5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Dubois v Wardley II - Repeat or Revenge?

Episode Date: October 15, 2026

Will the outcome be different when Daniel Dubois and Fabio Wardley run it back at The O2 this weekend? Carl Frampton and Buncey join Stacey Copeland to preview the rematch. Wardley explains the changes he’s made as he bids to become a two-time world champion, while Dubois believes he’s simply too good for anything other than a repeat result. We also hear from Frank Warren, who promotes both fighters.

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Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions, saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get wise. Download the wise app today. Teas and Cs apply. Five Live Boxing. This Saturday night, London's O2 Arena, two British heavyweights, won world title.

Five months ago in Manchester, Daniel Dubois and Fabio Wardley went toe to toe in what was a savage heavyweight battle that will almost certainly go down as fight of the year. It was bloody, it was brutal and at times breathtaking. On that night, Dubois was victorious and with the win, he took Wardley's WBO title. Now they're ready to do it all again. devastating punches with 41 knockout wins between them. Two very different journeys and two men who know exactly what the other can do. Tonight we look ahead to Dubois versus Wardley, The Rematch.

I'm Stacey Copeland and this is Five Live Boxing. Five Live Boxing. Listen on BBC Sounds. And we couldn't really ask for two better sparring partners as company for the next hour. One is a former unified world champion, a two-weight world champion, The Ring Magazine's 2016 Fighter of the Year and one of the finest fighters

ever to come out of Belfast and the other is just Steve Bunce Good evening, Carl Frampton and hello Buncey Of course Carl Frampton was known as the Jackal we can see why Buncey what would you be?

I'm not sure what I'd be Labrador No it wouldn't be a Labrador You've set a very bad tone here I've purposely come on I've done up on extra barns I'm being sensible, I'm being smart and you've gone for me right at the very top of the show. I sent you a text.

We're a couple of good Carl Frampton jokes. You've chose to ignore them and you've gone with the assault, the attack on Bunce. It's too often now. It's starting to get to me. It really is. It's how it is. Can I add one of an accolade into that list

that you round off? Go for it. Zoo Magazine's, coolest man of the year, 2015. I can remember that. Do you know who came second? Go ahead. Tom Hart. Ready?

See, now, if you don't mind me saying, so that's a mic drop moment. You might not leave. No, I was thinking all of us could leave. Just leave dead air for the next 48 minutes. Coolest man. Get in. Well, over the next hour,

we're going to hear from both fighters and from promoter Frank Warren as well. And remember, you can hear the fight on 5 live from 10 o'clock on Saturday. We are expecting Ringworts around 10.30. Now, there was an awful lot of hyperaliener. the first fight, as there ought to be when two British heavyweights go head to head and with the world title at stake. They are two very different characters, very different journeys, which

made for an intriguing narrative as well. It did have all the components for a cracker, but as we know, that doesn't always happen. However, it did more than deliver, I would say, back in May. So first, let's reflect on that night. Carl, it was one of those nights that those of us who had the privilege of being ringside will remember everybody, whether it was, pundits, commentators, journalists were looking at each other with that look as if to say, wow, what are we watching? Just in disbelief at the sheer brutality we were witnessing. For you, where does that fight rank amongst the great all-British heavyweight contests?

When I think of the fights that I have actually been at and witnessed live, I think it's at the top in terms of how brutal it was. Now, Bonte may say other ways because he's been the lot more bigger face than me and seen a lot more boxing than I have. But for me personally, it just felt like a privilege to be sitting there, ringside, watching these two boys put everything on the line.

And it's one of them fights that, if people ask me, I think, in 20 years time, what was one of the best fights you've seen? I will probably still be saying this one. Yeah, I'd agree with Carl, to be perfectly honest with your stage. I could get, you know, sort of esoteric and come up with all sorts of ones that might have been better on a sort of,

a smaller scale. I always think about the Chris Eubank Carl Thompson fight, the rematch, which was in Manchester, which again, I watched that through my fingers, slightly splattered in blood, just like I ended up slightly splattered in February Wardley's blood that night in Manchester in May when they

met. I don't think there's a definitive fight that was more brutal, more savage, harder to watch, but at the same time you couldn't take your eyes off it than what we had back in May when these two first men. I can't I can't readily think of one.

It's funny because I almost don't want it to be as brutal for them, but for us it did make it incredibly entertaining. And for fight fans, of course, but you almost don't want fighters to have too many of those. Especially not five months apart. Until the end, it was absolutely fascinating, wasn't it? But I don't know if you two would agree. I found it uncomfortable towards the end,

and I wasn't enjoying it just because of how brutal, it was and Wardley was taking an awful lot of punishment prior to that though it was fantastic

what do you think? I thought it was brutal absolutely brutal and like Bonsie said and like you said it was starting to get hard to watch

the last few rounds and I actually seen a little clip today from us reacting at ringsade myself and Barry Jones

and Darren Barger Adam Smith and Oh yeah because you were shouting for it to be stopped I was shouting how early we started

maybe maybe from... Was it around 10 when he stood up? And he wobbled after he had the inspection. There are two inspection states. One at the start of the 9th and one at the start of the 10th. And at the start of the 10th, that's the one where when he'd been inspected,

he wobbled, he kind of lost his foot in. So he's been on the stool for a minute. He's had a minute rest and he gets up off the stool, he walks to the centre of the ring, looked like a drunk man. Yeah. And that's when I was kind of shouting. So there was maybe another five minutes of fading.

