32 Thoughts: The Podcast - Summer Surprise

Episode Date: July 29, 2022

Hey! Jeff and Elliotte are back to provide you with a few updates on some of the moves that are yet to drop and the blockbuster trade of the summer. They chat Flames-Panthers and the trade that shook the hockey world (1:30), teams that showed interest in Matthew Tkachuk (10:15), Florida’s situation and some of their other off-season moves (14:15), what’s happening with Nazem Kadri (19:45), John Klingberg in Anaheim (24:50), arbitration cases (35:05), Oilers signing Jesse Puljujärvi (38:30), the Jets and Pierre-Luc Dubois (41:00), the Sharks find their head coach (43:30), and they discuss the Hockey Canada handling of sexual assault allegations (49:10)This podcast was produced and mixed by Amil Delic, and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman. Production support by Mike Rogerson.Audio Credits: Bally Sports Florida and CPAC.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Surprise, it's the summer and we're here. Welcome to 32 Thoughts to Podcast, Merrick alongside Elliot Friedman and Amil Delic. That is your teen fantastic band for this evening or this morning or this afternoon, depending on when you're listening to this podcast. I believe if I can pull back the curtain here, Elliot, by a couple of days and have a peek at what goes on and how this podcast is made. In a phone conversation between you and me two days ago, you referred to this as a Drake drop. Let's do a Drake drop right before a long weekend in Canada and give people a little flavor puck for their weekend. A surprise drop. And I did read too. I was looking at other surprise drops, I guess.

Beyonce's latest music leaked early and the Bayhive is very upset. Yes, of course. Anyway, welcome once again to the podcast. We have a lot of things to catch up on and we'll talk about Nazem Khadri. We'll talk about John Klingberg we'll talk about the San Jose Sharks and David Quinn we'll talk about Pierre-Luc Dubois towards the end of the podcast we will spend as much time as necessary dealing with the the hearings in Ottawa this week dealing with Hockey Canada so that will come up a little bit later on in the podcast. In the meantime, Elliot, we'll start it off with something we don't see very often. And when we see it, we should make note of it. And that is a good old fashioned hockey trade. And that is Matthew Kachuk, who signs an eight year, $76 million deal with the Calgary Flames and then gets traded along

with a conditional fourth to the Florida Panthers in exchange for Jonathan Huberto, Mackenzie Wieger, prospect Cole Schwent, and a first round draft pick in 2025. By the way, with surrendering that pick, now the Panthers have no firsts as it stands right now until 2026. Initial thoughts, although it's not exactly fresh, but your first thoughts on this one. Summer blockbuster. I think for a lot of people, it was fun to kind of cover that, just go through it, see something that big and a kind of trade that was that big and unexpected.

There was a lot of word Friday that Florida had emerged as the front runner, but the one thing I couldn't nail down until after the deal had happened, I believe that Uyghur was going to be in the deal. I wasn't sure that Huberto was. I thought maybe somehow it might have been another player or another way to get Florida to clear the space,

but it wasn't until the deal was done that I realized that they actually did put Huberto in it. And it's an incredible deal. I think aside from some of the players involved who it was just earth shattering for, I think a lot of people in the hockey world found it kind of fun. So a few things here. I mean, this is all coming on the heels of the Johnny Goudreau situation where he goes to the Columbus Blue Jackets.

And now, you know, the Calgary Flames lose two thirds of what was the best line in the NHL. I will stand and die on that hill from last season. That was, at least in the regular season, the best line in the NHL. But in this trade, like Brad Treliving still keeps their window open to be a competitive team. And however you feel about Jonathan Huberto,

or however you feel about the mixuberto or however you feel about the mix up front, there's one thing you look at now and you say, man, this Calgary blue line is all of a sudden really scary good. And that's a real sweet spot of the bat for their head coach, Daryl Sutter. They still have a chance to be really good. I think Calgary has some fascinating decisions ahead of them. And basically what it came down to, Jeff, is that they didn't get any offers of any other players that were as good as Hubert Owen Weeger. And that's what it came down to. And now the decision is going to be for them, how do they proceed? I do think before the season starts, and I don't have a timeline, but I do think before the season starts and i don't have a timeline but i do think before the season starts

they're going to go to both huberto and wieger and say okay if we are talking extensions here what are we talking about i think they'll have that picture in mind and whether they get deals done or not they'll know where those players stand and then they'll have decisions to make do they start the year with them? You know, do they see how the season goes? I had more than a few people say to me, they're going to be a good team. You know, what happens when they're a good team and they're still very much in contention in the Pacific division and the trade deadline comes up. I think Calgary has a lot of decisions to make. Like if I have any idea about the way Daryl

Sutter thinks, I would think this, I think he would look at this and say, I can win with this team. I think there's a lot of people in that organization and in the fan base who would look at that and say, I like that idea. I think the question is now becomes after what just happened with Goudreauau do you go through that again and i think that's one of the decisions that calgary is going to have to make now can i kind of just go through what i think the process was in this whole absolutely okay so this is how i think it all came down so goudreau signs in columb. They go to Kachuk and they say, okay, Matthew, where are we? So the trade happened last Friday, a week ago. I think on the Monday, so five days earlier,

the flames had started to reach out to some teams and say, Matthew Kachuk is on the market. Are you interested? And what I think had happened is, you know, sometime in the days before that, obviously Kachuk had told the Flames he wasn't signing long-term. And, you know, what someone told me that I thought was really interesting was that this is a case where you have a player who understands the business of hockey. You know, he's got a father who played,

a family that's been huge into the game. His brother obviously plays, his mother, his sister. Like, they're very smart about the sport and the business of the sport. And they said that that played a very big role here because Matthew Kachuk, to maximize what he could earn, really put everybody here in a good position to get a deal done. First of all, he goes to the flames and says, look, I'm not signing long term. Number two, because he was an RFA on the day of free agency, July 13th, he's allowed to talk to other teams. And I think other

teams had reached out to him because they knew even if he stayed in Calgary for another year, he was at least an unrestricted free agent in the year. You know, you're allowed to talk to him and say, you know, what are you thinking? What are your plans are? If we were to offer sheet for you or trade for your rights, what would it take? before matthew kachuk went to the flames and said i'm not going to sign long term he probably knew had a decent idea of who was interested in him and what those situations sounded like and someone said to me do not underestimate how much Kachuk's knowledge of hockey and the way hockey works played into this. Because he probably had, you know, I haven't spoken to him, but, you know, I think this is a fair thing to guesstimate. He had a good idea what was out there for him.

