5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Buatsi on training in lockdown, Olympic what-ifs, and the Yorkshireman who fought Ali

Episode Date: March 30, 2020

2016 Olympic bronze medallist Joshua Buatsi explains how he's staying in shape during the lockdown, and reveals his thoughts on news that the Tokyo Olympic are going to be delayed until 2021. Then, Mike and Steve discuss an interview from the archive with Richard Dunn, who fought Muhammad Ali in 1976.Mike's fight recommendation of the week: Marquez v Vasquez 2 (2007) Steve's book recommendation of the week: The Devil and Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches Homework: watch Liston v Clay (1964)

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Five Live Boxing. And thank you for joining us once again on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunts. And although the arenas around the world have fallen silent, Steve, there's still plenty to talk about. And since we last got together on Monday of last week, the Olympic Games have been postponed. Should have been taking place in July and August this year in Tokyo,

but looks as if there will be happening in 2021 at some stage. Well, you knew that, Nosodamas Costello, because you told me when we were sitting watching the boxing at the Excel, the last day, the last hours, the last minutes of boxing. You told me then there's no chance the Olympics will be taking place

and you're absolutely right. I don't know about you, Mike, but I've been busy answering phone calls, busy answering texts and emails. I must have made contact with 50 people from the boxing business, some of whom I've not spoken to for several years. I'm not sure if this can continue

for the next three months, but right now it's fantastic. And I've been on air half a dozen times across the past week, Steve, with the various boxing issues. We'll discuss the implications of the Olympics postponement with the bronze medalist from Rio four years ago, Joshua Buatsi. But what else have you been up to, Steve, in the interim? Are you bored yet?

It struck me just this weekend for the first time. It's not as if it, you know, it's ridiculous to describe everything that's happening as a novelty, but getting used to not having events to look forward to didn't really affect me until this past weekend when I would have been at the O2 Arena. Look, not a monumental show, but Josh Kelly against David Avanesian.

And it was just a chance to get back to see some live boxing yet again. And it was just this, the first time it struck me was this past weekend as to what we're really missing out on. Well, I went to the press conference for that about six weeks ago, and it was a fantastic press conference, to be honest for you.

In fact, it was a really lively conference because Adam Booth and Neil Marsh, Adam Booth, of course, looks after Kelly and Neil Marsh is a lawyer who represents Avanessian, and I'll be absolutely straight. It was a great con-com as I was looking forward to, but I wasn't going to go there, Mike. I was going to watch Shaq-An Pitters

fight for the vacant British light heavyweight title in Coventry. So that was going to be my day. But this week, the first week of April, was going to be absolutely unincredible. Milton McCrory and Colin Jones on Thursday night in Canuck. Yes, I was going to be in the middle. Richie Woodle on my left, and then on my far right, Milton McCrory, and then on Richie's left would have been Colin Jones.

And then I would have had one of those ultimate boxers on the Friday, and then another live boxing night up in Manchester on the Saturday. So, yeah, it's just getting, it's, listen, it's hit home a long time ago, let's get it right. But when you're missing back-to-back nights of all sorts of different boxing, that's when you start to take it very, very seriously. in my study at the moment, Steve, as I was last week and likely to be for the podcasts for the foreseeable future. You sound like you're in a dungeon. We're on this Zoom chat. Do you know what that is? Yeah, well, I'm Zoom and I'm Zoomed on every single appliance, Mike, trust me. I turn

the kettle on and I'm talking to people all around the world. That's how it is. I've got Zoom on my phone, zoom on my iPad, and Zoom on this, my coal-fired old laptop. This last went to Las Vegas. I'd say when Ridic Bo was boxing, and you think I'm joking, I'm not. If I search through I will find Riddick Bow and Evander Holyfield fight reports on the machine that I'm using. I've got the fanciest microphone in the world. The reason why it sounds like an echo chamber, Mike, is I'm in a room that's completely wooden, wooden floors, wooden beams all over the place. There's a lot of wood in here.

I'm going to have to start pulling curtains, going somewhere with some carpet, and get some soft furnishing, and maybe put some eggshells on the wall, the old trick that we used to have in the music centre at the school I went to, and I'll try and make it sort of acoustically more friendly, to be perfectly honest with you. Well, coming up today, a ton of your emails. Thank you so much for getting in touch. And as we mentioned last week, Steve, we'll hear from one of the four British heavyweights to a fort, Mohammed Ali.

It's a real comical interview. It'll give us all a lift at a time where we need it. And to get a feel for how today's boxers are coping with the shutdown, we'll be talking soon, as we said to Joshua Buatzi. But the Olympic Games are off, Steve. Just a couple of issues around that. and the game's off for the first time since 1940 when they were also coincidentally scheduled to be held in Tokyo in Japan, a year after the outbreak of World War II, of course. Steve, in the aftermath of the cancellation of the European qualifiers, which were being held at the Copper Box.

Two weeks ago today, we've run our way there to watch Charlie Davison and others. Two Turkish boxers and a Turkish coach have tested positive. Three members also of the Croatian team who were present in London have. tested positive and there's been a lot of criticism of the organizers, the Olympic boxing task force as it was, coming from Aiba sources. IAiba, the former governing body of Olympic boxing who were suspended by the International Olympic Committee in May of last year. Aup Gozgech, the president of the Turkish Boxing Federation, who's also on Aiba's executive committee, has been pretty forceful in his criticism. But that's the issue, Steve, isn't it?

because they have been suspended by the International Olympic Committee, their views are greatly diluted in terms of their value. Well, their views are biased. It's as simple as that, Mike. They've had enough time, and we chronicled it. We just about broke the story, to be perfectly honest, over the last two in a bit years. And Ayap Gozek, who probably, and I'm assuming he wasn't actually working in any capacity in London

other than being part of the Turkish delegation. That's if he was even there. because one of the things that the IOC have implemented with their task force is they've got to handpick, cherry pick, IEBA officials to work. The referees, they handpicked. The judges, they handpicked. And the officials at ringside, and there's plenty of those at major international, quotes, amateur boxing event. So I'm not at all surprised that this attack on the IOC, it was ridiculous. The IOC, the IOC, the IOC have done this, the IOC have done that. There's a full investigation by the task force, the IOC task force. In fact, one of the six failures has already been proved to be a false positive, one of the boxes.

