5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Fury v Joshua: What is going on?

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

What on earth is going on with the proposed fight between Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua? Buncey sits down with BoxingScene’s Matt Christie to try to make sense of it all. Is Eddie Hearn right to ask for amendments to the contract if the fight is to take place in New York? The guys assess what we know, what still needs to be resolved and how it could all play out. Plus, with Moses Itauma fighting for his first world title at the O2 this weekend, they ask just how good the 21-year-old really is.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us.

And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discontalienable. accredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. This is Five Live Boxing. There's only one question in boxing. Is Tyson Fury going to fight Anthony Joshua?

And if he is going to fight him, where is he going to fight him? And if he is going to fight him at a venue yet to be announced, when's it going to be? As I say, lots of questions. I talk about those and also a mention of the man who might become the greatest heavyweight in history. Hey, that's some of the billing. That's Moses Atama. I'm Steve Bunce and this is Five Live Boxing. So the plan today was really simple.

And I mean simple. Moses Itama is fighting for the vacant IBF heavyweight title at the weekend. Michaela Mayers in an unbelievable fight with Chantelle Cameron. I could, you know, take my pick of the people I'd have on the show. and then along comes this juggernail of indecision. Tyson Fury, Anthony Joshua, should have been done and dusted. We should have a day. We should be trying to get out to their training camps.

Instead, we're dealing with, he said, she said, some unbelievable negotiations have been going on behind the scenes and some unbelievable negotiations have been going on in open. So that meant, I had to do away with Barry Jones, who's swimming in the channel with Darren Barker. I had to do away with Stacey Copeland, who's somewhere doing a class, I don't know, a gym class of, I don't know, some sort of keep-fit class somewhere at Ricky Hatton's gym,

and pulling the man that can deal with this, and also the man that just jumps on a train casually, comfortably from Brighton and gets with me. That's boxing scenes of Matt Christie. Now, before we continue, I'm reliably told you've got some blockbuster news at the top. It's not a date and a venue for Fury and AJ, but what is it? Please tell me. Put me out of my Missouri. You're not going to believe what I'm doing after this, Steve.

Go on, son, tell me. In my teenage days, I was a big fan of the one and only. Marilyn Monroe. And knowing I was doing this today, I happened to see a poster on the train yesterday that there's a Marilyn Monroe portrait exhibition

just down the road. So that's where I'm going after this. Those famous pictures on Jones Beach, you know those black and white pictures? They're the famous ones. I've got that original Marilyn Monroe pictured that book from about 30 years ago,

which is now a semi-collector's item. And those black and white pictures of her on the beach are just mesmerizing. I forget who took them, but I know that she did sit for a photographer called Karsh. And those were also, I think those are the ones in the big jumper. Because he also did an unbelievable picture of one of my favorite writers, Ernest Hemingway,

wearing a big brown roll neck. You see, you didn't think we could swivel, pivot. Look at Patty, the producer. He's over there sickened to his stomach. He thought you were going to drop Marilyn Monroe on me and I'd be speechless. No, I can take you Marilyn Monroe, adding Ernest Hemingway and a couple of famous photographers and the location and we could talk all day.

But we can't talk all day. Well, we could talk all day, but instead we've got to address the latest. Where we are with Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury. We know that the deal was just about done and dusted in May, nearly done in April, maybe done in May or June, depending on who you believe. They both talked in June and July that the fight is absolutely signed and sealed.

It has to happen. And, of course, the rest of that sentence, Matt, was that it has to happen in the... the UK. The contracts that Tyson Fury signed, the contracts that Anthony Joshua signed were for the fight to happen in the UK. We fought when we were out in Jeddah for Anthony Joshua's fight against Prenge, which was a bizarre occasion, the night after Tyson Fury fought in Pataya in Thailand. We thought then we'd get an announcement. We thought we'd get Tyson Fury flying in on a private jet. Didn't happen. We're still no closer, or are we? Eddie Hearn has been very, very, very, very. verbal over the weekend coming up with all sorts of stuff,

to counter all sorts of stuff. Just give me your, before we read directly some of Eddie Hearns' quotes, which I think we've got to do, just give me your interpretation of where we are at this particular moment. And no Marilyn Monroe references, although one or two would be fantastic. I'll try and keep them out. Thank you, darling.

