40 Minutes In The Old Testament - Live From HWSS 2018 | With Guests Erick Sorenson and Michael Heiser

Episode Date: October 25, 2018

This is a live recording from the 2018 Here We Still Stand Conference. Chad and Daniel are joined by guests Erick Sorenson and Michael Heiser to discuss Numbers 21:4-9. The people are complaining and God brings judgment in the form of deadly serpents. The cure is to have a bronze snake put on a pole. Why is this happening and how does it point to Christ and explain John 3:16? They talk about it in this special episode. Have a listen! Here We Still Stand 30 Minutes In The New Testament Scandalous Stories Book Naked Bible Podcast 1517 Podcast Network

Welcome to 40 Minutes in the Old Testament live from, here we still stand, yeah you can yeah of course of course joined by eric from 30 minutes in new testament you know that you know that show that show and and special guest michael heiser who uh is the logos rep this year so he'll be seeing him later on talking about all the wonderful things that logos does but also a host of the podcast the naked bible um so that's a podcast you can check out yeah yeah yeah you can applaud for that. Right on. So we are in numbers in 40 minutes. And our goal, Chad, when we talked about this, we were talking about what we were going to do for Here We Still Stand, and we were going to do something live. And we always try to merge the old and the new. So we pick a text that

works with both. And what we thought was like, well, we're in numbers. We'll do numbers 21. We'll do the serpent lifted up in the wilderness. And we planned this out a little while back. thought, yeah, we can, I think we can get there. I think we can get there. We didn't really get that close to it. There was more going on in numbers than either of us thought. I mean, we've both read it at least once, so I don't know why that happened. But yeah, we didn't get that close, but we're sticking with it. So for those who will listen to this later, or if you're a listener, we are jumping ahead nine or 10 chapters. Don't worry, we will cover the other ones. So this isn't coming out until like 2021? No, we're not. We'll release it, but we're going to

have to backtrack a little bit. So Chad, what are we looking at today? So we are in, yeah, we're in Numbers 21, and we're going to start about the fourth verse. So that's going to take us through four through nine. I figure we'll get to a couple of these verses at least before 40 minutes is up. And then we'll jump to John three. We'll kind of go back and forth here. So first of all, thank you guys for listening. If you're just listening out there and thank you for showing up today to be our audience. It amazes me every place that I go, I hear from people who listen to 40 minutes in the Old Testament or 30 minutes in the New Testament. It's a tremendous encouragement to us for what we do and to get the kind of feedback that we get from you guys. So thanks for being

part of everything that we're doing here. So kind of get our context here to orient ourselves as what's happening with the life of Israel in Numbers 21. In the last episode, we were kind at the verge of the promised land and Moses was about to send the spies in to check out the land and come back with a report. Well, between then and now, a lot of years have passed, 40 years in fact. And a couple of prime characters in this story have died. Miriam dies a couple chapters previous to where we're at now. And then just a little bit before the location where we're at now Numbers 21, Aaron, Aaron dies as well. He dies at a place called Mount Hor, H-O-R. And there's a, there's a big morning ceremony for, for him. So our, our trio of Moses, Aaron, and Miriam is two

thirds gone. And all we got now is Moses. And Moses has already been told he's not getting to the promised land. So that kind of puts you in the story where you, you know, what's, what's going on there. They're almost, you know, they've been circling back and forth during these 40 years. So they're on their way now actually to the promised land. So they're almost there. But I know this is going to shock all of you, but they still haven't learned their lesson. I mean, unlike all of us, we make a mistake once,

and after that, never again. Never going to happen again. But for some reason, Israel, unlike us, don't seem to learn their lesson because everything that's going to happen today is pretty much like a repeat of what we've seen already from right when they leave Egypt when they're on their way to Mount Sinai. So anyway, let's get into the text itself

because there's a whole lot to talk about. And we also want to jump to John 3 so we have a chance to actually see what Jesus has to say about this story as well. That's probably an important thing to do. So Numbers 21, verse 4. Then they set out from Mount Hor by way of the Red Sea to go around the land of Edom.