So it's no longer, I think, four boxes or two boxes that are fouled. It's only one boxer that is officially found. And the stuff from Ayat Ghodzek, who in addition to being an Aiba executive committee member, is also heavily involved. He's one of the vice presidents of the European Boxing Federation, I believe it's called, which is IEBA's branch in Europe. So anything he says is going to be biased. Although I will say this, Mike, on the Friday before that event started,

on the Friday before the first boxing began at noon on the Saturday, there was a really big push to call this off. And we knew when it started on the Saturday that there was every chance. The two things happened. The first would be that fans would be denied. It would just become spectators, members of the teams and media. So no actual fans, no one paying. at the door. We knew that was a possibility, but I guess the bigger possibility was that it would

be, it would be scrapped. We're perhaps all wise after the event, but they went ahead with it, Mike, the boxers, some of the boxes, the Italians had been in country for two weeks, Mike. The Italians had been, I think, based up in Manchester for two weeks and lots of other people had prepared. And it went ahead. And of course, we can all, we're all smart, we all genuses, we all know more than we should know after the event. But I don't, I don't remember reading any or hearing anybody say on the Friday, this event should not happen. You and I both said when we spoke, because you went to the first day, Caroline Dubois was in the first contest in one of the two rings on the very first day, first contest, first punch front, Caroline Dubois. And we both spoke

to each other and we said there's a great feeling suggestion, this won't finish. But we weren't calling for it to be called off, Mike. That's after timing, if you don't mind me saying so. And there's plenty of that going on in the business. And on that last evening of boxing on the Monday, Peter McGrail and Galal Yaffai qualified for Britain and the International Olympic Committee announced last week that in all sports, every competitor who has qualified for the Olympics this year will retain that qualification status if the games are held next year in 2021. But let's talk about the implications now, Steve, with Joshua Boatsy going well as a professional in the light heavyweight division unbeaten in 12 fights and who, of course, won a bronze medal at

the last Olympic Games in Rio in 2016. He's on the line now. Joshua, I hope you're keeping well. Yeah, not too bad, I mean, you're not too bad. I'm a bit bored, but less about, yeah, not much I can do, man. I can imagine. I can imagine. We'll get on to that, Joshua. But first of all, I wanted to talk to you about the Olympic Games, which in the past week have been postponed in Tokyo.

Still no news of when they will happen. the talk is of 2021. I want to take you back to Rio and 2016. If at this stage of 2016, Rio had been called off and postponed until 2017, would you have gone? No, 100% I still would have gone. I definitely would have gone, but I mean, yeah, it's just a whole delay in preparing.

And the thing is you aim to peak about, you're aiming to peak for this year's Olympic games. so to then hear that it's been you know, because I'm going to spend it to the next year it's mad like I don't, yeah, I don't even know how to think about it man and I think I saw Steve, I saw you in Rio

that year, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I did and I remember talking to you and I said, look, I've had a good run coming up to these games, I've won my last 14 fights I'm fit, I'm 100% everything's gone right and you were like, here's your chance, just take it.

So I think, you know, it's even mad, sorry to change topics. Like, I've even spoken to some of the boys on the team and that, and some of them are really upset that it's been changed. You know what I mean? For them, they've prepared to make it this year, and then now has been made another year. And just reading the comments from other athletes

and other sports and across the world, no one seems to be happy with it, but there's an issue that's going on that's much more important than anything, I believe. So sorry to dive up, but as you said, man, if I got to 2016 and they were like, yeah, but it's been changed to 2017, but it would spin my head, man, if I'm on this year.

And as you say, look, there's a wider picture here, but by the very nature of what you do, you have to be selfish. And as you say, these boxers now will be feeling that, especially those who felt they had momentum like you did, that this is a serious lost opportunity. Yeah, momentum is everything, man. And like I said there, I had momentum going into Rio.

I think also, actually, these things happen. And, you know, you just have to just make sure you stay on it. I'm sure when things are resumed, people will have enough time to kind of get in the shape that they need to get into and sort of prepare for it. But it's a world event, man. It's something that's happening that's affecting the whole world. So the most important thing people can do is to not take a personal.

and that's one thing I try not to do if something happens or if something goes wrong I try not to take it personal because it's not just directed at me and I think that's the best way that people can kind of handle this

and it's particularly cruel for Peter McGraw and Galalia Fire because they qualified in some of the last contest they knew the boxing would be cancelled they still got in the ring and they actually qualified

for the Olympics so for them I think it's particularly cruel in my opinion and Josh? No, Steve, I think it's better for them because they know... Oh, you do? Because they can relax.

Yeah, because they know they've definitely qualified whenever the games are. I feel more for the guys and women that prepared that they didn't get to fight in the qualifying fights. And I feel particularly even worse

for those that even have just that one fight because when it starts all over again, they still have it qualified. Whereas Peter and Gila their spot is secure no matter what. The games can be. in 10 years in the next year or two,

they've guaranteed that spot. They're going. Yeah, and there's no better relief than that, man. I swear to get out the next day. The same day, sorry, and I said, you must feel on top of the world. And he's like, yeah, Josh, and so there's a weight off my shoulder.

And that's true. And Peter said the same thing. Like, he said, he's on top of the world, man. So I think for those two, rather, I feel like the weight is off of them, whereas the other men and women that they didn't get the chance to box or having qualified,

that pressure is still there. It's a good pressure, but that pressure is still there. Do you think for those who might be dithering about whether to turn over Joshua would consider age? I mean, in 2016, you were 23, so you could argue that you had time on your side

to wait that extra year. That might not be the case for everyone. Yeah, it isn't. But I think overall, when you look at it, there's not going to be any events happening any time soon. So it would be a different ballgame If let's say pro boxing

We're doing shows right now Or amateur boxing weren't doing shows Then you could argue and say okay Well I can get an experience as a pro And still go to the Olympic Games But the truth is, everything is on hold So if you turn pro today Which you can do

It doesn't mean you're going to fight within the next month Or two You know I mean I feel like everything is on hold So if I were in the situation I'd wait and I'd go to the Olympic Games being in the LinkedIn is one thing but trying to

you have the chance to then become an Olympic medalist so I think it's worth the weight but you are right age is important man in a sport where I think if you're young and you've got energy that gives you more of a chance

to win and to do well age is important but I'm sure I'm sure the guys and girls will kind of weigh out their options and I hope they make the right move but you know there's no experience such as going to the Olympic Games

it's the biggest event in the world well and being there as an athlete and potentially giving yourself the chance to win a medal. It's like changing, man. And as you mentioned, Joshua, that there's unlikely to be any big events for some time. And so that might reduce the level of temptation for those who might be turning professional. I mean, for you, if you look at your record now, the last time you box was in August of last year. So by the time you box again, it might be a year since you were last. in the room.

Literally. Yeah, I feel like it might be a year or so. And even leading up to this, I was meant to box the weekend just gone. And I was a bit upset because I had a 10-week camp. And it was quite hard.

I was like 10 weeks, you know, I've been trying to get back in shape, get back into it. And the week, I think two weeks before I found out my fight got cancelled. And I remember this

because I was going swaring. And my train was like, oh, should we just stay home then? And I said, no, like I still want to swar. You know, still want to get on just in case there's a chance

and this event still goes on. But yeah, like, it's affecting everyone and not just myself, so I can't take it personal. As I said, it's not as though other boxes are having fights, and then I've been kind of isolated. It's every boxer, so

I just can't take it personal. Josh, I've been speaking to different boxes and trying to get a gauge of what they're doing, whether they're just running, shadow boxing, doing stuff. what are you doing? What are you doing? Are you sneaking out to any gym on your own?

What are you doing? No, I'm just strictly running outside. Yeah, running outside just in massive open spaces. Even where I'm running, there's no people. Do you know what I'm running and run where I live? But obviously, I'm doing longer runs than that. So it's quite refreshing. There's nothing around me.

There's no, like, encounter with anyone. And I think that's the most that you can do, to be honest. even I thought about doing a boxing session but if you have a padman you're going to be closer to the two minutes aren't you exactly? Of course. Because of that I've kind of cancelled that as well.

