5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - AJ & Josh Warrington look to America

Episode Date: February 11, 2019

With confirmation that Anthony Joshua will fight Jarrell Miller in the States not far away, Eddie Hearn joins the podcast to talk about a frustrating period for the WBA, IBF and WBO champion since beating Alexander Povetkin last September. Mike and Steve discuss the difference in how Joshua has conducted his career in comparison with Great Britain's previous Olympic super heavyweight gold medallist Audley Harrison. Then, Josh Warrington calls in to talk about his upcoming fight with Kid Galahad, the change in his status since beating Carl Frampton, and his hopes for the rest of the year.

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That's pockethose.com slash podcast for your two free gifts with purchase. Pockethose.com slash POD C-A-S-T. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Five Live Boxing. And thanks for being with us again on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunt. And any time now, Steve, the heavyweight landscape will become clearer. Oh yes, the weight is over. Wilder and Fury, and the worst kept secret in boxing.

Joshua against Baby Miller in New York. They look like they are set. Nearly confirmed, the camps are set up. The heavyweights baby are back in business. Coming up shortly, we're here from Eddie Hearn on the move to go stateside with Anthony Joshua. And for the first time in 2019, we're joined by one of the heroes of 2018. Josh Warrington joins us to elaborate on his plans for. the coming months. But first of all, Steve, it's looking like

Jarrell Big Baby Miller from Brooklyn unbeaten in 23 fights against Anthony Joshua in the early pass of June. We're going to hear more details from Eddie Hearn very shortly, but some fans voicing disappointment, displeasure at the prospect of having to go to New York thinking that maybe April the 13th at Wembley Stadium would have been another great Joshua domestic night. Well, it might have been a great domestic night, but how did he thought Dillian White then like we expected and like we were

kind of promise. The same people that are moaning would be moaning that it's Dillian White. Why isn't he fighting that dangerous American, Gerald Miller? Mike, that's the way it works. You cannot please everybody. Gerald Big Baby Miller, okay, is a guy that will help sell a fight in a city that is not convinced about Joshua. We know that, Mike. That's a fact. And Miller will do his bit. And I don't know, listen and a read of some of Miller's things. And for a start, I just thought he had a bit of a big mouth. I'd bumped into him at the when you were out paying homies to the UFC,

you were doing Connor McGregor, and anybody that, anybody that even into Dublin was getting interviewed by you. I was actually listening and talked. I had a chat with Baby Miller then. He was a white pain in the jacksie. What he wasn't going to do to people? Mike, they should have all retired.

Anyway, since then, he's had plenty of wins, knock people over, perfectly okay. But he actually says some half-decent things, Mike. And one of the sensible things he said last week before the deal was in place. He was talking about, they're trying to manoeuvre out. They don't want to fight me.

They don't want to fight me. They're trying to get out of it. But there's a lovely line he says, he says, listen. He says, I'm a fighter. People think I'm 315 pounds. He's actually about 317, so he's not that much shorter. He said, and I talk smack. He said, well, I'm a lovable guy and I eat cheeseburgers.

Hey, I like him. People are going to love him. And in terms of the threat he poses, Steve, limited threat, I mean, I would say class-wise, he belongs in that run below the top three of Anthony Joshua, Deonté Wilder, Tyson Fury. he's down amongst Dillian White and that kind of class. I think he is down with Dillian, maybe Dillian's slightly in front of him, but I think he's, I think he can bang, Mike.

I know he's hit plenty of guys on the chin and other people have hit on the chin, but I think he can bang. He can be not necessarily outmaneuble, but he can be outfought. You know, people can outthink him, not necessarily win. But so will Joshua, a lot depends really, Mike. Does Joshua get sucked into the Big Apple, the Madison Square Garden vibe, the bit of history at Madison Square Garden or Barclay Centre, wherever it takes place.

We think it's going to be in New York, Madison Square Garden. Does he get sucked in, Mike? Does he buy into it? And does he go out to try and impress? Because he can't beat this guy like he beat Parker. They boo at Madison Square Garden, Mike. They booed, if you remember rightly. Van Amir Klitsko and he defended his tight-d against Salta Mibingamov.

Dreadful fight, and they booed. And wait for it. There was only Russians and Ukrainians in the stadium. And they booed their two national idols. Trust me, they'll boo Joshua. If he's safety first in the first round, they'll boo in one round. You've heard them booing Madison Square Garden, Mike.

They booed Felix Trinidad against Bernard Hopkins after four rounds because Trinidad didn't hit him on the chin. And what's more? That was after 9-11 and everyone was crying tears earlier on when Don King gave the fire department a brand new truck and had 100 firefighters at ringside crying their eyes out. Five rounds earlier, all sympathy, all emotion was out of the window. They were booing the two guys in the ring.

