5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - A Dublin Ding-Dong

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

What’s next for Anthony Cacace after becoming a two-time world champion? The Belfast fighter was simply too good for Jazza Dickens at the 3Arena in Dublin. Barry Jones joins Buncey to dissect the fight and debate whether a unification showdown with Emanuel Navarrete could be next. They also preview George Liddard vs Tyler Denny for the British and Commonwealth middleweight titles in London, and a middleweight world title fight in Orlando.

This is Five Live Boxing. Dublin is a fight city and it needed a fight on Saturday night. It needed an extraordinary atmosphere and it had in one corner from Liverpool. Jazza Dickens, the WBA Super Featherweight Champion and in the other corner, the Apache, Anthony Kakachi from Belfast. Ding, ding as they say. What more do I need to say? It was absolutely splendid.

I'm Steve Bunce and this is Five Live Boxing. Dublin, Dublin, Dublin, Dear Dirty Dublin, one day they will write songs about the fights at the old point and the three arena. They'll write songs, they'll write ballads.

Men, grown men will stand up in pubs and they'll have tears streaming down their cheeks as they tell stories about the night that Pierce O'Leary, the night that Jazz O'Dickens, the night that Katie Taylor, they will tell stories. Now, one of the men who will be giving them

the stories to tell is, of course, the only man I could have next to me For this particular gig, it was Barry Jones. In the thick of it, right in the middle of it, zombie was blaring and you were up, no doubt, screaming with your heads out. First of all, Bell, it was, for a moment, looked like a double triple celebration,

because for a moment the Irish were going to win the Six Nations. And then they narrowly didn't with, like, seconds left. What was the weekend like, now? What was your weekend like? I don't want to cause a stir, but you just can't trust the English to do anything. for you. What, scored nearly 50 points against the French.

I know. I know. What a good weekend for rugby. Really well. Even Wales. But I mean, that Ireland, Scotland game was amazing. It really was. Really, really was.

And obviously, we were walking around. Me and Darren Bark, walking around Dublin in the day, and it was fantastic. Really good atmosphere. And so you feel it's going to be a good atmosphere on the night. But you're never quite sure. And we were told Pearsallelry sold a few thousand tickets. At two or three thousand,

the old-fashioned Josh Warren away by hand, apparently. Go to door. But you hear that and you go maybe, maybe, maybe. And it was busy quite early. Which is a really good sign if a venue is busy quite early. And especially there's been a big rugby match. You know, it might be busy, but not early. You know what I mean?

Because they've all gone to the rugby and they take a while for they've filtered in. But it's busy quite early. But by the time Pierce-A-Ludder-Ludder got in the ring, it was packed. And there's no better crowd than the Irish crowd. Like anywhere around the world. That's why New York, Great Ben Katie Taylor boxes. Or Car Frampton. Or Cal Frampton, wherever they go.

I mean, it was amazing. It was absolutely boiling, buzzing. And I think his ringwalk, and there was a woman. This is Pierre O'Leary's ringwalk. Yes, there was a woman singing the song to end. And I hope I'm right. I think it was his mum. Yeah, I think that rings a bell.

Especially so many knows, because she jumped into the ring after it as well. I'm pretty sure it was his mum, which makes it just even more. Because what does he live? He lives like... No, he generally... If you come out of the point, or I call it the point, You come out at the three arena from the front entrance, so you're facing the lifty, the river.

You turn right, you go across the first bridge, you go down that street, and he's from the flats on the right. So it's not one of those he lives half a mile away, and it's like seven miles away, six miles away, or half a mile away in a jet. Now, that's where he lives. Now, I was with Pierce and Brian Peters and a few others about six or seven weeks ago when this fight,

it had been announced about two weeks, and he was talking then that he needed thousands, peru. Thousands more tickets. Not another 500, but thousands more. Typical, Frank Warren, like typical promoter when we're going to Crook Park next. Of course you did.

They're slow down a little bit, but I mean, you can't blame him. It was a great atmosphere, but that's not big enough for him, though. Yeah. But you have to go there again. It'll go there again, and listen, Maxi Hughes was pulled out, right decision. It would have been lovely been Mark Jamie. What we need to do, Bell, because this

is a straightforward editorial podcast. We need to mention, obviously, if we can. The main reason, the main fight, the WBA, Super Featherweight Championship of the world, Jazza Dickens, who told a ridiculous story in the week

about how when he was sparring and training in Dublin, he lived in a van outside of the Point, in the Point Car Park, against Anthony the Apache Kakachi, from Belfast, but very much an Irish citizen, an Irish fighting icon. The atmosphere you talked about

was absolutely incredible. Before the fact, If I started, and I'm talking about on the day, on the night, as they're walking to the ring, because I often do that. As I'm sitting at ringside, I want to get a gaze. Because I could change my opinion. How did you see it before, just as they make their ring walks, how did you see it? I don't do what you do.

I don't change my opinion. Even if I'm tempted. Even if you know you're wrong? I always think if your first feeling and assessment is a cent, not just a, I think he's going to win because he wears blue shorts. I mean, if it's a genuine reason, then I think you could say, stick to me because all the build it to a fight

especially the 24-7 series all those sort of things they're designed to make you change your mind yeah that's the beauty of them but what if you've got inside of knowledge oh that's different and that's what I'm talking if someone's injured if someone did you make the weights

one of the guys that's getting them ready in the trains of them could come to you two hours earlier and say Steve I don't like to look of I don't like to look at Joe I don't look at John I heard some on the jazz dick and sparring there we go you see but that didn't I already made my session before that and it was that Kakachi would win on points,

but I thought he'd been clearer than he did. Okay. That's the truth. And I thought, I knew it'd be a hard fight. I thought it would be a more exciting fight than it was. What, what,

yes, interesting in that, because at the end of the day, the three scores are 1-1-5, 113, 116, 112, 116,

113, all three. I think one of them was announced wrong, though. Oh, okay. I'll double-checked that. Okay, I'll double-checked that. Kachachi taking the decision.