Now, one of the things I'd heard, and nobody would confirm this to me, but I do think it was possible. I think the Flames were worried that there was a team out there that might offer sheet him at just under $8.4 million. And the actual number is 8402975. 6.2975. If your offer was under that, but above 6.2 and change, the offer sheet compensation was a first, a second, and a third. So imagine if some team cooks it up with Matthew Kachuk, where they say, we'll offer sheet you, and then theames would be locked in. They would either have to accept the deal and not be able to trade him for a year, or they would lose Kachuk to the other team who then could sign him for eight years later, essentially making this a nine-year contract. And all they would get is a first, a second, and a third. I had heard that that scenario was out there. Now, would it have

happened? I don't know. But did the flames hear that rumor and say, we better make, protect ourself on this? I think it's possible. So that's why they took him to arbitration. And then on Friday was the deadline to accept his qualifying offer. So if Kachuk accepts his qualifying offer, then he's locked in at $9 million, but his trade value plummets because nobody can extend them until at least January 1st. So I think that between the Flames, Kachuk, the interested teams, and Kachuk gave the Flames a list, they were looking at Monday, Tuesdayuesday wednesday thursday friday to get this deal done like you think how long it takes to get a blockbuster done jeff like say the eichel deal the fact that everybody involved got this done in like five days it's really incredible so we'll get

to the teams in a second but that's what i think the machinations were that week with them taking him to arb, the offer sheet threat, the research could Chuck had done and getting it done on Friday. I think that all of that was playing out in the background. You know, all this time, when it became a pretty abundantly clear that Matthew Kachuk was going to be dealt, everybody circled St. Louis for, you know, albeit the obvious reasons. Like I know that there were some players from some teams that were on the list for Matthew Kachuk that went to their general manager and their manager, whether it was, you know,

salary cap considerations or it'd be too difficult of a deal to make. Like there were players that went to their GMs and said, hey, can we do this? And I think a lot of people wondered about the St. Louis Blues. Listen, you mentioned Matthew Kachuk and the Kachuk family. We saw this with Brady. We've now seen this with Matthew. This is a really highly intelligent hockey family who knows how to make things work in their favor.

They know the levers to pull. They know which ways to go. I think a lot of us thought that Matthew Kachuk was going to going to try to maneuver himself to st louis did you i did i think it really came down to three teams at the end for how many teams were on his list and i think there were around six what i heard is it really came down to st louis carolina and and florida and i think the problem was st louis now jeremy rutherford in The Athletic, who did a lot of good work on this, he said that he heard that the offer from the Blues came down to Scandella Tarasenko Plus. Now, I'm going to amend that only slightly. I don't necessarily think the offer from

the Blues to the Flames was Scandella and Tarasenko. But where I do think Jeremy is right is that I believe the Blues couldn't make the deal unless both Scandella and Tarasenko were off their roster. So I think the Blues in that time were trying to find ways to, where can we move Scandella? Where can we move Tarasenko so we could make this deal work? Like, I don't think Tarasenko was going to Calgary because he's got a no trade clause

and he would have to agree to go there. Correct. And I don't think that made any sense for Calgary. So I think if Tarasenko was going to be dealt, I don't think it was the Flames. But I think the question was, could they find somewhere else to go? Like, I think it's possible, possible,

I don't know for sure, that Scandella could have gone to the Flames. But I don't think Tarasenko was going there. But I think that showed in a short, it was such a short time span for all the reasons I just mentioned. I think that St. Louis just couldn't do it. I think what they indicated was to do this, we have to be able to move both Tarasenko

and Scandella. I don't think it was necessarily both to Calgary, but I just don't think that they could do it. And that's why St. Louis was out at the end. We should never be surprised that Carolina's involved when there's a big name player on the market. We've talked about that plenty of times and there's Carolina again, Elliot. It's the dundon way we want you in on every big name doesn't mean you have to do it but it does mean you have to investigate it yeah i think they were in i think they were prepared to do an extension with kachuk i don't know if it would have been the same extension but it would have been a big one they were prepared to do it i believe you know the name netch ass has been reported yeah all I could say to that is I believe it could

very well be true. I don't know for sure, but I believe it. At the end of the day, the reason that Florida won was because Calgary looked at Huberto and Uyghur and they said, these are the best players that we can get. And it opens up some possibilities for us, which Calgary is now going to investigate. So I think that's why Florida won.

Speaking of Florida, is it too easy? This is the way that I first looked at it. First of all, when the shock of the deal itself and you see the names involved, when that shock wears off, I said to myself, I wonder if this is a situation where Bill Zito looked at Jonathan Huberto and Mackenzie Wieger pending unrestricted free agents and said, re-signing these guys to the deal that they're going to want slash will probably get is going to destroy our salary cap. We're better off turning this into a Matthew Kachuk for his compensation. Is that too easy a way to look at this? I don't think that's too easy. I think Florida had to make a very quick decision. I think once Florida found out that they were on Kachuk's list,

they had to make a very, very fast call. Now, obviously they hadn't gone down the road really far on a Huberto extension, but I think we all knew what it was probably going to be. Barkov got eight times 10. I think they knew that that was going to have to be the case for Huberto, that it was probably going to be an eight times 10 ish extension. You know, someone, and this is another team, they said to me that they wondered if the Sergeyev extension in Tampa, be an eight times 10 ish extension. You know, someone, and this is another team. They said to me that they wondered if the circuit have extension in Tampa, which is eight times eight and a half would have made it harder for Florida to keep Uyghur. Was it going to mean that that was the extension they were going to have to do with Uyghur or at least something closer to that? And I think what Florida decided to do is Kachok will be 25 in December. Uyghur will be 29 in January. Huberto just turned 29. I think they made the age curve gamble.

I think the other thing too is for this year, Kachok's number makes it very hard for them. For example, if they don't make any more changes, they might only be able to carry 20 players on opening night this year. They're over right now. So they might be right at the minimum on opening night. But I think they look at it as in the future, they'll have more room. Like, I think Florida is taking a gamble here,

that they're taking a gamble where after a season where they won the President's Trophy and won a playoff round for just the second time in franchise history, they have taken a bet that, yes, they might not be as good a team next year, but they believe in the long run they will be better. It is a big, bold bet.