That's a savage venue. So Joshua will be forced to perform. If he's false to perform, if he's forced to perform, if he's forced to take risk, that gives Miller his big chance. Maybe some might argue he's only chance. Miller's knocking him out-box Joshua over 12 rounds, as he might. Come on. And this is the plan that we knew would be inevitable

for Anthony Joshua at some stage to go stateside. We weren't sure at what stage in his career, and there will be disappointment online if and when it is finally announced, and we expect an announcement sometime this week. Indeed, I know you listen to this at different points during the week, so the fight might even have been confirmed by the time you come to listen to this and the frustration is born of talks of Anthony Joshua facing Deonti Wilder for a long time before Wilder

went in the ring in December against Tyson Fury then the attention was diverted to Dillian White would it be a rematch Joshua versus White on April the 13th at Wembley Stadium it's been frustrating for fans it's been frustrating for the fighters and for promoter Eddie Hearn who's been telling me how it's been a long road to get not very far I would say the last three or four months have been extremely frustrated but actually like in a in a sick way quite exciting because there are some people doubt in Anthony you know in my opinion wrongfully but you've gone from 100% backpatters to I

don't know 80% backpatters and those people saying oh well maybe don't want to take the real fights we know and you're in that group of we might because you know Anthony as well as most that he wants the big fights and he will have those big fights. But right now, I feel as though this is maybe the kind of moment that he needs in his career just to keep him motivated, keep him switched on and not think that he's cracked it and not think that he can walk on water and there are some bumps in the road because until this moment everything's been so smooth. You know, no disruptions, every deal was straightforward to make, but he's got to a level now

where it becomes a lot more difficult. So it's been frustrating, but also we've seen a heavyweight division explode beneath us where he is still top of the tree. Whether you like it or not, he is. But now he has others clicking at his heels, which he didn't have before. And from what I hear as well,

he was blown away by the experience of watching Rocky Fielding against Canelo Alvarez at one of the hallowed arenas, not just for heavyweight boxing, but for the world boxing sport. To be honest, so was I. I mean, I've been to Madison's, Square Garden before and I've been for boxing but I haven't been since I've been promoting

fights and I walked out that night and I was I was blown away and I thought you wait till AJ gets it and he walked out and he was like this is incredible if you give him the choice a hundred times out of a hundred he still chooses the UK you know he still chooses Wembley this is his lion's den but if it means for one time only taking that lion's den to Manhattan and to New York for the Madison Square Garden. That is a major statement in terms of his global appeal. We're not done yet. It's likely. It's definitely not certain, but part of it is not just about his AJ fighting Miller. I want to create a weekend for fight fans, British fight fans, on a card that will be stacked with big British names fighting for world titles, career

defining fights and just create that mad atmosphere that we got with the lights of Ricky Hatton. and, you know, AJ's fan base is different to Ricky Hatton's fan base, but this is New York in the summer. This is a trip for you. The boys, the family, the wife, friends. And that's AJ's pulling power. But we want to create something really special so that we take that Lions Den with us

that he's created here in the UK. If it works at Madison Square Garden, and the kind of weekend you're talking about, suggesting he might not want to come back to the UK, but would that bring a Deonté Wilder fight Any closer? Well, we have to do what we have to do to become undisputed. So if that's Wilder, if that's Fury,

you know, in the talks with Wilder since the Fury fight, we've even presented the numbers for a US fight. It got to that stage. And when people talk about, oh, you said you didn't want to go to America and now you're fighting in America, I'm talking about the Deontay Wilder fight. Anthony felt that with what he built in the UK, with how the fans are supporting him,

If he got that defining fight, the first one should be in the UK. But it comes to a point where if this guy will not come, does Anthony have to go to Wilder's backyard to try and win that final belt? Probably. But maybe Fury wins. If Fury wins, Fury against Joshua is 100% a UK fight. I believe Fury does want the Joshua fight. I'm not so sure about Wilder.

Like me and Fury talk, Wilder has just gone missing and his team for literally two months. There has been no desire to even entertain an AJ fire. It's frustrating. All these different dynamics, but we've just got to be in control of what we're doing, and he's going to go up there and completely turn the US marketplace on its head for boxing because they're going to see a real star. Would you accept that after December the 1st, Eddie, that Wilder and Fury are bigger names in the States at the moment? Than Joshua?

Yeah, probably. I think that Joshua has benefited in the States the same. way they've benefited in the UK. What Wilder did was he just bolted himself onto AJ and he just sort of fantasised about him on Instagram for six months and it worked because people in Britain suddenly became aware of who Deonté Wilder was and I guess AJ benefited in the States from his name being mentioned non-stopping the buildup to Fury Wilder so you know I think that AJ definitely needs to improve his profile in the States and this is an obvious move but knowing how he fights, knowing how he looks and knowing how he behaves,

anti-Joshiro is going to be a complete superstar in America. So you will see these fights, whether you have to wait six months, 12 months, you will see them. Because in my opinion, he's going to beat everybody in the division, and that's what he wants to do. And there has been that element of sort of us and them, you know. And I see it with Canello, obviously working with him now as well, where it seems like the industry wants him to fail. you know i'm not talking about fans i'm talking about promoters managers networks and i feel that with age go of negotiation details and yeah and i know that fighters are talking or promoters and networks talking to each other to try and stop fights from happening this is the politics of boxing

and it's not new it's nothing new but we've probably never represented anyone the size of joshua before so you know you see almost like wilder in theory powed up in the first fight to say yeah we're here and we're fighting and don't worry about joshua but you can't can't ignore him because he's still the biggest star in the division, but the gap is certainly shortening. And we welcome that. We welcome that. But he's focused, you know, he's training, he's ready and he's excited as well. You know, I've told him about our plans in terms of that whole fight night, that whole British boxing experience in New York. And he's excited, who are you going to put on? Can we do this fight, that fight? And, you know, he's excited as well.

Probably a little bit, I mean, I think Rob McCracken will probably be a little bit nervous. You know, he's that kind of individual where people say, oh, you know, he should beat Jarrell Miller. Yeah, he should. But it's a different environment. Now you're fighting a New Yorker in New York. You're fighting in a different ring, a different arena, with different commissions, with different handraps, with different times. That's one of the reasons Ben Davison got Freddie Roach involved to deal with commissions and the different regulations. Rob McCracken has the experience to not have to bring anyone in.

