5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - 2. Fighting Age Limits & Heart of a Warrior

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Ade, Emily, and Liam are back for another episode of The Punch Perfect Podcast, on their relentless mission to build the ultimate boxing machine: the Frankenstein GOAT! To start things off, the trio checks in on the fallout from last week's decisions. With their personal fighting nicknames (The Black Prince, The Hatman, and Miss Eubank) fully established, they recap their first official consensus: crown-funding their monster fighter with the legendary power of George Foreman. The action officially begins when they step into 'The Clinch' to tackle a highly controversial topic delivered straight from producer Jay's envelope: "Governing bodies should refuse licences to fighters over the age of 40!" With a strict three-minute round on the clock, the panel debates the safety, legacy, and commercial appeal of over-40 legends, reflecting on iconic veteran runs from the likes of Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Mike Tyson, Bernard Hopkins, and Shannon Briggs. Will the team reach a unanimous decision, or are we headed for a split decision on whether age is just a number in the ring? Then comes 'The Blueprint' to piece together the next crucial element of their Frankenstein GOAT. This week's attribute up for debate is the mental and spiritual core of any true champion: Heart, Resilience, and Warrior Spirit. But what does having a "warrior spirit" actually mean? Then, it’s time to dive headfirst into the dark side of the sport, debating whether the consequences for drug cheats in boxing are simply not harsh enough, or whether influencer boxing is ultimately good or bad for the game. It's honest, unfiltered, and deeply passionate boxing talk. Subscribe to The Punch Perfect Podcast on BBC Sounds, leave your thoughts in the comments, and help us build the ultimate fighter!

On this episode of the Punch Perfect podcast. Oh, that's debatable. We can get into that another day. No, I'm going to get it now. If I wasn't sat here, would you say it? Yes, I would have said, I would have. I think you can say, no, not for me. I think absolutely not.

It's a piss take. What's going on, everyone? Welcome back to the Punch Perfect podcast. So we're on a mission to build the perfect fighter. Mr. Numero Uno, by the way. And we're going to set boxing right whilst doing it. I'm Adiola Depot. I'm Liam Goff. I'm Emily Eubank.

Swear warning. You can give us a little bit of leeway on this. There may be swearing. We are very passionate on here, and we are only human at the end of the day. Okay, boys, let's get into The Clinch. Every episode, we do this thing called The Clinch. You guys did it last week. It was fun. So basically, it's an honest take. And we don't obviously shy away from honest takes reviews about a big subject in boxing. We get three minutes to discuss said subject. Our producer, Jay, who likes to be on camera, for some reason, he's like, you know, when Sousy and I, said a certain person, but we can't re-say that person,

who likes to be in the videos. Yeah. He likes to be in the videos, and he's going to give an envelope to you, Emily, and we're going to discuss this, and we have three minutes to discuss it. Jay, who likes to be in front of the camera, feel free to come in.

Come on, Jay. Producer Jay. Okay, look at him now, pretend he doesn't want to be in the shot. No, gives it to me. Okay, the clinch. All right, here we go. Episode 2's clinched subject is

governing bodies should refuse licenses to fighters over the age of 40. Oh. Okay. Can we put three minutes on the bell, please? We have three minutes on the go. Well, I am going to start with this. Absolutely, they should be given licenses to fires over 40. Should?

Should. Yes. As a blanket. No exceptions to that rule. Yes. No exception. Well, yes, no exceptions to that rule. No, no exceptions.

You are 40, right? You can still go. No matter what division you're at, you're 40, you can still go even better if it's 240-year-olds fighting one letter. That's even more fun. See, see, I think you're saying that because there are a, handful of fighters over the age of 40 that have done stuff. The majority of people will retire at 30.

That's the age. The average age of retirement is 30. I think you're saying that because of George Foreman and Bernard Hopkins and maybe Peturbiev. Who else? Zelle A Zang? Deontale Wilder. Should he have a license?

Yeah. He won his last fight, didn't he? Yeah, against another 40-year-old. Against another 40-year-old. I sit in the zone of 40 if you haven't stopped. So if you're in training There are 40-year-olds that should be fighting And there are 40-year-olds that shouldn't

Okay, but what if we take a guy who comes back at 40 And there are a guy who comes back at 40? We just match them together. But who wants to see that? There are plenty of people who want to see it. Yeah, I know we're tuning into Carcrest TV It doesn't make it right though. But who doesn't look Carcash TV?

It doesn't make it right. No, we do, but it's the most dangerous sport in the world So it shouldn't be Carcash. It should be looked after and educated. Now, I feel like anyone over the age of, I don't know, 35, 36 should have more strident checks, more stringent checks.

It shouldn't be the same as someone at's 20. It shouldn't be because everything, look, as an athlete, you're kind of done really. I mean, your peak is, I don't know, 32, 33, and you are still very good, but you're on the way down.

40 means you really are kind of at the end. It's like you fighting a day. Two 40-year-olds. Oh, thank you. He's closer to 50. I'm actually closer to 20 than I am 50. Thank you very much. This is true, but I look younger.

