5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Billy Joe's back, Deontay's underrated and Josh Taylor: world champion?

Episode Date: May 13, 2019

Former super middleweight champion George Groves joins the podcast to talk about the upcoming fights this weekend, including Billy Joe Saunders v Shefat Isufi for the WBO super middleweight world title, Deontay Wilder's return to the ring against former Anthony Joshua opponent Dominic Breazeale, and his former training mate Josh Taylor's bid for a world title in the semi final of the World Boxing Super Series against Ivan Baranchyk in Glasgow.

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In fact, we had such a good time talking to George that we ended up recording enough for two podcasts. what you're about to hear is George, Steve and myself talking about Billy Joe Saunders, Josh Taylor, Deontay Wilder and much more. Then on Tuesday we'll put up our conversation with George focusing on his career as a bonus podcast. Thanks for listening. And thank you for joining us once again. And this week it's Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce and this man. And this is a pivotal moment you get the sense in the fight here.

because Groves lands another brilliant right-upercut. The net overhand right, another right-upacut. Tudadinoff backs off for the first time in the contest. He's trying to stand his ground. He's so brave, but he's being outpunced at this stage now. This is a big attack from George Gross, a succession of right hands, left-hawks, another right hand. How is Tudinoff still on his feet?

George Gross stares at him as if to ask the same question. Two right-hands, left-hawks. took. Steve Gray stepped in. The referee has seen enough. Brable Lane erupts. George Groves is lifted aloft at last, and long last. George Groves is a world champion at the fourth time of trying. What a moment, what a glorious moment. Outdoors at Bramle Lane, the world title at last. The end of a journey, actually not really the end, just about the start of it. and what a delight of this to have him here today. For sure, and George, a memory that you'll never tire off, for sure.

No, definitely not, definitely not. No one calls it as good as Costello. That bit of comms there at the end. That's a good friend of mine, Duncan. He had that printed off and put a big collage with some pictures of the night. Really? So it's the only boxing memorabilia. I've got hanging on my walls, to be honest.

Love it. Absolutely love it. Plenty to come from George, as he'll be helping us preview a busy weekend. coming up with Billy Joe Saunders attempting to win a world title in George's weight division, super middleweight when he takes on the German-based Serbian Sheffat Isoufi. That's live on BBC 5 live on Saturday.

Josh Taylor also hoping to become Scotland's latest world champion and Deonté Wilder reappearing for the first time since his dramatic night against Tyson Fury, Wilder defending the WBC Heavyweight Crown in New York against fellow American Dominic Brazil. All that to come, but George, it's a few months now since you made your call, what have you been up to? Not an awful, not an awful awful lot, but

I, to stay in the sport to a certain degree, I wasn't too interested in hanging out in the gyms too much. I'm getting in before the real lads to get in to do real training. But yeah, a bit of, a bit of TV, a bit of radio. It's always good fun to call the fights, see the fights. And I took on a job at Wassamomam, who were my media agents while I was fighting, they've put together a real sort of boxing division

and we're going to have a go at it. So we've got a few boxing consultants on. We signed up a lot of fighters and on the look for some more talent as well. So that'll be how I stay in the sport. And hopefully I can pass some good advice, some wisdom and advice some young fighters on their careers. So you want to stay in the shark in festive waters?

Yeah, you know, like at the end of the day, I suppose it's the only way you really feel living sometimes. you know, when you can be a little bit clever. You know, that was part of the sport that I always really enjoyed, you know. The training comes part and past you. It's day and day out. That's the routine. But if you have a chance to be a little creative, a little bit switched on,

that's what used to really excite me at times. And it never came along for every fight, but when it did, I tried to make the most of it. And we're looking ahead now to where the super middleweight division is now. and Billy Joe Saunders is another who's danced around train as he's now with Ben Davison. He's making his entry into the super middleweight division this weekend. He was in the Olympic team in 2008. You just missed out.

Were you around him? Did you spar with him? But what did you know of Billy Joe Sauners back then? Yeah, well, he came onto the squad quite late. So the chap at his weight was a fellow called Neil Perkins, who was a very good elite-level amateur. He won a bronze medal or maybe better at one of the world championships. and he was kind of the poster boy as such for the amateur boxing.

Like he was the go-to guy. So when I first joined, his position was kind of set. Unfortunately for him, he went on a terrible run, like in the build-ups of the qualifiers and just couldn't string a win together. And I think he was struggling to make the wait and I was having an effect on his performances. So Sauna's got called in. And for people like me who'd been on the squad slugging away to try and get an opportunity, and I'd beat the number one, James de Gaill,

someone like Saunders just come in and just keep winning was just like oh god because literally you're in a bit of a funny funny situation when you're on those Olympic squads you're scratching your head sometimes and you're looking around

and you just want to copy the people around you because it's just a numbers game you've got to win I remember thinking Billy Joe Saunders just goes out and just lets his hands go it's got unbelievably fast hands but I don't see how

the judges keep going with it him, like maybe just because he throws so many punches. He'll finish around these six points up. I'll go out and do the same thing and I'm six points down and I think, what did he do? So, um, but a very good fighter. I remember we done some round sparring as amateurs and he had, um, really fast hands.

