32 Thoughts: The Podcast - Robertson-less in Seattle

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

In this episode of 32 Thoughts, Kyle Bukauskas and Elliotte Friedman begin with Jason Robertson turning down an estimated 15 x 8 contract from the Kraken after Seattle and Dallas agreed to the framework of a trade. They provide the latest on Mason McTavish (12:30), and talk about the St Louis Blues being a power-broker at the draft (15:00). They talk about Toronto, Matthews, and Knies (15:00). Kyle and Elliotte add some clarity to Zach Werenski's future (22:00). Elliotte talks about the noise around Alexander Nikishin (28:00).They react to the Bo Byram trade (32:00). The guys check in with Vancouver, the scuttlebutt around Filip Hronek and Elias Pettersson (42:30). They also talk about the Flames being aggressive in the market (45:00). Elliotte talks about all the drama surrounding Mike Babcock's introduction (47:30). The Final Thought focuses on possible expansion to Texas (50:00).  Kyle and Elliotte welcome Jason Bukala and Sam Cosentino to the podcast for the definitive 32 Thoughts NHL Draft Preview (57:34).  Kyle and Elliotte answer your questions and comments in the Thought Line presented by BetMGM (1:38:14). In the final segment, we are joined by Buffalo Sabres GM Jarmo Jarmo Kekäläinen (1:55:22).   Today we highlight Charlottetown rockers Gizmo and their song Celestial. Check out their music here. Listen to all the 32 Thoughts music here. Email the podcast at [e-mail] or call the Thought Line at 1-833-311-3232 and leave us a voicemail. This podcast was produced and mixed by Cristian Ceniti and hosted by Elliotte Friedman & Kyle Bukauskas. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates

So what's it like driving with Santa's? It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's aggressive. It's, uh, it's a little bit lower to the ground because I'm in my truck. So everything just seems like it's coming at me a lot quicker when I'm with Sammy. I respect it, Sam. I don't believe in Amber. Oh, the color? Most everything is green.

The color or the commentator? The commentator. What about him? The, what is it? The secret voice. What is he? Oh, they, the anonymous. Yeah, being honest.

Welcome to 32 Thoughts, the podcast, presented by your Canadian Toyota dealers and the 2026 Tacoma. It's time to Toyota from Buffalo. Kyle Elliott and Dom, we're all together in person. This doesn't happen too often during the year, so we cherish the moments that do. And it's a great time to all be together. Because when you think of what's happened this week already, I think of this scene from Anchorman after the big fight between all the network. and they're sitting in Burgundy's office and he goes, that escalated quickly.

I mean, that really got out of hand fast. Here we are. We haven't even gotten to draft yet as we record this. You're listening to this, of course, Friday morning, the day of the draft.

And late Thursday night, Dom has freedom to drop this pod late Thursday night. So maybe so our listeners out west. Yeah. Just staying up late are catching this Thursday night. And it was on Thursday night that you reported. Wait a second. Before we get to this,

I have to dedicate. this pot. Sorry. Sorry. I'm violating the Butch of Grocer Rule. Get to the news quick, but I have to shout out three people at the top of this pot right away. So I had a snafu this week around the board of governors meeting in New York City. I had an issue that I had to deal with. Nothing serious, but it's one of those things that you need help to get through. And I needed help from the Canadian consulate in New York City. I would like to thank Grisha. and Melissa, and there was another woman named Jessica, who I believe was the first person I spoke to in the call center,

who put me in touch to them. And this week, those three women, Grisha, Melissa, and Jessica, saved my existence. So I just wanted to say. You said it was not serious. But it's one of those things you need fixed quickly. And I just wanted to say thanks. And I hope that whoever is listening at the Canadian Consulate,

Maybe somebody who's in a position of authority, you should know you have three people there who were outstanding. You know, every week I wonder, who's helping Elliot this week? Who's getting them? Who's keeping them upright? Who's keeping them afloat? Oftentimes it's Steph and Max. Kathy Broder comes to mind and the good people. You and me?

Dom? Well, you for sure. I probably just drag Elliot down more often than not. but now the Canadian consulate, they stepped up this week. Did they ever? Sometimes you're so right, Kyle. There's some days I look at this and I go, how did I get through life today?

There is really no answer. As some of my friends say, for a guy who's so smart, you really are super dumb. That's a great way to start this. There's a lot to get to here. You're going to hear in a little bit from Jason Buchlin, Sam,

Constitino to properly tee up the draft. We got an interview with Yarmou Kekyllina and the thought line, of course, too. But why don't we start with the news that you reported on here on Thursday night? And the Jason Robertson situation, he is about to become an RFA in Dallas. They have not found common ground there. And the opportunity that was given for the Seattle Cracken to talk to Jason Robertson. and as you put approximately $15 million per year, and he turned it down. What?

Yeah, so, like, I haven't spoken any of the particulars yet, but I'm 100% sure on the story. So you just stick to the facts at this point in time. And from what I understand, sometime, either on Wednesday or Thursday, the Dallas Stars and the Seattle Cracken agreed to a trade that would have sent Robertson to the Cracken. I don't know what was all in the trade, but I do know that the seventh overall draft pick

in Friday's draft was one of the, was the key particular, really. I believe at that point, once they agreed to the trade, the Dallas Stars gave Seattle permission to speak to Robertson, and they conveyed the offer. Now, I'm saying approximately 15. That is the one thing that I have not gotten

confirmed, which is what was the exact number. But, you know, initially I had the story written between 14 and 15. Then I had a number of people say to me that they, it was, they thought it was 15. I just said approximately 15 because I'm safe and believing that that's right. And, uh, and, and, and he said no. And, um, you know, I, I think it's just that for whatever reason and I don't want to, look, Jason Robertson at some point in time is going to have to talk about this and he can give the reasons, but I believe it was the destination. I don't think he was turning down $15 million.

I mean, I don't know anybody that would, to be honest, but I think he just made a choice that the destination wasn't what he preferred. So that's why we are where they are. And, you know, I feel terribly for the Kraken. I do. It's you know, it's tough. It doesn't benefit them for this to get out. I'm sure they didn't want this to get out. They took a big run at Panarin three times 14 and a quarter.

They take this big run at Robertson. I liked them trading for Samiskevich. I think he's a good deaf player. McMahon was a good fit for them. But they wanted that big tent pole stud number one forward 40 goal score. They've never had anybody like that. And you can't fault them. They stepped up.

They made a huge financial offer. Like, I think the stars are around 12, maybe 12 and a half. Maybe. I think they might be willing to go there or were willing to go there. But this is significantly ahead what they're willing to do. And obviously, it was a trade that the stars felt was acceptable, including the seventh overall pick. Seattle did everything right here. And it's a kick in the teeth for them and their fans.

And, you know, I do feel. for them because they're trying to do all the right things here. They're trying to go after good players who can make a difference for your franchise. And it really speaks to what we've seen, I mean, drips and drabs over the last couple of years, but really over the last few weeks with this whole players that have the right to do so, really honing in on I would like to go to one place or two place. Like it just, it feels like the blinders have come way in in terms of the scope of what players want to consider in terms of where they would like to be. And for Jason Robinson, clearly that is not Seattle.

Do you see any scenario where he remains in Dallas after all of this? The one thing is, and again, like, I haven't spoken to Jim Nill. I haven't spoken to Jason Botterill. I haven't spoken to Andy Scott, who's the representative for Robertson. So, but the people I did speak to said there's. You know, there's a lot of hard feelings after something like this. Like if you're the stars, you've basically decided you're trading them, right? And if you're the Kraken, you think there's no way he's going to turn down eight times 15.

And now you're sitting here and it's like, well, where do we go from here? Where does everybody go from here? You know, I think Thursday night it was it was very raw. It was very raw. Obviously, I'm not going to tell where I heard this or who I spoke to, but like I reached out to everybody involved here and I could tell by some of the, I'm not going to talk that this is one night where people weren't really that happy to hear from me. So it's a really emotional, emotional night. And I think everybody is shocked. that this didn't happen.

And, you know, one of the other things somebody said to me was, so Seattle right now, Washington, the state of Washington is a no tax date, and that's changing in a couple of years. In 2008, there is going to be a millionaire's tax there. And, you know, someone said to me that one of the things they heard was Seattle was prepared to structure it so that the contract was done in a way where as much money as possible would get done before that tax kicks in. So like super heavy signing bonuses.

Right at the beginning. Crazy. Yeah. If you're going to. So you're thinking there's, and again, I don't know that for sure, but, you know, that's, I think everybody kind of knew that that was on the table, right? And so I just think people are in shock that this got said no to. So, you know, I don't know how Dallas feels.

Like I said, I think, you know, Ranton's their highest contract, eight times 12. I think they wanted to come in there. Either 8 times 12 or 8 times 12 in a bit, maybe a bit more for Robertson, but they weren't going to where Seattle was going. And I don't know, like the other thing too is I'm not sure who else was going to do that either. Like there are some teams out there that said, no, that doesn't work for us.

And, you know, I don't know. And the other thing, too, is that Dallas is a, because it's in a no tax state and it doesn't have this thing coming, like Dallas is 12 or 12 and a half is a significant amount of money more in a tax state. So I think everybody, I think, I think everybody here is kind of wondering, okay, can we get a better idea of what he's looking for? Where does he want to go? and what is a number that works for him in a place that he wants to be in. This one's kind of been thrown back a bit to ground zero. But it's emotional and we'll see how everybody feels on Friday morning. All right.

Is there anything else on that one for now? I don't think so. Like I said, you know, it's tough. like the Robertsons are great to deal with Jason and Nick like totally like you realize you know you have a job to do but there was as I was writing this there were a lot of people like kind of really felt for I like talking to the two of them a lot and I want to see the Seattle and their fans like I thought this would be a really good thing for them I you knew like it's one of those stories like, oh, like, this is not going to be good for a lot of people that you want to see do well.

So it's, I mean, what are you going to do? But some of the reaction was pretty crazy. I suppose you can never criticize them for just being in it for the money. Yeah. Really? So, I mean, Elliot, like that was almost out of nowhere in a sense here on Thursday night. I feel if we tried to go back and recap everything that's happened this week, like the draft will be done and we'll still be recording this podcast. And you guys are mad at me because I held up the pod recording for an hour and a half.

No, no, no. We are not mad. We are not mad. I wish our food got here a little quicker. I was more angry at that than anything. I knew you were working on something important. So that's one thing to keep an eye on. How about as we try to run down the list here, I mean, McTavish, there remains a lot of smoke around there.

So as we record this, and this could change by the time you listen to this, but as we record this, it is Thursday night. It is getting a bit late. We're watching what? The Americans are losing? I miss it. It's 2.1 for Turkey. So it's late at night, later night in the east, but it's still Pacific time.

It's much earlier. I think Pat Verbeek, the GM of the Ducks is deciding between an offer between the St. Louis Blues and the New York Rangers. And I think the Blues, one of the key parts of their offer is the 11th overall pick, and the Rangers, it's a player, I believe. And I don't want to guess the name of the player. I just, I'm not sure and don't ruin anyone. I've already ruined enough lives today.

I don't need to ruin anyone else's. So one of the things I think that's a play here is I don't think the ducks want picks. I think they want someone that can help them now. They are in win now mode. They want someone who can help them now. And so I think that one of the things that Pat, first of all, he thinks he takes his time. So we're on his timetable. He's not on ours. But secondly, I think with this, if I'm right about the St. Louis pick, the 11th overall pick being the key part of their offer, I don't think it was something he necessarily wants to keep. So if he does take the blues offer,

one of the things I think here is that he might be saying, okay, if I have the 11th pick, what can I do with it? So that's part of this. You know, Ottawa, I heard was in this, and I talked that it was believed Ottawa had a lot of interest in Mason McTabbers. There's a lot of ties in there.

He played for Steve Steyos, the American Hockey League. His father works for the organization. But I think that at the end, when it really came down to it, he just felt that the opportunities were better. Verbeek liked what was being offered more from St. Louis and the Rangers. Now, if Brady Kachuk had wanted to go to Anaheim,

we might be talking a little bit differently. Right, of course. Are the Blues and Doug Armstrong, are they kind of seen as one of the power brokers here heading into Friday night at this juncture with four. I think there's a lot of them. I mean, you know, blues, yes, four first rounders. San Jose has two in the top nine and we'll talk about Byram.

They tried to get Byram. I think, well, obviously now, Seattle and Dallas are really big ones. Buffalo, and we're interviewing Yarmou Kekalana, and they've got four and four in 20. You know, the one thing that, you know, I was joking with someone, I said to them today, like, who's up, who's out? Like, are there any more names out there? And he said, it would be better if you just ask me who's not getting traded because there's like 25 players in the league.

And I know you guys are so funny. Like we say, oh, this could be a big summer. And people go on social and say, these idiots say this every year. At last, we're right. We're like the people predicting the housing bubble. At last, we're right. Yes. It's crazy out there.

Yes, exactly. On the whiteboard plus 800%, finally, the big return comes your way. So McTavish, all right, we'll see. Meanwhile, the first pick, as it stands right now, still belongs to the Toronto Maple Leafs. John Chica on Thursday said that even at that point, they know who they're taken, that it's unanimous, and we'll get Jason and Sam's thoughts on that here in a little bit.

But that was an interesting thing for Chai to float out there. And then also when it comes to the futures of Matthew Nyes and Morgan Riley with the team, some cold water. Yeah, he, you know, he did. The Nyes thing didn't surprise me so much because I know that they've basically set a very high bar. And, you know, whatever that was with Montreal at the deadline, they weren't doing that again. The bar is higher. And so they set a really high bar. And unless you hit it, they're not doing it.