And the people became impatient because of the journey. I think I'll just go ahead and read this whole thing since it's so short. And the people spoke against God and Moses. Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there's no food and no water and we loathe this miserable food.

and the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people so that many of the people of Israel died. So the people came to Moses and said, we have sinned because we have spoken against the Lord and you. Intercede with the Lord that he may remove the serpents from us.

And Moses interceded for the people. Then the Lord said to Moses, make a fiery serpent and set it on a standard and it shall come about that everyone who is bitten when he looks at it, he shall live. and Moses made a bronze serpent and he set it on the standard and it came about that if a serpent bit any man,

when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. Hey, before you get into the really cool stuff, I just want you to know that the fact that these dudes say there is no food or water and we load this worth, we'll load some food or worthless food is hilarious. There's no food except for this worthless food. You know, what's interesting, what's interesting to me as you read it

is I was immediately reminded of all three of my kids on any road trip I've ever gone on in my life. Yeah, I was gonna say, this is- Literally, they quote these words verbatim to me. Yeah, this is like your teenager who walks into the kitchen, opens the fridge, and he's like, there is nothing in here to eat. Translation, there's nothing in here that I want to eat.

Yes. Yeah, so this is like Israel in their juvenile stage, which lasts a whole long time. Yeah, that is, you know, there's a lot of hilarious passages in the Bible, but this is certainly one of them. There's no food. And we loathe the food that we do have.

So there's, I like to look at the context because I think sometimes it's significant because you got these little geographical names that are thrown in there. And sometimes I think they kind of orient us thematically as to how we should view the story. So for instance, here we have mentioned in verse four of two places, three places actually.

You got Mount Hor and the Red Sea and then Edom, all the three of which are significant for kind of setting the tone here. First of all, Mount Hor, we know from chapter 20, if you just look up a few verses, beginning in chapter 20, verse 22 and following, Mount Hor, that's where Aaron dies. In fact, I think that even on at least the mountain

that is thought to be the biblical Mount Hore, there's actually like a shrine on top to Aaron that you can go and visit on your next trip to the Holy Land. Michael will have to confirm that. I have no idea if that's true or not. Is that true? It's true just like you said it is.

It's a true guess. It's a true guess, yeah. Wherever this biblical Mount Hore is, the mountain they think it is anyway, there's a shrine to Aaron there. So they're leaving there. The reason I bring it up, they're leaving there with the death

of one of their leaders still in the forefront of their minds. The leader that is connected in his past with the whole debacle of the golden calf that happened at Mount Sinai. So you kind of, in my mind, I'm reading this story and I've got both of these in my own mind as well. Okay, so Mount Hor is connected with death

and Aaron died there. He's connected with the golden calf. And now, so what's about to happen? Well, what's about to happen is the same thing once more that happened with the golden calf, except in this case, it's not the making of an idol, but it's the breaking of the first commandment. There's a lack of faith.

There's an unbelief that drives this complaint of the Israelites. And also it says they set out by way of the Red Sea. Well, of course, when you think Red Sea, you think all the way back to Exodus and everything that happened there. And you'll see that there's a connection here between the redemption and the gift of the Lord

and this strange complaint that seems to follow it. And we see this repeatedly in the case of Israel. God will do something good for them. God will redeem them. God will, whatever it is, whatever good saving, redeeming action he does for them, and that's followed up almost immediately by their complaints.

so this is this is the life of Israel as they progress through as they progress through the wilderness I love the Hebrew here uh it says the people my translation anyway it says they became impatient because of the journey is that what yours has yep yep yeah yeah so in the Hebrew there it's that literally be something like this the soul of the people was was shortened and the reason I love that is because there's there's sometimes this this uh surprising at surprising to me, overlap between the idioms in various languages, because we actually use a phrase that's similar to that. What do we say if someone is impatient and they're getting upset with us? We'll say, hey, don't be short with me, right? It's kind of the same idea. So we don't

say, hey, don't be short-souled with me, but it's the same, you know, it's the same idea. So Hebrew, in the Hebrew there, it's the soul of the people, it's like it was shrinking, it was feeling confined. And as a result of that, they began to complain, to do the Israelite thing. So same with our expression to be short. What happened? So they're being short, they're upset. So how do they respond? It says the people spoke against God and Moses. Now this is interesting because we have a lot of occasions where they speak against Moses or they'll speak against Moses and Aaron, but here they speak against God and Moses, which I think partly explains why God reacts the way that he does. He reacts almost immediately by the sending of the