So that's not the greatest, you know what I mean, example of things. Barter time is undefeated. Don't listen to what she's trying to start to fight with us and we're good friends. Oh, yeah, she loves. The Black Knight versus the Hatman. There you go. Only one winner, of course. No, I think 40's dangerous.

It can be. Yeah, it can be, you're right. And there are exceptions. Chazora was in there at 40. Yes, he looked from round one. But he's going 12 rounds. And he's 40. Yes.

But there are people that are 40 that. That shouldn't be. Would you give very quickly, 10 seconds, would you give Chazora a license to continue fighting? Do we want to see the rematch of Deonté? No, would you give, if you're the doctor, he comes in, would you give him the license? I would be doing more checks and then based on that. Oh, round time. Okay, so what's the, what's the verdict?

I would just say to hell would have a license going, knock yourself out? Or get knocked out. You shouldn't. You should not be the doctor. You should not be the doctor. I'd be a phenomenally popular doctor, wouldn't I? In America, yeah. Everyone would go to you.

I'd fit it right in. Let's go to Liam who will give us. I think. It's a split decision. I'd be number one doctor in Alabama. I would say. You can't rule everyone in terms. No.

It's like when old people are driving. You know when you're driving and you see like an old person driving. You're like, you shouldn't be able to drive. But then there are some 60 year old, 70 year olds that drive. Fine. Some shouldn't have a license. Yeah, I think you should have. I think you should have to redo your test over 60.

This is what I say. I always say that. And then see if they're menace. And I'm like, mom, you shouldn't have a license. I agreed. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's why I'd be such a popular doctor in the States, in places like Alabama.

There you go. Knock yourself out. Right. So you're saying 100% yes. Yes. I'm saying more stringent testing. I agree with you. Okay.

So we're split. We're split. Yeah, but split decision on our side means we win and unfortunately you lose. I take the L. As you always seem to do. All right, guys, this is it. This is the blueprint. So as you guys know, each week we're going to put together what we consider the numero one of

fighters. We're going to call it the Frankenstein of fighters. So someone who would, without doubt, sit on top the Mount Rushmore. Not easy to do. No, not easy to do. And each week, we're going to be given a different set of attributes, whether it be power, speed, heart, and we all have to name tree fighters. And all have to agree. And we've got to back it up. We don't agree with much. And you've got to back it up. We need evidence. Can't just give a name and move on. We've got to battle it out. And you're about to say, you better be listening to your own words. You have me last week, but I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready.

Okay. All right. In this episode, the attribute that is now on the table is heart, resilience, that warrior code. This is, I've quite, it's not easy, is it? It's not easy. Because I guess the question is, what is that? What is heart?

What is resilience? What is the warrior code? I must feel like your dad used to say the warrior code bit a lot. But I was like, what is that? What is the warrior code? What is it? I think the warrior code is just, you know, heart resiliency. If you get knocked down, you get back up, you need a referee in a corner to save you.

view from yourself because there are fighters who just won't quit. And they'll try their best, even if they're a mile behind, to stay in the fight. What I like about this one is this, I don't know anyone's names here, but this won't be a top top fighter, I don't think. Because the top fighters win all the time, don't they? I mean, some have shown heart, like Fury comes to mind, right? Some fighters have shown heart. But most times it's someone that does kind of get knocked down and get up again, as you say. Not easy. Which means they're not the best, because they're getting knocked down. But it's all part of the game.

It's all part of the game. It's all part of the game. Without those fighters, it is all part of the game. And without those fighters, we wouldn't have the memories to talk about. I mean, you mentioned Tyson Fury. We all talk about his Undertaker moment against Wilder.

I do. There we go. He's not one of my fighters, just so you know. He's in mine. Oh. Oh, okay, there you go first. He's in mine.

He's in mine. Well, honorable mention from you, you've said. Honorable mention. And you've mentioned him already, whether he was the name or not. You've got to give him that credit for those. I don't know how he got up, but he got up. And if you're talking a little bit more in depth of what it means,

the battle's outside the ring. Does that come into the resilience? Does that come into the heart? So we all know he's got his demons outside or had. And he's fighting two fights every time he steps in the ring. Steady. I've just started to show. So that's why he's in there for me.

So judging by what you've said before we started saying the names, and we talked about heart and the attributes and you said, well, that means they're not good. So I'm assuming you think Tyson Fury isn't very good. Ooh. That's debatable. We can get into that another day. Oh, I'd like to get into it right now, please.

I'd like to get into that right now, please. Thank you. I mean, you can't argue with what he's done and his record and who he is. But do you think he's good? Do you think he's good? Exactly. I don't personally like to watch him. Okay.

But I can appreciate that he has a level of skill that not many can beat. And a level of will. He definitely has a level of will. He's got a will that's crazy. Even when he gets knocked down, he's been, you know, by the way, he's been knocked down about seven or eight times in his career. People forget that. But he doesn't get labelled chinny, which is strange.

