32 Thoughts: The Podcast - The Details of the Pinto Suspension

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Jeff and Elliotte add more insight to the Shane Pinto suspension and discuss in depth where they believe the NHL and NHLPA will go from here. They recap a bizarre night across the NHL that included the Ducks defeating the Bruins, the Penguins beating the Avs 4-0, the Lightning decimating the Sharks, and no Morgan Frost again for Philadelphia (36:00). They talk about Cole Perfetti's confusing ice time in Winnipeg (40:00). Elliotte adds to his report about the NHL overwhelmingly voting for decentralizing the Entry Draft (59:00).  Jeff and Elliotte answer your questions in the Montana’s Thought Line (49:00).Email the podcast at [e-mail] or call the Montana's Thought Line at 1-833-311-3232 and leave us a voicemail.This podcast was produced and mixed by Dominic Sramaty and Jordan McRae and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

You know, so Dom just sent me a text message saying it's Roger's place, not Roger's arena. It's not my fault. We've got our name on so many buildings that I can't remember which one is which. Roger's Pond, is that taken yet? 32 Thoughts, the podcast presented by the new 2024 GMC Sierra HD, Jeff Merrick alongside Elliott Friedman. And it is the headline story that has shocked and gripped the NHL world. Shane Pinto of the Ottawa Senators suspended 41 games for violating the NHL's gambling regulations. There's a lot to get into on this one. And there are still some questions that are outstanding and lingering there.

We'll see if we can talk our way into an answer. We already did a quickie podcast that dropped on Thursday when the news broke, Elliot. But can you, to the best of your knowledge, because I think one of the things we're wondering about here is, when did the Ottawa senators know about this, considering there was a rather lengthy investigation? Do we have any sort of a timeline? I don't know if you can be specific about it, but is there a timeline you've been able to piece together here? Yes, I think we have a kind of an idea.

And I still think that this is one of those stories that's going to unfold over the next few days. But sometime during the summer, the NHL was approached by whoever like shane pinto has a legal account and he's not the only pro athlete or hockey player that does this there's a lot of them that do this and that's part of the story that we'll get to eventually, Jeff. But he has a legal wagering account somewhere. And at some point this summer, that account notified the NHL

that there was something unusual happening with Pinto's betting patterns. And so the league began an investigation, but the Sen senators didn't know about that investigation until right before training camp. So I did a story on September 30th that indicated that the situation with Pinto and the Senators wasn't going very well, that there had been a one-year, $1 million offer by the Senators that Pinto was disappointed in, and it kind of was affecting the negotiation. When I did that story, there was nobody who indicated to me that it was going to be impossible to sign him at that time. Like nobody denied that there was a gap, but nobody indicated to me that it was going to be impossible to sign him.

I think by that time, the senators had been informed there was an investigation, but not necessarily that things were off the rails. The Pinto, you'll remember, was skating in Ottawa, and then he abruptly left. That is, I think think when everybody began to realize that whatever had been found was of major concern to the nhl and the player wasn't going to be able to be signed for now and it was around that time that i don't know if it was exactly a hearing or he was presented with the evidence, but it was when Pinto left Ottawa that everybody began to realize that he was going to face a significant suspension. The Ottawa Senators dodged one. I mean, they could have made moves to free up cap space before they

were told about the situation with Shane Pinto and then been out the player and out the players that they gave up to make the cap space to sign Shane Pinto. Yeah. You know, that's one of the things that someone said to me actually on Thursday, Jeff, is that it was just wild how we went from the Ottawa Sanders don't have the cap room to sign him to, thank God the Sanders didn't have to, didn't make a trade to sign him. And then they would have been out even more players. Like it's just wild. I think that like just the amount of time, I think a lot of people have spent on this, like just the pinto negotiation situation not so much the suspension i don't

think there were a lot of people here who were in the forefront of the negotiation who really believed that this was going to be a huge problem until like a couple weeks ago obviously there was this all this going on in the background but i really don't think it was a true factor to the point where people realized that maybe he wasn't going to play until that day he left Ottawa. So a couple of things here, and you write about this at your piece of sportsnet.ca. The 41 game suspension has already begun. He's now served seven after the Ottawa Senators-New York Islanders game on Thursday. The suspension was negotiated between the NHL and the NHL Players Association. And I'm going to assume, and correct me if I'm wrong on this one, I'm going to assume that it

wasn't only the 41 games that was negotiated, but also the waiving of the December 1st signing deadline. Well, let me just clarify that with you because I got fooled on that one initially. So in the morning after the suspension was announced, they reported that the suspension had already begun and it wasn't depending on his signing. And I asked somebody

about december 1st and they said that's not a factor and so i initially wrote that it was waived and what was clarified to me is that because shane pinto cannot sign an offer sheet he can still sign after december 1st and play this year his specific type of free agency is not affected by the December 1st deadline because he has no right to sign an offer sheet. What that proves to me, Jeff, is that there's a lot of rules in that CBA that you really have to be a genius to understand. I told you, this is what we should all commit to right now. Everybody, you, me, Dom, everybody listening, this summer, take the CBA

