5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Debunking The Board

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

How does British boxing really work? What does the Board actually do, and where does its money come from? Buncey goes behind the scenes with BBBoC General Secretary Robert Smith. From finances and licensing to disciplinary hearings, he explains how the Board operates and debunks some of the biggest myths.

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Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. So what does the British boxing ball of control do? How does it get its money? How does it deal with violations? There are a lot of unknowns, a lot of myths and a lot of truths. I put the questions to its general secretary, Robert Smith, a former pro from a serious boxing family.

Robert Smith has been in the job 20 years now. It's time for insight. It's time for some answers. It's time to tell the other side of so many stories. I'm Steve Bunce and this is Five Live Boxing. We're in your office here down in Cardiff. There's a whole series of magnificent belts in the last 130, 140 years behind your bare knuckle belts,

the first belt from the National Sporting Club, some absolute beauties on the wall. Then over there, slightly more modern, the Carl Frotch, a laminar from one of his fights with the layout of the seats. I want to ask you some questions, really basic questions, because I've been in this business a long time, 30 years working in it and longer being involved with,

but there's lots of things I don't know, and I have got a copy of your rules at home, the rules and regulations. And I know all the answers are in there, so I should have read up on certain things. But there's all sorts of stuff that the people listening don't know exactly how the board works. How do you generate your funds?

How do you generate, because how do you generate the money to keep a three-story office and the people you've got working? How does that work? Percentage way? Obviously, you can't give me actual stats and things. But just give me an indication of clue. The income is license fees. Boxers, managers, promoters,

all pay. They're setting stone those fees? They're set in stone every year. Obviously, they increase every now and again. The other income is tournament levies, tax. So every single show that takes place. And is that a sliding scale? That's a sliding scale.

Depending on the size of show. Okay. So like a Wembley show. So we base the normal shows, I would say, small shows, on ticket sales, bums on seats, purses, etc. It's all in the regulation book. With regard to the big Wembley shows and Tottenham shows, I negotiate a deal with the promoter beforehand

because it's too complicated with regard to what's being sold. So it's like a lump sum, so whatever it is, 10 grand, 5,000, 50 grand, whatever. Yeah, yeah, we negotiate it prior to the tournament. And then that's it, that covers everything. And obviously the other income is the sanction fees for British championships, English championships, etc. So generally, it's self, we're actually, everything we earn goes straight back into the business.

So self-funding. We don't get any funding at all from the government. Nothing at all like that. It's self-funding. So a boxer, let's say Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua's got a British Boxer Border Control licence. He's the World Heavyweight Champion. And there's a kid just turned pro from, I don't know, Barry St. Edmunds, okay? And he hasn't had a fight yet.

His license cost the same as Anthony Joshua's. Yeah, the only difference would be if Anthony Boxes, obviously, with regard to negotiations of the big shows, that takes into account the purses the boxers are earning. So he'll have to pay more money. Anthony would pay more money with regard to a show, as in the levy. But he's actually having a licence for the 12 months period. He's a set figure.

And what is that figure at the moment? Because it's in the book. Do you know what it is? I can tell you, it's in the book. You're sitting on the book. It's in the book when I said it's not, I mean, I've got a copy of mine. Mine might be out of date, but I've got one. So boxes, boxes license is 184 quid.

Everyone pays every single active boxer in this country plus 184 quid. For the year. promoter is 656 grid, managers is 30040 grid. So everybody pays the same. So if it's a small show at Yulchall with maybe a southern area title fight at the top of the bill, they've got 1100 and they've got eight or nine people on the bill,

what would be the fee for that fight? Is that a percentage or is that, or do you negotiate a deal for that? No, no, no. That would work out on ticket sales, purses, etc. Which is why the border control always know exactly how many people are in there as opposed to what we're told. In theory. In theory, yeah.

In theory you do, yeah. And so for a big fight, again, I'm not trying to catch you out. So for a big show, let's say, let's stick with Dubois and Usik last year. You speak to Frank Warren before that fight and you come to an accommodation. Yeah, we come to an agreement. Or whoever it is in Frank Warren's office is speaking. George, generally now. But, yeah, yeah.

And between George and Frank and Eddie and Frank Smith, etc, we would negotiate a deal for the whole show. And so that's one way of generating the fees. What about for your referees and judges? So let's stick with that York Hall show, a little show where there's an eight round or a ten round of them, five, six rounders, and you send, I don't know what you'd send to that, three or four officials, five officials. Who pays those officials on the night?