serpents. But here's what they said, and this ought to spur all sorts of memories because we've heard this kind of language a lot of times in Exodus as well as in earlier in Numbers. why have you brought us out of the wilderness, out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? Because there's no food and no water and we loathe this miserable food. So what's the implication of that? The implication is that God brought them out in order to put them to death. Yeah, so God's redeeming action is not prompted by love, but there's sort of a, there's a reason, an ulterior emotive behind this and it's all bad. So you've redeemed us in order to kill us. You brought us out of slavery to subject us to this suffering and eventual death in the wilderness. And it

reminds me that, actually I got this from Steve Paulson. I've got a quote here somewhere. He was talking about, he was talking about Luther. And Luther would often translate, there's a verse, this verse from Psalm 116. Usually we translate it something like, I believed, therefore I said, I am greatly afflicted or something like that. But Luther would translate this verse from Psalm 116 this way. I believed, therefore I was greatly afflicted. And the reason I like that is because, first of all, it's true. I mean, being redeemed by God in Christ and being brought into the faith doesn't put you on a path where everything is just perfect, right?

Often it's quite the opposite because Jesus says, if you wanna follow me, then you take up your cross, right? And so oftentimes when we're redeemed, when we're brought into the faith, our lives actually become more difficult. I mean, I think that's a great evangelism slogan. You want life to be harder?

Join our church. But that is true to form, isn't it, right? I mean, very often our lives actually become more difficult. There's also actually, there's more peace and there's, of course, there's more grace and forgiveness and all these wonderful gifts of God, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden that everything is just, you know, unicorns and roses

and everything is just, everything is fine because we're bearing our crosses. It's hard. And often we're stuck in the wilderness where there's serpents and a lack of the things that we need. So... Or at least the things that we want. Or at least the things, yeah,

at least the things that we want. So, I mean, in some way, I bring all that up because I think in some ways there's sort of an element of truth to what the Israelites are saying. Not that God brought them out to kill them, but yes, that God's redemption often means that there's going to be,

there's often going to be suffering. Except that God's purpose is not to redeem us, to kill us. God's purpose is to redeem us, to redeem us, right? It is for freedom that we have been freed, period, right? It's not so that we could do something else. There's not like some ulterior motive from God in redeeming us. It is for freedom that we have been freed.

Now, we always wanna tack something onto that, but that's it. He wants us to be free. He wants us to be free children, children of God. But the Israelites kind of twist this around, and so they impute to God this murderous motive, and not only to God, but also to Moses. So that's going on, and plus, I mean, the menu sucks, right?

We loathe this miserable, this miserable food. I've been doing all the talking. You guys can jump in any time. Do you have thoughts, Michael? I'm sitting here trying not to geek out. Because for those of you who know me or have heard my podcast, one of my mottos on the podcast is, if it's weird, it's important.

And there's a lot of really, there's a lot of foreshadowing here. And there's a lot of going back to the past, you know, full circle here. I'll take the latter first. You have this reference, why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? Now, I don't know if you, where you guys stopped in your journey through the book of Numbers,

but that comes up in Numbers 11. And number, you say, well, why is that important? When they complained, they used the same words to complain, wishing they were back in Egypt. Well, it's because of what happens right after Numbers 11. That's when they're about to go into the land, Numbers 12 and 13, as you know, your audience is going to find out when you go through this, sets the tone for much of the rest of the Old Testament. Because it is at the end, really, in the New Testament, like the book of Hebrews draws on this tradition specifically. And that is when they're about to go into the land, they send the spies in, and they come back with the report. Basically, they're going to chicken out because the anakim

are in the land. Yeah, the land is everything that God said it was, but the anakim are in the land. Okay. They're one of, that's the name of one of the giant clans. And we're like grasshoppers to those guys. We're basically going to get our rear ends kicked. So, you know, so let's turn around and go back home to Egypt. And they begin to complain. You know, why is that significance here? Because in this scene in Numbers 21, when they're done with this, the whole serpent issue, they're gonna, might as well just get into it. Serpent in this passage is nakash, okay? It's just a normal word for serpent.

