5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Boxing’s back on the BBC

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

How big a moment is it to see live boxing back on BBC television on a Saturday night? Buncey speaks to Frazer Clarke and Jeamie TKV ahead of their British heavyweight title fight in Derby on October 25th, live on BBC 2. He also gets insight from the BBC’s Kal Sajad and asks former British heavyweight Clifton Mitchell what it really means to fight for the Lonsdale belt.

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That's pockethose.com slash podcast for your two free gifts with purchase. Pockethose.com slash P-O-D-C-A-S-T. This is Five Live Boxing. Quite often, I try and make my intro slightly lyrical and I make reference to something. There might be, I don't know, I might be on a beach in California, I might be up a mountain in Saudi and I try and make it clever and smart. Not this time. This is the intro to this pod. On BBC 2, on October the 25th, between 8 and 10,

there will be a British heavyweight title fight between Fraser Clark and Jamie TKV. That's it. Those are the facts. I'm Steve Bunce and this is Five Live Boxing. So what better place to talk about the return of boxing to the BBC than an old warehouse, converted warehouse by an old canal behind Kings Cross. Ideal place. And I'll tell you why, shall I? Because from where I'm sitting, if I could see through this building, I would actually be able to see a thing called the British Boxing Border Control Gym at King's Cross,

where every single fighter in the 60s, 70s and 80s trained for their British title fights on the BBC. So there's always a reason to these rambles. Just let me do them. Anyway, I'm joined by the BBC's boxing writer Cal Sajad. Now, Cal, let's start at the top. Good to have boxing back on the BBC, but I think you're going to correct me and tell me, actually, Bunsey, it's never really been away.

Yeah, well, it's not strictly true this 25 years, Malarkey. Nice story, though. It's a great story, but we've had loads of pro and amateur boxing on the BBC. But this is, you know, we had Jessica McCasker and Lauren Price, Lauren Price winning a world title last year. That's coordination, so that was on BBC to Wayne Wales. Yeah, okay. So there's been a host of fights,

but this is the return of professional boxing on linear UK wide telly, BBC 1 or BBC 2, essentially. That's the language you need to be using. Which I'm never going to use. Thanks for telling me. 8 till 10 o'clock. Now, the language they're using here, when we're standing around with the people from Boxer,

the organisation that's done the deal with the BBC, is that the fights take place in a good piece of real estate. Now, what they mean by that, well, correct me if I'm wrong, is that we're sandwiched somewhere between strictly come dancing, that's not bad. And match of the day, that's not bad. And we're in the middle. We've got two hours in the middle. Not bad real estate cow. Strictly will still be going on. So you might miss a couple of the undercard fights while Strictly's going on. But you can chop and change. You can go back and forth. You can have two TVs if you want. Obviously the two boxes are here.

That's lovely. We'll hear from the pair of them later on. And we'll also hear from a man that once fought for the British heavyweight title and we'll talk to him about the Lonsdale Bell. But a bit disappointing in boxers. Ben Shalom wasn't here. Now the official word why Ben not here, is that he's been called to a promoter's meeting in Riyadh by Turkey Alashake. That's Ben Shalom's reason for not being here. But, Cal, as an insider at the Bee, you're based in Salfour, inside what passes, I suppose, as TV centre up there to a degree. So, Cal, when did you first hear about the Boxer Deal with the BBC?

Bear in mind that their last show was in front of 23 or 24,000 people, Callum Simpson, winning the European title in Barnsley. And that was in like mid to late June. There were rumours then that Sky were finished with Boxer. Again, if Ben was here, he could clear up and give us actual date. So how soon after that did you start to hear whispers that they could actually end up on the beam? Yeah, it's probably sort of a month or two after that. I think after it became apparent that the Sky Boxer deal was no more.