But, you know, what Ben did was probably right in that respect. Tyson had boxed in the US before Joshua hasn't so it is a new experience and it will be a little bit edgy but that kind of adds to the fun as well and whether AJ realizes it now or not one day if this happens

it will say anti-Joshua Jurel Miller Madison Square Garden New York that's about legacy as well legacy is about winning belts it's about being the best you can be but it's also about creating these incredible iconic moments and Joshua in New York is an iconic moment so if that's what we have to do next

that's what it'll be and in this graft and search to win the undisputed title is it being commercially naive eddice suggested if you take a hit on the purse you get back in what you make for the brand in becoming the first and only ever heavyweight to own all of the four recognized world title belts yes and we feel like we've done that to be honest with you know we're at a point now in the negotiations where we never you know Joshua never really wanted to be commercially in my opinion

knowing the numbers we shouldn't really be but you know in the likes of Tyson Fury where a 6040 split has been offered to a fighter with no belt in a voluntary defence this is you know this is this is a fair offer but it's not even being entertained

so if Fury Wilder have a classic if it does massive numbers in America their fight. Maybe one of them, maybe we accept 50-50 for that final belt. But no one's flip reversing that to the other guys. No one's saying to Tyson Fury, do you believe you can beat Joshua?

So why wouldn't you take 40% and then beat the biggest star in world boxing? Because you're going to beat him so easy, aren't you? You know, everyone's saying why doesn't Joshua do this? Do you know how many offers other people have made Anthony Joshua to fight them? Zero. It's been me picking up the phone.

It's been me sending emails. It's been me making the offers to everybody. No offers to us coming here. Why don't you say to Wilder or Fury or why? Can you beat Joshua? If you beat Joshua, you are the biggest star in world boxing. So how much do you really believe it?

No one's asking them these questions. These guys are quick to criticise AJ without looking at the facts. AJ will do what he always does. Keep himself to himself, believe in himself, work as hard as he possibly can, and go out there and beat everybody. and one for you personally to finish with Eddie

all these air miles you're clocking up any danger that you're spreading yourself too thinly across two huge markets about five markets I mean we obviously launched matron boxing USA with 16 shows we launched matron boxing Italy with eight shows in Italy

matron boxing Germany with eight shows in Germany we're about to announce Spain as well so we're going to be doing about 70 shows a year so in answer to your question absolutely I am spread incredibly thin, but unfortunately not thin yet. And when you talk about legacy, I have my own legacy that I want to create selfishly, and that is to create a promotional company that is unrivaled in the sport of boxing and combat sports

and has never ever been delivered before, particularly by a UK company. The only reason I'm able to do this and expand the business as I am is because of the British fight fans because they showed up at Wembley for Frochgroves, for Joshua of Clitchco for Joshua Pavecquin. They came down to Millennium Stadium for Joshua against Parker Joshua against Taken and that is what has given our company the opportunity to

expand. It's not going to be easy and we may fall flat on our face in a few years but it'll be fun trying. Busy times for matchroom Steve and the focal point of course is Anthony Joshua and of the many points to take from that interview one word needs

he needs to build his profile in the United states. That's kind of a change of attack because that hasn't always been the case. Well, that's not kind of a change attack. That's a drastic reversal. That's completely not what he's been saying in the buildup to Fury and Wilder. And it's not what he said since Fury and Wilder, but it is the truth. He has said there. Basically, he's mildly echoed Bob Aram's controversial comments to you from a couple of weeks ago when Terence Crawford was over for the Emir Khan press conference announcement. He's just about echoed those thoughts. Because Bob wasn't being critical.

He may have got things wrong when he said he hasn't, Joshua hadn't thought anybody of note, but he wasn't being critical. He was telling the truth. At the moment in America, Joshua isn't the best known heavyweight. And that's basically what Eddie said. What he said was probably. He didn't answer your question with the question, which would have been nice. So he didn't actually say Joshua is probably less known in America than Wilder and Fury,

but he did say probably without the first bit. So that's fine. And he's absolutely right. And that's understandable. And he let something slip. You remember, when you interviewed him in December, Mike, he let something slip. It was really telling. He was critical of the figures and the attendance for Joshua and Wilder.

Do you remember? As was Michael Buffer the other day. Furian Wilder. Furian Wilde. Excuse me. For Fury and Wilde. He was critical. He said something quite interesting when you interviewed him in December, Mike.

He was critical of the figures for Furian Wilder. He was critical of the pay-per-view, and he was also critical of the attendance. Do you remember that? But what he did say was he let him. slip and he got that thing in his voice and you hear it all the way through that interview and it's when he's engaged. He said, but millions have watched it since because of course that last round has become an absolute necessary three minutes. There are dozens of versions of it in different places online with different bits of music attached to it. In different language, in different language.

I mean, you can literally, Mike, you could spend three hours of your life watching that 180 seconds and every single version you'll be slightly different from a different. different angle from someone's phone in the gods. You have no idea what's going on with the people hollering, screaming, standing up and urging him to get up. I did something yesterday, Mike, with some white collar boxes down in clapham at 12 rounds boxing. No word of a lie. I asked everyone in the room. There's about 100 people stayed. I was doing a little talk afterwards. I said, how many people watched that last round? And just about every hand went up. And then I said, put your other hand up if you were standing up and everybody put their other hands up. Mike, I had a, like, let's say

it was 85 people, 83 people were both hands up and were grinning ear to ear like idiots. Because that's the effect it had. So Eddie's aware of that. So millions and millions have watched it. And that's why I'm really pleased. Listen, when Eddie does honest, he does honest, doesn't he? And that was fantastic

10 minutes. And Eddie at Christmas time also had a dig at the pay-per-view numbers, 300,000 or so. But I was looking back, and Oscar de La Jolla, who became the pay-per-view king, had figures like that in his early pay-per-view day. So, you know, given what you would have to expect the rematch would generate. I think that's a very healthy number.