When other fighters have been knocked down around the same amount of times and Elk, like Cheney. But he's want to continue and keep on fighting is, I mean, you've got to admire it. As you say, that fight against Deonti Wilder, I mean, in their free fights, he would have been knocked down, what, five times? About five times. And he's got up all five times. to what people were saying was the hardest puncher ever.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but the fact is he's got up all the time. That's resilience. That is resilience. Okay, so I think you have that. We have him as an honourable mentioner, certainly I do. Well, my pick is someone who we definitely, I don't think, appreciate this fighter's heart,

and that is a man by the name of Amir Khan. Always had heart, always in the entertaining fights. Round 10 against Marcus Medana. Why are you laughing? Round 10 against Marcus Medina. You know what? You're all boxing. knowledge is superior to mine.

So I'll let you talk this one through. Thank you. Convinced me. Okay. First loss against Bradus Prescott. The referee literally had to wheel him to the corner because he kept on trying to get up. Danny Garcia up and down, up and down. Nope, he was not quitting.

Round 10 against Marcus Medana, where in the UK they probably would have stopped that fight. No, Amir Khan keeps going. Not even a big welterweight decides to fight Canello, who was 26 years old in his prime. and he still carries on. Amir Khan, he was chinny but he fought like someone who taught he had a good chin. Yeah.

For me, him, it's almost stupidity. It's not resilience. It's not hard. It's stupidity. Just stay down. Take the L. How many fighters could have stayed down

but they didn't and they ended up taking the W as a result? Not many. Not many. Not many. No, not Ameri Khan. Yeah, in all those instances that you sort of gave examples of,

he didn't win any of those fights. You wanted to make anna fight. Yeah, that all, very good. He did. He did. I think I'm a round up now. Round up because of that little... You've given an okay case.

Yeah, yeah. We'll come back to it. You know, I always struggle, and this is probably wrong on me, but I always struggle to give it to fighters of this era. Because I think of fighters in the 50s and 60s that fought 20 rounds and 15 rounds and small gloves and just crazy wars,

where referees are not. stopping. So there's a fighter in the 60s and 70s. It was a heavyweight called George Chavalo. He's a Canadian heavyweight. And it's a bit of a hipster choice. So I admit I've probably gone a bit left field. But he had 94 fights, never ever got knocked down ever. And he was in there with Ali Fraser, Foreman, all the so-called greats of that time. And no one could stop him. No one could knock him down. And yes, he lost a few. But when you're going, as I said, 15 rounds. 15 rounds, by the way.

It's just not, I mean, there's a reason they stopped going 15 because of how dangerous it was. And he continually did that. And yes, he lost some, but to not be knocked down ever, they got stopped three times. That was on his feet with the ref was like, okay, enough. Never went down. Never went down in sparring.

Never went down in a fight. And I think that shows a level of maybe madness, chin, resilience. Maybe you're a bit, as you said, about Amir, maybe you're not wired correctly. when really intruder you should give up. But those small gloves and 15 rounds have never been knocked down,

I mean, that's some heart, that's some resilience. And as Emily's saying, sometimes you should stay down and just that. George Chavallo is 88 years old. He's still with us. He is still with us. Very good shot. He's still with us to this day.

Foreman, Fraser. He's only stopped by Fraser because his eye was swollen shut. Yeah, that was it. That was it. Never touched down. George Chavallo is a great shot. Okay, I would give him an honour of mention. That's not on my list,

but I will say that's a great shot. That's a great shot. Again, you're talking the big boys. And with the big boys, you do go down because everyone just hits so hard. So for him to never go down when you've got guys that are 260, 250 pounds, levering you, like George Foreman hit him.

And he's not going down against George. They had six ounce clothes back then, six or eight ounce gloves back then. It's basically bare knuckle. Yeah. You might want to have saved him for, when we talk about chins one day. Yeah, maybe, maybe.

Because it's not really hard and resilience. Producer, is there a way we can use him again? Is that it? Once the name's gone, it's gone. It's gone. I'll take George Chivalo back Oh, he retracts that Em is your second one

I'm going to do a shameful self-nom I'm going with Chris Ebbac senior You know what you You know what I love it I'm I love it It's a bit embarrassing

No it's not But I think I could actually Just pass this to you guys To debate it I can put the name forward I don't think either of you can disagree with me You know what

On the way here, I was driving here, thinking I wanted to say it, but I was thinking it's a bit too obvious to say. If I wasn't sat here, would you say it? Yes, I would have said. I would have said, I would have said it. Oh, absolutely not. It's a bit much. The reason I would have said it is more, it's more in the defeats.

Because the one, when he went up and waited, a cruiserweight. Carl Thompson. Two weights up. And he's getting hit with everything. And he's fighting back in the eyes completely. Yeah, everything's done. And you can see the energy's been sapped out of him. the ring, you can see the size difference.