Ben Shalon, Boxer were in a bit of limbo. We didn't know where they'd go. There was talk of them joining some of the other promoters on that channel. It just looked like the Zone. It just looked like, you know, Ben, I talked to Ben that night at Ringssoe, as it was very late, about midnight. and him saying to me Bunting there's nowhere else I can go they won't pay

Skype won't pay for the fights I've got lined up so I've got to take the boarders and he also said it's going to be announced that week and of course it wasn't so the zone thing seems to have fallen through as I'd be great if Ben was here because he could answer all of these

what he can put some weight behind the rumours or kill them well I'll put it to you though how big is this deal you know what it's like watching any sport but particularly boxing on free to air television what that can do to participation to eyeballs to grow in the sport.

How huge is this? Well, if you're going on BBC at 8 o'clock at night, you're doing real damage, you're doing real damage, you're getting great numbers, but more than that, you're infiltrating, you're getting mentioned, you're getting eyes on it, just casualised on it. People just walking through a room,

it sounds like a joke, or just walking through a pub, it's on TV. There's the BBC logo up in the corner. Much of boxing over the last two or 20-odd years has been on satellite channels. So it's been on smaller channels that have got growing on bigger, increasingly bigger markets. But the bebe's the bebe.

And obviously we would say this because we're both here working for different parts of the BBC. But it's a phenomenal chance for boxing to raise its profile. I said it all the way along, it's a game changer. When we were out in Saudi recently and people were saying, oh yeah, but it won't be, it won't be this, it won't be that.

And I just said, it doesn't matter. If there's two hours live on, On a Saturday night, on BBC 2, that is a potential game changer in the business. Yeah, and matchmaking is so important here as well. You need to have fights that entertain the public, right? Yeah, I mean, it's no good as having fights with brilliant, no disrespect. This might sound like a contradiction in terms, but we need tear-ups. I mean, you know, and there might be some people saying, oh, Buncie, please, I wish you were a purist.

Well, I'm purist in some ways. You know, I don't want a boxing lesson. I won an eight round war between Fraser Clark and Jamie TKV. Well, they spoke today, didn't they about the responsibility of entertaining? I think they'll give you that war. And there is a responsibility to entertain. You know, we know that Turkey Al-a-Shake gives those boxers in Saudi a pep talk before the fight. It's like you're auditioning here.

And if you win and you're in a stinker, you might not get invited back. And if you lose and you're in a great fight, you will get invited back. Well, I'm not saying that someone should come down from the BBC high towel. Voluntary. Absolutely. I'm not volunteering. I'm not saying that someone should walk in to the changing room before a fight,

but I think the boxers understand. It's a platform. The winner of this becomes the most watched fighter in Great Britain this year. Because irrespective of how high the numbers are, so some people are talking about ridiculously high numbers, we know roughly where the cutoff will be because Channel 5 get up to a million on a Friday night.

So we have to assume it's somewhere north of that, figure which instantly makes you the most watched boxer in Britain in 2025. Cowlinson, you've been absolutely brilliant. Let's hear from the fighters and let's start with Fraser Clark because it just feels like this is where Fraser Clark belongs. Back in a boxing ring, that's home for me and it's been little and far between as of late. You know, I've not been in that ring nowhere near enough but to be back in the boxing ring, to be on the BBC, to be in Derby, which is down the road for me,

you know, it's an amazing feeling. Last year was a roller coaster for you. You had the incredible 12 rounds with Fabio Wardley. Then you went to Saudi Arabia and it didn't work out. It was a bit of a freak ending, if you don't mind me saying so. But you've had a run out since. That was crucial. It was short, but it was crucial.

Just to get back in the ring, Steve, you know, I think the big thing about me getting back the ring was people were saying, is there going to be demons? Is he going to be the same? Yeah, you got... Of course there is. Every time you get in the ring, there is. And I was a little bit apprehensive, a little bit nervous.