But listening to Eddie Hearn talking there towards the end of that interview, Steve, about the expansion of match room into various countries around the world, including the United States, got me to thinking about this machine that's behind Anthony Joshua, but very much with Anthony Joshua in control

because that interview with Eddie Hearn was at a press conference last week to announce Charlie Edwards' first world title defence, the brilliant flyweight after that great win at the end of last year, which kind of went under the radar because it was on the night of White and Chisora the rematch

and Warrington against Frampton just before Christmastime. But I do think that that machine that's behind Antony Joshua is a crucial part of the success. And I was thinking back as I was listening to Eddie Hearn both last week

and as the interview was just playing out a few moments ago, he is working for Anthony Joshua. He makes that clear and he made it clear on Thursday as well. And I was thinking back to Audley Harrison. Britain's previous Olympic super heavyweight champion, the gold medalists from Sydney in 2000. Maybe the worst prediction I've ever made in boxing, Steve, is coming away from Sydney in 2000.

I said that Audley Harrison would become Britain's richest ever sportsman. He's got the talent, he's got the articulate nature, and he's got this general character and personality and backstory that will make him a great sell to anybody and everybody in and beyond. boxing, but it didn't work. And I'm thinking about how astute Anthony Joshua and this young team around him, this media savvy, social media savvy

team around him, but also this match room that the machine that organizes and does all of the negotiations, a lot of the negotiations, organizes the press conferences, the big fight nights, the undercards, all of which Audley pretty much tried to

take on on his own. Mike, he did try, you know, Audley was doing everything, Mike. putting chairs out of his own press conferences. Aldly was arranging every single thing. Aldi tried to cut out everybody. Aldi got a guy in Jess Hardin as a great guy, but just didn't have experience promoting the type of fights

that Aldley was even having at the start. It's a miracle, if you don't mind me saying so. Aldley went as long as he did unbeaten. It's a miracle. Aldi made as much money as he did. So a miracle, Aldi remained at least a high profile staff for as long as he did, because he was doing all of it. He had no advice.

He's admitted since Aldi that he should have aligned himself with a promoter. He should have gone in with Frank Warren or should have gone him with Frank Maloney for those first three years. He has acknowledged that now that that was the flaw. Of course, what happened in that three years, that's when he lost the edge.

And that's when he lost the ability, not to make millions, but that's when he lost the ability to be the fighter that we all thought he would be when he got on the plane back from Sydney. And that's something that Joshua did learn for. Waldley's right.

Joshua's learned for my mistakes. And he's absolutely right. Josh could have gone on his own, Mike, with a couple of the lawyers and the hangers on and fixers that we're seeing popping up with all sorts of fighters these days. You know, we're seeing loads of them pop up on the scene, all of whom think they can go out and promote

and get TV deals, walk in. He could have done that, Josh. He had enough people whispering in his ear to go completely solo. But he wasn't. It was a toss-up between Frank Ron and a toss-up between match for him. Established people. He did the right thing, and he's now reaping wars. But he's also, as you pointed out there, and as Eddie mentioned,

Joshua said to me what fights can we put on, Ed? What fights can we put on? He's still calling the shots. But see, with Ordly Harris and Steve, even if he had linked up with Frank Warren or Eddie Hearn or even a great promoter in the United States and based himself over there, do you think it would have made any difference?

Was he a great amateur who just wasn't suited to the professional game? No, I think he could have been... Listen, I'm not saying... When you survived today against these three, Joshua Wilder Fury. Not any version of the elderly we saw, but I'm thinking there would have been a different version of an orderly. I'm thinking there would have been an oldly that finally had a hard 10-round fight

six years after turning pro instead of 18 months in, that he finally had tests. You know, Aldly was going backwards after 10 fights, Mike. So in that sense, I'm going to say this now, and I'm not joking,

we never got to see the Aldley that could have been, Mike. And I think a big 6-foot-6-inch Southpour who was nasty, who liked to knock people out, liked to hurt people with that big Southpour left hand. Had he developed and not fluctuated

and picked up the injuries, Jersey picked up because he was trying to cram his training and he just surrounded by yes men. I'm not saying he would have gone on to be a really good Vladimir of Vitali 15 years ago, 16 years ago, but I would have been a much better fighter than we ever got to see. It was a great missed opportunity, Steve, because that was a great time to turn professional in the heavyweight division because you see how the Klitsko brothers came to be so dominant. That could have been his pathway. And there aren't many issues that you and I disagree on over the years. but one is about whether he had the metal.

I don't want to use the word courage because I happen to think if you haven't been a professional boxer, haven't walked a mile in their shoes, then that's a term that can't be used. But I do think that there is a certain type of attitude approach to boxing that is very closely linked to courage, and there are two levels of it. Everybody will say, and they do say regularly,

that it takes great bravery to climb those steps. But I think there's a second level, Steve. Once you've climbed those steps, there's another level once the bell rings. And I don't think Audley Harrison could match that second level. He certainly had some disastrous nights in the ring when his collapse was horrible and predictable. But he also showed plenty of heart and guts.