Yeah, so yeah it's just literally just getting all with the runs. I think the most that I can do. After the run I'll be like a little circuit a body weight exercise, do some shadow boxing but there's not much that can be done. Thankfully of the last of sent some equipment

to my house as well So I've got the old kettlebell now and my best friend gave me a bike so I've got an indoor bike as well. Josh, what about when we get closer to it? Let's say things are going to get back to normal mid-July and we're told we can do events

in August. But you'd need, assuming you had a decently competitive fight, you'd need what? Four, five, six, eight, ten weeks of spa and what would you need? I think it's always good to have a long camp, Steve. but I think that long as my fitness is there or thereabouts then you'd only need like a few weeks of sparring.

But as always any athlete we want as much prep as possible so in a time like this is just about ticking over I'm trying to make sure that my body doesn't get in a state of just being lazy as long as it's ticking over, it's moving. My lungs are kind of working daily than I know when it's time to step it up, I can step out for a few weeks and I should be in good shape. when you spoke about the prospect of sparring a few weeks back joshua did you really understand how serious this outbreak was about to become because i think a lot of people were like you i

certainly was that i thought life would be back to normal very soon but this is really blown us all away yeah it's it's big mike and i think i didn't think it was that serious and you know the the lot of photos that's been circulating the internet and the one that stood up to me was when the media says, you know, this is serious, stay at home. And the population are like, no, it's not that serious. But then when boxing says, actually, there are no boxing shows, as a box on, as an athlete, you're like, oh, maybe this is serious because there are no boxing events. Like, you take it more serious when your industry kind of says, you know what, nothing's happening.

Yeah, I don't think I anticipated it being as bad as it is, but now I'm taking it very serious, you know. and unfortunately even yesterday I had a phone call saying sadly and any yards that passed away I was like I was like is this a prank like are you serious you know what I mean like and I even spoke to Yard

like I was like I'm sorry to hear man like my thoughts are with you and your family because to I don't know anyone that this is affected I know Yard but we're not like we're not like the best of friends or anything but I know him to say hi to him and to hear that that had happened to his family

a family member of his then I'm like this is done. definitely serious. Like, people are dying from, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it's a lot more serious than I think anyone I think of paid. And also Spencer Oliver's uncle, Colin Webster, who was a coach at the Islington Boxing Club. He also died and died.

I think he died the same day as Anthony's father. So as you say, is getting closer. Suddenly you know people whose friends, uncles, families and loved ones are dying. Yeah, yeah, that's sad, man. Yeah, it's sad. I'd like to say, stay at home. And for me, I'll stay at home. I'll go to the shops to pick up important things like fruit and veg.

And then after that, I'm coming back indoors. You know, with that in mind, what sort of sport do you think you'll come back to? Because you spoke there about, you know, the fear of being in groups at the moment. What do you think the fan's appetite will be? And you could almost flip that and say, would you be happy in August and September soon after, if we are all allowed to congregate again, would you be happy to go somewhere where there was a crowd of 20,000? people at let's say that the O-2 arena. Do you think the fan's appetite will be there?

I thought about it and I thought, you know, do you wake up one day and then they say, oh yeah, the virus no longer exists and then everyone just goes back to normal or like how does it work? And I'm quite, I'm curious to see how it's going to happen. I don't think it's going to go back to the way it was straight away. Do you know what I mean? You can't get up next weekend and they're like, oh yeah, the virus is banished. so there's a show at the O2

everyone show up to it. No, you know, there's going to be people that are still going to be paranoid and, you know, taking precautions like they should be. So I think it's going to take a lot longer than we think for everything to get back to normal and for people to be, you know, back to normal and comfortable and being in larger numbers and that. How do you test them? How do you know that everyone hasn't got it?

I don't know. I don't know. Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you, Joshua. remember when we were, you might remember this, we were on the balcony of a hotel in downtown New York as you were about the box on the undercard of Anthony Joshua against Andy Ruiz last year. And you told us about the first fight that you ever watched as a youngster in Ghana was the fight of the century, Muhammad Ali against Joe Frazier. Give us before you go. Let's put out there to everybody listening, a fight that you recommend that we just have to watch off the top of your head. It has that fight, the fight of the century when you said it.

the 5th of the century, we've also got Riddick Thorne, Van de Holyfield, we've also got Ken Norton and Larry Holmes. Good fight. Do you know it? There's a lot of old-time head with fights by enjoying watching. Altura getting award the trilogy, if you've got a lot of time at hand, which we all do, actually.

Do you know what I mean? So there's a lot of fights that you can sit down and watch. But for me, it's always as the fight of the century. 15 rounds, Ali Fraser, back and forth. How Arlie gets up in the 15th run from a left foot like that? I couldn't tell you. I mean, it's the last round of the fight,

but he gets up like he just tripped up. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, man, there's a lot of fights that you can watch, but at a time like this, as much as we can't be out there doing everything, as athletes and as fans of the sport, it gives me time to sit at home and just watch and study. So, yeah, man, I'm watching a lot of boxing right now.

You know, you know what, Mike? You know what we've just found out? We found out what Anthony Joshua and Joshua Baratzi did with all their downtime in Rio. They watched 70s heavyweight. smash each other a bit and that's an absolute fact that's a fact you know what's meant this steve i'm not a headway but i'm so intrigued by watching them i love watching those guys man ken norton larry homes um ernie shavers the whole joe fraser arlie i enjoy watching all of them

man trust yeah they're great aren't they yeah if you could take a single round to a desert island the last round the 15th round of larry holmes and ken norton wouldn't be far away from your choice yeah exactly yeah definitely but guys are Appreciate that. Thank you so much for calling me this. Joshua, stay safe, stay well, and hope to see you back in the ring soon with everybody. Thank you. See, very much. See, later, big man.

Thank you. Another young boxer well versed in his classic fight, Steve, the fight of the century. I remember him telling us about that on the balcony, as I said, in New York last year, which brings us to what we were going to get to at the end of the podcast. But your book, last week I mentioned Sugar Ray Leonard and Other Noble Warriors by Sam Toperoff and you had your fight that everybody had to go away and listen to. This time we'll flip it around. And the fight that I'm going to suggest this week, Steve,

is the rematch between two Mexicans, Israel Vasquez and Rafael Marquez. They fought four times between 2007 and 2010. It ended up to two two. I'm pointing towards the second fight. It's the rematch. And one of the rounds, round three, is one of the great round. of all time. But watch the rematch in August of 2007 between Israel Vasquez and Raphael Marquez, Raphael, the younger brother of Juan Manuel Marquez, who had those four fights against Mani Pacquiao,

of course. Fasquez against Marquez, they fought four times, just call up the second of those four, in fact, call up any one of them, but the second of those four and that third round in particular. So the book to listen, the book to read this week, Steve. Well, before I move on, just to say, I think in America last, weekend. Showtime, repeated, if not all of those, certainly a couple of those Vasquez and Marquez fights, which would have been quite infight. I'll tell what I'm going for, Mike. I'm going for, not necessarily a boxing author, a guy called Nick Toshis, who did write some, he has written novels, but I like the way he delves into history. He wrote a book called The Devil and Sunny Liston,