Clever, clever fighter, you know, but he seemed sort of like very well-schooled. Um, his defensive moves were that typical, came from a good amateur pedigree where, like, come from a really good amateur club where they took, probably taught him right, slipped this way, duck that way, do this, do that. And because he just did it so fast and he had such a good knowing

eye. And it was the four-toos as well, George. Sorry for him to interrupt it. It was the four-twos which certainly suited, James, once you got to the Olympics, suited Billy Joe in the run-ups in the Olympics at a world championships the year before. Seated Audley, Harrison. Suited Aldly.

Not necessarily thinking you're a four-two's fire. No. You wanted five freezers at amateur. Yeah, I kind of kept going. I mean, it just had to... I fought my face, the time as I'm a show you I can land I can land a shot on anyone

but don't get hit back and then we used to do these these drills where the last round was practicing your four points up I'll go on the move and I was like

oh how do I do that and I don't get on my pro there's literally the second I started trying to do that I just get bang bang bang bang bang head will just keep getting not bad

yeah exactly so I actually had to fight my way out of those good situations sometimes so but yes I wasn't sure how he would go as a pro because he's

I think he lacks a lot of discipline you know at times but in the last few years he sort of got himself together he looks in better shape he was with since he joined Engel he looked like he was taking it

a little bit more seriously obviously he just then decided to move away from home as such you know he's like he was training up north and I think he's probably doing the same because I think Ben Dave Davis trains in the north as well yeah yeah yeah so

so he's up there he's with Tyson Tyso Furi who's good, good power of his, so he's probably in a good place, but he's in a tough division. He's moves up to, soon midway, he's in another tough division,

you know, he's giving away natural size. I think he's obviously, he's a sort of, he's got the body type that will thicken out, you know, like myself,

like he's just thicken out. He's not skinny by any nature. But he'll have to keep, keep his hand speed. He's not a huge puncher. It wasn't a huge puncher as an amateur. Not a huge puncher as a middleweight, but if he's going to let,

combinations go he can be a concussive puncher but I kind of think like um he's lost a lot of momentum you know he had the Lemieux win and um you thought he's going to all kick on from there but he's kind of been dining out on that since um and i'll be honest i don't know an awful lot about this chap he's fighting next um but yeah i i he's because because i don't know much about him i assume he's a it's a introductory into the sumernerate division um he's relatively enough formal world champion he will jump the you and get an opportunity to fight for a belt soon. But there's some tough fights for him, but he's some middleweight.

So I'm not sure whether he can't make middleweight no more. He's moved up for the opportunities. Well, you mentioned momentum and discipline, George. And I was talking to Frank Warren, Saunders, long-time promoter about that last week. And he says that Billy Joe Saunders has reached a critical stage of his career. Last year for him was a dreadful year.

This year he's got to make up for it. He's been out to ring now for about 19 months. Sorry, he had a little fight in between, talk about a significant fight in that period of time. He failed to capitalize on a, I thought was one of the best boxing displays by a British boxer in many, many years against Lemieux. He's now got to get himself back into the record,

and this fight will do it. He's fighting a guy who's gone through various weights. He seems like he was heavy when he started off. He's now found his true weight, which is super midway. I think he's won all of his fights at super midway. Bill should hopefully be a class above him, providing he's comfortable at Super Middle Way, except be his first fight moving up away.

But if he comes through that, then he's back in the game, he's in a good position, and then we've got to try and get him into a real meaningful fight. I watched that fight the weekend, last weekend, between Canello and Jacobs, and I think the Billy Joe Saunders that fights Lemieux would beat both of them.

I really do believe that. So I've got to get him back in that position. You talk about Lemieux, and if we go back, There was the Chris Eubank Jr. win, Andy Lee. All of these great wins, and maybe should have been the sign of liftoff, and it hasn't quite happened. Is there, after all those successes, still a danger that we remember Billy Joe Sawnders

as a great unfulfilled talent? Well, that could be entirely down to him. You know, offer those wins, we signed twice to fight Golovkin. They sent the contract through. We signed them and sent them back, and the fight's never happened for various rings. and Canello didn't want to fight certainly after the Lemieux fight so he gets quite disappointed but

with his disappointment and the way he lets it get to him is not good that's not good for an athlete to blow up in weight and make it hard for himself and hopefully he's learned from that you know Ben Davidson had to take it on the chin for that he stepped in very late to train him when he was overweight