to the beach. When your friends and your family are out playing volleyball and swimming and having drinks and having a good time, no, you're going to plow through the CBA. No, we're all going to plow through the CBA together. It'll be like a book club. It'll be a lot of fun, Elliot. Let me ask you about the NHL Players Association's role in all of this as well. Do you have a sense of how this dynamic worked and could the suspension have been much weightier and longer from the NHL? I have been told by a few people today that the league wanted a harsher suspension. the league wanted a harsher suspension that initially they wanted more than 41 i suspect although i don't know i suspect they wanted a year and you know the thing is like and this was the really tricky thing i could only find the one memo from March of 2022 that I wrote about that said,

if you bet on NHL games, they're going to throw the book at you. And there were a lot of people saying, well, what did he do wrong? There's nothing that says you can't do anything. And basically, you have to go to Section 18A of the CBA. And basically, it gives the commissioner very wide latitude to suspend for off ice incidents and so basically because he found something here that he didn't like and the league didn't like i think the players association conceded that he had the ability to do this. And basically what got negotiated upon here, it looks like is,

I think Bettman wanted to come down with a penalty and didn't want to have to deal with an appeal. And the Players Association got it down to 41 and agreed no appeal. That's what I think happened here. So then one of the questions that perhaps should have opened with this, but this sort of brings us to this moment, and that is, what did he do? Well, I think the key thing to say here is that I don't think what Pinto did makes him a bad or malicious guy. I don't think there's anything like that. I think he made a mistake.

I think he got careless and he gave his account, I don't know, the password, whatever. He shared his account with someone. And what we don't know yet is what this person or these people did. And this is called proxy betting. I learned something I didn't know. You know, Jeff, I like to gamble, but I'm not a big gambler. I think I gamble the way most people gamble. I'm in two fantasy football leagues and you know what I'll bet someone on the odd game here and there or enter a master's pool. I used to have an app betting account but I don't have it anymore.

I just didn't really enjoy it. I think one thing I've learned about gambling is that if you really want to be quote unquote good at it you have to spend a lot of time at it you have to compare betting lines you have to shop around between apps like I have a nephew come up with your own model yeah I have a nephew who has five betting accounts with five different companies because he shops for the best lines and he really works at it and I'm like you know what I don't have time for that god bless you that you have that much time in your life that you can do that I don't have that much time I can do that so I learned a lot of stuff today that I you know I didn't really know and one of them was proxy betting and basically what proxy betting is is you let someone have access to your account

and they can go in on it and bet and do whatever and it's under your name though now that if you go and read some of these websites and I read the FanDuel one, that is not allowed. You are not allowed to do that. They don't allow it. And I think one of the things that happens too is, is that if you open up a legal account with a company, like depending on where you are, you have to put your visa number down or your credit card number down. You have to put a bank account number down, or you have to put in the States, you have to put your social security number down. And so if a name comes up like Shane Pintos, that's a pro athlete and they really watch it closely. If's a pro athlete they monitor it really

tight because that gives them an idea if there's something fishy going on in a sport like for example there was a point shaving scandal in Arizona State basketball in the 1990s and the way it was found out was because a gambling company in Vegas looked at what was happening with the line and they said, this is really weird. Like it's not unusual for these things to be found out because the actual gambling companies turn in people and say, there is some weird betting here. And so they really watch those things really hard. betting here and so they really watch those things really hard and what i think happened was someone has access to pinto's account and i don't know this for sure but i suspect his account was based in new york because that's where he's from and every state there has different rules some

states don't allow betting some states states do. And so his New York based account detects that someone on Shane Pinto's is on Shane Pinto's account and they're betting. And wait a sec, the schedule says that Shane Pinto's in Ottawa because the senators are playing St. Louis tonight. And that's, that's And I think that's what triggered the red alert. What we don't know, Jeff, is what happened with that wagering. Did they bet on something that they shouldn't have? Like, for example, did the people who have access to Pinto, did they bet on hockey?

I don't know. And no one said yes or no. But if they had, that would have been a tremendous problem. And that is one thing that's going to be told to players. Like, I do understand the League and the Players Association, they're making sure that there are going to be some Zooms or availabilities for the players to ask questions. Or they're going to be told, this is kind of what happened here, and you've got to make sure it doesn't happen. I think that's going to happen over the next week.