Colton's just too big. And he's still going. Took him 12 rounds. And then even the early fight, 1990 of Nigel Ben. And Nigel Ben, fresh, hitting literally with everything. I mean, these guys are swinging for the fences and Nigel's catching him clean and he's eating those punches. He showed a level of toughness, even against

Steve Collins, Joe Kowalsagi, when Joe Kowzegu had him down early. And that's the reasons that you know, this kid's too young. Yeah, he had no reason to continue. You're too young, and too fresh and I'm going to still find something. I think people gave him respect in the defeats because they saw a different side of him than in the wins.

The wins were like, okay, it's Chris Eubank, he's going to win. But those tough fights were yet to kind of find something when he easily could have said, you know what, end of my career, I've done what I needed to do. I'm a two at world champion. Everyone knows who I am. For him to find something when he didn't need to, it's a great shot.

It's a great shot. It's a great show. And I would say, as you say, with Chris Eubank, senior. Is it weird someone talking about your dad? It's weird. It's weird me talking about it. I don't want to be here right now.

But it's good stuff. It's good stuff. It's good stuff. He was supposed to win a lot of the fights that he did win. By the end of his career, I think people knew, you know, okay, he's getting he's getting up there in age. And no one would have begrudged him to sit out a count against Joe Calzaggy. No one would have begrudged him against Steve Collins. No, but he always got up and he always tried to win. And against Steve Collins in the first fight.

So you're absolutely not, it's based on what? Absolutely not. Is I think that there are fighters out there who have, you know, pushed on and maybe won some of those fights. where they were, you know, down or something like that, maybe you've got up and snack victory. So, so what you said, Amir Khan showed more resilience? Yeah, that's mad. Than Chris Ebenk, senior?

They're about to say. You just said something, but I didn't hear no words. They're about to say. They're unequal. Same. So who's the guy you were saying Amir Khan had fought when he got knocked down and won? Marcus Maidana.

Okay, I don't know much about this man. Good fire, though. Oh, he was a very good. Tire. Okay, but is he Nigel Ben? Maybe flight Mayer would think that he, No, no, no, there's no, that ferociousness, that ferociousness of early Nigel Ben. And he was undefeated.

He was, you know, he was coming in to take the belt. You can't throw out a mere kind and they say absolutely not for my guy. I think you can say, no, not for me. But I think absolutely not, it's a piss take. Well, I didn't say he doesn't have hard. I just said, no, he said, don't backtrack. Absolutely. You might be on.

Don't do the backtracking. And like you said, the script actually says, warrior spirit. He's changed it to the warrior's code. Because that is what he bangs on about. Yes. When you've gone 12 rounds with no business winning and you come back, obviously what happened in the 12th round against Watson was not the outcome. Resilience, isn't it?

Isn't that resilient? Because he stayed there, took his beating for 11 rounds, where he had no reason to stay in there. And like you say, he came out on top. But most people aren't staying those 11 rounds to take a beating. Can I ask you a personal question on that? You know when he comes home from the hospital, So you see firsthand the damage.

You're a baby. You're a baby then. You're young. I'm young. Do you remember him? Do you remember any of it? Not really? No. Okay. I don't remember him watching his tapes over and over and over again. Okay. Yeah. Once I was of age, but he's not fighting at that point. Not when I was born.

Good, good, good, good. All right. All right. Your second one? I'm going to America and I'm going to the legend that is Arturo Tundergatty. Yeah. They called him on HBO. You knew to a such boxing head. The blood, sweat, you know, as soon as I said that name. As soon as I said that name, all the memories start flooding in.

Dude. Gaddy Ward? Three fights. Dude. What it is about the Gatty Ward one is the fact that he looked broken, that those body shots were killing him and you felt like, stop the fight.

End the fight ref, and then for him to kind of turn it around and win, Arturo Gatti was just, when I think of just grit and determination, I think of his face is what springs the mind. Yeah, the cuts, the swellings. That first fight, round nine, when you Jim Lampley screaming at the referee

Frank Capuchino to stop the fight. Yeah, stop it, Frank. You can stop it right now. Sorry. Yeah, and he says that legendary phrase, Frank Cappuccino's going to let him keep going. Yeah. And Gatty comes in at the back of the rounds and ends up winning the back end of the round.

By the way, that is the best commentary team of all time. It was, wasn't it? Yeah, Jim Lampley, Mani Stewart. And Larry Merchant. What a team. And even in the losses, Mayweather, he didn't want to quit. Didn't want to quit against Floyd Mayweather.

By the end, it was actually a bit like, your dad by the end you knew the right. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. He's on the wall in like some of his last fights. Yeah. And it hurt you because you knew he's not going to win but there's no quitting him.

Yeah. A bit like your dad in that sense. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Again, I'm sorry to do this. Sorry to everyone at home that's watching this. Like, I'm going old school again. Okay. I'm going old school. I'm going to like the 1920s. No, come on. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Em. There was a guy. I know you were almost born then. Yeah. Back in my day, back in my day, there was one fella, but there's a guy called Ken Wickwar.