Dickinson, saying afterwards that he thought he could have done enough to win, not screaming, not shouted. He felt he could have done enough to. Yeah. Of the seven, of the 12 rounds, only five of them were scored unanimously by the three judges. So that's seven floating rounds. That's a hard fight by any estimation. Oh, sorry, sorry, that's a close fight by any estimation.

It is. I think it was the right winner and only by about two rounds. I think that's correct. But every rowman was competitive, close. So, and I tell this to people. all the time. If you're watching at home, just in a general trial round fight,

when it's a close fight, you tend to think, well, sometimes you can favour one more than the other than what they're doing, and go, well, you run that and win this and everyone's, and in a close fight nowadays,

everything's a robbery. It drives me mad. But the worst season I've ever seen, quote unquote. Yeah. And a robbery. That could have been 120, 108. Yeah.

I'm on your side. Because the ref, I could tell us, I say this all the time, and I continue to say it, a judge doesn't look at a fight in an entirety. in theory.

It's not a 12 round fight to a judge. It's 12, 1 round fights. And he scores the cat, red corner, blue corner. But we do have mercy rounds. You know, as I call the mercy rounds. No, the judge doesn't. No, we do watching at home watching.

But you don't think judges do. I still think judges do. I mean, you've got to almost judge the next round, view the next round, as two new fighters. I appreciate that you have in theory. They're human. They are human.

So, because otherwise, I mean, and they must do it when they go, They give four rounds to one fight, and it could have gone either way, and they go, I'll give the next one to this guy. But then that's corrupt, because you're not going with your feeling. You're thinking, I better to answer my bets. So that can be a problem. So I think you have to go with what you see.

And I think the judge has got it right. I don't know whether they agree with the rounds. It was a close fight, but I think if my feeling was, and jazz is brilliant. And I mean, it's a great story and it's sad to see it. And I did say, I don't know how much so I'm happy I am for Kakachi. I don't know either one very well, but well enough to speak to. And looking at the deflation in the face of Jazza Dickens,

just winning a world title, you just think, oh, no, he doesn't deserve it. Because both those fighters had nothing given to him. For different reasons, by the way. Jazz of Dickens was promoted better than Kakachi on his way up. Or more prominent on his way up. And his world title fights, had his British title fights. But with his losses, the interest wanes. That was his 60 things.

Yeah, so you know, you tend to think, and then he becomes a little bit of Caddenford at a higher level. And that's what he was against Batta Cassiab, when he won the interim title in Turkey. Last summer in Turkey. Yeah, I was lucky enough to be a ring side. Actually, I jumped in the ring. One of the few things I owned it twice at that, him and him and Joe Cordina. I was so over the moon for him,

because the way he bullied him and knocked him out. It was just fantastic it was. And he was undefeited. Former Olympic gold meddhist. Did it, by the way? Did it a job on him? He beat an Olympic gold meddist. I mean, and he beat him out the side. and he was there to make up the numbers, not to win.

And it was bullying for him. And then I remember, I text him, I said, welcome to the club. And he went not quite yet because it was a regular, so,

and anyway, a few weeks later, a few months later, they'd become a genuine world champion. And then to lose on your first defence in a fight where, you know, you weren't totally out box

or beat up, it's hard to take. Just out, it was the right decision, Steve, it really was. Yeah, I agree.

And the reason neither won box great is because, they're both sharp counterpunchers not by trade but they both are sharp punches off the other people's attacks so they didn't want to take a risk and jazzett jazzo needed to get close to the target quicker

and stay there and he couldn't quite do that and Kacchi wasn't flicking his punches as fast as he can and was pushing him at times and it made everyone a little bit too tentative but the crowd still liked it the crowd still loved it I mean it was it was an event

without being an exciting fight it was intriguing because you're waiting for someone to do a little bit more. You couldn't take your eyes on. Someone's going to try and grab about the scruff of the neck in a minute, in a minute. And you knew, and for them.

And that's the problem with fights like that. And the way I box, unfortunately, all my fights were like that. The close you get to the end of the round, the end of the fight, you know it's tight. Yeah. So you have to win it more,

but also you've got to mitigate the mistakes. Yeah. Less mistakes. Can I do make a mistake? No, because the fight is close and the round is close. If I make a mistake, I lose that round,

I lose the fight. I mean, you could sense, you could sense the tension. Yeah, the tension is, yeah. Yeah, the tension is, yeah. I mean, and coping with that. And all those rounds were shoot gourd in a really wild and varied way, those last four or five rounds. And fights not have to be physically tough to knack you well, because coping with,

coping with fight that guy with tension, that mental strain exhaust you, really does. And that's where mistakes happen, so that's where you don't throw as much punches as maybe you should. I was looking at that little success, that little sequence that Kukachi's got now, the Apache, okay? No jokes about scalps and new scalps. Leave that to the written. voice. I think, and I want to make a case here, and you can, I didn't forewarn you, so you're going to have to work off the top of your head. Four consecutive fights, because Kacchach's last four fights. Stops Cordina, beats Josh Warrington on points, stops Lee Wood, beats Jazz

Dickens on points. Wins a couple of world titles, and all of them were for versions of the world title. As a four sequence inside two years, I like that sequence. I'm not saying it's the best ever by a British boxer. It's not the best ever, but it's a good one. So, so the instant thing is... Josh Taylor's is how to be... Josh Taylor, Josh Taylor, is a good one, is a true one. Carl Frotch has got a couple of four sequences.