And I think one of the things, everyone, I think, I know one of the things they're going to be told is, if you have a legal gambling account, you better not give anyone access to it, because anything that goes wrong is on your name. Look at the punishment that Pinto took on it. And I think one of the questions that everyone's asking here, and I don't know the answer, is did the people who had access to Pinto's account, did they wager on something they shouldn't have? I want to circle back to something you said a couple of seconds ago. There's one thing that I really wonder about here, and it's going to take us into a whole different part of this conversation. When you talked about the NHL and the commissioner wanting wanting a much more severe punishment or suspension for this offense

that 41 games was perhaps seen as too light and they wanted something closer to, as you mentioned, maybe an entire season for Shane Pinto. I can see that very much. I can see the NHL saying, we want to come down with a hammer here. We need to show that this will not be tolerated and the punishment will be as swift as possible and as severe as possible. Considering

this would have been something, had it been an entire season, that the NHL Players Association would fight and drag on. Do you think that part of the motivation perhaps for coming together with the Players Association and arriving at 41 games is twofold? One, it's still a severe penalty, but two, it allows this story just to stay in one news cycle and not drag itself out knowing full well that part of the conversation will be and this takes us to another line of discussion here

considering how embedded the nhl is now with wagering well i think your first point is true you know i i think that absolutely betman would rather have it over with and the league would rather have it over with. I think on some level, Pinto would probably want it over with too. Just, you know, he knows what it is. And, you know, that's the thing here too. It's very clear that the player realized he did something that he shouldn't have. Not because he's, like I said, a bad person or did it maliciously. He was careless. And, you know, he got, unfortunately, this punishment. not because he's like I said a bad person or did it maliciously he was

careless and you know he got unfortunately this punishment you know the whole thing about the gambling a lot of people have said that today I understand the internet is all over it with that and you know I get it like I do get it I understand why people are saying that you know however and if people want to say it's hypocritical by all means but at the end of the day you know whether things are hypocritical or not there's still some rules here there's some things that you can't do and by the fact that pinto agreed to this penalty and agreed not to fight it i it says to me that even he or the people around him realize, you know, like this shouldn't have happened.

And so, you know, look, like Jeff, there's a whole bunch of soccer players that have been suspended recently, including one earlier Thursday in Italian National. including one earlier Thursday in Italian National. There's eight football players and one coach who've been suspended in the last 20 months. Almost all of this has been for actually betting on games, which is really not a smart thing to do, but one of them for the violation we talked about, doing a legal bet at the team facility. I think you have to know even though

gambling is much more acceptable in north america there still are things that you can't do and that is what the players are going to be having these meetings about because i will say this first of all i think everybody was shocked at this that was the big concern about the sort of vague way that the nhl did this i think there are players who had legal accounts were like oh my god am i doing anything illegal am i doing anything wrong i think there were some guys who were for like a couple hours who were legitimately terrified that they could be suspended too like we're laughing but it's kind of not funny and could you just imagine if you're sitting there thinking well you know like i said i think the players association is going to tell the players

kind of what you have to avoid um but like i think there were a lot of guys who are probably betters like me and who were like, am I in danger of getting suspended here? You know, the internet sort of ran with this one too. And, you know, proclaiming hypocrisy, as you mentioned, there's gambling all uh every element and every aspect of the games the broadcast the editorial um gambling is the interaction um there's even just sort of a casual gambling culture within the game itself yes when you really when you really think about it whether it's guys playing cards like we've all heard that you know on the yes on the plane um there's guys saying okay 50 bucks a draw and we'll see what happens by the end of the night okay that's another

thing and then there is money on the board yep like one of the things that i wonder about here is now that there's and this is severe like 41 games and i'm not i'm not i'm not equating what pinto did to you know going like say like hey, 20 bucks a draw for face-offs. But there still is a very casual gambling culture around the sport. Do you think anything happens there? And the one thing that I really do wonder about is money on the board. Because in a sense, you are gambling within the game that you are playing. I know it's all innocent and we get it. It's my old team and I'm putting money up for uh within the game that you are playing i know it's all innocent

and we get it nights you're right it's my old team and i'm putting money up for whoever gets the game winning i get that but still do you think anything happens there even just a gentle reminder perhaps you know i just think you have to be smart you know the one thing that the that has to happen here is is kind of what we've talked about they have to tell the players specifically like the players know you can't bet on hockey they all know that and they all understand that i think what you have to specify more and that's what they're going to do what you can do and what you can't do like i think that's like i said i think there were a whole bunch of players today who were like well i just I just thought I can only not bet on hockey.

And other than that, I can do whatever I want. I can bet on how much rain we're going to have today. I can bet on those two cars are driving on the street. Which one's going to hit the next intersection first? You know, you thought you could do all of that. You know, I just think, number one, you've got to be smart. I think people understand when they're getting into situations that you shouldn't be getting into. But I think also the gambling money is not going away unless someone decides to ban it.

And to be honest, the players aren't going to want it to go away and the league isn't going to want it to go away. And we're not going to want it to go away because it's keeping us employed. Well, not me, but you. Bless them all. It's keeping us employed and, you you know it's a big investment it's allowing the salary cap to go up i think the other thing too is you know people i know from europe or other relatives or friends i'm there and other parts of the world like everywhere else in the world has been used to this for a long time you know we're the last place in the world in

north america to allow gambling do i think it's been too much in the NHL? Yeah. Like in terms of like just the amount of commercials and stuff that we do. Yeah. I think it went from zero to a hundred faster than the fastest Ferrari in the world. And I think that has turned some people off here and there, but what we're dealing with here is not unusual in the scope of the way the world lives and the way the world wagers. You just have to be smart about it. And what they have to do now is just tell players, this is what happened here and you can't do the same thing. Elliot, I'm glad you got us there because it brings us to a point that I thought a lot about on Thursday. And let me give you an analogy.