That is their bet. If you're someone, and I count myself as one of these people, that love the Florida-Tampa games, those games just got spicier. And Matthew Kuchuk showed up with the Panthers saying all the right things about the Tampa Bay Lightning. You had a big rivalry with Edmonton, and you've called them the team up north like the Ohio State people do. And now you've got the team on the other side.

How excited are you to get into a Battle of Alberta type thing with the Lightning? Yeah, I mean, I said it earlier. I hate Edmonton, but I hate Tampa more now. So I'm excited for those games. They're the team to beat right now. They've had the most success. It seems like, you know, for us, we're going to have to go through them at some point. So I'm really excited

for that challenge. Playing them not as much as I'm going to play them now. They're a very good team. They play hard and they're a little bit built different now than they were, let's call it a few years ago. They're still a team to beat, and I'm sure we're going to have our hands full with them. They've had the most success, and they know what it takes to win, and we're going to learn that. All of a sudden, this rivalry just hit a new height because Matthew Kachuk is now involved. Hornquist is one thing, and he's a pain to play against. We all know because Matthew Kachuk is now involved. Like Hornquist is one thing, okay?

And he's a pain to play against. We all know that. But adding Matthew Kachuk, that is a whole new level. Like no one likes playing against like Ryan Lomberg. Like he's a, to play against is nasty. No one likes playing against Radko Gudis. But people really hate playing against Matthew Kachuk. All I'm saying, Frege, those games just got better.

Only Bill Zito and the Panthers can understand this. I think about that sweep to the lightning. So do I. And you go back to that Stanley Cup final this year, Colorado and Tampa, and the number one thing that stood out to me about that Stanley Cup final was there were, what, 50 players who played in that series, right? Ish.

There were no passengers in that series. None. And everybody in that series was willing to run through a wall to win the Stanley Cup on both those teams. Everybody played hard. Like, I'm not saying that Huberto and Uyghur are soft or the reasons why Florida lost, but I do think that I could see the Panthers looking at that loss and then looking at the two teams that played six incredible games

for the Stanley Cup and, you know, how hard those teams played. And they said that our current group, as it's constituted, can't do that, teams played. And they said that our current group as it's constituted can't do that. And we have to send a loud message that we don't think it's capable of doing that. You have a final thought on this deal before we move on? Florida, I thought, made a couple of really interesting bets around free agency, Colin White, Balsers. I'm curious to see how these gambles work work I think Colin White's a good bet at NHL minimum Balsers I'm surprised he's an NHL minimum guy like you wonder is there something there that you don't know about you know Florida they're making those gambles this year I I really do

think what it came down from the Panthers is they said you know one year of pain and we think in the long run we're going to be better. And we'll find out on the ice. Okay, so here's the conspiracy theory. Okay. As we move on from the panthers and flames talk the conspiracy theory is nasim kadri has a deal with the new york islanders and lou's going to hide it until october well i've heard that and it's not like it's ridiculous to believe that right no it's not i will this. There are teams that suspect the Islanders have some business done.

I've had teams that have told me they think that it's very possible Noah Dobson's got a contract extension done. Okay. Is it true? I don't know. Is it out of the realm of possibility? No.

Look what he did last year when he signed Palmieri and a couple other guys. I mean, Tom Brady is going to throw his first touchdown pass of the season next year and the Islanders will be sending out press releases that they just signed a bunch of guys. So look, he's got two defensemen he's got to sign, Dobson and Romanov. Nobody would be surprised if he's got business done there. And again, he might have to do things to open things up. This is what I think about Kadri. I think the Islanders are in it. I thought Colorado was out of it, but someone

said to me, don't be so fast. But what I do think is that I know there's this rumor around that they'll trade Gerrard to make room for Kadri. I don't believe that's true. From what I can tell, that's not what the Avalanche are willing to do. And they have made that clear that they're not moving Gerard to make room for Kadri. I think what's happened here is that the Avalanche are still interested in Kadri, but Kadri knows that if he wants to go back there, it's got to be in a certain area. The Avalanche have let him know kind of the parameters about what they can do and what they can't do. So I think it's Colorado. If I had to guess, and believe me, this is a guess, and I would like to stress that it's a guess. I think Colorado and the Islanders are probably the favorites.

I think there's been some interest from Calgary, but I, I find it very hard to quantify and I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about Detroit kicking around there too. You know, it could always be someone other than those four, but that's kind of where I think it is. Calgary, I think, is in this, but I've really found it difficult to figure out how serious

their interest is. I've had some people tell me they think it's serious. I've had other people say to me, no, they've got to figure out Huberto Uygh wieger first where it's going before it can be serious but one of the things that i do think calgary is weighing is does it make them easier to sell huberto wieger on a winner if cadre's there just a matter of can you fit all the pieces of the puzzle together but i do think calgary is considering that whole idea and so instead of saying is there a deal in the drawer with the islanders no i don't think there is but i think cadry knows like the teams that are still in on him i think he kind of knows what the deals are and the question is can he just you just say yes? Or do those teams say, if you say yes, there's some other things we have to do to get that there.

The reason I was on Detroit from the get-go here with someone like Nazem Qadri is, and we saw this play out in free agency, Steve Eisenman, clearly, whether this was a director from up on high or whether this was of his own volition has, you know, gone the route of, you know, the route of you know trying to take the next step or putting players in place to help the red wings take their next step and they need help down the middle after dylan larkin there's that 2c hole that's sitting right there they have plenty of cap space available nazem kadri has won his stanley cup detroit is close enough to home to call it close enough to home that I'm comfortable

here. Just sort of added up in a lot of ways for me for each. That's the reason I tried to marry Nazem Khaji with the Detroit Red Wings. The thing that I wonder about with Colorado is obviously the cap space issue, but not just the cap space issue right now, but the impending Nathan McKinnon extension. So the last year of his deal, and then but the impending Nathan McKinnon extension. You know, so the last year of his deal, and then there's a new Nathan McKinnon deal, which will complicate. Yes.

Every new contract for the avalanche. So that's the one that I look at for each for Colorado. Allenders. I don't put anything past Lou Lamarillo. Yeah. I don't put anything past him hiding it until the very last minute as well. It could happen. And it's hard for me to tell how serious Calgary is about this one.