Lennox kind of hasn't. And a lot of fighters you think would have, there's a fight in between, there's a fight in between, or it's over a bigger time. But Kacchi's got an a shot, that, because Lee was a good win, but it wasn't... Actually, saying that, Lee would look really good against Warren. Against Josh Warrington, yeah.

But there's two fights. who have maybe... Absolutely, but so... So Joe Caldina, he starts as an underdog in that fight, and Joe Caledina's live. Massive underdog. A massive underdog. Okay, the Jazz of Dickens is a 50-50 fight

and Jazz is on a run, and they're both maybe at the same points in their careers. And, yeah, Josh Warrington and Lee Wood, maybe not at their best, but then Lee Wood does a great job on Josh Warrington. So I really like that as a four sequence. I mean, now... I know exactly what's going to happen,

because I know you too well. In an hour and a half's time, you're going to be on a train, going home and you're going to send me something and it'll just spin it with a show Sonny Edwards when he won the title that was a great sequence of four and then you're also going to look and you're going to go

you know what I had to look Lennox Lewis didn't have four like that he beat 15 good men Anthony Joshua beat 15 good men I mean you know this is this is a British box obviously Alexander Usick is an honorary Brit so Usick can be in that mix and I can see I know you when you're working bell

you're the loudest thinker I've ever known you're shouts, you're shout I don't do it very often, that's why. Your head shouting, you're trying to come up with one that's... That's a cute young. Definitely better. So, anyway, I really like that sequence. Let's deal with Jazza.

He thought Lee Wood a couple of years ago, was a tight decision at York Hall. One of those fights that I missed, and I'm trying to work out how I missed it, how did I miss a Saturday night at York Hall with Lee Wood and Jazza Dickens, whatever it was, about five years ago? How did I miss it?

A good contract, wasn't it? how was it? I think so. I think it was part of the golden contract. He beat Ryan Welsh in the final. In the production pack, that was the pandemic at that point. So the fight after...

I'm pretty sure Lee Wood was... I'm sure that was part of that. That goal... Is it about 2021? Yeah, it was that there. Yeah, it was that. Because he fights Zhu... I think it was there.

Because Lee Wood fights Zhu, you know, the Chinese guy... The other fight he was chucked in as an opponent, really, that was. Oh, yeah. Because Cam Zhu was set up for Warren in one day. Of course it was, yeah. I think at the end got that fight

just to mess up Warren and Warrington. I think at the time. Warrington was with Warrington's your mouth. If you're going to come in a swear. It's going the other way. Don't even suggest

promoters were doing this dirty trick. They were at the time, weren't they? They were, we forget what it was like then. But that's the beauty of boxing, but sometimes, you might, the proclers and not always your best interest in the heart, but sometimes you benefit from it

because they got their own agenda, which is their business, so they should. Yeah, of course. But I mean, you just say, being brave to say yes, just change your. your life. And Lee Wood's a prime example of that. Jazz of Dickens is another example.

And Antio Kacchi, who pretty much went to Saudi Arabia really to try not to get beat up in a lot of people's minds. Mine included. I love it because I was sat with his family the day before the fight in the Hilton Hotel in Riyadh. And his family and his team. And they said, oh, do you think he's going to get on? I said, oh, listen, good luck, good luck. And they said, no, give us an opinion. I said, I don't want to. I said, it's my honest opinion. Not because he's Welsh.

I think Anthony He'll give him a fight Can I know how good Anthony is But I said But Joe's on such a royal cordina I can't see he'll be beats him I honestly can't And I said I honestly

For your sake I hope I'm wrong I don't take that the wrong way And they were lovely No bad It's your opinion No I can be understand that And then On the night after

We stayed in the same hotel They come looking for me Friendly My luckily With a noose What'd you I said I said I got it wrong

And I'm happy for you I got it wrong You know what I mean And it was amazing I don't mind that when people come up to you. If you get pushed at a fight hotel to give a verdict, and you have to do it sometimes, especially if there's someone who is his family, if he's his dad or his mum,

and if you tell the truth, which a lot of people don't tell the truth, but if you do tell the truth, you sort of qualify it, I like it when they come back afterwards and they say, listen, we really appreciate your honesty, as opposed to see you'd haven't got a clue, I knew you'd get it wrong, which you get far more of. I try and just always fubbing off, And most definitely, I do try,

if they do push me, I go, listen, you get a really good chance. I try and do that rather than say the prediction. Because why would you want to push me? You know, because then, like, you know, that's your kid or your mate, your brother. You know, it's stupid to ask really. But, I mean, you can't get offended if you,

if you push them, if someone's forcing you to give you a prediction, you give it, and they get upset, then that's on them, isn't it? But anyway, they never, they got it right, I got it wrong, that's the whole point. But they were lovely with it. And listen, and as much as I love Joe Cordelia, because he's Belgian from Cardiff and the rest of it,

and the Kakachi and and Jazza Dickens have both had to they've earned it they've never been given anything they've had to earn it and as well they're they are proper boxing stories

who ever looks at the Joshua's and Amia Cairns and people like that and James de Gales many in effect all the Olympic brilliant amateurs

who's termed professional the world class and they're in the limelight and all they are great stories but stories like these kids who nothing was given everything was earned

that's the real story. Your kind of fighters. Oh, mate. It really is. So, Bell, once it's over, Ryan Garner's on the undercard, unbeaten Ryan Garner.