about Sunny Liston. I'm just going to read you a little bit from it. This is after Liston had won, had retained the World Heavyweight title, beats Floyd Patterson, then knocks him out exactly a year later and takes a couple more seconds. And this is, this is Tosh is talking about the sort of day after. It was the end of the road. Here, history took the pen from the player's hand, where, for a moment, a heartbeat, no matter how tentatively, it had seemed to rest. What remained was epilogue and epitaph. Cawls like wind of death songs. America did not want Sunny Liston as a champion. It's hard to discern any merits in Liston, wrote Dan Parker in his column of February 13th, 1964. And America saw Lister much as Parker saw him, a sinister creature full of hatred for the

world. Get in there, Sonny. That's a nice welcome. You win the world heavyweight title. In your first defense is a first round knockout and you get called a beast and a monster. No wonder we had a persecution complex. Poor soul. Great stuff. And that ties in with somewhere that we're going to next week. More on that at the end of today's podcast. But this postponement of the Olympic Games, Steve, got me to thinking about what ifs in sport and talking about what if's related to the Olympic Games. I mean, for example, if you flip it a year back or a year forward with a number of fighters down the years. I mean, look at Anthony Joshua wins gold in 2012 in London, Steve. Would he have been ready to win gold in 2011? Had the games taken place in

2011. I know we're going back rather than forward as the postponement with Tokyo has led to, but would he have been ready a year earlier? Well, I know one thing, Mike, had he gone over before London, let's say London had been cancelled, would his career trajectory had been the same? Would his pocket, would his bank account be the same? Would we have had those two fabulous trips in 2019 to New York and Saudi Arabia for his two fights with Ruiz because going into the Olympics, Mike, remember, we forget this.

You know, he wasn't one of the big seeded boxers. He wasn't one of the guys we thought, I was going to get a gold medal. We knew who was going to get the gold medal. It was going to be Savannah Marshall because she was the world champion. It was probably going to be Tommy Stalker. He was the number one in the world.

And then we looked elsewhere and we thought, well, maybe he could nick something. He could nick something. A go-go might nick a bronze. I mean, and the best we could think was if Joshua gets a good draw, he'll get something. Nicola Adams, we thought, might get to the fight. which you'd get beaten by the Chinese girl.

So if you go back, let's go back to the April before the London 2012 Olympics. And the Olympics have just been pushed back a year. Now, AJ's going to be under pressure. Don't get me wrong from professional people. And is he going to stay? Is he going to go? And to be absolutely perfectly honest with you, had he have gone professional and not stayed, you know, bear in mind,

that's what you've actually said there straight away, didn't he? I would have stayed. I would have stayed. My gut feeling is Joshua would have stayed. But who knows what would have happened in the September, the October, the November, with the pros just wearing away it, wearing away it, and talking to him, talking to him, talking to him. And the Olympics would have suddenly not looked closer. They would have looked further away, Mike.

Because you get to November. You ever been in a competitive contest since April or May, sorry, probably February or March, if you excuse me, and suddenly the Olympics are still seven months away? Or are they? Might they be pushed back again? and then there might have been a second wave of offers. It's really intriguing. I was saying that though,

I don't think Joshua had that many contests. I think he was like Boatzi. In the year after London, if you fast forward a year, I think Joshua made two contests. Baratzi only had one contest in that 12-month period between the end of London and turning professional. And we can't overlook the fact that in 2011, Joshua won a silver medal at the World Championships,

in Baku later in that year. Earlier on, he'd been beaten in the European championships in Ankara in Turkey in June. So the Olympics would have fallen in between those two tournaments. So a guessing game as to whether Joshua really could have won gold had the Olympics happened in 2011. Richie Woodall, Steve, in 1988, was selected by the head coach, Kevin Hickey, above Neville Brown, who lived not too far away from him in the Midlands and who had beaten him in the earlier rounds of the ABA national championships that year.

One that fascinates me, Steve, is Amir Khan, who goes to the Olympic Games in Athens in 2004 as a 17-year-old, gets all the way to the final. It is beaten by one of the greatest boxers I've ever seen, amateur or pro, Mario Kinderlan. But what if Amir Khan's draw is turned on its head? So instead of meeting Kindlein in the final, he gets drawn against him, first of all. then we don't hear about this 17-year-old sensation for some time to come. We would have heard about him at some stage because of his talent, but not as a 17-year-old Wonder Kid coming out of the Olympic Games with a silver medal.

And he wouldn't have turned pro live on ITV in front of five or six million viewers the following year when he fought Kinderland in the basement at the Reebok Stadium. He wouldn't have had that spring ball to get where he is. He would have, as you say, he would have ended up pumping out of the Olympics early on. In fact, Mike, if you don't want me saying so, he should have gone out in the second round because he manages to beat a local kid, a Greek kid who got a wild card entry in the very first, on the very first day, if I'm not mistaken. That's not bad.

That was a nice draw. But then the next draw, he's fighting Dimitar Stilianov, who's the European champion, okay? He's the European champion. And I am telling you, Mike, one of the smallest books in boxing are GB boxers who have beaten reigning European amateur champions. It's a tiny little book. And my Olympics were about to finish. think that contest was on the Monday or the Tuesday.

And I'd spoken to my wife and said, look, you better start looking for flights. Because if this kid goes out, I've got no work here. I'm not going, I don't want to be on holiday in Athens for 12 days, doing no work. Well,

not only did he beats Dilianoff, Mike, he stood him on his head. And I think, I don't know if you, did you and I do the comms for that. Because I did five of me at calm flights for five live in Athens.

And I did him with five different commentators. And I'm trying to think which one I did with you. I did one with a cleaner. I mean, it was that desperate. It was that desperate. I'm a color man. Mike. I'm not a commentator. So I've got to

clean him just to set them up for me to hit them out of the park, so it speak. No, that was, that's a really interesting one. But here's the flip side of that, Mike. Had Athens been delayed a year, then Amir Khan might have been a better fighter because he would have gone from being 17 to 18 and a half. And we might have

seen an exceptional fighter. And he might have beaten the old man that Kinderland was fast becoming. Hey-ho, he might have even made more impact, albeit a year later. And when you talk about your Olympic Games, might have finished. The point you're making there, Steve, cannot be underplayed. Amir Khan was the only British boxer that qualified for those Olympic Games. Stag, and the list of the box, the good

quality boxers, the really good fighters that didn't qualify, that did go to the different events, went out to Pula for the European championships, then went to different events around the globe trying to qualify. It wasn't through lack of trying. They just didn't do it, but the kid did. And also what he squeezed in there, Mike, this is sometimes. I've forgotten against the advice of half of the GB coaches, but with the backing of one or two powerful people, he went to South Korea, I think in May, and box five times in 10 days to win the under 19 world championships. People forget that, and part of that was because I remember talking to Amir about this. This is sometimes people forget this about Amir, how smart he is boxing

wise. And I remember him telling me, would the Cubans try and box 25 times before the Olympics? They want the competition. So he went out there, had those five fights against many of his coaches' advice, came back with the world title, the world amateur title, under 19, and the gold medal. Perfect preparation for the launch pad in Athens. A couple of other issues, Steve, relating to the Olympics. Keeshaun Davis, the American that I've been really keen on for a couple of years, did an interview this week with our colleague on the BBC World Service, Adi Adi Addoin,

