and whatnot. And ultimately from then on, I battled injuries and I really kind of got put through the ringer. I mean, I, um, had my first year in the NHL. was you know being healthy scratched a little bit and watching and kind of frustrated with that and and then uh i was so ready like i i had a great talk with the

organization after my first year and um trikes basically told me like i was going to have you know a bigger role the following year i was really looking forward They told me I'd be paired with Goosey, Goligoski, and I was so, so excited. I had a great talk on the phone in the summertime, and then I had another injury training that summer. I was doing hill sprints, and there was a pothole in the hill, and I stepped in it, and my leg just hyperextended and tore my meniscus.

So then I remember that was just so tough. That was kind of my next surgery. You know, I had a great mindset to, you know, just go to work and come back better. And I rehabbed all summer in Philly with one of the best guys. You know, Mark Lindsay looked after me. He sent me to the surgeon in Vail. I went to see Dr. LaPrade in Vail. I got a great surgery.

They didn't take anything out. They just, you know, sutured everything up. So I saved my meniscus, which was great. And then went right to Philly, rehabbed there for the entire summer. I was by myself. My parents were there until I could drive again. And then I was literally there by myself in a hotel, just rehabbing twice a day, every day.

I came back. I was playing really well when I came back that year. I was feeling really good. My game was starting to come. And then at the end of that year, I got kind of slew-footed from behind and just on my other leg. And that one hyperextended. Then my ACL tore.

So every time my game was starting to come back, I felt I had a setback and, uh, it was tough. I mean, I was just testament to, I remember when that happened in Calgary. Um, I just kinda, I knew like I broke down right away. I just knew what was, I was going to go through the same thing I just did all summer, another rehab summer. And I remember I had my little time to myself that night. And then the next morning I woke up and I texted Bill and Mark. I said, guys, we got to buckle it in again.

We got the same thing we got to go through again. And I just went, you know, got it done and went to Philly. And same process. And I just never lost hope, never lost doubt in myself. And I always knew I was going to come back and be, be myself again. I just never lost, lost that drive and, and mentality of, you know, sticking with it. And I feel now I'm kind of getting back to that point where I'm, I'm able to just play and not really think about, you know, my injuries and, you know, my body just feels so good.

I had such a good last couple summers of training and working on my game, which I hadn't had in so long. So it's really been fun for me to come to the rink these days and just be able to play and go out and, you know, try to win games. So when you come back from injuries like that, how much does your training change? I know a lot of guys do like, you know, LDOA and, you know, change up the way they work out. Did you change anything when you came back?

Yeah. I mean, kind of naturally you have to. I feel like I've learned so much on that front. I feel like I've done a little bit of everything out there. Literally. I have a lot of knowledge and the off-ice side of the game. I think it I've done a little bit of everything out there, literally. I have a lot of knowledge in the off-ice side of the game. I think it's helped me a lot. You know, you can kind of incorporate a ton of different things into your everyday schedule. You know, last summer, I

was able to get back to doing a little more, a little more lifting and strength training, which I hadn't been able to just because my knees had, you know, arthritis and a little soreness. And, but for sure, I mean, I've tried Aldoa, I've tried, uh, just about, you know, gymnastics and weight training, strength training, uh, field training, Olympic lifts. Like I've done just about everything you can do. And now I'm kind of at the point where I see what works for me and kind of stick with it. mean it's incredible story Jacob it really is um you know when I was mentioning to some teams out west that we were talking to you today the comment I got was he doesn't get enough credit for how good a player he's become. You know, sometimes, you know, people at certain spots, they get missed or not noticed or anything like that. First of all, after everything you've gone through,

how does that make you feel? And two, how close are you to the player that you believe that you can be? I mean, it's definitely rewarding. You know, I know for me, like, I'm not necessarily surprised by it. I know a lot of people are, you know, naturally just because of everything I've gone through. But I never, you know, lost hope in myself or doubt that I was going to be the player I know I can be. I'm at the point now where I knew I was going to get to. I just didn't know when. And obviously with the setbacks, it took a little longer than I wanted it to, but it's very rewarding because I know how much I went through and it would have been very easy to get down on myself and get

frustrated and, you know, take a couple of days to, you know, whatever, miss a couple of days of rehab or training. But I literally didn't get down once, and I didn't miss anything. I always stuck with the process, no matter how hard it got. So that just makes it a little more rewarding to now be at the point where I feel like that's all long gone behind me in my past, and I still have more room to grow. I definitely have not hit my ceiling yet. I do feel like I can really be a top defenseman in this league,

and that's just what I'm working towards. Now, you have 22 points this year. That's 14th among defensemen. You're 11 behind Victor Hedman. Can you catch him? That's good. I don't know. I can't predict the future.