Now, if you do your research about Ken Wickwar, he had 473 fights in 20 years. How many? 473. In 20 years. He's in the record books for the most fights ever by anyone. And he wasn't a journeyman, by the way. He won like 373 of them. So it wasn't like he was a guy that was losing and just fighting and fighting and fighting.

473 fights in 20 years tells me you have resilience. you have hearts and you're slightly bonkers. I'm going to say, it tells me you're slightly mad too. Slightly bonkers. In 20 year period again. And again, we're going back to the 1920s where it wasn't even six-ounce gloves. It was four-ounce. Four-ounce gloves is basically, it basically is like you wearing a sock of your hand.

That's all it is. There's nothing else. No padding. You're just going at each other. And that's what he did. Basically, no neutral corner either. No neutral corner. If you drop the fighter, as they're on their knee, you can hit them again.

Oh. Yeah. That only came in the late 20s. And they were fighting just to kind of add to it. it wasn't even 15 rounds. Sometimes you're fighting till you couldn't fight no more. So it's just a street fire.

It's basically a street fight. And most people would have those street fights like they're doing the bare knocking out where you're having, the damage you take is so much you're doing maybe twice a year because the damage is too much. This guy had nearly 520 years.

500 in 20 years. Oh, 500. You said he lived to 520 years. I was like, he may, he must be Superman. He's definitely the winner. He's definitely the winner. He's definitely the winner.

He's still allowed this time. So that's my second hipster choice. All right. Third one, go on. You go first. Chris Eben, Jr. Stop. Stop.

Thank you. You passed the book to me. I want to see if any of us cross over before I announce. Okay. Well, I am going to go with the 1950s, and I'm going to go with a legend, undefeated fighter, Mr. Rocky Marciano. Okay.

Rocky Marciano. It's not even just that he's undefeated fighter. defeated. He was never better than really anyone he fought. He was just more resilient. He fought a 15 round fight against Jersey Joe Walcott. He took a tremendous beating and he knocked him out one punch in the 13 round. Today they would have stopped that fight. Today he would have lost it on points because it would have went 12 rounds. He went through so many wars and he just beat these guys. He looked after by the mob, a bit of dodgy decisions may be too. Very few. But he was literally blood-sweeting guts. I mean, I've ever seen a documentary about him and they said he's...

was the quintessential 50s fighter because he took punishment that you just don't see today and that documentary was in the 90s. Undersized as well. And very undersized. He was a heavyweight who was probably at his peak

185 pounds. I mean, David Benevides was a super middle weight. He was weighing more than that at fight night. So yeah, undersized took so much punishment and ended up on the fear.

It's difficult to argue that, isn't it? Yeah. Difficult to argue. Should I go and then you can go lost? Yeah, I'm actually... I've just changed my mind. I'm trying to...

Okay, no, no, no, don't change my mind, but I think mine's more of an honourable mention. Okay, we can have honourable mentions. My final one is a film that I watched three years ago. And based off the film, I had to put him in, Jait LaMotta. We've all probably watched a film and maybe not. Raging Ball, Robert De Niro played him, Joe Peske's in the film. And it's mainly because of that fight with Sugar O'Roy Robinson, who was, sure, Robinson's probably the greatest fight of all time.

Yeah. You know, most people have him as number one, right? If not, top three. And in their fight in 1945, where he gets pushed, Jake Lamontal pushes, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugaray wins. But I remember Jake said in the film and Robert De Niro played it so well, says, but you never knocked me out, but you never knocked me down.

I'm still standing. But you never knock me down. And there was something about that. Like he's will to absorb punishment and be proud of, I'm still standing against the greatest fighter of all time. I know I'm not supposed to be in the ring with this guy. But the fact is I was able to stand. and trade with him and he wasn't able to knock me down.

And it was something about, I don't know, just almost that was his achievement. It wasn't a case of winning world titles. It was a case of you're so much better than me. The whole world knows you're better than me, but you never knock me down. And that's the way the film ends and I think it's such a good ending. That's why I've got Jake Lamottor in there. And Jake Lamont lived to be well into his 90s. Lived.

Well, is it with you an age? I just think it's interesting. Well, Emily was saying at the start, you know, Oh, well, let these fires. Let these fires still stay down. It's like, well, two of them we've named. into the 80s and that one of them still here today. Just saying.

Are they all there? Go ahead, last one. It's the last one. Mine are current because I'm not old like you lot. I don't know. We're the same age. This is her way of being kind to us. Sam, what she really wants to say,

I translated for you, is that you guys have so much knowledge. Basically, yeah, yeah. I think mine, having heard yours, mine's not really relevant. Go on then, no. No, I'm not actually even going to say it. That bad?

Not bad. It's just, you're going to shoot me down. I will say this, though. I think the Fury Newbeck one. are very good. Yeah, I think I'm happy. So if there's anything close to that, I think that's going to be very good.

The Fury one isn't great on elimination. Yes, let's do a process of elimination. No, we've got to hear your third. No, no, we don't. We absolutely don't. Is it Chris Youbank, Jr.? No, it's not. That's quite good, really?