And as we've all talked about, in Florida, added Garnet Hathaway on Thursday, like, Nides to me is the kind of guy, unless you have a good reason, I want that guy playing against the Florida Panthers. You need him. The Raleigh one was really interesting because the thing about Chike is he's not afraid to deal. He loves to deal. And the fact that he was out there saying, you know, he might be playing for our team next year, it did catch me by surprise because I've heard they're really not that interesting.

in trading McCabe and OEL. And if they come back with a defense next year and their top four is some combination of McCabe, Ekben-Larsen, Tannov, and Radish, they're going to be fine with that. And so the idea that, so I think what he's saying is that he's not trading people just for the sake of trading people.

And secondly, I think that he doesn't want to have to give sweeteners or incentivize at a large price to do things. Like he'll trade the later pick for radish. That's okay. That's not, but they don't have a lot and they're not giving up whatever they have just to move off someone. I think that's also what he's sending. So my theory about the Maple Leafs is this.

I think they've decided, especially they don't have their next two first rounders. Boston and Philly have them. They have Colorado's 2027, but who knows when that's going to be. I think between that and Matthews having only two years left, they are on a train heading towards, like steam rolling down the track. And they're like, we're going for this the next two years. As much as we can, there is no, we're not handing a high first round pick to the Bruins and or the Flyers. We're just not doing that. And if we, and if we have any chance of

keeping Matthews, we can't rebuild. So I think they're like, they're going towards the cliff and either they're going to hurdle over it, like the bus and speed and land on all four wheels on the other side, or it's going to work. And because I think they feel if this doesn't work and they lose Matthews, they're probably going to have to rebuild anyway, right? So why not? And part of me, and I'm not going to lie to any of you about this, part of me is trying to talk myself into this because it's good for ratings. Like if they decide they're going hard out the next two years, you know, it's better for sports net. But I just think that's what they're doing. Like I, I'm going to be, I think they've decided, why hand two high picks to the Bruins and the fly.

go for it. Try to keep Matthews and go for it. So I think they're going to, like, I think they look at it. Like, if there's something we can do that makes sense and ignites us for the next couple years, they're going to do it. Right. Because this was an opportunity that if they wanted to, the fact that they stumbled into this first overall pick, I mean, they could have, they could have really decided we are going to completely change our whole. They could have torn it down. Totally ripped it down. Hey, San Jose, that number two pick.

What if we, you know. And I'm sure they've asked about it. So they could have. And it could have been honestly really like where we were 10 years ago coming in here to Buffalo and they take Austin Matthews at one and it's a brand new era. If they had maybe even one of these two picks, maybe I think it might be a different conversation. If they had two of these picks, I could see it being a completely different conversation. But to me, it's, A, I think they really do want to keep Matthews. I don't know what the chances are.

And B, and who knows where we're going to be in a year, but also B, I think they really, just the idea of handing those two picks away makes them physically ill. Okay. All right. I can see it. I can see why. And I do believe he's tried some, like, big stuff. I really do. I just don't know what the likelihood of it is happening. All right. So more to come potentially in Toronto. Also officially in person, introducing Jim Hiller as the new head coach of the Leafs Thursday.

Three years we mentioned that is the term. Yes. Thank you. Speaking of feeling physically ill, you would not begrudge Blue Jepard. Jackets fans for feeling a little queasy right now, just not knowing where things are standing between the jackets and Zach Werenski. You reported that they're going to meet after the draft and everyone's going, well, why are you waiting for after the draft to have a conversation about where your

superstar defenseman is at? So what clarity can you provide there? Well, the thing is, like, Don Waddell, he's been around a long time. He's what we call a KG veteran, right? And so when I was tipped off the fact they're going to meet after the draft, I think what he was doing was there's one punter in the Hall of Fame. That's in the NFL Hall of Fame. There's got to be like Dave Cutler in the CFL Hall of Fame.

Louis Pasaglia? Louis Pasaglia, that's a great call too. You know what? It's a Canadian podcast. Let's go with Louis Posaglia. Thank you. So Don Waddell was like Louis Posaglia. He punted.

And so when I heard, and that got back to me that they were going to meet after, I think that was the Blue Jackets way of punting this one. But it also sent up a solar flare. I think teams interpreted that as Columbus is not sure what's going on here. We better call them. So I think all of a sudden teams started calling them. And because, you know, there's something going on here. Like the first got to report that there was an issue was Pierre LeBron.

And Pierre and I are kind of similar. You know, we don't, we don't throw things out there unless we really have a good idea. So when Pierre wrote that, I was like, he knows, he knows something. And so, you know, I saw his press conference on Thursday. And he said, look, some things are best kept behind the scenes. what that says to me is that Columbus believes that there is an issue here, whether it's a trade request or it's an uncertainty, or I'm not committing to extension next year.

It's something like that. And he's working his way through that. I believe he's getting calls on Warnski. I think he's, I don't know if he's fielding offers, but I think at the very least he's finding out what people are willing to do. Like, I got to think there's a bunch of teams. calling and saying, can we do this and then what can we do? The second thing is, I think there's also something going on with Marchenko.

Like it's another, like I heard that name and Waddell, you know, again, he hasn't admitted to it one way or the other, but it's out there. So it's another one of those situations where I think the blue jackets are trying to figure out what exact, the guy needs a contract, what exactly is going on here. And I'll say this, like, Kirol Marchenko, a lot of people don't really know him well. I'll be the first person to admit, like I don't know him that well. A lot of people really like that guy.

Like, there's, like a bunch of people who called me, said to, or a bunch of people I spoke to were like, that guy, scored 30 before, guaranteed 40 goal score over the span of his next contract. People want him. I think they've got a bunch of teams calling him. Now, the one interesting thing was they made a trade.

They traded for Valerie Nchuskin. And, you know, that is a trade you make for three picks. The highest one you give up is a second. That is a trade you make when you're trying to impress your roster. Like Don Weddell is making that deal so we can say to Oranski and you can say to Marchenko, look what we just got here. We're losing some guys, but we're better with this guy who's under team control. think for four more years.

So, and the other thing, too, is I always wonder, do you bring in another Russian player because you're trying to make Marchenko feel more comfortable? And I'm not to say, please don't take this out of context, please don't rhyme with it. I'm not saying Marchenko was uncomfortable or anything like that. But these things are never done in a vacuum. So I'm wondering, does the addition of him for, the Chuskin, for draft picks, does that make them feel any better about where Columbus is and where they're going. Like, to me, it's interesting he made that move.

That, to me, is a move to say to Werenzki and Marchenko, look, we're better today than we were yesterday. Yeah. And when you say, I mean, for years in Washington, it was almost like the reverse where that they already had Ovechkin there and they were not hesitant at all about bringing other Russians in either via draft or trade or free agency because they go, we know we have Alex here. We're confident that if we bring in a fellow countryman,

is they'll be very comfortable there right like was there not anything to that you know what i always think things like that like i i can't tell you how many times over the years that uh particularly if you have like a younger russian teams are like don't just have one make sure they have especially if english is something they're dealing with you know are you're always going to feel more feel more comfortable it's good to break down barriers and it's good to learn about new people but it's also good to have someone there who understands where you're from and who you are. Yeah. I think it's a great hypothesis.

Yeah. I think I, the bottom line, though, is they're getting him because they think he can really help them. For sure. That's the big reason. And I mean,

we saw it and we'll see how much longer, the Ketchen's a member of the hurricanes, but we saw it when he came there, like having Svetnikov, having Kochekov there, you could tell just even when we would go in the room as media. He really liked Chadfield, too, eh? Yes.

Sit together. Him and Chadfield, always sat together, always talking to each other. That was a legit friendship. It looked like between those two guys. I was amazed how far as English came in a year. Like I talked to him one of the days after the skate and was it perfect? No, but like he had no issue carrying a conversation compared to a year previous where it was full translator mode with Svetnikov next to him.

Anyway, you're trying to play hockey and you got that going on. So good thing you mentioned Carolina. Like there's a lot of noise around the Kishin. there's a lot of interest in him. One of the things I've heard is that Carolina prefers a player back for him. I got to think just because it's Carolina, they've got to be looking at Werenski. I think they're definitely looking at Helibuck.

You know, I think the thing is there's, it's going to be interesting because Nikisha needs a new contract. So, you know, I don't know, like, what is he looking for? That's going to be a big one. teams are going to want to know that. The other thing I think is this is that, you know, Carolina's got like obviously a very late first round pick. I think they're very interested in moving that for the right thing.

And the whole Hallibuck thing, as I said earlier this week, I do believe they're serious about them. I don't know who they would like. If they had a choice, Werenski or Helibuck, who they would pick more. But I definitely think they have a shot at Hellowbuck. I heard he's interested in playing for them because I heard some interesting stuff about Hello Buck. That number one, that he wants, like, he really values the next three years.

And he wants a team that he thinks can be consistently good over the next three years. And, you know, Carolina, I think, would be one of them. You know, it was interesting. I mentioned on one of my previous hits. I can't remember if it was the Monday pod or something earlier about how, you know, Florida, Bill Zito, like he's such a killer, man, that you could just see him grinding Winnipeg and saying, you know, just like Brady Kachuk eventually went from four teams to one. If he could get Helibut going four teams to one, then, you know, Zito could grind the jets. But somebody said to me, like, that's not happening.

Look up Kevin Chivaldale's penalty minute totals. He had like a lot of them when he played in Brandon and in the minors before he got hurt. But I think this deal is too important. to the Jets to let that happen. You know, one of the things I got kind of told, it was interesting, and we'll talk about it a bit more in the thought line, is that one of the things I think the Jets said was when Hello Buck asked for the trade, and I think the Jets realized it's time when Hello Buck asked for the trade, that the Jets were kind of like, we got to waive the no trade.

You can't have it both ways. And I heard they pushed back a little bit, like stood up for themselves, and, you know, And Hella Buck, I don't think he was willing. I think he was, well, I wasn't willing to do that. He did try to be a bit more open-minded and say like my goal is like someone who's good the next three years. And like if it is Carolina, they could make a deal for that. You know, I'll say this, like another team I kind of wondered about, but they have a really good young goalie was Anaheim. Right.

Right. You know, they have a really good young goalie, but that was another team. Like, although now, you know, I would have thought that McTavish would have been a key part of that. But I have heard he is willing to consider a team that he thinks has some depth to it where they could make a run more than once. Defending Stanley Cup champions is not a bad place to start.

And by the way, I did have some people say to me that Carolina, they're not sated by one Stan. Stanley Cup. Like Florida's throwing down the gauntlet here and the hurricanes are like, you know, now that, you know, it's the other thing too is it's really interesting. Now that the hurricanes are Stanley Cup champions, I would love to see them play the Panthers again. Yes. Yes. You understand what I'm saying here?

Totally. Now that they believe the old narratives are gone. Yeah. It would be a way different feel. We need that next year. Yes. I don't care what round it's in. Hurricane's Panthers.

Yes. I mean, you're probably looking at the third round. It would be fantastic. Yeah. Round three. Two confident teams now believing in themselves. Let's go. I love it, Friege.

I love it. You want to talk about Buffalo a little bit? Sure. Bull Byram. Yeah. So the Byram thing, they met the agent, Darren Ferris, at the Combine. and Buffalo really wanted to keep him. I really wanted to keep Byerl.

And I heard, so I don't have this confirmed, but I trust the information. I think he was looking for a four-year deal because that would allow him to do another big deal. And in the double digits and significantly into the double digits. And Keckleinen said, I know the reputation of the Ferris wheel. I do not have six tickets. I am not riding. and he started to move him.

And there was a lot, or talking about moving him, there was a lot of interest, a lot. I believe it. And so Chicago obviously was really interested, and we'll talk more about Chicago and they're interested in him in a second.

But there were a lot of teams interested in, but I heard the Rangers were very serious, and I heard that sharks were very serious. And John Boucherose actually said, I think he tweeted out that the shark's offer was nine and 20, and what I heard was that, and the Rangers have the fifth pick, I don't know that I buy that it was in there, but the Rangers were trying.

And I just don't know, but I know they were trying. I think when Kyle Davidson, the Blackhawks had a decision, when they saw Eklund go to Ottawa and the ninth pick came back, they knew what that pick was for. I think that's when he made the call, is that when he saw that pick go to Santa, Jose, he says, if we don't put this pick in there, we're not getting the guy. And that's when they got them. Now, I don't think that Byron will do that with Chicago. I think a four-year deal.

I think it's good. I don't know that it'll be eight, but I don't think it'll be four. And because I think when a team makes that kind of stake in the ground for you, and Byram seems like he legitimately is appreciative of what they're doing, you can't sign a four-year deal. You got to, like I said, I don't think it's going to be eight, but I think it's going to be a lot. We'll see what this all turns out to be.

But the thing that, before we talk about the fourth overall pick, the one thing I want to talk about is Byron himself. So there are as players who I think could not handle being traded for that pick. We've all seen it.

You're in a big trade and you're let you walk in, you're like, oh my God, what did I just step into? This is not for me. That is going to be the last thing that the Blackhawks and the fans are going to have to worry about here. You know Byram's dad. You've met him before.

Really good guy. Bowen Byram is, and he was a player, is just like his dad. He is super confident. He believes in himself. If you heard his interview, like that was no phoniness, the get together he had with the Chicago media on Thursday. He is like, I am ready for this. I want this.

and I'm going to justify this. It's not only about, like, he's played behind Kael McCar, kind of good defenseman. He's played behind Rasmus Delein, kind of good defenseman. This is his team now. It's one of this for years. Yeah, for years. He, like, that is the best

reason that I think that this can work. And if you're looking for a reason for it to work, it's that. Now, it's a, it's a big, it's a risky thing. I think the Blackhawks look at it as we have a ton of picks. We have a ton of prospects.