and he had a fight up in Glasgow and we had to postpone that fight because he was so heavy and if he hadn't afforded he had to lost his title. He shouldn't have even been in there really, but you know, because of the quality of the opponent, I felt he'd make you get through it. And he did do. But that's his problem. He has to, he's one of those guys, he has to focus on, you're saying to right, you're going to be fighting on August the 10th. He wants to know who it is right now. And if he hasn't got it, he finds it difficult to get into training and focus on what he's doing. And that's,

that he has to overcome. And what I think's good now that he's back with Ben is Ben's obviously matured as a trainer and he took a lot of unnecessary flack for what happened for that fight in Glasgow, which was wrong, it was out of bill at the end of the day. And he's now with Tyson. He's got Tyson who had similar problems in blowing up in between fights, putting on vast amount of weights, who's now, you know, looks, I mean, we see him, didn't we, at Stevenage over the weekend, he came up there. I mean, he looks in better shape now than he did when he fought Deonté Wilder. He retained his weight and his discipline and he's in that camp and I think he's, you know, it's rubbing off on the bill. The bill is in that position now where his legacy is going to be down to him.

Nobody else is going to be down to him. But being patient and us making the right moves. I want to get him out at least three times this year and that's the plan. And super middle, Frank, is that just an opportunity or is the weight not coming off anymore? It's an opportunity. You know, the Andrale thing, there was a lot of messing about with that. So I sort of looked at and I'm a big believer in boxing

is to strike if there's an opportunity arises and you feel comfort than to grab it and that's what I thought let's get on with it, let's do it, give him some focus, get him out there while we're messing around, seeing what happens with Andrade

that's what we've done. So now he comes through it, he's going to have options. Middleweight, super middleweight and fingers crossed he comes through it that we can start getting out there improving what he is because I think he has the capabilities of being one of the best box of his generation.

And you've dealt with so many great fighters who are also great characters. Is Billy Joe Sawner's among the most frustrating you've dealt with? He is. He's got a tremendous personality. And when you sit down with him, he can be very engaged and he's funny and when that. But then he had just, you know, which hopefully he won't do. And then he has some silly things. And I think that's because he's got time to spare between fights, people he's hanging

around with. He just doesn't do himself any justice. And that stuff last year was in all really, really poor taste and stupid, juvenile. And he's paid the price for it. You know, the ball would find him 100,000 pounds for that. If you don't learn from lessons like that, then I never learn. But it was stupid and it was boarish. But, you know, he can bloody fight.

He can fight. Frank Warren, on the enigma, Steve, that is Billy Joe Saunders. And it is an enigma, Mike. You know, listening to George there, when Billy went out to the Olympics, he was a kid, he was a baby. He was ranked the top under 19 prospect in the world. There was a lot of, there was a lot behind him. Then he turned pro, if I'm not mistaken, he was the one on the shortest odds to win a world title.

It's that great little gambling chart you've got. And there were great signs and there were early signs as a pro. And then there's that trio of great victories. It's 2014 he beat Eubank. 2014. I mean, that's, you know, in boxing years, that's decades ago. Then the Andy Lee victory where he drops Andy Lee with that great shot. It's a great victory.

Then the Lehmu, even though. Even Lemieux was, what, December 2017. And then there's last year. There's the drug problem and the drug issue where he fails a test, the Varda test in America, but it's a test that had he taken it here, he wouldn't have failed it in this country because it's about the same day. It's about it's about in competition testing and it's just about testing. So the border control backed him fully on that.

He relinquished the title. Cost him $2.3 million, not to go ahead with the And Andradei, and he would have beaten Andrade. He don't worry about that way. So that's cost him an awful lot of money. and then around the same time he's involved in this really ridiculous thing. Frank Warren called it boorish. That might be kind from Frank Warren there,

where there's five or six of him in a car, and they find a woman that's on the street, a desperate drug addict, who's also a prostitute, and they film her, and they talk to her, and it's all just so ugly and so horrible. And he is fine, the vast sum of money, 100,000. I mean, you know, you throw a table at someone, you threaten death at the border control hit you with 10 grand. So that shows you how seriously they took it,

and they were right to take it that seriously. And I'm not saying this is the last chance to Loon, because Billy Joe Soren is still relatively young at 29 years of age. But Mike, there aren't that many more chances. If he were to foul or look dismal against a zoofi, he won't. He won't. He won't. But if you were, then that in some ways makes this the most important fight of his career. I suppose as well, George, in the end, what you do outside the ring at some stage is going to catch up.