Promoters pay the officials, but they're set fees with regard to. It depends also depends on how many contests there are. Oh, okay. Or on the night. Because you've got to send more people. You can start with two referees, just say. And it goes over a certain amount of fights. you may end up with three referees or whatever.

Two timekeepers. We always usually have two timekeepers. But if it's a four-fight, if it's a three-fight dinner show, you have one-time keeper. Doctors change because the minimum is two doctors, one who has to deal with an unconscious patient, etc. You pay for the doctors?

No, everybody's paid for the promoter. But if you were at Wembley or Spurs, you have six doctors, seven doctors. If you're at York Hall for a small show, you'll have two or three doctors. Two minimum, yeah? Two minimum. So it varies depending on the type of talk.

Yeah. And so what can a referee, so let's say, let's say a referee is doing a British title fight. Obviously, if he's doing a British, if it's a British, if it's a British real title fight, I'm assuming that's paid by the sanctioning body. No, promoters paid. By the promoter. But there's a set fee by the sanctioning body. Yeah. That's not going to do with the board.

Our fees are for undercards and British and Commonwealth. Sure. Europe, British, English, Celtic, undercards and Commonwealth Championship. And is there a long line of people wanting to become border control, referees and judges? We've got a bit of a spate at a moment. People are interested. But of course, in Britain, you have to be a referee to be a judge. Yeah.

We don't have a separate judges category. We just have judges, yeah. We're in America, you have a judge's category and a referees category. And more than likely, the referee won't judge. in this country you have to be a referee to judge. Is that, will that change, or are you happy with that system? I'm happy with that system, yeah. I'm happy with that because I think it's beneficial

to be able to referee or to referee and also to judge. So if one of your referees gets called to go to, I don't know, Los Vegas and be the, if you're a referee or a judge, in a major fight, does the board get any money from that fight? No, no, no, no, no. So that's down to the referees, gone away, he negotiates a deal. What will happen is a sanctioning body will ask, us if somebody is available or can we supply somebody.

Don't forget that there's all the sanctioning bodies. Our referees work for different sanctioning bodies. We're affiliated with. So if you're a WBC referee or official, you don't work for anybody else. But if you're WBO, you can work for the BA, you can work for the IBF, you can work for the OBO. IBO. But WBC, you've got to be WBC and EBU and that's it, nothing else. So we will get requested by a sanctioned body to supply somebody

And we go around Got a bit of a rotor Check who's available And they go off the go they can go And the amount of reference They're the they're the top class referee The ones that go Our top category is what we call star class referees

Then we have A class referee So a star class referees Then A referees B referees and tradies So you start off to be a referee Go to interview before your area Relevant Area Council which there's seven,

asked relevant questions, your knowledge of the sport, then you'll start off sitting at ringside scoring fights. Yeah. Then after a while, the area council will consider your scores compared to licensed referees. If you're good enough,

you go into the ring as a practical where you're not scoring the bout, but you're just refereeing. Someone outside scoring it. If you're good enough, you get recommended to the referees committee and the main board to become a B and then become an A,

and then if you're not going to, good enough if you're lucky enough, become a star. But that can take 15 years. Yeah, exactly. No, no. And so it should take 15 years if you don't mind me saying. So, I mean, it takes that long to be a fighter from scratch to where you are. So I've got no problem with it taking that long.

Is it hard, Rob, to be seen as an independent group when there's all sort, you know, when you're accused of this and you're accused of that, you've got to, you know, you've got to be friendly enough of the people you're working with, but not too friendly so that people of snapping you coming out of a discotheque in Monte Carlo at 7 o'clock in the morning, you know, which is, by the way, would be a lovely thing to be able to do. The idea that I'd be up at 7 o'clock in the morning walking out of a discotheque. So I can do it now. If I can do it now, certainly in the week off.