You know, it's time to get better. They've been out of it for a long time. And this year, as you know, they were hugely disappointed with how early they were out of it. Like, they just, they have to take a step. And you don't take a step until you have like 25 players who have a role and they're ways away from that. But they really feel this. I heard an interesting story about Byron. They could have taken him in his draft year. And there are some people who were, who are still there that kind of wanted them. And when they didn't take him, they took Doc. It's sort of like, you know how I called Jordan Cairo, Moby Cairo for the Capitals that they chased after him for a year? I heard for some people in Chicago, it was like Moby Byron. We didn't get them the

first time, but we will get them at some point. And they have targeted this guy and they love this guy. Now, there's a reason these picks don't get traded. This is the first time in 20 years. There's been a deal like this. One of the reasons I kind of want it to work, Kyle, is that maybe it might happen more in the future. We talk to Yarmal Kicka Line on the interview there's about the draft chart. And there's somebody on a non-involved team here who called me on Thursday. And he said to me, by what he values the number four overall pick and what he believes Byram could do, you could make an argument for this. You absolutely could make an argument for this. There are a lot of defensemen who've been taken around that spot, like Chicago, Cam Barker

third, where it just hasn't worked out. He just says, like, if it works, maybe the whole league starts loosening up on this stuff. If it doesn't, everybody becomes more, even more careful. But he said to me, and this is a purely analytic thinker, he said to me he could make this case,

but he thinks there might be two of 32 general managers right now. And he admitted that if it was him in that seat, he didn't know if he would have the guts to do it. So we'll see. When we sit down with Sam and Jason, we talk about having Stones as a general manager actually being in that seat when it comes to making big decisions too. I was a little bit surprised at how much backlash there was on that trade. I know Chicago gave up a lot, but it's like, it's like they reacted that they had like

traded for me to go play defense for them. I'm like, I think they were a little surprised. I think they were a little surprised. I think there's a lot of, I learned, like, I've watched Creveyor play a little bit. I like them. Yep. And I think there's, and I think there's a, there's a core of Blackhawk fans who really

like crevier too. Plus they extended them last year. So I think that caught them by surprise. I just think, like, there's a couple of things. Number one, this trade never happens. Like, when was the last one? Ruslan Fedetenko for the number four pick? Like, these trades don't happen.

So it's weird. Like I understand it's weird for people. And secondly, I just think there's, I mean, there's also, like a lot of people in this league wouldn't do it. And but I'll tell you who might. And that's the guy who just won the Stanley Cup in Carolina. And part of me is wondering if, because like I said, like there's an analytics guy in the league who said, you can make a case for this. So I'm kind of part of me wonders if you look at some of the choices, Carolina. made and you start to think, okay, is this a decision that the team, we know, like, it's a

copycat league, right? You steal from the best as you should in any business. Part of me thought, is this a Carolina move? But it's just, it's weird. That doesn't happen. Right. I understand what. And then, you know, once it starts everybody, you can't just disagree with someone on the

internet you have to pile drive them to the center of the earth like yeah you get to that point i'm like you know what like i'm i'm really curious about this i don't like i like i was like that guy was saying to me like he could make a case for it and he didn't know if he would have the guts like in the chair to do it like anything else you want to talk about with chicago uh no okay so like the other thing too is like the same thing here like i talk about like being in the chair like steyos okay So I had a lot of people who said that Steyer should have made Brady to chuck wait. I said, that is so easy for you to say he's the guy in the chair. He knows.

Like, I'll tell you, like part of me was like, if it was me, I would have said, give me more teams or I'm not doing it. It's easy thing to say until you're in the chair and that bleep storm is all around you. I like like that story was hours if not a day away from getting out and you lived in Ottawa like what would have been like every day that he held on to him after that story got out such a mess it was bad enough this past year yeah as it kept the the flare-ups kept happening especially post-olympics so you would have had that in the back of your mind yeah going to is going to be worse than today was. Yeah, you know, like, it's like, it's easy, like, this is what we do for a living. We pontificate on stuff. When you're in that chair, it's, it's a lot hotter. It's a hot chair.

Right. I mean, geez, Quinn Hughes in Vancouver this year, is that got going? Like, I mean, even the year previous with J.T. Miller and everything. We've seen recent examples of if you try to wait around and think it might get better, and it doesn't, how ugly it all, it all, it all, can get. Speaking of Vancouver. It's as ugly as a pimple on prom night. Ooh.

And it's prom season, too. Sorry. Anyone? Speaking of Vancouver, Philipronic? Yeah, you know what? I've asked about this and people keep telling me there's nothing there.

You know, I think this. So one of the things that's definitely changed is Patterson there, Elias. And I think there's a lot of things the Canucks are willing to do a lot. Elias, Elias, right? Talking about the forward.

Yes. What did I say? You said Elias. I always get that wrong. Yeah, it's okay. Elias, sorry. That's what we're here for. I think there's a lot of things that the Connox will be willing to do with their

veterans. With EP40, it's similar. This is more simple for me. As I said earlier this week, when Jim Rutherford was the GM there, he wanted a comparable center. He wasn't trading Pedersen without getting a comparable center. I don't think the Canucks feel that way anymore. I think this is, it's not a shot at Rutherford.

I think it's just differing philosophy. If you give them something that can grow and develop with them, whether it's good prospects or good young player or picks, I think they would do that if the player is willing to move. What I've heard about Ronick is, is that, Like, I've heard they've had a conversation with the player. I've heard conversations, they've had conversations with the agent, and there's an understanding that the player who has complete control over the situation would like to stay.

I think, and I don't think, I don't think that, like, this new group going in, the Siddines and Ryan Johnson, I don't think that they want to start off by alienating an important player. Like they're trying to start a new culture there. Now look, like if somebody walked up and said, I'll give you two first rounders and my two best prospects, I think as a general manager, you have a responsibility to look at that if you think those picks and prospects are good enough.

But I think it's important for the Knochs to show that when you're trying to change the way you do business, that you don't actively go out and say, after saying we understand how you feel, you're not actively going out and saying, yeah, we'll trade this guy. I think that's very important to Vancouver here.

So, Kyle, let me just go through my six notebooks here and see what else I have written down. You know, I've heard Calgary and Winnipeg have been two of the teams that talked about that fourth pick with Buffalo.

You know, I think I'm not surprised to hear the Rangers are big in on McTavish because, like I said, I think they took a big run of Byram. I also think they tried to get in on Brady Kachuk, even though they weren't on the list. I really heard they tried to push. The Nemich deal for Calgary felt that's the exact type of move at the exact right time for Craig Conroy, you know? You know what? I like that move for them. They have so, again, it's another team, so many picks and prospects, so many of them that,

why wouldn't you take it? The other thing, too, is you could never have, people were like, Perrex's a righty and that much is a righty. You know, last I heard, you know, having two righties was never a bad thing. Now, Conroy told Eric Francis that Perrettec will start next year on the left side. It's the first time I've ever believed anything Eric Francis said. but because Conroy told him that. But, like, I don't understand.

And the other thing, too, is when you look at what Byron went for, that actually made the netmage price look pretty reasonable. For sure. So what it says to me is that New Jersey is going to take some shots. They're going to do that and they're going to take some shots with what they can do with those picks. But to me, that is the exact kind of, like, the other thing, too, is, you know, Calgary, you're trying to get players who want to stay there, right? Like now, Nemich is going to be looking and saying, hey, I need a fresh start.

And this team believes in me. They're giving me a new chance. And look what they gave up for me. You know, I know that one of the things that I know that concerned about Nemmich is his body language sometimes. And I'll sure they'll work on that with him. But that is the exact kind of gamble at Calgary should be taking. Thank you again, Eric, for the no doubt outing, by the way. Yes.

That was a great. time. Even though Elliot says he doesn't believe anything you say. I do believe we went to no doubt together. You know, I recorded Sunday morning, which was their last song. It was, that was a great rendition. Yes. Beautiful, man.

Great rendition. Gwen still got it. Yeah, fantastic. They all do. Like that, those guys were. Good point. Fantastic. But she was powerful.

You know, Babcock. I've thought a lot about. this this week. You know, as I said to you on the pod, there was a time of my life where I was going through a really bad time and Daryl Sutter and Mike Babcock gave me incredible advice. So I'm not afraid to admit that I'm more, I'm probably more forgiving at times of him than most other people are. That press conference this week made me very nervous for them. I, I did not expect him to grovel. I don't think he needs to grovel, but I wasn't expecting that. That had a much harder tone than I expected. And, you know, I'll say something to, I understand

what everybody's doing here, like Connor McDavid's coming out, Zach Hyman's coming out. I think now, if I was the Oilers, I'd be saying, okay, let's just let him coach and let us play. You know, it was just really interesting to me about hearing like an hour after Babcock was done in that kind of tone. Gary Bettman says, you know, we have certain expectations of decorum and how this will work. There's a lot of reputations on the line here of some people who I think very highly of. And I was a little concerned after that press conference. but that's who he is. That's who he's always been.

Like I can only, it would not shock me if that was part of the conversation where, as he said, it's not like he needs this. He was doing pretty well at the retirement thing. And he goes, if. What is he? He's a coach. I understand. But as he himself has said, he's also Mike Babcock.

So if you're going to hire Mike Babcock, this is who I am. Look, we... I know, and he's talked about, well, me in 2008 versus me in 2002, when he first gets hired in Anaheim, different than who he is now. But a lot of the same still remains. It's clear. And the Oilers have signed up for it. They have chosen to sign up for it.

Yeah, and they drove the bus. And again, like, the one thing I agree with Marty Walsh is, players don't hire the coach. Now, in this case, they played... big role. But you know what? I'm glad you brought this up. You know, they're parading the players out there to talk about this. I'd like to hear from the owner. Because he drove this bus. Okay. Well, let's get to the final thought brought to you by your Canadian Toyota dealers. And Elliot, yeah, the beginning of this week, you were in New York for the Board of Governors'

meetings on Tuesday. And it was there that Gary Bettman discussed amongst a few other things that they were investigating now, the possibility of expansion in Houston or Austin, Texas. And it comes with a hefty price tag, $2 billion for the expansion fee, and they're looking at another billion and a half to get a new arena done, which would be required in both of those markets

if the NHL ends up in either one. I mean, Houston is a name that's been out there for a while. It was like almost 10 years. It's kind of been there. But whether it's there or Austin, does it, you get the sense of this is a matter of when, not if, if now the commissioner's talking about it openly? What I think this is going to do, well, first of all, the one thing, there's a lot of people out there, and I understand where everybody is coming from.

They're like, it's 32, it's enough. And I will say this, I don't think it's just fans and media is saying that. I think there's people in the league who feel them. However, this is why I think Betman thinks like this. 25 of those teams are in the United States. In Major League Baseball, what, there's 29 teams in the U.S. and one in Canada. In the NBA, there's 31 in the U.S. and one in Canada. And the NFL, there's 32 in the U.S. and none in Canada.

If I got any of those wrong, I apologize, I did them off the top. my head. In the NHL, there's 25 in the States and seven in Canada. And I think Betman looks at it like, he doesn't see it like we do. Like, are there enough players for this? He looks at it as there's places for this. So when you're looking at this situation, whether you agree with it or not, you have to understand the prism of how Bettman looks at it. And I'll be honest, I think there is some real opposition to it. Will it matter? I'm not convinced it will.

But I think there is some legitimate opposition to this. Like, we're too big as it is or we're big enough as it is. One of the things I hear about a bit is, like, there's a big new Canadian TV deal, Yeah, Rogers, Go Team Go. But there were a couple years away from a U.S. TV deal. And people in the states are, okay, like, what's this going to be? What's it going to look like? Well, so I heard the commissioner indicated they'd like to have this Houston-Austin

team in by 2930. And I was like, that seems ridiculously fast. And I don't know if that's feasible, but that's the date I heard that was thrown out there. That's around the time a new TV deal would start. So you have to understand, again, this is what. what he's thinking. Houston is the fourth largest market in the United States. How much better is our TV deal if people know Houston's got a team, for example? And he's going to go back to Arizona. It'll take time and they've got to make it work out, but he left Arizona. You know he's going to go

back to Arizona. That's also a big market, like 10th or something like that. So understand that's what Betman thinks. That's why this is happening. Now, there are some people that got annoyed when we said things like, it's about Houston, it's about Houston, because they, you know, the people who are doing this, and it's the freaking group, and they're pretty big Texas family, they are saying that they consider it 50-50. It's going to be one or the other, and they will give Austin a legitimate chance. Apparently, there is a lot of money in Austin, and that's why they're interested. The one thing that someone said to, by the way, apparently Betman was also asked, how many teams do you see in this league?

Like 33, like then where are we going to go? He kind of didn't answer that, I heard. 46, the welcome with a 46 team at H.L. Oh, geez. So it was, that's too many thoughts. I heard like somebody, yeah, really, somebody said to me that there's an NBA guy in Houston for Tita. Mm-hmm.

And for Tita is a. Barroom brawler. He's tough. Now, I'll say this about Fertita is he's shown some lukewarm interest in the NHL before. They've tried to get him in a league before, but he's never been willing, like he would never pay $2 billion. Like, and they basically said here it's $3.5 billion between team and arena, not to mention the operating costs. No way he would do that. Now, so what some people are wondering here is, is this a pressure tactic? If you don't want to be with us, we'll come into you. And they're very curious to see how he reacts to this. Because he's no, I don't know, I've never met him, but I've heard about him. And he is no shrinking violet.

