32 Thoughts: The Podcast - The Muller Report

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

Kirk Muller played in the NHL for 19 seasons and has been behind the bench since 2011. He joins Jeff and Elliotte on the podcast (42:00) to talk about Montreal’s impressive play in the bubble last season, how to find success as a player in a market like Montreal, his thoughts on Nick Suzuki and […]

put that on your outtakes reel at the end oh god okay so Elliot imagine you're just walking down the street and it's a summer day okay sorry I'll drop all the goofy analogies to kick off the podcast I was going to say is this another picnic table

I was waiting for you to jump in and say no more of these dumb intros Merrick first of all let me just say before we get to Merrick's tortured ideas here, hope all the mothers on this podcast had a great Mother's Day. To Claire, to Joe, who is Amal's partner, and to Steph, of course, who was my long-suffering wife. So that's number one. Number two, I have to say this.

So if you listen to Friday's podcast with Jeff's tortured allegory of someone leaving their wallet and keys on a picnic table and comparing it to Tom Wilson. Just because you didn't understand it doesn't make it not good. I understood it. It was stupid. I happened to be watching some kids show with my son max the other day and there's a guy who leaves his lunch on a picnic table and goes to look at something in the forest and his lunch gets stolen awesome i love this and i'm thinking to myself yeah i cannot believe on all days i see this it's the same day as jeff's

tortured analogy unbelievable it's brilliant and that's the universe reminding you how smart it was do you not you know understand what that was elliot that was the universe saying hey you need to pay attention to what jeff is saying like there's a lesson in there the universe was trying to teach you whether you choose to receive it or not i suppose it's your own business but that was the universe tapping you on the shoulder. The least you could do is turn around and say, am I supposed to learn something here? It's like matter,

antimatter. There's no energy created. It's all one way or the other. It's the law of what? Conservation of mass. Yes. So you came up with a stupid idea and youtube my son was watching came up with a good one all right let's go lots of coaching stuff to talk yeah as i've told you

before elliot i'd agree with you if you were right now coming up on the podcast today we're going to talk to uh kirk muller um and appropriately enough we are talking to a coach on a day where this podcast is going to revolve a lot around coaches. And we'll talk about coach signings. We'll talk about coaches parting ways with their teams. As we record this on Sunday afternoon, two coaches are no longer with their NHL clubs. The hunt is on for replacements and the hunt is on for both of them to find new places of employment. We'll start with the Columbus Blue Jackets.

And after six seasons, there is a parting of the ways between John Tortorella and the CBJs, as they are called. I don't want to say that this was predictable, but many looked at this season, how it was going, the lack of contract extension after this season, and said, this is probably just going to resolve itself at the end of the season when John Tortorella no longer being around Nationwide Arena. What happened here? I think you said it right. It was predictable. Even if you don't want to use the exact word or phrase,

it was predictable. I think we all knew this was coming. I don't think that anyone needed to say, hey, we need to fire you. I don't think there needed to be any kind of long conversation. Everybody knew what was going on here, what was coming down here. And I really liked that in his last game, for example, he pulled the video coach out of his regular viewing area and said, why don't you come and change the defense pairs for a period i thought that was a really nice thing to do the key thing here i wondered tortorella will be 63

in june does he want to coach and is he retiring and i think the answer is bleep no i want to coach i think he does want to coach i think he's going to make that very clear to me one of the most interesting conversations is going to come out of this year is already the reports are out and i believe they're true arizona is going to try to go young so a coach like tortorella who's in his age range we interviewed bob hartley last week he's 60 you know tortorella will be 63 i don't know if ageist is the right word i don't know if ageist is the right word. I don't know if this is ageism because I'm not sure it's actual specific anti-age prejudice or it's simply a conversation about do you need younger people to relate to younger players? But I do think that especially the rebuilding teams are going to look at younger coaches. going to look at younger coaches. The other thing too, I'm really curious about here is going to be salary. You know, we've talked about this. There's a big conversation being held about how much coaches and executives make. Rod Brindamore has an extension on the table that we believe is

verbally agreed to. It's a three-year extension at $1.8 million per season. It is well below market value. He could do at least double that if he wanted to on the open market. He doesn't want to leave Carolina and the Hurricanes know that. Now, what's going to happen here is you're going to see some teams say, well, hey, Brindamore makes this, so how can you get more than him while you know people are going to say look like his situation is unique he's not leaving there he's not using his leverage however i think for a lot of coaches here there's going to be a conversation about are you willing to work for less than you've worked before i think some teams are going to squeeze it tight. And I think a lot of these coaches who've been used to the $2 million to $3 million salaries,

they're going to have to look at it and say, okay, how do we feel about that? The way that I look at Brindamore and coming in under market, I think we've talked about this before. When you look at your career, do you look at it year to year or do you look at the entirety of it? Like do you look at it and do you say, you know, only a couple of years out, this is how much money I want to make? Or do you say, here's how much I want to make in 20 years? where it might look like a haircut and feel like a haircut or coming in under market value, which he is, I look at the Brendamore situation and I say, he's coaching a really good young team. And it's a team that's going to be good for a lot of years and can probably be really successful and probably win at least one Stanley Cup. And then once you have that on your resume, all of a sudden, your ticket changes. So look at Brendamore's situation.

I say, this is an example of a guy, at least to me, Elliot, who's trying to play the long game here. And if you're playing the long game, you want to be on a winner. And if you're playing the long game, you want to be on a winner because once you're involved with a winning organization, once you're a winning coach, you're a winning coach when it comes to being hired. All of a sudden, bring in this guy. He's a proven winner. And that's where you get paid. To me, if you look at your career as a ladder, on which rung do you really try to monetize the most? And if I'm Rod Brindamore, I say to myself here, okay, I know that my owner doesn't want to pay me what I'm worth on the open market, but there is value in me staying here because this can lead

to a bigger paycheck somewhere down the road. I don't believe that in this case. I think this is simply a person who does not want to leave that area of the league. I had a really long conversation with another coach about this yesterday, and we were talking about the responsibility versus personal happiness question. And this coach and I were talking about, Bryn Amor is happy. And what's the old line? Don't bleep with happy. And if a person's situation says, I want to be here and I don't want to leave here, nobody has a right to complain about that. I support Bryn Amor's decision. If this gets done, and I think most people believe it's going to get done, but still I believe his staff is fighting for their contracts too.

I think that's the, we've talked about this. It's the last conversation here. Nobody has a right to tell somebody else they should do something that isn't best for their family or might make them unhappy. I understand the whole position about, well, you know, like you've got to do what's best. You know, Mike Babcock, when he got his big deal from Toronto, he was very proud of the fact that he blew the lid off the salaries.

The way I look at it is, and we talked about this a bit last night on Hockey Night, there's a book I'm looking at right now. It's in my library. It's called The Bald Truth. It's written by David Falk, who represented a lot of top nba players like michael jordan and patrick ewing and what he would do is he if he saw a deal that a team used against him that was sub market or that someone else had signed that he felt was sub market he would flip the conversation say that's their situation that's not your situation and if he felt he had leverage with a player that would be his answer now sometimes you don't have leverage sometimes you know they're going to say all right well he makes this so you make this and you might not have a choice or you might be forced

into making a decision if they're not willing to go past a certain point but you know the overall brendamore thing my position is if he's happy, he's happy and nothing can be done about that. He's happy. It's the decision he wants to make for his family. We have to respect that. And other coaches are simply going to have to say, if I was being compared to that, I wouldn't like it, but I would simply have to find a different way to negotiate. And there's been times in my career where I've had the hammer and I've used it. And there've been times in my career where I've wanted the hammer and haven't had it. I haven't gotten everything I wanted.