I'm thinking about the Michael Sprott. The Michael Sprott, the win. I haven't been knocked spark out. For the European title. The European title. Wings in the last round. By the way, yeah. And there were certain fights when there was nothing wrong with anything to do with Aldley's

makeup. But I take it back again, mate. You know, before we get to your observations, which are absolutely spot on, I want to go back to the fighter that got on the plane back from Sydney. And I want to look at where he goes in Camp Nend and who he trains with and who he spars with and who he's surrounded by. And my gut feeling is that that fighter, the one we've never seen, okay, which sounds like a bit hairy fairy, that fighter, he's.

He's a good fighter. I still don't think we saw him, mate. I still don't think we saw him. Anyway, Big Oldly. Well, back to Big A.J. The problem says Mabelie on Reddit, and we asked for some responses on Reddit last week. Search for Reddit boxing Costello and Bunce

if you want to get involved again this week, and I'll repeat that at the end of the show. But last week we put out the requests, and Mabelie says that the problem, Steve Joshua has, is that he's just a bit safe and boring compared to Wilder and Fury. Seems mad to say it, given how successful he's been, but I don't want to see him laughing and joking

on the Graham Norton show, brackets, not even promoting a fight. I want to see him in action in the ring. Well, that'll happen quite soon. And great that he's on Graham Norton being watched by millions and millions, to be perfectly honest of you. And I assure you he's not safety first.

He did the sensible thing against Parker, boxed his ears off. He can be down. We've seen him survive against Clitchco. When he was out cold when he hit the floor, he woke up when he hit the floor. We've seen guts. some thunder from Joshua.

Don't confuse safety and boring with a lack of fire. Sometimes Robert McCracken, who mentioned loads of times there by Eddie Hearn, he insists on them boxing. He insists on them boxing. You're going to win this by boxing, you're full. If you've got to have a fight, you'll have a fight. He gets hit on the chin by Baby Miller in the third round and goes down, then win for a slug fest.

I'm telling you that now. And the only way you beat him, Mike, and we've seen his stoppage when he lost in the European Championships. He was on his feet like Bruno, not on the floor. That's the only way you beat him. Well, we're waiting for the heavyweight picture to be unscrambled. But last week, the purse bids for Josh Warrington's defense of the IBF featherweight title against Kid Galaad. Abdul Bari Awad, as he's known, was won by Warrington's promoter, Frank Warren.

And Josh joins us now. Thanks for joining us. Josh. Really appreciate you taking your time. No problem. It's good to speak to you, lads. How we both doing, okay? Yeah, very good, good, good, man. So as far as the Kid Galaad defense is concerned, Josh, what do you know? now in terms of date and venue how close are we to getting some kind of confirmation?

I believe it's going to fall with us within next couple of weeks no longer than that. I did hear that we're looking towards end of May but then across the purse beats got pushed back a little bit longer that might have all changed now

so I can't give you a lot of a day if I wanted to so we just wait but yeah, it's going to be May June time. Josh, I know that King Galaad, I'm going to use that name because in honour of Brendan Ingle,

I know that King Galead does rub people the wrong way. Have you ever by any chance sparred of him? Is he ever coming in the contact with him anywhere? Yeah, you know, he's funny. He's funny, Buncie. I boxed him twice as an amateur laughing that's made headlines of a few boxing forums and whatnot. But, you know,

when you're going through championships as an amateur, you're being school boys, during your ABAs, in seniors, boys' clubs, all that stuff. Once you get past your region, it seems that you go through each region as a team, so obviously we had the Yorkshers, and then, you know, you get through the Yorkshire,

it's Yorkshire versus Midlands, then Yorkshire Midlands versus... So I used to seem in championships a lot, and after boxing him, I've become quite a palli with him every time I've seen him at a show. And then I did do a bit of sparring with him, and, you know, his mom used to come to at Jamie, who were a real humble lad,

really well-spoken. And then, obviously, you lose contact and whatnot. And then I did see him again at the Boxing Writers Awards. 2014, he got the young boxer. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right, yeah.

And, yeah, he could come over and it would a little bit more chirpy, but it was still, it was still, you know, well-spoken. So that makes me think, what's happened in that few of years when he went missing with his, you know, with his suspension and whatnot? Where did this persona come from?

Where did this, like, personality come from? I think it's all false. Do you know what I think it's all false? You know, unless he's like moved to Bronx for two years and come back like, you know, Wallace get all the swag. I don't understand it, to be honest, we are poor. I think, I think, don't read too much into it, and they certainly haven't moved to the Bronx

because all the fighters live within about a 100 metre radius of each other in Newman Road in Sheffield. I think what it is, it's quite simple. It's an old and established Brendan, stroke Dominic, stroke John Ingle, Trick to try and get under the skin and inside the mind of men they might fight in one or two or three years' time. So can you give us a bit of detail, Josh, on how those two fights went? Yeah, I've boxed you on his own show.

It was quite a quite scrappy fight the first time round, if I remember rightly. What age, what weight are you talking about? I think around ages of 13, 14, 15, something like that, yeah. And then around on the north, well, 42, 46 kilos. Might be in a bit more than that. But then when I boxed him the second time in the junior beers, it was a lot more clean and clinical. I beat him, you know, hands down.