No, no, is it harder in the modern world with the amount of sort of social media out there for referees and judges and board officials to be seen as independent? You get accused of favouring other people all the time. I mean, only this week we'd turn down a boxer because of a... Well, we couldn't allow a boxer to box because of a medical query. More than likely going to be resolved, but we didn't have enough time to sort it out because it was due to box. And the promoter says you would have done it for so-and-so promoter

because they're big promoters. They're just treat everybody and same. And you're getting paid loads of money by them and favourites. We get that all the time, you know. How many times I've been more friendly with one promoter another. I'm very satisfied what we do, you know, swings and roundabouts to a certain extent. You know, there was a period

of time where Eddie was this, Frank's doing this, somebody's doing this, and everybody will accuse you of being friendly with so-and-so because they're the top. But we've got I think we have a good relationship with our promoters. Obviously we have disputes, I have disputes with them. But we're very, it's an unusual

business because we're ultimately a small business but a big sport. It's the same people we're dealing with all the time. You know, I'll speak to the same person virtually every day on different matters. And if you have an argument or a disagreement, it's gone. Next day, it's forgotten, and you move on to something else. You need to develop fixed skin in our business. Also, you fall out and it's that line, it's not personal.

This is business. I don't dislike you because we've had this problem. I mean, they've got a job to do. I've got a job to do. And sometimes it doesn't always work out how you want it to do. Now, recently, every time a judge, a British judge, and you know where I stand on it. So a British judge or a British referee

is involved in what's deemed controversial. It gets blown out. Well, I'm not putting words in the mouth. I'm telling you what I think. It gets blown out of all ridiculous proportions. So we had it recently with one of our refs in a fight and he maybe stopped it early. I didn't think he stopped it early.

I think he stopped absolutely perfectly. And people that should know better on both sides of the Atlantic social media commentators and people that are really genuinely, broadcasters and genuine journalists. Does it dismay you slightly sometimes some of the criticism from people that the expression should know better?

Of course it does. Don't forget, referees are making a split-second decision. Yeah. And they're the closest people in the world to the situation. They're looking at the boxers' eyes and whatever. And looking at the legs are dipped and whatever. So they've got a very difficult job to do. And I would always support them.

It's a bit like the judging people criticising. I listen to the radio. and people making comments about and social media. There's a big difference being sitting five rows back when you're actually doing a commentary and talking to somebody else at the same time. And certainly big difference when you're watching it on telly.

Yes, certainly big difference. I mean, at ringside, you're there. You can see, when you're on the apron, you can see it, you've done it, you can know what it's like. And a lot of the people who criticise have never judged a fight in their life. And you can say to them, okay, well, what was around five?

Well, I don't know about that, but I thought he won this and went. So it does frustrate you a lot, because I know that our officials are honest. And a good decision is an honest decision. You may not agree with it, but that's how I look at it. And I think we have some of the best officials in the world.

Some of the people who come over here think, Christ, they wouldn't have a license with us. So, yes, it does frustrate me. And who are these people to say they're wrong? That's how I look at it. And that's exactly how I look at it. We've got no disagreement on that. I mean, and what I've said when I've spoke to some of the

refs and judges at ringsau when I've, because, you know, I don't always agree with what they're done. I don't think I disagree with a referee because I've been too close to too many death fights and near-death fights to ever second-guess a referee. But sometimes one of, one of what I consider our really good judges will not score it the way I score it. But that's human nature as well. And that's position, and he's not sitting next to me. It's never a guy that's sitting right next to me on my left when I'm doing five live. It's always a guy over there or a guy over there. So that can happen. And I find that there's no sort of understanding with the critics

just that you can get something wrong. And also, what about referee X or Judge Y in their previous 30 contest where you did agree with them? I mean, you're hovering and waiting. See, I told you he was rubbish. She's got that one wrong. Well, there you know. But nobody ever goes back to that.

No, no one ever does. I mean, looking at fights is difficult. As you said about television, I've watched fights at shows and gone back and watched at television. And it's a different fight. Or I've looked at a show, I've looked at a fight. Sometimes when I don't go to a show, if it's on television,

to be fair, I don't watch it to the next day. I'd like to get a night off it. But I go and watch it the next day. I watch it with a sound on, and then I'll watch it with the sound off. And it's two different fights. Because wherever anybody says, you are influenced by the commentators. Yeah, of course. It's a fact.

The other thing is, one of simple example, I remember watching James DeGale against George Groves. And I sat next to Jim Evans. Now Jim Evans had been in boxing all his life One of the people who knew how to score a fight And I sat next to him And I had DeGale winning a George Groves winning He had DeGroen and we sat next to it

But by the tiniest of margins Yeah Tynus of margins So it's very difficult People really struggle with that sometimes They'll say it's an absolute robbery And I say but it was a split decision How could it be an absolute robbery

And the two guys that voted for the guy you think lost Had it to him by a round That's not an absolute. It's really, I mean, just words have just entered the vernacular. So anything, any decision now is an absolute robbery. Have you noticed that? Oh, it's an absolute robbery. It's a disgrace.