So I understand it. I appreciate it. But I just don't think at the end of the day, it's someone's life. They have to make the choices that are best for their family, especially now. So back to Columbus then, what do you think of the john tortorella era in columbus like if you can isolate a couple of like for me the first intermission of the first game against tampa in the playoffs like that is the crowning achievement for john tortorella he keeps bo Bobrovsky in and they rebound. Oh, and you know, the, and, and the, the speech in the locker, like all of it, like that to me is like, if you're going to pinpoint one moment where like, okay, what is John Tortorella in Columbus?

That was it between the first and second period of game one against Tampa in that sweep series. That to me is John Tortorella in Columbus. Who's John Tortorella in Columbus to you? That to me is John Tortorella in Columbus. Who's John Tortorella in Columbus to you? Well, if you heard the crowd last night, they really thought highly of him. So this is the lesson I would learn about John Tortorella if I was the next team to hire him. John Tortorella coached in Columbus for how many years? It was one too many. So put it this way. I think there are a lot of players who liked being coached by John Tortorella more than we realize. Many more than we realize. I think there's a lot more players who liked being coached by him than we recognize

because a lot of us see the crazy stuff and we give that weight like for example so aaron port's line of the athletic who i think is you know one of the best reporters in the league no you know nobody knows their market better than he does he did a piece last week asking people to talk anonymously about the blue jackets and when he tweeted about it the night before i think everyone thought it was going to be a hit piece right like just you're given anonymity and you know when people are given anonymity they are going to use it to their advantage they're going to clobber people. It didn't. I thought it was really balanced and I thought it was really fair.

And for the most part, the players were complimentary of Tortorella. But there was one quote, and I'm saying it from memory, I don't have it right in front of me, but basically said, you know, you've got to fire the coach, right? And the person was even still fair to Tortorella, but basically said it was time. I think if a year ago, if Tortorella leaves Columbus, his legacy is secure there. It was one year too long. And like my question is,

do you leave a place better than when you found it? And my answer on Tortorella would be yes, he did. But there was enough that happened this year that I bet if everybody there could go back, including him, they would probably say, we wish we would have done it one year ago. Now, one year ago, I think they were considering it. And I do think Tortorella was tired, but what I heard happen was there were several very key players on that team that asked the organization and Tortorella

to come back for a year. And I just think that they agreed to do it, and I think if everybody, Tortorella, the team, even some of the players would go back, they would probably say, you know what? We probably were one year too long. So if I'm hiring Tortorella, I recognize that A, I've got a good team. B, I've got veterans. And C, I know that I'm doing this with a certain window. That's the way I look at it. So one of the questions that everyone's wondering now that, you know, John Tortorella has to indicate, look, there's still coaching life in me, is what's next for John Tortorella?

Like, where are the possible landing spots? I know a sexy story is the Rangers. Another one would be a full circle spot, which would be the Buffalo Sabres. What do you think, Freach? Again, I think it's going to depend on what some of these teams' goals are. What are the Sabres' goals next year? We know what the Rangers' goals are.

I do think that if they make the change, and I think that's a decision that Chris Drury is going to listen to what his players have to say and kind of make that call from there I think there would be interest if there was a change in New York in Tortorella I don't know if he would become the front runner but I do think they would have some interest see one of the things I'm wondering about is, you know, Tortorella's last job, he went into Columbus when they started a season 0-8, right? Oh, yeah. Like, what happens if he doesn't have a job

at the beginning of next year and someone goes to him early in the season? Like, I don't know, but I could see that. It goes back to what we're talking about. It's going to be an interesting off season because I think a lot of these hirings are going to come down to what these teams are looking for. Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to win?

And also how much are they willing to spend? And then there's the Seattle equation and all this. They want an experienced coach. I'll tell you something too. I don't know what to make of the whole Travis Green situation in Vancouver either. The Canucks are, they're an interesting team. Like they wait and they wait and they wait and they wait and they say, yeah, we want to get things done.

And they get some things done. They don't get other things done. It's, um, I don't know how to handicap what's going on there right now. So what I've always been led to believe based on the people that I've talked to, who I believe it sounded early on this season that Travis Green had either a number or a range in his mind of what he was worth and didn't want to come off that. I think there's truth to that.

Is that still the case though? I don't know the answer. I asked legit. Is that still the case? I think there's a number he wants. I don't know what that number is. I got to think it's probably over two, but I don't know that. I think the Canucks want to come in lower than that.

And I don't think there's been a lot of conversation there this year. I think there've, you know, the best I can tell is like the team's kind of said at times, what do you think about this number? And he said, I kind of like this number and they're really, but there really hasn't been a lot of negotiation. I find it really hard to read what's going to happen there. What I wonder about here is, and we sort

of talked about this with Rod Brindamore who, you know, comes in, you know, when this thing finally ever gets done, he's coming in under, under market value. Yeah. And I wonder what that does to, I wonder what that does to the slotting of all other coaches whose contracts expire. What it becomes is it becomes a who's got the leverage.

The reason I bring up slotting, because that's the normal course of business in a quote unquote normal season. This coach makes this much, therefore I should make that much. And everybody sort of agrees on those amounts. And you have a rough ballpark of what coaches are making, how they're all slotted, and how they're compensated. This is the freak year. And this is a freak year that sort of winks at a few years coming up right now, where traditionally owners of teams may have said, okay, well, fine, financially, that makes sense based on precedent. But right now, it's a totally new universe.

Right now, it's completely different. So I wonder how many teams are just saying, don't tell me about the old model. We're starting a new one now. I think you're totally right about that. How much reset then is Columbus going to go through now with a new head coach coming in? So this is my question, and I'm sure we'll hear the answer when Yarmulke Kalanen meets with the media. What do they see themselves as? Are they rebuilding or are they contending?

Like he's going after a center, but is he keeping Patrick Laine or is he flipping him? To me, the first thing that has to be asked if you're Jarmo Kekulainen, even before maybe you start looking to go out and get a centerman, or two centermen, really, when it comes down to it, is what's happening with Seth Jones? Well, yeah, you're right. I should have said that first. That is the biggest question.

That's the whopper because everything changes when Jarmo is allowed to re-sign Seth Jones and extend him. If he says no, then everything changes in Columbus. Honestly, maybe I'm too naive here. Maybe I'm missing something. But isn't Columbus's direction predicated on will Seth Jones resign or not? And if he will resign, then this is not a rebuild. But if he says,

no, I'm not interested in extension. I'm going to test the market when my deal is up in one year, then all of a sudden all bets are off. Well, I think it depends on what you think you can get for him too, right? Sure. But you don't think you can get a first line center for Seth Jones? My answer would be yes, but just centers are really hard to find, right? Sure. They're hard to get. Yep. No doubt.

And so are defensemen like Seth Jones too. I agree with that. Like you're not, like I'm a Seth Jones stan. Like it's not like you're arguing, you have to really argue with me here. You know, the only thing that, you know, I think will make people nervous about Jones is there's a big contract that comes at the end of this, right? You're a year away from a contract. So, you know, what do you think you need to sign Seth Jones for probably determines a lot of that question. But I agree with you.