If you tell me that, Jeff, from now on, you can only park your car while you're driving 40 miles an hour. Eventually, I may learn how to park my car when I'm driving 40 miles an hour, but I'm going to smash a lot of cars along the way. What I wonder here, as you mentioned how we've gone from zero to a kajillion. No, you'll like this one. How has we've gone from zero to 11T billion when it comes to sports wagering? Is this nothing more, considering that hockey got to this, hockey kind of got here last, Elliot, is this nothing more than a growing pain for hockey and gambling?

This was bound to happen. As you mentioned, it was an accident. Was he sloppy? Absolutely. Was it deliberately malicious? I doubt it. I think you doubt it as well. I think he was just sloppy.

Is this nothing more than hockey going through a gambling growing pain? malicious. I doubt it. I think you doubt it as well. I think he was just sloppy. Is this nothing more than hockey going through a gambling growing pain? I think you know what it's like. It's like when you take a look at some of the things that have happened in the past, Evander Kane, Thomas Javanik, Rick Talkett, some of the things they've been through. Those things happened when gambling wasn't where it is now in North America. Before, gambling used to be quote-unquote illegal, whatever people want to call it. It was basically a kind of thing that was frowned upon everybody knew that people did it um there's gambling here i'm shocked casablanca like that's you know that's what it was gambling here yeah you know this is the first time it's happened when it's legal

or quote unquote more acceptable whatever people want to say and you know what jeff it's like a parent okay like for all of you out there who are parents or all of you are out there who run a business or you're a camp counselor or you're a teacher or whatever you want to say and you put in a new rule or you've got something that comes in and the first time that you get a challenge you have to decide am I gonna set a tone or am I going to let it slide and if you let slide, then you risk it happening some more. Or if you set a tone, if you punish your child or you punish your student or you punish your employee or whatever it is, everybody says, okay, this is not to be trifled with.

This is serious now. And to me, that's what this is this is the first one under the new rules of the way gambling works in north america and it's the nhl saying if you think that because the states and the provinces are more permissive on this stuff that we're going to turn to blind eye to to something we think is bad, you're wrong. And that's exactly what they did. Okay, Elliot, that's the main pinata in this story, the 41-game suspension.

But I'm curious about what's next for the Ottawa Senators. Now they all wake up every morning not wondering if Shane Pinto has been signed overnight and they get a shiny new Christmas present down the middle for their next game in practice, but they know that he's not walking in that door to help this team so what's next for the Sens that's a you know that's a great question first of all was happy to hear that Eric Brandstrom was moving all extremities after the injury he suffered during that game on Thursday night that

looked really scary so I'm you know I think we're all happy to see that the news is positive. I think one of the best things that happens here is that everybody gets to call a timeout because I think it was very emotional for everyone. Obviously, Pinto, I think the senators uh were really disappointed and frustrated when they found out how serious this was and i have to say this i think the other story here is how are his teammates gonna feel like i was asking i you know it was a game day for them so i was kind of leaving them alone but i was asking some other players and i was on nhl network today on thursday uh with jamie hirsch and devin

dubnik and mark parish and you know one of the things i asked dubnik and parish is how do you guys think the players will react because that might be one of the biggest keys here you know this could go one of two ways jeff either the players could say well you know some of us like to gamble there by the grace of god go i it could have been us yeah and not him and we know he's not a malicious guy so we understand or the other thing that could happen jeff is they could say Shane, like we needed you and now we're struggling and you've put yourself out for half the year. It could go either way. And if it goes way B, Jeff, that's a big problem. That sounds like a PED apology.

And this is anything but that. This is I was sloppy with my gambling app. versus anything anything but that this is i was sloppy with my gambling app and what dubnik and parish in particular thought was that the players will go with a like yeah could have been us and as long as if he signs and when he signs you know he's ready to go and he plays hard you know they think the players will get past it but we'll find out i think the bigger thing is what the organization's gonna to think. You know, I think there's a lot of frustration there. This is obviously a huge year for the Senators.

He's an important player for them. And now they're not going to get him until, like, you know, when's he going to be really ready to play? Now, as I've said, and I've said to you before, I've heard that pinto was incredibly appreciative i've been trying to work on this for about a week and a half and it really wasn't going far everybody was really careful and the senators did not participate in any kind of whisper campaign or thing to make them no mad or thing to expose him but i still think there are some raw

feelings there and i also believe that if pinto is playing auto this year he's going to sign i wouldn't be surprised if he signs like a one-year deal not a lot of money like he's going to be walking back to them and knowing okay i can't be asking for two times two five right now like i've gotta make a deal at a number that hurts me and make this right but you know i think what the time does is allows everybody to get i think everybody needs a time out it's like sometimes even your best friends you need to get away from them and not look at them in the face. And I think that's where the senators and Pinto are right now. Okay.

So this story is still far from over. Do you think there's anything that we've left out here? I've tried to make this as thorough as possible. And clearly you have as well. Do you think there's anything we're leaving out here before we move on? I would, again, I would say it to any player who listens to this or any person who listens to this that does legal gambling. Remember, you are responsible for what happens under your name.