But don't figure every round is a fight. Yeah, of course. And you can have the closest round ever and just nick it. Now, the scoring system mainly changing, different thing altogether. Oh, don't get me started. Don't let me go down the 10-6 rabbit hole. You can do 10-9 and it's wide for one boxer and 10-9 and he's just nicked it. So it's very difficult.

So with regards to, let's say, referees and judges get something, that you look at you think, you know what, that was a bit wide. Do you have the ability, or do you regularly call them in and talk to them? Does that happen a lot more than we think? Yes, it does.

We don't make a big meal of it as one people want, but we will get a report. I'll ask for a report how they scored it, how they saw it. If it's deemed necessary, they will be called before the board. Might you speak to them personally? Yeah.

You know, because there's 20 officials here we're talking about, or maybe 25. And you obviously, you know that you know them. Well, I know them. So would you maybe speak to one of them and just say, listen? I've certainly done that. How did you get that? Yeah. And I have no problem with that because that's human nature.

You know, listen, I sat with Mike Costello and I sat with Barry Jones and I've sat with Carl Frampton for the best part of 20 years. We've done thousands and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of fights and Richie Woodall. And we've disagreed six or seven. times, 10 times maybe. But then when we disagree, it's like shocking. And it's like, how'd you get that? Mike? Do you really think that?

And so it can happen with two guys that are sitting next to each other who are friends and I think classified themselves as good judges. It can happen. You can have, you can have a bad night at the office, so I spend. But the thing is, I've never been a referee. I would never want to be a referee, but I've never been a referee. Forget that way. And I've never sat as a judge.

Yeah. I have an opinion. I think I've got a reason. From experience. From experience. But like yourself, we've been in the business virtually the same amount of time. Yeah.

So I've been stalking you now for about. Oh, no, you have actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been stalking in 41 years. As I said before,

I'm a bit concerned about it. I'm glad there's a big gap between us. I mean, at the moment, see, Hey, Patty'll be back soon. He's taking a long time.

Oh, shoot. Yes, and obviously, in the past, then you've had to downgrade referees. Yeah, yeah. That's understandable. So there is a process for that.

What about if a, if again, I'm not fishing, I'm fishing in the dark, I've got no pre-arranged agenda. What about if a promoter, let's say Frank Wall and calls you up, says, Rob, I can't have it. Every time I, you put, you give me X, he does this. Could that happen? And does he need to, does the promoter, not Frank Warren,

does the promoter need to submit that in a league, as a legal documented complaint? We get complaints, obviously we do. If I get a phone call from a Brotus says, I don't want Robert Smith, then I'll say, thank you very much, and I'll appoint Robert Smith. So it's quite as simple as that.

I kind of knew that was going to be the answer. No, but I mean, you know, people, as I say, there's always things that people, you know, if one of their boxers loses, and it's tight, they think they're being robbed. Everybody thinks they've been robbed. And I fully understand that. But, no, they have no influence with regard to our appointments.

But if they can lodge a complaint, at least they've lodged it. So instead of shouting and screaming, you know, and I've had it before, you know what the ball's like. I said, well, actually, no, I don't know what the ball's like because I don't know what your problem is. Yeah, I've always done it. And when you complain, nah, it's not worth it. Well, how do you know it's not worth it?

If you've never done it, how do you know it's not worth it? We certainly have hearings with the boxes, with judges and officials or referees coming in to explain themselves. And boxes? And boxes. If they've done something well. They get disqualified. They call that before the area.

Or from the table or something like that. Yeah. If that's happened, well, you know that's happened. Yeah, that's happened, yeah. I mean, Derek Del Boy Tizora and a few other fights kept you going for a couple of years there, didn't it? That doesn't go to the board. That goes to the charity.

Don't get touchy, don't get touching. Well, that's another thing that a lot of people think that. Yeah. All fines and disciplinary matters go to the charity. Goes to the board of control charity. Yeah, okay. So that goes, that's a separate fund. During the course of the year, we give money out to Xbox's and ex-license holders

who have fallen on the hard times at Christmas, at Christmas, I've just sent out, I think it's about 25 grand, to X-boxers who get a donation for Christmas. I was going to ask you about this at the end, but I'll stick with this now then. So how does that work, well, do, like, does the wife of the boxer or the ex-manager of a boxer contact you and say, listen, Billy's X, Y, and Z, and no specific Billy,

is Billy X, Y, and Z's down on his luck? Is there any chance he could get a few quid, I suppose, would it? Is that literally, Yeah, it works. So you know how charities work. They're very strict. Yeah. So we have the main charity body.