saying that he's 70-30 in terms of things. thinking about turning professional before the Olympic Games next year. He's highly likely to be selected for the USA team, but he's saying now that he wants to turn pro. So that might be a what if question in the future. What if Kishon Davis hadn't turned pro? Would he have won gold at the 2021 Olympics as they now look set to be in Tokyo? And one last one, Steve, Caroline Dubois, just turned 19 and was really pushed over three

rounds in that first contest at the European qualifies won it very comfortably, but it was tired enough at the end. And I just think that her chances have enhanced by the delaying of the games, because she will have time now to grow into senior competition. We should remember that that fight there at the copper box, the first contest of the entire qualifying competition, was her first as a senior. And Mike, she was under a lot of pressure. I mean, good pressure, the sort of pressure that you get when you, A, have done great things. And B, can really back them up. But it came from, in some ways, it came from nowhere because it's, you know, she's been a name that we've been talking about for two years and people have picked

up on. She won young sports personality of the year last December, which she should have run it 12 months earlier. And she was under pressure on that, on that Saturday. And she thought, she fought a little bit like that, even as you say, she won clearly, but she made, it was kind of hard in a bizarre kind of way. So going forward, Mike, she can take a deep breath. I think she would have been better had she fought patkin in the finish number one the number one seed the European champion on the Tuesday would have been probably the first fight of the cancelled day so it'd be day four when needs take up again I think she would have been better then she would have been more relaxed but next year she'll be more relaxed and what's more Mike the age will be perfect she'll be a beautiful mature 20 that's good

Last week, we were talking about our favourite still photographs after that wonderful email from our 80-year-old friend. And down the years, we mentioned Richard Dunn in his fight against Muhammad Ali back in 176 in Munich. I've dug out an interview that I referred to last week, which was recorded in Bradford back in 2013, as Richard Dunn recalled that the most memorable night of his career. Looking back through your book, Steve, the big, fat short history of British boxing. you cover Richard Dunn extensively. Only because you have to, Mike, because that, you know, Dunn himself's involved in some decent skirmishes

and his wife, Janet, is involved in even more decent skirmishes. But the whole Dun-Arley fight fiasco, whatever you want to call it, in Munich, is ridiculous. I mean, there's parts of that that you actually can't invent. I mean, it's impossible to invent.

I mean, Ali, for instance, 24 days before the first Bell in Munich, 24 days before, it had a really hard, tricky, difficult 15 rounds in a world title defence against Jimmy Young. Just consider that. And less than 40 days earlier, Richard Dunn had pulled off something at the Royal Albert Hall. Of course, he wasn't meant to do. Richard Dunn wasn't meant to be the man in the ring that night against Ali. It was meant to be a German guy called Burr. August or August.

But Richard Dunn had smashed them a bit in three rounds, but they'd already, because of the way the R. Lee Roadshow were, they'd already booked the Olympic Hall or the Olympic Hallen or the Sports Halland, what you want to call it, in Munich. I've been there for a world title fight a few years ago. It's lovely. I love the place. It's where the boxing and Olga Colbert stole the show.

So Tia Filio Stevenson, Tiafillo Stevenson and Olga Corbett, two of my 70s sporting idols, both won gold medals, both performed inside that arena. That's where Richard Dunn, Paul Arley, but he wasn't meant to be there, Mike. It was meant to be Big Burned. Who's not that good? Obviously, not Richard Dunn smashed him in three rounds. Another one of those, what if, Steve? What if Richard Dunn hadn't beaten Burnt August in the previous fight?

Then he would never have got his chance against Muhammad Ali. It was the British Commonwealth and because he beat August, the European champion, Steve had recently won that title. Ali, this was post-rumbling the jungle, of course, post-thriller in Manila. as we would come to learn, it was coming towards the end of his career. No, it was. I mean, okay, the best Ali had already taken place.

The best Ali, you could probably argue, was 10 years earlier, 8 years earlier in the late 60s. Let's get that right before his ex-ar. But what we have here is an Ali staying busy because not long after he fights Richard Dunn. He then goes 15 rounds in New York with Ken Norton. As I say, 24 days before the fight with Dunn. he ends up fighting, he ends up going the 15 rounds with Jimmy Young. He's still competing. He's still

fighting against these good fighters. And what he is doing there, and there's a little bit of boxing history, perhaps as this isolation period continues, we might delve into it. It's something that people don't really talk about because you're not meant to say it. But one of the things that Ali was certainly doing in 1976, Mike, I tell you exactly what it was. It was avoiding George Foreman. And avoiding him big style, Mike. George Foreman had been chasing, taking our adverts in papers, trying to get that rematch, trying to get the rematch with Ali. Why do we never talk about that, Mike?

We've done shows where we talked about rematches. Why do we never ever talk about Ali and Foreman too? Why is that? Do you know? There's one for the future and many other ideas to come in the emails we've received over the past week or so. But back to Richard Dunn, Steve. He did get his chance against Muhammad Ali. as I say, this is an interview recorded in Bradford back in 2013 with Richard Dunn recalling that night,

the 24th of May, 1976. I was 31 to be quite truthful, and I was ready for it. Don't forget, I didn't start boxing until I was 20 years of age, so I never had all the stuffing knocked out with me of being a young child. I was a big lad when I started. I was 18 and a half stone, and I got down to 15 stone. I worked my socks off, and I worked hard,

to get to that position. And what a fabulous, fabulous night. You wouldn't believe it. It was just brilliant. I tried to win, obviously, because that's what I'm there for. I mean, it would have been, like, it would have been sensational if I had become everywhere the champion of the world.

A kid from Yorkshire, you know, scaggy ass, you know what I mean? They did nothing. And all of a sudden he comes through and does that. It would have been great. But obviously, I've got a good idea. I didn't get hurt. I just got a good hiding.

And I enjoyed. enjoyed every minute of it. If you can enjoy getting a good hiding, I enjoyed it. It was fantastic. What was Ali like during the build-up? By then, we were well-versed in his taunts, his poetry, and all that he brought in terms of hype to the build-up to a fight. What was he like for that fight? You know something, Mike? He never interfered at all with me. I trained, and then he trained after me. I mean, he had spies watching me, obviously. But he never insulted me, he never called me names, he never did anything. I don't know whether it was because he liked me or it was a new tactic.

But whatever he did, it worked for him. And there are all sorts of stories related to the fight. One of them is that you employed the services of a hypnotist called Romark in the build-up. Have you ever met him? Oh, my goodness. That was no today. with me. I'm lying in bed one afternoon. Well afternoon, you know, I mean before the fight, which was at 3 o'clock in the morning, so I was trying to get some rest. And one of the papers,

one of the daily papers, brought this, I can only a donut as far as I'm concerned. He come in and I'm lied on the bed and he said, I'm going to, he said, I'm going to tell you a story. And when I finish the story, you'll be fast asleep. And when you wake up, you will be this and you'll be that and you'll go down and you'll fight for that and you'll beat him and everything. Do you know what he told me? Once upon a time there were three bears. Honestly, I couldn't believe it.

I closed my eyes and started breathing really heavy and he stood up and he said, he's asleep now, leave him, and he'll wake up at so-and-so time and it'll be right. And as soon as he went out of the door, I opened my eyes. And I can't tell you what I said

because it's rather rude. But if he ever comes to name me again, I said, you know what I mean? I'm like a hypnotizer. but it'll be with a left hook. But it's almost typical of what would happen around a Muhammad Ali fight, that there are stories that you just couldn't believe unless you'd actually been there as you were.