If A, what does Jones think? And B, if the answer is no, what can you get for him? And I think you're probably in the same boat as with Zach Wierenski. Now, Wierenski is two years away from UFA as opposed to one, but you can extend him after this season. So the question becomes then, Tortorella exits, who goes in? So I think it depends on the direction. What is the direction of the team?

Because Arizona, I think, for example, is different. There have already been some reports that Arizona, for example, also the mutual parting with Rick Talkett, they're going young. Who are some of the names that have been out there already? Rocky Thompson, Nate Lehman, Lane Lambert, I think would be in that conversation. One name that makes a lot of sense to me there, I just don't know if he'd be interested,

is Mike Van Ryn. Because Mike Van Ryn coached, was an assistant in Arizona, and then he went to St. Louis when Bill Armstrong was there. So that makes a lot of sense. I just don't know if Van Ryan would want that particular job. Like, I don't know.

So Arizona, to me, what that says is they know what they're doing here, and that is rebuilding a bit. I'm not sure yet what Columbus Vision is. Let's get to Arizona. So the parting of the ways after four seasons, Rick Talkett, Arizona Coyotes. You know the name that I'm curious about just because it was an interesting hiring at the time. So I wonder what the pitch was. And that's Corey Stillman. So they got Corey Stillman away from

the Sudbury Wolves of the OHL where he was coaching his son. I would have to figure that Scott Walker would have been part of that pitch to get him into Arizona. And I'm not saying that the pitch is something along the lines of, hey, you know what? The minute the organization is done with Rick Talkett, this should be a good place for you. And you may end up as the head coach of this team. But I wonder, when you talk about this team wanting to go younger and wanting someone that relates to younger hockey players,

Stillman's already there. The organization knows him. He's 47 years old. I don't know. Frege. That's a name that pops right out. It's funny. You mentioned this.

Cause I think you told me this and I've asked around and the answer I've heard is not yet. Like I think he will get his chance someday. I've heard Corey Stillman will be an NHL coach someday. But someone who was handicapping the situation for me said he doesn't think that's going to be the case yet. But they think he will be an NHL head coach someday. Curious what quote unquote happened here with Rick Tockett and the Arizona Coyotes. Do you have a sense of why he is no longer with the organization? I just don't think that was a marriage that was ever going to last, right?

So Rick Tockett was hired by the previous administration. There's a new administration that came in, Bill Armstrong. Tockett was still under contract. Just in texting around the organization today after the announcement was made, one of the words I got was awkward, just to describe it all year. You could kind of tell that they weren't on the same page.

They tried to keep it away from the players, but, you know, people knew, people know. They knew that Talkett wasn't coming back, that they didn't see completely eye to eye on some things. And I think everybody kind of knew it was going to come to this at the end of the year. I don't think this comes as a huge shock to anyone. Any idea what's next for Rick Talkett?

Worked as a head coach, worked as an assistant? Well, I think he's going to have some options. Anthony Stewart was tweeting, of course, that he played with Ron Francis in Pittsburgh. Where does Jim Rutherford show up? And what could that mean for Rick Tockett? One of the things that Tockett has a great reputation with, and it's not a surprise when you hear about

what his relationship is with Phil Kessel, is that he's one of the best around at handling players who are not easy to reach. Hmm. That he is fantastic at dealing with players like that. So I wonder, is there a team that thinks they have a situation like that, a player they need to get to? That's one where Talkit really knows what to do.

You mentioned Phil Kessel there. Let me get a quick thought from you on Phil Kessel. I was texting with a lawyer friend of mine who works for one of the hockey organizations, and he said, look at Phil Kessel. I was texting with a lawyer friend of mine who works for one of the hockey organizations. And he said, look at Phil Kessel, 20 goals, again, shortened season. And he made the point that in a league that so strongly values offensive production, this guy produces each and every season throw in the 900 consecutive games as well and there's phil kessel i don't know that i've ever asked you this what are your thoughts on phil kessel one more year under contract right yep signing bonus Yep. Signing bonus, $5 million. So what's the actual cash? $1.8 million.

They're going to see if anyone wants to go for that. You know the storyline that I was trying to get going around trade deadline as a talking point. Kessel back to the Bruins. Oh, that's right. I remember that. Oh, my God. That was crazy time.

I thought you would enjoy that. But that's the thing. Arizona needs picks and prospects, right? Oh, that's what they're after. Give me first rounders. Give me prospects. Give me kids. Yes.

Like, I wonder if that's what they do. Well, look around the NHL universe and look at your goal-starved teams. And look what Phil Kessel does. He scores easy goals with that shot, and he produces every year. Pencil him in, 25, 30 goals. One year of Kessel just had, as you say, a 20-goal season. One of the other questions we have about the Arizona Coyotes

is are they going to hire an assistant general manager? That's a good question. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Okay, on that, we'll welcome you to the program everybody now that our little monologue is over uh 31 thoughts uh the podcast the coach's edition featuring kirk muller presented by the gmc sierra at4 welcome to it Here's Eugene Hopkins now. Dreisaitl takes a look. McDavid coming from the point, moving up.

His pass hit a skate and Nurse is able to recover and keep it alive for Edmonton. McDavid. Driesleitel shoots. Scores! Driesleitel scores! But the torch is being passed on from one great to the next. The century mark in just 53 games for Connor McDavid! Great call by Harnarayan Singh.

Connor McDavid, 100 points. Listen, I thought in our Sportsnet predictions, Elliot, that I was being a little over the top saying, ah, Art Ross trophy's going to be 95 points. Uh, yeah, not so fast. Connor McDavid, a hundred. We're going to get to Connor here in a couple of moments, but I want to pick up on the coach's conversation from a couple of moments ago. Where is Gerard Gallant in all of this? It seems as if you can make the argument for all these positions that become available that Gerard Gallant may just be a fit. Oh yeah.

I have to say it's actually surprising to me that this guy who took Vegas to the Stanley cup in his first season and their first season doesn't have a head coaching job yet. Yep. It's actually a big surprise to me. I got to think he's going to be in here. No question about that for me. He's going to be in.

I just believe it. And I think it's going to happen. Can I pick where yet? No, I want to see where everything ends up. But the one thing that is true is he's going to the world championships this week sometime. So I could see some teams jumping in and interviewing him before he goes away.

You know, maybe the obvious story is, well, he did it with Vegas. Could he do it with Seattle? You'll wonder if there would be interest there from Ron Francis. I have no idea. I know it's a really easy story. All I know is if I'm any team in the NHl elliot and i have a coaching vacancy to phil he's gonna be one of my phone calls he's gonna be one of my conversations easy i think you just heard what i said i completely agree with you that's a layup okay um mark bergevin contract

extension what do you hear what do you know so i i heard that they've been talking about it and Bergevin wouldn't talk. Jeff Molson wouldn't talk. Everybody's really careful. You know, it's interesting that one of the people I spoke to about it, just kind of trying to gather some information, he said to me that you're working on this at a very tricky time for them, right? You know, they still haven't clinched as we do this on Sunday afternoon. They hadn't clinched their playoff berth yet.