You can look at the calendar years, 29, but you can look at hard rounds and hard lives as well, all add into the age factor. don't I? No, definitely. And, um, excuse me. You've got, you've got to live, you've got to live, you've got to live, you know, you've got to, ballooning up and down in weight will take years off your career. Like, it's, it's a fact, you know, and some, some fighters do have body types that

are prone to putting on weight. Sometimes they have to kill themselves to get down to the weight that they're ranked out and the opportunities are at. But I don't feel like Saunders is in that category, you know, he should be able to make middleweight comfortably. Now he's at super middleweight. He should be able to make two men even more comfortably. Keep yourself.

in good Nick and and therefore he'd be able to concentrate on his training rather than concentrating on making weight because if you're trying to if you're in a calorie depleted diet and you're prone to make his stupid decisions if you ain't got sugar feed you'll pray the good

the good information you're a bit wound up and bit tens you're going to make even more stupid decisions. It does look happier I don't have ever seen him look and he does sound happier and I've ever seen him sound we thought he was happy at Dominic Ingle because Dominic Ingle helped him re-find his love for boxing Billy said he was ready to walk away Then he found Dominic Ingo, and he found that life in Sheffield living with Kid Galaad, Barry Awad, you know, in the top of a flat and changing his lifestyle in many ways.

Discovering vegetables, discovering water. Guess what? You can drink water. Like it was a, no, I'm telling you, George, it was like a revelation. Billy Joe Saunders had been a world champion two years when he discovered such a thing as water. And guess what? You can drink two litres a day. No, you've got to drink three litres a day. It was like a reverber.

Billy told us this. Like, by the way, you know this water? If you drink three litres of that, turns out your health. you. He really meant it. That's old school that. We never had water at the day or either. Trust me, it was like a discovery. He just thought you had to have, you know, you had to drink two, one and a half litres of diet Coke a day. He thought that's what fueled him. And since moving with Ben, he's even happier. And it's interesting because you've been in a couple of different camps. Some have been real team like spirits and some have been just you and a couple of people around you. What they, what Ben Davidson is recreating there with Tyson Fury with Isaac Lowe and with Billy Joe Saunas is an old. old school amateur style field. They're very much in a clan. They're very much in a team.

Yep. And it definitely have a positive effect on, you know, on each other. It might be a bit bold to say, right? And it might be way off of time. But I feel like Billy Joe Sawd has got a lot of positive reaction

from the Mubew win. And I feel that's kind of pacified him to the point where he's not too fuss now because people are on his side. And, you know, at times they have. haven't been, but they're on his side now. Nothing to rage against.

No, exactly. So he lost that world title, he lost his world title against And you, I don't see if you back in, but I feel like Adrani's a very good fight. They would have been a tough fight. And probably the best fight he would have faced in his career today. And you look at the other guys out there at middleweight, obviously you've got Jacobs, Kennella just box weekend, Golofkin,

and so many more. So he's in amongst it, you know. And by not fighting, he's still doing okay. But obviously the second you go out and you fight and you get beat Then you know that people will turn against it And some people like Billy goes onus I'm pretty sure He's not necessarily motivated by by money He's not motivated by

You know the conventional things that most fighters are You know within his community within he you know The people that he has contact with you know If he's out of a high regard He's a good fighting man and Tyson Fury alongside him And you know they're all doing well you know Fury is the darling

of the heavyweight division now all of a sudden so I feel like that has more of a value than you know going out there and risking it

you know it's not necessarily a criticism it's what you want to find but that that's that would be my opinion as is right now because I mean

Tyson Tyson Fury darling of heavy division because he sort of come back to life against Deontze Wilder you know and Deonté Wilder sort of, in my opinion, don't really get a fair shake.

You know, he's gone out there. He's beat Stavirman when he was champion. He's beat Louis-Oltice when I wanted to touch him. He's been in some tough fights. And he's funny. He's engaging. He's a lovely guy as well. But he hasn't really, he hasn't got that rock star status that, you know, an American

heavyweight should have. You know, even Anthony Joshua, who really hasn't put a foot wrong, you know, undefeated, knocked everyone out, you know, headlining. when he's had to headline his carriage sport he took the sport to the, you know,

to the masses and even he's like playing second fiddle to Tyson Fury now who a couple of years ago tested positive you know for a banned substance

and not cocaine like a performance-enhancing substance you know but he had the time away and we as British people appreciate someone who can come back you know who can admit

admit when they made a mistake hands up hands up, you know, I've got over this and he's obviously now, and you know, the face of sort of mental health issues, particularly in men and his sport.