I took a great shot from Fabio Ward inside Arabia. For a lot of people and for a normal person, that might be career-threatening, but not for Fraser Clark. No chance. I was always coming back. And I wanted to come back with a vengeance. Boxer were right behind me, you know, and we got that fight back on and absolutely went in there

and obviously it took me... Once he threw one shot, I thought, this isn't happening again. I had to get him out of there. The first fight with Big Fab was a strange old fight because I still in my mind, listen, on the night, I thought you could have got it.

I've told you, I was in the dressing room straightway afterwards. But for some reason, it always feels like it was a loss because it wasn't a win, you know, because you were fighting for the title. He goes home with the title, you don't, and it's this brutal,

incredibly savage, unbelievable fight. And I'll be honest with you, I saw both of you straight after that fight. I was in with Fabio, and I was in with you, and you were in better Nick. Yeah, I mean, I thought, You were hurting, don't get me wrong, but you were in better nick than he was.

Listen, I think we, there's no doubt, you know, we can't doubt Fabio Wardley's toughness, you know, another one who has been on the other side, over corner of the ring to me. Now I've got a lot of respect for the things that he does and the way that he does it. A tough guy, but I thought I won that fight, the first fight. It wasn't to be, second fight. You know, he did what I planned to do. He got his job done. He's moved on.

But now, for me, it's back to building. And listen, it's not forgot about them, them two fights that I've had. It's just experience, Steve. Yeah. And they are fights that could be, well, a third fight with Fabio Wardley at some point in the future is kind of essential. I think it makes sense as well because the second fight was such a freak fight. Listen, he caught me with a great shot and what happened happened. And for me, a third fight with Fabio would be fantastic.

But right now I've got to just look at what's in front of me and that's Jamie. I know that's the boring answer. That's the truth. But listen, in this heavyweight division, I've said this over the last couple of weeks, opportunities around every corner if you're winning. You know, so that's what kind of doing. Jamie's got a bit more pedigree than some people actually think. You know, he had that running, was it, the African Games,

trying to get to the Olympics and all sorts of other tournaments. He's, you know, he's got a little bit more pedigree, and he's had a few more fights than I think people think. Just that maybe the pro fights is all based around just the one of our team with Adelaide, but there are a couple of other sort of 50-50 good British fights in there. He says he's fairly well-seasoned for someone that looks inexperienced. Absolutely. I don't think you looked inexperienced. When you look at the way he boxes, you just know this isn't, it's not his first rodeo.

You can tell he's been in there. Shapes up well, does a lot of the fundamentals well. Obviously, me being a boxer and coming through the amateur game, remember, Steve, I know most individuals in boxing, especially a heavyweight. back over 10 years. From here to the other side of the world, I'd say I know everyone, Jamie is someone I did see,

you know, and heard about it through when I was an amateur as well. I think there was, at one point, I think it was trying to get to box on a club show at some point, if I remember,

right, this is years and years ago, so it's not like, I've just seen him, he's just come on a scene, I respect this pedigree. Fraze, you reminded me of something now. I know that you had that fight

with AJ a million years ago at like a little social club in Burton or something. 2009. Which is one of those mad things. one of those sort of mad bits of history. But when was the last time that Fraser Clark thought

in a small little venue like that in Burton or maybe in Derby? You know, a tiny little venue three or four hundred people. Can you remember what it was? No, probably 20... This is how mad it is. The smallest venue of probably boxing

was a great venue. It's the York All, since probably 2012, maybe. Yeah, because you had some... some WSBs at the York. The York. Yeah, so that's probably this month in 2012 probably, yeah, I'd say so. So I just love the idea that you're fighting, you're fighting in a place where it's five quid on the door

and it's some social, social club in Burton. I just, I just love the idea. The best days of boxing, and I, I'd say you can ask any pro, you can ask any pro now, Steve, and they'll tell you the same, the best times of your boxing career, absolutely. But, Frays, it's a British title fight, it's back on the BBC, so you're making a little bit of history here.