If ever you get a friend who says, can I use your account? Like, I'll give you an example. I think it was Florida when I had an app, an app account. I think it was last year in Florida for the Stanley Cup final. Florida is one of those states that at the time did not allow it. So I couldn't use my app. And I was telling one of my buddies this, and he said to me, well, if you want, I can go into your account and I can place a bet. First of all, I don't like that. I don't like giving anyone access because first of all, my friends are the kind of people that they would do something just horrible

to make me feel bad for like an hour and then they would fix it. But I wasn't comfortable with that. And then, you know, but my buddy did say you know technically it's illegal but nothing's gonna happen to you because you don't bet a lot of money and it's funny jeff but what i said to him was you know now i'm definitely not gonna do it even though i was leading that way in the first place because if it goes wrong if something bad happens the headline would be the headline would not be my friend screwed up elliot friedman's account it would be sports nets elliot friedman did something illegal within his account and the picture would be me on the front page of the internet in an orange

jumpsuit like that's you know that's what thought about. And of course that's not going to happen, but who is the person with something to lose here? It's me. So, you know, that that's the one thing I would say to anybody listening to this out there is that, look, we don't know the full scope of this, but one thing we do know is he gave access to people on his account and whatever they did and i don't think we know the full thing they did whatever they did just got shane pinnow suspended 41 games okay um and that's where we're at now this story continues uh let's take a pause take a deep breath come back talk about some of the issues coming out of Thursday and Thursday evening, and also decentralization of the draft and the 32 Thought line from Montana. That's still to come on 32 Thoughts, the podcast. Keep it here.

Listen to the 32 Thoughts podcast ad-free on Amazon Music, included with Prime. Okay, so welcome back to the program here. We're going to get to the decentralization of the draft in a couple of seconds. But Elliot, Thursday was bizarro land in a lot of ways uh anaheim over the boston bruins they are no longer undefeated mason mctavish future captain of the anaheim ducks discuss amongst yourselves uh with the ot heroics there also the pittsburgh penguins didn't give the avalanche a chance at anything uh they beat the Colorado Avalanche by a final score of 4-0. So now the Avs have their first blemish on their record as well.

We saw the Tampa Bay Lightning, for example, absolutely decimate the San Jose Sharks by a final score of 6-0. We had the Philadelphia Flyers break up the Flyers. They hand it to the Minnesota Wild, 6-2, Elliot. And for the fifth game in a row, no Morgan Frost. I want to get to Winnipeg and call Perfetti, but no Morgan Frost again for Philadelphia. You know, first of all, I'm in Edmonton,

and after we finish taping the pod, I'm going to head to Rogers Arena for the end of the Oilers-Rangers game. Bill Guerin is here in town tonight because Doug Waite is being inducted into the Oilers Hall of Fame. After seeing the score of that Wildfires game, I'm going to see where garen is

and i'm going to stand in the farthest possible spot from where he is you'll still be able to see smoke coming out of his ears by the way that game you're heading to in a couple of moments rangers are winning at this place right now it is one nothing goal by Adam Fox. You know, so Dom just sent me a text message saying, it's Roger's place, not Roger's arena. It's not my fault. We've got our name on so many buildings that I can't remember which one is which. Roger's Pond, is that taken yet?

That's next. That's next. Circling back, do you have a thought on on morgan frost and like this is oh yeah this is more than uncomfortable at this point this is five games in a row yeah and and you know i i think at the beginning the flyers were telling the kid patience patience patience man it's tough to be patient. You sound like Axel Rose. Yeah, that's good. You know, this guy's a flyer.

He was drafted by them. He was developed by them. You know, they've been good for each other. At times it was slower than everybody wanted, but the flyer stuck by Frost, and he did what they asked. Like, he worked to become a better player, and he had a really good year last year i think it was 49 points fourth in the team in scoring and you know they asked him to work on

certain things and and he did it he delivered and now this year to see this i think you can understand it for a game or two um but you can't understand it for five in a row and i do think teams have started kicking around on this saying okay what's going on here i don't think there's been anything like as of thursday afternoon i did not have the sense there was anything enticing for them um you know again I I'm always afraid of that because then I I worry about this podcast drops these in some eight player blockbuster but as of Thursday afternoon I didn't get the sense that there was anything that really had them going I mean everybody here can see where this is going to go. If he isn't playing, he's going to want a change of scenery. I think that's, I'm not saying it's happened yet,

but we can all see where this is going. And I think everybody gets that. There's another name to get to as well. Although he is playing, one of the things we do at the end of every night is grab the game sheet when Winnipeg's playing to find out the ice time for Cole Perfetti. Now, Cole Perfetti is playing on a really good line. Nick Ehlers, Vlad Nemestnikov, and Cole Perfetti, they've been real good.