And it was extraordinary because every time I went to train, he'd have four spies in the gym. And I'd be trying to train and they'd be saying, you know, I'm shouting out things, you know, and you think, what the hell's going on here? And these were his spies that were doing that. like you'd get messages. You know what I mean?

He's going to do this and he's going to do that. Well, I'm the type of guy that doesn't take a blind bit of notice. I just plod on and get on with it. And that's what I did. But how did you feel about your chances? Because you were well aware that nobody gave you a chance. No one ever said that I'd win the British title or the Commonwealth title or the European title.

The British press gave me Zooch of a chance. And I won all three. So why shouldn't I win the world title? I'd just same chances as anybody else. The fight after I'm mine, Ali lost to a man that had had eight fights, professional fights. So he was there to be taken. Leon Spinks. That's right.

He was there to be taken and I never took it and I should have done. And in his previous fight, he'd fought Jimmy Young and not looked that good. He looked awful. It was overweight and I thought to myself he's going to have to do extra training to get that lot off. It might take it out of him. This, you know what I mean? This might be my chance. but it was the fight after.

And it was terrible the fight after. It was slow and he had no coordination. And Spinks beat him. But that could have happened to me. And on the night as you walked towards the ring, you had that attitude in your mind. Because if we look at the most recent British fighter to face Ali at that stage,

it was Joe Bognit a year before. And his attitude was different. It seemed, from the outside at least, that he was bent on survival, whereas you didn't look at it like that. Exactly. What Joe did. Joe fought 27 rounds with Ali. That's a lot of rounds in that. But he never got hurt because, like I don't want to insult Joe because I like him. It's a nice guy. But I don't think he tried like he should have done. He were going to survive and he did. Me, I wanted to win. I wanted to go out of there and knock spots off him. I didn't, but I bloody tried. And you had successes too, but then you got knocked down three times in the fourth round. Tell me about the story of the fight from your point.

point of view? Well, the first three rounds I thought I did okay. But then he must have picked up on something because he just changed his style a little bit. And the next minute, it showed the language, I'm on my ass. And, you know, well, I don't like that, so I got up obviously as fast as I could and down I go again. I went down three times. I'm glad the raft didn't stop it in the third round or the fourth round because I'd have been really

upset. But the fifth round, Ali, really opened up on me. but I still didn't want the rest to stop it. How would you describe, Ali? I mean, having been knocked down five times, was he a really hurtful puncher, or was it more about accuracy and volume? I think you're right there.

It was speed, accuracy and volume. It was very fast. And it was hurtful, you know what I mean? But not enough to knock me out cold. You know what I mean? But it stung a bit. And he said afterwards, graciously, that you were a lot better

than he'd expected you to be. Well, I tried a lot harder than I normally I really put me out and saw into this one I mean it would have been great to bring the title home to England obviously you know, like him second And there's a story about what Muhammad Ali did With the gloves afterwards and there were messages inside

Can you tell us what is the true version of that? He said he wrote a number five in his glove And that's the round how we're going to get stopped in But on the other glove were around three. So if they'd have had any more gloves, you know, I mean, I mean, it's just one of those things I don't know,

and I really didn't care to be quite truthful. How was Ali with you after the fight? It was the same as he was before the fight. It was just a nice, friendly man. I got on really, really well with him. As you do, all we are is sportsmen. You know, I'm going to battle. And when the battle's finished,

you're back to being pals again. And that's how I felt. What about for you in the aftermath, Richard, your career ended a year later. Was it a feeling of it won't get any better than that? Well, it couldn't get any better than that, could it be quite truthful? You know, I'm fighting for the world title

against the greatest fighter in history. When that ends, I think you lose a bit of heart after that. I had two fights. I lost them both. I think my heart had gone out of the game. You know what I mean? That was the pinnacle of my heart. career and it was fantastic I got stuffed there's not many people can say they've been in

there with him and how should we remember the man that so many sports fans came to revere but you actually shared the ring with him give us your thoughts on Muhammad Ali the man and the boxer wow he's asking me a question there because I mean as a man it's fantastic as a sportsman he's done double fantastic. He was what to say he was, the greatest ever, and I was privileged. I earned it, mind,

to fight him. And no matter what anyone says in history, Richard Dunn fought for the world title against the greatest fighter ever. Wonderful memory, Steve, from Richard Dunn. Just a couple of points to make there. He said that Muhammad Ali fought Leon Spinks next.

It wasn't next, actually. It was almost two years later before he lost to and then beatly on spinks in the rematch. But that was promoted, Steve, back then 1976 by none other than Bob Aram, who we are still talking to to this day about huge fights. And that was back in 1976. And Richard Dunn earned 100,000 pounds, which today equates to around 725,000 pounds. And he went on to fight Joe Boogner next time around and got smashed in a round. Yeah, that was Joe Boogner's. best performance, some would say, because him and Dunn, despite what Richard

was saying there, they had a really fierce verbal rivalry. It went on for an awful long time. Stoked, of course, by Richard's quite wonderful wife, Janet, and Joe got in the ring that night and took it all out on Richard and then basically vanished out the face of the earth, which was

quite bizarre. One or two things to pick, I'll be usually one or two things to pick up on, Mike. I'd say dozens of things to pick up on. First and foremost, you're right. Richard Dunn. Richard Dunn can go forward and say, you know what you say what you're like i thought for the world heavyweight title and i went in with mohammed ali that'll do me and i'll tell what that will do me as for romek how long we got because romek is absolutely genius he he was he was tabloid fodder he once tried to drive across

london north to south mike he got half a mile blindfolded he said he could steer the car without looking he crashed now the guilty person here the man responsible for all of the romek stories The man responsible for the numbers in the glove store. He's a man that's written over 100 books, a man called Norman Giller. We should get Norman on the show one day. Norman is, was a publicist. He worked for the Daily Express,

but he was a publicist for Ali, and he worked very closely with Frank Bruno later in the 80s, and also he worked all of the time with Mickey Daff Jarvis Astaire, Mike Barrett and Terry Lawless, the old boxing cartel, legal cartel. And it was Giller that had dragged Roemark all around around Munich and one or two of the confrontations were brilliant, but I've got to just read just something, Mike, because I've got to get the actual quote completely and utterly correct.

As I say, there's all sorts of versions about the numbers in the gloves, whether it was a note in the gloves, and Norman Gillers says one thing, and Duff says another, and Dundee says another, and Dund says another, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. There was something in the glove. We love that. It might have been nothing in the glove. There was something in the glove. But how about after this, okay?

When it was all over, okay? And when it was all over, Romark rushed in to see Richard in the changing room. Now, Romark's distraught, Mike, because it's no good laughing. I'm watching your laughing in your study there. Romark was a genuine hypnotist guru. He was Yuri Geller before Yuri Geller had even seen a spoon, okay? And let me just explain what happened, okay? He rushes into the room.