I think they've had talks, but I don't know. I get really mixed messages and, you know, I, I am really trying not to do a ton of work at this time. Uh, so I'm not pursuing it as hard as I normally would, but I do get mixed messages on it. as I normally would, but I do get mixed messages on it. From Nazem Qadri and his situation to defenseman John Klingberg and his. Now, the latest news. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Okay, so Elliot, you knew that we wouldn't be able to get through a surprise podcast without having to do an insert.

So last night when we recorded this pod, we did a whole section on John Klingberg, what was going on between him getting new representation, what the market was going to be like, his options, etc., etc., etc. And on this Friday, July 29thth he signs one year deal with the anaheim ducks and aav of seven million dollars your thoughts on this one well i think what happened was i was talking to another agent not any of the agents that were involved here and you know just said okay when you take over a client in the middle of a free agency like happened here how does it work what do you do what's the process and what he was telling me was that you generally have an idea of what the market

is and free agency but basically you have to do a deep dive into what the market is for this player so i think what was going on was his new representation at Newport was basically calling around everywhere saying, I heard you were in on my client on Klingberg. What were you offering? What were you talking about? What was being discussed? Or maybe you called teams even that are out saying, look, I'm new. Did you have any interest in Klingberg? What could you do if you still wanted to be in? And the agent said to me, and this is, again, as an agent who's not involved in this, he said, sometimes the toughest thing is, and in Klingberg's case, and Jeff, you actually,

I should say this first, Jeff, I know this was something you were following during the year. What did you think was kind of on the table during the season for him? I believe there was only one significant offer from the Dallas Stars, and that was early in the season. And that was, I don't know if it was as high as 58, but it was somewhere in that ballpark over eight years.

I'm pretty sure that Klingberg wanted something in the 60s. Klingberg was very much looking at what Darnell Nurse got and Seth Jones and Zach Wierenski, etc., Dougie Hamilton. And he wanted something in that neighborhood. But I believe it did get up as high as the high 50s over eight years. Like I defer to you. I know you really worked this one. So I had heard less than that.

But it's not like it was really far less than that, that you and I are going to go into the octagon over it. So what this agent told me is that that's the toughest thing about this is you have to sit down with this player in this case, Klingberg, and you have to say, look, whatever's happened, it's over. And it's a hard thing to do, but you have to get it in your head that whatever happened earlier in the year, it's not there. Like you're not getting that, at least not now. You're not getting that. And you have to get it into your head. Okay.

I'm not getting that. And that's, you know, imagine anybody out there listening to this. Imagine that was your situation before and where you are now. It's not something that's easy to do. It's something you really have to work it's not something that's easy to do. It's, it's something you really have to work to accept. So that's one thing. And then the next thing you have to do is you have to have an honest conversation about what do you want? You know, do you want to take the best offer? Like one thing I heard that really changed is that Klingberg,

there was a time during free agency where teams were telling me he didn't really want to take a one-year deal. But then you have to honestly say to him, John, what if their best option is a one-year deal and then we reset? You have to get the idea of one year in a good place might be really good for him. And when I look at this, he gets $7 million in that area, which is not an insignificant number. But number two is he's going to have opportunity. You know, this to me is a really interesting move by the Ducks. First of all, we're all looking at them and saying, okay, how are you going to get to the floor? Well, now we have a good idea.

This kind of deals with them on the floor. Yeah. But the other thing it does is it allows Klingberg. He knows he's going to play. He knows he's going to play. He knows he's going to have big responsibility. He's going to get an opportunity to show himself. And the other thing is it's going to make it very easy for the Ducks to flip them at the deadline if they're not in it. And we're not expecting them to be in it.

It's a good situation for Klingberg. So I think what he kind of got here, Jeff, was in this very difficult situation for him, the best of both worlds. He got a big number in a place where he's going to play, and there's going to be plenty of flexibility to move him at the deadline to a team that needs him. It looks to me, and you can tell me if you disagree, that he made the best of a really rough situation. He did. And I think a lot of things changed for John Klingberg when the Carolina Hurricanes made the move for Brent Burns. There were teams that were out there, three-year deals, four-year deals.

I believe that Carolina and Carolina was around Klingberg pretty much all season long, off and on with the Dallas Stars. It seems though, as if when the Burns deal was made Carolina and their interest in Klingberg went away, but they were probably the only team that were willing to go term and come close to the term that John Klingberg wanted. But then that, as I just mentioned,

laugh. By the way, just so you know, I did have some dispute over that Carolina. Some people said to me that the Carolina was not willing to go as far. I don't think they were going to go seven. I don't think it was something like that. But it was more term.

It was more. Put it this way. Maybe I misspoke. It was more term than other teams were willing to go. It was farther than other teams. There was some threes. There was a lot of ones, obviously. But some threes and some fours out there. all year long jeff we were sitting there saying like

the kraken made a lot of sense yeah i also think they came in lower than what klingberg had maybe hoped or expected i think they were in there but i just think not to the point where uh he was hoping but you know like he lands in his best possible situation and i hope he makes the best of it because you know this happens there will be situations people misread the market and somebody ends up sitting there saying oh boy you know i like i've had contract negotiations where i've won before and i've had contract negotiations where i've lost before and nothing obviously to this level but I know what that's like when you look back and you say boy was I I really wrong about this and it it's a hard thing the one thing that I looked at with Klingberg once it seemed like the big deal was gone was what

the UFA defense market was going to look like next summer and it's travis sanheim it's mackenzie wieger it's matt dumba it's damon severson it's eric johnson like there's a skill set that distinguishes john klingberg away from that group like this isn't you know this isn't like if you look at your career just like year to year to year to year you you can get frustrated. But if you say, okay, here's where I want to be in five years, here's where I want to be in seven years, you might look at this and say, maybe the best possible thing for John Klingberg,

for him not to try to ring the bell this summer, but just sign the one-year deal and then try to ring the bell next summer when your competition is Sanheim, Uyghur, Denver, Stevenson, and Johnson. You know, the cap probably won't go up a ton next season. So there may be this situation again. The one thing I always felt is you should bet on yourself. You should believe in yourself.

You name some really good defenders there, there's some good defensemen out there. But you always have to believe, hey, if I do the job that I'm supposed to do and I do it well, things are going to be okay for me. And if I was John Klingberg, that's the way I would think. You have to bet on yourself. Like we said, Jeff, and this is the toughest thing about what he's just been through. What was available in Dallas, that's over now. How do you rebuild? How do you get yourself back into that positive frame of mind?