I don't know if he's still British champion. He won that last time out, but hey-ho, the way British and European champions. He vacated the Europeans' heart because Josh Padley's not European champion. That's right, which he won up on that show. There's lots of fighters in that way of division. Now there's a lot of fighters thrown around.

Afterwards, Ryan Garner's name was thrown at him, and he just said, no disrespect, but I think I want unifications or potential undisputed. There's the two fighters out there. there's O'Shaki Foster, who isn't from Dublin, but with a name like that, he should be from Dublin. And, of course, the double champion, one of your favourites, Emmanuel Navarretti,

who had a brilliant win only about two weeks ago, which was a fight that you were doing everything to try and get to. I'm going to say this now, even if you've bosses from the Zona listening, I don't care. You would try and every move possible to convince them, I think even had a Mexican gang tattoo on your left shoulder to show them that you actually related to Navarra. It didn't work, did it? He didn't get out on the trip.

What's that? Taffauretti, I was calling myself. It's not much I didn't do. I mean, and I still disagree. But you didn't get there? It was ridiculous. I mean, there's always a great company to work for, by the way, just to keep my job. But that's a bad decision. Not sending you to that fight.

More importantly, forget about the fight. Phoenix is a wicked boxing city. I know. We've been there for a band. You've been there about seven times a badmobile. You've got an apartment there? Mungia. Mungarian Ryder as well, John Ryder.

I went for that. Absolutely. I didn't go for that. And Gabrielle Fendora was on a couple of the cars. She's brilliant to watch. Yeah, she was on the weekend. I mean, it's a proper fight and sit. It's like a Belfast with heat. Yeah.

There you go. Belfast with the sun. Belfast with heat and some decent food and some fun places to walk and wander. So what does, you know, you, I think, I haven't spoken to Kukachi since the fight. I've spoken to a very elated Simon Legg and everyone's very happy. being a cacchi business. Oh, he's crazy. It was.

Brilliant. Loved it. You're lovely guy. Double world champion or two-tone world champion. The Ghana fight can be made, and a lot of money can be made. If that went to the South Coast, outdoors at Southampton, be unbelievable business. Or it could be part of. We're going to talk in a minute about maybe something big at Croke Park.

Who knows? Stranger things have happened. But, but, or in the north. Let's get that right. You know, in the north. But what's your gut feeling? As a former world champion and as a fighter. Do you know what?

Will you take the money, or would you push for undisputed? Would you push for unification? Because they're going to be good money. Fosters and Navaretti. It's funny, see, because, like, because you've got tickets, he was age into account. 37. He was talking about retirement, win or lose,

intentionally. I saw that interview. A couple of interviews last week he did. But he's never going to happen because, you know, all the money's there now, but he hasn't earned a lot of money up until this point. But... This is the cashing out time.

The Ryan Garner fights a hard fight. Yeah. There's talk of St. Mary's, and I hope that happens for him, but selling... out Bournemouth indoor whatever it's called the place yeah the bit

but Bournemouth then I still said the BIC the BIC to say is one thing which is great by the way but doing 25,000 outdoors is an outfit I agree with you and the same with Crook Park which sounds crazy that does

yeah anything it's a lot of people I mean you're going to get everyone on board for that but I'm not saying they can't do it not of course Warren can put his head on it can do anything but I mean John O'Carroll won yeah also so that's a potential

possible. And also, I'm tying in Pierce O'Leary here because you're promoting one fighter and you're building another fighter.

So O'Leary's a ticket seller who might go on to be the main star. Yeah. So he's almost top of the bill but like Ricky Hatton was, he's really,

he's top of the bill but he's not top of the bill. But it's Pierso Lorry, Jono and Apache really a croak part. No, no, not going to go talk about croak pack.

I mean, you've got to forget about a croak pack, I think. I think you go there again, the point. Wow. And there's more people, Wow.

More people, I mean, you'll sell it out easy. Yeah, won't even go on sale. But you're building something for Little Leary. Yeah. I mean. What's you call him Little O'Leary? No, O'Leary. You didn't call him Little.

I didn't call it. Very few people like that call Little. No, but the thing is that sometimes happens. Sometimes people that are not necessarily very tall make a lot of... Oh, do you know this? Because I was a friend of mine the other day who's four foot 10. And we went, we had a coffee, listen to this bell. This is no word of right.

Don't edit this, pal. This is a true story. So we get to this coffee shop And the only place we can sit Is in the window on the stalls So we so I said We got downstairs The woman says no

We closed downstairs on the Saturday So I said okay we'll sit there So the woman looked at me Look to my friend My friend went don't worry She said I've got a ladder in my bag To get up on the stall She didn't care

It is funny It's funny It is funny Because she's four foot nine I went to a restaurant yesterday In Dublin And the ones who have the bar And they had no tables

And they said sit at the bar I said sit at the bar I said I can't I'm free of heights Well, there's a minute that Paddy can cut out straight away. So, Bout, quite seriously, the O'Leary machine. I think it's very important. If you never heard a PSOLEO, sorry, Barryton, if you've never heard of Pierce O'Leary,

just whatever way you watch back fights or whatever it is. Just have a little look, and if you Google my name and him, you'll find a couple of things we've done together over the last two or three years. he is a he's a great talent he's a dangerous talent he's got really strong glasses on so when he put the glasses on

they're ridiculous like milky waste he's a milky, milky bar kids stuff he's Clark Kent a Superman he's a nice fellow in the world comes from really in the centre of Dublin and as you said there about he's kind of the star of the show

even if he's not the title the main title because John O'Call had a good win when an I-Bule title whatever that I-Bule means but it's still a A version, very light version. A super fellow mate.