It is a important fight. And as you've said, with heavyweights, it's just one win away from getting closer to something, getting closer to what the heavyweight promise land. And that heavyweight promise land is a big, it's a big island at the minute, Steve. But like I say, you know, my plan is just to keep winning and to win it to win well as well. You know, October 25th, after that I leave it down to, you know, the other powers that be to make the calls and do what they need to do.

It's been, like I say, it's been a bit frustrating as of late. There's been a lot going on, which is out of my hands. And I think I'll speak for myself and a lot of the other boxes that, you know, my stablemates, it's been frustrating. But we are over the moon to be back on TV, to be back fighting. This is the first show of many good shows and great shows, which I think is going to come over the next couple of years on the BBC. And we all look forward to it. And that's all fighters want to do really, isn't it?

It's fight. You can't just go to the gym, Steve, and go to the gym and go. go to the gym and go to the gym. We know no end product. We want to fight. That's what we love doing. You know, it's all about being under them lives. I personally can't wait to be back in there and do my job.

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of Financial Services. So that was Fraser Clark talking to me. And as I hinted at earlier, I'm going to speak to a man that's full for the British heavyweight title, full for that glorious Lonsdale belt. But he didn't fight at a time of the crazy heavyweights, which we have at the moment. That man's Clifton Mitchell, Clifton. Thanks for joining me. Fighting for Lonsdale Belt.

It's a dream, isn't it, for most of the players? I'll tell you what, yeah. I boxed for it in 1994. That's how I boxed for it, right? And a boxed a, probably a freak is at everyweight, which, you know, God rest his soul. But six foot nine, that time he was a big heavyweight. No, it's a normal everweight now.

Six three was, yeah, no, he's normal. Sixthry was big then, weren't they? Yeah. I like gold as well, so, you know, that belt was, I would I put that? Winning Longsdale belt is like winning, like the Olympic 100 metre final. It's a special belt, right? It's a special belt.

It's an iconic belt. For me, as a kid growing up, you'll want to win the British heavyweight title. I try and explain that to people, and they go, nah, no, because everyone's got world titles. I said, no, trust me, some of the best fighters in Britain

have wanted that belt. And the ones that didn't win the belt, bought one. Bought one. Bought it. Nass was desperate to buy, he wanted to buy Ryan Rhodes' bill. You remember during your time?

I think Johnny gave him one, actually. Oh, did he give him on the end? Excuse me. No, it's true. To Naz, he just wanted that bill. He had all those world title bills. He just wanted that Lonsdale. Yeah, a million percent.

And I think people don't really understand, you know, when you're too in professional, first thing you want it, everybody's reward a table, but when you see it, that longsdale belt, that's what you want, you know, first and foremost. Because it feels different, isn't it? Yeah, and you know what?

Having that, you know, you've got to win it. I think the board make it really hard for you to keep it because you've got to win it. Then you can defend it three times before you keep it. And used to be two defences. Yeah, now that... I remember Henry Cooper had about 10 of them. He had three. He had three of them and he ended up selling them for peanuts.

Yeah. Because he was skinned back in the mid-70s. He ran out of money and he got offloaded them and they offloaded for nothing. Literally penis. Like 40 grand each or something. I'll tell you what, another heavyweight. You know, he boxed Mahmahadi, you know, and I don't think that people really understand

how good Henry really was. Really good fire. Pity he had paper skin. Yeah. He was a really, really, really good fighter. You know, unless you go back and look back in history and look at old videos and see how really good. Old BBC films.

Yeah, old BBC films, you know. You'd never know how really good this kid was. Sorry, I couldn't call him a kid. Sir Henry. Well, he was only 30-7 when he retired. He just looked really, really. Yeah, he did. He looked like he's 60.