There are other words for serpent in Hebrew and specifically in Canaanite. This is why I'm trying not to geek out here. In Canaanite, one of the words for serpent is batan, which is the Hebrew equivalent is bashan, which is where they're gonna go next. It's the place of the serpent. There were two cities in Bashan, Ashtaroth and Eddra,

that we find in Deuteronomy 2 and 3 when this episode gets rehearsed again. Those two places were known to the Canaanites as the gateways to the netherworld, the gates of hell, as it were, the Old Testament equivalent of the gates of hell. Right after this, they go and camp in Ovoth. It's verse 10, Numbers 21.

and by Iyeh Avarim. Ovot is a term, it's a plural term in Hebrew. It means spirits, like the spirits of the dead. And Iyeh Avarim is the valley of those who have crossed over. Okay, Avarim, Ovarim in Hebrew is used in Ezekiel for the same place. It's a spooky place.

It's associated with death and the underworld. That's where they're gonna go next. And those two places are in the region of Bethan, which in Canaanite means serpent, the place of the serpent. I mean, you get the imagery here. This is not where you wanna go, okay? And when they get there,

who do they specifically encounter? Sion and Og, the last of the Rephaim, the kings of the Amorites. According to Amos 2, 9, and 10, the Amorites were really tall. Okay, so it's another reference to giant clans. God is taking them back, and he's forcing them to confront the very same problem that stalled them in the first place. Back in Numbers 11, Numbers 12, Numbers 13.

So now here we are 40 years later, and they're in the same situation. You get the same complaint, you know, let's go back to Egypt. You know, we hate this, we hate that, we hate the other thing. And God's like, boy, you have a short memory. You know, this is why you just had to wander in the 40 years. This is why you got that food that you hate, okay? Because you should have been in the promised land, but you weren't.

You were taken to this obstacle specifically and you failed. You go back to Numbers 12, Numbers 13, that is the failure that sets off the 40 years of wandering. So now here we are again, and God's gonna take them to the same obstacle. In Deuteronomy 2 and 3, we actually read, you know, God tells Moses, now look, you're gonna go down in the south here, Edom.

You know, you're gonna start in the south and then you're gonna, God tells them, you move north. Don't worry about the Edomites. Don't worry about the Ammonites because the descendants of Esau have already taken care of the problem, the giant clans, the Amim, the Zuzim, the Zamzumim, the Anakim, the Rephaim that are in these places.

but there's still a few left. And that's where I am telling you, commanding you to go. And that's where they wind up. So they got to go to this spooky place, the place of the serpent where the gates of hell are. And there are these giant, these really tall dudes there. It's the same problem.

And when they get here, they're right on the cusp of turning and going north. They don't get it. It's 40 years later and they still don't get it. Like, duh. You know, so when the writer here is giving us this line about Egypt,

again, for someone who had the Torah, you know, familiar with the Torah, they're gonna read this line. Where have I seen that line before? Oh, it was back in Numbers 11, just a few chapters ago, because I'm in Numbers now. And what's going on in the scene?

They're failing. That's what's going on in the scene. They refuse to believe. Two spies, Joshua and Caleb, are like, this is light work. Don't you remember the Red Sea? Like we were all there. Don't you remember that?

And they just turn their backs on it and then that launches them into the 40 years of wandering where the first generation's gonna die out except for the ones who believed, believed they could do it and here they are right back here again. I mean, I think there's some really good analogies there. you know, obviously to, you know, I'm probably the exception. I don't make a mistake and then

never make it again. You know, it's, this is just, it's a historical, theological, really, you know, pedagogical situation that I think is really applicable in terms of preaching, you know, to put yourselves back in their situation. And again, God knows exactly what he's doing. You are not going to go into the land. You are not going to graduate until you tackle this problem, until you get over this hurdle. You know, who knows what would have happened if they failed again. They must deal with this or they are never going to advance spiritually. So again, it's just this wonderful, it's a wonderful spiritual analogy, but it arises from the history of the people and where they have been before so i'll cut myself off here i just one

thing that's interesting about it cool stuff yeah one thing that's interesting is that at this point you have them you have these people bringing up egypt a large percentage of the of the people who are adults they're never we're never in egypt in the first place i mean like this is a long time I mean, it doesn't seem like it's a long time. It's all in the same book. But, I mean, a big percentage of these people, people who are 40-plus years old, so those are adults.