Now they're going to get in barring the miracle of all miracles, but it wasn't done. Like I think Jeff Molson believes in Mark Bergevin. I do. I think he believes in his vision, but it still hasn't been put to bed by the time that we do this podcast. I think they've talked about an extension. I think they've talked about what it could look like,

but someone else said to me, what if the way this ends, this know, Bergevin says he's tired or he's had enough or anything like that. So I think what they're doing is they're kind of talking about how they're feeling, where things are, how does Bergevin feel how does molson feel but i do think there have been negotiations on an extension and the only thing with me is i mean you know how careful i try to be jeff i don't want to say anything until we know for sure but i do think they've explored all options bergevin's last extension was done, I think 19 months before his contract was up.

I don't believe the Canadians want to go into next year without some clarity of his future. If you go into Montreal with your GM in the last year of his deal, I mean, look how it's gone for, you know, Carolina in the last week or two. It's going to be a billion times that for Montreal. So I think they're searching for clarity and I think they're working at it.

But I do think there've been negotiations on an extension and also conversations on what it could mean if we don't get to one. Conor McDavid. Let's fly through a couple of these topics here. Conor McDavid hits a hundred points. Yeah. I don't know at what point it became obvious that he was going to hit the century mark,

but it felt like it was really easy for him. You know, like it, it, it felt like in his mind, there was a never a doubt. He was going to win the art Ross and B never a doubt. He's going to hit the century mark as much as he, and every postgame press conference wants to, you know, defer to all of his teammates and talk about their accomplishments and not his.

Did you not get the sense that there was almost a singular focus with McDavid this season that he wanted to remind the NHL who the real boss was and who the best player was. I totally believe that. I think the best are motivated that way. You know the one reason I think some people get kind of turned away from that theory, Jeff? Do you remember earlier this year when Matthews had the four-point game

on the Saturday night and then McDavid went out and had five points against Calgary in the back end of the doubleheader? Yeah. So we're all talking on the show about how there's no doubt that McDavid watched that

and he's like, I'm going to do better. And so a reporter heard that. I don't remember who the reporter was, but they asked McDavid that and he's like, why would you ask that question? i think it i think it it it takes people away from that right you you hear mcdavid say that and and you're thinking i can't really go with that narrative because he shot it

down but i i do think that whether they admit it publicly or not, they're driven to be the best. They are demanding to be the best. Elliot, you know why I don't put much stock in that response to the reporter about the Matthews question? Here's this question. Who is the last person that Conor McDavid wants to talk about? Jeff Merrick? And Conor McDavid himself. The two are neck and neck.

But like he goes out of his way not to bring attention onto himself other than how he plays and where he cannot help but bring attention to himself. It's almost like he's that classic, just watch what I do and then let me talk about something else. Let me talk about my teammates.

Let me talk about something that I feel is greater than myself at the risk of diminishing everything I've just done. But listen, I've just done it in front of all of your eyes. So that should be enough. Don't ask me to talk about myself. That's my talking. That's Connor. That's Connor.

Could be. I was surprised by that answer, though. It was pretty blunt. It was pretty pointed. But yeah. I was surprised by that answer, though. It was pretty blunt. It was pretty pointed. But yeah, I mean, that could be the reason. Like, I'm not going to argue with you. Certainly could be the answer. But I've said it many times.

I think he's been totally shafted on MVP voting most of the last few years. I think that he set such an impossible standard for himself that like even this year, I don't want to weigh into this because I think this is the stupidest debate ever. Like what's Twitter. It's full of stupid debates. There's this one now about it doesn't matter because the North is soft.

I mean, come on. Like every division has crappy teams. Come on. But the thing that people are pointing to, to, uh, I would actually say that the North has less crappy teams than a few other

divisions do. But as people have pointed out to defend the North, you know, all of a sudden Sam Bennett looks like a superstar after he leaves Calgary and, uh, and Barabanov in San Jose, he's point a game. And couldn't make the Maple Leafs lineup.

You can go through the entire league with this kind of stuff, right? It's just stupid. I'll tell you what, though. That's what makes the playoffs, you know, after the first two rounds intriguing for anyone that follows a team in the North Division. Because, Elliot, as you all know, in the back of everyone's mind,

and maybe it is just Canadian insecurity in general, don't you get the feeling that every marketplace, there is a place in everybody's brain where they wonder, are we good enough? They look at Vegas, they look at Carolina, they look at Colorado, go right down the look at Colorado go right down the list Washington Pittsburgh wins the division the Islanders are a tough out and say to themselves I don't know if we're good enough you know I gotta tell you this I guarantee there's a ton of their people there

they're just I always laugh when people do do this. They're marking tweets now and screenshotting them for the third round of the playoffs. Of course. They're like, I hope I get a chance to embarrass this person in six weeks because the North Division winner wins their semifinal or the other way around. There's somebody down there, some crazy hockey fan in Vegas now, it's probably Garyary lawless who is

saving tweets about how good the north division is so he can put them all out after vegas beats the canadian winner of the third round i mean it's it's so funny it really is funny all i know is every fan base in canada has that niggling little feeling that maybe they're not as good as the teams in the u.s i think you should do a five-part special on radio this week the insecurity of the canadian teams of every single canadian market i just think that's a canadian thing in Listen, that's more of a cultural conversation. We worry too much what other people think about us. We really do.

We've always been that way. It's always how we've measured ourselves. But the thing is, you know what, though? One of the best comments I ever heard about this was from Mike Myers. Mike Myers was on the Dave Letterman Show, and Letterman said, how come it seems per capita there are more comedians and comedic critics that come out of Canada than the United States?

And Myers in a really, really smart answer said, well, here's the difference. Americans watch TV. Canadians watch American TV. I thought that was a really smart response. There's an ironic layer that exists between what Canadians consume and the actual event itself, whereas Americans are just consuming what they're involved in, that there's a critical awareness about U.S. culture that the United States doesn't have because they're it. sidetracked. I want to ask you a couple of things really quickly on some things that happened this season. Namely, are three Philadelphia Flyers going to win the Pittsburgh Penguins the Stanley Cup? Ron Hextall, Brian Burke, who played for the Maine Mariners, and Jeff Carter. What a story this has been, Elliot. I know Nashville was a great story to get to the

playoffs, but man, the Pittsburgh Penguins win the division. Like I told you, the 30 for 30, if the Penguins win the Stanley Cup, about how Brian Burke saved everything, it's going to be something else. Listen, this really is a remarkable achievement for Pittsburgh. I still have another week to really sort out my ballot, but right now my heart trophy ballot is McDavid 1, Matthews 2, Crosby 3.

Carter is unbelievable. You know what Carter reminds me of of i've learned this myself it's the danger of comfort he was comfortable in la didn't want to leave i totally understand why his family very happy there now goes to pittsburgh sometimes we just need to get jolted out of our system and if you're going to get jolted out of our system. And if you're going to get jolted out of your system, I mean, Pittsburgh and being in the same room as Sidney Crosby, where there is a work rate established by the captain that you're embarrassed not to follow. Like that's just like how many times have you talked to someone that went through the Pittsburgh experience and said, man, like I was embarrassed not to work as hard as Sidney Crosby. I was never going to be as good as him, but that guy worked harder than all of us. And it made everyone embarrassed who didn't try to work the same. But that's why you can make the argument that as far as heart trophy candidates,

Crosby should always be in the conversation because of what he sets in Pittsburgh. Ask everybody who's been through Pittsburgh. They all say the same thing. I'm good with that. Everybody who's been through Pittsburgh, they all say the same thing. I'm good with that. The first round series I'm perhaps looking most forward to. Florida, Tampa.