Yeah. Listen Cliff, don't go anywhere. I'm just going to speak to the man that's going to be the opposite corner to Fraser Clark, Jamie TKV. Now, I tell you what, I like this kid, an awful lot. He kind of gets dismissed. He kind of gets overlooked. So I sat with him, and I tell you what, we had to start with his losing British title fight last time out, which was slightly controversial.

Here I am with Jamie TKV. You know, I got hit with a shot that I did not see. The ref obviously tugged my arm and was giving me. instructions when and I opened my arms telling him that I'm not the one holding so I can I so you didn't hear him say you didn't hear break or anything like that no he said break he said break and tugged him my arm so he's talking to me when Adelaide was holding me at that point so I went to look at him and then Adelaide took his chance and hit me on the chin put me down first him I've ever been down as a pro even as a I've never been hurt and uh because you were hurt

when you went you you're bidding up to me yeah yeah yeah I mean it's not normal. Yeah, of course. You get hit with a shot that you didn't see. That happens. So obviously I got up. I was recovering, but then the referee gave me a count. He came with a barrage of punches, which I know didn't land.

Everything was going over my head. If you don't believe me, you can go back and watch the video slowly, as slow as you want. Yeah. He then uses arm. I think one of the shots missed, and he kind of came back with it and pushed me over, and I fell forward. And then when I got up, the referee then decided to waver it off. My team obviously protesting.

Very angry. Ben Davidson and Barry's member were very... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they weren't the only ones you saw. Everyone saw them. The commentators and the fans, everyone saw what happened. And then the board then made sure that I got my immediate rematch. And, yeah.

I know you're honest. The moment you went down and when it was stopped, obviously you could continue, but really were you okay to continue? What's your gut feeling, James? Yeah, I was okay to continue because... These things happen. People get hurt and still continue.

They can be out of it and still continue. You're fighting. Your heavy weights as well. Exactly. So definitely if I was given the right time to rest and things were done properly, yeah, I would have been able to recover and finish the fight properly.

It's not Big David Adelaide. It's not that big. We just call him Big David. It's just normal size. It's Big Fraser Clark, who is quite big. Not a rematch, but a rematch for the title for you. Is that disappointing and it's not Adelaide? Or you're just okay with it being a title fight period?

Listen, at first I was very disappointed that it's not Adelaide because I felt like I needed to put it right. A bit of justice. Yeah, exactly. But the fact that I'm still fighting for the British title, that's enough for you. It's enough for me. You know, I can go on and win the British title and that's the most important thing. And then we could circle back and meet Adelaire at another time.

Yeah, I mean, if you beat Fraser Clark, a rematch with you in Adelae is a really terrific, terrific fight. So it was an angry end to the fight. You got a bit of justice with the fight being ordered. Now it's Fraser Clark, a very different fighter than to David Adelaide. Of course, yeah, yeah. A very season, I'll call him a very well. I'd say, yeah, yeah.

You know, I've always known him from the amateurs. Of course. He's done a lot. He's done well. World Europeans, Commonwealth, Olympics, you name it, he's been there. Yeah, exactly. So, look, if you asked me this three years ago,

I would have said so many bad things about Fraser, but that's time I's going on, me and him. You've got a bit closer. Yeah. I won't say close, but we're cool. So what had he done three or four years ago? I'm going to ask you now, now you've said that. You've set yourself up.

Let's imagine this is 2021. So Jamie, what do you think of Fraser Clarke? Okay, I'll say 22. 2020 then. Do you know what it was? I'd fought Jake Don't know. Jake down, no, same opponent. Yeah.

And obviously, I knocked him out. And then the commentators or, I don't know, he was interviewing him, asked what do you think of Jamie, TKV? he dismissed me and said he will use me as a tune-up just a little quick fight so I said okay if I'm a tune-up, it's fight so I've turned that into a personal thing

well understandably yeah yeah and because I was teasing him he got upset and we'd been going back and forth for some time for some years but then over some time it's kind of called down but it's only because of the statement that he made live on TV saying that he'll use me as a

for me that's disrespectful as a fighter yeah of course yeah so That was the whole reason, but it's kind of died down a little bit and we're cool right now. Yeah, well, that could all change as we get closer and closer to a fight. Not that you guys have to worry about weight, but you still get fractures. You still get that last four or five days before a fight.