So he's one thing. He'd be Carl Murphy. So that gives him maybe a little bit of a thing that he can be choked. And also he's been a former world title challenger before and a good fighter. And so that's a fight for a catchy. He goes in a massive favourite. Yeah. He feels safer.

He's not in Belfast, but he gets the box in Dublin again. Pacted out, he gets a decent money for it. He's happy with that. I mean, that's not a bad thing. He's happy with Dublin. And then he might get that fight with Navarretti. or Shaggy Foster or Stevenson. You don't really want that one.

But either way, there's fights there. But ultimately, you take whatever's on the table. You take the biggest money you can get. But the thought of possibly going to America, Phoenix or Vegas maybe, to box Navaretti. I mean, if that would have been the Navaretti, Navariti's got to box Charlie Suarez, who we had a controversial fight with recently.

And so I think, Has that been... Has that been older? I think it has or just going to be ordered the fight the game, which is fair enough, because he looked awful in that fight, and he was on his way... So he fights six weeks ago.

Before that cut, he was on his way to get him beat, I think. So he fights six weeks ago, if he fights in two or three months, that makes that fight October or so. Yeah, so... Late summer, just for the autumn, in the autumn, he fights... He fights O'Carroll.

Not John O'Carroll, not O'Carroll, it's Carol. John O'Carl. Then... You have a... Honestly, why don't you just call them Little... Like, just go full what called Little Carol,

called Little Carol, Little O'Leary, go on, little Taylor for Casey. Go on, do you like that. They're going to punch a lot harder than me, that's why. And then maybe, you know, and that's an all-Irish world title fight. Fantastic atmosphere. Helping Bill Pierce-Olliria

at the same title, she was a Proto. And then you get the Emmanuel Navretti fight if he wins or you get Swarez, if he wins, and then you get to go to travel to America, tick a box there, a big chop in the bill. What if Kekachi is thinking at 37, you know, it's been a decent long career. That's two fights, so, Steve.

That's two fights. And it might be the end of it. Bear the mind, you go to Vegas or do you go to Phoenix. It doesn't have to be June. No, November, you're still wearing a shirt and a T-shirt. So, you know, I mean, that would be the... He gets two fights of that as well. I mean, he got to beat a carol for one thing.

I mean, I wouldn't take Ryan Garner. I think that's the wrong fight for him at this stage of which year. It's the wrong fight for him. And the chances had he has to go to the UK... Yeah, he has to come to the south coast of England. He has gone to go into England. Yeah, he won't... I mean, a very best...

Jesse gets in in Belfast, which is great for him, but I don't quite sure. I think Frank Warren, who's ability to find the right matches, we're talking about this

in the coming weeks when Moses Atalmary, how perfectly, I believe his, Germain Franklin is, just how perfect at that time Dillian White was. Two of Frank Warren's

greatest pieces of matchmaking. We'll make an argument for that in later pods. But I can see Warren making Kikati an offer. He simply can't refuse. to fight gone and now.

Of course it is, yeah. Because that's what... That's the thing's moving forward, is it. Promotes that go out of business. That's his fight. It's dominoes with promoters. Of course it is.

And it sounds like they're cruel and heartless. Which they can be... Doesn't make them bad people. They're just part of business. You see the situation with a promoter and a fighter recently. And I mean, as much as I'm always for the fighter. Yes. I mean, we can be just as ruthless as promoters.

Absolutely. And managers and trainers. And all... It's all the same. I mean, you have to look. go for yourself. Boxes are not always right is what you're trying to say.

Quite often from ProDers, they have to think, like, in the domino effect, we have to find the next one. And usually you're matching your fighter with the one that's going to, your fighter, with one the other fighters

is going to beat your fighter. Because that one's going to become the name. I mean, that's how it is. So Ryan Garner looks the more, more attractive offer moving forward. He's younger, fresher. Agably, maybe better as well. Who knows?

I mean, it's a step up for him, by the way. That would be a massive. But you're just thinking, you know, timing might be right. But either way, Kukachi, like, whatever happens with him, he'd just be another good fighter. To add to that list of the good fighters already beat, yeah. And he's having the Indian summers of all Indian summers. And he's full in front of a capacity crowd

on a night of raw and unbelievable emotion. On St. Patrick's Weekend. Where there were a couple of points short, the Irish, from winning the Six Nations. Do you know what? That ain't bad. If he never fights again, that's not a bad way to go out

and I think he was sort of half-meath that's what he was half-mentioned and I think last week it's not a bad way to go out of course that changes I think he honestly thought because I don't think he's I think he struggles for the week

but not that bad not bad people are making out because he's so big I think he thought if he lost he was going to be the ends because there's no rebuild for him no and then you're just no one investing

then that's the problem the target bag now that was last Saturday about you've got another 80 or 100 hours before you go back to Ireland this time to North to Belfast for Jamie Conland night

and I will not be at that for a variety of reasons which really annoys me so could you just tone down your little preview of Jamie Conland please just don't I'm going on that early if you if you could not be too

too strong on it just say I'm going to see Michael Conlon in Belfast home we've had some good Jamie Conlon nights in Jamie and Michael haven't we? Have it? A good Jamie James James and in Dublin actually there's a better fight in Dublin yeah Jamie Conlon I've had Jamie and Michael Conlon, amateur and pro,

both sides of the border over the last X amount of years, and I can't believe I'm not going to be in Belfast for this fight. There's a real stewards inquiry going on. I say right, it's a good fight for himself, because Kevin Welsh is boxing. He's not a bad kid. He can punch as well. But he's hitable.