Is Florida, Tampa. You know, I got to say this. If I didn't live in Canada, I probably wouldn't feel this way. But as a Canadian, I think it has to be Montreal, Toronto. Just because we haven't seen this for a generation. There are two series. One is the historic pull at your heartstrings. It's been too long since these two have met in the playoffs, Montreal-Toronto.

But there's the other, which is these two teams who share a state have never played against each other in the playoffs, and it is long overdue, and that's Florida-Tampa. Whoever plays Minnesota is going to be a good series, too. I agree, and all I know is the best games I've seen this season are Minnesota-Vegas. Those have been the best games this season, period. Do you have a quick thought on Florida-Tampa?

Oh, my goodness. That's going to be something else. Let's just hope that it goes seven games, because a game seven between these two teams, we've all been waiting. How many times have we been waiting for Tampa and Florida to be good at the same time? Forever, right?

Here we are. And here we are. Quick break. We're going to come back and talk to Kirk Muller. I wonder if he fills one of these coaching vacancies. We'll talk to Kirk Muller on 31 Thoughts to Podcast in a moment. We are pleased to be joined by Kirk Muller, who considering his background both in coaching and in playing as well, Elliot, really doesn't need much of an introduction on a podcast like this.

So we'll start off with Kirk. Hello. How are you? What has Kirk Muller been doing lately? I've actually been down here in California for the big reason that I just became a grandfather for the fourth time and came down to visit my daughter, who's married to Brad Malone, involved with Bakersfield Condors. So I'm watching a lot of American Hockey League games and enjoying my new granddaughter. What is the feeling of becoming a grandfather? And by the way, you probably look like the youngest grandfather in North America. I've been nonstop. I have a three-year-old down here as well. So I haven't had time to shave. So I don't look like Elliot did in the playoffs. But no, you know what? I'll tell you what, the NHL is a grind and it's a busy schedule, but keeping up to a three-year-old and a newborn, I think it beats it. But it's been amazing.

It's been special that I'm able to be here. And it's been fun. It's been fun. I hope you and Stacey spoil those grandkids rotten. That's what you're there for. Yep. Yeah, you know what? We just absolutely came in and took over the grandkids and all the good habits that they've

been working on, especially everyone who has a three-year-old knows we've kind of just spoiled them. So we're going to tiptoe out of here and head back to Canada soon. And they're going to have to break all the bad habits. You know, Kirk, it's, you've had some time to sit back and think the Canadians made a coaching change back in February. And just, you know, in the couple months since, what do you look back about? What do you think about?

And how much do you watch them right now? When you're out here, that's the one thing you get to see the Eastern games and then catch the Western games because of the three-hour time change. So you get that benefit of seeing more games usually. But I've caught Brad's games, a lot of the American Hockey League games because they're still active out here playing in Bakersfield. So it's a good chance to sit back and watch games and not have to be involved with one team so you can be neutral mind on everything.

But, no, I've caught Montreal playing and, you know, they ran into some injuries to some key guys that have, you know, obviously, you know, like any team, you know, it's tough when you lose key guys like Gallagher and, you know, Paulie Byron's a big key to the team as far as a core guy, the glue guy and all that, and with obviously the carry. So, you know, they've gone through the challenges of a schedule, a tough schedule with injuries and all that.

But they're a really good group of guys, and they got a lot of character there. They got a lot of good additions, and I wish them well. I know what it's like to be in a lot of character there. They got a lot of good additions and I wish them well. I know what it's like to be in a pressure market like that and how hard it is. And this is a tough year in the world for COVID and everything and a challenging year. And I hope those guys do well because they're good people.

You mentioned that marketplace and Jonathan Drouin has taken leave from the team right now. And we've talked a lot about the pressures on hockey players in the big markets and have made the point previous that Montreal might just be top of that list. Give us a sense of what that market is like and the nature of the pressure that's on, well, really everybody in the Montreal Canadiens organization? Well, it's what makes it a special place. And the fans are passionate. The media, as we know, is a lot of pressure, passionate. You know, the whole province, the whole Montreal fans within the country, North America, the world.

You know, the history, there's high expectations. But I think that's what you really, I even really enjoyed, you know, the history there's high expectations but i think that's what you really i even really enjoyed uh you know coaching there and playing there and feeling honored to be a part of that organization but it's like when i got traded there uh as a player and d carbinal said to me right off the start one of the first things he said he goes i gotta tell you something i know you came from new jersey and uh you know, the market down there, but just understand that if you're the goat today, don't worry about it because tomorrow somebody else will be or it's a new story.

So if you can understand that it's a day-to-day event, what happens today is old news tomorrow. And always understand that if you're playing well, you're probably not playing as well as you're being told you are. And if you're playing poorly, you're probably not playing as poorly as you are. So the key is longevity and being even keel and riding the waves. And if you could do that in those markets like Toronto and Montreal and New York

and all that, I think, you know, you get, you understand it once you're there that you're not going to be great all the time. You're not going to be, you know, poor all the time, but just ride the waves and be consistent and just stay the course. And if you have that confidence of doing that, then, you know, you see people do well in those markets because they thrive on the other part of it, which is the pressure and the excitement and the demands and everything. And as a player, I love playing there because of those reasons. It's so funny that Jamie Baker always said that when Baker ended up in Toronto, Wendell Clark told him, listen, you're never as good as they say you are,

and you're never as bad as they say you are and you're never as bad as they say you are I've always remembered that like Kirk you and Wendell must you know go read the same books because it's the exact same advice well I know Wendell doesn't read so uh so that's not don't tell him I said that but uh no uh no, it's true. You know, Wendell's been involved at the least as a player, obviously his great career there. And then he came back and, you know, he understands it, you know, the, the pressure, the, and it all comes down to the great thing about it is both cities have fabulous, passionate fans and they want to win. And if you're going to be that passionate and you want to win, there comes consequences and demands. But I'll tell you what, I always say this, when I

was in Montreal playing and you come off a long road trip from out west and you're exhausted, the hardest game to play is that first game back home. And, you know, it's because of the travel, the jet lag, the three-hour time change. And you get back and the fans are like, wow, we have not seen you in two weeks. You know, here's my ticket. I'm coming to the game. I want to see you guys dominate. You're back home. You should be fired up. And you go out and you're like, I got nothing. It's the worst feeling in the world. And I remember Montreal, you know, that first period and we would come out West and we would have a great record of maybe five wins and seven gains and feel good and go back and you got

nothing. And right off the hop, those fans would be letting, you know what, you know, you'd hear a few boos and all that. And you're like, okay, I better pick up my game. So, you know, it's amazing how the mind is powerful, and it gets you jump-started, you know, when you got nothing in the tank. And that's pure mental, pure fan pressure, which makes it awesome. I am curious about, you mentioned earlier on the playoffs, and I'll tell you what that was you know last year in the bubble very challenging time for everybody to understand that and you're behind the bench and you're able to sweep the pittsburgh penguins and this is a season where come trade deadline time montreal was all out and they find themselves in the uh in the bubble in the postseason, and you did something that was pretty special.

I guess this is a long-winded way, Kirk, of me asking, how did you do that? It's really interesting when you look at it. You know, COVID hits, we're sitting in Montreal, and we play Buffalo that night. Looking back at it, that game never happened. If Buffalo beats us that night, they would advance and went to the bubble. And we would not have. The game doesn't happen.