All fighters, the matter of what weight they are. They still get ready to fight, not to talk. And they want to just get in the ring. So can you beat Fraser Clark? 100%. You've seen Fraser Clark in really hard fight. The 12 rounds with Fabio, done if you were ringside,

that done if you were there. And then, of course, being hit with a one shot in Saudi, which I kind of dismissed because it really was one shot nothing had happened in the fight. But I think the draw with Fabio, I think that's an interesting fight

because that was really tight. It showed how tough he was. Yeah, good point. That's one thing I took from that fight because he did go down, I think, in the fifth round. Yeah, quite early in the fight, yeah. And he got up and he was still in there.

At the end. Because Fabio was relentless. Fabio was Fabio. Yeah, Fabio was Fabio, but he was giving it back too. So it wasn't, it was a tough fight and it just showed how tough he was

because he was able to do that for 12 rounds so that impressed me and I know how tough he is so I know how this fight is gonna go well I spoke to both of them after that fight and they both obviously believed they'd won it I was in the dressing rooms with a pair of them and I've got to tell you

Fraser might have been in better Nick than Fabio was and you know Fabio's famous for having that engine and coming on late in a fight that was great but there's a couple of fights on your record that people overlook that you get a good few rounds Franklin Ignatius and then is it Michael Webster

Those are yeah yeah Those are those are seasoned heavyweights Okay we're not saying they're world class We're not saying their number 10 in the world But they're proper heavy those are the fights Where heavyweights become heavy weights Of course yeah yeah Those were good wins

Yeah good wins Especially knowing Those two fighters fight tough opponents anyway Yeah exactly They came to win They came to in other ways As they say rip up the script But I was too much

much for both of them. When I got in there, I showed my level against those guys, you know what I'm saying? But they're good fighters who have fought good 50-50s and proved themselves as well. So, yeah. So when I look at you, Tim, you like you have a foot in both camps. A foot in, like, obviously you fought for a British title on TV. You're fighting for another British title on the BBC. But you also have a foot in a 50-50 world.

And not many fighters in title fights have had a foot in a 50-50 world. You know what I mean by that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what, you're trying to say having 50-20 world. 50-50s. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it doesn't often happen. No, the first 50-50 Fraser Clark had was against Fabio Wardley.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first 50-50 David Adelaide had was against Fabio Wardley. I mean, the first 50-50s had was against David Adelae, whereas you had a couple in obscurity, so to speak, you know. So it's good. Yeah, it is good. It's built me into the fighter that I am today. But, yeah, it's put me in the position that I'm in too, you know. If I wasn't having these 50-50s, I probably won't be fighting for a British title.

That's true. So it's put me in the right place at the right time. And what does it mean to you fighting live on BBC 2 on a Saturday night? Because it's been a long time since anyone fought live on BBC 2 on a Saturday night. Yeah, I mean, it's been over 20 years. Over 20 or years, yeah. Yeah, so it's special. 20 years and five months.

Yeah, so we're making history after us being the first headline fight, first heavyweights in a while. I mean, it's a blessing. I'm excited about it. I'm actually really excited. Blessing is the right expression. Now, I've got to ask you this. All fighters dream.

When they're either boys or when they're little girls Or then when they turn professional They always dream about being in these enormous fights The heavyweight division at the moment Is a fantasy land I mean you've only you only need a win and a half Two wins and you're operating in this I mean can you allow yourself to dream a little bit

I beat Fraser then I can fight Adelaide I mean do you allow yourself to dream a little Are you too grounded James? Do you know what we all dream but the thing is We can't dream as much if we don't get If we don't deal with the task at hand. Then start another dream. Yeah, then start another dream.