Really, really easy. I did a punch on me. And to say that he's the more awkward and the more evasive, it would have a complete boxing lesson the second time. Do you think psychologically that has any value for you

this time around? Not really. I mean, I've heard Dominic say after a few interviews, oh, he wants to get revenge, blah, blah, blah. But then I've heard bad a kid Galad when we're going to call him

and say, you know, oh, that was the amateur days we've changed since then. So I don't know what they're trying to think. You know, I'm just looking. at it is now we're professionals and and you know I'm not looking so much on that I'm just looking at

it's the next man in front you mentioned now kid Galahads or Barry's Abdul Barry Owad's banned in 2015 for a fight from 2014 and and served at well actually only served 18 months

he did get it dropped by by six months and still maintains his innocence maintains that his brother put something in his bottom is that something in his bottom Is that something that annoys you or infuriates you or you're not bothered about? No, I mean, it is where it is. I've still got to fight him, but I think I've made it clear over a couple of recent interviews I've done that it's chug cheating in any sports bad, but in boxing, you know, lighter on the line.

And that goes for anybody who cheated. It's not good, really, to be seen, to be allowed to go again, especially when you've been coloured for something like that. And, you know, the thing is, if you were granted the green card and you're allowed to box again, then you should be very, very grateful. And, you know, put your hands up, apologise. But just don't see no remorse from him. You know, I don't see that I'm sorry for what I've done.

He says, oh, he's like, so what? I did it. I got caught and I'm back. No, no. Actually, I just point something out. It's quite an interesting situation, his situation with you, Ken. and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, is that he's always maintained his innocence,

and if I'm not mistaken, that's rare, or he might be the only person that's ever had a ban reduced, who's never held his hands up. I think so. He's actually, his case is slightly different. The others have said, sure, I ate the meat, but I didn't know it was contaminated. Yeah, sure, that happened,

but I didn't know it was illegal to buy it over the counter. My understanding with him, Josh, and I could, I stand to be corrected by Mike, who knows his UKAD law, and history. But my understanding is that he got it reduced on appeal by by six months and never, and still has never ever

acknowledged guilt. Is that, is that, that's, I think is the case. Yeah. Bizarly. So, so, so, so, I'm not defending a guy that's served an 18-month drug ban. But my understanding is he has never, ever ever felt that there

is anything to be remorseful over or showing he sorry, because he, it's not a case of him, of him, being innocent. He's saying I had nothing to do of it whatsoever. Yeah, I don't believe that. I don't believe it. I don't, honestly. I don't believe it. It's just... All right, that's fair.

That's fair. You know, it's... When, before the Frampton fight, he turned up the open workout, and he was giving it some, you know, giving it the big end to Nicky Manor's, who's part of my team. Yeah. And, you know,

Nikki had pulled him up on that. And there were no, there were no denial about it. You know, he didn't say, look, it's all this and other. It was as always like, the face what he pulled, and the way he went about it was, admitting it without saying words, if that makes sense. Yeah, I understand what you mean. Again, he just looks as though he wants to have.

He wasn't so bothered about it. So, yeah, yeah. But, hey, he's the one there, he's one in front of me. And, you know, I've got to go about it, on I? And the one behind you is Carl Frampton, as you mentioned, Josh. Do you feel now, have you felt, in the six weeks or so, since then that you are finally starting to get some credit because I'll tell you what, I've just been listening to Carl Frampton's new podcast and possibly the greatest credit to you

and for you is coming from Frampton himself. He was talking about you as being a much tougher fight, a better fighter than Leo Sander-Cruz and all sorts of comments like that. Are you feeling that that kind of tide is turning? Because I know you and your dad were saying before the fight that, you know, you weren't getting your just desserts in terms of recognition. sure I do to be honest with you Mike and I listen to the

I listen to the same podcast and you know top man is Carl you know fair play to him to you know blow his hands up and and say so many so many things about you know the fight and myself to be fair

you know I would have thought maybe Lee might have come about with the same stuff but he seems to just push it under carpet and he'd make his own excuse for why he thought he won his night on May 19th but yeah Carl I think it just backed up a lot of things what people maybe were thinking

and what they saw he admitted that one of the strongest punches had been in with one of his toughest fights and when it's coming from a name like Carlos being in with like you said there with Leo Santa Cruz twice 24 rounds Santa Cruz never made it in

on him like I did but it's a funny one Mike you know if I find myself looking through social media and I'm used to seeing you know went to war against me or people giving me steak and saying I'm going to get exposed

this on the other and since the Thompson fight it's been old but You're missing it I am missing it I'm making it overwhelming to be honest with my phone I'm not used to all this praise and accolade I'm having to put his phone down and have five minutes on sofa

so yeah listen all the support is very much welcome and people are really starting to see what we're capable of doing he spoke about feeling soreness for days. He also, I thought, a really insightful quote was he said his wife, Christine, won't watch him again because that was so brutal.

Did it feel like that kind of fight to you? I've known this might sound a bit sick, Mike, but I absolutely enjoyed it. I loved it. I loved the, you know, the physicality of it, you know, the toe-to-toe, the teching blows and trading blows. And there were a little bit of everything I think the fight had. There would have times when we're boxing, we both land, We stood there, sort of and so.

And, yeah, it did feel physical, that's for sure. But it'd already been a long year for me, so, you know, to that's taken into account. But it sent me a personal message after the fight to congratulate me on the win. And one thing I did make sure is asked if his missus went all right, because I'd heard that his misses had broken down and that one-not side of the ring. And it's obviously, it's never nice to see, you know, your husband, the five of your kids, you know, getting punched about that.