Then we have a grants committee. And the grants committee look at people who they hear about. Yeah. With regard to whose full and hard times. We meet up every November or discuss things every November to see a list of people, see if they need anything. But during the course of the year, we will get inquiries about is there any funds. It's not a lot of money, Steve, but it's something. So at Christmas, as I say, I think it's a lot of money.

I think it's about 25 grand I've just sent out to a number of boxes. Total, not to each box. Yeah, of a total. I think 600 odd quid each, whatever. A nice little thing for Christmas, and it helps them out. It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself,

It's time to put my balls on the dashboard. As he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a baby. billionaire. This is Toto Wolf, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. This week on Good Bad Billionaire, how Toto Wolf made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Because there are some horror stories, and not just fighters that are Loki, some big fighters that are falling out. I mean, Lloyd Hunigan, particularly, I mean,

over the last few years, I've heard horror stories about how Lloyd's needed help and Lloyd's needed So there are an awful lot of us. Could more be done for them? In ideal world, an ideal world scenario. It can always be more. There's always more. It depends,

funding, etc. The charity only generates money from fines. Is that the only way the charity generates money? And the Board's Awards in March of each year, but that's quite small.

The Board gives them, you give them some money. Yeah, so the Board's Awards is to raise money for the charity. Oh, yeah. So whatever... The dinner? The dinner.

So a box for the year, a contest of the year, whatever. Yeah, yeah, of course. So whatever we make on the orchard, and that goes into the charity, any fine from boxer during the course of the year goes into the charity. And that's used to send out monies. But of course, the money coming in is not a lot.

Unless you get at boxes who are doing something wrong all the time. Luckily, we don't get that often. So it's difficult. But of course, there's more we can do. I think the one thing that would be helpful, It's been taught. Well, you know as well as I do.

I can take YouTube down in the boardroom to a old boxing news where they've said they're going to set up a union in 1940, whatever it was. They're going to set up a union in 1970. They're going to set up a union in 1990. It doesn't work. 96, 2000. Because nobody pays. Yeah.

If you want to be in a union, you've got to pay. And people don't want to pay. Now, it's a little bit like we're looking at trying to sort out. a pension so they can go to a pension fund. We can't run it for them, but we can put them in the right place. But again, they've got a pain to it. Now, I've been young, you've been young. Why do I need that?

Yeah. I don't need that yet. Until you get to 50, 60, you suddenly realise you don't have not been paying. I'm already planning, I'm already paying that. So why am I going to pay that? So that makes it very difficult. But we are very well aware of the issues people have. The one thing I would say is they are self-employed.

So there's only so much you can do for somebody and they need to look after themselves a bit better but it's easier said than done. Could the managers and the promoters do more in an ideal world? Well, I don't know what managers and promoters do for individual boxes. I know that my manager made sure I put money aside in case things went wrong. I know that other managers around that time when I was boxing

was taking, say, 100 quid out of a person sticking it in a bank account. So just so the boxer can have it when he retires may not be a lot, but it helps. Because I think the biggest, don't forget, that there's only 95, 96% of the box in this country don't make much money. Of course, yeah. Right?

It's only the lucky ones. So they're okay. More the lucky ones now than ever. Oh, absolutely. If you look at the purses compared to the standard of living or whatever before, 70s, Christ, Christ, it's. Even 15, 20 years ago.

You're talking different, different zero zeros on that one. So there's only so much you can do with regard to that. But I certainly recognize that people have to look after themselves and they need a good manager to advise them. Trouble is, people say advice. Advice can be great if it's right. Yeah. And sometimes advice can be wrong, but it's advice.

But you've got to listen to it and make your own mind. Good or good or bad advice. Yeah. So is there a, and you make, if you do hold these seminars, correct me. But is there a world where the board of control could offer a free seminar on a Saturday afternoon for offering financial advice from some people you deem to be very reliable, who are not looking for custom, they're just sitting here with 20 or 30 or 40. But hey, listen, I wish, Rob, 38, you, 39 years ago, when I started off on my journalism

broadcasting, freelancing route, I wish I'd have had someone who sat down with me and said, Stevie, listen, it's what you need to do, son, put aside 10 or a week. Put aside 10 of a week for a pension. Put aside 10 of a week. I wish I'd have had someone here. Is there a world where you could have an open day on a Sunday? But I suppose there is. But then I look at it this way.