At that point, if that was the start of the attempt, there was three minutes and 28 seconds left, exactly. And it's an awful long time when you're taking, because we were sat right behind you, Carl, and obviously your colleagues as well. And I think we were feeling very similarly. In terms of the start of the fight, then, Wardley had Dubois down twice. It looked like, yet again, it found a way. What impact, Carl, do you think those early knockdowns had on Fabio? And how close was he to ending it within four rounds? I mean, well, Daniel was on the deck twice.

I mean, he didn't look to be too hurt or anything. But it was a strange scenario because the shots didn't look that big that Daniel went down to you. And especially the second shot, it was almost like there was a conscious decision. He took a thought about it. I'm a little bit hurt here. I'm going to take a knee. And that turned out to be a way he's move in hindsight. But at the time when it's happening, you're thinking,

well, is this a case of Daniel maybe looking his way? way out, but it wasn't at all. Apart from my scorecard, me and Buncey were kind of discussing this prior to this show starting, and I only give Fabio the two rounds that he knocked Daniel Downing. You know what? It's really strange today.

I mean, I usually use my actual pad. I just go back to the pad that I use on the night and score. You know, you've sat next to me. You know I keep a score, so I have to keep some details. And I didn't do that when I was preparing my notes for this fight. So I looked at the two scores. Now, I knew they were quite wide, 96, 92.

So I thought that's an odd score because if Daniel goes down twice, once in the first, once in the third, those are 10-8 rounds. So then I did a calculation. And the way it actually works out with all three judges, all three judges,

gave Daniel eight of the 10 rounds. The only rounds, all three judges, and Carl as well said it. Carl did it as well. The only rounds that they gave to Fabio were the rounds where he knocked Daniel down. Now, the mad thing is,

we've been pitching this and talking about this, and people lucky enough to go to BBC Eyeplane and watch the fight in its entirety. They'll be thinking, Bunsey said this was an incredibly gruelling hard fight. Well, it was an incredibly gruelling hard fight. It just happens that one of the men won eight of the ten rounds that they were in, which can happen.

You can have a really hard fight that go in the old days, 15 rounds, modern times, 12 rounds, and someone can win all 12. It still can be a hard, gralling ridiculously hard fight. And that's what we're talking about. That's what I think makes it so such a unique fight is there were so many different talking points. In terms of Dubois being in trouble early on,

it seemed to be obviously in Fabio Wardley's favour from that regard, but then the momentum, if that's the right expression, shifted. What would you say that was more down to? Was it something that Dubois did right, something that Wardley did wrong, or an element of both? If you remember what Don Charles said and done to Daniel in the corner, he kind of hit him a couple of slaps to waking him up.

It was a big slap as well. Yeah, it was a big slap. I mean... He's a big lad, big lad, and obviously Daniel is too. If that had to have been a slap on someone my hate

that I may have put me to sleep. Don't think by getting him first with the highest jokes that you're not going to get another height of his joke. I'm used to working with Barry Jones. Don't think I'm going to be all PC and polite. Trust me, there's one or two coming. I've taken plenty of stick from Stacey already.

Don't worry, it'll be one or two coming later. But I think that they're a dream partnership, I think, Daniel and Don. So I think Don, was really important in getting Daniel to change and tell him

to get back on the job in my opinion Daniel Dubois has the best job in the heavyweight division it's a ramrod it's a hurtful shot and he uses it

really really well and I just don't think Fabio could deal with it and his own job was a non-existent and maybe that was because of the success he had early

when he knocked them down he just thought all I need to do is land this right hand again but he neglected his own job after them knocked down I think those

we can't take too much off stats we know that But it's interesting when you look at the stats there's only a couple of differences in jabs recorded, but there's an awful big difference in a Daniel Dubois job and what they may be considered a Fabio Wardley jab. Which is why we don't use stats.

Because if Fabio Wardy lands 12 jabs, Daniel has only got allowed two or three to have the same effect. But I think part of that is the fact that we get to it and we talk about Fabio a bit later on specifically is that their histories. Daniel does have a history. of going to tournaments. Daniel does have a history of being part of the system. Daniel does have a history of spending a few years in and around the GB setup. He's got the word we use

is great. He's got grade. I mean, Carl, can you imagine you're defending your world title and the man you're defending your world titling never ever, ever, ever fought as an amateur. It'd come on the white collar circuit. I mean, it's hard to, you know, you fought for Commonwealth title. You fought a good, you know, your amateur pedigree is terrific. Imagine never having any amateur fight. It's incredible what he's done. Being calling from accounts is the sort of joke we make. And suddenly you're in a world title fight against Daniel Dubois.

You know, it's funny to say that for Bunch, because I was on, I saw a post on LinkedIn the day from a guy who used to work with Fabio Wardley. And he started this whole thing about, you know, so many years ago, I was a manager on this call centre and the guy next to him. That's what cool centre. And he started talking about Fabio Wardley and how brilliant he was and how great he was. his job and then just talking about how proud he was and how now he can use that mindset.

But Carl, that is a real reminder, isn't it, of this just this unbelievable journey, unlikely journey that he's been on and continues. It's incredible. It's incredible. Four white collar fights to become then the World Heavyweight Champion and has a chance again to become a

two-time World Heavyweight champion. It's amazing. I've used this line a couple of times. He's making a mockery of the sport. I was seven years old when I started boxing. you would just imagine if I you know

maybe 200 amateurs something like that anyway if I was fighting a guy who had a white collar background then turned pro I just I wouldn't expect him to hit me yeah not too

you'd be disappointed if you hit you you'd be disappointed if he'd landed a glove on you and I think it's only the heavy weight division we can see something like this happen I think you're right on that one

we're about to hear from Fabio Wardley but I just want to ask both of you first because Bonsie you've interviewed both of them this week Carl obviously have been observing them at the

conference today. Do either of you sense that anything sort of the dynamic between the two of them or is anything different to last time that you've picked up on? Me, no.