So, like, that's what a few people have said to me that the thing they found most interesting about it was, what is the reaction of the NBA incumbent going to be? Okay. The other thing I wanted to ask about because there was a few listeners curious about it. And we'll get to the thought line here later on, but this one I'm sliding in early because it's topical. Alex from Atlanta. Yes.

Who said, finally got the expansion news I'd been waiting for, and it wasn't about Atlanta. be honest, should I just give up? I would say no. Alex, I would say no. First of all, I should never give up. Take it for me, Rick Astley. That's right. Good job, Kyle.

Put in the Rick roll here. But I wouldn't because, you know, the commissioner said Atlanta and Arizona weren't ready yet. But also, I don't see this being a 33-10. Team League, as I said before, Alex. Plus, as we described at the beginning, I don't think Betman sees just one hole.

I think he sees several. This may take a little more time. Yeah. Okay. That was the final thought. Brought to you by your Canadian Toyota dealers. We'll not take a break just yet. We do have the thought line coming up a little later on.

And as mentioned, our interview with Yarmokhek al-Inan, but first, Checking in with Sam Cousentino and Jason Bucula, teeing up the first round of the 26 NHL draft Friday night right here in Buffalo. We'll take you there now. All right. So, Elliot, as you know, one of the many keys to success in life is surrounding yourself of people that are smarter than you. That's a low bar for us, but we have come to two of the best here,

especially this time of year. Our annual check-in, Sam Cosentino, prospect guru, SportsNet and Jason Buchlow with the pro hockey group, been in the scouting business, well, for 25 years now. Oh, God. Yes. That just makes me feel ancient there. And when did you work your first CHL game? Oh, geez.

That would have been on local Rogers and that would have been probably in 1998. Oh, geez. So I wanted to start for the two of you. I would love to know what your journeys have been like this season, which events have you gone to? Where is the road taking you ultimately to Buffalo for the draft? and follow this year's draft class. Boots? Let the Godfather go first. Oh, yeah, the Godfather. Well, you know, unfortunately, and fortunately,

I still have a paying job at Sportsnet. And so being in the studio and actually getting out to do games, mostly in the, for Ottawa or for Winnipeg. So it's good when I'm doing games in Ottawa because they can sneak in the Gatinaw and see games there and they can sneak in and see the 67 game. They play at home on Friday night, so that's always fun. And that's good. I saw a number of games in those areas when I was doing NHL games.

Got to the World Juniors. That was a blast. And then most of the rest of it, it's just TV and sneaking out whenever you can to go and see games locally. You know, getting into Brathen and it's close by and then keeping an eye on video and watching highlight packs and so on and so forth. And, you know, on reading and making calls and emails, I, you know, I tend to lean a little bit more towards the anecdotal side of things because I like to try and tell the backstories. And so since Bukes has come aboard with all of his hockey acumen, he kind of leans in that direction. I lean a little bit more towards the anecdotal side so we can tell all sides of the story.

One of the things we do together, though, I think you would agree, is that if I'm on the tour and I see something that pops, and there's somebody that's on the periphery of Sam's interest level, and he's building something in his first round, I'll share some of my video analysis. You know, I'll feed him some files and say, listen, just so you know, this is what I saw out there on the tour. And for me at the pro hockey group, you know, I'm fortunate because I have 16 guys

embedded around the world on my staff. So it's really like an NHL hockey operations department. I come into Sportsnet and I, you know, work occasionally on TV and studio, which I love. It kind of gets me off to road a little bit. But I've seen all the OHL, I've seen the Quebec League, I've seen the Western League. I've been in the States and seen several college weekends down there. World Junior overseas at the U-18 World Championships in Slovakia. So all the really big events, I certainly want to make sure that I'm there, live and present.

The thing about video is that it follows the puck, right? And it's a fantastic tool, but you need to be in the rink and you have to really get down to the brass tacks of what that prospect is all about. How does he warm up? Does that mean he starts on time in a game? You know, he gets bench for a shift or takes a bat penalty. what's he doing towards the coach or the official or how is he interacting with his teammates all that kind of stuff.

So it's really important for me. So I was on the road probably, well, I don't know how many games I ended up seeing. I can tell you that there's over a thousand game reports this year, so it gives you a little bit of an idea. Where was the most remote place you guys went this year to see some? Well, Trenching in Slovakia is probably the most remote this year. I was very close to going out to PG at one point,

but I didn't take it on. nowhere really remote for me. I mean, we were in Alberta for the Prospects challenge games. The Godfather doesn't go to remote locations. Latsbridge was a trip that night, though. That was a trip out of Calgary that night. Yes, it was. Indeed.

But ended up calling the Chipotle All-American game for NHL Network. So that's a pretty big game where you get the best U.S. HL guys in the under 18 team. So that was a really solid viewing there. World Juniors in Minnesota, we were kind of off on our own. We had a book set up a nice hotel set up over there, obviously within the confines of the budget for sure. And it was cool.

I had a cool little bar. It stayed open for us. You know, that was a good setup. They were a lottily stayed open the first night. And then as soon as they saw our act when we came back the second night, it was a no brain. It was over time.

I respect a place like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice. And you know they're going to get compensated for it. That's right. What's the breakfast place there? Oh, the one that we all around the corner there.

Oh, my gosh. You're putting me on the spot. You found it. In Minnesota Vikings, like on Sundays, this place is ramped. It's outstanding. It's a hot stove place. It's unbelievable. So every, before Vikings games, it's right downtown Minneapolis.

And anybody's been to Minneapolis recently. So 10 years ago, downtown Minneapolis to today's downtown Minneapolis, it's totally different animal. It used to be a real foodie city. Like a lot of theater, great music there, all kinds of stuff. It's kind of changed a little bit, except for that breakfast place. We've got to, we'll follow up with you, Dom, and we'll feed it to you because this place is packed. Never mind NFL games.

Like, we were in there that one day. It was like a Wednesday. It's like 11 o'clock because we didn't get out of the hamper too early. And it's packed. Pack. The Italian restaurant the day before was pretty good. Yeah. That place was good.

Listen, you guys know, when you travel with the Godfather, you're eating well. You're eating well. And I don't drink red wine. But it's fascinating to see him go through the whole. soliloquy of ordering his glass of red. Yeah, it's great. Is it one of those guys he swishes it around? You got to aerate the wine?

Do you smell it? Sure. Do you sniff it? Of course. Do you like swish it around your mouth? No, because technically what you're supposed to do is spit it out. It really is what you're supposed to do into a little spittoon. If he starts getting out of control like that, he's going to wear me out.

I'm going to hit him right in the forehead. Like, come on. I know we want to get to the prospects, but so one of the reasons pods, Kyle was aghast at the idea. I could walk on a side street in Vegas while clipping my fingernail. I wasn't the only one. Well, you're all wrong. Tell me what is the most annoying thing about traveling with each other? Well, Sammy doesn't drive as well as I do.

I'd say, I'm a better driver for sure. That one I would say. So what's it like driving with Santa's? It's aggressive. It's a little bit lower to the ground because I'm in my truck. So everything just seems like it's coming at me. a lot quicker when it was Sammy. I respect it, Sam.

I don't believe in Amber. Most everything is green. The color or the commentator? The commentator. What about him? What is it? The secret voice. What is he?

Oh, the anonymous. The anonymous. The anonymous, yeah. The anonymous. With Bookes? Boots is like a shoe guy. You got to see this shoe collection. It's unbelievable.

I put him on to a place. you know, when it comes here. It's actually your fault. It is my fault. And then next thing, you know, like, he's doing stuff online. Oh, you should see these shoes I design. These are amazing. He's got 6,000 pair of shoes.

He's a Marcos. Was it Imelda Marcos? I might. That's right. That is a blast of the past. So when the coup occurs in the Bucola residents, like they're going to be taking me away with my shoes just because that happened to Emelda back in the day. Did you bring those golf shoes? I did.

I'm pretty nice. Let's get to the players. This is my fault, by it. Every now and then, you got to get off the rails. Hey, you know,

Friege, when we're playing red tell, we got to look good, feel good. It doesn't even matter if we play good. We just got to look good. So I remember last year, you felt you're pretty confident

about at least kind of where or who maybe in the top four was going in the draft. And then you said after that, it's like anybody's guess. Like, where's the tipping? point this year where potential chaos could unfold and who goes where in your mind. Well, I think nine names we can pretty comfortably peg.

Like the first nine, you think? Same for both of you? The order of the names is going to be a little bit different, but I have nine guys that I feel pretty confident. I'm dropping that down to 10 just because I have a wild card in there at 10 that I feel like half the league really, really values and the other half of the league valleys is the way in the back in the first round. Who's that?

Alexander Command from Smith. Yeah, you like him. Yeah, I like him a lot. But Sam's right. It's, it's lines in the sand. You call them tears, whatever you want to call. You can run through it right now. So you're looking at McKenna, Stenberg, let's call it Mulholtra,

then let's call it Reed, let's call it Smits, then you got Bjork, then you got Carl's, you got Rudolph, Verhof. There's nine right there. I feel pretty good about those nine names. after that, you know, Balchets, Lynn, some different guys command, they start to enter the parade. But I think those nine guys are the first nine guys off the board.

All right. Go ahead, sorry, so for me, when you start throwing out some of those names and the reason why I have him in different orders, like Albert Smith's out of the box, his floor is higher than any of those other defensemen, okay? And he played more hockey than anybody this year, that kid. It's incredible, really, right?

For listeners who aren't aware, he played pro in league. he played J20 in Finland. He ended up getting loaned out to Munchin in the Dell in the back half of the season. In between, World Junior for Latvia. And then Olympics for Lafia. And then Men's World Hockey Championship for Latvia.

Nobody played more as a draft championship. Well, that's insane. But the crazy part, if you rewind in the tape a couple months, he played for the under 18 worlds for Lafay. So think about that. U.A.T., U20, Men's World Olympics for your country. That's crazy. in the course of basically 16 months.

So more viewings than anybody on different high leverage scenarios, but what I would say in that old list that we're talking about then, and this is why I put command at 10, challenging Smiths at 9 on my list, is because I truly believe that Smith's floor is higher.

Command's ceiling in two or three years could be higher. So that's where I'm kind of at that cut off there. And that's why I have Smith's nine on my list too. He's not in the reed territory or anything like that. Or Verhofen, right? All right. And actually, I agree with you with that. I don't think the NHL teams think that way.

I talk to a number of teams that really like Smiths. I don't like him as much. So that'll be interesting to see where it goes. All right. So do we have any doubt? Let's go through this. Do we have any doubt McKenna's going one? I have no doubt.

No doubt. Okay. You know, for each, so there isn't a general manager in the National Hockey League that has the stones not to take them. Oh, God. God, you know, so this is this is where we're going to be young. I know. I understand.

I understand what you're saying. For me, my response to that is that you better have the stones to make those decisions on those days for the better minute of a team. Like one way or the other, you know, like you have to have. That's why you're there. You're one of the top 32 guys in the league supposedly at your job. Or in the world at the highest level. When you have an owner who's heard about this guy for the better part of two years and you walk in there and you say, nope, this is not the guy. Like, how do you combat that?

Can I answer some? We interviewed Jarmo Kekyllian today, and one of the things I said to him is I heard that he is good. Terry Pagula, I think, is a really good owner. I think he wants to be a great owner. And I think part of the thing is he gets really excited and they hadn't won a long time. I've heard Kekkeliana is really good at saying, hey, just let me work this. Yeah. You don't think a guy like Kekalining could tell his owner if McKenna.

I don't have some reason to see bias here, but that's one guy who jumped into my head right away. Put both of those guys in the seat to pick number one and then tell me what happens. He might have pushback,

he might not. But when the owner says, hey, tickets, jerseys, and it starts to go beyond the scope of hockey, that becomes a different conversation.

So if you put him in that seat, I don't think there's any doubt that he would have pushback. But I also believe that if Terry Bagula said, you're taking this guy, then he's taken him. So that's not so much them having the stones as it's a directive from the owner.

Well, but this is the point of saying you have to combat the owner. So what general manager is going to stand up to his owner in that regard? And listen, everyone, every single guy in that spot is going to tell you, there's no way. I'm on this job 24-7. We have a staff that we're paying millions of dollars to. But at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, I don't think there's a guy in the league that'll do it. So my big picture here is that this whole entire, as everybody knows, trust me, I've had enough people throwing rocks at my glass house since January. I've had Ivers Stenberg number one on my list for since January.

Okay. And McKenna came on strong in the second half of the year and a bunch of metrics that I qualify him to be, you know, challenging Stenberg. The fact of the matter is Stenberg didn't fall off that perch. So it would be irresponsible of me to, you know, switch it around because. there wasn't enough of a gain and there wasn't enough of a falloff. Now, having said that, I think one thing that we're really disrespecting in this process is this. Stenberg plays in sweeping guys. So he's out of sight of mind to the North American market more than anybody else. When I start hearing things, and please don't take this the wrong way, Sammy, when I start hearing

things like these guys don't have the stones or it's going to sell jerseys and it's going to do this and that, to me, that's disrespectful a bit to Stenberg's value as well. Because, yeah, he might not be is marketable, but he's outstanding. He's outstanding. And when you're winning Stanley Cups or you're going deep in playoff runs, does it matter then how many jerseys and hot dogs and beers you swalled on two minutes? I'm with you a thousand percent. Like, I remember, I hate, I don't like to kick a guy while he's gone,

but that's what happened with Yakupov in the Oilers. Shea got overruled and told to take. Right. Like, again, Nail Yakopov. I like it's it's been a long time but that's what I would tell my owner I think I would hope that a GM would at least have the guts to say to their owner and I agree with you if you don't have the guts to say that you shouldn't be a GM you shouldn't be a GM but I would hope a GM would have the guts of the owner to say hey this is a situation where this happened let us do our job again yeah let us I think every GM would have that conversation I I fully believe would you take like so let's just would you take so let's just would you take So if you were the GM, if you were the least GM, who would you take? I would take McKenna. You would, eh?