I remember setting up a course, a seminar for antideopin a number of years ago and invited so many, put it out to all the boxes. One boxer came. Wow. One boxer. So, and I did it again, I think two boxes came. So sometimes you flogging a dead horse. And that could have offered them a needed education because of the amount of,

and it just segs in beautifully to where we're heading now. So many anti-doping stories. So now we've changed the process. Yeah. And every boxer who gets a licence now has to go on a Zoom for anti-doping course. Oh, cool. That makes sense. Yeah.

There have been a lot of doping scandals. Not a lot, but there's been enough and quite high-profile ones. The Connor Ben one was an ugly one. It was an ugly one, and it dragged on and on and on. Thankfully, we ended up with the two fights this year. And Connor, at least, it looked like shaking hands or near enough shaking hands. That's close enough. Yeah, yeah.

I've got nothing against anybody No, no, I appreciate that But it was an ugly old situation Especially when the first fight was called off When the when stuff was either leaked or released Or whatever we want to say Was, no one came out I didn't think anyone, anybody came out

I mean, it's in your interest I suppose To think the ball did But I don't think anybody I don't think Conor I don't think anybody In that entire thing In that week before that fight Or the days before that fight

Was called off Could you learn lessons from that We can learn lessons from everything. Yeah, you should do. Yeah. I think the biggest problem you have as an organisation, you're not allowed to say anything. Yeah. Where other people can.

So you're muted. Your hands are tired. Your hands are tired. So when you're being accused of this and accused of that, you can't say anything. So that's fair enough. But it's, you know, I've learned a lot. Yeah. Personally.

It was a very tricky situation for everybody. Would it happen again? We get positive dope tests. I mean, like, if you think about it, Steve, really, and people won't believe me. But we test every week, virtually every week, in competition, out competition. Right. The amount of positives we get is pretty small. Yeah.

Doesn't mean it's not a problem. No. Because every positive test is a problem. But it's tiny compared to what people imagine. What they imagine? Absolutely. And of course, it's the big guys. Obviously, it becomes news, which is fair enough.

But I think we've put in place now with our new educational program, etc. hopefully it's going to help. You know as well as either you can put things there to try to do that, you're still going to get them because people are always trying to beat the system, not just in boxing. I mean, by the way, yeah. Oh no, we're amateurs compared to the other sports.

Yeah, we're beginners. Yeah, so we're trying our best. Is it enough? I don't know. We'll find out one day. And with regards to a kid fails a test in June or April or whenever, and then the people that have tested him,

Do they have to contact you first? They contact the promoter first or the boxer first or does everybody get contacted at the same time? And is it different for different organisations? So if it's UKAD, it comes to us. So the result comes to us. Before the boxer? Well, ultimately same time as a boxer.

Well, I would say a couple of hours we'll get it before, so we're aware of it. But then UK can deal with everything. We don't get involved UKAD deal with it They are the British Boxing Border Control With VADA it will come to us It'll go to promoter

It'll go to the boxers etc But then we hand it onto UKAD So we don't deal with it We haven't got the expertise To deal with these things It goes on to UKAD So UKAD are ultimately actual On behalf of the Boxing Border Control

That's one of the frustrating things is people will come to us and they'll say why are you doing what you're doing it Well we're not doing anything Because they're dealing with it Yeah And that's the fact

So your hands and your mouth are tired at that particular point, rightly so, I think. No, no, no, no, because it needs to be a process. The problem with today's society, they want an answer straight away. Yeah, or yes. And there's not answers straight away. So, so, I mean, that... And you have to be fair to the athlete.

No, no, of course, yeah, by the way. So on the sort of highs and lows, Rob, during your, let's say, during your entire time from working, a bit of clerical work in the Southern Area office right to today, highs and lows, what's been the absolute, What's been the highs and what's been the lows? Either one individual one or a general one. Well, I can do the lows. Go on.

I mean, I've had five deaths. Yeah, death's on. And there's nothing worse than that. No, I've been in the ambulances following them, so. So there's nothing worse than that. And speaking to parents and things like that and dealing with it afterwards, I'll never get over that. And it does affect you.

It affects you personally. It affects the referee. It affects the staff. It affects the referee. It affects family. Because you're at home and, you know, not just the, The Boxers family, which obviously is the most important thing, but my family. So I've been through that.