That makes me question my missus because she... She wants to have concerns for me. She's getting closer and closer to the corner. She's going on a course for cuts. To be honest me, it takes a tough woman to go on to sit up and watch it. I mean, I couldn't watch any of my family members, especially, you know, if my miss his box, I don't think I'd be able to watch. your life. I know Billy Graham was, you know, was dipping in to camp at various points,

Josh, and he was in the dressing room on the night. And I was just reading in Boxing Monthly, which was out just a few days ago, how he said he's never been in a dressing room so relaxed as your dressing room. So what is it that goes through your mind then when you are right there just sometimes minutes away from what was the biggest occasion of your life? You know what, mate? He's funny. He's cheering. He's curious. over the last two fights. It's changed completely. And I don't know if it's because the magnitude of the fights,

I don't know if it's come with experience or, you know, I've matured to be, I'm a little bit older. I don't know what it is. That may be an accumulation of all three. But I will say in the last two fights, I've been in the Ellen Road one and the Frampton fight, is the most relaxed ever been. So normally, I'll take, for instance,

my final eliminator against Dennis Thiel and Lids Arena, October 2017 I'd have been sat in the changing rooms really relaxed having a good giggle and whatnot because we've got quite an entertaining team and outfit and everyone will have a laughing joke until it gets to around the last half an hour

the time when gloves get on and we start getting warmed up and then it gets really serious where you can cut the tension with an ice and then the last five minutes I'm not talking to anybody I'm planted on a stool

and I'm just away with my thoughts and then when it's time to walk to ring I get up, I bang my gloves, and that's it. I'm really, really switched on, focused. I get it ring, but I feel tense. I feel really, like, solid. Like, I've got a punch holes in walls and stuff like that. When the Selby fight came round, it wouldn't come into me.

I want feeling really pumped up, and I was a little bit worried to me in some bits, because I'm thinking, what's wrong with me? I'm not getting up for this. This don't feel right. But then the ring walk, I enjoyed it, and, you know, the first couple rounds that were, you know, warming the fire, and it obviously went the way it did.

when I winning the change was for Carl it was pretty much the same and I sat myself down with about 10 minutes to go you know the runners came in and they said right Josh you're looking about nine minutes to go to the ring nine minutes so I'd finish my warm up

I sat myself down and we just cut away with my thoughts but again normally the high rate would start pumping and I'd start getting all worked up to start getting tense but it won't come in and I thought no

this is this is my big fight biggest fight in my career what's going on but then I thought back to the cellar fight and realized it didn't happen then and you know what I think that's why the better performances are coming because I'm not going in there tensed up

I'm enjoying all the occasions like I was stood there when they announced the ringwalk and I looked over at Liam Cooper at Leeds United Captain I mean he was I think he were more nervous than me all tensed up checking his legs about

and I'm looking about and he's like I'll stood there I'm looking up to the crowd and I can see pockets of leads fans standing up and marching on together I can see you know Frampton fans was bowing me and giving me all sorts of stick.

But I've got a big smile on my face. You know, I'm enjoying it. And when I got into the ring, I kept thinking myself, right, we'll be going in a minute. We'll go in a minute. And as soon as everybody got out, I did what I normally do, giving my dad a little bit of a kiss on cheek,

say you have to pal. And then, you know, first bell went, and that's when I switched on. I think learning to, you know, get switched on at the right time and not being too tense before, fine. And it all comes with, like I said, a little bit of experience,

maturity and I think it's adding some of the performances. Yeah, learning to kind of ration the passion and to keep it for when it really matters. Most definitely. I mean, you know, like I said, previous fights had been getting worked up half an hour's going there. I'm burning up half an hour's energy. You know, and I'm always super fit. But also, it'll be taking me a couple of rounds to just relax my shoulders, you know, to let the shots flow naturally. Instead, it's I'm all tensed up and stiff and wanting to just and that I make sure the jab's really accurate, but not letting it flow.

And I think the last couple of fights, I've just letting myself slow, relax into it, and then, you know, pulling out performances like I have done. And as I said earlier, with all those comments from Carl Frampton, but elsewhere in boxing, your profile and the credibility around you now has skyrocketed. And look, I don't want to jump the gun and ignore Kid Galaad, but before we came to you, Josh,

we were talking about Anthony Joshua and how he's now going, state side to raise his profile over there. Beyond Kid Galaad, would you be looking at the United States and Oscar Valdez, a rematch against Carl Frampton? How do you see the rest of the year shaping up? Well, you know,

when you mentioned the stateside, that is someone what I definitely want to do. You know, I'd already mentioned it to when discussing the next fight with Frank. Obviously, I'd found out that, you know, the IVF were not going to give us an exemption for the

a unification party, which I were very disappointed about. We talked about maybe fighting Santa Cruz and then heard that his team wasn't really interested me, so that would have been a bit

disappointing too. So obviously we've gone down the route of defending the title. But, you know, unification fights, man, that's what, if I could have in my own way, that's what wants to be into now.

You know, Selby, Frampton, then on Sevales or Santa Cruz, even Gary Russell Jr., momentum is you know when you've got it in your stride it's a powerful thing

and I want to keep on going you know the big names the big occasions over over the stateside it's what like really gets me

excited the thought of it and I mean I've enjoyed the last two occasions massively but even more so there and I think you know

just to create the memories as well for my fans what I've followed me still thick and thin you know they think it'd be good for them to travel along the state side in the numbers.

I mean, I were there when Frampton, Box, Santa Cruz, and the second time, and I remember standing on one of bridges, watching all cars fans walking up and down the street, thinking, yeah, I could see myself over there, and I can see all them, like, being leads fans, and whoever else wants to follow us, you know, in casinos, chanting and cheering and getting a bit merry.