He does have a game in hand. You should know. He does have a game in hand. He does, eh? Well, maybe not then. That's a tough one. That one extra game might catch him. That's pretty good, though, Jacob. That's a good rise. That one extra game might catch you. That's pretty good though, Jacob.

That's a good rise. It's been a big jump for me this year. I hope to continue to take those jumps each year that goes on here. It's exciting for me. I want to end with this. I've always had this fantasy of one day when I retire, just going to Sedona, and vanishing no one ever sees me again no one ever hears me again I'm in Sedona which is a gorgeous place

as I'm sure you well know by now what has the Arizona experience been like for you it's been incredible you know I really love it here growing up in Florida I've obviously been a little spoiled with the nice weather, and it's nice to be in another spot where, you know, you really can't beat the climate here. I would actually take it here over Florida any day with the dry. The dry is nice. The humidity just kills me when I go back home to Florida, but you really can't beat it here during the wintertime.

I bought my first house here, so I feel like it's home now. It's definitely a spot I hope to be for a very, very long time. I could see myself here one day with family, and it's just a great place to live, so I'm very happy here. Well, just so you know, the headline on the podcast is going to be Chickren says Florida sucks, just so you know. Turns his back on the state that raised him. Jacob, this has been a lot of fun.

Thanks so much for stopping by today. Good luck the rest of the way with the coyotes. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it. That is Jacob Chickren of the Arizona Coyotes. Thanks to him for stopping by the podcast. And thanks to the Arizona Coyotes media staff of Rich Nairn and Greg Diller for making that happen.

Elliot, great guys all around. That was a lot of fun catching up with Chikrin. First of all, you always want to find stories that aren't as told. And he's definitely becoming one of the better players in the National Hockey League. And I remember when Arizona signed him and it was a six-year deal at a four and a half cap hit. And as he talked about, it was at a time where he was battling a lot of injuries. It was a risk. And it's a risk that appears to have worked out very well.

He's become one of the league's better defensemen. He doesn't get a lot of attention. So you're happy to try to find some things that are off the beaten path. And we thank him and the comms division as well, as we mentioned from the Arizona Coyotes. One of the things we did on the last podcast we haven't done before, we had a cliffhanger, Elliot's. Tell us what all these players have in common.

Tim Gleason, Ray Tisivanans, Jay Harrison, Pat Maroon, Joseph Malakar, and now Josh Anderson. tell us what all these players have in common tim gleason rate to see venons j harrison pat maroon joseph malikar and now josh anderson i didn't get anyone who dm'd or texted me that got it did you i got one okay and his name is sean coors his at coorsy30. First of all, he asked me, he wasn't sure about one of the names. He didn't recognize Radis Ivanens. But once I did send him the name, took him about 20 minutes, and he texted back or DMed back and said, are they the only players to fight both? Milan Lucic and Zdeno Chara.

And you said that was right. I told Sean that he was the first one to get it. And you know what his response was? What's that? I was expecting something more obscure from Jeff. Come on. I thought there was kind of a tough one. It's tough with trivia right now

because the internet has sort of killed hockey trivia trivia but i just thought that was a funny reaction considering obviously you torture me i guess you obviously torture the listeners congratulations on getting that one though well done well done that's a tough one i mean that is a tough group of people to fight those two guys oh my goodness so well are you kidding absolutely Absolutely. And Darren Ferris, who's Josh Anderson's agent, had a picture framed for Josh's dad, Gary, that he has at his house with Anderson's arms strung out and Shara's arms. I just can't imagine being a parent and seeing, you know,

your son fighting Zdeno Shara. Like the fear and panic that must go through a parent's mind watching that. But there it is. It's an exclusive Club of Six. This is on the heels of what we were talking about on the weekend podcast, where things you want to get in on the show when you're doing television that you don't. That was going to be one of the things that I was going to do on the Saturday. Congratulations for getting that answer right.

As we record this podcast late on Thursday afternoon, some sad news about our friends at 650 in Vancouver. The reality of the business is not often kind. And today, Elliot, it wasn't. No, some changes at 650, our sister station in Vancouver, the radio station. You know, I think that's one of the most amazing things to me about what's going on in Vancouver right now.