I'll try and keep them out. It's complicated. And one sense is it's been complicated since the very beginning. You could tell that perhaps the hym sheets that they've been given had different lyrics back in April. Just because you give someone hymn sheets, doesn't mean you're going to be reading the same hymn from those hym sheets, does it?

Exactly. So you kind of, at that point, you thought the fight was going to be announced. Joshua didn't accept Tyson Fury's invitation to get in the ring. In April, because it wasn't a done deal then. It wasn't at that point. And now my understanding of it is, and this is a while ago, speaking to various people,

is that the contracts were different. This is the problem. This is the bottom line here for me, is the contracts were different. I was told that Tyson Furie's contract didn't stipulate UK whether that's right or not. I can't say I can't be 100% on that because I haven't seen the contract.

We're according to Eddie Hearn, that's not right. But I was told that Joshua's contract is the UK. Absolutely. And the dates were all so different. Yes. Now, for me, this is just screaming that something isn't right. We know that they're going to argue perhaps about who's going to be the first name on the poster. Who's going to be the last to ring?

Who walks first, etc, etc. but surely the most important thing is get the fighters in the same place at the same time and this is what we're struggling with at the moment and we're still no closer to that as we come up to the last four or five or six days of September for a fight which everybody seems to accept the date at least is November 20th which of course wasn't the date that we were maybe looking at in the last two months it seems to be the date we've settled on and it seems to have been Madison Square Garden

And just to quote Eddie, it said, this is Eddie from the other night. It seems that every man and his dog wants to do the fight in America. We don't. We have told Seller and the team that if you want to do it in America, these are the terms. This is what he's put to them. If you want to move forward. But we would rather not, please.

He wants to fight in the UK. Now, we've not heard from Tyson Fury about wanting the fight in the UK. He has just accused Anthony Joshua and Eddie Hearn of a, asking for too much money. Do you have a little bit of sympathy with Eve of the two fighters? Or do you have any sympathy with Eve with the two fighters? Let's put it that way. Yeah, I've got sympathy probably more so with Anthony Joshua in that.

He signed a contract for the fight to be in the UK. His promoter, Eddie Hearn, very understandably, wants that contract to be honoured. It's a fight between two British heavyweights that made their name in Britain. The fight should be happening in Britain. We all know that. With a history of doing 90 plus thousand in stadiums. We all know that.

So if that's what the contract states, then they're quite right to be fighting their corner. And it shows you what they're up against, however, when the likes of Eddie Hearn and Anthony Joshua are almost the minnows of this tale, they are fighting against Turkey Al-Al-Al-Sheik and co. And that is a formidable opponent. Because Turkey Al-A-Sheek is officially or can officially be the promoter

or seller, I guess, would become the promotional company. That's his Saudi Arabian. entertainment and promotional arm. But it would be, no one's denying that Turkey has the choice and where to go. And that's why Eddie has also said, Eddie has also talked about just wanting to ask Netflix

and Turkey for a date. Give me a date, Eddie. Let me see if I can find you to quote. Basically, Eddie has said, you know, give me a date. Okay, all we need is Netflix or Turkey. This is Eddie, to call and say, Wembley Stadium, and we will have a conference this week. Eddie said that in the last 48 hours.

Tyson Fury in the last 48 hours. the last 48 hours and Spencer Brown is managing the last 48 hours have voiced some concerns that the fight will even take place. Eddie has constantly reiterated this fight will happen. Where are you on that, Matt? What's your gut feeling from, let's say, mid-May, mid-June when we were told the fight was going to happen and there was no talk of it being overseas? What's your gut feeling now? What's on the Matt Christie inside, that chart inside your system? Where are you? Admittedly, back April, May, I wasn't convinced he was. going to happen at all. They both had fights coming up for example. For example, yeah.