We end up being the team that gets in last. So here we are, a non-playoff team. Circumstances happen. We get a chance to go into Toronto and compete in the playoffs. You know, basically what happened is, you know, we got together, we prepared a lot of meetings because it was a short camp. And I give the players credit. And we did our meetings, we did our prep, we walked in, and I thought we're, you know, a well-prepared team that was ready to go. And we upset a good hockey team and surprised a lot of people. And when that happens, you know, it's quickly we see every year,

once you get into the playoffs, anything can happen. And momentum kicks in, confidence kicks in, timing kicks in. And then, unfortunately, you know, Klo got sick. But the nice thing was within a day, we were well aware that he had recovered and he was in good shape and he was going to be fine. So it gave us a chance to go, we can now just focus on round two with the team that was Philadelphia, that was the hottest team in the league going into the bubbles.

And again, the guys performed well, they played hard, and we almost did an upset in round two. The guy who I think really took a huge step was Suzuki. Yeah, you know what? And I think that was the thing that happened that was great was it gave Suzuki and KK, some of these young guys, an opportunity to play and gain confidence. And, hey, listen, it was a unique situation.

We're in Toronto. All focus is on the playoffs in two places, Edmonton and Toronto. And these guys shine under the pressure. So he's a very smart player. He's a very methodical player. That was his opportunity to say, hey, you know, listen, I was a pretty darn good player in junior and had great success. And I think I could do that at this level as well. So, you know, it showed that, you know, what a good NHL player this kid is and what he's going

to be. He's going to get better and better. This may be unfair, and I almost hate doing this to players, but is there anyone you couldn't compare Nick Suzuki to in the NHL? He's a huge fan of Patrice Bergeron. He trains in Stratford with Joey Hisham and loves working out with Ryan O'Reilly. Is there anyone you could compare him to? I thought Bergeron is a good example in a way because Suzuki, two things, he takes a lot of pride in his game offensively, and he takes a lot of pride in the game without the puck. And I think that gives him the ability to be a two-way player. And both those players, they don't play with a mean streak, but they have a little bit of edge to them that they're competitors,

and you're not going to get them off their game. They're both going to be focused on the agenda that's at hand. And, you know, whether it's, you know, trying to shut down another elite player or they got to score a big goal. And he's a mature kid for his age and he knows how to play the game and he's smart. So when you compete and you're smart, you just get to get better and better in any sport or anything you do. And that's what Suzuki has the potential of being. What are your thoughts on Kotkaniemi? KK is a kid that's in that progress of getting better and better.

You know, he came over and he's got the body that he's still filling out. And, you know, people forget the NHL is tough and, you know, you're playing against men quickly. And, you know, I know that he, you know, he's playing against men overseas before he came over and everything, but I tell you, it takes a couple of years to get your feet wet and understand who your opponents, who you're playing. He had to learn the North American game a little bit, you know, as well. So that takes a little bit of time, just that alone. And so if you see the progress in him, he's a kid that's starting to get that more man strength. You know, his skating's improved, his strength's improved.

He's got a heck of a shot. You know, he sees the ice well. He's another kid that's very determined and, you know, wants the ice well he's another kid that's very uh determined and uh you know uh wants to get better wants to be a part of a winning team and i think it just it's taken him he's you know he's he's still a young he's still one of the youngest players in the nhl and you know you put that all together you got a kid that's got a lot of potential and again i say this all the time if you're willing to want to get better, you probably will get better. And those two guys have that type of attitude.

We asked Bob Hartley this question. We just had him on the podcast not too long ago. And we asked him about some of his favorite coaches, not necessarily mentors, but coaches that he's admired. A couple of things. One, when did it dawn on you that coaching might be something you'd be interested in? And who are the coaches, Kirk, that had the most or the biggest effect on you all your way through the NHL? Well, I'll start with some coaches, yeah, definitely that I had as a player.

Pat Burns was amazing. When I got to Montreal, he was the one coach that I'd say he had that ability to grab you as a team. And although I hated his practices because there was so much grinding one-on-one and defensive grinding, they weren't sexy, fancy drills that you did with Burns. But you know what? He had the ability to say, listen, our game is really simple, and we're probably not going to surprise anybody with any little tricks or anything like when I was playing in Montreal.

But this is who we are. This is what you're going to expect, and we're going to play our game or we're going to beat you at our game. And he always made you have that feeling like you're going to win every single game. And you did it because he expected you to play the team game and do your role at the best that you're capable of doing. And that was it. That was simple.

Everyone was like, oh, Bernsie was a real tough guy, which he was, but he was so fair and he's like well what are you surprised about you didn't do your job tonight so I didn't use you or hey you played well but I expect you to play well and guess what you got to do it again tomorrow night because if you want to win you got to be consistent and I I love Bernsie because you knew exactly where you stood with Bernsie Jacques Demers happened happened to come in after Burnsy when I was in Montreal, and we won a cup with him. Totally different personality, totally different coach.

But, you know, you look at Jock, and here's a guy that, you know, won coaches of the year. He won a Stanley Cup. And his strength was he never pretended like he had all the answers, and he was the best coach in the league. He was a great players coach. He wanted feedback from his players. He wanted you to go into his room and say, listen, we practiced too hard.

I'm not sure about the travel. What about this? You know, here's some suggestions. And you know what? He took it and he would use it. And he would say, here's the deal, guys. I'll take your, I remember Carbo and Patrick and I would walk in and throw suggestions. He goes, hey, listen, I'll shorten practice. I'll do this. But guess what? It's up to you guys to make sure

we get the results and we win. So that was his ability. And he gave you the freedom to play your game, but within the team concept. So great characters of two different guys there. And I finished my career with Hitch. And the great thing about Hitch was he was fun, and I had him at the end of my career as a veteran, and we had a veteran team in Dallas. We went to the finals together. And, you know, it was fun because I don't know if I was young,

if he would have got under my skin and been tough. But as a veteran guy, he would challenge you and push us and push us and push us. And, you know, we could handle it. But you know what? He had great records. And he was probably the coach that I played for that was so well-prepared. There was never a thing that you didn't know about your opponent.

You walk in the morning, everything's organized, everything's prepared, everything's thought out. He's up early in the morning. He's at the rink early. And so for a player to walk in and be prepared to play a hockey game, I think Hitch was one of the best coaches for me as a player in that circumstances. Hitchcock has coached recently. Do you think Pat Burns could have coached today's player?

I think Burnsy could because from the outside and you see Burnsy and if you're a fan, you know, like, you know, his success in Jersey and Toronto and Montreal and, you know, good teams and everything, you know, he looked like that hardcore guy, you know, and he was. And I just described him as a player. And, you know, guys, Dougie Gilmore and Wendell and those guys, and they, I mean, Toronto, they loved him and everything.

But you know what? When you're playing for him, there's that soft spot that he really related to his players. And I think that's huge today. Like, you can be honest with the players today and they respect that and they love that. But you got to build relationships. And Burnsy wasn't the cozy, fuzzy guy,

but he certainly knew his players. And it's a different generation, but then he'd go out and have a beer with the guys and be comfortable to spend an afternoon with them. And they were comfortable with him. So they knew that he had their back and they had his back. And I think the same thing applies today. It's all about relationships with your players and getting them to know that they trust you that you're you're there to make them better and uh to get them to win hockey games okay i'm gonna throw something out here you probably weren't expecting to talk about today but and i can i can already hear elliot

rolling his eyes oh juniors no no? No, no, I'm not. Yeah, what happened with Guelph and the Team Canada? No, no, I'm not going to ask about all that stuff. But I am going to ask you because I'm forever fascinated. I always maintain that 1987 was the greatest year for hockey, period. Oh, actually, this is a good question. Okay. Canada Cup was great.