Problem is, for Perfetti, he barely gets into double digits every night. And in the game Thursday night, the Jets win. They beat the Detroit Red Wings by a final score of 4-1. Perfetti with an assist on the opening goal by Nick Ehlers. He plays 10 minutes and 40 seconds. Barron takes the spot at times

in the third period. You have a thought on, because I think a lot of us are scratching our heads here and trying to figure out, like, this is a first-round pick. He's a good player. He's being productive. He's on a good line but it's again thursday night just over 10

minutes of ice i'm looking at his sheet okay it's clear to me that the jets because the jets don't they don't think the perfetti can protect the lead well you saw that tonight when he was passed over. Yes. And look, I mean, you look at his shift chart in the third period, he gets two shifts in the last 10 minutes. One of them's 22, the last 22 seconds of the game. The most important thing I think you have to do in this situation, like, first of all, if I was Perfetti, I would be climbing the walls. I get it. They've won both those games,

right? And this is the real challenge for a young player, especially any player, but especially a young player. You're sitting here and you're saying, what's happening to me? But they beat St. Louis and then they beat Detroit. So you feel like I can't be selfish when the team is winning games. You know what I think about? I think about when I see Perfetti, I think about what the Ducks are doing with Leo Carlson. I want to mention that in a second. You have to make sure that the agent and the player are on board with what you're doing. player are on board with what you're doing. The only thing the Jets can really do here is say to Perfetti, this is our plan and this is where this is going. And when you're winning games,

it's really difficult for the player to argue with the plan. But you also have to put him in a situation where you're saying to him, Hey, we want this to change. Eventually we want you to play more. They're going to have a, it's a first round pick. They've got a lot invested in them. He wants to play more. So if we want this to change and you want this to change, here's the things you have to do. And that's it. You have to make sure the player understands what it's going to take to change this and there's a path to changing it because you know right now they're winning games so you can't really argue with it but you have to give them a path to changing this that's the way i look at it. What do you think?

I have a real soft spot for Cole Perfetti for a few reasons. One, I really like the player a lot. And he was the Howard Chuck pick, as you'll recall at that draft. He was the Howard Chuck pick. I understand managing expectations for young hockey players. I get all of that. I understand that certain coaches expect certain things from certain players, and although it might be painful at that time,

over the course of their career, they understand as they look back, okay, now I understand what Rick Bonas was doing. Now I understand why Scott O'Neill did the exact same thing when he took over um when rick went to be with with his wife i i understand all that i just can't help but thinking you have invested so much in this young player and you know the the winnipeg jets looked over the edge the last couple of seasons and thought about, okay, are we going to get rid of Shifley? Are we going to get rid of Hellebuck?

Are we going to rebuild this organization? Are we going to rebuild this team? And they pulled back and they didn't do it. And they're probably going to try to do something, you know, not unlike what Dallas has done quite successfully, how they've turned their team over. And I would argue what St. Louis is trying to do as well, going from, you know, the Ryan O'Reilly, who's no longer there anymore, but the Braden Shen group to the Robert Thomas, Jordan Cairo group. I think they're probably going to go that route. And when you're doing that,

I think you really need to be sensitive to the young players that you're grooming. And specifically when they're being as productive as Perfetti is now. I know that injuries have been an issue for Perfetti. I get that. I understand it. start to see him perform like he is now. And that's a really good line, man. I think you have to say to yourself, for the good of the player long-term, and I get that scraps for points are really important, for the good of this player long-term is going to be a big piece of this organization when some of our veteran guys

start to look like older hockey players, he's going to be really important. We need to do things as an investment for the Winnipeg Jets. That's what I think. I think you're totally right. And that's why I feel they have to be communicating this to him well. They have to be. You know, it's like Carlson.

Like Carlson played 22 minutes against Boston on Thursday night. And one of the things Pat Verbeek did was he sat down with the player and the agent and he said, this is our plan. And as it stands right now, the player and the agent are on board. Now, if this is the same way it's in January and February, maybe they won't be,

but right now they're on board. And, you know, like at trevor zegers trevor zegers got benched the other night yeah against boston he played 23 minutes i think that's the way it's supposed to be you don't hold grudges you have a plan and you and you give the chance for the player to show they've learned their lesson that's to me the key here with winnipeg as long as they're saying to perfetti this is what we're thinking and this is what you have to do to change it you're okay it's when the player doesn't give isn't given an opportunity to change it that's when the player really gets upset. And that's the thing about Frost, because as you said, we're at five games already.

That's a long time. This is something for young coaches that are out there, coaches that are coaching minor slash youth hockey that are listening to this right now. My youngest son, Brody, had a coach once who did something really interesting. And he told us he was going to do this at the beginning of the year. And as parents, we loved it. He said, there are going to be times where I bench your kid. I mean, everyone's going to do something where it's like, okay, boneheaded move. You're going to sit down and watch the game. You're going to get skipped for at least a shift. And he said,

but I will make a promise to you right now. If I bench your son, when he gets back out there in the rotation, the first thing I'm doing is double shifting him because I want to give him a chance to stick it to me. And I'm going to tell him that. I'm double shifting you. Stick it back at me. How angry you are at me right now for sitting you down?