And he's taken the first couple of steps toward that. It was funny. I was talking to another coach about Klingberg and they was watching him during the playoffs and, you know, he's fighting Matthew Chuck and he's battling the Calgary flames. And he said, he saw a player that knew that his contract situation was going to be a challenge. And that was a player who was trying to send a message to the entire league that, look, I'm worth what I think I should get. Because not only am I a great offensive player, but I'm a battler, too. Look at me standing up to Matthew Kachuk. offensive player, but I'm a battler too. Look at me standing up to Matthew Kachuk.

And, you know, he just said, like, there's a lot going on in your mind right now. There's a lot you're dealing with. I think that what Klingberg has shown here is he's ready to reset and restart. And that's the best thing you can do. It's the only way you can proceed is to find the best possible attitude and the best possible belief in yourself. The one thing that is unspoken here is we continue just to focus on where Klingberg is going to land. And now he's landed in Anaheim is a quick thought on this one. That's a big hole in the Dallas defense. Like I know that,

you know, defensively John Klingberg left some people wanting, but as far as exits and entries and moving the puck, listen, Miro Heiskanen is elite, and we know that. But after Miro Heiskanen, there's no one that really has John Klingberg's skill set.

Not Suter, not Lindell, not Hockenpah. Thomas Harley's a young player. That's a really big hole in Dallas's blue line now, Elliot. Yes, but I think they knew it was one coming. I thought they made a really interesting bet in Colin Miller. Yeah. He's not Klingberg, but he's got ability.

And I thought that was a really good bet for Dallas. Right hand shot. Klingberg lands. The Ducks get their man. Now back to our program. We do believe some things are coming to a conclusion, and Ducks get their man. Now, back to our program. We do believe some things are coming to a conclusion, and that is arbitration cases.

What do you hear, what do you know about Jesper Bratt and the New Jersey Devils? Well, first of all, we should congratulate Matthew Joseph, the latest player to sign to avoid arbitration and signing a big four-year deal, just under $3 million a season. Good for him. I know you and I are both members of the Matthew Joseph Fan Club, a very exciting off-season for the Ottawa Sanders.

So Jesper Bratt, I think there's a couple of cases still remaining in arbitration, have a lot of people really interested. One would be Mangiapane, that's on the 5th. Kyler Yamamoto, that's on the 7th. Lawson Kraus is another one that has a couple people really curious that's on uh the eighth but Bratt is on the third and you know nobody's really talking here so it's hard to figure out exactly what's going on but it didn't sound like there was a lot of gain being made between Bratt and the Devils on a long term extension I could always be wrong and one phone call could change it we could drop the podcast and

he could have an eight-year 11 billion deal and i hope for the devils and their fans and brat that happens but it just didn't appear to be trending that way i've written about it and talked about it before like those have been tough negotiations in the past between brat and the devils and the player has been great for them and that's been a great organization for him but those negotiations have been really intense and you know we've had one actual arb hearing in the last two years i just look at brat and the devils and I'm like, does everybody really want this? I don't think so. I can't see it.

I don't considering how important this guy is for the New Jersey devils and how good he is and what he means to that team. If I am New Jersey, like put this way, I always try to put myself. Okay. If I'm a fan, do I want this to go to arbitration?

Do I really want that? Knowing what happens when that doorration? Do I really want that knowing what happens when that door closes? Do I really want that? Does the player want that? Does Tom Fitzgerald really want that? I don't think anybody does here. The agent there is Rick Comerow, and it should be mentioned that he's the agent for Dadanov. So this year he did, you know, he really stood up for his client. Yep. in that whole

situation with his trade and the golden night. So he stands up for his clients. He's a grinder. And I just think that it hasn't been easy. And I know a lot of teams are kind of watching this one. Where does this go? Are they able to find common ground here because if you look some of the deals that have been signed for top ufa forwards you know brad had a big season last year and if he continues having those kinds of numbers he's gonna be in the eight million dollar range wow good for him you have a thought on r Ryan Donato and how much, if at all, he left on the table to stay? Signed for 1.2 in Seattle,

and I think he had some bigger numbers out there. I just think that offensive players, you know, Seattle made a heck of a deal for Bjorkstrand. Seattle knows they've got to score this year. I just heard Donato thinks he's going to be in a position to score there. We should mention Pugliarvi. So Yossi Pugliarvi avoids Arbenz signs a one-year $3 million deal. So he signed a $3 million deal, all salary. And the thing that's most interesting about that is

there was someone who said to me, actually, I have to say this. There was more than one person who said to me. There were a couple of people who texted me when he signed and said, find out if that is a salary or a signing bonus involved. And it was all salary. And I said, okay, what's the deal here? And they all said to me that one of the things they were wondering was, would Edmonton pay him a signing bonus so that his actual salary for next season was lower? Because they were wondering if it would make it easier to trade him.

To trade him? Yes. So just pay money for him to go away? Well, they were saying like, look, if Edmonton wanted to trade him, then the easier play might be signing bonus. Pay some of it. Yeah. So whoever gets him next.

I get it. But I think the main issue is the AAV though, isn't it, for teams? More so than are we getting them at a bargain next year? Yes, but money is always a thing. Sure. Yeah. I don't disagree. And I think we're all wondering the same thing too.

I know some people on social media may think that a decision has been made. I don't know that. Do you get the sense that a final decision has been made on Polly Arvey and Edmondson? Well, you have a theory on someone they're looking at, right? Oh, yeah, I do. Sorry, didn't mean to remind you. Didn't mean to wake you up over there. That's fine.

No, usually you're the one that ignores the other person on the microphone here on this podcast, but I guess I did that to you. I wonder about the Oilers and Phil Kessel. I wonder if at the end of arbitration, when contracts are more settled and there's a brief lull or a pause and everyone can step back and see what they have and what everybody else has, I do wonder about Edmonton and Phil Kessel. I wonder if he could end up there. That's an interesting idea. Why not? I mean, he was in a difficult situation with the Arizona coyotes. He'd score there.

He'd score. No denying that. Put it out there. And if it happens, everybody, please remember it. And if it doesn't, please ignore.

I just put out that I, I wonder about Phil Kessel and the Edmonton Oilers. Just like I wonder about Pauly Harvey and teams like the Detroit Red Wings and the Carolina Hurricanes as well. Like if it's not going to work in Edmonton, I wonder about those two as potential partners for the Oilers. Okay, so Winnipeg, Elliot. Pierre-Luc Dubois took his qualifying offer from the Jets, one year, $6 million. Okay, so Winnipeg, Elliot.