Stanley Cup Final was great. Easter Epic, like Cup was great. Stanley Cup Final was great. Easter Epic. Like, 87 was fantastic. And the one thing about 87 that I really loved was Rendezvous. Oh. Two-game series. It replaced the All-Star game at the Coliseum in Quebec City. NHL stars win one. Soviet Union wins one.

And the hockey was fantastic. And there you were. From an international site to ceremonial face-off, we are just about ready for the face-off, game one of Rendezvous 87. The NHL All-Stars against the Soviet Union, coming up. What are your memories of Rendezvous? Freezing cold weekend.

Okay. Two of the best hockey games I think I ever played in, in my whole career. You look at the talent of the two teams, the Russians at their peak, the fact that they were a team that always played together. So they were, you know,

in tune. These guys had played together, so they were in tune. These guys had played together forever. Treccia, Kasitonov. KLM line, whole KLM lines in them. The KLM line, those six guys right there. Then for me, I was shocked and so honored to be a part of that team because I had so much respect to so many peers that weren't on it.

And here I come to Quebec, and I'm playing with Wayne and Messier, and I'm sitting here like, wow, what a hockey team. And I remember going and playing in that first game, and we won. And I was like, this is unbelievable. That game, I honestly, playing in the Olympics and All-Star Games in that first game and we won yeah and i was like this is unbelievable that that game i honestly playing in olympics and all-star games and stanley cup finals and everything i have to say it was the first game where i sat there and being a part of a game and going i'm in awe like i'm in awe of the pace and the skill level of this hockey game and And yet I'm like, I got to play in this game.

I'm like, but, you know, just watching the skill and the way the game was played and everything, it was so exciting. And the fact that it came back a split. And I don't know if you can duplicate that or if it'll work again today, but best two games I think I've ever been involved with there was still a bit of a mystery at that time the Russian players yes

was there a guy that you remember playing against that maybe you didn't know and you said holy like I remember watching Valerie Kamensky and saying oh my god this guy's really good was there anyone like that for you I I honestly was going to say Kaminsky. I was like, you know, there's so much attention. And I'd gone to, as you mentioned, Olympics. And when the Russians were on fire and to see them over there, and, you know, we were, you know, we were young and we weren't, you know, obviously the top Canadian team.

But then when we bring the NHL best and we play against these guys and we're like okay now let's see it you know and so I was aware of like Krutov and Makarov and Larionov and these guys from playing against them before and first of all talking with them I never played against players that were so powerful and so hard to defend against in the corners I've never seen players like that and their leg strength and core strength, everyone talks about their skill, but you can't imagine going to corners and trying to play against these guys, their strength.

And then they have the skill level on top of that. But Kaminsky was the younger guy, and his size and his skill level and with the puck and his shooting ability and everything. I was like, I think he was the guy that really caught people off guard. Let me ask you about one specific player in the 80s as well as we sort of detour to 80s hockey here. Outside of Wayne Gretzky, no one put up more points in the 80s than Peter Stastny. Playing with the Quebec Nordiques, he would have played against them.

And then he goes to New Jersey as well. Do you have any memories of Peter Stastny? Yeah. You know, we never really had so-called like star players in Jersey at the time, like a real Hall of Fame kind of guy. And so we all started off young there, you know, John McClain, Joe Cerela, Pat Verbeek, Brendan Shanahan, myself. And we kind of, you know, started off as, you know, John McClain, Joe Cerello, Pat Verbeek, Brennan Shanahan, myself. And we kind

of, you know, started off as, as you know, you know, an organization at the bottom, we had to earn our respect to get better. And over a few years, you know, Lou came in and put his mark in the organization and we, you know, we're gaining respect and, and, but, you know, we're missing sort of those key type names and Lou brought in Peter and uh right away Peter and I and uh Claude Lemieux played together and we were lying and I thought wow uh I'm playing I'm playing with obviously a future hall of famer and I've never battled so hard with two line mates I think we battled and fought harder against each other in a good way than we did against our opponents.

Peter was a perfectionist, and he was a heck of a player. But every shift, if you made a play, and if you didn't make the right play or find him, and I say this in a very respectful way because that's what made him so good, you knew that when you got to the bench, you know, he'd be like, Kirk, I was open. You got to give that puck to me. I'm like, I said to him, I said, Peter,

see that number nine on the back of my jersey? It's not 99. So you're not going to get the puck the amount of times you think you are. So I had Claude on the other side going, hey, I was open. I go, listen, you two. Like, you know what? I'm in a non-winning situation here. But hey, listen, I say that in a fun way.

They're both competitors, and it was a fun line to play with. So you mentioned number nine there. This is something I'm glad you got us here, because I've always wanted to ask you this one. in a fun way that they're they're both competitors and uh there's a fun line to play with so you you mentioned number nine there this is something i'm glad you got us here because i've always wanted to ask you this one your first year with new jersey you were number 27 because don lever's wearing number nine yeah was there ever a conversation about hey don do you think i could wear number nine that ever happened no i had a lot of respect for don and uh i was like i wore nine you know my pretty much my whole life yeah and uh and you know he's he was a veteran guy and you know we started in jersey with a lot of veteran guys like donnie lever and mel bridgman and tim higgins and

rich press and davey lewis and you know all these guys that were these mentors to us. And I was like, hey, I'm just happy to be in the NHL. So I wore 27 Olympics and they gave me that number. But my greatest nine story is when I got traded to Montreal and Serge Savard called me and said, hey, I just traded you to Montreal. And I didn't know Serge at all and i was you know just excited and everything and he said so you know you're going to come up and you know you're going to meet the eddie the equipment guy you'll get you set up all the formality of when you get traded

and i and i don't even know why i said it i didn't know serge and i just said for a joke and i said is there any chance i could get nine and uh he said to me, Kirk, do you know the history of the Montreal Canadiens? And I said, of course I do. I said, I'm just kidding. But a couple years later, I go to the All-Star game, and now they gave me 11 in Montreal, which is just what they gave me. I had no choice. I was like, fine, you know, I'm going to wear it.

And I played in the All-Star game, and it goes by seniority. And so they said, listen, you're a Montreal Canadian. The game's in Montreal, but listen, Marc Mechier has a seniority. We're going to give him 11, and you're going to wear 9. We figured you'd like that. I said, yeah, that's awesome, sure. So what happens to me now, I go up after the game, and who's waiting for me a true story rocket richard and uh and rocket calls me over and he says uh hey uh kirk yeah you have a minute and i said yeah he says uh you have and i said yeah

he says you wear nine today and i said And he says, don't make it a habit. And I walked over to Steve's shot and I said, uh, I just told him what Rocket told me. And I said, do you think he was kidding? And he said, no, no, no, he was not. So that was, that was, uh, that was my, my nine story with the Rocket. I wanted to ask you about coaching. Do you want to get back in? Yeah.

You know what? I feel blessed and honored to be involved in the NHL. And I've been lucky to play in it and coach in it. And what makes it special is the people involved and the competition at such a pro level and the competitiveness. And, yes, you know what? I enjoyed the coaching. I enjoyed, you know, when I was in the bubble, I got a taste of the head coaching again from the days I was in Carolina. I think it's just being a part of a group and wanting to win and leading that group is, is just, is a lot of fun.