Once we deal with this task, then we're going to start another dream. But we all dream. We're all dreamers. So, yeah, yeah. And just finally, you do have enough boxing brain. You do have enough boxing school.

You've got enough amateur experience. I was looking at that tournament in Morocco where you four times in about six days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good going. That's good. Not Fraser Clark pedigree, but it's still pedigree.

It was. After that, I went to the World Championship. So it's like the African games is like the European games, the Asian games. But, yeah, that is world level. So, like, the guy that box in the finals in the Olympics. There's a bit of a secret past to you. I mean, on paper it just looks like, you know, you're with Ben Davidson and Barry. You come from nowhere.

You've had a couple of half-decent domestic fights. Then you look a little bit closer. There's a little bit of pedigree there. Yeah, of course. Yeah, definitely. I've had 72 amateur fights. Get in. Don't tell anyone.

Keep a secret. Yeah. So I mentioned Ben there and Barry. You're obviously that gym. Now, I know that it's not X-rated sparring every single night, but AJ's in the gym, Fabio's in the gym, Moses Atama's in the gym, Aloysius Jr's in the gym, you're in the gym.

That's a lot of big guys. You must all meet at some point, even if it's just in the dressing room. Yeah, of course. No, of course. Like I've mentioned before, we all spent time with each other. We talk to each other. Everyone's friends, you know?

Like, there's no beef amongst anyone. we're one team, which is a good thing to have. You know what I'm saying? Everyone supports each other. No matter the division, we all support each other. And does Ben try and create like a club atmosphere there? You know, you talked about having 72 amateur fights, so you understand the club.

I know he told me he does, and it seems to work. Is that the case? Yeah, of course, yeah. It's like a club. It's like a little family in that sense. Good family. Yeah, it's a good family. I don't want to feed them.

It's a big family. They're coming home every night. Seven of those boys coming home for supper. Especially me, if I get digging in, boy. You got no food left in the kitchen. Obviously, on the same night as you, Fabio Wardley's in the fight of his life against Joseph Parker. Now, Barry Smith's your main trainer, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I'm assuming Barry would be with you, Ben will be over there. So Ben will have to miss you. Yeah, of course, yeah. But they're tuning in, like, we're all working together. Like, even when I'm doing stuff, Ben's coming in and telling me stuff, Lee Wiley. So it's like we're all working together no matter what. So it's like I'm going to have them there. In spirit.

You know, on Lee Wiley, he's the technical guy that does all the brain stuff. Now, Moses It Tamer told me about seven months ago, he said, Steve, and he leant forward. He went, Steve, listen, he went. He said, so with Lee Wiley, and he's looking around, he went. Yeah, he said it's like cheating. It's like cheating. He knows everything. It's crazy.

Is that true? Yeah, I mean, everything he says, like every breakdown, like every tendencies that you may not know as a a fire yourself, he knows. And it's crazy. just from him watching and analysing. So he's just a special person to have in the gym, and he's great to have in the gym. Listen, he's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Next time we'll do some of the stories I heard about your history. That's the next time. Thanks, brother. Thank you. So Jamie TKV there, a refreshing to talk to him. And I think that fight when the David Adelaide fight,

I'm pleased the board order an immediate rematch, because it was a bit tricky. Yeah, it was a bit tricky. And I feel that, yeah, I think it was a little bit, I can I say, you can't blame, you cannot blame. David Adelaide. I think the referee was a bit of novice in that.

He pulled his arm back and then he got clipped. But I also think that TKVs in the gym with heavyweights. Good ones. Very good heavyweights. But, you know, sometimes that can be a hindrance to your own self because you can end up a spying partner in these gyms. That's an interesting point that right there. You know, and I think you can end up a spying partner.