Pierre-Luc Dubois took his qualifying offer from the Jets, one year, $6 million. Also downplayed comments made by his agents about a desire to play with the Montreal Canadiens. Pat Brisson having said, quote, Montreal is a place, a city he'd like to play in. That's all I can say about that. Dubois said, quote, you hear stuff that I want out of Winnipeg.

If I wanted out, I would have asked for a trade. I didn't ask for a trade, not for one second. It didn't cross my mind for one second to ask for a trade. So took his qualifying offer next season. He's a restricted free agent with arbitration rights, one year away from UFA status. How do you see the situation with Pierre-Luc Dubois? I don't see it playing out any other way than I've previously said. When Pierre-Luc Dubois says he did not ask for a trade

from Winnipeg, I believe that to be true. Like we talked about earlier, I just think he told them two years and then I'm going to test the market. And I'm with a lot of other people who said Montreal. I think that's the most likely destination. Although, like I tell people, a lot can happen in two years. But, you know, we have to get from here to there. I definitely believe there were trade talks. You know, the one thing about Kevin Sheveldayoff is he is extraordinarily patient. He is very, very patient.

He was very patient with Jacob Truba. He's been very patient in some other situations. And I just think that's the way he's going to play this out. I think it's possible that the Jets had some stuff going on. I think they were talking about a few different scenarios. Obviously, nothing big came to fruition. I think once Dubois took his qualifying offer, I think at the time they just said, okay, we're good with that and we'll go from there. But I just think that the Jets have made it very,

to me, what they're saying is, look, we understand how Dubois feels, but we have to handle it the best way for the Winnipeg Jets like they're not just going to trade him somewhere because he wants to go they're going to do what's best for their team and I think there were some other teams that kicked tires on Dubois too that looked at it and said I think there was at least one team that said look our window to win is in the next couple of years. Can we work out something where he comes here for a couple of years?

Then he can go wherever he wants to go. But I guess they just didn't find a deal to their liking. I do want to ask you about the San Jose Sharks and they named David Quinn, their head coach, takes over from Bob Bugner. Quinn was most recently a candidate for the Boston Bruins job. That went to Jim Montgomery.

We last saw him behind an NHL bench with the New York Rangers. He coached the U.S. men's hockey team in Beijing. Mike Greer, in his quote, said, his previous NHL, this is interesting, his previous NHL head coaching experience is valuable to us as he implements a system that will fit with our philosophy of being a hard team to play against. We are extremely happy to have him as part of our organization, our philosophy of being a hard team to play against. Mike Greer saying that's one of

the reasons why they've hired Dave Quinn. It sounds by the way, like Ryan Worsofsky, who we saw win the Calder Cup with the Chicago Wolves, may join him as an assistant on that bench. A couple things. First of all, it wasn't until after Quinn was hired that Montreal announced Stéphane Robida as the new assistant coach for Martin Saint-Louis. I had wondered if Quinn did not get the job in San Jose, san luis i had wondered if quinn did not get the job in san jose would he rejoin jeff gorton in montreal as marty san luis assistant now i can't say for sure that would have happened but

the timing is interesting quinn gets announced and robada is uh announced in montreal a couple days later so i i wondered if that was a possibility. The one thing I always say is David Quinn, no matter what you think about someone who does in their first job, you always learn things. Like when you get fired, you always say, you know what? I wish I would have done this better. I would have done that better if I had a second chance, you know, I would do this. And I'm open-minded about that. Like every coach has things they do right. Every coach has things they've done wrong.

I was shocked by some of the reaction to it. Like I don't really check replies on tweets much anymore. But, you know, when we reported that, you know, Quinn was, was going to be the guy, I heard there was a lot of negative feedback. I think people deserve to show, I mean, I know Twitter is not the place for a lot of rational, deep-rooted thinking, but people deserve the right to show that they've learned their lessons. Okay, what did I do right?

I'm going to make sure I continue to do that. What did I do wrong? Okay. I always think people deserve the opportunity to show they've learned their lessons. So I'm curious to see, you know, how it's going to go and what it's going to be. You know, for one thing, he's going from one of the biggest pressure spots to a place where you can grow a little bit. You know, I'm looking forward to seeing David Quinn and saying, okay, this is what I learned last time out. And I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Everybody deserves that opportunity to do that. Yep. Amen. Oh, you know, if I could just mention something. So just about the Sharks, you know, they had a really, really hard draft with the sudden passing of Brian Marchment. And, you know, I went to the Memorial in Oshawa at the home of the generals. First of all, I wanted to say, Louis de Brusque, I didn't know that he was going to be

the MC for the event. So when he walked up and I saw him, I was like, oh, wow. Louis did an incredible job. He ran the event and the speeches were really, really well done. There were a lot of people there, you could tell. They were still in absolute shock, Jeff, but they spoke so well. Dion Phaneuf, I didn't realize that Brian Marchman and Dion Phaneuf were very tight. They became very close friends when they were together in Calgary. PhaneF, it was very hard for him to talk. He's a very stoic guy, but he got up there and he did it. And Mike Ricci came up after a video and you could tell it was very hard for him to collect his thoughts. Scott Thornton actually had his wife, Joelle, go up with him to support him while he spoke. I mean, all the speakers, I'm sorry if

I'm leaving anyone out off the top of my head. There were a lot of people there still in shock. They really spoke beautifully. The people I really wanted to single out was Brian Marchman's father sat there in a shark's jersey with his wife and he got up to speak. He wasn't supposed to, but he got up to say a few words towards the end. But also Brian Marchman's sisters, I believe they were, if I remember correctly, they were the first two speakers to get up there. They were hilarious. Like I didn't know Brian Marchman that well. I just wanted to go out of respect. I

don't want to claim that I was like a close friend or anything like that. But from what I knew about Brian Marchment, the way his sisters spoke, they sounded like Marchments. Like it was really, really something. And I know the Sharks organization's been hurting and I know the Marchment family and the friends have been hurting. And, you know, I just wanted to say the memorial, the people, there was a, there was a really nice turnout in support of them. And the people who spoke, you could tell they were still hurting and they all did a phenomenal job. Okay, welcome back to the program. Elliot, two more days of hearings in Ottawa this week about the handling of the 2018 sexual assault case involving members of the Team Canada World Junior Squad. Some headlines.