It was more funny. So, like, off record, I would have actually said, because I was, we're talking about this the other night after the fight at the weekend. Lee Wood, 12 round, when he got knocked. Mick Conlin out of the ring.

I was up on my feet. And I know it's not the Frankenstein goat of boxing. I know. I'm happy to have that discussion. It's not. No, no, no. He's not going to win it. But Lee Wood's resilience, yeah.

I was ring side for that fight. And he gets knocked down. He's getting battered by Conlin. He's getting battered. And I remember thinking you're getting battered in your own backyard. So I'm almost embarrassed for me a little bit. I'm like, this is the worst thing ever. You want a home advantage.

And the Irish out singing the Notting Forest fans. and you're losing. And he has a way of finding something, Lee Wood, that I think you're born with, you know? I don't think it just, I think you've got it innately. Lee Ward is not a terrible show. I don't think it's a terrible show. That makes me feel better.

It doesn't compare to your 1920s and 50s. But you know, his fights, though, are like Rocky old school movies. Like Rocky movie. All of these fights are like that, all of them. Win or lose. He's getting chint or he's chining you. Basically, yeah. He's getting chint or he's churning you.

You were going to have the nail onto the ground. Okay. Let's get rid of Leeward, yeah? We just gave you all this praise, but there you go, line right trod. Sorry, Lee. I think Amir Khan's gone as well. Yeah. Well, we let him decide who he throws out.

Sorry. Who goes out from one list? Ameriqan. Amir Khan. Amir can. I take out, I'll take out Kenwick War from my list because that was the 1920s. That was the 1920s guy. Because I had nearly 500 fights though.

Yes, he wasn't 500 years old, nearly 500 fights. No, 500 fights. Ken Wick war was gone. Okay. So I've got Jake Lamottor and I've got George Chivalo. You've got Eubank Senior and Tyson Fury. Who have you got left? Gaddy and Marciano.

And I am happy to, out of the two of them, put a line through Martiano. He doesn't compare it again. I'm saying Gaddy. Do you choose your dad or Fury? You go. Your dad or Fury? Pelly for your thoughts. Who goes?

Let's go to who you're better at 11-day. I'm taking out of Jake LaMotta. It's based off a film. It was true, but I can't put someone here based off one fight. Yeah. So I've still got left unbeaten George. Sorry, the guy that never got knocked down George Chaballo. Okay.

I think that's such a good show. That is. Okay. We've got to remember we're doing the Frankenstein goat of boxing. Okay. This is the beating part of the Frankenstein. But a guy that you could never knock down. Yeah, but is that because he's got a chin?

Now that's because he's just like, you won't put me down. And the good thing about my guy, he didn't get put down and he thought arguably the greatest, three of the greatest top 10 heavyweights of all time in Fraser, Arley and Foreman, and they could not put this man down. I think you say him from that day. Frazier was never that big for puncher.

One second, one second. Ali was never big a puncher. No knockouts on Ali's record? He said it himself. Did they have no knockouts? He had knockouts, but he used to say himself, I'm not a big puncher. I'm fast.

It's all about timing. So he catches you. It's not about these punch power as these hymen that got you and that's why he knocked you down. Couldn't catch my Joel George Chavala. No, you couldn't catch him. The greatest headway of all time

couldn't catch my guy George Chavalo. Big statements. Very big thing. All right. Anyway, go on, UBank or Fury? UBank. What, stays or goes? Stays.

Oh, okay. I was thinking. We had the moment of all moments there. And you let us down. You let us down. So we're down to tree. We're down to free. Chavago.

UBank for UBank and Arturo Gadi. I'm going to let you two fight this one out. I almost feel like this should be a fan vote at home. I feel like this is difficult. I almost feel like we should throw this to the people. I think the people should decide. We are definitely all split on this one.

I don't think we're going to agree. No, I am sticking with our tarragadi. Okay. I am sticking with Arturagadi and for anyone disagreeing, watch the guy. Watch our tree fights. Your man got put down many times though. And he always got back up.

And he always got back up. Yeah, but my man didn't have to prove you could get up because he never went down. He's got a good chin. Yeah, but your man got hurt so many times and I had to get up with my man, even go down to prove he can get up. Yeah, but if he did go down, who's to say he would have got up?

But we don't know because he didn't. Just saying. Where was your guy, went down? And he stayed down sometimes. What was the best era for heavyweights? 70s. My guy fought in that era. Thank you.

We are done, ladies and gentlemen. The book is closed. Split decision. Split decision. Well, no, it's up to you. You're sticking you bank, right? Yeah, split decision. I think we bring in a producer here.

Jay. Okay, no, hold on, hold on. Hold on. I'll mask here. You're the guy's number one. Out of our two, who goes? Eddie, your two, who goes? Yeah.

Chavago. Chivalo goes or stays? Wait, wait. You did kind of sell it to me a little bit. What do you mean goes? Hold on a set. As in, if I, if you say, yes. I'm talking.