So you tend to think if you're hitable, if there's a target for Conlon to zoning on, he's very accurate with his work. It's funny with Michael Conlin, because he's so talented. You know this, he's just crazy talent. And I think he's never won a world title. I think he might never win a world title,

which I imagine to us he's never going to than he is, to be honest. What wait is it on Friday? Featherweights. Feather, wow. Yeah, so. There's no way you could ever go up to Superfeather. Is there for a Belfar. Oh, I'm just saying, Barry.

But I think he thinks he's stronger of featherweight. So, I mean, it's an option, though, it really is, isn't it? But, I mean, what an option that is? What, I mean, what an old. fashion, unbelievable fight. Michael Conlon, three or four pounds above his weight, fighting Anthony the Apache

Cucatian. He's been recently. If you fights a super feather. I thought that one that I did on Channel 5 when I was in Dublin recently with Michael, I thought that was a super feather. No, that was... Against Jack Bateson.

No, I think that was feather. Fair, okay. You might be right, Steve. You might be right. I thought it was for some sort of international. I'm pretty sure this one's a featherweight because I think he's targeting the feathery division,

which is... I mean, you got a... You got Espinosa, who's like six foot one. Yeah. I can punch him like to have a war. You've got Brandon figure out. There's no small guys in there, there, there, there. But just, I mean, you know, you talk about, John O Carol.

John O. Carroll. I see, I'll do it probably. Not John O'Little, Carol. You've just sort of gone Guy Ritchie on me during this pod, and everyone's got a nickname, big, fat, short, little. You know, you're not really caring. I mean, you know, you get us in trouble with HR. You're carrying like this, son.

I've been working on London all days, Yeah, that's what it is. Everyone's, oh, I'm bound up, bow, oh, you see big bunsey, oh, exactly, yeah. That's just the cab drivers. So Barry, so that's on Friday night, but that's not even the, that's only the horses dovers of your weekend. I would like to say, though, that I do think,

even though it can, if Welsh can punch, and we'll come and have a go, I do think that Conlon will do a good job in him. I don't think he has to go to distance, but I think you're boxing quite well, and then tags the world's hard shot, but I think he's going to struggle to get over the line there. He looked good against him.

Jack Bateson. I know that, you know, whatever you want, Bateson should have been smaller. Jack's a good fighter. But he did it. He looked really strong that night in Dublin. And sharp, I think that's the thing. Sharp, yes, a good line. But to think that amount of that ability might never win a world title

is kind of thing. Just someone's crazy, yeah. Saturday night, Copper Box. British middleweight title fight. George Liddard, who I saw win the title, British middleweight title, your corner, an unbelievable. A fan, really great nuggets. It's Tyler Denny, former champion. Last time I saw him was losing

to Hamja Chiras and losing I was quite shocked by how he lost there. I'm not saying I fancy he beat Hamji Shias but he was on a good run Tyler. I think it's a really good fight this on Saturday night. He got caught in the temple didn't he against Shias? He was always going to struggle against Shias because of the size because of the height. I think with Tyler Denny

people pick him because he can't punch because he's not a big puncher. I'll say he can't punch he's not a big puncher at all. Well qualified. So people then think he can't hurt me so he can't beat me. But what he does is superpower and he doesn't look... He's not awkward

and he has those... He has those... His knees almost come in. A bit like Nigel Ben used to do. He reminds you a lot of him not Jimben. Just like Nigel Ben. Without the power, he rolls into his shots.

It looks like he's got no balance, but he has. He drags you into his fight. Yeah. All these good box is he's boxed, like the prospects who he's beaten on the way up to win in the European's heart, by the way.

European champion, by the way. He's unbelievable. But I mean, like, he drags you early. By round three, you're in his war. You're fine. His pace. Yeah.

and people think and fitness is a funny thing fitness and conditioning are two different things so getting fit for the fight you train hard if you want to fight throw a million punches around

you train like a lunatic and if you're a technical boxer you train you getting your legs strong so you can dance around and move all the time that's fine and I tell people about condition is important

because I used to run and my train used to follow me in the car Ronnie Rush God bless you soul lovely guy but he used to beep the horn for sprints and all that stuff but my ex-girlfriend

was a dancer she used to come with us sometimes And every one again, she'd get out and do like a quarter of a mile. We'd like a six mile run. She'd a quarter mile, she'd get out and run. And they were the hardest path, because she ran slower than me. And I had to run at her pace. So when Ronnie's people in the horn for sprints and ease up,

it'd drive me mad, I'm thinking, oh, that's my car, first of all. But I could cope with that. I could run it. As hard as running it is, you're running up, it's your pace. But when you have to run at a pace, even though it's slower than your pace, it's not your pace. It's not your breathing. It's not your pace, yeah.