So, you know, he's defying the odds in that respect. And also, because he got a bum decision against the Odey Wilder, you know, he goes to the front of the queue. We love a bum decision, you know? I've been living off it for years, I promise. Yeah, and Wilder fights again this weekend against Dominic Brazil. Of course, we were hoping for Wilder against

Fury too. And there's a fascinating stat this week, George, that in all the history, like 135 years of the heavyweight division, Deonti Wilder will be making his ninth defence of the World Heavyweight title. If he's successful, he'll become only the 10th heavyweight

to make that many defences. That surprised me. And that's not consecutive defenses, is it? Yes. Consecretive. So he'll join a list. So Ali, for example, had one reign of nine defences and one reign of ten defences. But it's nine

in a row, at least nine in a row. Only 10 have done that. Yeah, that's good going going, some great names haven't. Yeah, most of the great names you're thinking of haven't. So Marciana never made it. George Foreman never made it. I'm assuming Vitalian Vladimir did make it. That's the only ones for the modern. Lennox made it second time round if he made it second time. They didn't make it first time round.

It's a really good list. And even if, you know, the fellow in the opposite corner, George, is, you know, by some opinion, unranked or underrated, you've still got to get it right on the night, all of those different times. And whatever's happening in your personal life, whatever tweaks you might have picked up in training, you've got to get it right on the night.

So whatever the standard of opponent, you have to tip your hat to longevity. And that's why they haven't been that many, I guess. No, definitely, definitely. And, you know, there's... There's a lot money in the heavyweight division right now, so there's a lot of opportunities, there's a lot of fights, you know, so there's a real, there's a real urge and a rush for the best to fight the best

straight away, but then we'll get bored because we'll have one winner after a couple years, there'll be nothing left, you know, so, yeah, Fury's gone his way. I think he got, he got so much praise, and Joshua probably got the stick off the back of it, was that he sort of come back and went, I'll fight anyone, and he signs to fight Deonce Wilder the next day, I know one really gives him a chance of winning and, you know, he goes out there and he gives such a good performance. So, but the reason the rematch hasn't happened, you know, will be a variety of different reasons. Usually someone has to face the brunt in terms of the public opinion, but Fear is obviously signed with a

different promo on a different network, you know, which is straight away makes that fight almost impossible to make. Um, we disown now with Andy Joshua, uh, who's a subscription channel, it's not even a pay-per-view channel. So I don't know how he's going to ever fight any of these guys, because they can't even split the revenue. It's a bit worried. We do want the best guys to fight each other. But Dominic Brazil is, you know, he's only got one loss in his record, I think, against Joshua. So, like, you know, he's probably the best of what's out there.

You know, and he's, yeah, it might not be, you know, of the greatest level that Wilder's face. But it's certainly a tough enough test. He's going to have to stay switched on. and to keep his name, to put in a real performance, put in a dominant performance. Also this weekend in Glasgow, someone you know well, Josh Taylor in the World Boxing Super Series,

which you were in, he's in the super lightweight semi-final, Ivan Barancheck from Belarus, now living in Miami. Tough, tough cookie. But I like Josh Taylor. Josh Taylor's a very good fire, a very good fire.

I feel like he's got a... he's just he's crazy in that he just doesn't switch off do I mean he's like maybe I got old at that point you know what you make you feel old

he's tired he's tiring me out watching him you don't mean like and you know when he's down doing camps in London sometimes he'll be sharing a room with a couple of other fighters and they're like he's up in the night doing shadow boxing

one in the morning I had to pull him over once and say Josh save it mate save it he's done more shadow boxing this morning than I've done for the last camp well give me some of that intensity please

But it's been a bit of a frustrating period for him because he's kind of like he's on the cusp of fighting for his first world title in the tournament. But the first round, the quarterfinals would have been, you know, the later part of last year. And he was supposed to be boxing in February March. And now he got pushed right the way back. We're into May.

It was, I'm going to know whether it was going to go ahead or not. But he's had a new lease of life with that, you know, Skya picking it up now. Baron-check's definitely in. He's fighting for a world title. and it's a fantastic opportunity. Anyone who signed in for them tournaments, you know, they got, you know, you're guaranteed free fights in a year

and to come out a world champion, you know, sign me up. That was why I was the first one in. I couldn't think of anything better. You know, I've been in the sport when you don't know when the next fight's coming, where you don't know when the next payday's coming as such, you know, because you lived that roller coaster life of going,

oh, I'm fighting at Wembley Stadium, going to earn all this money, and then, oh, no, I'll back down. at the arena now and there's not so much money you know so you got to you got to be careful you've got to be sensible

you've got to stay motivated and Josh Taylor to his credit is one of them is a great person in the gym I really appreciated being in the gym

with him because he's he trains like a demon you know he's so energetic he's so you know he's got so much

enthusiasm for the sport but he's also a great guy and he's got his head switch on he knows like there was a difficult situation he was facing here where he was like well, you know, Barenchev was talking about pulling out, was he going to pull out with a belt?

Is the belt going to stay in the tournament? If it comes out, does he, does he stay in the tournament? Does he have to? What were his contractual obligations? And without going into too much detail, you know, the McGuigan camp, my opinion, fantastic place to be. Carl Frampton's opinion, slightly different.