Out of our two, who goes? You bank stays. We then have, my friends, a decision. Did you say Chivalo? A unanimous decision. Yes, I said, you bank stay, Shavalo goes. Wow. So.

The warrior code. The warrior code came true. The warrior code. Now, clearly. this isn't rigged, we're not going to clearly. I'm not going to have money on the table.

All right everyone. It's time for the final round. This is where each week one of us takes a hot take in boxing and we discuss it. Last week was my turn. This week, M. It's your turn.

Oh, M. Hot take. The consequences for drug cheats is not enough. There is no consequences for drug cheats. Well, there are some. Not really. Not really.

It's not a consequence, is it? It's a bit of time off. It's a nice holiday. Oh. If you get it's that far. Okay. What consequence do you both want? Serious bands.

What's the serious ban? Two to three years. And I actually think it should be lifetime bans. Because I think, look, I know we love the sport, but you can die in the ring. I mean, that's the, that's the big hot take, right? You can. Yep. I almost feel like the consequence should be so bad, you don't.

You don't risk it. Yeah, you don't. You don't even want to think about it. But I think it's called it's life. Yeah. And I think that's what it should be. I even think two years is, somebody's fighters fight once a year.

Yeah, it has to be effective enough that they don't want to risk it. Yeah. But when you have sanctioned bodies who say, oh, we're all for clean boxing, but when you have fighters and they're like, oh, but, you know, they didn't do it deliberately. You know, where's the repercussions? Fires are going to look at that and think, oh, so if I get, if I get caught, I don't have to worry about anything. I'll get maybe six months.

I'm not fighting for another eight months anyway. So I'm good. Yeah. I'm being allowed to be active in between that time as well. No. And looking for loopholes. Yeah. You just go to America.

Yeah, you just go to America. You can get different licenses from different countries or different states. Sometimes it's backdated to when the fight was supposed to be. So you're like, I'm only out the room for another four or five months. I think it has to hit fight is hard in the pocket and it has to be time. There has to be like, we're taking all your money back. Boxing needs almost like a world governing body. because it's the Wild World West.

And almost for like some of these cases, if it went to a wild governing body who had no influence or no stake in boxing. But this is what Varda is. So it's an external company. Varda will catch you though. But then Varda almost passed on. Yeah, they're past the book.

Here it is. Well, they don't pass the buck, but they're not the law, are they? They're tested. So they do what they're supposed to do and they say, okay, we've caught them. Then it's up to the, I don't know, the British boxing board of control, whatever,

to kind of say, okay, thank you. Now we'll take over. And they don't do it when they take over. Yeah, they shouldn't take over. Yeah, no, they kick the can down the road. But also the fact of the matter is, you failed a drug test. You failed two drug tests. There's no discrepancy in that.

Regardless of why you failed it, you failed it. That's not under dispute, right? You can say it was accidental or I ate something contaminated. Irrelevant. You still failed the drug test. 100%. Exactly. So why we are arguing about it.

Now, I've noticed over the last decade, it's almost been like, you failed it, but it wasn't your fault. So it's lesser than, yeah. That's what I mean. It's nonsense. You've people just assume. As soon as the fighters failed, oh, it's contaminated beef. Oh, it's this. Oh, you know, he had something that you shouldn't have.

It's like, okay, well, he had something he shouldn't have. Why is he not looking at what's in it? You know, these fighters, they're happy to count calories. They're happy to see, you know, oh, there's too much sugar on that, but they don't know there's something on the bad list. Seriously? And the worst thing is it's the big names getting caught. It's not like the smaller mid-tib.

It's the biggest fighters on planet Earth getting called. The issue with that is because not everybody is tested. Yes. So we're not testing these smaller fighters. So they're essentially, they could all be on it. And we never know. It's only when you get to a certain point in your career where Varda is introduced voluntarily or not,

that's when you get found out. That's too late by that point. That's actually quite scary. The fact that you can be, let's just say a British fighter, you can be a British fighter who's 25 and O. You've been knocking everyone out on the small show us, but you could be on juice. You've got to the stage where you start making money,

but you've got there by cheating because there is no testing. There's no testing, but as well as that, whenever a fighter, like a small level fighter, those will say fail of drugs tests and maybe it's not even for a performance answer like Liam Cameron, Dylan White, before he became famous. They throw the book at you. But the governing bodies and the sanctioning bodies take it easy.

They're like, oh, but, but, but. Because Liam Cameron's not putting money in the sanctioning body's pockets. Exactly. These fights create no money. So, like, you can go. So when you say lining pockets, just to be clear for everyone watching or listening,

so basically what you're trying to say is they don't make any money in their fights. Obviously, the British Box and Border Control will take a percentage. If you're taking a percentage of a superstar that makes $10 million a fight, then that's a lot. If you're taking a percentage of someone that's taking $20,000 a fight, then it's nothing.