And then probably a couple of weeks ago, I was convinced it was going to happen. Now I really don't know what to think, to be perfectly honest with you. It is ridiculous. It appears the common sense left the room a long time ago. And we've kind of been here before with these two. If fate was involved, we should have long ago realized that these two are just not meant to be together. Yeah. But, you know, you've got all this talk about America. I understand the talk about America. I'm not necessarily in the anti-U.S. train. I understand it.

You've got people at Netflix that have looked at the viewing figures for all the boxing events they've done, and they've probably realized that 95%... We need to be at this particular time. 95% of the people that are watching the boxing events are in America. Therefore, we need this event to be peak time in America. I understand it. Wherever it is in the world, it's going to be massive. And at no point,

as Eddie Hearn said, we're not doing this fight if it's in America. Eddie Hearn, to paraphrase, has basically said, if we're going to do it in America, we need a new contract with new terms. and that's what's trying to be resolved. And that's what's really interesting. Of course, this entire game, this debate game, all of this furtive stuff that's been taking place behind the scenes.

And it reached a new level, about sort of 70 or so 80 or maybe even 90 hours ago, when there was a leaked email, and this was pertaining to some demands that Matron had made of Turkey and Seller, demands that Eddie Hearn hasn't denied. And some of these demands include some outstanding monies from darts and snooker events that Matchroom have put on. For instance, a new licensing agreement for Ronio Sullivan Snooker Academy, which I'm assuming is in Riyadh. And Matchroom to then have the say on a couple of the so-called undercard fights, one of which would have been Murat Gassiev against Jerell Big Baby Miller,

which is a fun fight for the WBA title. And Kees-Shorn Davis against Jack Cattrell. Well, that's a fun fight no matter what belts on display. And also the Tia Marana, the heavyweight, Brian Peters is heavyweight, and O'Dell Kamara, those were some demands or those were some things that were in an email that was sent to a select group of boxing, oh no, whatever we want to call them, YouTubers and also correspondence and broadcasters globally. I never ever got a copy of that. And my understanding is you never got a copy of that.

There is an attachment to that that there was, in theory, some cash incentives offered to print that and show that. Now that we can't prove. Eddie has talked about it. What Eddie did say is not one of those outstanding points was in the addendum. That's the actual addendum to the contract. And the changes to the fight contract. Not the outstanding things we have been promised by from Seller. We are not happy about that, by the way.

So that's him talking about all of those things. I've just listed there. But those were not obstacles to the fight happening. What we don't know and we can guess and people are guessing and speculating is what is actually in this addendum that Matron have submitted to Sella that has been in at least 10 days, maybe even

two weeks now. I mean the fight in Jeddah, the Anthony Joshua fight in Jeddah and the Fury fight in Thailand was over a month ago now, Matt. Yeah, well, July 25, wasn't it? Exactly, July 25, yeah. July 25. So we're getting on for a month ago. And

Lance Pugmire of boxing scene, he was covering this very, very closely. He was his, did he break the story? He wrote a story. He broke the story. Lance is a good operator. I'm glad he came back because he went into real estate for a while, didn't he?

He left the boxing business and went into real estate. Now he's back on the boxing scene. See what I did there? It's quite clever that, weren't it? It was incredible. Yeah, not bad, not bad, Marilyn. Carry on.

But, yeah, so Lance received this email and then he went and he spoke to Eddie and we broke the story. It was very important that we managed to get both sides with this. But kind of reading between the lines here,

there isn't anything out of the ordinary that's been requested by Eddie Hearn. To me, it would appear that the biggest thing, the biggest stumbling block, is that Joshua is still waiting for all of his pay from a month ago.

And that's huge. And if that is true, that's huge. And of course, one of the things that we're not looked at and neither of us are fight accountants is that I'm sure, from a taxation point of view, there's less money available for the two British fighters if they go ahead with this fight overseas. That's the, well, I'm assuming that's also something to be factored in.

I don't know the ins and outs of that, but that seems to be the suggestion in some of the stuff that Eddie's saying. Yeah, and which could account to quite a lot of money. Yeah. On the kind of money they're making, an awful lot of money. So, again, you understand why they want all of these things ironed out before they move forward. I mean, there's another argument to it as well.