You know, those two guys were there before I was there. So that didn't get a backdrop? So, Taylor had to then, this He was the one who's kind of in the middle. He had to decide, right, what's best for me? Do I jump ship, you know, face, you know, break my contract, do these things, do that.

Or do I stick with what I know is what I know good? And I believe he's made the very best decision. He stayed with a very good coach in Shane McGuigan. Dave, him and the, you know, the McGuigan team of negotiating him into this tournament. He's getting great money. And off the back of this tournament, he's going to be an undisputed world champion, you know. He's going to have every opportunity there is, he's going to have. You know, whether it be, he starts going to the States,

whether he starts trying to promote himself. With him, whatever, yeah. Exactly, there's some huge fights out there for him, if he wants him, which he does. And, you know, he's shown a real maturity of late. You know, he's relocated to London. He's brought his long-time girlfriend down with him. He's put his dog down with him.

He loves his dog. He loves dogs, Josh. He's a great character, as he's a thinker, which is good. You just don't want him to overthink at times. But I think he's got a good team. around him and he's definitely one to watch you know he's got he's got he's got he's got the opportunities now and he's going to become world champion next weekend for sure well it was also announced in the last week or so george and it reminded me of you against james de gale back in 2011 that nathan

goorman is going to fight daniel dubois for the vacant british heavyweight title that's on july the 13th at the o two arena get your thoughts on that in the moment but i was talking to them both about the timing of it being so early in their career because because Daniel Dubois had 11 fights, Nathan Gorman's 16 fights, Dubois only 21, Nathan Gorman 22. So what about the timing? I'll put it to Nathan Gorman and to Daniel Dubois. Here's Gorman first as to why now?

I think it's perfect timing for me, you know. We're both hungry, we're both ready for this fight. You know, you can do a thing called overcooker fight. Kell, brook and can, you know, that fight's been talked about for years and years and years. It's gone to the fact where the British public are no more interest in it, are they? But this fight, I think we've struck where the iron's hot on this one and it's come together nicely. It's just come right after, you know, my, the hardest fight I've had so far as a pro. And, yeah, it's a perfect fight right now.

It's another step in the right direction. And I've come through my test so far. And I've just got to keep building and moving forward. And eventually, you know, surpass, become a world title, world champion. And then from there, who knows. Yeah, this is definitely a step in the right direction. direction. You've spoken about your rivalry back at the GB squad. Can you give me some details as to what you believe went down? Yeah, you're 100% right there. We were definitely big rivals in

the GB squad, you know. Even down to the running, I had to beat him. Everything. Lifting weights, I had to beat him. Doing bag work, I had to beat him. It was massive rivalry. He was potentially in my spot to proceed and I had to eliminate him. So that's why it was a massive rivalry. Even in the sparring, you know, we wanted to hurt each other, which we did. You know, I felt like I'll never lost a round out of the two 300 pounds are done. He's basically admitting it in himself. He listened to him or he was only 18 years of age. I was only 19, so what's a year going to do?

But in terms of the general relationship, when you went back to the changing rooms, around about the showers, and when you finished your runs, what was that like? There was no conversation there. We were just two different personalities. Like he said, he's not on my Christmas list this year.

We're that way we don't get along. We are rivals. We've been rivals since we met each other. And we're rivals now. And I'd imagine we'll still be rivals after I beat him. It is what it is. We're coming through at the same time. Nathan happened to be on the team and the same sort of coming through the juniors where I was. And, you know, we did a couple rounds. Nothing, you know, really to talk about. And that was it. Were you at different stages of your career?

Well, we were at pretty much the same level. I just wanted to progress, show the national coaches. I was the better boxer, a better athlete, and move on. My dream at the time was to have international honours. I've had a taste of that, and now it's wearing a big time. And in terms of evolving into the professional style, how have you felt the longer distances have suited your game? A lot better.

You know, I wish it was the days of the 15 rounders, you know. longer it goes the more better it is for me. You don't see, to be fair, there's nine times out of ten heavyweights, three or four rounds they start blowing up. But in my case, rounds ten, I start getting more, more better.

And people talk about whether it's Tyson Fury or yourself, not an Adonis type figure, but it's a case of fit for purpose, isn't it? Listen, I've said this in previous interviews, you know, if this was a bodybuilding competition, Daniel will get first prize. He'd be Mr. Olympia.

I'm the dad bod. But this is fighting, you know what I mean? And you don't have to have a good figure to be a world champion. In all fairness, Mike, Nathan Gorman's body has changed drastically over the last 18 months. We're still joking about it when actually you go, wow, that has altered. I think this sets a record. I haven't done absolutely complete diligence. But I believe combined age 43, I think that's the youngest ever combined age for any pairing.

a British heavyweight title fight. Joe Boogner was fairly young when he won the title, as was Herbie Hyde, but they were fighting older men. I mean, Boehner was fighting 37-year-old Cooper, for God's sake. And then Jack Baudelaire, who was like Cooper's great uncle, so he was certainly older. I love this fight. I still think it's too early.