The highs, there's so many highs. I think one of the best nights I've ever been to was Ricky and Costa Zoo in Manchester. I mean, that was just fantastic. Being locked in at 3 o'clock in the morning. 2 o'clock in the morning, whatever it was. It was just fantastic. And you could have hit him with a baseball back that night. You wouldn't have beaten him.

He would have beaten anybody. And he got to just at the right time. It's fantastic. making. What's about? But he was brilliant that night. But there's been so many great nights. I mean, you know, Clitchko and Anthony.

Yeah. What a great night that was. I mean, you think about, I mean, I'm going to whisper it. This last four or five, six years, it's just been ridiculous. Yeah. You know, we went through the 70s and the 80s and the 90s of a couple of stadium fights and only 25, 30,000. We've had seven years with 80s and 90s, about 10 or 12 with them. It's just ridiculous.

The one thing I do think, in the 70s was my biggest influence, was Conti, Stacey, Dave Greene. and mentor and whatever and minton whatever and Jim Watt and all these things you know you had a world title fight once every six months yeah you know if you were lucky

yeah if you were lucky no world title fight in Great Britain in 1970 well they are a whole years where there whole decades where there was like nine world title fights eight world title fights

and then get in a good weekend now you get a week every weekend you wonder I'm not saying it's the right thing or the wrong thing but I was there when Contney won his world title against Kro-D Armada.

That was a great night. It was, 74. I actually boxed when Magri won the world title against Mercedes. Wembley, I think it was. Of course it was Wembley. Sold out Wembley all the time. Charlie's people didn't like the Royal Abbot

or they like Wembley for some reason. Go figure. That's when he got beat the album a couple of times. Exactly. Yeah, they don't want to fight there. Yeah. So the sport has changed.

And there's more boxes. In the 70s, there was, you know, we got approximately 1,200 boxes. Back then, three or four hundred. Yeah, that's it. You know, people don't believe me. I'll tell them that. And they'll go, no, no, it's much bigger then.

I said, no, well, hold on a minute. If it was much bigger then, why were there only 400 boxes? We're having more shows sometimes in a month now than we had in four and five and six months since then. And people are generally shocked, because that's the perception of coverage. Yeah, we're BBC. Absolutely.

We had BBC, and we had newspapers. We had 12, 15 newspapers that covered John Conti, that covered Minter, that covered Stacey. Whereas we have Doors. Thornton Smith winning a world title in a great fight in January of this year. We're not a single newspaper at Ringsland. It's one of the best performances.

Exactly. It joins the giants. And don't forget when you were boxing on a Tuesday, at the Albert Hall or Wembley, they showed it on the Wednesday, and they showed the undercard on the Saturday. I know. And that's what my dad used to say.

You watch this, you watch our Harry Carp and knows what's coming now because we'd been at the fight on the Tuesday and Harry had been there, but he'd done the... He'd recorded afterwards. That's outrageous. I can't believe you've said that. I know for a fact. I know for an absolute fact.

Which is why both him and gutters always knew what punch was coming. They were clairvoyant. Because they'd seen the fight the night before. Outrageous. I heard the story. I don't know whether it's true. He started doing that after the Cooper Bognor fight.

Oh, did he? Because he said, how could they take the man's title off? How could they take the man's title? And really, that is a... I don't know whether it's true, but that's why... No, no, I believe it is true. Because that's a savage. I mean, that is well...

I mean, I'll be honest of you. If I... did something similar to British fighters in a fight which would be 90,000 at Wembley nowadays and I was to declare at the end that basically Harry Gibbs

solitary scorer in that fight had got it wrong and then use something as a motive as how can they take a man's title like that? I'd be pulled in front of not the ball, my ball at the B but I'd have my wrist slapped. They might try and get rid of me but they wouldn't do it though they'd try though listen Robert's been a pleasure and a delight very

insightful thanks for your time Thanks for your honesty. That was Robert Smith in his office in Cardiff. I've said that like we've left the arena. I'm still in front of him. It was a rainy day, but we went through an awful lot of things. Now, remember, you can always, if you ever see me at a fight, come over and say hello. Trust me.

And if you've got a question, come over and find me and ask me the question. And I tell you what, no one does. Come over and say hello. My name's Steve Bunce, and this has been Five Live Boxing. New Teams. Rules. Red turns. The engines are revving.

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