A third-party investigation has been launched with the victim participating. London police have reopened the criminal investigation. Hockey Canada CEO Scott Smith says he has no plans to step down, feels he can lead the change that Hockey Canada needs. There were calls, as we all saw, from various MPs of all federal parties for him to step down. Sheldon Kennedy, an abuse survivor himself, called for Smith to step down along with the resignation of Smith's leadership team and board of directors as well. Kennedy is, of course, the co-founder of the Respect Group, whose goal is to

eliminate bullying, abuse, harassment, and discrimination. This is the group that now works with NHL teams to prevent these things from happening within their organizations. There's a lot here, and we're going to spend as much time as we need to discuss them. Where would you like to begin? Jeff, I thought that Sheldon Kennedy's statement was earth-shaking. Yep. Look, there's people at Hockey Canada saying, well, we don't want to leave. We want to be part of the change.

We want to be part of the solution. I just don't know how you can sell that after that Sheldon Kennedy statement. If I was a sponsor, how are you going to convince me that you're serious after seeing that? So I think there's going to be change. serious after seeing that. So I think there's going to be change. Now, the person who I think was the most impressive throughout any of these hearings was Danielle Robitaille, the lawyer who's investigating it. After watching her testify, I feel very confident in her own self-belief, her own ability. It's very clear that she's the adult in the room. She's got a process.

She's got a plan. And look, we still don't know with any certainty. We still don't know exactly what happened in 2018 at that event in June. But after watching her testimony and having her explain it, you have to believe that we're going to get there. Like she had one comment about it takes time to do this properly. But I would say that an investigation of breaches of a code of conduct is different from say, Investigation of breaches of a code of conduct is different from, say, researching for an article or for a publication in a newspaper.

There are obligations to due process and fairness. There are obligations to notify respondent witnesses of the allegations that they are faced with. And so it's not a matter of simply walking through every door and opening every window. There is a gold standard in terms of how one proceeds through these investigations. I appreciate that it's very frustrating to Canadians that we don't have an outcome yet. This is something that we have seen in the area of sexual violence in the justice sector as well.

And what I can say is justice takes time. And my investigation is taking time. But justice and fairness sometimes take time. After I heard her talk, I believe that we were going to get the answers that everybody's looking for. Whether everybody likes the answers or not, I believe in Danielle Robitaille's ability to get them. But again, I don't understand how anybody can believe there aren't going to be changes.

There are going to be changes. First of all, I want to give credit to our team that's covering this. Paul Grant, Ian McIntyre, Emily Sadler. They're the three who are leading our coverage. Paul Grant asked after the second day of testimony if Canada was going to play at the upcoming World Juniors in August because there was a rumor going around. First of all, there were rumors, would the tournament even happen? And that's a double IHF decision. But there are also rumors that maybe Canada wouldn't play. Paul asked, and he was told the answer was that Canada is going to play. We talked about this. Should Canada play? And I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Your position was they should, though, right? The players should be allowed to play because they had nothing to do with that that's my position yes i i understand and i want to get into the the women's letter um from marie philippe poulin and their decision to to play at the world championships but i i believe the team canada should play yes where i agree with you is that it's not these young players fault for what happened in 2018 or we should also mention now 2003 yes and all we've heard right now so far are allegations and we don't know the full scope of the story but it sounds heinous if any part of that is true it's's awful. It's beyond awful. Really, it's brutal. The one thing I think is that we have to stop this. We have to stop these kinds of stories. They are doing real damage to the sport. We're seeing sponsors pull out. And even at the NHL level, there are people saying

it's bad. My rule in life as a human being is try to treat other people well. I don't always succeed. I'm not perfect, but I try to treat other people well and respectfully. And this is the fact that it's happening and we're getting like constant allegations like this and these stories keep coming out. It's so bad for the sport. You have to do something major to show that you're serious. And the only reason I felt that maybe Canada shouldn't play was because it would show that they're serious. That, no, it wouldn't be fair for these kids. It really wouldn't be fair for these particular kids. But only by doing something like that

can you really show that you're serious about the problem. People would look at that and say, that's a serious consequence. I think you can still do things that demonstrate that you're serious about changing all of this without not allowing these kids to play in this tournament or suspending all Hockey Canada activity immediately? I mean, this is one of the things

that a couple of people from the women's national team mentioned to me recently. And they issued their statement, demanding a seat at the table to fight for the truth. Marie-Philippe Poulin's letter, you know, voicing concerns about what are, you know, freezing funds means for the women's programs. Like we know, like we all understand. I thought that was very interesting in the letter. That was what stood out to me too.

That really stood out to me. It was their way of saying, we understand you have good intentions here, but don't hurt the people who don't deserve to be hurt. Yeah. And we all understand what events make a lot of money and what those events and the money that they make, what other programs they float within Hockey Canada as well. I think one of the things that I wondered about, and I think a lot of people wondered about as well, would the women look at boycotting the world championships? And I think it would be naive to think that it wasn't at least discussed by a few of the athletes.

And I asked a couple, and I'll paraphrase here, but essentially the vibe was this, Elliot. We want to play for Canada, but we don't want to play for hockey Canada. And that is a distinction that a lot of them had to wrestle with. Like, can we do something to still show that we want to play for our country, but we don't want to play for this organization that is the custodian of hockey here in this country. Like we heard a lot over the past couple of days in Ottawa and certainly before the first

hearings as well about Hockey Canada losing the trust of Canadians. A lot of people kept hammering home that message. Certainly the MPs did. And I thought a lot about it because I have two kids that are in the Hockey Canada program. and I thought a lot about it because I have two kids that are in the Hockey Canada program like we pay you know as far as you know we pay for both TJ and Brody you know the money that we pay goes into Hockey Canada coffers and you know I thought a lot about you know watching you know the three commissioners from the CHL leagues there in Ottawa and Dan McKenzie, the head of the Canadian Hockey League, was there along with everybody from Hockey Canada. And I think a lot of hockey parents feel this way. And there is this

fear that if your son or daughter is in a high-level hockey loop somewhere down the road, one of the decisions you're going to be faced with is how comfortable am I surrendering my child to this sport to go elsewhere? And one of the questions you ask as a parent is, is something bad going to happen to him or her? Or what type of people are they going to turn into? are they going to turn into? And I think that that's a lot of trust that hockey parents put in Hockey Canada when essentially, you know, when they're, you know, 15, 16 years old,

you send them all over the country to play. They're not fully formed adults. And the best you can do is hope that there are responsible custodians that are looking after your children, that are looking after the game, that are providing an environment where they can grow, where they can be safe, where they can learn respect, they can learn how to treat one another. Certainly there's going to be growing pains for every adolescent along the way, but nothing like what we saw.