I mean, you're pretty grown up at 40. I'm going to be 40. That's when I assume I grow up. That's not true. You just feel old. You just feel old. Yeah. But that means that these people,

a big percentage of the adults in this community, they don't even know what they're asking for when they want to go back to Egypt because they weren't ever there in the first place. They've never eaten anything but manna. So like maybe they were there for the quail episode and that was terrible. It's coming out of their nostrils, man.

I don't even know. It makes me wonder what they've been teaching their kids. Right. I mean, I don't know. They're telling them all these stories like you don't even know. I know you never had it, but onions, it's amazing. It's super, it's super weak.

The garlic was awesome. There's a breath issue, but I'm just telling you. Because you know the kids are going to like, why do we just wander around? Like we get up every day and we just start walking. Why are we doing this? There's literally adults that are 40 years old that have never done anything but that.

Right, and when they're told, you're going to get the stories about Egypt, and they're probably going to mention the food because they don't like this. They're probably not going to mention how they were killing all the firstborn or doubling your brick load and all this stuff. You forget those things.

You wonder if part of the explanation is, well, we're being punished by God because we failed. I mean, you have to wonder that because even if a few of them know that, again, when they come full circle here and then the complaints start to happen, you would hope that somebody has taught their kids and the kids would go, no, wait a minute.

This is why we got into this in the first place. You know, my grandpa told me that You know, it wasn't just about what's on the menu. You know, like there's a reason why we're doing this and why it seems so senseless. So yeah, I mean, what in the world is going on, you know, with what they're communicating to the next generation?

Because you know, they've got to have questions. Well, and I think when you're talking about the failure, I think that the failure is actually, you know, you could moralize this a little bit and say like, there's an obstacle that God wants you to overcome. And if you overcome it, he'll bless you, which of course is not how this works.

But the thing that they're unwilling to confront is death. And redemption does involve death. The Christian life is one of dying and rising, not just once, but daily. It is downward. It is death to self, alive to God in Christ. And over and over and over again, what you see with the children of Israel

is they do not want to die. They don't wanna literally die, but they don't wanna die to self either. And so what you have happened over and over and over again, and the one thing that will absolutely stall you out spiritually, if there's anything, is your unwillingness to die to you. Your unwillingness to say, all right, this has to die. Me, what I want, my sufficiency, the things I think I deserve,

that all has to die. And they do not want to do that. And this is why over and over again, they're having to get thumped on and beat to death because you can't be resurrected until you embrace the cactus of death. Like you have to hug that thing and make it your own. You know, and who for them, if you asked an Israelite

in this scene, who has the solution to death? Who is in charge of that? Who can overcome death? Who can deliver us from death? You know, maybe they'd have the academic answer like, oh, it's Yahweh of Israel, it's our God, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, this I think there's a little bit of shadowing

with the serpent stuff because, okay, they're gonna be bitten by these serpents. God's gonna say, okay, you know, make a bronze or copper, however your translation has it. Make this serpent, put it on a pole so when people look at it, they're gonna be healed. And there's lots going on there with background and with ancient Near Eastern stuff.

Maybe we can get into, but what I think is really clever here and really interesting is they're going to a place, they're gonna wind up in a place that is associated with a serpent and with death. And what this is supposed to teach them is that God can heal. In other words, who is Lord over death?

Who is the one that provides deliverance? who is stronger than death, okay? That's what they're supposed to get out of this. You know, now, again, we know the rest of the story. Fortunately, they go up there and they do the job. You know, they believe. They're not, you know, consigned to another 40 years of wandering. But again, it's just really interesting, you know, that you have this incident, right?