Stick it to me now. I'm giving you that chance. As parents, I love that, Elliot. Because the message is sent, and then you give the player a chance to stick it back to the coach. I loved it. Just some advice for young coaches out there.

It's a really cool tactic. Decentralization of the draft. I want to hold that to the end because i want to do montana's thought line here real fast this is the montana's thought line montana's barbecue and bar canada's home for barbecue to which elliot friedman always reminds us try ribs it's really catching on 32 thoughts at sportsnet.ca. I've seen a lot of people tweeting it. I love it. It's become his own hashtag. 1-833-311-3232. You started a phenom here.

32 thoughts at sportsnet.ca. 1-833-311-3232. Tommy from London. Hi, guys. Love hearing another Andy Brown mention on the podcast. The man was a true badass. Hang on. This is going somewhere kind of funny.

Along with being the last maskless goaler. Oh, the use of the word goaler. Oh, be still my heart. Along with being the last maskless goaler, Andy was well known in Ontario and New York for his auto racing exploits during the hockey off seasons. The racetrack announcers called him

Animal Andy Brown, and he drove in an era when racing was still very dangerous and fatal crashes were not uncommon can you imagine any pro team allowing a player to do that now i would love to hear andy on your show sometime good job dom good job jeff and i guess i'll say good job to elliot, but only because he went to Western. Hashtag try the ribs. Clauses and danger clauses, I believe they're referred to in contracts. Well, years ago when I did a lot more baseball, there was a story where Paul Quantrill, the pitcher for the Blue Jays, was injured on a snowmobile in the offseason. And, you know, basically, I think what people understand is that if you get injured doing

something that you're not supposed to do, it can be a problem. You know, like, look, if you get injured training yourself, you know, Max Pacioretty, for example, has done look if you get injured training yourself um you know max patch already for example has done that he got injured training himself nobody's gonna have a problem with that uh quinn from the sabers he got injured training himself last offseason people it's disappointing because nobody wants to see that happen but nobody's going to have an issue with that but if you injure yourself doing something that you know you shouldn't be doing or it's a little more risque i remember that the snowmobiling one was a big one a few years ago as i mentioned there can be issues with that particularly if a team indicated, we don't want you doing this and you get injured doing this. Excellent question, Tommy in London, Ontario. Let's get to a voicemail,

Jack in Lindsay, Ontario. Just listening about suspensions and thinking about the incident with Rasmus Anderson and Patrick Leining and wondering about the weird position the players union is in. They often represent the perpetrator in these offenses and they file a grievance and try to have the suspension lessened, but they're at the same time representing the victim in that offense. They represent Patrick lining. So I'm wondering, can the players union file a grievance in a suspension where they would ask

for the suspension to be lengthened, that it wasn't a long enough suspension. Be curious to see. Thanks, guys. Jeff, listen, since your law days, your serious radio, Ellie, you're the best in the business. Thank you, guys. Jack from Lindsay with the kind words. Well, that's a great question. Lindsay, Ontario, home of Joe Junkin, by the

way. I'll always point that out, one of our favorite WHA netminders. Anyhow, go ahead. It's a great question because a lot of people have asked it in the past, and there have been some players who have been frustrated at times that they were injured or a teammate got injured and the players association appealed on behalf of the player who was suspended or defended the player who was suspended and you know the players association's answer to that because i've asked them about it

before is we have to represent everybody. And there's something in the CBA that allows players to appeal. And I know there have been times they've advised players not to appeal or they've advised players to appeal, not only suspensions, but other situations. And it's been ignored. The player has chosen to do different. But if a player really wants to appeal they have to do it but i'm sure in some situations they haven't always agreed with the fact that they have to appeal but it's in the cba and they've got to do it bob goodenow when he ran the players association

was very fierce and vocal about this he said said, look, there's a CBA and we have to defend our players to the extent of that CBA as hard as we can. And it's kind of the mentality they've carried throughout the years is that maybe not everybody likes it, but those are the rights of the players in that document

and we will fight for those rights. You know what is always, oh, what's the proper word? Awkward is a gentle landing word for this. When one agent's client injures another client, which way does the agent lean? Yeah, I remember. That's happened.

Yeah, that's a good one. That's happened. That's a really good one, actually. It's a really great point. Remember Ryan kessler and ryan johansson had a big feud they're both kurt overhard guys and i think he bridged a piece between the two of them so sometimes i bet that happens a couple more here quick john and stovall what a lovely part of the country um john here from lovely stovall after listening to you

guys discuss odd rules on last Friday's pod, I had a question I thought might tickle Elliot's self-proclaimed love of chaos. What if each NHL team were allowed to enact one, quote, house rule that was only applied in their home arena? Teams could create one unique rule to put in place for the duration of the season that would speak to their individual strengths and increase their advantage during home games. For example, a team with a strong power play could say all penalties last a full two minutes, or a team that's strong on face-offs could choose to side for neutral and offensive