And I think that that's a legitimate fear. And when the point kept getting hammered about losing the trust of Canadians, I don't think I'm in the minority here amongst hockey parents, Elliot. I don't want my kids to turn into that. And I don't want that to happen to any of my kids or anyone else's kids for that matter.

So I'm with you. There does need to be a significant change. And we all know that that is going to happen. It may not be as quick as some people want. I know we want this to happen suddenly. And I know the technology has sped up our expectation of how quickly things can change but i think we are headed down that road of a significant change with this national governing body i think we all know that this is headed there i don't know what it looks like

i don't know if how deep the change needs to go i don't know if anybody there who has, you know, in the MP's words, lost the trust of Canadians can have any part in any of this, but I'll go back to the point that you made as well. Listen, when Sheldon Kennedy speaks, I know I listen and I know you listen and I know a lot of people listen

and we all know Sheldon Kennedy's stories of abuse and how he is a survivor and an advocate and all the great work that he does and how he keeps the one thing that always impresses me about Sheldon Kennedy is how he keeps showing up. And I know it may seem like a small thing, but damn it, after everything that that guy has been through in his life to still show up and still have the energy and still fight the way Sheldon Kennedy does, to read that statement, that's a tough one for anybody to come back after. Yeah. Like the weight of those words, like the gravity is deep around anything that Sheldon Kennedy says. And I'm with you.

And I think I speak on behalf of a lot of people as well or share the same sentiment. There will be change, only a matter of what it looks like and how quickly we get there. But the thing is, it has to be change that makes people say, whoa, they're serious. And that's why I kind of wondered about would Canada play? Because if you pull Canada out of the world

juniors, people are going to say, wow. Now, like I said, those kids now, I'm happy they're getting the opportunity, but that is a change that would have made people say, wow. So what are you going to do that is going to convince people that you're serious? Like, for example, one of the things that came out on Tuesday was that there's one perpetrator responsible for four claims that have approximately a million dollars in settlements.

You know, how is that allowed to happen? You know, I think the other thing too is like, I don't know whether or not you're allowed to release people's names on this or something like that, but where is that person? Are they in any kind of position of authority still? Is that person still in hockey? You mentioned the junior teams. Katie Strang had a tweet where she got a hold

of some of the recommendations that have already been given to hockey Canada. I had a parent say to me that one thing they would like to change is that some of these events, the parents are very limited how much they can see their players. Like he compared it to you kind of hand your kid over to the tournament And you only get to see your child when they say you're allowed to. Like he says, that shouldn't be allowed anymore. Players should not be that sequestered at these tournaments. And I wonder if that is a recommendation that comes up in this as well.

You know, Rick Westhead, he had a thing, and I guess one of the MPs really hammered Sport Canada because it doesn't sound like they come out of this covered in glory either. Yeah. And, you know, someone said to me, look at all those other sports that have issues too. You know, there was a big investigation. I was reading today the McLaren Independent Canada Soccer Review, which was also awful to read, just brutal. But, you know, the thing is hockey gets most of the glory in this

country it sucks up a lot of the oxygen you know the one of the great things about sports in the 21st century in canada is canada's getting better at a lot of other things but hockey is still the one that gets most of the attention so when you get that kind of glory you know the flip side of it is when something goes wrong you can't run away and say, oh, this is unfair. It's not only us. Well, it may not only be us, but we've got to take care of our house. One of the things that a lawyer said to me was, and this is a sort of a crisis manager lawyer I know, is, is it time to just totally rename and rebrand the organization? We're starting all over. It's not called Hockey Canada anymore.

You come up with another name, you come up with a new code of conduct, you basically start all over again. I want to say something else. I think also you have to bring in somebody who's sort of out of the mainstream, like somebody that if you brought into your organization, you would say, well, that's a person we weren't expecting. And it may not be someone that everybody in hockey likes very much. A couple of years ago, the agent Anton Thun gave me a book called I Am Nobody. And it's by Greg Galooly, who was one of Graham James' victims. And he's a former hockey player who's now a lawyer. And I don't follow him on my main Twitter account. I separate a lot of my Twitter into lists because

I find if I'm following like a thousand people, I can't keep up. But I've been following him and I've been reading his stuff. And he's very critical about this, as he should be. But I wonder if you have to go to someone like him and say, all right, we haven't seen eye to eye, but you know of what we speak. And if we want to be serious about this, we need you in our organization. And the one thing I would just say is like, I don't think I'm any kind of a person. I really don't. But what I think I am is somebody who

represents my family. I think I represent the station I work for. And on some level, although I don't think it's any big level, I'm in the business of hockey. So I kind of represent that too. I think everybody involved here, we have to make sure we're treating people properly. We are going to do long-term damage to our sport if we don't stop these stories. And look, I know there's some people, and I know because they say it to me, we don't know the truth yet. We don't know the facts. And that is true. In some of these cases, we don't know the facts and I'm trying not to prejudge anyone. I'm just saying that these hearings, these stories, I mean, the fact is there was a settlement here and Hockey Canada clearly believes that there was reason that there should have been a settlement. We have to stop this as a group.

It's not everybody, but we all have a responsibility to treat people properly. Like I said, we're not perfect. We all make mistakes. I am far from perfect, but we have to end this and we have to end this now. And we have to show that we're serious about ending this. I want to say one more thing on this, um, to pick up where you left off there, Elliot, a lot of people have maintained through this that this isn't a hockey problem. This is a society problem. And that may very well be true. But someone that I spoke with yesterday, someone that I have deep, deep respect for when it comes to matters like this, amongst other matters, said to me, that may be true, and it is true. I'm paraphrasing this person. Change only happens when groups of people change the way they live with one another and communicate with one another. And we all live in these small worlds and this small world that we live in is called hockey and is this a society problem yes but change happens at this small level to further what you're saying we do need to change it we need to change it at the hockey level so we can

do our part to help change this at the societal level so we don't go through this ever again