Again, sandwiched in between. Well, it follows from the failure. But right before they go into these places that are associated with the dead, it's the last thing in the world you want to think about. And again, I would like to say they got the lesson. But, you know, you're talking about dying to yourself and your points well made. Sometimes we're a little too attached just to life, you know, like literally. You know, we forget that this world isn't our home. And again, I'm not gonna try to front load

a whole theology of the afterlife into the passage, even though I take a very optimistic view that the Old Testament believer did believe that he would be with the Lord when he died. A lot of scholars will dispute that in Old Testament, as I'm sure you well know. I'm on the optimistic side of that. I don't think that's a very coherent idea.

So I will at least front load that much into it. they should know who has victory, who can provide victory over death, both in this life and the next. Just to that point, I just want to say, I think what this passage and so much of the story of Israel shows us is that the people of God are always looking for comfort where they're at and looking for comfort here in this life and looking for this to be the place that really they don't have to face the trouble. And if there's anything that the whole story of Israel, and frankly, the story of the church shows us, God seems to like guiding his people in dangerous places.

And that's true to some degree for every one of the members of his church. Like he's going to do that. He's not going to just allow everything to be comfy and easy all the time. He calls us into the world, not to be out of the world, in but not of. So we can't escape it.

We can't go start our own little thing somewhere and escape the mess of the world. He calls us down into it, just as he called his son down into it to save it. And with that, I actually have to do this because we have 10 minutes left and I have to go in like hard with Jesus right now because I'm gonna be that guy.

There's nothing wrong with that guy. I'm going in, I'm going in. Okay, this has all been wonderful. Ultimately, what this text is about, of course, is that a world, snake bitten, who is dying, there is one who takes on the venom, the curse, um is lifted up on a pole and you must look at that and live this is this is what happens here right so because we got to move we got to move to the conclusion here or else we're going to leave

people with no with no jesus and i just i just can't uh it's not it's not something i do uh so what you end up with here is is just that so that people are dying they're getting bit and everything and and god says all right look raise up a bronze serpent which is a weird thing right because if you're getting bit by snakes, it's like, here's what you do. You make a snake and you look at that. Like that's, that doesn't make any sense. It seems like you would make, I don't know, something to hunt snakes, you know, like, like put an Eagle up there or something. But it's not, it's a, it's a snake and it's on a, it's on a pole on a standard and they raise up and whoever, if you get bit, you look at that and you're healed and lit and you live. So Chad, you want to take

us to what Jesus says all of this is ultimately pointing to? As we look at people who are afraid to confront death, afraid to die, Jesus has some words about being the one who will ultimately die for the salvation of his people. Yeah, there's a couple of things that I think are really pointing out at this point. Let me say, first of all, this is a great text to look at for this conference because this is all about theology of the cross, right? Where God works in ways that are opposite to what we would expect. So, I mean, the last thing that I would have think God would have done

would say to put a snake on the pole, right? That's completely contrary to, so put up there a symbol of death. The very thing that's biting us and killing us, well, put an image of that on the cross, on the pole. I think another thing that I want to throw out here before I forget, I think it's significant actually.

I could just be making this up, but I'm beginning to be convinced this is true, that the snake is made out of bronze. If you were listening through Exodus, when we were talking about the construction of the tabernacle, there's gradations of importance with various metals. So gold was in the Holy of Holies.

And then outward from there, you have silver. And then out from there, you have bronze. But what's made out of bronze? The altar, it's called the bronze altar. It's the place of atonement, the place where God is reconciled to his people, where there is healing and forgiveness through that sacrifice of lambs and oxen

and everything else, that's made out of bronze. And I can't help but wonder if that's the reason the snake is made out of that particular metal is because it's connected in the Israelite mind with a place of atonement, with a place of healing and life for them at the altar. So in some ways, this serpent, this bronze serpent is connected to the altar,

which when you connect it with John 3, is connected to the Lamb of God who on the altar of the cross takes away the sins of the world. Yeah, so if you jump to John 3, you see how Jesus uses this passage. I don't open the New Testament very often, but I did look. But when I do, I do like to look at where Jesus quotes the scriptures. So if you're in John 3, he's having a conversation, of course, at night with Nicodemus. They're talking about this and