The wrong mentality? Yeah, and just think, oh yeah, I've got through that. Instead of going in there trying to. improve yourself as a fight. Could that be a factor on October 25th when these two meet? It could be a factor and it might not be, but also, you know,

it's just something to think about. If you can't get out that sparring mentality, I'm not saying the spying partner mentality, but if, but, you know, I think that they're both at a situation now, there are crossroads, aren't they?

Yeah. You know, whoever wins this. It sounds ridiculous for two guys who have had 12 or 13 fights each, but they kind of are in the modern world. I'm saying it how I see it. And, you know, I believe that I've got a good eye for the sport.

So I think, for me, heavyweight boxing. Frank Warren has said to me, there's boxing and then there's heavyweight boxing. Yeah? So you don't want to be a gatekeeper for anybody. You want to go on and win these fights and move on. They've got to ask you a question. A couple of years ago, 60-odd thousand people, Tottenham Hotspur. It was Anthony Joshua defending his world titles against Alexander Ousick.

Alexander Ousick's already in the ring. And Anthony Joshua's making his way to the ring. And just as he gets up on the apron and he stops. And everyone knows about this. everyone talked about it, and he has a chat with someone. And that someone would be you. You and AJ are having a chair, and you're showing him a shot, and he's asking you about a shot.

It seemed ridiculous. What actually happened? I know you knew an AJ for a while, but what happened at that moment? I think... The time stood still. There's two ways to look at this year. I thought that... You're not being a diplomat here, right?

No, no, no, no, I'm not being debiltered. I'm thinking, I'm trying to give myself, big myself up a little bit. Yeah, you can do that, you're allowed to. What I'm saying is, is that he's asked me, how would you about fighting this kid and I'm like And this is in the room

As he's climbing through the ropes And he's in the ring He's leaning back on the ropes And he's gone How would you fight this kid? And I said to him Get in And get out

Get in and get out Get in And I'm saying Well if he's had the respect To ask me Yeah I thought Yeah

He must have some respect For my opinion Because he wouldn't ask anybody You understand But me and him was having A little bit of banter What people don't know At the way

On the way to the way Minning was messing about having to have been to spying boxing. So it's not just that he was unconfident, but there's a lot of things I've said about that fight that didn't go right from, you know? And one final question, Cliff, was Fraser Clark working for your company

when AJ won the title against Charles Martin? And it's Fraser Clark who tells AJ to calm down when he drops Martin for the first time in front of 20,000. That's why you're on the show today, Cliff. Yeah, thank you. You're dropping bombs, go on tell me about that. Yeah, well, you know, Fraser and Fraser's dad for a very long time. he lives about 10 miles away from me

so he's boxing got his security badge it's a good apprenticeship for him to come and sit get close to ringside to actually see to get used to what it's going to be like and what's watching our corners work watch how the teams work so he gets to see it backstage for a stand

on a stand before he actually gets in the ring so you know it's a bit of a how can he call it is an apprenticeship yeah it's a what do you call it a test run a test run if you want to call it listen Clifton Mitchell it's been an absolute delight and a pleasure

talking to you. I will come up the Derby because I only live about eight minutes down the road as you know and we'll do a proper we'll do a proper

day before the football heartfelt Clifton Mitchell thanks so much thanks obviously to Cal to kick the things off

and obviously to the two fighters TKV and of course Fraser Clark a British heavyweight

title fight back on the BBC 8 o'clock till 10 o'clock on Saturday October the 25th I wasn't sure

I'd ever get to say that on a pod It's been that type of day. It's been that type of year. It's the heavyweight business. It's different than the boxing business. As Clifton just said, I'm Steve Bunce and this has been a very special Five Live boxing. Five Live Sports. And what a game of football. It is to kickstart this new WSLC. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game.

Lucy Bruns, welcome back. What one-liners do you think would make the best? rugby player. Me? Listen. With the BBC Sounds app. Nearly home. Isn't home where we all want to be? Reba here forreelter.com, the pro's number one most trusted app. Finding a home is like dating.

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