Yeah. After all that. No, but part of the reason is like there's potential for a 90 or 100 point guy. And while Stenberg, okay, let's say. How many guys? How many guys had 100 points in the league this year? Seven. Seven guys.

Okay. Mitch Marner, did I think when he came in a league, he was going to be a perennial 100 point guy? I didn't think that it turned up to be to be. Is this guy? Mitch Marner. Well, he doesn't play defensively like Mitch Mark. But the point of trying to make is that when I look at the entire situation, and we know this better than anyone, like Rogers is a business guys. And so this has been hyped for how long.

And the thing is, it's not like you're going to take, I don't believe this to be a Yakupov situation. I believe that the high end potential of this player is going to speak to someone who is going to give you more on that end than Stedenberg's all-around game. Is it going to be a huge gap? No, I don't think so. I think Stenberg is the better all-around player and will be the better all-around player for the length of their careers.

But I really feel that the offensive upside that McKenna has is something that I don't want to miss out on. Who's going to? Stenberg. Stenberg. You think so? So I sent the radio the other day on Maddie and Mike's show. that I think Stamber is going number two.

And someone called me and said, don't be so emphatic. So I'm doubting myself. I'm gasoline. I wouldn't doubt yourself. I'd be very comfortable with it. And I'd actually still stand on that tomorrow. If it doesn't happen,

the reasoning behind it, I would still stand on that. He's the second, like, I've been there. He's so good. I've, you know,

I've done this and sometimes not very well, but I've tried my very, very best. And that's the cutoff, guys. there's a drop off to the next guy. So when you start taking a look at the Chase Reed, let's take a look what Stenberg did.

Again, I'll just bring it back. And I'm not sitting here to try and justify that I have a number one. Because by the way, if I'm the Toronto Maple Leaf is part of my reasoning. I'll answer the question. Yeah, Sammy, I'm drafting Stenberg, okay, over McKenna. I'm drafted Stenberg. The reason is that I feel like they went through the rest of what you're talking about. They're the business and all that.

That's not my lane, right? That's not my lane. If somebody in the business office and marketing can't market our top, the first pick overall, whether he comes from the moon or Sweden or wherever. That's not my lane. I'm trying to do what's best for the organization. Okay. So when I look at Stenberg, I feel the trauma may police in the last cycle of the retool rebuild.

Let's call the rebuild. Here we are in Buffalo. Matthews got drafted. Okay, that's a rebuild. How did they do it, guys? They did it a certain way with a certain type of player, a player type. I think everybody would agree on that. And then they were chasing a different type of player type.

They have a unique opportunity in front of them to revisit sort of a same sort of player type that they grabbed in the past or do it differently. And they're not going to be far off offensively, but they're going to be way better in all the rest of the game, the metrics of the game. And what wins in playoffs? The metrics win out. It's not just offense. It's the rest of it that starts to win out. It rises. So that's why I'm sticking out.

And people can disagree with me. Be kind. I don't care. But, you know, that's just my thought. process trying to work my way through it. So that's why there's no chance in my mind that Stembourg goes past two. You traded Eklund out. Stembert's going to walk right on his celebrini's flank next year and he's going to go off.

He's going to produce at an Ecclin level, I believe, right away. And the other part is when you look at Kesselring, so the way I had it set up was Reed was going to go right shot defense when he's going to go second. I think the addition to Kesselring, like he's an underrated guy that I've talked to some people in the league about. and they think he's a high, like a high value player who's very, who's undervalued in the market. And so you go get him, right shot guy, he's got a bomb from the point. He can, he can manage some of the power play time.

Reed to me is going to be a power play one guy, you know, for what I believe to be a long time. Right. And so when you get Kessoring, you sort of addressed that immediately. You got a little bit older. You got some experience. You moved out a guy who was, you know, a decent point producer for you and Ecklin. Stenberg fits immediately into that hole next year, and I think he's a 50-point guy in his rookie year.

I believe that. The thing is, sometimes when we look and we're having this conversation, the gap between these two guys, like, if I'm taking McKenna won, okay, great. But the gap between him and Stenberg is like, it's minimal. And there are many parts of the game that right now, and probably projectable, where Stenberg is going to be the better guy.

Do you guys like Demetoff in Montreal? I do. Stemberg is better than Demetoff out of the box. right away right away yeah now the surrounding is going to be a little less mature in san Jose but it's on the horizon you know and celebrini's already punching way above his playing weight so this is like look at that power play if they get Stenberg there what they could roll out so time will tell but he's he's guys he's really good he's good well i mean that speaks well because i remember two years ago in Vegas and how high you were on demadov of going to

and you guys just wait till you see him. So for you to make that comment about Stenberg speaks to how highly you to him. And Montreal's got this other kid Zorovsky coming. I'll just go off. I'll go off course here for a sec. God, the Montreal Canadians, embarrassment of riches.

It's great. Yeah. So, and it also sounds like there's not much doubt that in your two minds that Chase Reed will be the first defenseman to go. I don't have, I don't have them. I don't have them going first.

No? We differ a little bit here. So my reason, behind this again. And this is what's great about it. I think what we really should have answered the question, this is how we can kill a ride from Calgary to Leithbridge, you know, ping pong, back and forth to argue with each other with different philosophies, different approaches. I have Keaton-Varhoff first, okay? Why? Well, Keaton Verhoff, if he stays back in June, he had 21 tucks a year ago in Victoria. If he stays back this year, they trade him to

Everett, let's say at the trade deadline and Evergoast of Memorial Cup. So let's say he gets 30, 35 of goals. Daxon-Rudoff. He's 3080 for sure. Daxson Rudolph had 37 or 38 total in PA this year. Okay. So Bearhoffs at least that. He's at least that. And he plays in all situations. Now, he didn't.

He challenged himself to go to the NCAA. And his metrics down there, his statistical analysis, fourth highest leading draft eligible defense score in the history of the NCAA. Okay? And I don't know that the narrative has been lost. It's been gobbled up somewhere along the line here.

He's a year younger than Reed. Reed's a late birthday. Bearhoffs has a 13 years. year old, okay? You know, all these things matter to me. And that's why, like, Verhoff's got a lot of, if he would have stayed back in his draft year in the dub, he reminds me a lot of Aarneck Blab when we drafted him in Florida back of the day. He reminds me a lot of them. You know, and actually he's got more bite than that had at that time when he played in Barry. I see a dynamic ability in Reed that has some McCarr-like qualities. Don't get me wrong. I'm not seeing this guy's

Kail McCar. But the way he transports the puck by himself, the way he passes. The way he passes the puck with accuracy, with pace, and being able to bring those things to an NHL level as opposed to the junior level and no disrespect to the St. Marie Greyhounds and the teammates he has there. But I think he can do things at an even higher rate at that level

when you have guys who can accept passes in good areas and off their feet and do some of those other things. But man, this guy, he can wheel and deal. And at times, he looks like he's skating and he'll just blow right by you know he has that extra gear that's very kind of subtle uh his foot works great ability to get shots through can really hit the puck hard as well so like i like some really the dynamic element that he brings to the game to me is the best

of any of the defensemen um Vancouver listeners are probably like wait they got one and they got two and then they changed come on give us give us Vancouver so there've been some that maybe the Malhotra's don't want to be united. It's not the best thing for everybody involved. Let's just take that out of it for a sec. Forget that it's a father-son thing. Who do you think Vancouver's taking third? So that's who do I think they're taking?

Well, actually, let's put this way. Do you think they should take it? Okay, so I can answer it that way. I think they should take Mahalter. And so, again, for me, until I'm told otherwise by people above me in the organization. My job is to build out the team with the best assets possible, build a team, right?

Period. And for me, the average NHL coach, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's like two and three quarters of years if you're lucky and you get fired. I hope that doesn't happen to Manning Malhotra. Don't get me wrong. But for the longevity of the good of the group,

the good of the organization, you have to draft the very best player. You know, they didn't go into hiring Mani Mahalta, not knowing that Caleb Malhotra was the top sentiment available in the draft, They already knew that. They'd already done all that work, right? So it's not perfect.

It's an anomaly. It's uneven. We may never ever see it again. But for the good of the group, you've dropped the best player, Caleb Multer. I think he's the best center available. It's not by a ton. I mean, you know, Vigo Bjork is right there. And if Figo Bjork was six feet tall, they'd be equally in the conversation together.

I have thrown this back and forth in my brain a million times. you hire the coach, the first move you make is you bypass the son in the draft. Human nature, what does that tell you? Right. Sure, you're going to be disappointed. Are you going to carry that to your job every day? Probably not. Man, he's a pro, 900 and whatever 80 games in the national hockey league.

But still, there's a human nature element to all of that, right? And then you think about, okay, what's the flip side of that? What is the dynamic going to be like in the room when three years down the road, he's a regular player in their top six, and dad's coach and the guys are on the bus. a few pops or they're going out for dinner and now there's some criticism of a coach's move or why didn't he do this or this guy's an idiot or whatever the case might be that when you have a few pops and you're venting that might come out how awkward is that going to be and and pretty much everyone that I've talked to that's been in that situation is like oh no you can't have it now

that being said that was a long time ago and the game was different and people were different and mental health and on all those things, we're in a much different place than where we are now. But, you know, I love books because he's just true to exactly what the job is, right? So he tells you he's told to build out a team, he's building out with the best asset available, and the best asset there is Caleb Malholtra. I totally agree.

The one thing I would say and have caution, and my mock draft, I put Malhulter there, okay. The one thing I would have caution of it, For four straight years in this market, all we've seen is drama and a circus. You are inviting the potential for that to happen if you draft Caleb Mulholtra, whether you like it or not. And does a new regime with the Sadiens at the top, Brian Johnson is the GM and Manny as the coach, do they want to, we're just trying to clear ourselves from that drama. Do you want to get right back into that movie?

Do you? I understand. When, and I might say, okay, if I really have that need for a center, Vigo Bjork is like, he's, he is, this guy's unreal. He's only shorter. That's, that's really like, at these six foot, we're, we're having a different conversation. I just, I want to put a bowl on it from my end. I think that people have to understand when you're a director of scouting or you're running a scouting staff for the national hockey, your job is this. And as soon as you start to invite all these other scenarios of yours, which are very factual, they're, they're,

They are scenarios that could play out, but I don't know that. And what I know today is this is the best player. And so management and other team psychologists, whoever was running in Harb's meetings and stuff like that, they're going to pipe in and they're going to have other. So then what happens is the GM then looks at me and says, okay, Jason, here's the reason of why I'm not going to do it. Who's the next best guy? Tell me why.

And it's big up York. And I'm splitting hairs anyways. I'm very close. But understand that you have, unless you're steadfast in that process, that structure and if you invite all that other stuff in to your process, you're meeting the last three years because you could, you know, it's sunny now. It could rain in an hour. I don't know that, but I know it's sunny right now. It's so true to the process. Like for me, it's been a great learning experience, right? Because I tend to think about all of those anecdotal things in the outside

noise because I do believe that they are a real piece of the puzzle. But when Buk says, this is my job and I'm going to do my job, you guys worry about the other stuff. I'm going to tell you who the best players are. And if there's a real impact from ownership, from psychologists, from whatever it is, then please let me know about that. I would also say that I have to trust the kids. Like when he comes in and meets with us at the combine,

and the way he presents himself and the way that he presents, he's a captain of the CHL Top Prospects game. He's a leader on a brand for Bulldogs team. He beats out a lot of high-end guys that every... First rounders. First rounders have been drowned. Like all these things add up in my mind. That's all part of it.

So, you know, we could beat it to death. just trying to. You want to present all sides of the story. Who do you think Vancouver's take? Quick. Do you think they're taking them? I think they're taking a ultra. I think so too.

They do. I really do. He's who I put on my muck. Yeah. Wow. All right. A couple of things I wanted to ask, like the Ruck twins. Like, if you put on your mock, you've got St. Louis back to back there, right?

I do, in the Sadiens in 99? I mean, do you envision a scenario? And is it similar to the Sadeen twins where there's a school of thought out there that those two are at their best when they're together as opposed to a part? I would, well, yeah, the short answer to that is yes, because we don't know any differently. And they've actually come into our room when we've met with them and said, we've only been apart four days in our whole life.

They still sleep in the same room, you know, back home. So these kids, they're Siamese twins is what they are. But it's a cool story. It's fascinating. I have them back to back in the middle of the first round. I can tell you why. It's the St. Louis Blues, if they hold all those picks, if they hold all those picks, they're in complete control of how they want to strategize that.

So when you're looking at it there, Kyle, they have 11, 15, 16, and then what is it, 29? 29. So don't look at it from 1 to 29. Look at it from 11 to 29. And what do you got? You got 18 players. Okay, you got 18 players. So if they take their top rated guy at 11, but now they're down to 17 and they got

three, but now they've got to go through the whole league, right? there's a strong possibility that out of that list of 17 players they have left on that list, that if they step on Marcus, because Liam is kind of stepping on Liam for me, like four or five slots, but it's really stepping on Marcus to get them at 16. I still believe they're going to have seven or eight guys left from that group of players to draft with their last pick.

You understand my process there? So it's a strategy. You're taking control of not having to trade another asset if you want to try and marry the two. I like the way you're thinking. Yeah, you're trying. I learned every day. We have worked together for almost 12 years. That's the first time I've ever said.