I didn't sense anything different. I think that Daniel is Daniel and you kind of know what you're going to get from him. He doesn't say too much and he's kind of got the same lines that he spits out and that's fine. That's okay. Fabio is a very

smart, intelligent guy and not that he was trying to go Daniel or anything but I didn't, I kind of just seen what I expected today. Yeah. There was a respecter between two guys who put it all on the line the last time and that's what we saw. Yeah, we know that no one cut

corners in the buildup to the first fight because both Daniel Dubois and Fabio Wardley are not guys that cut corners, they're not guys that get lost and chasing other dreams in buildups to fight. So we know they didn't cut corners last. They're not cutting corners I did sense a slight difference in February.

He sort of denies it a couple of times during the interview. But I did sense that he realizes how important this is and he also realizes how much better he needs to be in this fight compared to how he ended up finishing the last fight. So I did sense it. At the press conference today, no, it was good and fun. Yeah, put in the interview you did. I mean, the same thing happened to the press conference today

that happened with AJ and Fury, do you have a weak call? Is that when they came together, you're expecting, like, say, a catchy and ball comes together. security with their hands on their shoulders, yeah? Suddenly, Fury and AJ walked together. The security was 50 metres away. It was a bit the same today. You don't want any of that smoke. That's why.

Listen, that's part of it. The other part is they know they're no in the spotlight and they can't go throwing punches at each other because you hurt each other. And there's no tables. Derek Chazora has retired the folding flying table. Derek's got that in his kitchen of it. Well, let's hear now from Fabio then who's been talking to Buncee earlier this week. The hard work's done.

I've been in camp for God. knows how long. I've been grafting and grafting and grafting. All that is done. The pressure of that is ticked off. Now I'm just like, all right, let's just ride it to the end now. Did the camp feel different then? Camp definitely felt different. So there was, so you acknowledge that it's not just another fight. This is a, you know, a special fight. Yeah, the camp felt different. More so, though, because we made adjustments. We looked back on things that maybe areas we slipped or maybe things weren't right, we didn't get right the first time around, even down to little 1%.

But bigger adjustments, like I was staying away from my family for the week whilst I was training, I would go home on the weekends, and I'd go away for a week and stuff. So that was a new adjustment for me and the team and a new amount of dedication and commitment to the camp and to what was going on. And small things down to getting a personal chef for the food. and nutrition and I've always had a nutritionist but it just again real fine tuning and just add into it so tiny tweaks tiny tweaks there wasn't again I'm never one for these big overhauls of we need to scrap it bin it and redo it a completely different way there was just again especially

upon looking at the fight and the areas that I slipped and went wrong they needed fine tuning as opposed to they needed a chisel away rather than a serjama to them. If you had to find a sentence that summed up why you lost, why did you lose then? Overconfidence and complacency. The sentence I used consistently through media and whenever else and to myself is I became a victim of my own success. I've mirrored it a lot and compared it a lot to like football, for example,

of like when you end up going one-nil up in the first kind of five minutes, And the team suddenly does this breath and relax And then they think, yeah, done, job done We'll crack another few in And we'll win a few nil and whatever else And the next thing you know you look up And it's three one down and you're going, hang on, what happened here? We were winning, what's going on here?

And that's what I kind of mirror it with And that's how I feel like it well, it went, sorry, is that I got the first knock down And I was like, okay, cool. I wasn't even too confident, overconfident by that point But then the second one came and I thought, right, I rinse repeated here and I got the same outcome. So we're on a good track here.

I've got this covered. I know what it needs to do, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, overconfidence and over complacency. At what point did you realize, to use your quote, your body was going to let you down? Yeah, it was... It's a bit harsh. It's a bit harsh.

No, no, no. Towards the latest stages, like, there's probably a few layers to it in terms of the real answer. Really, when I felt like the fight started to slip away was probably six rounds and onwards. I was trying to get their right hand off. wasn't landing, consistently wasn't landing, was consistently going wrong.

And then I was getting caught as well. And I was thinking, okay, this isn't working out. And then they obviously cut up my nose and the swelling of my eye. And then they just start to layer on top of each other in terms of problems, basically, things going wrong. So, yeah, it becomes a perfect storm sort of thing. Yeah, it was. And then again, if you want to add to that, you can click, as a fighter in a ring, you can clearly feel the shifting momentum. And also, I could feel the kind of build of confidence from Daniel

of him starting to get his way a bit and momentum and progress forward. And don't get me wrong, it never dissuade me. I was always still in there and still going and still swinging. But at the same time, I could feel it was leaving, it was slipping out of my hands. So we're getting close to the fight, really close. Are you looking forward to it? Yeah. Is that the right?

Yeah, I am. Can I ask that question? Yeah, no, I really am. I really am. And weirdly, I've probably had this anticipation over the last few weeks of wondering whether I went up, if in well I will. Like when I get to fight week,

am I going to be like, here we go again, like, okay, like, do yourself up, we're ready to go. But actually, I got her and I'm like, yeah, here we go. Fight Week, baby, like, let's get stuck in. So, yeah, look, I am really in the mood for it. I'm really in the mood for it. So Daniel's going to be in the opposite corner. There's going to be seven, eight, nine, ten people in the ring.

Then there's going to be three people in the ring. Daniel, the referee, and you. How's he going to come out? Because you know what you're going to do. How do you think he's going to come out? What's your gut feeling? I think he's going to come out more, more aggressive, more ambitious. I think by the general vibe and gist of things that he's the words that he said from his own mouth

first time around, he was a bit nervous, a bit cautious. and then he seems to be more puffed up, more for it, more at it, more have more self-belief, have more confidence. And I think he's a very, well, he is 100% a confidence-based fighter. So if he feels confident, whether that's right or wrong, he will come out in that aspect. So I do think he's going to be way more, he's going to try to be way more of the aggressor in this fight in the early stages.