Now I understand that, you know, you've been obviously a head coach. You've been, uh, an associate head coach. You've been an assistant coach. You want to be a head coach.

Like you want that second opportunity at that job. Correct? Yeah. You know what? It's, uh, it's the right time. I had an opportunity to be the head coach in Milwaukee and, uh, Carolina? Yeah, you know what? It's the right time. I had an opportunity to be the head coach

in Milwaukee and Carolina. And, you know, is where I feel I had a great opportunity from Jimmy Rutherford and Ronnie Francis to start there and start in head coaching with Nashville's organization. And, you know, from then, you know, I learned some things and that's where I got my experience. But, you know, since then, I said, I want to learn from some veteran coaches. And, you know, I went to St. Louis and worked with Hitch and saw how he operated. And, you know, we went to the third round and had that great opportunity to see on a daily basis how, I said earlier, how well he's prepared and the work that he puts in to have a team prepared to play every day, every practice and that. And then,

you know, I worked with some more veteran coaches, fortunately. You know, Michel Tarian, when I went back to Montreal, learned from his type of theories and the way he sees the game. And, you know, with Claude Julien just previously. And then went over to the Worlds with AV. And when you look at these, a lot of these veteran coaches, you know, I had firsthand experience of working with them, seeing how they operate, taking a lot of great things from everybody. And then, you know, having that chance to coach in the bubble

and being behind the bench and being the head guy for a series, you know, the confidence was there. And I feel like this is the right time for me to go after it and be a head coach. Okay, here's my last question to you, Kirk. Is there one guy from your career that you battled against that all these years later you're still not friendly with oh good question uh i will say there's there's not a player that i could run into today and i

could say i don't want to see that guy you know know what? There's like Dale Hunter that, man, when I played against him, we all know who he played. And, you know, when I was in more of the Patrick division back in the Jersey and Washington days, and, you know, I think we still have a record for the most penalty minutes in a series, like Washington, New Jersey. It was vicious.

And, you know, I had to go head-to-head with him, and then he goes to Quebec and everything. But I got a lot of respect for him. Like, guys like Scott Stevens back then, and, you know, these guys, I mean, if you're playing with your head down, you're in trouble. They're not giving you a mercy role, you know. But, honestly, there's not a guy that I'm across the street, I don't even want to see him.

I think I played in a time where the respect was there. It was tough. It was good hockey. It was high scoring. But I think because of that respect, I don't think I have that for anybody. Okay, last one for me. I want to get your thoughts on coaching three-on-three.

Because when three-on-three started, we all loved it because it was, well thought uncoachable it was up and down and odd man rushes and coaches would be pulling their hair out on the bench coaches now very much have their hooks in the three on three kirk from a coach's point of view what do you do with three on three yeah good question well you know what you look at three on three a few things that come into play you know what do you do with three-on-three? Yeah, good question. Well, you know what? You look at three-on-three, a few things that come into play. You know what? You want to get your best face-off guy out to win the first face-off.

So you start off with possession because you know that if you do the percentage of goals scored on three-on-three, a high percentage of them are scored on the rush, guys missing the net and line changes. Bad line changes are a big part of three on three which are correctable it's interesting five on five hockey what do you tell your guys go to the net get the rebound drive to the net but you know in three on three hockey you think listen you'd want to move the puck around to get that that shot because you know not too often it's not too obvious. You see it's always from a rebound and all that. So you got one guy shooting, another guy going in that.

If he misses it, guess what? It's a two-on-one the other way. Yep. So you got to be real careful on your shot selection on three-on-three, missing the net, goalie pops it out, easy rebound, way you go. And so there are scenarios right there. And then I think a big part of it is a responsibility with coaches is to say, hey, listen, before a game, our goalie's awesome at shootouts.

Their guy perhaps isn't. Our record on shootouts is strong or poor. Our opponents are strong or poor. So maybe we should sit back a little bit, Our record on shootouts is strong or poor. Our opponents are strong or poor. So maybe we should sit back a little bit, and we're a better team tonight percentage-wise to maybe win the game on our shootouts. We've got three great shooters. We've got a great goalie.

Let's play back. Let's play a little bit more of a zone. Or you're the opposite. You're a type of coach, you look at it and you go, we're really struggling on our shootouts, our confidence, guys aren't scoring. You know what? Let's go three forwards.

Let's go for it. Let's go for the home run. Let's go try to win it. I think all those intangibles, I think, are ways that you kind of approach a three-on-three hockey. Okay, let me ask you this final wrap-up then. It looks to me sometimes like teams are just holding on to the puck, waiting for either a bad switch on the other side or a

bad line change, and that's when they pounce. How accurate is that? Well, exactly what I was saying. You know, if you're aware of it, and again, it's, you know, in the zone, you know, if you get that long change, and if you're a smart hockey player, you're sitting on the bench, you're watching how long the other team's guys are on the ice so that you know if you get out there and they're struggling and you outchange them and now you're fresh, you're in the offensive zone and you know that as soon as it's popped out, they're racing for that change. And you know that as soon as it's popped out, they're racing for that change. And if you can counter quick, I mean, to me, that's a smart hockey player. You're like, so, you know, that's why, you know, you pay attention on the bench. You know, you watch the game.

So you watch who can't get off. And so when you go on the ice, are you going against three fresh guys? Are you going against a D that's exhausted? He's got that long change. He can't get off. So you bite, you know know you sell it a little bit you bring it back in a neutral zone you hope some guy bites on it goes for the change and then you go for it you know so there's a lot of smart hockey players in the hl and i would say there's

a lot of little things that would happen that for three on three hockey that's a great answer okay grandpa we spent enough time with you today. Thanks. Uh, thanks so much, Kirk for stopping by today. We really appreciate it. Yeah. Great time with you guys.

Great job. Yeah. We'll all enjoy the playoffs coming up. And there it is. Our conversation with Kirk Muller, someone too good to be out of the game for much longer. Wonder if one of those vacancies ends up filled, uh,

by Kirk Muller. We thank him for joining us on this week's edition of 31 Thoughts, the podcast. Taking us out today, a three-piece band from Vernon, British Columbia, who now call Vancouver home.

Singer Aidan Andrews and twin brother rhythm section, Carson and Nolan Bassett, making up the band Desormais. We're carving out a unique space in modern alternative music. With their latest single, here's Desorme. We're carving out a unique space in modern alternative music. With their latest single, here's Desorme with The Trend on 31 Thoughts The Podcast. All this noise talking about nameless Oh, oh, oh, yeah

My brain exploding under orange streetlight Talking slowly, you can hear me cry Brain exploding under orange streetlight Crack my voice so you can hear me cry Nothing gonna change the tide, just move the weather No one's gonna die, but no one lasts forever All that's got me tired of ages, don't forget it When they call your name, I won't be the one getting

Nothing gonna change the tide, just move the weather No one's gonna die, but no one lasts forever All that's got me tired of ages, don't forget it When they call your name, I hope you don't forget it Hope you don't regret it Hope you don't regret it Hope you don't end up like me Hope you don't break that snakey

Hope you don't, hope you don't get too set All around the heart and the surface mess Yeah, neck deep in the shallow end Sipping on juice for the trend Living by example's fine But none of these saints are your friends No, neck deep in the shallow end Sipping on juice for the trend

Living by example's fine But maybe just don't use my