It's not your pattern. Oh, mate, that was the hardest part of it. And the best path. And that's what Tyler did he does to fight us. He makes you fight at his pace, whatever the pace that is. So you might fight for a hard fight.

He might slow you down. But what he does? He makes it physical and makes it rough. So in all that technical set that you got, which, by the way, Liddhar has plenty. He's a beautiful boxer and he's strong and he punches his hand

and he got all the ingredients to be a really top-class fighter. It's a baby as well. And I think he'll win, by the way, George Liddard. But if he can, keep Denny away early and then he gets close to him

and makes him fight at his pace he has to dog it out and fight for his life metaphors, not reality, but I mean, yeah, he's forced to fight at a pace. Then we've got a real fight. That he doesn't want to, yeah, and then then, because Denny's a good fight

just going to go beat by Hamza Shiraz. It doesn't mean he's a... No, no, that Hamza Shiraz defeat. He could caught in the temple early. He could call it never recovered. Now, that's on Saturday night in the east end. Just quickly, Steve, right.

Just quickly, there's two other fights really good on there. Jimmy Seines are a really, really hard fight. And I just say that. And Viziole. Viziole.

They're three, three really good match fights there. They're all the A side they're all favours to win. But they all got to show something. They all got to show something. And right as well, because otherwise it's a sort of ridiculous

throwback fight to those nights when Mickey Duff put in a against the guy that was category F or category D. So it's good that local fighters, local enough, Essex and East London, are fighting in East London, and they all got decent fights. Because in all fairness, Jimmy Sains is paying public. They're not going to pay to have him blow through someone who's come over from Latvue's last fight was at Welterweight. It's not good for business.

Same with Viziole. You're not in the story here. You're here for the stories? I am, and I don't want to be... It's not like Tony Sims to batter me. But the Sains and... Liddard are the same weight. Yeah.

The same camp, same trainer, same team. I know. Great, great to learn off each other. But one's British champion, was English champion. I know. Both went on the same night. I think Sains is ready to move up. Oh, it's interesting.

But Lidad's end. They won't fight each other for now. But what would you do if Lidad's success, your friend, your gym mate, is holding back your career? You're not on purpose. You can't fight each. You can't fight each other.

They can't train you both. But you're going, well, do I over... And will they let Jimmy Sains box for the European title? Just say he's ready. Don't think he is yet. Just say he's ready. Can I step over you? Will this out go, hang on a minute.

I just want the British. I want to fight for the European title. Well, relinquish the British title then. But I won the British title outright. And so all of a sudden, then, where the Jimmy Sains go with that? It's an interesting thing, I think. And I think you... You turn it into soap up about?

Oh, mate, I am. I'm really, really stirring the pot, you know? No, I was... I stir in the pot when he won the time. Saito talking to him afterwards saying, what about, you know, would you have to, you know, if you had to fight Jimmy, what would you do? He said, oh, he's my mate, he's my teammate. So he wouldn't be drawn.

Jimmy Sains won't be drawn on it. Tony won't be drawn on it. Eddie won't be drawn on it. But one day, someone will be drawn on it. It's not a bad problem to have, though, is it? Oh, it's a great problem with that. So Barry, we mentioned there Hamza Chiras. Now, two men are fighting for the world title, I think, in Florida, who both fought

Hamza Shierrez. One was stopped by him and one got a draw with him in a world title defence, which even Hamza knowledge is kind of kind to Hamza. Carlos Adama is WBC champion Defending his title against Ammo Williams Austin Amma Williams Who we saw in that 5V5 Which seems like distant history

It's like way back in the sands of time There it is, there's the Thrull in Manila There's the Rumble in the jungle There's 5V5 in Riyadh It seems like it belongs back You know what I'm saying I'm ripping the proverbial out of it I like Amma Williams

against Carlos Adamas I like Ammo Williams I also think Carlos Adamins is a much better fighter than he's ever ever given credit for The thing with the damage, he does nothing, like, outstandingly great, but he's solid. He keeps his shape really well. He rolls in the distance. He hasn't got the fastest of feet, but he's strong, punches out, and his hand speed is decent as well.

And I think he stops... Ammo? I do, yeah. I think the thing with ammo, you got really fast hands. He got a bit of power, and his feet are fast, but he lifts his chin every time he throws a shot. See, when you've got someone who got really fast... And we see this, Amir Khan, it was one of the fastest boxes who ever lived.

Not the fastest, but one of them, four people go mad. But because you've got speed, you just throw it abandoned. And if you get whatever speak up all the time. Could you do? No one can't cope with it. But then sometimes when you get a, like people say, timing beats speed.

Timing beats blind speed, like Amia can. It doesn't beat thoughtful speed. Like Maldrick Taylor's speed or showing Mosley's speed. or Leonard's speed or... Or... Well, I was thinking of Mani Pakiar speed because Mani Paki would throw his hands

lightning fast but move his feet after. Yeah, of course, yeah. Not going on out in the same line. So Ammo throws fast combinations with power but then, because usually at a certain level they don't do anything to react. But they'd just step up the levels, they do. And his chin's always high.

And with someone like Adamas who stays nice and low, she's physically really bull strong and we'll throw that shot over the top, I think it's a recipe for the same. Certainly assault board coming in that ammo is. You might get caught, you know, is the right hand over the top. Is Amos also on the zone?