Richard, Richard, he says, and he grabs hold of. He really grabs hold of Richard Darnie says, I let you. you down, I'm sorry. I made your fists turn into iron, but I forgot about your chin. If only Roma could know a little bit more about boxing, if he had worked on Dunn's chin, who knows, who knows where we would all be now? We could have had Richard Dunn as World Heavyweight Champion. And Steve, a Buncey-type asterisk or tangent here. Burned August, the man that Richard Dunn beat for the European title previously to get the chance at Ali, was killed at the age of 36, Steve, in a motorcycle accident in Australia in 1988 when his bike was in collision with a

kangaroo. Tragic story died at 36, just eight years or so after he lost to Richard Dunn in that European heavyweight title fight. And talking about Norman Giller, Steve, I dug out this intro that he reminded us of in a piece that Norman wrote for the Sports Journalists Association website. and it was the intro to the piece in the Guardian written by the great Frank Keating ahead of that fight. And it says,

tonight in the Box Haller, Munich, Muhammad Ali of the United States of America and the universe will defend his world heavyweight title against Richard Dunn, comma, of 23 railway cuttings, comer, West Yorkshire. God, I love it, son. Listen, those boys in the 70s and the 80s,

both the Americans and the Brits had it. There's a little footnote, Mike. In 1978, the Richard Dunn Leisure Centre opened in Bradford. That closed permanently last November. And there's a woman called Mrs. Ayers, who worked there from the first day it opened until the day it closed, doing various jobs, including swimming instructor, trampoline instructor, and receptionist. I tell you what, Mike, we're offering a service here today, aren't we?

It's public broadcasting service today, my son. And we're going to set some homework very shortly, Steve. but before then time for iTunes reviews and the emails that you've been sending in. Matt from Salford says, follow Bunsey in the days when he did the podcast with Barry Jones, even bagged myself a signed Muhammad Ali T-shirt that I still have somewhere,

listen to the pod driving to and from work. And also from Hoppers 55, can you do a show on the top 10 fights of all decades we should watch on YouTube, where we're rationing those two, one a week, but we're getting lots of ideas from Eddie Hearn, from Joshua Boatsey, as we heard earlier on. this one from Andy Perry, Steve.

Hi guys, here's a challenge. If I gave you the power to design a fantasy fight night with unlimited budget and no global politics, four undercard fights, one main event, who would you line up? My wife and I, while away long car journeys playing that game, personally, I'd enjoy a doubleheader, Fury against Joshua, with White against Wilder as the co-main event. For some reason, my wife always insists that Josh Kelly is on the card, not sure why. Thank you so much for continuing the podcast through the crisis. It's a source of comfort as my business has shut down

and I've had to cancel Sky Sports subscriptions, etc. Thank you very much, Andy, for getting in touch. So, Steve, just to be different then, Andy goes for Tyson Fury against Anthony Joshua as his top of the bill. For my main event, I'm going for Errol Spence against Terrence Crawford for all of the belts at Welterweight. You say? No, listen, I've got no problem with that as the main event.

I've got no problem with Fury and Joshua as the main event. I tell you what, I've got a half soft spot for another heavyweight, not Dillion White, who by the way I'm now friends with, but not, not Dillion White. But how about, I like Joshua and Wilder, Mike. I really like that. It's a sort of degree of desperation. I like that one.

But my main event, I think I can top yours. If you don't mind me saying so, top trumps, because it's all about top trumps at the moment. They matter what you do, no matter how hard your life is, we heard there from a guy whose business has folded, and everyone's got a top Trump story at the moment. You can't win this. I mean, every single person in the business at the moment is 11a Reef,

and you know the 11a Reef story. So I'm going to go to Yvonta Davis, Vassal Lomachenko, provided John Devis can act sensibly, providing Vasel Lomachenko, still got that bit of desire because I'm not, you know, we spoke to him last year. Remember when he was in London about to fight Luke Campbell. And, you know, there was a faraway look in his eyes, Mike,

when he was talking to you and when he was talking to me, it was a bit like, you know what? I fancy packing this all up going out with my hunting dogs and tracking down wild pigs and killing them the traditional way. Dogs at the back, manned at the front, stab it through the heart. Trust me, Mike, that's how they do it.

In the Ukraine, that's how they do it. It's the old-fashioned way. So, he had that faraway look in his eyes. So that's what I'm going for, Davis and Lomachenko. Did he want undercard fights, Mike? For undercar fights, so these are my suggestions, Steve. In keeping with the man we heard from earlier on, Joshua Boatzi against

Anthony Yard at light heavyweight, I want to see. Do you like that one? Neoya Inouye against an apparently rejuvenated Chocolate Tito Gonzalez. Will that do? Superfly weight, maybe even at Bantamweight. Josh Taylor against Mikey Garcia. I like that one at super light weight.

Maybe even at well to wait now as Garcia is insisting on fighting at 147 pounds. And maybe this is very close to the number one fight I want to see anywhere, Steve, internationally or domestically. Liam Williams against Chris Eubank Jr. Do you like that one at Middleweight? Yeah, I'm a massive Leon Williams fan

and a massive Chris Eubank Jr. fan and character. I'll tell you one, how about this one? Here's an odd one. How about this one? Daniel Dubois and Joe Joyce. I'm not being funny. If that wasn't made, you'd have had it in your four.

Why not? Too right. It's got everything. Great shout. Absolutely. Slip that one in. Paolo Alves, right, Steve. I've recently tuned in over the past six months or so.

With no live sports to watch, I've taken to YouTube to catch up on some of the classics, and I'm always wowed by the man Larry Holmes, who Joshua Boatsy was referring to earlier on. The boy could fight, skillful, fast, yet brutal when required. His fights against Ken Norton and Ernie Shavers twice are true heavyweight classics. Graham Holmes says just a quick note to say, please keep going with the podcast through this awful time.

Listening to it on Monday night really takes me out of the worries of the day today at the moment. I'd particularly like to hear your stories and views on the Eubank Ben Collins days. That's for one in the future for sure. as I spent many a happy night listening to these guys' fights on the radio in my youth. On a final note, my top three British boxers are one, Joe Kalsaki, two, Lennox Lewis, three, Nassim Hamid. That wouldn't be a long way shy of what you would have for one, two, three, would it, if not necessarily in that order?

No, not necessarily in that order, interchangeable four and five, if you're doing for the last 30 years, that definitely those three, if you open it up another 20 or years, you slinging John Conte, you're slinging Ken Buchanan, and yeah, that would be about it. I mean, how are you going to disagree? I mean, I'm always, I don't know about you, Mike. I'm always amazed when people are absolutely adamant that he is the best.

He's the greatest ever. Boom, it's nothing's as simple as that. You can start making cases. You can start moving them around. You can find a particular fight. I mean, we talked earlier on when we were talking about Richard Dunn. We talked about how Ali had struggled against Jimmy Young. Jimmy Young being one of the most underestimated fighters,

heavyweights in the 1970s. Not great to watch. Nothing flamboyant, stupid about him, didn't kill anybody, didn't go to prison, didn't die on a horrible, gruesome bloody death, which excludes him from publicity in the 70s and the 80s, if you don't mind me saying so. But boy, oh boy, you know, he was, he got in there and he ruined things. And Ali had a real terrible, terrible night with him. And Ali had loads of hard nights. So you can start to break that down. And I'm really amazing people say, oh no, without a doubt. Joe Kelzaki is the greatest fighter in British boxing history. Well, hey, there's an argument for it, but I don't think you can ever attach without a doubt

to any of those lists, Mike. That's why we're in isolation for 12 weeks to work that out. A couple more emails to come, Steve, but it's as if we're broadcasting live here. I've just had an alert to say that the Olympic Games will happen in 2021 between the 23rd of July and the 8th of August. At the same time, we've had an email from the British Boxing Board of Control saying that all shows now through to the end of May have been suspended. So on the one hand, we were talking to Joshua Boatzi earlier on.