You can kind of be cynical about it if you want and just say, well, hang on a minute. Why are they getting paid so much? because if they were not getting paid so much, we wouldn't have to be doing it in America. We wouldn't be reliant on the Saudis to fund it. We could do it here at Wembley Stadium, and it would be the best event that the sport has seen for a long time.

A genuine nation-stopper. So, you know, when you asked earlier, do I have sympathy, to a degree, it's now getting ridiculous. You know, this has been going on for the best part of 10 years. The first direct quote about, I'll fight him, and I'd like to fight him and I'd knock him out from Eve of them, is when, and I'd forgotten this, when Anthony Joshua was in the ring

after he'd beaten Charles Martin, so this is 2016. And at that point, Fury is still the world champion, but he's been inactive since beating Vladimir Clitsko the previous November in Dussledorf in front of 50,000 people with a Ruther. And AJ is asked in the ring, and Fury's name comes up. I can't remember who did it, but I've got the transcript of it. I've got it written down.

I remember we've used it somewhere. And he says, I'll knock Fury out. So that's 2016, whenever it was April of that year. From then it's constant. The first fight was signed and sealed, so we're told, on, I think, the 6th of June or the 10th of June 2020. You know, just as we were coming out of COVID, that was the famous piece that Tyson Fury did.

So what's happened, as you say, it's been going on, it's been going on. There's still appetite for it. And Eddie did admit one thing. He said, if you think about it, he said, and I'm paraphrasing again, he said, all of this is making a massive fight even bigger. And he said, and it's unintentional. I believe that.

I don't think this is a game. Some people are trying to say, ah, this is cynicism. No, no. There's a lot of animosity here. And there's a little bit of fear in Spencer Brown's voice, a little bit of fear in Frank Smith's voice, a little bit of fear in Eddie's voice, a little bit of fear in Tyson's voice,

that maybe this will collapse, Matt. Maybe this will fall through, a fight that for at least two months, I would argue, was guaranteed, could just vanish. This is what we need to remember. And my biggest concern with all of this is the amount of noise that's creating. you know better than anybody when all you're hearing about is bickering between the two parties

the louder and louder that gets the more likely it is that the fight doesn't happen at the end great point and this is this is my concern now if it goes quiet for a week yeah that's good news yeah and then it's just a good week for it to go quiet with moses coming up then next week with katie coming up it's a really good week for it to go quiet if either the two boxers in the next 14 days vanished a training camp proper training camp and not on the road not doing a bit of work in there gym's in their houses, then I'd believe it. Because that's another thing we're looking at here. If the 20th of November, so that means you stop training by the 10th or 11th or the 12th,

and you're on site for your week of massive media commitments in New York or in London. So if we just count back then from, say, the 11th of November, we're not looking at 12 weeks. The best we can look at is a 10 week. This is true. Now, you know, assuming they both were ticking over or they'd been ticking over, since that weekend of fights, which was a month for go now. That's also quite interesting.

That's also something to be considered. You've got to consider it. I mean, there is, I think there's a real chance that it could collapse. Purely because, and purely because, you know, I've worked in boxing, not as long as you, but I've worked in boxing for 20 years now,

and it's not unusual. And you've been an insider for 20 years. So those are like serious years, if you don't mind my sense. They're condensed years. It's not unusual for a fight this size, regardless of the appeal to collapse at this stage. Would this be, if this collapses, Matt,

and I can remember fights that didn't happen but didn't necessarily collapse, they just didn't happen. Would this be a top three, or is it the biggest fight to collapse, that should have happened, sorry, that was made and done and dusted? So, for instance, I think the George former Muhammad Ali rematch,

which was never even discussed, is a fight that got away, a great fight that got away. But it doesn't count on the rules, introducing here because it wasn't signed and sealed. So as a signed and sealed fight, would this become the biggest signed and sealed fight to collapse if it never happens? Very possibly.

Yeah. Very possibly. Put you on the spot there. Sorry about that. No, no. I was just trying to think of fights that didn't happen. You immediately get drawn to the everyweight division. Riddick-Bow versus Lennox Lewis, for example, but it wasn't signed.

Absolutely, yeah. And I think the people that are saying this is too late are absolutely right. It is too late. but anybody saying it won't be a big fight for me is talking nonsense with the buildup with the people involved with the backstory with Netflix with a Netflix juggernaut behind it

it is going to be ginormous wherever it is and this is what I'm being told by everybody when I ask them behind the scenes are you concerned it's not going to happen and the answer nearly every single time is no because there is too much money on the table

well that I agree with imagine if it's if it's here And I've been waiting for a reply from Turkey Alashique people. I still never met Turkey Alishay. But Turkey becomes a hero here. Because he's opening line at the press conference is, I delivered for you. And that's all he's got to say.

And we can forget two months of the ins and outs. And Eddie asking him what is happening. He can absolutely become a massive boxing. Because over the last, since 2003, October, 2023, he has delivered fights that we didn't think we'd get. fights that came a little bit late. He has made things happen when he used to have those mad nights

till 5 o'clock in the morning with Frank Warren there, with Eddie Hearn there, sometimes with Bob Aaron there, and they'd come up with magical fights. That would happen. You know, they would create these fights and then send off his soldiers, so to speak,

and they'd go away and make them happen. This would be a real pity in the Turkey Alashake pantheon of fights I did and how I changed boxing if it ends up going overseas. He's got a chance here to become a super cult hero.

And one would think that he should be able to do that, given everything that he's done up to this point. But I can completely understand what Eddie Hearn is doing now. I mean, you know how much money that Turkey and Al-Sheek has staked and seller have staked into TKO. You know the fighters that have moved from match room to Zouffer. And this for Eddie Hearn is probably the last straw. He's saying, no, enough is enough.

I'm going to dig my heels in. I'm going to let everybody know that I'm back in and the snooker. Exactly. And the darts everything. Exactly. And I don't blame him one iota. Yeah. This is one of those pods, Matt,

where you're really fearful as you make it that literally you finish the pod. And we used to do this at Box Nation all the time. We'd do our live show. And, you know, you were in the studio occasionally. And we'd come off air and you'd hear someone in the background and go, oh! And I'd say, what's happened?

And they say, Warren's just announced, on those Zalani Tetti in a world title fight. I thought I'd mention Teddy. Obviously died at a weekend. And you think, oh, why did they tell us an hour ago before we did the show? And that used to happen almost weekly on a Monday with the show. And so we're dreading that by the, from making this here,

from Paddy the producer putting it together to getting it out. We're hoping that nothing happens that makes us look like Dumbo's. Well, let's hope so. And the one thing I will say on it as well is because we haven't really mentioned Dana White. Dana White has kind of been hovering around causing chaos. That's a fair coming. claiming that he broke the location deal, he brokered the network deal, he may well have done, but also earlier on claiming that he's going to be the promoter of the event.

Frankly, whoever admits to being the promoter of this event should hang their heads in chain. Yeah, absolutely. And it is quite striking the silence from Frank Warren's office, who of course in the past have exclusively promoted Tyson Fury. And Eddie really isn't talking about promoting. He's talking about getting the fight on. Let's get that right. So the ball really is in.

Turkey Alice Aks Court here. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history.

And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch will meet many medieval saints

in their bone boxes with Rachel Parris. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. Okay, Matt, and before we talk about this weekend's fights because I think there's a lot of fun this weekend in Birmingham

and at the O2, once this fight is announced, are you and I making our way to Heathrow or are we making our way to Wembley on November the 20th? Are we going to New York or are we going to Brent? New York, baby. New York, baby. Now, this is an interesting thing.

If we are going to New York, we have a couple of well-placed articles and some well-placed broadcasting. The nation could turn fairly at the sporting boxing, the sporting nation and the boxing nation could turn fairly vitriolic about this whole episode. We'll see, won't we? I mean, there's a lot of negative feeling

in the UK about the fight taking place in America. There's a lot of negative feeling in America about the fight taking place in America, frankly. I was reading some of Lou DeBella stuff earlier this week, and it's just like incredulous. Why? Why? For me, personally, honestly,

it should be happening in the UK. That's a no-brainer. If that's not going to happen, however, I'd pick New York. It's got that heavyweight romance. It's got Madison Square Garden. The Arles, Frasio, etc. So, yeah.

You know, about 15 years ago, I discovered the ring, the old Ali, the ring that they had. It was just before they sent that ring up to Canistota. And it was the same ring. I was there. I was there for the publicity on like the Thursday of, I don't know, whatever fighting was 15, 16, 17, 18 years ago, that sort of distance. And one of the guys I was with was one of those old New York publicists. And he said, no, that's the.

actual ring. Because they had years they didn't have fights, Spenderson Square Garden remember. It was really bizarre. They went into a

real big slump. They were massive problems with the mob at that time. This is only like 30 years ago or so. But that was the actual ring and I got to see it

and it was just stored alongside laws, all sorts of other stuff and there it was the actual ring. It's a new ring now. That ring, I believe, as I say, is up at the Hall of Fame. Matt, I've got to ask you a couple

of quick things before I kick you out and send you on your way to your Marilyn Monroe Fest, which is nothing wrong with Marilyn Monroe Fest at all. Michaela Meyer, no connection to Marilyn Monroe, but you know what? She does her bit with a blonde hair

against Chantelle Cameron, three versions of the super well-to-weight stroke-like middleweight title up for grabs. Caroline Dubois in the latest lightweight world title fight against the woman that's only had four bouts called Amelia Moore. It's a strange old fight and it's an odd one. It's a good MVP bill.

I like this MVP. I like Maya and Cameron. I like it an awful lot. It doesn't matter about the weights. They could be fighting it. lightweight, they could be fighting a light welter, they could be fighting a welter, makes a difference. The fact is they're fighting and I like the fight.

I like the fight. I mean, with Mayor and Cameron, you've got two of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the female co. Without question. And so what's not to like about that? And also, whenever you've got a fight and you can't immediately pick the winner in your head, again, that's a good fight. Should happen every time. It doesn't, unfortunately, but that is the case with this one. Yeah, I was thinking about it today. And there's two things. First of all, a draw is not a bad, not a bad couple of quid if you're gambling

in person. Not, I'm encouraging gambling, I'm just telling you. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you the other thing that's an even bigger chance or likelihood is a split decision.

It's just got split decision written all over here. If this is wide, either way, I would be absolutely stunned because even though they're 36 and 35, I haven't seen enough in their last three or four fights to suggest to me

that they're about to become an old woman overnight. They've still got plenty left in the tank. So a tight decision seems good. Now, not far from here, out on East London stroke south London

it's bizarre the way the Thames works at the O2 Moses Itama upgraded to full IBF status against Philip Hergovich

a fight which I'm told Moses Atama is a heavy hefty favourite a hefty hefty favourite Matt do you remember you're a smart man

you weren't around at the time and I wasn't at the fight even though I get constantly asked the Rumbling in a jungle 1974 I was not at a fight

I was 11 years of age give me a break people I'm fairly precocious but that's ripping the proverbial out of it. And I do get asked all the time. And I get asked, and people are really surprised when I say, no, I was 11.

And they say, really? And I say, yeah, really. Anyway, going into that fight, George Foreman was unbeaten, I think, in 28 fights. He destroyed everybody. Ken Norton left in that heap on the floor. Joe Frazier bounced off his feet, left in a heap.

Jose Roman, left in a heap. Everyone else, all of the other people, left in heaps, cut, splattered, smashed. Going into that fight against the old man, Ali, there were genuine fears for Ali's health. In fact, several of the British newspapers did that famous ambulance run. It was part

of their paid-dust spreads. The route from the ring inside the stadium, I'm tapping the table to the medical centre hospital where Ali was going to get treated when Foreman knocked him unconscious. That's not me inventing things. You know that happened. We've read the same books, we've read the same newspapers.

And the theory was, and the scary thing about this fight was, that once Foreman destroyed Arlie in two or three rounds and sent him to hospital, The idea would be then that heavyweight boxing was over for years. Like there was no one else left on the table. You know, you can't recycle at that time George Chavalo. You can't recycle Jimmy Ellis.

You can't recycle Jerry Quarry because they'd all been taken care of by various people. It would have been George and no one. In some ways, the way that we're building Moses up is not dissimilar. If he walks for Philip Hergovich in two or three rounds, like he did Dillian White and like he did Jermaine Franklin, where's the future? If the old man Ussig's gone, If the old man Fury's gone

and if the old man AJ's gone where's the future? Is boxing going to be done for seven or eight years? I'm being mildly facetious but only mildly facetious. There's an awful lot of hype around Moses Atama

in that people he is already deemed invincible by an awful lot of people and all my time working in boxing I can't remember anybody I agree with you in the heavyweight division where everybody was in agreement

and this guy's going to go and rule the world the only person really that compared was Joshua when he was on the way up and then of course you go back to the 80s and you've got Mike Tyson, which Moses is constantly going to be compared to. All of a sudden,

we'll realise that Moses and Toma probably isn't invincible. And if you look at it, you mention the names there, Jermaine Franklin, Dillian White, we've got Dempsey McKean. Okay, they are really impressive victories. The manner, he's barely put a foot wrong. They're terrific.

They're terrific. They're terrific. However, they will come a point where he's going to have a difficult fight. And I suppose the big... A difficult moment. A difficult moment. Yeah, a difficult moment.

And the question. is and what people are expecting is that may happen this weekend but then you look at Philip Hergovich and Philip Hergevich is the outsider for good reason you look at his pedigree you look at his recent performances but you also look at his own record

and I did this recently and you're looking for his best win was it David Adelae He was the controversial decision over Zillet Zhang which I thought he lost that day was still tight was it Joe Joyce so really Joyce was a good win but then you know Joyce perhaps Hergevich may not turn out to be the toughest opponent that Moses

a tournament of Thomas A Tournament's face. I think he will be. What I liked with Hergovich is the way that he's conducted himself. Some might say he's been a little bit distasteful at times but that guy has got belief in himself and that is what is required when you're going in with an invincible man. When I spoke to Big Phil and I've got a bit of relationship

with Big Phil over the last three or four years and mostly by name dropping amateur fights I saw I always find that works. If you can tell them you were an amateur fight you were ringside in Rio or something, no, you know, there is peek up a little bit because they've got you've got their attention. And what Big Phil said to me

when we interviewed him about four or five weeks ago, he said, listen, I won't do his accent and I get in trouble. He said, this guy might be as good as everyone says, but no one really knows. And what he said was, and it's quite sensible, he said, how can anyone really know? He's never been there. How do we really, really know?

Are we taking it just from sparring partners? Are we taking it from the last few fights? So that was Philip being really raw and open. He said, you know what? He said, he might stop me in a round. He said, he knocks me out in a round, round, then great. Then he's as good as everyone says.

But we don't know. And I like that. I like that. We don't know. I kind of like that expression. So I think that's attached to Moses, because as much as I think he's a terrific talent, he's obviously fast.

He's got a good eye. Dedication, no problem. We still don't know. We don't. And the thing is, we've been hearing so much about Moses for years. It's not just when he turned professional. When he was a schoolboy in his shorts going to gym.

Exactly. I remember speaking to Bill Davis, Ronnie Davis, his brother in Brighton. Bill Davis was looking after Harvey Dykes and Moses did some rounds with Harvey Dykes and he's just like, you've never seen anybody like this. And Harvey's a tough boy.

Yes, and you've been hearing these stories and they've been building and building. For about six years, he's 21 now, for at least five years since he was 15. Absolutely. So we presume that he is going to go on and do all the things that are expected of him. However, if you just break it down to his 14 fights,

as impressive as they are, we haven't seen enough. Eight in the first round, remember? We haven't seen enough to... lay the mortgage on the fact that this guy is going to go on and rule the world. We haven't seen him in the business end of a championship fight. We haven't seen him take a shot. So we have to see these things before all of everything else comes true. He gets a little bit tetchy when you ask him about that.

And he says, well, you know, it gets a bit like that. He got a bit like that with me talking to him down with the O2 in the background. And I said, listen, Moses, you know, I think you're an incredible talent. You know, you're certainly one of the best 21-year-olds at any weight that I've encountered during, you know, nearly 40 years of being paid to do what I do. And I've got no problem with that. But there have been other incredibly precocious 20 and 21-year-olds, and that seemed Hamid turned out was the same kind of thing.

Joe Kowzaki, if you follow him, even though he was a bit older when he turned pro, was that same kind of thing, you know, untouchable was an amateur and everyone was talking about extreme. Even someone like Ricky Hatton. And, of course, those three did go on and massively achieved. but even those three weren't lorded and stuck on this peddough, you know, this ridiculous pedestal. I mean, you know, he's close to Trafalgar Square status already

and he's still never been past about seven or eight rounds. And I'm not convinced he'll go past that this weekend, to be honest with you. But what do you get tested somehow, Matt? What's your gut feeling with big feeling? My gut feeling, unfortunately, is that this could be quite one-sided. Okay. He's my gut feeling. And my fear regarding Philip Hergovich is

how susceptible he used to cuts. You can imagine him around the Christmas table putting his paper crown on after he's pulled the cracker and the cut and getting a cut from that. Absolutely, yeah. That is the concern for me. We know how accurate and how skilled Moses Atama is.

If he has two rounds where he's accurate and he's still... And he does throw choppy shots as well. And you could potentially see Hergovich with a horrible gaping cut that could essentially end the fight. But Will Phil have a go? I'll get my bit out first. I think Big Phil will have a go.

He might go down. It might get caught in the first round, but I'm convinced Big Phil will have a go. I don't think Big Phil's going to try and throw a jab, hold, lean, get through the first. No, I think Big Phil will have a go, because, I mean, somewhere in his mind he'll know, and he's fought enough top-fought quality fighters as an amateur,

as an amateur, in the WSB and all over, all the tournaments he's been in. It's a long amateur career. He's fought enough guys that were sort of unbeatable and untouchable and dangerous men to know that one of the ways to expose an unbeatable and untouchable man is to put it on it. him early. So I think he might take a risk, which is a brave and bold move. I think he's got to take a risk. It's got to, yeah.

You can't be too respectful of this young man. You can't. You can't. And I completely agree with you, Steve. I think Hurgovich will give it a good go. I think it will be quite a pleasing spectacle for those of us that like watching two men tear lumps out of each other. A bit of blood. Yeah, I think there will be. And I think that we will probably be more and more convinced about Moses-Otorma's potential after the fight. So let's finish our heavyweight chat with, you know, I talked about how if George Foreman had demolished Muhammad Ali

like he was meant to do in the Rumbling in the jungle, then George Foreman would have been the greatest fighter on the planet. No man could live with him. If he beats Philip Hergovich, he's not yet the most dangerous, feared man on the planet. man on the planet, is he or is he? Or does he become that? Is that the belt that the WBC sadly didn't make a, didn't create?

If he wins in three rounds, it's completely one-sided. He does a job on Hercovic that nobody has ever done before. If he performs better against Hercowicz than Daniel Dubois did, for example, Moses Atama is going to be regarded as the best heavyweight in the world, and probably quite rightly so. But I think in order to get to kind of George Foreman levels, unfortunately, there isn't the old guard, which with your comparison

was Mohammed Ali, the old guard is going. Joshua's not going to face him. Tyson Fury won't face him. Alexander Usick won't face him. So Moses has got to create his own coronation. And to do that, he will have to beat the likes of the Dubois and all the other heavyweights and the cabials, etc. To get that.

So he's kind of there, but not quite a... I'll tell you what, we started with Marilyn Monroe. We did a detour, which wasn't a bad detour. Then we talked about Eddie Hearn's concerns about the fight and we tried to break down why the Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fufi Fri FI has not yet been announced. Then we did a little bit of Michaela Mayo and Chantel Cameron, and then we finished up with Moses Atama, and whether or not he's the best fighter on the planet.

Matt Christie was absolutely brilliant, and I've been Steve Bunce, and this has been Five Live Boxing. Five Live Sports. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket you laugh. Check for Lvbw. Ouch. Lives on BBC Sounds.

Straight back down the ground, this girl. Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a ball cricket and it's the huge one. Cricot, on five-life sport. Oh, I'm living every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously.

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