Carl Buncey, there's loads to talk about in terms of that interview between Buncey and Fabio Wardley. Just quickly before we break that down, Carl, he chose to invoke his rematch clause almost immediately. Firstly, do you think that is the right decision and is the time between five months enough to have recovered, for want of a better word, from such a punishing fight?

Well, to answer that question first, is it long enough? I'm not sure. You look at his nose and it still looks like, it's pretty it's damaged and hasn't healed completely and I imagine

that could be an issue for him during the fight I have a feeling that no he's just going to split open the first time he's hit with a big job and should he have taken the rematch straight away

I've thought about this you know I'm not sure what the other options are look if you think of where he's came from the white collar guy who won a world title and then lost it he's got the chance to win it back

for a lot of money as well. I imagine he's getting paid. I think he kind of had to take it because if you don't take the rematch, where do you go? Potentially you could lose at a lesser level and then you're completely done.

There's no way back to the top. So I think he's done the right thing. But he's no mug, Fabio. He's not daft, very smart, intelligent guy. He knows, he seems to know the mistakes that he made in the fight and he will try his best

to figure that out and fix things. But all that's a lot easier said than done when you have a big man like Daniel in front of you. What he said, Fabio, and he said one of the first things he said when I talked to him, not early this week two days ago,

but about seven or eight weeks ago when this fight was first announced, he said, Buncey, it wasn't as bad as it looked because it did look dreadful. Let's get that right. His right eye was closed. We'd seen him stumbling, he'd been hit repeatedly by big right hands

and his nose was wide open. It wasn't a cut. It was a gash across his nose. And it's an old wound from the Fraser Clark fight over two years ago, and it opens up in every single fight. But what he said was it wasn't that bad. Then he came up with a, it reminded me of something, which on the night we mentioned on Five Lives Days,

is that he was looking for his mum. So he looked a bit manic in the ring. Remember he was like wandering around a little bit? Yeah, yeah. He quite worried me. But then he said, no, no, I was trying to find my mum. So I spoke to Ben Davidson, he's trained him about that. And he said, yeah, he wanted to find his mum to make sure that his mum knew he was okay.

So when he says it wasn't as bad as it looked, I'm not fully believing it, but I'm not discounting it. I'm not dismissing that. You know, he wasn't stretched out of there. I know that sounds like cold and heartless, but he wasn't taken out on a gurney like Moses Itama was recently with absolute exhaustion. He was downcast, he was upset because he'd lost his world title and he lost his winning record, lost his invincibility, and he'd taken it hard.

But I'm going to hold a little bit back on was it right. Does his nose need more time? His nose, if he has five more years in boxing and two years out, that's going to open up in two years, Carl, if he didn't get touched. It's just going to open up every time he fights a hard, hard fight in my opinion. Yeah, I think so. And he's well used to it. I mean, it just seems to be blood and claret and guts everywhere.

Knockdowns. Don't wear white at ringside. Coming back, coming back when you're down and, oh. My shirt was blood splattered, Stace. My shirt was blood spatter. I had a bit of blood on the note as well. It was one of them fights. He certainly was.

What about the mentality this time, Carl? Because quite often he's gone in as the underdog, hasn't he? His entire story is unlikely. He did go in his favourite last time, whether people in the business thought that or in each team thought that. But he did. So will that make a difference him going in as the underdog again

or does it make no difference? I mean, what do you think about that? That's a good question. and I've been thinking about the mentality of both fighters going into this and I put myself in Daniel's position because although he was on the deck a couple of times in the fight it was a convincing enough win for him and he got up in my opinion one relatively comfortable

after the two knockdowns but that's a strange position to be in as someone who everybody just expects you to win I hated that in my career when you fight someone and people just think show up to win and that's it, just have to show up. It's a horrible position to be in

because you're worried about the expectation and letting people down. So that's the sort of position Daniel's in at the minute and Fabio's getting in as an underdog he probably doesn't mind that. He probably likes that position. He told me, he told me like that. Carl, I've got this theory about fighters

that are in really hard fights and they have a rematch of that really, really hard fight. Now, your two Kiko Martinez fights, I mean, you won them clearly, don't get me wrong, but he was hard, he was brutal, he was a solid man. I mean, you could barely walk after you won the World's up the next day.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, everything Kiko Martinez hits you with, okay? You feel it. There's no soft punches. Your heart says you want to win the world title. Your head says you want to win the world title. But is there something in your body that even overrides your heart and your head? And could that be a case with Fabio?

Could his body say, we're not doing this again, son? Maybe. You send him a message to his head. You know, because I have a theory about this and I really do. And I've seen really brave, bold fighters in those heart. rematches or in fights after unbelievable fights, where they're not quite the same. Yeah, and that may be the case here.

He may never be the same fighter again after that fight. And let's be honest, he's had a number of wars in his career, and they start to catch up with you at some point. But that Kiko fight that you're talking about, the first fight I knocked him out in the ninth round for the European title, that was actually a harder fight than the next fight, which I won him points. And even that, talking about the mentality, going into the world title fight

everybody just sees Carl Frampton K O round 9 So it's a breeze Yeah They don't see that the airdrums were perforated My hands were busted

I was paying blood after it And I was in I was really having to ask myself questions in that fight Because the plan going into it Was He's going to slow down After four rounds

And I remember standing up for round seven Going Why is he not slow down yet And yeah It's a difficult position But I get up The second performance was I just boxed the head off of my thought the second performance.