Yeah. And so, and I didn't have to go to Western to come up with these analogies. I went to the University of the Seeps and Barneys. But I'm trying to, as I'm sitting there on the floor, that's how I'm thinking about it. I think that I'm pretty comfortable, one of my eight guys are going to be there with my last pick. So you're having to step here and people are going to say, well, you step. All I'm doing is reverse. engineering, a strategy on the floor.

Amazing. I've talked to a number of teams, and they believe, like I do very strongly, that they're better together. So, you know, what does that look like? For me, I think William is a first round guy. I don't believe Marcus is. And so the Calgary Flames look like this scenario, which that can make that happen. Now, the flip side of that is some people are saying, well, between Calgary's, I think

it's 30th, right? They got Vegas's pick, 30? Yes. If they take Liam there, if Liam's still available, and then they pick early in round number two within the first five picks around number two. They got 36, yeah. And so someone said to me,

well, someone's going to run in there and block them, and they're going to hold Marcus hostage because they know that they're better together. And I'm thinking to myself, if someone wants to spend their draft capital to block somebody from this happening, what are you doing? aren't you not defeating the purpose of your job?

But if you truly believe Marcus is the guy, then fine, you justify it and move along. The way I look at it is Calgary, you know, you get the medicine hat thing, they're from a Soils. I think Calgary would have the best opportunity to do it. And the fallback that I would look at is if I take Liam at 30 and he's available there, I still have a player I really, really like. And I will, if I have to, take the chance of separating them, although I don't believe that's the best path forward for either one of them. I still believe Marcus is going to be there at 30.

and if he's not good, I'll sit in my fallback position. I'll have the Liam, the shooter, the goal score, and then I will work maybe later in life to secure that player. And if Marcus is a guy that may never play in the National Hockey League or if he becomes something different than what we expect him to be, then maybe as an organization I can go out and get him. And to bring him in at the very least, bring him into my organization at a later date. I wouldn't want to spend draft capital to make that happen.

And you and I have talked about this. But in the event that that happens, Calgary also has the draft capital. So from a strategy perspective, I can see it, I can see it working out. And I can see it working out even if they happen to get split. And that's why I picked Calgary at 30. The team that I would be worried about there on the floor, it would be the Pittsburgh Penguins if that were the scenario because Pittsburgh's at 23, I believe, Kyle.

and then and then they got 39, I believe. 22 and 32. Yeah. I just, 22 is a spot for Liam. I think that's very much of a spot for Liam. So now that, you know, I'm just, I'm trying to think, okay, who, if they go, if he got past, if he got past Pitt, I'd feel more comfortable.

Yeah. But when I'm, when I'm knowing the Pittsburgh guys way, I know the Pittsburgh guys, I see them, like in Liam, I just see that as a fit. But the other part of it is, and Kyle Doobes has been known to works of magic on the floor is like, okay, we got 22. If we don't pick to 39, I'm going to find a way to upgrade that 39 and get it a little closer

where I think I'm going to be able to get Marcus as well. See how Sammy just said that right there? To do that, you're going to have to invest another asset to make that happen. And that's why I present the St. Louis strategy the way I played it,

because you don't have to invest another asset later on. You're using your four picks instead of having to invest a fifth to make something creative happen. It all matters. Well, we were talking briefly

with Calgary in that New York kid, someone said to me they won't be surprised if Calgary takes him. Oh, he's not getting past Calgary. I firmly believe he would not get past Calgary. Okay. He is so good, guys. Like, oh my gosh, he is in the fight.

Like men's worlds, he's playing top line, top power play. Lucas Raymond, no problem. Like, Stenberg, yeah, no problem. He is, this guy is unbelievable. And the one thing that I was a little bit, I'm not taking it back, but just sort of surprised by,

is when we met him at the combine, he's a little bit stockier than I thought. And the way he presented himself, nicely dressed, completely confident. He did himself a lot of favors at the combine because if you look at a smaller guy and you're trying to find a reason not to take him aside from just the size,

you're not going to find it with this guy. And so when you meet him in person, he shakes your hand and he looks you in the eye, like he checks all of those boxes. So there is no other reason. And the size, to me, it's not going to be an issue. If you watch him play against men all year, there's not an area in the ice he won't go to,

and there's not a battle, he won't try and win. And he wins a lot of them because he's ridiculously smart. This guy is so good. He's so good. He's like, he can play the flank on the power play. He can play the bumper on the power play. He can kill panels.

He can play with speed. He'll slow it down off the rush. He's really, the one thing, there's going to be a lot of Swedes drafted in the first 40 picks tomorrow, and that group that just came through Sweden, and you guys have seen it with like the U.S. National Team Development Program,

over the years, the whole slew of them can draft it really high. This group of Swedes, they play the game the right way. They have skill, but they have character and they know how to win. Like they are, they're dialed in. This kid has a Cole Coffield-like personality. When he came into our room for his interview, he just, like, you walk out of there. It's like, I want to just go have dinner with this kid or something. I just want to hang out with him, right?

He's really great. Except he doesn't want to have dinner with you. Okay. But you know what he did say to me? He goes, I like your shoes, Jason. How many more pairs do you have? So what is the biggest round one shocker? Okay.

Who's going to go first round? What is the biggest first round shocker? This weekend? If you were... Maxim Sokolowski gets drafted by the Boston Bruins. It will be a shocker to some. Not to me. So Sokolowski is the 6'7 and a quarter, 240-pound left-shot defenseman from the London

Knights. And Boston always finds a way to surprise me. Trent Frederick back in the day, 29th overall. Dean Laternal. You know, Dean Laternal. You know, it cost me a lot of money that picked it,

a lot of way who went out the door. But this is a situation that I see him being a, they think that he could be the next coming of, like, I don't like it carried away, but Zadino Char like, you know what I mean, like that tree of a guy that plays a certain way.

And you know he's, and he beat up a few people in the back after the year too. Eat up. Zedorov is a name that comes to mind too. I think, you know, we got the London thing. He's born in Kazakhstan, but essentially he's Russian. Can I throw one other one out of you guys? Sure. The other guy that I think has fallen in some rankings, he's kind of in the muddy middle for me is I think Mathis Preston. I think somebody still believes in Mathis Preston a lot more than other teams. Sokolovsky, actually, I'm going two picks ahead of that at 21 to Philadelphia. Philadelphia went to Totally makes sense A bonk, what, two years ago

in the draft at 22. Like a lefty-rady. I think the London thing always plays no matter what you say and if you saw the growth of this player from the start of the year to the end of the year, you're looking at two different players.

And so I think he would fit the Philly bill. You know, you're talking about beating up people. He'd fit the bill there in Philadelphia. So I haven't gone there. I don't want people to misunderstand. This guy's not, like that's not all he does. No, he's a big, big physical guy. Yeah.

And there's a good story we're going to tell in draft night about him and how he ended up in London, but we'll save that. For me, Brooks Wrigowski is a fascinating guy. Now, I'm going 32 to Ottawa, and I think that's going to be a bit of a shocker, and I even shocked myself when I actually wrote it down. Six-seven guy who's a baseball player, has got baseball in his family bloodlines, but he's really lightly played.

He just sort of decided on hockey last year, and all of a sudden, like, here he is, a point per game, he's playing center, he skates really well, has got good hands for a big guy. So I think he's really just at the start of his developmental cycle when a lot of these players are probably, from the back end of their minor careers to two years in their respective leagues are really starting to make it happen. So when it comes to Ruggowski, I just see the room for improvement is huge. I don't know what that ceiling is going to look like, but there's a lot of room to make it happen. And the other part about him is, I don't think he's realized just how big and strong he is and can be.

and once he gets into a situation where he has to learn to apply that on a regular basis, I'm not saying he's going to be a menace or be a tough guy like the Sokolovsky, but I do think he's going to have to add some pushback in his game more than what we're seeing now. But it's just a matter of getting used to your body type and understanding what you can do and how much an advantage you can have if you use your body to, you know, to its best advantages. NHL players are very, very crafty smart. When you're a big, strong kid like Rogowski, Raw, 6'7, whatever, every way. And if you don't push back physically enough at that size, you're going to get

punched in the nose and they're going to will you out of your game. You know what I mean? So he's going to have to absolutely develop that. Again, Boyle, it's a comparison that some people have talked about with this guy. Okay. Boyler, a pretty good career, boiler. Yeah. Wow. All right. Anything else, hell you? No, I think I'm good. Awesome. Any trades? I'm working on something. I like to hear. Busy day tomorrow. Busy two days for you, gentlemen. So appreciate the time. here and rest up for what's to come. Thanks, Tom.

We could do it for hours, yeah, we could for sure. We already have. Tom, thanks, buddy. Nice to see you live and in person. All right, welcome back. Time now for the thought line presented by BetMGM,

make it legendary. And Elliot, for those interested in the life and times of David Amber, a new story has come across the timeline. No way. Oh, I cannot wait to hear this. A doozy. Yeah.

So earlier this week, We all travel into Buffalo, and Dave's telling me the story that he gets to the hotel, he checks in, unpacks, decides to relax and throw on the Canada-Switzerland football game from the World Cup. And so he's just lying on his bed, and next thing you know, he hears the door start to open to his hotel room. And the way the room is configured, from the door, you can see kind of the foot of the bed, but like from where Dave is sitting, he can't see the door. He just hears it. So the door opened and he's like, oh, like, you know how jumpy Dave can get? It's like, someone's in here.

And then he hears this woman's voice going, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. He's like, oh, someone's in here. And then they leave. So, like you imagine, like Dave's now a wreck from this whole ordeal. Wait, wait, wait. Was Dave clothed at the time?

He went. I think he was under the comforter. He was like, relaxed. Borderline going into like an afternoon. nap. A siesta. So we are, pass forward to dinner. Him, myself, and Sam Costantino

are sitting, having some food, and he recounts the story for Sam. And he tells it, and Sam suddenly jerks forward in his chair and he goes, Aelish. And we're like, what? He goes, Aelish. That was the girl that walked in on your hotel room. She was texting us earlier about, oh my God,

I got to the hotel and checked in, they gave me the key to a room that somebody was already in, and I opened the door and someone was like, someone's in here, someone's in here, and I panicked and left. And Dave is like, are you, we both are beside ourselves. So he humorously messages the group that Alish was in saying that he was the guy, and we later go link up with her and a few others from our team here, and she's like mortified. And the best part was she's, she goes, the sound of the voice from that guy in that hotel room, I thought if I had taken another step in that room, I was not getting out.

I was so terrified because of how jumpy Dave was, I'm going, someone's in here, someone's in here. She was mortified. So in a roundabout way, it's brought our team closer together. Now, I will say, I got Aylish's blessing before telling the story on the pot. I was like, are you sure you're okay with it? She's like, absolutely. Did you ask Dave for permission?

No, of course. Good. Excellent. Excellent. And why would I? Outstanding. Yeah. I know I'd taken a fight between the two of them, and it's not Dave.

It's not Dave. Yeah. Anything for you before we get to the- Yeah, I wanted to show to a couple of people when I was flying home from New York the other day. I saw, I ran into Griffin Luce at the airport. Griffin Luce played overseas in Scotland this year. He said, now he's retiring. He's going into business.

business. He was headed to a wedding. He said that the groom forgot his suit, and Griffin was bringing it with him to Dallas, where the wedding was. So Griffin's dad is Scott Luce, who was a student at Guelph at the same time I was at Western. He was the starting goaltender for the hated Guelph Griffins, the school outfit that looks like they work at McDonald's, and Scott is now a scout for the Vegas Golden Knights. And the one thing I always remember, Scott, four, and we haven't spoken in a long time. I didn't even know that he'd moved. But the one thing I remember Scott for was he won the argument at the Florida

Panther draft table to take Alexander Barkoff. Like he should probably, Scott should probably go to the scouting Hall of Fame for that reason alone. The other person I wanted to shout out, and it's a bit of a controversial one in the sporting world right now. The new head coach of the Portland Trailblazers is a guy by the name of Micah Norrie. And, you know, there's some controversy because Mike has signed a one-year deal with a couple of team options. And there's some people upset about that. I think people make their own

decisions. They have to do what makes them happy. But I remember, Mike and Norrie broke in on Butch Carter's coaching staff with the Toronto Raptors about 25 years ago. And I was a young reporter covering the Raptors at the time. And Micah was just starting his career. You know, we lost touch over the years. But what a tremendous guy. And I remember, like, he was everywhere. Like, whatever. It's one of those things like when you're starting out in any business, you need me to do this, I'll do that, even if it's not my expertise. But I would see them out on the court long after practice, well before games, helping players work on their shots. You need someone to grab the rebound or pass it back to them. And you just wanted to see everything.

And like I think a lot of people who are very successful in life, you start at the bottom, you work your way up and you do everything you can to be like a sponge. So you eventually get that opportunity. So I hope Micah knocks it out of the park because I know he's been interviewed before and this is a big opportunity for him and I hope it's great for him. Good luck, Micah. You're a smart, sharp guy and I have no doubt you'll do great. Excellent. Good stuff. Okay, as you can imagine, there were a few submissions over the last few days with regards to trade protection and the inner workings of various contracts. So we'll begin with Liam. Hey guys, really enjoy listening to the show. Here's an idea regarding players strong arming their team.

into trades to their preferred destinations, as within their rights. Could you see a world where GMs begin using player-initiated trade clauses? For example, a player could have a full no-move clause. However, if the player initiates a move by requesting a trade or failing to show up for camp, for example, that no-move clause would then be turned into a previously submitted, say, 15-to-20-team trade list. They are basically selecting to be traded over the ability to be extremely picky about where they end up. This gives both parties security but also flexibility if the players want a fresh start and the team does not want to lose value.