Yes. Okay, well, I've got to be honest with you, if you have got that channel, that service, I think that could be the fight at a weekend. Something about Amo Williams and Carlos Adams. I think that could be... Williams is a good fighter. You look at him and go,

oh, Shilaz, they'll beat him up and not quite beat him. No, no, it was... It was a proper fight at all, yeah. But when you got some of Shias, so big and structured. It's always going to be hard to break through, in it? I mean, you haven't got the physical strength like Adamas has, and he's more difficult.

So he's a good fight. He's learned as well, I think, a little bit more. But still, he makes those fundamental mistakes. Like a lot of punches, and a lot of people who are brilliant at one thing, like super fast hands or loads of power. Sometimes they don't learn the other stuff because they never had to. They never had to worry about it. That's all.

That's all. You might prove me wrong, by the way. No, no, listen. I fancy Adama's in it, but only slightly. and maybe not as strong as you do. Barry, listen, it's been a delight and a pleasure talking to you. I didn't get to drink Guinness in your company.

Can I mention one thing for aigo? You can mention it what you like, Bail. On Saturday in the States. Yeah. Gabriel Fandora? Yeah. Gabriela Fendora, one, Sebastian Fodor's sister. Yeah.

We really like Gabriel Fendora. He was the youngest unified champion. So you have flyweight. It's a flyweight superfly. She, and I tell this to everyone, any boxes watch it. If you're tall and you've got long limbs, you watch her she fights.

Yeah. That's all I've got to say. You watch what she fights because she punches long before she moves her feet in. And some of the, I can't think he had she what than doing on Saturday.

He was sort of like stepping in with the jab and then too short with his left tank because he's a South Pole and that allow Jazz Ziggas Dickens to fire back with him. But she gets you on the end of the shots.

I'm a massive fan of her. Yeah, she's really good to watch her. And it's good that you brought her out because I do have a note here to mention. her because also to mention that in the last seven days, Michaela Meyer, one of the only remaining big names inside the world of female boxing, did a deal with MVP.

So she's now with MVP, Michaela Mayer. So that would leave Fondora as one of the few fighters, Katie Taylor and Fondora, and obviously Carra Shields, who runs their own life. There are very few people not with MVP. That new addition, the Michaela Mayer to MVP was a big addition. Of course, MVP of a show, Olympia on April the 5th, a massive show with four British, four more title fights involving five different women.

Barry, it's been an absolute pleasure. Hang on there. There's more. There's more. I brought my assistant with me today, Paddy. Or Padragg, as we call it. Yeah, yeah. And then I told him about four fights on a row. Go on. Who's he found? Lacey, Kessler, Hopkins, Jones. Yeah, yeah.

Who was that? No, and I said, no. My mate, Joe. Joe, Joe, Caz. Joe's got that one sequence, which is unbelievable. Frotcher's got a couple of sequences. I told you, it's going to drive you, man. It's going to drive Paddy Mad.

You're going to be doing it. That's a great sequence there. And I never ever bought into Hopkins was passed it. He went on a winner world title. I never ever bought in Jones was past it, by the way. No, he was. No, no. I did.

He was. He wasn't the Jones. He was still a good fight. He was going to be able to. But he wasn't the peak one. No, he was going to have that. on the peak one. That's an interesting show for a quiet month when we were rained off.

We could do 10 rounds of peak. Who was peak? When was peak? Who was peak? So we could do Roy Jones peak. We've got six minutes. We could do... Roy Jones. Lennox Lewis Peak. The injurious one, of course, is Arlie and Tyson Pete. What was Roy Jones his best weight? That's the hardest question.

Well, judging by the way... Where's his best wins? I tell him his best weight. He's Tony's his best win at the middleweight. I tell you what his best weight. I don't know. And judging by the guy that he beat... Judging by the guy that he beat at this weight, handled some of the best around at that time. His best weight, undoubtedly, was the night

he weighed about 15 stone and beat John Ruiz. Because I tell you what? Because Ruiz has given everybody all the heavy weights. He had about 500 rounds of Evander Holyfield. Evander Holyfield gave Lennox Lewis Kittans, nearly beat him twice. As they say, listen, Barry's been a pleasure and I'd like, we'll do peak v. Peak one day.

I like the idea of peak v. Peak. That's really... Because equally, as Joe has often... So, as Joe occasionally has said, and he doesn't do it all the time, but that may not have been me at my best way and at my piece, by the way. I know, I know, that's true. I mean, normally, I got to say, I love Joe, and I mention him every somebody. We saw it. We had that loving down in Cardiff that time.

I don't think we ever seen the best of Joe Kowazaki. Oh, crazy is that? No, that is. I know, sure. I don't think we did. That's Barry Jones finishing up where I don't think we've ever seen the best of Joe Kowzaki. Don't worry, Joe Kowzaki might be coming back. You never know.

He could be on an undercard. Could be Karlfords against Lennox Lewis. Listen, if Lennox Lewis is fighting LeVander Holyfield on the Mani Pachiel, Floyd May River undercard, then why can't Joe Kelsaki fight Carl Frotch on that undercard? Barry, enough stupidity, enough lunacy, absolute pleasure and a delight. Brilliant insight from a fight in Dublin.

It's just about to get really, really busy. Heavyweight after heavyweight after heavy weight after heavy weight, successive weekends of fights going from here, reaching forward to an incredible night in theory in the shadow of the pyramid. Yeah, I'm not sure it'll happen either, but maybe it will. Barry Jones has been Barry Jones. I've been Steve Bunce, and this has been Five Live boxing.

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