But can Fabio do that? I don't think. Stacey, have you ever seen the picture of Carl in bed the morning after he wins that world title? It's like there's those famous photos of Jake Lamottor in bed from the 50s. So Carl's in bed, his two hands look like he's still got gloves on, skin-colored gloves.

His face is all over the place. And it's like taken on a phone. He looks absolutely battered. And an hour or two later after I saw the picture, I was outside the Europa Hotel in Belfast. And he walked out. he couldn't carry anything. He couldn't carry a thing.

And you think your wife was pregnant, heavily pregnant, and she was carrying a little suitcase. Brilliant, Carl Frampton, what moment? Steve Bunce as well, of course, we're talking about Fabio Wardley and Daniel Dubois their rematch. Just one in terms of what needs to change this time around. So let's say we have the same scenario

and he drops Duques DeWire early. How should he manage it differently? Should he go for the finish? should it, because the difference in experience was key. Daniel Dubois has had the amateur pedigree and also the experience of managing fights on big occasions as well that Fabio hasn't got as much experience of that. What does Wardley specifically, do you think,

Carl, need to do differently this time around? A couple of things I think. I think the job was non-existent in the first fight, so his job needs to be a lot better. He needs to stop going back in straight lines. and try and get off to the angle. Trying to push Daniel back, which is a hard task.

But Daniel's kind of way better coming forward than he is going backwards. But being able to push him back is a difficult thing to do. I think, and normally I wouldn't give this advice to any fighter

because 12 round world title fights are hard and grueling. But I think he really needs to start fast. There's times where Daniel kind of needs to be woken up at the start of a fight. needs to be hit before he's woken up. The lorina fight and the first fight with Fabio, for example.

And if he hits him, literally throw the kitchen sink at him, I think he needs to try to think of this almost in his head as a six-round fight. I need to put everything in this. If I have him hurt, I'm going to put the foot down and try and get rid of him. Because I think the longer the fight goes on, the less chance he has to win. That is sort of counterintuitive. But that does make all the sense. And then it makes no sense.

It makes all the sense and no sense. It's ridiculous. If it comes off, a hoppy day is. But if you're still in the fight round seven after blowing a gasket trying to kill him in the first half, then it's a hard position. So you're a genius fighter in a genius corner

if you pull it off and stop him in the fourth. And you're the worst, you've got no brains as a fighter and you're a useless corner if you run out of gas in the seven. That's it. You've got a roll of dice on it, Carl. Speaking of the corners, we did mention Don Charles a moment ago,

we'll come back to that in a minute. But as we're talking about, He was under intense scrutiny, Ben Davidson wasn't he? And of course, he's just had another loss for one of his top two heavyweights, obviously, with a Tauma as well. For him going into this, a lot of eyes will be on him. There was a lot of people afterwards, immediately after the fight and on social media afterwards as well, saying that either the referee should have stopped it or the corner should have thrown the towel in. So there'll be a lot of intense scrutiny this time around as well for Ben Davidson.

Yeah, look, I spoke to Ben after because I was one of the guys that was quite critical that the towel should have come in earlier but he kind of explained to me and he was right when you watch it back so he had the towel in his hand and when Fabio stood up for that

I think it was round 10 when he staggered to the centre of the ring after a minute break and he looked like a drunk man he was kind of Ben was walking down He was talking to Lee Wiley they said they missed it

and he didn't see it so if he didn't see it then how does he know And when you've, I mean, you've got someone like Fabio, who is a dog and has knocked them down twice in the fate already, you give him every opportunity. So although I was critical and reasonably harsh, maybe, I thought, and I did think that the fate should have been stopped earlier. I also get Ben's reasoning and rationale behind. And also, Stacey, you think about the two previous fights to the Dubois fight, Fabio had been trailing against Justice Hooney going into the 10th. He was trailing by five rounds on one scorecard, seven on the other two,

and against Joseph Parker going into the 11th, he was down six rounds on one scorecard, two rounds on another, and then it was a ridiculous level one. So he had history for coming back from a lost course. And Ben admitted, he said, perhaps it could have been stopped earlier. He said, I've looked at it, and perhaps it could have been stopped earlier. But we're all genus is the next day car. And it was one of those fights where you're sucked in by the corner, you're sucked in by everything. And of course, we've got Ben Davison coming up soon.

We're obviously working now with AJ as well. One thing about Ben, if he has success, okay? If he has success, he takes the plaudits. If he gets something wrong, like he held his hands up with the AJ fight and he held his hands up with this. He said it could have been stopped earlier. I like him. He puts his hands up.

And that's a rare thing in our business. And he's a good coach. Ben's a good coach. Bingo, he must be, yeah. Now, let's hear from Daniel Dubois. He is a man of few words. He doesn't really like all the interviews and fight wheat build quite the opposite to our Mr Bunce, of course, who talks boxing for a living.

So it always makes for an interesting match-ups. So here's Bunsey in what I would consider a 10-8 verbal round with Daniel, and you can decide which way it went. Daniel, is it simple to say that you just have to do what you did last time? Or do you have to be a lot better than you were last time against Fabian? It's not about that. It's not about that.

I feel like the way I approach this fight is just make easy work of him. He's not in my league. He's not on my level. Just make easy work of him. And start faster? I'll do what I have to do. Yeah. Do you play the fight in your head, you know,

when you're sitting with Don Charles after you've trained? Do you go over what it would be like, first round, second round, third round? Do you go through it like that? Do you do that visualization thing? And has it changed since you went back into the gym? I just know that I'm going to make easy work of him. He ain't got power.

He ain't going to be able to take my punches when I'm landing accurately on his jaw. And I'm just going to wipe him out of there. In that first fight, Daniel, at what point did you know you'd turn that fight around in the first fight? When did you realise then? From the first battle, really, I mean... Even though you're on the floor... Yeah, from the first bell. You know, I came there for a battle and I got what I expected, really.

Now, this step was another fight where your father came to ringside. Came to ringside in the first, about the... I think he came to ringside at the end of the first round and ended the second round. and just I think he told you correct me if I'm wrong to just do what you know just do what you know I can't remember

but yeah if you said that he said that because at the end of the fight when you were celebrating in the ring he didn't go in the ring he was sitting outside just shaking his head

that was a good battle wasn't it yeah you quite like that good battle don't you in a kind of mad way yeah I'm definitely mad but yeah I like

I'm going to smash them up this time that's all I know Is there any danger that you could be overconfident Daniel? Never. Never. How can you be overconfident? This is fighting.

This is what I've done since I was seven years old so. It's in me. I just need to bring it out. And you know, as a fighting man that you can hurt someone but you can also be hurt yourself?

That's the game. Listen, I can't be hurt. I can't be hurt. And in this rematch, he's the one that has to change. Is that fair comment? No, I told you already, I'm going to smash him up. So it makes no difference what it does? I told you already, I'm going to smash him up.

He ain't got no power. I'm going to break him down, and it's job done. And are you still searching for Usik after this? Is that that redemption thing you talked about over the last 18 months? I'm not really looking for Usik. Whoever's next. Who would, in an ideal world, you beat Fabio Wardley at the O2. Who would you fight next if you could pick a...

person and where would it be? I don't think I was to look too far. There's cabial fighting. There's a lot of fights happening right now. I've just got to take care of business on Saturday. The world's your oyster. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another.

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Explore more at Rangerover.ca. Well, that was Daniel Dubois, listening to Five Live. Carl Frampton and Steve Bunce with us. Buncey, who won that round then? I tell you, I was genuinely scared for you at one point there, to be honest. I'll be absolutely honest with you. I think I would have taken a knee after about a minute and a half for that quite comfortably. And there are certain referees I've experienced over the last 35, 40 years in this business,

who definitely would have stopped that. Because even though I was doing all the talking, I was taking a kicking. But funnily enough, Stace, that's not even in the top three worst interviews I've ever done with Daniel Dubois. No, I think someone should be next to you. Paddy the producer maybe with the towel ready next time. Paddy had panicked. You know, he'd gone outside and made out of his hair or something. I was just me alone, me and Daniel

and about six of his minders who were just glaring at me as though I'd stitched him up in the past. I'd sold a kiss and tell or something. I couldn't understand the animosity. And of course when it's over, he's all smart thanks, Buncey, see you soon. You can't odds it.

You can't odds it, Stais. Carl, what impressed you most about Dubois's performance back in Manchester? Well, the fact that he was able to get back off the ground when you're starting to think the worst for Daniel and obviously the mentality's been questioned in the past before but it seems like he's good over that and he's had a few tough fights

you know, Hurgovich, Miller and obviously this one, Larena fight as well where he was on the deck three times and he gets up and wins so that was the most impressive thing but his job as well it was a thing of beauty

I think his footwork's often underrated as well Darren Barker says it all the time and he's better feet than a lot of people give him credit for you when he turned pro stays back in 2017 up in Manchester

on the same bill that Nicola Adams made her professional debut. All we talked about then was this Larry Holmes style jab. So I'm pleased you brought up the concept of the jab because it's not just, you know, we haven't just discovered it. That was the big thing when he turned pro. And the idea was that he had a jab and we hadn't had a heavyweight, completely just dominated with a jab for, well, Larry Holmes style.

Yeah, and it's a beautiful job. It's a beautiful job. Has it been put to bed now? Because I know Don Charles really passionately defensive, man whenever his heart or mentality is questioned. Is that put to bed now? Is that fair criticism that is taken from the past?

Has it gone? It's a difficult one, yeah. I think that because there has been examples, I mean, I was very, very strong on my critique of him when he fought Joe Joyce and obviously he had a busted eye socket, but he stayed on his knee. Look, that would have been extremely painful.

And I've never been in that position. But I'm thinking as a fader, if I was ever in that position, I would rather get carried out on my back. That's just the way I think. But I was maybe a little bit harsh on him. But he's changed my opinion. And especially the Miller fate in particular was extremely... And the Hurgovich fate, he took a lot of stick from Hurgovic.

The referee goes over at the end of the third or fourth round and tells them in the corner, and let your man show me something because I don't like what's happening here. Hurgovich was dominating. But I do think that that kind of relationship. Look, the dad's obviously very, very important, part of the team. And the dad sometimes walks to the corner and gives his advice.

You see Frank Warren, I think he listens to Frank as well too. Frank sense for the dad, Carl. Yeah, he does. Frank sense for said, yeah. Because they know it works for him and that's whatever it works, works. But I genuinely believe that this relationship between Don and Daniel is maybe it's maybe the most important part of his career. It's crucial, like you said, yeah.

In terms of what may change for Daniel Dubois Bunce, do you think anything needs to change? Because as you say, as the scores reflected, he boxed really well. Yes, he was dropped twice, but he recovered, boxed really well. He outboxed him. Does he need to change anything?

Not at all. I think he needs just to be very aware of expecting of finding Fabio doing what Carl was talking about early on, coming out extremely far. So I think Don Charles and the rest of the team And it's a big old entourage, Daniel Dubois's entourage. We were talking a day. It's a proper track suit gang.

There's about 25 of them. Let's hope that I think they'll get him a bit warmer, a bit faster, get him in the ring and make him very aware of what's coming. I don't think he needs to do anything different. And, you know, Daniel does things different slowly. You know, he doesn't need to adjust that much. He's got a good jab.

He's got a great right hand. He's got all the fundamentals perfectly, you know, now down from all those years. with top amateur clubs and top amateur coaches. And it'll just use those. But it can all fall apart if Dubois comes out. Like, there's a good chance he might in that first round. So Daniel Dubois needs to do nothing different.

All of the changes, all of the planning, and all of the roll in the dice comes from Fabio Wardy. Like it should in a rematch where you've been stopped, to be perfectly honest with you. Because if a guy who's been stopped in a rematch, is going into the... Sorry, he's been stopped in the first fight, is going into a rematch.

And he says, no, I'll just do the same. What do you mean you just do the same? You've got knocked out in the 11th round. Trust me, that's the good thing about Fabio and his honesty, his raw honesty. It should be his nickname. It's really interesting points, Carl, he made as well when he likened it to football

and going a goal up early and getting a bit complacent. He got overconfident, overcomplacent. Daniel Dubois said, you can't be overconfident. How can you be overconfident? And everyone describes him as a confidence fighter as he gets more confident. He gets better.

Is it possible for him to be overconfident? He's talking about being levels above. Is that just what he needs to believe going into it? Or could that be his undoing potentially? I'm not sure. I think the boys are right. And even Fabio was talking about. Daniel is a confidence fighter.

And I think that he... I mean, I imagine he just thinks of things in a simplistic way that I've beat this guy before. I'm going to do it again. I think that's probably the mentality that Daniel has. And, you know, all the changes that need to be made in his fight are from Fabio. I think he's open and honest.

enough to admit that. But I would say that sometimes Daniel, he kind of tries to warm his way up in the fight and Don Charles

is very smart. I think they'll expect Fabio Wardley to rush at him and they'll be drilling that into Daniel from as soon as this fight was made

he's going to come at you harder this time so you need to be aware you need to be woke I can imagine we might see a slap from Don Charles to Daniel.

I mean pre-fight before round one before he walked out to the centre just to waking him up I wouldn't be surprised Because if Don says, you think about it, Stays, you know, Don knows him very well,

and he knows fighters very well, and he's been around a lot of heavy weights, and he understands the way they live, breathe, and walk and talk, if he senses it in the dressing room half an hour before, and then 20 minutes before, and then on the walk to the ring,

that Daniel's not quite connected with what's going to happen, then Carl might be right. That might be one of those ridiculous bets that happen over there in betting land, where there's, you know, when you're betting on, you know, betting on the throwing's in a football match,

we might be betting that Daniel Dubois gets slapped before the first bell by Don Charles, yeah. It's a good bet, my friends. Betting land. Do you like that? Yes, that's great. Thank you, darling. You see that taking off.

I'll give you that. Well, when Buncey got up into the ring after the fight, he did, of course, speak to promoter Frank Warren. He then described it as the best heavyweight fight he's ever promoted. Something of a Hollywood movie. Five months on, does he still think that? It was like a rocky film, you know, from the first round. round when Daniel went down and he came back, recovered, went that looked good in the next round, second round,

then went down again and then got back into the fight, and it was just his edge of your seat stuff. And that's what happens when you get two big, big punches. They're both big punchers, and that's what's made it so exciting. Did you know that in your heart of arts, your gut fit, did you know Fabio would ask for the rematch? He was in the contracts and he's a fighting man? Of course we did, but I didn't expect it happens so quick.

But it is on, and that would be, we see afterwards, whether that was a wise decision or not. Because it was a tough fight for him. It's tough for Daniel. I thought it's tougher for Fabio, but he's a fighting man, he's got tremendous self-belief, and we'll see.

Could you imagine, you know, those first 10 years, 15 years you're promoting, that we'd have a year like we've had this year with the type of heavyweight, heavyweight year that we've had? Well, we've worked hard on it. I mean, we've been signing guys. It's been about five, six years, seven years, Yeah, you think we signed Daniel 10 years ago as an amateur.

Six years ago, we signed Moses. So all these guys have been with us. This has been where we're at trying to, you know, well, not trying to. We are achieving what we've done. And it's more than three world title fights this year. Because remember we've done the one in Germany of Adjit. Yeah, sure.

You have to have in this country. Sell out. Yeah. And we've got... Let me figure. The other three you mentioned sold out. Sold out. Yeah, that's the other thing.

All sold out. Big arenas. Not 8,000, 1819. And Agents fighting a game in Germany on the 28th of November. He's defending his WBC title over there. We've sold over 40,000 tickets for that already. So this heavyweight division, when I keep saying it's on fire, it is. I mean, these shows are selling out.

Heavyweight division is very lively. And what we've done over the last couple of years and this year sets up for 2027 all the eliminators as such to find out who's the best. Who's going to be the best out of all of them? Is there going to be a belt attached to Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury? Yes, because the WBA ruled the top belt or just a version. WBA have put that belt up for him.

With regards to this one, Fabio and Daniel Dubois, there are fights that you're involved with, then there's fights that you get sucked into. This is one of those fights, isn't it? If you're a casual fan of this, you get sucked into this fight, don't you? This is a proper fight. If you see the first fight, you want to see the second one. The first fight was unbelievable.

And the second one, if it's a quarter as good, you're going to be really entertained. Is your plan next year to try and get the four champions in a kind of elimination, semi-siminals, finals. Is that the plan? The plan is to make the unification matches happen and try and get him back into it again, Usik. I want to see this happen. You know, we're making it happen. I mean, no one can say that we're keeping guys apart. They're under our umbrella and we're making them fight.

Have you had any contact of Usik? because I've seen the two of you. No. It's like a lovely bromance when you were around him. Has he reached down to you? No, he hasn't. But he's got a good team around him, and I've got a lot of time for Alex.

He's a good guy. He's a tremendous, tremendous fighter, and, you know, he's great for the sport, and he's a great ambassador for his country that's getting a lot of getting very badly treated at the moment. I've got to ask you a final question, nearly a final question. A few months ago, we were on this balcony,

talking to you, talking to Ben Davison, who I'm going to talk to again probably this week, when Moses was fighting. Any any word on Moses? I think he's opening a gym this week. He's fighting in January. We'll be announcing him. He's fighting the next couple of weeks. He's on.

He'll be fight back. Hopefully it comes through it. You know, we had a very constructive meeting all of us a couple of weeks ago. We let the dust settle. We talked about what had happened in the fight against Hergovich. By the way, I'll be fighting Croatia. Are you going to

do the Croatia job next. We're going to do a show for him in Croatia, but he's going to be defending his title and that's really good news. And again, he's a big part of this. So Moses comes back, has a fight and he gets back in the mix and he wants to be in there fighting. And you know, he's a young man, 21 and he wants 2027 to be the year that he wins a title. Frank, going into the first Dubois and Wardley fight, did you have a strong feeling about how the fight might play out? And did your, did your hunch your gut, feeling your prediction come true? No, I knew it'd be tough for both

of them. You know, look, I think Daniel's got his more polished fight boxer, but the power that he's got, and we've seen it many, many times with Fabio. You can't, I never write him off. You see him when he fought,

what's his name, the New Zealand guy? Uts Zuni, and a game. And Parker. Parker. I mean, he can level you out any moment. Promoter Frank Warren Right, Buncey You ask this question all the time to people And you'll say, ding ding,

Round one, what happens? What do you think? Well, I think Look at the overall stats, 43 wins between them, 41 knockouts, something like 50 knockdown, 60 knockdown,

something absurd like that. So I think we'll get a fight that doesn't go the distance, okay, that I feel confident about. I think a lot depends. on how brave, not that there's any dangers with his heart not working, how brave Fabio and his team are, how much of a risk they take, if they're really prepared to roll the dice,

if they're prepared to try and somehow push Daniel back and push him back early and push him to that crisis, that confidence crisis that we saw in the Joe Joyce fights, that we saw in a couple of the Usset fights, that we saw glimpses of in the Jarrell, Big Baby Miller fight, where Daniel ends up doubting himself. and if they can make Daniel doubt himself early, they could pull off a spectacular win.

But there's about five ifths in that sentence and a little bit of fantasy and there will be some people, massive Daniel Dubois fans, throwing things at their radio right now. But I appreciate that. But I have a feeling we're going to see a hectic, ridiculous first rounds, maybe even the first couple of rounds.

Same as that. I think that Fabio's best chances to fly out of the blocks from the start, try and put it on Daniel as best he can. try to force him back, not let him control the centre of the ring, not let him get that job going. So in turn, I think if he starts fast, Daniel will be expecting that,

expecting to start fast, and he'll be able to match it. And hopefully he'll be hoping anyway to land that job. But I think it could be chaos at the start of this fight. I think the first few rounds are going to be very, very frantic. Who has the most pressure, do you think, going into this one? I think Daniel. I mean, because, you know, we talked about it a little bit earlier.

When you're, when there's so much expectation and everybody just expects you to win, trying to handle that and deal with that mentally is tough. So, and he has had three fights, three defeats in his career up to this stage. So he wouldn't, he wouldn't want a fourth one against the guy that he's beaten pretty convincingly, the previous fight. And Fabio, I don't think there's any pressure on Fabio Wardley. See, I do. I do. I think all the pressure is on Fabio. Jinkso?

Yeah, I really do, yeah. But if you think about it, Bunceesies, this is a guy. who's was a... He's exceeded already. I appreciate that. I just think that he's under pressure because I think he feels he let himself down last night. So maybe it's personal pressure.

Because the level of expectation, you bump into 50 people at the last couple of days down here, Stacey, either on the tube or at functions to do with his fight. It's like every man and his dog thinks it's a Dubois Wanda. The Fabio's not even there as a bit player. So I think he might put himself under pressure. How about that? And it's where you go after this,

if you Fabio Wardless, suppose, isn't it? after two losses. Who'd you fight? That could be a difficult way back to the top. Well, Carl, thank you so much, Steve. Thank you so much, as always. If you are a Labrador, you're my favourite. So I hope that's some consolation.

Why are you upset? Let me tell you something. Stacey, I learned something a long time ago at the BBC. Never, ever, ever, ever have a slight against dogs. Because a BBC, I've got an awful lot of dog listeners. There'll be a lot of the pro-Labrador gang. You'll be marked down, Stacey Copeland. Anti- Labrador, Stacey Copeland.

More like a British bulldog. Thank you very much indeed, Carlito. Come on, Sam. He brought him in Apple as well. I'll have him back on his lead on Saturday, don't you worry. That's all we've got time for. And we'll be back Saturday night for all the build-up and commentary of the fight. We'll be on air from 10 o'clock with ringwalks expected around 10.30.

I'm Steve Bracknell. Assistant manager of Sunday League Powerhouses, the Royal Oak FC. And this season, we're aiming for promotion to Division D of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League. We are absolute dants at barebole. In light of the fact, we only had 10 players on Sunday. Begglers may not be able to be chooses in this occasion. Throughout our 30-year history, this might be lowest point. Games Gone. The Steve Bradnell podcast.

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