Not because the fight later on would be a better fight. I think it's too early for these two guys. And I'm not absolutely... Listen, I'm sorry to buck the trend here, because everyone's saying it's a great fight. It is a great fight. It is a great fight. But I think it's too early.

I think neither of these two know enough, know enough about losing if they were forced into a corner, if they were forced. I don't think there's enough defensive skills here from either of them. Maybe Nathan Gorman a little bit more than Daniel Dubrow. We saw that last Dubra fight. Do you remember? It was absolutely fantastic at Wembley against Lati. And there was a moment, you probably saw it as well, George. There was a moment when they went rocky on us.

Do you remember him and Larty? They opened their legs. They dropped their arms to somewhere about shoulder. and they just let, there was 12 seconds, it was one of the greatest 12 seconds. It was a 12 seconds that belonged in the 70s, a 12 seconds that belonged in the 50s. We don't get a lot of those 12 seconds.

Sometimes between us, they don't even come up every decade. And Dubois gave it to us, then he eventually knocked Larty out, and he was a lump Larty. And I just feel they both needed a few more fights. I'm delighted it's happening, but I just think it's a bad fight for both of them,

and I'm delighted they've made the wrong decision and agreed to it. Can I leave it at that? But George, when you fought James DeGale, it was like 10 fights and 12 fights, 2011 so early in your career, all of that background of the amateur contest and how close that was and the arguments around it. And Nathan Cleverly was nominally top of the bill, but you were top of the bill. It's what everybody went to see.

So how are these fellas feeling? Well, by the sounds of it, Nathan sounds like he's quite enjoying it. You know, he's obviously the more of the talker, and he's probably relishing the idea that, you know, he's got someone someone to talk about now you know and there there is that that could be a like a motivation

that can be the sense that gets you through the camp and there'll definitely be periods for each of them where there's that that somber moment that quiet moment where you reflect and you think well this is this is different you know this isn't someone who's been picked and get beat this is someone who's coming to win

genuinely come to win and if I'm not on my game might have a chance of it I was shocked that they'd sparred so many rounds I couldn't believe that I'd never knew that You know, I never realized that that many rounds they must know an awful lot about each other. They're not really giving much away at all.

I definitely I understand the bit when he says, we're not that mates. We never hang out together. We never socialising. Exactly. I understand that perspective. But,

I'm happy as coming. Steve, I'm going to say I'm happy for it because they're young enough, especially as heavy weights, to, you know, the loser to come away and rebuild. What I don't like is, you know, there's, they might have a humdinger and fight. It might be, you know, a fight at a year candidate.

And then everyone I'm saying, the rematch. No, it doesn't matter. Whatever the fight is, there's no rematch after. Because the person who loses needs to go on and go away and rebuild. The person who wins Delta needs to. Goes forward. Goes forward. Yeah.

Because that, you know. Good point, George. I had the fight with James de Gaille. And obviously it was a real close fight. I won on a split decision. I was on the way card and Frank Warren came in and said do you want to go again?

I'll double your purse. I said, mate. I thought it was the best of five. But at that point there was not a chance that I was going to for a meme. Because I thought now, this is it.

I'm going to open so many doors for me and it did, you know. I ended up signing with Frank. But I thought Paul Smith at the end of the year and then I think I was in line to fight Robert Stiglitz for the WBO world title.

You know, I got injured. that I had to pull out. But he did open a lot of doors for me. James had to go away. I think he had a couple of fights in a Denmark, a place that where he came away and rebuilt. And he did rebuild.

He had some good 12 rounders, to be honest. No, he did. He did. It must have took a while, you know, before he came back. But if we'd just gone straight back into a rematch, I was thinking that would have been the end of us. I watched Anthony Fowler against Fitzgerald.

And, you know, I fancy Fitzgerald that fight I thought Fowler reminds me of a lot of a Cole Frotch, you know, he leaves with his face but he doesn't quite have the punch resistors that a cold Frot has, so he doesn't get those allowances and if he gets hit on the button, he will

go over, but it was a high-pressure fight, you know, it was a real sort of rivalry fight that was sold, and I feel that sort of, that has an effect on the fight where Fitzgerald, he had him, buzzed, had him hurt right at the end, and decided to go for a walk, but if them two went straight into a rematch, it would

It would take years off of the careers of both fights. Fitzgerald now needs to go on, even if it's an easier fight, just something to have a relax on, you know, in terms of the rivalry of the intensity of the, you know, the mental preparation, or go on to something bigger and better. And Fowler need to, you know, learn from his mistakes, go away, rebuild and at a lower level, and see if he can come again.