zone face-offs. I highly doubt the NHL would ever adopt a crazy concept like this, true, but at least I hope you two can have some fun with the idea bring on the chaos thanks so much for all your work great job dom jeff and elliotts i have to say i think that's fantastic i absolutely think that that is a dynamite idea will never happen but i would if i ever ran a league i would put something like that in there Or at least give teams the ability to create, and we used to have this before, whether it was the old odd in Buffalo, the Boston Garden, Chicago Stadium,

different rink dimensions, and you would build your team according to the dimensions of your rink. Maybe if you had a fast team and you wanted a lot of ice, you had the 200 by 100 Olympic size sheet. Maybe you had the 180 by 80 because you had a slower heavier team whatever and you built your team accordingly i still like the idea of rank size being different much like baseball stadiums and you build your roster according to you know the the fences for

example i still like the idea of being able to build your roster based on a real home ice advantage, which is our rink looks like this. These are the dimensions, and we're building our team accordingly. Yeah, I love it. One of my favorite stories from baseball was I once was in a scrum, a dugout conversation

with Davey Johnson, who was the manager of the Mets when they won the World Series in 86. And I think at the time he was managing, I can't remember if it was Baltimore or Washington. It probably was actually Baltimore. And yeah, it would have to be Baltimore back then. And he told a great story about when the Mets and the Cardinals were big rivals in the 80s.

You know, the Mets had a bit more of a power team and the Cardinals had the great speed team with Ozzie Smith and William McGee and Vince Coleman. And so they were playing a big series in New York and the Cardinals were killing them on the bases that year. They were killing everybody, but they were killing the Mets. So he told the grounds crew to water it extra so that the mud around the bases would be really deep

and you couldn't get a good footing and you wouldn't be able to run. And he said, Waddy Herzog, who was the manager of the Cardinals, went absolutely wild when he saw what the Mets did. And like David Johnson said, like, what was he going to do? Look to see how much water we could use in the rule book. So I do love stuff like that. I think it's hilarious. I think I've told you this story before.

Doug McClain, when he was with the Florida Panthers, every time the Pittsburgh Penguins or a fast skating team came to Florida, he would instruct his Zamboni driver to dump extra water on the ice. the Florida Panthers. Every time the Pittsburgh Penguins or a fast skating team came to Florida, he would instruct the Zamboni driver to dump extra water on the ice. Just essentially turn the ice rink into a giant slushy. Just slow everything down. Mm, slushy. Slushy. Slushy. Slushy.

And with that, that's your Montana's Thoughtline for the day. Montana's barbecue and bar, Canada's home for barbecue. We love that. Try the ribs hashtag. Trademark, Elliott Friedman. Talking about decentralizing the draft to wrap things up here in moments. Elliott,

you have an Oilers RangersRangers period to catch. You've missed most of the game by now, but you're determined to get to the third period. We'll try to get you there. So before we release you from your duties and obligations, the very latest on decentralizing the draft, it sounds like overwhelmingly the other managers were in favor of it or the teams were in favor of it.

And now I suppose the timeline is general managers meetings and board of governors meeting. Yes. So the vote was above 80%. And the great thing about this in the sport where in the world where I say I was told there would be no math, it's not really hard to figure out. It's got to be at least 26 to six, right? Because other than that, you're below 80%. So that's

what the voting was and um you know i if some people were surprised it was lopsided i got the sense that it was going to be changed i just didn't know what to expect it would be so now it's what's next and the general managers meet next month in toronto right after the hall of fame induction and the board of governorsors are in December in Seattle, and they will discuss it at those places. Now, what still has to be determined is this year, I believe they are budgeting out the sphere. Like we've joked, Jim Dolan, who owns the Rangers and owns the spheres,

he's probably charging the NHL even more with some of the battles he's had with them over the years, but I think they're budgeting it out to see if they can do it. And you know what someone said to me was, and I will say this, people have disputed whether or not the sphere is actually big enough to do this,

but I did ask if they go to the sphere this year, would it be a full 32 draft? And I was told that's what everyone hopes so if they get this fear maybe we do 32 if they don't get this fear i wonder if they just bring this into this year but again i really hope jeff they find a way to make this a big party still make it a big party even though i don't know if i'll be going to it anymore. No, you get yourself there. I think whenever there's big events like this and there's a lot of people around, that's

when ideas and news starts to get flowing, which is one of the sidebars to all of this. But all right then, let's leave it there. You got a game to catch, and I've got some games to watch. So on behalf of our man Dom, he's no longer new Amel.

Has he graduated to just Dom now, Elliot? He's old Dom. You know, Jeff, I have to say this tonight. While we're doing this pod, I'm watching Calgary and I'm watching Edmonton, and both teams got booed off the ice at the end of the second period by their home fans. Well, you know what the good thing is, though, Elliot?

One of these teams has to win on Sunday. It's going to be a restless crowd. It's going to be a very intriguing crowd and an intriguing game. Some fans that are not thrilled with the way things are going for their teams right now. They are restless. They're getting the torches out. The volcano is looking for a sacrifice.

We'll see what happens by the time we get to Sunday. On behalf of Elliot and old Dom, Merrick saying enjoy your weekend's worth of eyeballing hockey. We'll talk to you early next week. Enjoy.