Either way, I'm sure those darn southern teams would find a way to exploit it and require a whole new section of the CBA, as is a weekly occurrence. You know, I think that's a great question. I just don't know contractually if you're allowed to do something like that. And what I'll do is I'll follow it up and I'll ask. Like, you know, there are people around the NHL who are contract experts. Could you do something like that? Like one thing I heard, for example, and we're recording this before the news segment. So if I mention this in the news segment, it's been a long day, okay?

I heard that one of the things Winnipeg said was to Connor Hellebock was, if you're going to ask for a trade, then you've got to waive your no trade protection where we want you to go. And he was like, no, I'm not doing that for obvious reasons. But I've said before that leading into the last CBA, I heard there were a couple of teams that said when they, because before the CBA gets negotiated, Betman meets with each team at least once. And they say, I'm not guaranteeing you're going to get what you want, but what are your concerns? And I heard a couple teams brought up no trade clauses. And, you know, this was a peacetime CBA. They wanted to extend their goods.

So they weren't fighting. But I could see a situation where in the next one, they start fighting this kind of thing. Now, if you're the players, you would do whatever you can to keep it. Who knows where it'll go? It's a negotiation. But one of the things someone talked to me about this week was if you have a no trade clause and you demand a trade, there should be some mechanism like that where the team has a defense. And I think like the Brady Kachuk thing, even though he submitted 14,

as you heard everybody talk about it, became pretty clear he wanted to go to one. I can see a situation where the teams are going to say, we don't want that anymore, and we have to have. They don't want a player to have a no trade. Years ago, when Kurt Schilling demanded a trade from the Philadelphia Phillies, the GM at the time Ed Wade gave a press conference, I never forgot, said, he doesn't have a trade me clause. He has a no trade clause.

And I think that that is something I could see the team saying, No, we deserve, if you're going to say you want to be traded, we deserve some power over it, more power over it. Right. Okay. Tevin, up next. Elliot, Kyle, and the Domfather. Can you all explain how a sign and trade actually works? Since Darren Radish is the latest big sign and trade example, we also had Alex Tucker, of course, too.

I'm trying to understand what happens behind the scenes. does Radish's agent negotiate the contract with the Toronto Maple Leafs first, and then Toronto calls up the Tampa Bay Lightning and says, good news, we've done all the paperwork for you, or is the process way more complicated than that? I need answers. My off-season productivity depends on it. Well, I don't want to ruin your off-season productivity,

even though it's the off-season, and therefore you should not be working. Basically, assuming there's no tampering here in any situation, basically the way it works is that a team will give permission to another team like the Sabres and Tuck's case or the Lightning and Radish's case will give permission to someone to say okay you can talk to this player you remember we did a report earlier this spring about basically there was a time where teams were saying like the Chicago gave McKayev the permission to talk to everybody in the league said no that's not the way that this should be working.

And so basically you have to give permission to one team, and then they negotiate the contract, and then actually talk signs with the Sabres first, because Washington can't give him an eight-year deal. Radish had to sign with the lightning first because the Maple Leafs couldn't give him an eight-year deal. So you sign with that player, you sign with that player with that team, the league approves. the contract and then the player is traded. Basically, you have to say we're doing this and we're trading them right away.

And the league has to approve it. You basically have to schedule the call to approve the deal and then the call to make the trade. Right. Because it's at the deadline where that eight year for a team acquiring them goes away, that extra year. Yes. Soon to be now, I guess, seven starting. Yes. Start on September 15th at seven and six.

Awesome. All right. We have a voicemail up next. This is courtesy of Alex in Calgary. I just had a question regarding trade talks and them being private and public knowledge. So in the recent podcast when speaking about Steve Steyos making a trade for Ready to Chuck, you mentioned that he wanted to get the deal done before it got out and before it became public knowledge. What is the benefit in doing so?

And additionally, in recent podcasts, you have. Elliot, you have mentioned that there's been certain, you know, private dealings that GMs have been wanting to keep private. What are the pitfalls of that getting out and what kind of negative effects can come out of a team's news coming out about players wanting to be traded and stuff like that? Why might that be a negative thing for trade talks? Thanks. I think in that particular case, if you ask any Sanders fan, after the Olympics in particular last year, Kachuk's future became an enormous distraction.

And as we talked about in the last pod, as you mentioned, you listened, a player said to me, and I think they said it to other media members too, it just got to be too much. It took too much air up in your dressing room. And I think that Steyos believed, and I heard some people say that Steve Stey's, could have said, no, we're not doing it because you're only giving us one team and we're just not doing it. We're not going to help you.

I think that's an easy thing to say when you're not in the middle of the maelstrom. Like Steve Steehouse and Mike Anlerauer and Travis Green, they're the three people best to decide from a hockey point of view. If we let, if this gets out, is it going to just be really bad for us? us. And I think they decided it was. And it was not going to be much longer before it got out. So I think it's simply a position in a situation where there's so many rumors, especially at this time of year. Like look at this week. You know, Columbus was pretty quiet about Werenzki and Marchenko and what their futures are. And eventually it gets out. Dallas, or Detroit wanted to be quiet about Larkin. It got out.

and wanted to be quiet about nurse, it got out. Some things stay quiet, but, and, you know, like, for example, Kuttergoche, Philadelphia, that one stayed quiet right up until the end. Eventually it, and that's rare, like, it didn't break until the trade. A lot of other, that's rare. Most things don't happen like that, and it can become such a distraction that you, you just want to say, you know what? We're taking control over this and we're not letting go of it.

Okay. And lastly, Elliot, from Mark the ref. Hi, guys. Longtime listener since the 30thus days. Though it wasn't a podcast in the 30 Thoughts days. That was just written form. Right? That's right.

Podcast was 31. With Patrice Bergeron going into the Hockey Hall of Fame, there's been a lot of discussion about his lengthy run as a Selkie finalist for so many consecutive years. So I was thinking about other. recent players who may have similar streaks with being at least a finalist for league awards. I thought McDavid for the heart of course, Lidstrom for the Norse,

etc. Going back further, obviously guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, and Orr, I'm sure, also had long streaks. So the question is, who has the longest streaks of being a finalist for any of the league awards? Thanks for all the work that you're due. So...

That has to be Gretzky. Yeah, so I went and I think that... Or Lydstrom. For the heart The Vesna, the Norris, and the Selke, who has the longest consecutive streaks of being a finalist for those awards. Calder, it's only one year, just to everybody. Everybody knows. For the heart, I would have to say Gretzky.

Correct. For the Norris, it's Lidstrom? No. Is it Bobby Orr? It is. Okay, there's only one of those two. For the Vezna, would it be Brojure? It would be.

Okay. and what was the Selke? I have to say it's either Copatara or Bergeron. It is Patrice Bergeron. Yeah. Because Bob Ganey won the first four, I think, but it came late in his career, so I don't know how many he would have won. He would have been lined up for at that time. Bergeron was a finalist for 12 straight years.

Wow. And won six of them. Gretzky, 10 straight, nine wins. Broder 5 with four wins of the Vesna and Bobiore, 8, North. trophies in nine years. I'm actually surprised that Lidstrom didn't get to nine in a row, but you know what? Maybe he just didn't. Right.

Yeah. Anyway, it's a good question. It's a great question. I did better on that one. I thought I would. No, that was like easy peasy. Dom doesn't even have to cinch up the guest time. There was none.

This is an easy edit. See, Dom, it's a busy day. I'm here to make life really easy on you. You're welcome. Oh, great. All right. That'll do it for the latest edition. of the thought line presented by BEDMGM, make it legendary.

You can send in your own submission to 32 Thoughts at sportsnet.com. Or you can leave a voicemail at 1833-3-3-1-321-32. Take another break and come back with our conversation with Yarmal Kekalai and general manager of the Buffalo Sabres. On the other side, you're listening to 32 Thoughts, the podcast. So Yarmalkelein takes over as general manager of the Buffalo Sabres in the middle of December. After another disappointing start to the season for the Sabres,

he comes out right away and says the Sabres, he believes, could be a playoff team. It was balked at by many at the time. Not only did the team back up what he believed then, they won the division this year and got to game seven of the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs. He is unafraid to be bold and unafraid to make tough decisions as evidence this week alone. He and the Sabres, of course, are the hosts of the draft this year with round one beginning later tonight. And with everything that have been going on, he was kind enough to carve out a few minutes for us back on Thursday afternoon. So we'll get to all of that, the week, the season for him, and what's ahead in Buffalo.

Yarmu Kekalayanan on 32 Thoughts, the podcast. So, Yarmu, first of all, thanks so much for joining us. I wonder with the week that you have had already and what is still to come in posting the draft on Friday. I mean, did Nicole Hendricks with the PR group here? Did they have to pry you out of the office just to come sit with us? Or has it been a little more quieter today? Like, where's your head out of right now?

Well, when we read to it, I didn't know how busy it would be. Did you try to cancel? That's my question. I did not try to cast a lot of respect to you guys. I promise to do this, and I always keep my promise. So, yeah, it's been a pretty busy a few days, and it stays busy, I'm sure, until the time we get to the draft and maybe throughout the first round at least.

But it's been exciting as well. There's been, exactly, and it's not just been a bunch of little things. I mean, Alex Tuck is now in Washington. You've obtained the fourth overall pick for Bowen Byram. And last night, you know, we learned that Zach Benson, is signed to a seven-year deal. And I imagine none of this all happens in a vacuum. So how do you prioritize what to focus on at any given time is you're going through all these big decisions, the organization is making in a relatively short period? Yeah, I don't think the decision,

the timing of the decision really shows how much work we put into arriving at the decision. So we talked to talk pretty much for a year about possibility to extend the contract. And even before I started as a GM. We had made offers when Kevin Adams was here and continued to do that throughout the year. We had a dialogue open. And then, you know, at some point, we decided that let's go back at it after the season. And we did. And it didn't work out. And he wanted to get a change of scenery. So then we got what we could as conversation for the sign and trade. Bo Byron, same thing. Last year, when he signed a two-year contract. We were under the impression that that's all he wanted,

and that would take him to the unrestricted free agency. He had told us back then already that he wanted to be a number one defenseman, and that's why he didn't want to sign long term. Tried to convince him all year to reconsider getting into the July 1 here now that we could have extended him and would have and wanted to extend him, but he didn't want to do that, so that left us no option but to, to make the trade, which we did, and we're happy with the return right now.

And Benson, obviously a huge part of our future and present played great for us all year and was phenomenal in the playoffs. So we had talked to him about the extension for a long time as well. We ran into a problem when we signed Josh Stone, we should have signed Josh Stone and Zach Benson at the same time,

but we didn't have enough tagging. room if we wanted to still sign Alex Duck. So all those things tie together and then when you get through all of them and it needs to be in certain order and before a certain date and so forth. And we obviously didn't want a risk of getting anybody silly with an offer sheet for Zach Benson, who we want to keep here for a long time. Okay, just one thing we'll explain to the audience. What Yarmu means by tagging room is the simple way to describe it is you can't commit $300 million in salaries for the next season. So basically, Basically, there's an NHL rule that says you can't have more money on your team next season and the cap will allow you.

That's the easiest way to explain what he's discussing. Thank you. No problem. Because sometimes I have trouble understanding it. So there's a lot of things I want to ask you here, but we got some really interesting questions last night as you were doing all this. And number one, I think people know, like in a moment like this, you've got talk, you've got Byram, you've got Benson. And even though, as you mentioned, you've been dealing with a. for a long time. In a moment where you're making three big deals like that for 24 hours,

do you delegate or is it all you? No, I have a very group of people around me, and that's why I made a couple of key hires in bringing Mark Bergevin and Josh Flynn, who I work with in Columbus for years and years. We have great people in place here with Jerry Forden, Sam Ventura, the analytics guru and Mark Jacobowski. A lot of people around me that I lean on to make those decisions. You know, Mark Bergevin, I wanted him here because he sat in my seat so he can put himself into my shoes when we're making big decisions like that with players that we like who are popular, who we would like to keep.

It's hard to make that decision. But at the same time, you've got to think of the future of the club and the whole team as what we have to take out of the team to keep all of these guys that require a certain amount of money and take certain amount of space under the salary cap. It doesn't all fit. There's a limit to it. When good players get better, they get more money,

and then you always have to give up something to make room under the salary cap or stay under the salary cap. But you have final say on everything, right? Or do you give guidelines and say, like, Mark, if you're going to talk, let's say Mark is in charge of Byron. Do you say this is what you're allowed to do? Or like how does it all work? And so you make sure that nothing happens that comes back to you and you say, wait a second, that's not what I envisioned. No, I may, I'll make the final decision on each of them, but I do listen very carefully. I take everybody's opinion into

consideration before making the decision. And I'd like to arrive at a consensus. And very rarely we don't, whereas I decide against the majority of the group. I don't think that's happened too many times in my career because I hire those people for reason and I let them do their job and I appreciate and respect their opinion. Okay, the other thing I was curious about is, so the other night you're making the Byram deal

and San Jose is very interested and Chicago's very interested and I heard the Rangers were very interested and there were a bunch of teams that were very interested. I know you don't want to give away specifics and I understand that. But what I'm curious about is in those moments you've got

three or four teams coming after your player and how does it work? Do you say, does a team say, I'll give you this and do you shop it to other teams or do you say if you get, do this, you've got a deal? Or are you constantly saying, well, I've got this from someone

else? Like, how does that work in those moments? I think you sort of have a price set in your mind thinking that okay, this is something that they have for assets, this is what could get a deal done, and then you keep pushing. Obviously a very good situation

when you have several teams competing for the same player, and then they realize that there's competition. I'm sure they're all looking at the, who might be after a player, a certain player, let's say, who might be after Bo Byram. Those teams that were in it probably knew the other teams that were in it too, they know the assets that the other teams hold

that they might or might not be willing to put in the trade so they have to weigh in. I don't go around like a used car salesman saying that this is what I got offered now. You got to do better. This is what I got up. I don't do that. I don't like to operate that way.