But, yeah, that's how I'd want to see how me here, mate. I'd want to defend against Kid and then hopefully go to stay aside for the end of year. Well, I for one, can't wait to be ringside, Josh. You produced two of the highlights of my career last year. So we look forward to seeing you at the press conference when the date and venue for Kid Galaad are confirmed. Thanks very much for your time.

It's a pleasure to talk to you again. Thanks, Big Josh. No worries, Stephen. I'll just quickly say, Mike, once again, apologies. Anytime anyone mentions your name, I can only think of like walking back to the change rooms and then seeing a 20 stone secure that fella pick you up and pull you out of where when you were trying to do the after fight interview

so apologies about that again. I tried to hear him on the chimb but I couldn't reach. No worries. Good to speak to you, lads. Sorry, so much, Josh. See you soon. Thanks. Yeah, believe it or not, Steve, he sent me a text the day after the fight full of remorse about not talking to me on the way. Because you were missing.

I was bundled out of the way by the security. But it was a superb performance, and he is. He seems to feel now finally getting that recognition. Well, it's really interesting. That comment he said about him being tense, and then for the two biggest fights of his life in front of, you know, 50-odd thousand people, fights that he was meant to lose,

suddenly he's not tense. That's a really interesting reversal of what generally happens. And he does get really tense and really aggressive and angry in the build-ups, Mike. You know, I had no idea that he'd turn that around on those two particular fights because he seemed when he came out in Leeds, he was hyped up. I suppose you can be hyped up, but not tens. You can just be hyped up.

You can't wait to get there. And that description there of being at the edge of that tunnel, looking out, okay, following in the footsteps of some of the finest British fighters, some of the best fighters in the world, and seeing into that really steep banked arena that the MEN is, far too steep, I'm going to quite scary, and seeing pockets of Lees fans, and hearing the abuse from the Belfast fans,

he's lived every second. That's part of the visualization process that he uses, Mike. He's not only lived the walk in his mind beforehand. He's lived the walk since in his mind. And he produced a performance that was necessary on the night. And I get the sense listening to Carl Frampton on his podcast, how not so much regrets, but how he got it wrong. And he was saying that in those early stages,

when he was hurt, he said he maybe should have taken a knee and loosed around. 10-8 but come back fresh rather than lose it 10-9 and having taken much more punishment in the round. And that made me think about Tyson Fury and there's just so much to admire about Fury inside

and outside the ring. In the build-up to the fight against Wilder, he was asked about tactics and the way that Wilder fights are you going to stand off, are you going to go to him? And he said, I'll adapt on the night. And there was this wonderful phrase. He says, with my opponents, I'll fight when he

wants to box. I'll box when he wants to fight. And on the night, Carl Frampton got that wrong. Yeah, Carl Frampton did get it wrong on the night and it was too late to correct it because at that point they had such a wearying three or four opening rounds, savage opening, opening rounds and Warrington got it all right. That's the way it worked. Hey, look what happened to Carl Frampton against Leo Centacruz. Leo Centacruz got it wrong in the first fight. Carl got it right and in the second fight it was a reversal. Carl got it wrong which he's admitted to and Leo Santa Cruz got it

right on the night. It happens. Who knows what happened in a second fight between Frampton and Warrington? Who knows? Because Carl Frampton can box. Don't worry about that. Give Carl Frampton a start. He can box. Glad, delighted, no excuses. I don't like fighters making excuses, Mike. More from Reddit, Steve. This from Kaiser Clark. Bunts went off on the US telecaster, laughing at Teofamo's home run celebration last week, talking

about the highly touted prospect Teofamo Lopez. I got really upset, says Kaiser Clark, and didn't agree. I then re-watched it. on my ESPN Plus app and our telecasters were very respectful but I saw Bunce's Twitter feed on the subject and there it was on video pretty awful. We have a different

telecaster group here in the United States and it's top draw. The Box Nation feed had the telecasters for the undercards covering the main fight and there was a big difference. It's called international fees. So the three people working on the international feed which goes to Australia which goes to New Zealand which goes out to be in sports

in the Middle East Canada that that feed was three, and three season professionals, Mike. It wasn't like some guy they got off the street. Three season professionals, not three from the canteen, and it's one of them who still is named as. I just can't be, I can't be bothered to find his name. He's the one that laugh, thought it was funny, what it was funny.

I tell what, it's backfired a little bit on Lopez, some real big hitters in America, real big hitters in America have come out and highlighted that piece of footage. And I tell what, as I said to him, Mike, if I'd have done that on BT, if I'd have done that on 5 live and I would have expected at least my knuckles wrapped.

I wouldn't have been at all surprised to find myself bounced from the next fight for laughing at for celebrating what that announcer celebrated. Thank you to Kaiser Clark who goes on to say he's a big fan of British boxing here in the cold state of Minnesota, USA.

Thank you both for keeping me abreast. You make me come off like an expert here in the United States, he says. So get in touch with us again. Join the discussion on Reddit boxing, Costello and Bunce. Also email address as usual Costello on Bunce at BBC.co.com. Thank you for all of your responses on Twitter and on the iTunes review page.

We're back next week with a full preview of James DeGale against Chris Eubank. I'm heading to their respective gyms this week to get an interview with each of them. That will be part of our preview program next week. And why don't you, as I say, join a discussion on Reddit boxing Costello on Bunce. Give us your thoughts on who you think will win between DeGale and Eubank, how the fight will go. and we'll include those in our special preview on 5 Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce next week. Let's get ready to boxing.

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