There's a lot of people with a lot of local institutional knowledge, like not just on our station, but, you know, on the other station too, the TSN station that was there, you know, between Perry and Don Taylor and Blake Price and Matt Sicaris, those are people who had a huge imprint in the market for a long time. And I'm honestly shocked to see all that. And then add in two people who I know really well, Andrew Walker. Walker is a polarizing guy, but I always admired that Andrew went in there and he said I'm gonna do this the way that I'm gonna do it and this is my way and it's me and that's the way I'm gonna handle it

and I have great admiration for that so many people now bend to social yeah or bend to something else and we all make our choices right yeah and I am really streamlining the amount of time, the amount of things that I look at on social. Andrew was his own man, and I admire him for that. I admire his approach. And, well, people can say he's out, it didn't work. I don't think that's the case in Vancouver. I think it's simply that that whole market

and the whole radio market is kind of collapsing a bit. And I don't think ability necessarily means everything. Certainly some of it is a numbers-based business, but there are some people who are very successful in their markets who've lost their jobs here. So I don't think it's accurate in this particular case. So I just wanted to say that about Andrew and, you know, Sobolski, that's the real tough one for me. James and I, we've been friends for almost 25 years. We're not as close as we used to be because, you know, he's there and I'm here and you grow up and you have your own lives.

But, you know, I remember when James showed up at the score, he wasn't a day one-er but he was there not long after he came in from ottawa and james james is a different guy and you know he was a bit of a crazy guy he he loves to live he loves life he he loved to live it to the fullest he was the guy that introduced me to the underground, which is probably not the greatest thing that ever happened to me. On Queen Street? On King Street, rather? Oh, on King, yeah. James was the first guy who took me there,

and I left a lot of brain cells in that building. And he's just a great person. Yeah. And the toughest thing is that you look at some of the changes they made, and particularly with Mike and Jason who are taking over the morning show, you can see the good in it. You can see why Rodgers would go in that direction, and you always root for the best of the station,

but then you see the people who go out because of it. And I hate to see Perry go. I hate to see Andrew go. I've got a long history with James. And I'll tell you this, like all the people who were at the score with James, you know, a lot of us are here. He's there. We don't see him as much as we used to, but that was a huge part of our lives. And he was a huge part of our lives. And it, uh, it really rips my guts out to see him go. I, I I'm really, I I'm really, really,

really sore to see it. And it's's it's very emotional for me to see that happen to james in particular with you 100 on all three of those gentlemen and to echo what you're saying about james uh to me he's always someone that tries to bring everybody together and case in point he used to organize before he went out to vancouver he used to organize these, was it Monday morning I think we would go out, ice hockey, just shinny games at McCormick Arena in the west end of Toronto. And it would be a combination of people from CBC Sports and Sportsnet and TSN.

And it was James trying to bring everybody together just to play hockey. I think we were on from like 8 to 9 or maybe even 7 to 8. I can't remember what it was. It was pretty early in the morning, but James just wanted to get everybody together. And to me, that is the spirit of James Sapolsky, trying to get everyone together

just to be with each other and have a lot of fun. These gentlemen will all find work, we suspect, in short order. They are all talented that way. And we'll close on a sad note as well. The game lost a giant, Elliot. A car crash taking the life of the great Bob Plager,

number five, numerous seasons in the NHL with the New York Rangers and most notably the St. Louis Blues. Was an original St. Louis Blue. Played with his brothers brothers Bill and Barkley, real tough family. He was a real tough defenseman. And I know a lot of people were thrilled when he finally got his parade, when the St. Louis

Blues won the Stanley Cup, one of the happiest days of his life. Do you have a thought on Bob Plager and the Plager family? Do you have a thought on Bob Plager and the Plager family? Well, I mean, at the Stanley Cup final, everything you need to know is about, A, the outpouring for him, and, B, the fact that the Blues wanted him to be so involved in their Stanley Cup victory. Yes. In the last decade, we saw a lot of teams either end lengthy futility streaks, Chicago,

or finally break through and win for the first time, Los Angeles, Washington, and St. Louis. And the Blues wanted Bob Plager to be at the forefront of their celebration. That is everything you need to know. That is the respect that they had for him. And I also wanted to mention Doug Armstrong. He had a really difficult assignment to release a video statement, and you could tell how emotional it was for him. He did a great job.

But the respect they had for Plager, obviously having him around the Stanley Cup final, that's everything you need to know. Our condolences to the family and friends of the late Bob Plager.