All of those Olympic candidates now have another target to aim at, and that might dissuade them from turning professional. They have a solid now block of dates in the calendar, but for professionals like Joshua Boatzi, there's just more uncertainty. More uncertainty. I mean, let's, I'll tell what I am starting to hear, Mike, and I'm starting to get the sort of suggestion.

I'm starting to get this feeling that there, there might be some semi-closed doors, if not full-on studio fights, some semi-closed doors fights. I mean, Eddie Hearn, talking to us last week, was fairly happy about that. And I think that question you put to Josh Barazzi

earlier on about would he be comfortable about going to the O2 to watch himself if that fight was in sometime in June. I mean, if the box-in's off until at least the end of May and the Border Control made that announcement today because last week when we recorded, during our recording,

and they made the announcement it was off until the end of April. So let's assume that at some point in May, you'd think, they'd make a decision on June. And if that decision is boxing, we'll resume in June, is there also an asterisk attached to that? And boxers can start sparring again. I mean, Mike, we're a long way off of having competitive fights

because boys need competitive times. And talking to Martin Bowers, who, of course, looks after Daniel Dubois, and talking to everybody in the Joe Joyce camp, Even if the fights were announced that we could take place from the 10th of June and they rebooked that fight for the 11th of June, they'll need four or five weeks of good hard sparring and bringing in sparring. Martin Bowers, big believer in bringing in American sparring. That's all to be done.

Asterix after asterix after asterix in this week's show, my friend. And in reaction to the Border Controls announcement, Steve Matrum, have announced that their shows in May, of course, are now off. And that means Dillion Wyatt against Alex Paveckin on May the second. Lee Selby's show in Cardiff on May to 9th, and Alexander Usik against Derek Chisora on May the 23rd, they're all off. Now, subject to the developing situation, say, matchroom, White's fight against Pavecquitkin has been rescheduled

to Saturday, July the 4th. Selby's IBF lightweight world title final eliminator, and that's against George Cam Bossos in Cardiff. That's now been rescheduled to Saturday, July the 11th. Usik against Chisora, a new date for that one, is being worked on. So uncertain times for professional boxers in this country for sure. To continue, Steve, this from Scott Claven, who writes in from the Bronx in New York, says,

Glad you're continuing to broadcast during the crisis. I want to recommend a classic fight that I saw recently. Jake Lamotta against Irish Bob Murphy, the rematch in 1952 in Detroit. It's available on ESPN Plus, a rematch, 10 rounds of constant action with some interesting aspects of the period, including during the full 10 rounds. The referee didn't touch the fighters once. In fact, before the opening bell, he told them, Don't make me touch you.

And despite Lamotto's reputation as a brawler, the fight was surprisingly clean and didn't contain any overt fouls or butting or low blows. Murphy had won the first fight a year before in 1951. Oliver Smith, dear Mike and Steve, I hope you're both keeping well in these crazy times. As a third-generation boxing fan, your podcast let me reconnect with my grandfather,

who used to wake up on a Sunday morning and watch the Saturday night fight that he'd recorded through headphones, so as not to wake up my grandma. The week my grandfather died, I sat by his bedside and read the sports pages to him with the latest news on our favourite fighter at the time, Joe Kowalsaki.

Being lucky enough to be from the same area as Carl Frotch, he then became my favourite fighter of all time. And I'm pleased to say I've met him a few times and was lucky enough to be in his family box at Wembley Stadium for Frotch versus Groves, the rematch. Thanks, gents, and keep up the good work. And this one is from Paul Whitfield. Hi, Stephen Mike.

I hope all his work. Well, with sad news, I'm informing you that Ray Jones of Kingswood Boxing Club in Bristol has passed away. That was on Tuesday night of last week. He started Kingswood Boxing Club at the YMCA in the 70s, and hundreds of boys passed through the club, maybe even thousands. His greatest success was Ross Hale, who won a Lonsdale belt outright and Commonwealth titles at Lightwell to having turned pro with Chris Sannagar. I know stories of Ray boxing in the booths at Fairgrounds. I think he was 78 years old when he died. he started boxing at the Robinson Boxing Club in Bedminster in Bristol when he was a boy.

It would be great if he could get a mention at the end of your show for all that knew him and his family. He captured and inspired so many of us over the years, not only in boxing, but in life lessons too. He deserves a mention for all the years and thousands of hours he dedicated to the club. No problem, Paul. RIP Ray Jones, thanks to Paul and to everybody else who's written in. Please keep the emails coming. Costello and Bunce at BBC.comco.com. UK. And next week, Steve, we're going to set everybody some homework to go away and watch the first fight between Cassius Clay, who very soon afterwards became Muhammad Ali and his win over Sunny Liston in February of 1964 to become the world heavyweight champion for the first time

at the age of 22. Not only is that a landmark fight with enough incidents that you imagine at Norman Gila was actually involved, because it's just absolutely endless. but Bob Me, one of the best boxing writers from the last 50 years, one of the few men whose books I take completely for granted, anything he's ever written, I'll just use instantly. Bob wrote a brilliant book about the Listern and R. Lee, Liston, and Clay Fights, which is really worth getting. If you're stuck at home, I'm not sure if it's available on Kindle,

but have a look at that. Bob Mey's book on that fight. One we'll do next week and then, of course, the second one, which we could do after. I think, Mike, you know, in the first few days of this, what we're going through now, people are throwing around a million fantasy fights and a million fights to watch and a million knockouts to watch. I think we've done well with the slow pace we've done this because it's a long haul son. This is a 15 round of this. This isn't a four round.

This isn't an ultimate boxer. This isn't even a learning fight for a young pro like Baratzi. This is an old-fashioned Mahamad Ali, Jimmy Young Slog. And right now, where are we? Round three? Round two? Round four? Yeah, and it's going to go on, as we know, for two months, three months.

In fact, you know, there's some reports to saying this could be a six-month shutdown. So we've got a long way to go, Steve. And on the subject of that fight between Clay and Liston back in 1964, so we're now well over half a century distant from it. We're going to hear a wonderful interview that I recorded with Angelo Dundee, all of 20 years or so ago talking about just that fight in particular. So that's what we've got the chance to do over the next few weeks. Steve, I've been delving back through the archives of the many privileges I've had to travel around the world, talking to all sorts of people involved in the boxing game.

And there aren't many better talkers out there than Angelo Dundee, that's for sure. And we'll be hearing from him next week talking about the night in February of 1964 that changed boxing and some would say quite rightly sport. forever. So do join us again next week. Thank you so much for all the contact that you've had with us on iTunes and on the emails. Keep those coming. Costello and Bunce at BBC.co.com. UK giving us your ideas to discuss great fights to watch, books to read, or whatever. Just keep in touch and we'll be back at the same time next week with Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce.