5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Eubank Jr v Benn 2: The Undercard

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

Could a fight from the undercard steal the show on Saturday night? Shane McGuigan joins Buncey for an in-depth look at the four bouts. They hear from Adam Azim, Jack Catterall, Tommy Welch, Richard Riakporhe and Sam Gilley.

This is Five Live Boxing. It's that time of the week when we take a brever. And instead of going relentless with Connor Ben and Nigel Ben and Chris Eubank and Chris Eubank Jr, we have a look at the Undercar, plenty of big names on the Undercard, plenty of decent fights on the undercard. There's going to be 67,000 odd people there. Let's tell them about the undercard. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing.

So the way it works in a big fight week is you need to. to take a briefing. You need to step back from all the shenanigans. Not that there's been a lot of shenanigans. It's Ben. It's Eubank. It's 60-odd thousand. It's a rematch. It's the rest of it. It's just the story. It's the family feud. You know all of that stuff. We talked about it forever and ever in April, and we've already

talked about it this week. Barry Jones and I watched the fight along. We've got the fighters on on Monday to talk about it. Now I want to take a step back and I want to introduce a new voice for this week. Shane McGregn's with me in the studio, it turns out, to record a little bit of a look at the undercard and some of the fighters

and some of the repercussions for the victors in those particular fights. First of all, Shane, thanks for joining me. I just want to ask you a question about the whole Ben and Newbank fight number four or the rematch, whatever you want to call it. Were you one of the people like me, so that's giving it away,

who got completely sucked in by the first fire, who was just watching that first fire and going, what's going on here? What is going on here? Yeah, I was. Obviously I had Chris Bill and Smith from the undercard. was Bill and Smith in the ring when New Bank Senior arrived?

He might have just got the result I think It's about a sort of crossover, yeah But it was one of them I think if they had a boxed the first time That it was going on And obviously that fight week I think Chris would have made it easy I think he would have boxed to orders

And I don't think he would have tried to please as many people But going into that first Well that scheduled second fight but the first fight that actually unfolded. You know, he won so many people over with his speech about, you know, people in boxing and, you know, it was completely controversial, but it was raw and honest.

And people liked it. And they loved it, you know, and these casual fans, they want that honesty. And I don't think he's ever really showed that. And, you know, he's fathering his lost brother's son. And he's got... Which is staggering footage when he releases on social media. It's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking. And, you know, myself, losing my sister. Yeah. You just can't fathom it. And she didn't have kids, but, you know, he did. And, you know, you just look at him and you think, it's just, it's so endearing, you know. And that's like, we always didn't, we always didn't like him.

We didn't like the bravada. He's trying to do something that he did. He was a Panama Bairdi. And then he's gone out there and he's tried to please the fans for the first time ever. There was, you go back to look at his first few fights. Remember that time? He must have gone two minutes without even throwing a punch once.

That was part of it. That was part of the act. He was just a complete wind-up. Like his father in some ways. And now he's going out there, fighting tooth and nail when he probably shouldn't be fighting, a guy that can box one way in that short

and he's took it to him, fought short, and I'm like, come on, Chris, do what you need to do to win the fight. And, you know, he did win it, but he won it ugly. And I think, you know, your heart and the mouth stuff.

But in the rematch, you know, These two guys, they have both been, you know, brought into the world in privilege, right? They've both gone to private school. They've both chose this route. That is different to all of these other people. To test themselves or to please their fathers or a bit of both. Both, you know. Overlooked that sometimes.

You know, I got in a box to please my dad to show him that I can do it. And, you know, it's... Did your dad always say, did Barry always know you were going to the gym? He hated. He hated. Secretally? Like, were your mum's blessing or something like that? No, no, no.

I was down at Borden school. I was, I forged an email or like a letter to my housemaster. So, coming out now, some. Yeah, to basically allow myself to go down to the gym. Outrageous, Shane. I know it is. But, you know, he found, he heard wind of it. And there was a German teacher.

He was like in his mid-20s. And he was taking, he had about 40 fights in Germany. And he was over teaching German in the school. And he was taking me boxing. And we were having. ding dusts with this. I was 15 years of age. I had dinged us with this teacher. But then dad was driving 200 miles down,

200 miles back to come and watch me spot. And I think, you know, as a kid, we're trying to emulate your dad. Yeah. This is what we all grew up with. Campbell Hatton, the same thing. It's like, you know, there's something in you that wants to prove that you can do it.

Well, in all fairness, you've named there yourself and three boys that were under severe. You're all under incredible pressure because you're not just in shadows, you're in giant shadows. You're in giant shadows. You know, Barry McGregan,

Ricky Hatton, Nigel Ben, and Chris Eubank, the father. I mean, short of Frank Bruno and Lennox Lewis, they're four of the biggest shadows you can cast in the last 40-odd years of boxes.

So they are unholy big shadows. So these two, I agree with you. There's obviously, they're doing a bit for the dad, and they're doing it because they want to prove something to themselves. But they're going to leave everything. Which is what they did.

In the ring. And they surprised themselves. I know this is not a review and preview of that fight. We'll get on to talking about some of the undercar fighters, obviously including Adam Hazim, your fighter. But it was obvious from Ringssell. I'm not being an after-time. They didn't know where they were going after eight or nine or ten rounds.

They were not exhausted. That's not the right word. But they were fighting off of, you know, not fumes even, but it was desperate stuff. And that last round, and I've talked about this on the radio. radio you and I did a couple of nights ago. That last round, I was desperate for it not to end by a stoppage.

I wanted it to go to distance once we were in the last 30 seconds. I just thought it had to go to distance because of what they'd sacrificed up until that point. Exactly. Shane, listen, we could do that all night. We're not going to. We're going to talk about the undercard. You've got Adam Azine one against it, the American.

Former American footballer Kurt Scoby, if I'm not mistaken. It's a replacement. I would classify him as a dangerous replacement. I know he's lost the fight, but it was an odd fight last year against a massive underdog. We'll talk about the fight in a moment, but I did speak to Adam,

who was ringside, of course, for the first fight between Ben and Eubank. And I've got to be honest with him, he did want to talk. He did want to talk about his fight, but he was more interested in talking about Eubank and Ben too. I love it.

Like, the first fight itself was incredible. I'll witness every single little bit there And in fact you can see you in the crowd You're living every in the last two rounds You're living every punch I was getting up I was like whoa this fight was unbelievable So you know itself the fight was just amazing

The build up you know the dads The legends New Bank and you know Ben Obviously the egg smacking everything So you know It was just The rival itself is just you know It's genuine

It's like they hate each other Do you know what I mean So it's a it's something else I love it and as a fighter you know you forget that

you know sometimes we forget the fighters also enjoy fights and you can get sucked into it completely you know irrespect of wherever you know either of the fighters or have sparred with them you can just get sucked into the whole event just takes over your life of course like you know

during that first fight you know I was just so into the fight like I was watching every documentary I was watching the Ben and Eubanks lost old fights and everything so. The first fight, the first fight, while I was ringside for that in 1990,

that was, you're watching it through your fingers. It's just ridiculous, isn't it? You know, every single moment, every second of that fight, you know, everyone's getting up their feet, everyone's going, the atmosphere was just crazy, it was amazing, like,

you can't get anything better than that. Now, your trainers and your family don't really want you in fights like that? But you do, don't you? I want to be in a fight like that. Because every fight that sat down on that chair has told me the same thing. Yeah, of course.

Of course, like, you know, everyone have the rivals. Like, you know, you had Khan and Brooke. You had, you know, could be AJ and Tyson Furi. But this rival here was just something else. It was just more just hatred and they genuinely hate each other and it's coming from the dads as well. Yeah, because he's absolutely right about that. So even if you didn't like Dalton Smith, you can't,

I'm not putting words in the mouth, but you can't hate Dalton Smith. You can't hate. Dalton Smith doesn't hate you. Yeah, of course. You would right, we'd love to fight you, I'm sure. Yeah, of course. And wouldn't it be lovely one day, next year you're both world champions you fight each other yeah exactly but that hates different

thing isn't it hate is a different different different thing like between them two they generally hate each other like they didn't one they they were fighting every time they were going to every year brand they look at each other the um even a few times you know the egg smacking of course like you know it's the dad's like they hate each other but the dad's actually right now yeah that's a good as go they're old they're old now but the sons the sons hate each other that's the main thing That's enough on that. You've got, I don't like late replacements, Adam, I'm going to tell you now. I don't like good late replacements.

Yeah. I think they're tricky. Yeah. They bring all sorts of, you know, all sorts of unknowns with them. Yeah. And he's a good late replacement. Yeah. I mean, he's a good fighter.

Yeah, of course, he's a good fighter. You know, for me, objective remains the same. Yeah. I see him like he's a good, good fighter, but he hasn't thought anyone as good as me. Yeah. He hasn't fought any opponents that I thought. he was getting lots of hype as well wasn't he? Until that lost last year

Yeah of course like most of the people that he's fought that have been stopped about four or five times Like terrible records Terrible records Nine and eleven stuff like that Yeah he's like Like he's gonna come and he's gonna give the talk He's gonna give all that sorts of stuff

But now don't faze me I fought the former world champion I thought Harrod Davis Yeah Sergio Limous would beat him Yeah Horro Davis would knock him out Like

He's fighting a different kind of bow opponent Which is me Did you have any kind of, not doubt about choosing him, but you know, you're preferring for one guy, Zohabdala was a really good fighter, and then suddenly you get someone else. Could you sense a change in yourself, or did you stay absolutely on the same level?

I stay in the same level. You have to work at it though? Could you sense it over in your head? It's nothing different. Like, he's a big, massive guy, and most of the guys I've been spying in the gym. Big guys anyway, yeah. Yeah, so, like, for me,

I don't think he's a good boxer but he hasn't fought anyone like me and so Abdulyath was probably a harder fight I think it was a harder fight yeah don't get me wrong but I just noticed that whole trickiness of good guy coming in

Good guy coming out Let me ask you this Adam Is next year your year Because I thought this might have been your year And you know box is a cruel business Boxing is not a very fair business Sometimes you think you're going to get a break You don't get a break

But next year You know Do you feel it in your heart That next year is your year 100% I've already got a fight scheduled in January, February time, before Ramadan. So, you know, that's all sorted. Straight after this fight, take a week off, and then straight back in the gym.

Because I want to be going now. So I've got a fight. February, you've got another fight in May. And then I want to get three fights in the year next year. Because it is about time that it was Adam Azim time. Of course, yeah. I know, I think now. I mean, you know, I thought it might have been 2023, 24, you know.

Because, I mean, you know, even though you're getting really old now, you know. Because you've done my misunderstanding. You were 21 for about four years. Yeah, exactly. Didn't it seem that way, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm 23 now. 23, yes, you're getting on a bit. Yeah, so I'm getting on a bit, so I need to get going.

I wouldn't say, like, obviously, there was a fight schedule on June. I was meant to fight on that. That didn't take place. That was meant to be a tick-over fight for this fight. But unfortunately, you know, things didn't go the way it planned. And I think you're at that point where you don't need tick-up. over, you need fights. And you need, oh, you need a goal.

You need to know where you're going. Of course. As opposed to, well, I'll get to this position. Maybe I'll get this. 100% like, this fight, especially for everyone, I'm going to put on a great performance. This fight is me building myself up, building my name as well. And then fighting for the WBO Intercontinent,

or now is on the line, which is a belt that puts me up in the WBO ranking. And then that's it from there. So then you're on call. I'm on call. So I'm in each ranking now. So, you know, puts me in a good. place. And this is not disrespecting any of the top contenders like yourself or any of the champions out there, but you'd fight any of the Light Welters or Ten Stone Boys tomorrow, wouldn't you?

Of course. I mean, yeah, of course. You jump in like that. If I fought this guy on Saturday and be him, and then they said to me if Haney's opponent pulled out, I'll go next week to fight Haney as well. I would do that. Yeah. So that's Adam Azim talking there. And I've got to say something about him, Shane, it doesn't seem like a baby anymore, boy anymore. He seemed to be 19 or 20 forever in a day. You know what I mean by that. He's like, he looks mature now. He's looking older and he's sounding more mature.

Sounding particularly good. I don't like, I don't like good late replacements. Yeah. I like bad late replacements. Complete banana skin stuff, do you know what I mean? They're the slip-ups. But it's re-ed season. It's Ring magazine.

These guys want competitive fights. And, you know, to be honest, I wanted a guy called Richard Comey, who is a former world champion. He'd only been beaten a handful of times. He'd been beaten by Lopez, stopped early at lightweight. But since he moved up, he'd beaten by Ramirez. And he'd always gone late or, you know, Lamachenko beat him on points, dropped him once, I thought, twice maybe.

But took him the distance and really, really credible name. And safer? Because of the knowns? It's safer in the sense that you have a bad performance. and the credibility's there. The credibility isn't with Kurt Scoby. You know, he's been beaten by a guy that he, you know, he blew out, he ran out of steam and he got stopped.

Changed his life since then, though. Yeah. Changed his regime since then. Exactly. As he said to me, he believed the hype and he knew, and he knows now it wasn't true. He's got to go back to these. He's doing these like two-hour sessions

where he's just parrying a jab for two hours. I mean, talking about breaking down and going back, that's not bad going. Well, he's going to need to know how to carry a jab because Alamazim going to ping him from left to right with his jab. But listen, it's a fight where, you know, it's dangerous, he's 16 wins

coming from knockout out of his 18 wins, and he's only been beating the once. And as you said, he's completely changed his whole camp up, got a different coach and stuff after that. So it's, it's a, it's a, um, also kind of come, he's coming over here to make a name for himself, to spout a load of crap. Yeah, doing the American thing. And that's exactly what Adam needs.

He needs that because he's on the brink of being a superstar. He really is. And I've been shouting it from when he was 18 years of age, right? This kid is special. He's an unbelievable fighter. I've been lucky enough to work with some phenomenal fighters, ones that have gone on to be undisputed. Josh Taylor. Josh is probably the second most talented fighter

I've ever worked with and Adamson, I believe. But it remains to be seen if he can do it on the big stage. I'm fully, fully, fully confident. But I think he's a special, special talent. And it looks like he'll be on the BBC next year. It's looking like that. Late January and early February.

Late January, early February, maybe even the second fight he was talking to me about it. So that's Adam Azim against Kurt. Kurt Skobie. Jack Cattle, who talked about Josh Taylor, lost the controversial decision

to Josh Taylor for all the belts once upon a time, beat him in a rematch a couple of years later. He's fighting Echo Esseman, one of my favourite British fighters, former British World War II champion.

He won five British World War II title fights on the spin. I'm not sure people do that still these days. That's the sort of thing they used to do in the 50s, in the 60s and the 70s. Anyway, Echo Esseman against Jack Cattrell. Now, I caught up with Jack as well. Now, he's split recently with Jamie Moore and Nigel Traffers

a couple of months ago, and he's been out in Philadelphia, working with Boots Ennis's father, Boise Ennis, in the gym there. You know, I think he might have been in that gym years ago when we were on a tour of America. Anyway, and that is obviously a few miles away, as I pointed out, from Charlie in Lancashire. I missed a family.

I've got a solid family. The sacrifices for them. So it was hard leaving. I had a new born baby a week before I flew out so it was like it was a big sacrifice but in the same breath it was the reason why I'm doing it is for them and yeah it was enjoyable it was refreshing

it was a new experience I think boxing's universal so that's where I feel comfortable in a boxing gym so you take out being in a new city being in a new environment a different culture where I do feel comfortable is in the boxing gym so that was good

and you walked into a gym that was buzzing it was alive there wasn't You know, not like you're the only fighter in there. It was a gym that was absolutely buzzing. Yeah, I've gone into a new environment where there's a lot of world-class fighters, a busy gym, a thriving gym, with some great people that I've made a great relationship with. So these past seven, eight weeks, it's been non-stop work, a lot of time to reflect on the work that I'm doing after the gym.

And, yeah, just eyes wide open, learning every day. And did you just get that feeling? that you just needed change, just needed something fresh for this, not final chapter, that sounds a bit harsh, but for where we are now moving forward. Because this is the serious part

of Jack Cattle's career, isn't it? Yeah, this is the serious part, and I know every fight is always serious, but especially now, but yeah, this decision was strictly business. There was nothing personal in it. And yeah, it was that time for me. It was that time for a change,

a fresh set of eyes, fresh environment, and, yeah, just to see what else I can bring out in me in the fights. It was a hard decision to make, but nothing changes if nothing changes. And I felt like there's something needed to change. Could you have sat out and waited and had a really, like, a really easy eight-rounder somewhere? Did you need to fight someone like ECHO-Seman,

who could upset him on his day beat anybody and give anybody a hard 10, 12-R-Rouse? Let's get that right. Could you have done it easier, Jack? That was never a thought that crossed my mind. It was never an option. I don't want to be in that position where I'm back doing six, eight rounders or at kind of low-level international fight

on an undercard. I've been very fortunate and worked very hard to have headline for the last five fights and I've enjoyed that experience. Seems like five years of big Jack cattle fights. It's where it feels like. It's been good and to have an opportunity to fight, Cormin,

event to one of the biggest nights in British boxing. It almost feels bigger than headlining the last couple of fights. So, no, it was never an option to go and do a 10-rounder. In the old days, it would have been, because that would have been the standard way to do it. Because if you get a guy into a position where he can get a title fight, you don't mess it up by risking it in any way. So that's why I like so much about the modern days, is that fighters are prepared to take risks. in meaningful and proper fights

and Echo give anybody a meaningful and proper fight. Are you allowing yourself to think about world title fights again? Are you allowing yourself? Are you looking at fighters, looking at gaps, looking at things? No, it's a fine line. You've got to understand the landscape, where the titles are and what kind of route you're going. That is the job for Sam Jones, for Eddie Hearn,

for Dersone, for matchroom. Your job? I'm not disillusional. I know what the fights could lead to, but I won't get caught up in. in thinking I'm already there. It's the underdog mentality. I've got a big task to do Saturday.

I know what it can lead to, but I've got to go out there and do it. Do you still, you're 32 now, do you still feel fresh? Because you're remarkably fresh and young. I mean, you've had 12 round as sure, but you haven't, I don't, you haven't had brutal, hard slug fest.

Do you still feel relatively young, Jack? You know what, once, over the last couple years, I do feel better and better. You are getting better and better. I've not had them wars. I've not been in Slugfest I've not got like you would say miles on the clock

I live well outside the gym I've trained all year round I mean we both go Cold water therapy don't we so we do so we do we look after a bit of cold water we look after ourselves but yeah I'm feeling good I feel like this is time now to capitalise on

this fight especially but the fights that we want to make it now is time to do it yeah it is time to do it and just a word on the main event we talked there about this enormous fight this enormous event 60-odd thousand people

it's a ridiculous fight just the whole history the whole thing and the fact they let's whisper this they fought themselves to a stand still they went to places

you know we're talking about you not having terrible dreadful drawn out slow fest after after this their fight started like a slow fest in the first round

and finished like it was ridiculous unbelievable I remember watching it I was out training in New York watched it and it were just

unbelievable so I'm excited. We know it's going into round 13 and it's going to be, he's going to be exciting on Saturday. Echo last time out beat Josh Taylor. And Josh seemed like he was having a conflict

in the fight with himself about whether or not he wanted to fight. But Echo won it fair and square. It was tight enough, but I think Echo deserved it and I don't think there's any scream about that. Does Jack Cattle win this fight by making it a Jack Cattrell fight? Or can the end Jim,

can Echo Esseman get to him, make him uncomfortable and push him? It remains to be seen what Catrtle's like at 147. It's punching power, whether it will carry up, he's boxed, you know, Harlem, Eubank, who is also a 140 coming up. So this is the first 147 fighter. And it's a big, solid 147 fighter.

God, it's been there for 15 years, amateur and pro now. Yeah, but I think I like the move from Catrull to go to the States with Ennis's dad. I think Lee Beard did the fundamentals and foundations. with Jack Cattrell, and that was when he was exciting. I think he had a win-at-all-cost mentality when he went to Jamie Moore, and he had some good performances against Josh Taylor and the second one, but he stunk the pace out too many times.

And I think this is... Messed up in a world title eliminator against Arnold Bob Bozsche, we're not going on to fight, Tio, if I'm not mistaken, and it was tough, that. He should have, and even against Regis Progris, he should have been able to turn... Capitalize when he dropped. Had him hurt a few times, had him hurt a fight, should have turned the screw, didn't know how to do it.

So this is a good move. Whether it's a move that's going to showcase itself in the S-O-Win fight, I'm not sure. I think the old Jack Catrull can sit back and punch his head off and make it pretty negative and boring. But to be a complete fighter, to be a world champion, you have to be able to go on the front foot, march people down, walk people down, up the tempo, up the gears. you can't just sit behind your backhand and he needs to develop because he's got the talent,

he just lacks that change. Would Jack Cattle have been, would that Jack Cattle or the smart Jack Cattlewood, a clever Jack Cattlewood, Jack Cattle that could make things negative in order to win? Would he have been appreciated in a different decade? Appreciated more at a different time in boxing?

He's one of them guys that probably could have fought 10, 15 times a year because he makes it boring. Yeah, doesn't get hurt. I think the lights of Josh Taylor, People like Chris Bill and Smith or someone that comes in and he's all fought, or Ricky Hatton, they can only fight three times a year, max. And I think, you know, so maybe he would have been able to be appreciated a little bit more. I mean, we're still talking about Willie Pepper, how he won around without throwing a punch.

And Sugar Ray Robinson, if you think back on it and watch his fights, he, you know, he did nothing for rounds and rounds and rounds. Rounds of runs. But didn't he could unleash hell and stop someone at some point in the fight? There was an element of patience. I think we're living in 2025, back to be 2026. We won everything straight away. One and a half a bit of rounds, please.

This dopamine response, you know, and I think back then they had more patience as fans. I think that's a very fair comment. So that's Jack Cattle against Echo Esseman. Now there's a heavyweight fight on here that seems to be dividing casual, even casuals. And I use that term, you know, loosely. I particularly like it.

Richard Reactpaw, of course, we know from, or you know from Chris Bill and Smith, who fought him a couple of times, last time was in a world title defence outside of Crystal Palace last summer in the wet, if I'm not mistaken, against Tommy Welsh, Scott Welsh's son, who's been looked after and he's been managed and negotiated and moved the right way in many ways for a heavyweight because if they're still babies, you don't want to push them too far. I think it's an interesting fight.

Also, he's the latest of the cruisers to move out. Obviously, Lorda Coley made the transition. Jordan Thompson recently made it and went to 12 rounds with the Cuban Perro or Paro. React Poe, Welsh, I don't think, is that simple. Now, it's... The last time, obviously, I spoke to Richard,

he was a cruiser. Now he's very comfortable, but not an enormous heavy. It's funny because I'll just do in another interview. And, you know, I mentioned how... Obviously, I've done bits at Cruiser way, but I feel like I'm going to be known as a heavyweight. Yeah.

Like people are never going to remember that I actually done a weight division below. I think it would come as a surprise to people when they do something in depth research. But it's great to be here. And honestly, Steve, every day I'm filled with gratitude because, you know, it's something that I dreamed of when I was younger. I always wanted to be a champion, a heavyweight. And I just wanted to be competing in the division, you know, and now we're here. Tommy Walsh isn't, it's not a walkover fight in a sense that they've not bought.

you're an opponent in and you're going to hit somewhere above the waist and he's going to fall over. Tommy's got his own skills as well. He's unbeaten. He's got better pedigree to maybe people give him credit for. So it is actually a test as well to launch yourself as a heavyweight. Yeah, which makes it a bit more interesting

for normal spectators and even people in the boxing world because people are obviously going to measure me up to how I perform here. And it's good for me because I didn't want somebody where there was no threats at all because it could also dim your performance

at the same time, wherever you win. You need that bit of edge? You need a little bit of edge. And from my career, it's always when I have the edge and that kind of uncertainty to an extent, I always perform good, man. I always perform really good.

Whereas if I know 100% I'm going to be, so we'll go off job, I'm just not there. And when you walk out for a fight like that, you know, I mean, let's see, I know it's meant to be a competitive sport but some fights aren't that competitive we know that's just the way the business works when you walk out to face a guy

in your early part of your career you know you're going to win do you feel like there's something not missing but like you can sense that this is going to be an easy night and as hard as you try and say listen he can beat me he's got two arms he can hit me on the chin

somewhere inside your head you know he can't whereas now everything from now on is a hard fight everything from now on's a real fight that's all over Yeah, exactly. That business is gone. Exactly.

And it keeps you on edge. Yeah, it keeps you on edge. It keeps you training and pushing yourself to your limits. You just know, like, it's not a joke. Anything can happen. Sometimes it just takes one punch, you know, good place. Where you are now at a big heavy wage. Yeah, it just takes one punch.

So I can't afford to be making those type of mistakes. And it's just, it's all about perfection in my mind. So that's Richard React, Paul. Now, Tommy believes that this could be the fight where he gets him into that heavyweight mix, that British heavyweight mix, not even a global heavyweight mix. Because there's 10 or 15 fights out there

for heavy weights that keep winning. I mean, they could fight each other right now for about another two or three years, and we'd have dozens and dozens of really good fights. We might have a few stinky roos thrown in, but we could have dozens and dozens of really good fights. So, no, I am talking to Tommy about the chance that he'll make it into that group

that sort of Premier League, or even, you know, Premier League of heavyweight. I've been in the shadows and I've learnt my apprenticeship the longer way and I believe it's the right way and, you know,

we've been waiting for the next step and it's come and we're ready for it. And like you said, I would definitely, you know, I'm in this position now after this fight. You know, if, once I get the win

and I come through it, I'll be looking for the next one. And the next one. one and this is like you said cataport me into that position so and there's just so many of those scott's here now i might i might bring you in now that was a fair comment i think there scott i mean there's a couple there's a few heavy weights around when you were fighting don't get me wrong but there's 10 12 15 at the moment no no absolutely you're um the whole list the top the top 15 or whatever you know as you say 10 or 12 are british so yeah fantastic and the way the way it was

works, you know, there's Fabio and Fraser Clark having an unbelievable fight 15, 17, 18 months ago to work for the British title. Okay, and now we got Fabio two fights later, nowed on in theory to fight Ousek. Fraser's being recycled fighting on the BBC for a British heavyweight title fight. Tom, it's quite, and you see yourself in that mix with them. I do, yeah, you have no problem, no, you know, I've inspired most of them. So yeah, I've been in the mix for a while and it's just obviously from sparring to doing it on the night

is what we want and, you know, that's what we want to do. And Scott, let me ask you, I think Tommy's apprenticeship for heavyweight's been the right way. I think with heavy weights, it's a strange thing. You let them go if you need let them go, but you don't let them go unless you have to let them go. Is that a fair comment? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you remember as well as I remember. You're with me in 94 for my first title challenge. I couldn't and I'd never even been past five rounds in sparring, never mind about 12 rounds in the gym, in the ring or in the, even in the gym. And I entered a 12 round fight on the back of doing 12 round sparring. That's all I could do in New York where I train for four weeks. And yeah, I mean, crazy, crazy, right? When I look back at that, when I look back at your, you know, period where there was, you know, throughout the 80s

and the 90s, even the first part of this century, there was only ever two or three heavyweights. Maybe four. Maybe, and that's being kind. Four guys, you know, you could have competitive fights with. You know, right now, this level of fight, the level of competition Scott at the moment, as you say, it's 12, 15 fighters,

it's unique. And can that add, I'll ask Tommy this in a second, but can that add a bit of pressure to a fighter's performance? Yeah, I believe I believe that it, you know, to get him to 16 and now, it's been a lot, it's been a long process. We've had a broken hand twice in there, you know.

He's come through, he's got himself back, but we probably would never have had the chances to build 16 and O. All I know is I go back to me 13 fights when I fought for my first title. Was I ready? I believe it was probably a little bit too soon. So 16 fights, I think he's perfect. And he's matured. He's now a completely different guy.

He's in the prime of his life. And I believe he's more ready than ever than he's ever been. So, man, has there been frustrating? So I was obviously with a hand injuries and maybe not getting fights that you thought you could have got or seeing guys who you think you could have beaten, getting a bit of line. Does it feel like the time is right now?

I think it's one of them things where if I would have been signed to a specific, promoter early on, I perhaps wouldn't have had the experiences that I have had, and I wouldn't have had the different fights in different locations I've gone out and experienced. And it's all preparation for days like Saturday, dealing with the different pressures, dealing with, you know, the messing around and the cameras and the different shows and the promises. If I would have been tied to one promoter, I wouldn't have had 16 fights. I know many. kids that have come through as amateurs with me, top level fighters won everything as an

amateur and they're only on like six, seven fights. So for me, personally, it's been a better journey with my dad keeping my feet on the ground saying, you know, your time's coming, your time's coming. When I've been frustrated and I'm like, you know, I want to get out there, I want to get in the mix with everyone and fight someone who's going to bring a better side out of me as well and have a little bit of back and forth with them and, you know, get on better shows. He's been pulling me, you know, don't worry. It's happening, it's happening.

And it's true. It's happened. And we did get offered a couple of fights earlier, but for me it wasn't the right time or something wasn't right. They didn't offer enough money. You know, we're not going to take big risks for very little money.

So, you know, we're in the game to, we're boxes, number one, businessman number two. So he needs to understand about the business side of it as well. And this is it. This opportunity has come now and this is the right time, everything.

Taking things short when you don't need to is not the business. Tommy, it's a delight talking to you. Scott, it's always delight talking to you. One day we'll come down to Brian, we walk down the road to Felici's or Polini's or whatever it's called. They've all got loads of seas and eyes,

Fettuccini or whatever. Morocco's here. We walk down there. We'll sit down and have a couple of plays. plates of food and have a little discussion. Thanks very much, fellas. Thanks, Steve. So Welsh, you react, Paul, Shane. What's your instant reaction to that,

without analysing it too deeply? What's your first feelings about that? Too soon for Tommy Welsh. I think he's been thrown in. I think he didn't, you know, his dad was a great fighter. And I think his dad's smart. He thinks to himself, all right,

well, if I'm going to let him risk getting beaten, you need to do it on the big stage for decent money and for a good opportunity, if he beats Richard Rackport, it launches his career. Yeah, absolutely. And if he loses... It becomes the man that people want to beat. Exactly, and if he loses, it's too soon for him.

But there has to be always an element of risk and a calculator risk at that when you're looking after fighters to push them through at the right speed. You can see it with Anthony Yard. He had zero competitive fights. Before he went to Kovalev in Russia. Got absolutely smashed up, you know what I mean?

And then he got smashed against Baturbiev. And, you know, you just, you can't, it's a different game. And I'm not saying that Richard Rackball is a world-class, but Richard Rackbore's is a world-class puncher, and he's a guy that always should have been a heavyweight, in my opinion. Absolutely, yeah. And I think, you know, with his speed as a cruiserweight, he lacked that speed against the likes of CBS,

but he will be the faster guy up at there. And I think he's the guy that gives people like David Adelaide, nightmares. you know, Jamie TKV, Fraser Clark. All these guys, he's the guy that's going to give him nightmares, you know, and same with Laurence Koli.

These guys can really dig. And they have that, they have a bit more patience with a slower opponent in front of them where they can let their hands or they can set things up and let their hands go. It's certainly a fight where the winner moves into that arena. And if it is,

and this is not biased towards Tommy, if that winner is React Paul, he steps straight in with those guys. And he's another addition, making us 10, 12 top heavyweights or entertaining heavyweights whether you want to do a strict one to 10 in the world. Listen, all these guys are in the mix.

Who knows? You know, anyone could get a call up. We have no idea what's really going to happen next year. Now, another fight on the bill is Ismail Davis actually having proper notice for a fight and not having to give away seven or eight weeks of a training camp to a guy that's been preparing forever against Sam Gilly.

Now, I spoke to Sam, and obviously he's part pumped and excited about this because he gets pumped and excited about. I mean, Sam Gilley probably gets pumped and excited about putting a kettle on in the morning and making a cup of tea. I do love his enthusiasm. But he's also excited about the main event and how proud he is to be part of a massive night. Mate, it's a privilege. I was at the first fire as a fan, and I was sat there watching a fire completely engrossed.

Just sucked in. I loved proper. Like back when I was a kid, just literally, I loved every second event. I thought they'd done so well they just went at it and they put a proper show on and when I was sat there there wasn't one bit of me

that could even imagine that I'd be on the undercard of the rematch so this is just I mean I'm a Spurs fan as well so for it to be outside it's just nuts well in that in that fight I mean every round was hard

the rounds just got harder the last three or four rounds all of them I think for I think the eighth, ninth, 10th 11th so the last four all of those could be rounds of the year yeah and that last that last 30 seconds of the last round

I mean it's out rocky rocky It is like but Because I say saying about about the two lads as well Because we know neither of them fight for money Yeah they both are in a privileged position in that sense So for them to dog in like that Was just pure So was that pride?

Yeah That was history For pure pride and for their families And it just meant so much more like When I'm in there I'm like I'm fighting to change my life Their lives already made whether they fight,

for them to just dog in just purely out of pride and for their families, that was special. Do you, as a fighter, do you, from when you started, first walked into a gym,

do you want to be in a fight like that in an event like that? Do you want that? I mean, you do it, don't you? You want that ridiculous kind of Rocky-style rubbish. I mean, especially with a style

that I've got. Like, I'm not, I'm not going to be like, I wasn't an Olympian, I've got the flash, but I'm tired for I can fight. You're in good fights anyway? You do, you do,

You do dream of being in hard wars like that that spoke about for ages and get big remashes and set yourself up. Ismao Davis, he's a kid that takes risks, brave, bold, gets in there. Does he have, though, and I'll be careful how I would say this, does he have a little bit, not of a losers mentality, but does he have a little bit of a sort of sparring partner's mentality,

do you think? Or do you think he's still madly ambitious? No, no, I wouldn't say that about it. think he's ambitious that's why he takes the opportunities yeah yeah he does take him he does take him whether he's like he's not done what I've done he's not gone the route of southern area English so he's not had them learning fights on the way he's just gone bang I'm parachuting yeah I'm jumping in I'm jumping in with two feet and I'm going to test myself yeah and if I'm good enough I'm good enough but it's kind of short

cut the time he's only lost by split decision to Kelly like the um the Ukrainian lad obviously listen he was it was a bit out of his depth there but again it was short notice as well yeah exactly but and then and then the recent fight against even. Like, he could have gone either way. So he's always given a good account of himself. If it was a sparring partner mentality where he was losing by a shutout

or something like that would be a bit different, but he's always in good fights. You know the mad thing? Imagine if you and him have a fight at a year then about three hours later, Ben and Euban get in the ring and do you like a kipper. How ridiculous, is it?

It happens to me before. I had a fight with Drew Brown and the only fight that was better than it that year was Wood Conland. So I've been trumped before. So would Connan a fight where in the last round when Conlon's in front but fading, he gets knocked out the ring

and lands in the arms of his dad in front of 9,000 people? So you've got scumpered by a decade, like a decade fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a once in a lifetime thing. Yeah, so I've been trumped by that before, so it wouldn't surprise me. So what strikes me about every time I've sat and talked to, either on mic or off-mic, is how level-headed you are?

But can you allow you to say, I get through Ismael Davis there's a lot of good fights in and around this way I get myself in that position can you allow yourself to plot into that sort of dreamland slightly yes because you don't want to do it but you can't help but do it

this is the reality I'm sat where the main event lads are earning millions yeah so I'm not that far away from big fights and stuff like that so you can just so you do allow yourself to dream a little bit but you should do it's like getting into it's like when teams get to

business end of the Premier League and they're like second or further and they're going oh no we don't really think about that you do because it's got to be on your mind course it is like but um but we've got a job to do first and if we overlook that job and we don't do the job properly then all them dreams go up in smoke sam that's brilliant thanks so thank you i like this fight there's a couple of ways to look at this fight um ismao is you know ishmael talks a great fight you know every defeat he explains it explains why sam gilly fights a good fight a rugged fight this this this is This has the potential.

What's that expression we use? This has the potential to be the fight of the night, steal it away. Well, that might be tough with Ben and Eubank at the top, but this, nevertheless, it's got entertainment written all over it. Definitely. I had Sam Gilly in the gym sparring with, you know, the likes of Adam Azim.

I've had him spying with other fighters in the gym. And I like Ishmael Davies. David's here. How can you not like it? I think he takes fights last minute. His story's amazing. And I think, you know, he's still learning and developing. And, you know, as we saw with Sam Gilly,

in his last fight against Gideon he completely you know he completely underperformed and he has that ability sometimes you know to just to just underperform and I think

to not be involved something yeah I think sometimes I think he needs that big fight to get to bring it out of him and you know there's a lot of respect there I've seen some buildups and there's maybe a little bit too much respect in Sam's favour

he needs someone to get under his skin you know like like Louis Green got in his face, that animosity was there, and that brought out that fire in him. Now, I think Ishmael Davies is very tough, and I think he's going to really give a good account of himself in his fight. I definitely think you're correct.

It could steal the fight of the night, but not the performance of the night. That's going out of the museum. That's going to Adamazim. Well done. If we're giving out awards for every single show, Shane, listen, thank you so much for finding a bit of time in what is a very busy week to come and talk to us.

So the pods continue. We started the week by, or setting the week up and hearing from the two fighters. And then Barry and I sat down and watched the watch along. We had an hour on air with George Groves, Shane and Kelly Kate, on Five Live. This is today's pod. This is the middle of the week. This is the little calm before the storm. We've got them, we'll have the press conference with them head to head and pushing and insults

and all sorts of glorious stuff. Then we'll have the way and then we'll have the fight. from about 945, I believe, on 5 Live on Saturday. Eubank and Ben 2, or is it the Ubank family against the Ben clan, the full fight? I've been there for all of them. Last century, sometimes I give my age away. I've been Steve Bunce, and this is 5 Live boxing. Five Live Sports.

The Rugby Union Autumn International. The Union's elite clash in a bid to close out the year in style. Oh, what a try! Keep up to date with all the insight and analysis. with the Rugby Union weekly podcast. The Rugby Union Autumn Internationals. It doesn't stop. Listen with the BBC Sounds app.