But they all are sort of guessing and I'm always asking for make you best offer. Don't get around here and try to come back with another and another little bit more, just make your best offer and then we'll weigh against each other. And sometimes somebody didn't understand what I meant with the best offer

and then they make a better offer. So I'll have to listen to that too, obviously. But I try to keep it fair for everybody understanding with their homework that what the marketplace looks like and who might be competing against their bids. And then when we get our comfort level to our comfort level, then we'll make the deal.

So you decide, hey, you hit my target, it's over. Yeah, yeah. Like with Chicago, when they made their final offer, we felt that that was the best offer. We weighed the best two offers against each other, and we decided to make the deal with Chicago. When San Jose traded for the number nine pick, did you do a fist pop?

Well, you know, sometimes, you know, you have those talks, even when before they get the ninth pick or if somebody else, you know that they might be in and getting a pick number seven, whatever it may be. So you're kind of already in that process knowing that they might acquire that

and what will that do now if they put that in the deal. So, yeah, there's a lot going on in the background that never comes to the surface. Right. But some of your colleagues are better at listening as you say when it comes to

when you go, give me your best offer and we'll go from there. Yeah, you know, Because, you know, the final offer to me sounds like two final. So I keep asking for the best offer because, you know, I kind of take the best offer. It's like, okay, I'm going to be my best offer and this is the best offer and that's it. Yeah.

But, you know, there's a little wiggle room always for negotiation. But these weeks are, I mean, they're memorable ones for hockey fans that love the transaction and the news. And when this stuff hits the timeline, it feels like chaotic. And everyone's reacting to it. Is it chaos in your offices? Is it calm throughout? Like, what's it like on the inside when not just what the business you're doing, but you're keeping track of everything else going on around the league too.

Yeah, when we arrive at the decision to make a deal, we don't look back. We're, okay, we made a deal. We're happy with it. We're moving forward. And then the outside noise, we try to block it. Sometimes it's impossible with the phones and the social media. Everybody's on it. I got out of it so that I don't even have a burner or anything like that.

No, I don't need the aggravation. call will tell me if there's something that I need to know. And there's plenty of other guys on our staff that will tell me if there's something that I need to see or read. So I'm staying off of it. And it's a lot less headaches for me. But yeah, we just move forward. And I think that I don't think you should make a decision or sign something unless

you're happy and satisfied with it. ready to move up. It's 1.15 p.m. as we tape this on Thursday afternoon, what are the odds that you are drafting fourth overall on Friday night? I don't know if I want to put odds on it, but I've told, I've told everybody that we're open for business. We'd like to improve our team. So pick number four for the right price could be available. Pick number 20 could be available for the right price or a combination of the two if there's a player that we value that much. But it would take a lot for us to move from pick number four in particular. But we're looking to get stronger. We're really excited about our group and where we're heading and we're still young and we're going to get better just

by improving with experience and age. And I think last year's playoff experience is going to be huge for our group. But we also want to make sure that we get better. So if there's a player that will help our group grow and get better and stronger, we're ready to make a deal and a big one too. You mentioned Josh Flynn before. I remember a long time ago, I think before you even got to Columbus, Josh Flynn put together a chart that was sort of like

the draft value chart, what each pick was worth to trade. So I assume he still has it. We still have it. It's an other. So what is the number four pick worth on a chart? or there's a certain number value that's put in place for any pick and we look at it as if somebody wants to move up from,

if they have picked number 10, 11, whatever it may be, and another first round pick is it worth enough with those values to equal the value of the pick four? So that's a simple way to put it if it's just picks for picks. And then obviously if there's a player, then it's a whole different story. but yes, there's a numerical value for each pick and it goes down pretty fast after number one.

Yeah, so I've heard it goes like one very high, two pretty high, and then I heard it really dropped. It starts dropping pretty quickly. I don't remember the of the top of my head, but if I ask Josh, you'll know right away that. But that's true, right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Interesting. Really. Even from year to year where maybe some draft classes are viewed as deeper than others or? I think that's a little bit of a flaw in the value chart too, and we've discussed that, but that's an average of all the years that I understand. You assess that number to end the value for different picks.

It's just, you know, Yarmu, it's been, like, did you watch the playoffs after Buffalo was out? Did you keep watching? Almost every game, yeah. So when you, like, it was such, like, we were lucky enough to be part of that second round series, Buffalo, Montreal, just great hockey, the excitement of Montreal, the excitement of Buffalo. you could see like these fans deserved what they got, a playoff around win and almost the second one. So when you watch Carolina move on and win the cup

and you watch Vegas, but particularly the Carolina because it's in the east, like what did you see as the difference between them and the Sabres? Well, I think experience is one with Carolina. They've gone through it and disappointed several times and I think it teaches you what it takes to get through four playoff series. And, you know, everybody who's all over Carolina, yeah, you can make it to the conference final, but you can't make it any further. Well, now there's Stanley Cup champions.

And I think that if you look at any Stanley Cup champion, they've gone through that process. It doesn't happen where you all of a sudden make the playoffs, and then the next year you win the cup. I can't remember if that's ever happened. You know, even some of the dynasties like Edmonton, I've seen the documentaries on how they lost the islanders, and they saw how banged up they were after winning the cup and understanding what it takes to win. And so I think that experience is a big part of it,

and we just got a taste of it now this year, and I think, understand how hard it is to win the Stanley Cup. You know, obviously when you're watching the teams, that's one reason why I watch the playoffs every year, and watch the finals to see what makes a championship team. And we have a lot of those qualities. We have good depth. We have good center ice, strong center ice.

We have excellent defensemen. And we've gotten good goaltending this year too. It's easy position, scrutinized and criticized. And UPL had 9-10, save percentage this year. And Alex Lyon won a lot of games for us. and even Colton Ellis played some excellent hockey this year. So I don't think goaltending by any means is a weakness of our team. I think it's a strength of our team and the depth of our goaltending as well.

So I think we have a lot of those elements. Do we need to improve? Absolutely. Can we get something maybe from the outside to improve our chances? Yes, the answer is yes to that too. And that's why we're looking what there may be available for pick four, pick 20 or any other type of trade. But I think that when we have to be a draft and developed team, and we are, and our staff

has drafted with excellent results, especially some of the players like the young centers that I just mentioned, Oslo and Elenius picked in the mid-first, Kooli picked in the second round. They're all going to be really, really good NHL players. They already are. They're only going to get better. So I think the internal growth, the drive and desire of those players to get to the next level and the work ethic to do it, that's going to be the real key. And I think that's a huge part of the culture in Carolina.

I think it starts from their coach and the standards that he sets just with his own work ethic to show the players that, okay, here's what it takes to be a champion. He's done it as a player. and now it doesn't done it as a coach but what I've heard is that every player there is an excellent condition I think we took a huge step last season with that

with Brian Gallowance joining us from the US National Development Team program and he's an excellent strength and conditioning guy and I think some of our young players took huge steps into the right direction last season with him and continue to do that in this offseason

But I think those are the key things that we need to improve on, and we intend to do so. So you mentioned the experience of Carolina, and now, I mean, Tucker is elsewhere, Byron's elsewhere, two experienced guys. You mentioned all the guys that are either already here or are still coming and just getting started within the organization. So what's the priority this summer in terms of you

and where you want to go next? Yeah, the two players that you mentioned did not want to continue here, so we left us no option to do anything else, but to make a trade with Bo and sign and trade with Alex Tuck. And now we either need to look for something from the outside through a trade to replace him and also have our own projections internally who can replace them. And I have a lot of faith in some of the young players

that we have in our group to really take it to the next level. I'll mention one with after those three, young players that I mentioned. I think Jack Quinn grew a lot last year, and he was kind of snake-bitten a little bit throughout the season. He got a lot of chances. Didn't shoot with a high percentage, but it has an excellent shot.

I've said it before. I think he can get 30, maybe 40 goals a year when he gets into the prime of his career, and he's got excellent offensive instincts. He's fast. He's got great one-on-one skill. Tage Thompson gets 40 goals every year, and, you know,

he continues here for long term. So we have a lot of players that will now get a little bit more of added responsibility, added opportunity, whether it's first power play, second power play, or just ice time in general. So one player leaving is not going to decide the success of our forward group. One defenseman leaving is not going to decide the success of our D group. and the one thing that was our strength last year was our depth and the other strength of our team was that they were together in the battle they really got glued together

and on many different occasions when we had some of the hard-fought battles with the teams that were kind of testing if we're tough enough gritty enough and you know I think they grew an inch or two just going through those battles when you go through the state of Florida next year will you dress the Hanson brothers It certainly looks like teams are angling that way now with some of the trades.

But, you know, hockey is still hockey, and that's why they count the goals and whoever gets to more goals at the end of the game wins the game. But it's a hard-foot battle, and I've said it all along, the physicality and is a big part of the game. Sometimes intimidation can be a little part of the game too. and that's hockey.

That's why we love the game. I wanted to ask you, so Columbus and Buffalo, are there many similarities between living there or working for the organizations? Yeah, yeah. You know, I was fortunate enough

to be in Columbus for 11 years and work with the great management group and ownership there. And what I've gotten to know about Terry Buchula and Kim Buchula here, unbelievable owners, you know, right from the first day that I've joined here and the first day as a GM,

they've said to me that anything you need to win will support you. And I don't think you can ask for anything more as a general manager because we don't do this job for any other reason but to lift that cup at the end of the season. That's the main reason that I keep doing this and we'll try to keep doing it

as long as I don't have that cup. And if I have the cup, then we'll see again how old I am. But that's the goal. That's the dream. You know, you mentioned Terry Ruggula. I asked somebody, it doesn't work for the savers, but they're very connected in sports in Buffalo. I ask them about you, like what they've learned about you.

And they said that you are very good at saying, Terry, just let me work with this. Like, because they say he's a great owner. He's super passionate. He wants to win yesterday, but sometimes he needs someone to say, just let me work with this. And they said, you are very skilled at that. Well, I can be blunt with my opinions. You know, it maybe comes from my background of being finished, but I just always tell you what my opinion is and what I think of a thing, and I don't sugarcoat it.

And that's what I get paid for. How's your pickleball game? Oh, I was going to have to that. Great question. It's bad now because I've injured my calf, so I'm on the, I'm on the IR. Oh, no. What's the timeline look like? Four to five weeks, I think, the in a show.

Oh, geez. That's going to be a big part of the summer. That's heartbreaking. Now, okay, so I've heard, like, I heard Julian Breezeball is a good pickleball player. Who is the top executive level at the executive level, at the executive level, the H.L., who's the best? Chris Draper. He is. Really?

Marty LaPointe is his most improved player. Does you play in one of his fantastic suits, or does he play? I actually play with Marty LaPointe during the playoffs, and he's the most improved player on the NHL executive circuit. Chris Traper is the most consistent. Justin Williams, I don't know if he's in the executive level. He has close enough. It probably should be.

with his career and everything. But he's an excellent player as well. Awesome. You're a busy man. We really appreciate this. Who's your biggest rival? Okay. Who's my biggest?

I would always want to rival the best guys. That's the, that's the passion I have for the game. So I was told a story about you once, and I actually, with Pierre Dorian, used to be the GM in Ottawa, that somebody told you that Pierre Dorian was like an Olympic-level badminton player,

And you were so, like, you were like, I could beat that guy in badminton. There's no way he's no, is that story true? I don't think so. We never worked together with beer. And I don't think I've, but I have challenged a few guys that have said, because I played racquet sports all my life, so I play squash, played badminton, played tennis. And so I've had one TV guy in Finland said to me that he was top of Finnish, finish,

finish junior level squash, and we played squash at the world. World Junior is in Ottawa, and I beat him. But only because I could move better than him. He hit the ball better than me, but he had a little like to move. Not a playing way. Anyway, thanks very much, Jarmo. My pleasure. Thanks, guys.

Our thanks to Yarmou Kekalainen and Nicole Hendricks and Chris Durkin with the Sabres for making that conversation happen amidst a very busy week. One final reminder, the draft. Two-night. Pre-show on the air at 630 Eastern, 3.30 Pacific Time. The draft itself, a little after seven. Our crew live on the scene in Buffalo will have you covered. David Amber, Jason Bucula, Sam Cossentino, who you heard from in today's edition, Kobe Armstrong as well, myself, Elliot will be part of the show,

Aelish Forfar as well, and a special guest Sportsnet correspondent that you want to see and hear from as well. Looking forward to a fun night at Key Bank Center. All right, taking us out today, a track from Gizmo, Charlottetown Rockers, inspired by the guitar damaged pop of the 1990s, American slacker bands and their contemporaries on Canada's East Coast, a 120 minutes band for the Gen Z set.

They breathe new life into their vintage influences with a distinctive songwriting style and frenetic live show. The new single, Celestial, picks up right where 2023's EP. left off without skipping a beat. The new material finds the band mining similar sources but reaching

new heights. Embueing, they're carefully considered, structurally ambitious power pop songwriting with more unexpected twists and turns. Their debut full-length album, All Your Warships, will be released in October later this year. Some upcoming shows that you can catch

them at in July that will be at the Hillside Festival in Guelph, Ontario next month in August, at the Paris Drinks Festival in Paris. Ontario. Here is Gizmo and Celestial on 32 Thoughts, the podcast.