that having theological conversation and we get to where we're at here verse 13 no one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven even the son of man and as moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believes in him may have eternal eternal life this was a favorite passage of martin luther because he saw in this particular story, just how, that Jesus was, as it were, I've got a quote from him somewhere, that Jesus was, as it were, giving us, this is kind of like an Emmaus Road experience, because Jesus is using this story, this outlandish, crazy story, in order to teach us how to read the Old Testament. Here's the quote. When Jesus compares himself to the bronze serpent in John 3, the Lord shows us

the proper method of interpreting Moses and all the prophets. So I hope we're all listening here. He teaches us that Moses points to Christ in all his stories and illustrations. His purpose is to show that Christ is the point at the center of the circle with all eyes inside the circle focused on him. And I have to agree that, I mean, there's no way that I would have been reading through Numbers 21 and saw this bronze serpent and I thought, you know what, I'm going to compare the snake to Jesus.

That's not a connection that we would make because in our mind, serpents and snakes are connected with Satan, of course. I mean, we get that already in Genesis chapter three. It's the perfect illustration though, because what happens to Christ on the cross? Yeah, he becomes sin. I mean, he becomes the curse. I mean, this is, what's crazy is everyone here

knows John 3, 16. What this is about, John 3, 16 is all it's saying is that Jesus is the fulfillment of number 21 because John 3, 16 is the next verse. And so it is, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the son of man must be lifted up. whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world.

In other words, for God so loved the world that he fulfilled Numbers 21 on your behalf. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah. By the way. John 3.16 is like a PS to Numbers 21. Yeah.

I mean, this is like saying, oh yeah, Numbers 21 is fulfilled in Christ. Yep. And here's the summary of that. Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, so some scholars will, you know, some Bible translations have this continuing on as Jesus speaking to Nicodemus.

some interpreters, some translators will actually stop the quotation marks after verse 15 and suggest that John is commenting on this bronze serpent. So it's John's actually commentary. So either way, it's a, you know, it's a great point, but the fact is, is that yes, the whole thing that follows after is just merely a commentary on that story. Yeah. Yeah. When you think about everything that the serpents are connected with in the scriptures, especially Genesis three and how he's kind of the icon of evil and the beginning of all the travesties that take place in the world.

And then you link that with Christ. You see really what the atonement was about. It's Christ taking all of the evil and filling this cup and then drinking it down so that he becomes that on the cross for us. So all evil, all death, all sin, everything he takes into himself so that he who is hanged on the tree

is the accursed one, right? It's like the Old Testament says, or he became, he who knew no sin became sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Or to say it kind of in Old Testament terms, he who was the lamb of God became the serpent in order that he might make us into the lambs of our heavenly father. He became the opposite of what he is in order that we might become the opposite of what we are. He takes on everything that is bad about us, all of our death and our suffering and all the evil and then he transfers to us life and righteousness so that we receive everything from him that he wishes to give us wishes to give us by grace and in in all the

the crazy ways the scriptures work we see that this story from numbers 21 illustrates that perfectly yeah yeah and so what what a simple what a simple thing i mean if somebody's like what must i do to be saved right well the answer is nothing it's all done but even when you have john say you know sees jesus coming and says behold the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world you have this look upon like all it is is how like what how am i going to how am i going to be reckoned with god it's like look there it is it's already it's done right there before your eyes look look upon christ behold that's all it is that's that's it that's that's the whole thing and that's gonna have to be 40 minutes guys because we have that's it that's 40 minutes live thank you to michael heiser

for being a guest we could we could have went on and on real now a couple of things a couple of things one the legendary john warren montgomery will be doing a podcast here in about 15 minutes so you want to miss that he's gonna be taking questions and stuff i believe i hope i didn't false advertise that he'll forgive me he believes in grace if i did uh uh the other thing is this book right here. This is a book that me and Eric wrote. It's called Scandalous Stories. It's a sort of commentary on parables. It is in the bookstore. It just came out this weekend. And immediately following this, me and Eric will be back there at the book table if you, you know, for some reason want us to put our name in it or something. That's it. But make sure you get back here for

Christianity on Trial. Thank you guys so much for coming out. We'll see you next time.