And back to Dubois and Gorman. George, you used this phrase earlier on, do I want a world title? Do I want a fast car? And it's this kind of dilemma, the line that you tread. And these two are going to earn proper good money from this particular fight. And that is, you turn professional to earn money as well as the title. So it's this marriage of the two somehow.

You're going to make it work. It's a job. It's a job. You know, that's why, you know, everyone's different. Some people would choose the easier fight for less of money because of the accolades. And if it would have, I've already earned some money or less enough money to see me through. Or some people are like, no, just pay me the most amount of money. Do I mean?

I remember Darren Barker talking about, you can fight at home against Sturm for less money or go away and get more. I'll take the harder fight abroad. More money. At that stage, that was his decision. You know, who could say whether he made the right or wrong decision? These two heavyweights. Sometimes fights just happen because they have to happen.

I remember I sort of, it was not really. playing chicken with DeGale but he became the British title I was like I'm going to make myself mandatory and then I did and it was like well this fight is going to happen because neither of us can pull out like this is it's happening you're sort of brilliant yeah yeah good point and that's how you know careers sort of can

navigate at some point and you give the fans what they want and I believe it's a good a good fight for both of them because the winner will go on to something else but also it's that proof in the pudding that they're willing to put it all on the line as such you know to be involved in real fights, you have to be under that pressure.

You can't, the old, you know, before I turn pro, fighters, some prospects would go 20 and 0, 25 and 0 before they step up and fight for a British title even. You know, and you go through their record, they're fighting journeymen in their full fight. They're fighting the same journeymen in their 15th fight. You're like, that teaches you not to have a fight. You know, you're just showing up.

Helps you forget how to fight. Exactly. So it's good to be in a real fight. It's good for these two to be in a real fight. And it's just, for me, she made it that much more fascinating that they know each other that well. I didn't realize they knew each other that well and they've done hundreds of rounds together

on the development squads on the amateur circuit. They're both going to know a lot about each other. I think people are going to be less in a rush to get behind Dubois when they hear about how much they've done in the gym already. And therefore, as you say, how much they know about, how much they really know about each other. Yeah, well, Dubois seems to me like, if it's going to come, if a fight's going to come early, it would become early for him because he seems like he's got so much more potential, you know, like so much more to learn, so much more to develop and he's become, he can become like one of the best, if not the best out there, you know, in a heavyweight division. But maybe it's just like his youthful look, you know, in his face, he looks like the way he fights, you feel like he's, he, he's missing like 50 amateur fights.

You know, it's a shame that he didn't, you know, get on the England and do two years circuits around, round the world, fighting for England. And then he would have that banged. He's going pro early and he's learning his craft and he's doing, he hasn't put a foot wrong. But it's like a bad way where I feel like it's a good thing. It's like having a young junior who still looks boyish. You know, when he matures, he gets his man strength, he's going to be a handful. Same with Dubai.

He's phenomenal punch power. But I feel like the nitty, gritty boxing skill, the knowledge that. that know-how will come with experience. It's just navigating the journey whilst gaining that experience. That's the tough bit for him. We're heading from here across London to a lunch in your honour, organised by the boxing writers club. But generally, what's ahead for you now?

You said at the beginning how you're going to get involved in kind of a management scheme. Yeah, I mean, that would be great. I mean, I remember seeing Daniel Dubois in the Delioux Amateur Gym, I think, as an amateur. It's a great picture of you, isn't that? you and him. Yeah, it must be, it must be.

Because, I wouldn't mind if I'd if I'd go back in time now and sign that, you'll find out and see who comes along after that.

But yeah, that's sort of, you know, that's where I sort of find a bit of fun, a bit of enjoyment, element. I like,

I like the strategy. I like the, like, as I say, being creative. How can we, how can we, you go out and win

and we'll make you a star do I mean and we'll think of ways to be to put you in the front of the queue and then when you're at the front of the queue you just keep winning so I'm looking forward to that I mean I haven't got to be honest

it's sort of it's a slow burn I'm sort of I'm taking I'm enjoying retirement life I'm still in that honeymoon phase I'm enjoying being at home being with a kids doing this doing that but yeah that's that's my

my go hopefully my contribution something to give back well it's been a pleasure George Thanks for you. Thank you. Thanks, George. Next up on BBC 5 Live, of course,

commentary on Saturday evening from Stephenage Football Club, Billy Joe Saunders fighting for a version of the WBO Super Middleweight title against the German-based Serbian chef at Isoufi. That's live just after 10 o'clock or thereabouts on Saturday night on BBC 5 Live. And we're back, as usual, with a review of Saunders against Issy Sufi and Josh Taylor and Deonté Wilde are over in the United States. On next week's 5 Live Boxing with Costello. on Bunce.

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