So there's no interest in that person, per se. Yeah, money's always been a big problem. I've always said this with Canelo when he was fighting, when he got caught for taking drugs. Obviously, they're going to do nothing with Canela because he's the biggest star in the sport. Look, the money that Canello generates for the WBC and just Las Vegas.

Yeah. I don't have you been to a Canela fight in Las Vegas. Literally everyone's eating. The hotels are eating. everyone that does and sells things that you shouldn't sell was eating. So Canello is more important to, it's not just to boxing, it's to Vegas. How are you going to ban someone like that for two years? You're not going to do it.

You're never going to do it. That's the issue. Well, you can do it. You actually can do it. And that would set a precedent. I think if they were to just, you know, go and say, right. Yes. No issues.

You're gone. You're gone for two years. We're fining you, this and that and the other fighters would look and say, oh, if it happened to him and he's a big star, it would happen to me. But what they see is it happened to him. He got away with it. Holder. Exactly that.

That's the problem. That's the problem. And that's the problem. And fires know, I'm making money. The promoter's going to back me. Everyone's going to back me. The people who are involved, like the British Boxing Board of Control, they're like, what do we do?

We're just going to have to let this go. Are we to blame? Yes. We absolutely are. Yeah. Because ultimately, the Rheingal Sears, the Canelo's, the Connerbein, whatever, it's still bums and seats. We could respond by Sam.

We're not tuning in. We're not watching. We're not going to their fights. And that would make, I think, a bit of a dent. The fact is, we choose. tuning we watch. So we're almost responsible, we're almost validating the fact that they're allowed to fight. Does that make

any sense? Yeah, but it shouldn't come down to us. It shouldn't get to the point of us re-watching that person. There needs to be a step in the middle. Yeah, we shouldn't be a decision maker. But we are. And if you think about a prime example, when Canello failed his test for the Triple G fight and they rescheduled it, you had people saying

I am watching this fight to watch Canello loose. So there you go. I mean, all eyes, and it did bigger numbers the second time because of that. So we're all in agreement, but what would be lifetime b. You've thrown out of the sport, I don't care what you're taking. Lifetime. It's far too dangerous. Two year band massifying. Two year

band massifying. Like I'm talking north of seven figures. Okay, but what if you're not a big fighter where north of second, you don't have north of seven figures? You've been maybe making 100 grand your whole career. Okay, well, no, we do it. Then in a case-by-case basis. This hearing lies the problem. It shouldn't be a case-by-case basis. It should be you've committed a crime. This is your time.

Once you do it by case-by-case, it means who has the best lawyer. No. And the best lawyer comes to the table and you lose that case. Case by case can be blanket, right?

So two year ban regardless, how much is this fighter worked? All right, 100 grand. It doesn't matter even if you never made a 100 grand. 100 grand is the minimum fine. Where's this money going there?

It should be going into more drug tested. It should be going into actually, what I'd love to do, I'd love to give it to retired fires. Yeah. Veterans. Ran, you know, maybe didn't run their career after.

They're retired right and get them, you know, get them into a hostel, get them work and get them something like that going into the sport the legends who have done a claim. That's what we should be doing. And for bigger fighters like Canello, you can afford a mill.

You can afford this. We're taking an extra bit off you. I agree. I agree as well. Let's see, because nothing's going to happen. We can hope. It needs to be a bigger discussion.

It needs to be a wider discussion. Ryan Garcia felt fighting Devin Haney. He got a year ban. His next fight is fighting for a world title. He lost. Next part after that world title in Vegas. That's someone that got caught cheating. Got a year ban.

His next fight is a world title fight. You know how crazy that is? Yeah, and you can't undo the damage to Devin Haney, and he was out of the ring for a year as well. He didn't even do anything. See, that's a wider discussion. The damage someone on drugs does to their opponent. Devin Haney, I think,'s been scarred for life because of that fight.

He looks good still, but I think he's been scarred for life because of that beating he took when someone was on drugs. That's why Devin Haney tried to sue him. He did. So he tried to go the other route. Like, okay, if you're not doing anything, I'm going to sue him. And fight fans laughed at Devin Haney. Why are you suing someone?

I'm like, well, because he kicked the shit out of me. when he was on drugs. That's why I'm suing him. It's basically assault. Yeah, it's a sort. It's a sort. And these are classes, deadly weapons if you're a fighter. So it's a sort with deadly weapons.

And eventually you drop the case, but I don't know, boxing movie boxing. All right, anyway, that's a lovely discussion, ladies and gentlemen. Is that the final round? There we go. Is that two or three? All right, there you go. Another episode in the books. Really enjoyed that one.

So many great conversations around the table. Now, do me a favor. Please like, share, subscribe. So much more content coming your way. And we'll see you on another episode of the The Punch Perfect podcast. Thank you for listening to this latest episode of The Punch Perfect podcast on BBC Sounds. Listen up and can download BBC Sounds from the app store and subscribe to the Punch Perfect podcast

where you can listen to all the series. The Punch Perfect podcast, Engineering the Ultimate Fighter, is an Insanity Studios production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds.