5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - Carl Froch on Hamed v Barrera

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Former world super middleweight champion Carl Froch joins Mike and Steve to revisit the night in Las Vegas that came to define the career of Prince Naseem Hamed - a comprehensive defeat to the Mexican Marco Antonio Barrera. 19-year-old Froch was in the stands as a paying fan. Was Naz overhyped or did outside factors contribute to defeat in his most significant fight?

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for the latest in our greatest fight series. Last week we heard from Ricky Hatton, brilliantly detailing his amazing night against Costizu in June of 2005. This time the focus on two more of Britain's great boxing heroes in recent years. One of them in the ring, the other, talking about the deeds of his hero, Steve.

Nassim Hamid finally gets to Las Vegas. But you know what, Mike, let's tell the truth, wasn't really the fight we wanted. And we're hearing from Carl Frotch talking to us about how pivotal that fight was for him. It's against Marco Antonio Berreira. We're going back to April of 2001, as Steve says in Las Vegas.

And a night, Steve, towards the end of Nassim Hamme's career, in fact, it would turn out to be the penultimate fight in his professional career, a night when it's come to define him and all he achieved in his career for good or for bad, for the critics and for those who fell in love with him. And for five years, we knew that a fight against Berera

would define Nassim Hamid. For five years, we waited for the fight to happen. And for five years, it never happened. And then when it did happen, you know, I've got to tell you, I think this and perhaps I'm biased, but it did define him. And I think the definition felt the wrong way.

I really do, Mike. And we're going to hear very shortly, Steve, from Carl Frot, who had so many successes himself in the ring. But in the way that he talks about Nassim Hamid being a hero, it's hard to dismiss just what an impact, certainly and surprisingly, a featherweight made on the sport, not just in the UK, but across the world.

You know that word we like to throw around game changer? Well, Nassim Hamid was a game changer. Here was this kid, this small kid, that had been in Brendan Engels, Jim in Sheffield forever, and he transformed British boxing. He gave it a boost. He gave it a boost of colour. He gave it a boost of excitement.

he delivered cash, he delivered money, he delivered everything. He just unfortunately did not deliver when he landed in Las Vegas, and that's where he had to deliver, Mike. And Carl Frotch delivered on many an exciting night as well across the years of his career in the super middleweight division in winning the world title on more than one occasion. And Carl's with us now, Carl, it's great to have you with us. And just elaborate on what I was saying there

about how Nassim Hamer was such a pivotal character. in your boxing career? Well, Naz was my inspiration to get back into boxing. I boxed as an amateur, as you know, and I got picked a box for England. I think I won two ABA titles, on a medal in the world championships, etc. But I never had any ambitions of really turning professional.

I was just doing it to get back into fitness and get myself fit. And, you know, I missed it from the age of 15 to the age of 17, it was more 18, 19 years old because my mum bought a pub in Newark. and so the story was I came away from boxing for four years and it was watching Nassim Hamid on pay-per-view and watching his big far it's not even on pay-per-view early on in his career as well

got a couple of old tapes I think it was born to thrill or license to thrill a natural born thriller on VHS I remember buying their videos from the video shot and sticking them in and sitting there watching Nassimama doing his front flip and knocking people out with the upper courts and is it Belcastro and somebody I think it was a European fight some of the early store

and when he was big time, when he was like pay-per-view in Britain before he went over and fought Kevin Kelly at Madison Square Garden, it was like, this guy's just amazing. I just love watching him. I think everyone was the same though. I mean, Nassim Ahmed was a phenomenon of his era.

And for a featherweight to bring such excitement to boxing, it's not really heard of, is it? It's usually heavy weights transcend the sport. Feather weights don't really, because he was such a big puncher and so exciting. a different is where is he from Yemen I mean and it was a Brendan Engel style

which was the awkward done off of that style it just got me excited and that got me back into boxing and as an amateur when I started back in boxing I was throwing that silly uppercut from out of range and it got me through the World Championship through to the semi-final actually

throwing that uppercut because a couple of times when I was coming unstuck with a jab and not quite finding my range and things I was doing wasn't working and all of a sudden I throw that big silly uppercut from out of range I think it was Vigal Alec Porov in the World Championship quarterfinals

from Azerbaijan I just smashed him to bits with the uppercat I just kept throwing that Nassim lead uppercop and my hand was hurting but I just thought I mean obviously worked on the shot on the pads and the bags and I've worked on it inspiring

but that shot and everything what my style was based around was inspired by Prince Nassim Hammond and it was just before the world championship actually in Belfast in 2001 when I went over to Las Vegas with a very good friend of mine, Jason, and my big brother Lee, the renovator.

So we both went out there, just three of us, went out to Vegas with our last 100 quid and stayed in the Circus Circus Hotel for a week. And yeah, absolutely hated every minute of it. I just didn't enjoy Vegas. On the build-up to the fight, I was bored stiff. My older brother was a degenerate alcoholic and a gambler.

So he was loving life in his element. And me and Jason Gano were just following him around the casino, waiting for Saturday to come. So we did the way in and said, oh, that was good. We enjoyed that. And then fight night was just a massive letdown. And Carl, you were saying there about how, you know, it's usually the heavyweights that dominate the global scene.

But I'm just looking at the purses for that fight. Hamad was paid $6 million. This is very nearly 20 years ago. And that's the fight that we're going to study today. And that works out at around very close to $9 million today. How many boxers on the planet today are earning that for a single fight? And Steve, for you, he was a big part of those foremost years in your career when you were, first of all, building your reputation. But then close to the peak of your writing career, the Telegraph and other places.

In all fairness, Carl's been done my job for me because he's painted the picture that so many people, overlook, so many people neglect. Carlos painted that picture from Belcastro. It's interesting you should mention Finchanzo Belcastro. Twelve rounds in Sheffield. Nas won every second of every single round. Drop Belcastro in the first,

dropped Belcastro in the last. Belcastro had lost world title fights on points. Nas destroyed him. Absolutely destroyed him. He never been knocked down before. Then we moved through the other European fights. We moved through nights. He changed boxing in Great Britain.

He was absolutely brilliant. He dragged people along. Granny's in supermarkets. Before we had the distancing problem we got now, they gathered and they talked about him. That was the simple rule. And I tell, I can't remember one single fighter

whose life was so exceptional, so brilliant, his ring career so glittering, and yet he's judged for just one fight, and that's the one we're going to watch. I think it's really harsh. I do. I'm being absolutely honest of you.

I think it's harsh. Carl's absolutely right. At that time, in the late 90s, At 2000, 2001, Nas was the biggest boxer on the British boxing planet by some considerable stretch. He changed the face of boxing, Mike. And clearly, as you said, Carl, an inspiration to you. But on that night, and the fight we're going to watch, as Steve says,

is the one that generates most debate around Nasim Hammett. Can you remember back to that week when you said you were bored in Vegas? Were you just expecting another Hamid win? because he was a massive favourite with the bookmakers, even in Vegas against a Mexican. You could have got three to one against Marco Antonio Barrera, which given it was a year after that amazing first fight in what became a trilogy against Derek Morales,

just shows how highly rated Hamid was and how easily he was expected to win. Yeah, it's crazy how much of a book his favourite it was because we was getting terrible odds back in Naz, was having to try and pick rounds. and I just thought, Marco Antonio Brero, you can't really pick against him in a round

because he's so tough. You've seen him take so many punches and stay on his feet and not really getting any trouble for his whole career. I just thought, I don't think Naz's going to knock him out, but he's a massive puncher.

So, yeah, we was looking at thinking, okay, he's definitely going to win, so let's just go for the win. We'll pick a couple of rounds. We'll have a cheeky $20 on a few rounds. It just didn't work out, did it? I mean, Naz was a massive favorite. Everyone expected him to win,

and I was one of them people, me and my brother and my friend Jason was all there thinking Naz is going to go in there and just totally dominate and soon as he starts landing that lead up a court and his big swinging overhand whether he's fighting from Southport or orthodox whichever hand he lands with,

it's a big crushing blow and it inflicts damage on his opponent and I just thought as soon as he starts connecting the fight's going to be over. But after the fight, subsequent to the actual fight, there was a documentary release that showed how bad the training camp was and how badly the sparring had gone. And I spoke to do that.

Dominic Ingle and Brendan Engel as well, the late Brendan Engel since. Because I was out with Junior Witter in America when Howard Eastman took on Bernard Hopkins. Junior Witter was on another card against Lovemore & Do. And I was chatting to spend a lot of time around Ingle Camp. And I was just fascinated that all of them knew he was going to lose, apparently. And they all knew that he was finished. And it was his time was done. Because at the time, myself and all the boxing fans,

but held Nassim in such high regard, it was inconceivable that it could just get outclass the way you did. You know what, Carl, you've touched on it there. You've done it brilliantly. I was out there until about three days before, four days before the fight. Then I got basically evicted from Las Vegas because I was told I wouldn't get in. And by then, news was trickling in from this absolute disastrous training camp in Palm Springs. And the film you're talking about was actually made by the Hamid family.

Their production company produced it. And as Brenningle said to me, the night it was screened, he said, You couldn't have done a bigger hatchet job if you'd have paid someone to do it. And what that showed is it showed the complete lack of sparring in it, the complete lack of preparation. And of course, we can all be after timers. We could all be geniuses once the first bell sounds. But Carl, if we were watching this live and we could stop it after one minute, you'd turn to me, I'd turn to you, Mike would turn to you, Mike would turn to me, we'd all say the same thing. Look at his body, he's in terrible shape, and he's absolutely clueless.

There's something wrong. And it's not being an off-a-timer. You could tell watching it. He was not there. And that's because there had been no training camp. They'd been a gathering of people wearing Nassim Hamid clothing in Palm Springs. But gathering for six weeks doesn't make a training camp. Manny Stewart kept making parachute appearances

because he was training Lennox Lewis at the same time who was fighting two weeks later in South Africa. He kept making appearances and leaving with a glum face. Well, all of that together creates the chaos. the mayhem that we're going to watch. And I know many of you, when we're watching, you're listening, but you like to watch along as well. So we'll give you time to queue it up online.

We are going to take selected rounds. We're going to do rounds 1, 2, 8, 10, 11 and 12. But fear not, we'll give you warnings each time. We're going to skip from one round to another. And we're going to begin with the ring walk in Las Vegas. And, Carl, you were talking about how, you know, he dragged you back into boxing. and the ring walks were a real part of the Nassim Hamid experience.

His ring walks were fascinating. They made the sport even bigger and better than what it ever was. And this particular ring walk, I was watching his ring walk with a pair of binoculars because I was up in the jeepsie's. And I managed to walk down and blag my way to near ringside. And as he made his way to the ring, somebody chucked a pint of beer on him. Somebody doused him in it. He came in on the carpet and someone flicked the beer on him,

or did he come on a ring like a metal ring? One of them was a carpet. This may not have been the carpet actually, but he came in on like a hoop. And somebody threw, you might even see it where somebody chucks the beer on him. So he's covered in beer,

and I thought, I was really, really angry. I wanted to get down to the guy that did it and have a word of him. And I'm saying I had a word of him on ear because I don't want to sound like I'm threatening, but I actually wanted to put shot into him. Because I thought,

that's going to unsettle him terribly. And then when he got to the ring, his hands were slippy. He never did the somersault, did it? Now, as significant as that was, the fact that he never did the front somersault over the top road give me a bad feeling. I thought, why did he do his front flip over the top road?

That's why he always does his front flip, like from a superstitious point of view. I thought he's been covered in beer. He's not done his front flip, and all this was in my head, and I thought, I'm really, really annoyed here. But when I watched that documentary we talked about earlier, you actually realized that it wasn't the beer

or the lack of the front flip. It was the preparation that the fact that Marco Barrier Michael and Tony Barrier was exceptional that night. He just boxed, really, really well, didn't he, Barrera? He didn't put a foot wrong. It was textbookly brilliant. Apparently, the reason why he didn't do the front flip is, if it's in this fight, is because one of his former promoters had marked the cards of Barrera's people

and said, listen, to do the front trip, he has to cut the bit of leather that keeps the glut, the thumb attached to the glove, because that's the only way to get the grip. But they made sure he didn't cut the piece of lever, so therefore he couldn't get the grip on the rope to do the front flip. So in addition to his gloves being doused and wet from beer, they weren't cut like they had been in previous fights. Well, that's an interesting revelation from my point of view, because, yeah, you wouldn't be able to physically get your thumbs over the top rope and grab the gloves.

And he does check the gloves and look at them. And I thought that's because they were wet, but he could have dried them. So now that clears that up for me. But again, he didn't do the front flip. And doing a front flip into the ring would sight you up and give you a bit of a lift. Sometimes you do tuck jumps and sometimes you get into your rhythm. But it was just wrong from the start to finish. I'm not talking about the start of the ring walk.

I'm talking about, here's the big hoop that he gets in the ring on. It was the camp, it was from day one of the camp right through because after speaking to Dominic Ingle and Brendan in America when he fought, when Junior Whittabot, I just thought to myself, I cannot believe how terrible that was from start to finish, and I spent my last 400 quid on it.

I mean, these ring entrances were always amazing. there was always something else. I mean, when he becomes low here, see if you can cash your eye on somebody throwing something at him. I think it gets picked up. Soon it gets picked up on a YouTube video I've seen since. If you just watch as it becomes low,

as he gets lower here. I mean, when he came in against Steve Robinson, he was hit with a coin on the nose and you can see the blood. You could actually see the coin bounce off his nose. And we've just seen Hamad's father applauding in the ring awaiting the arrival of his son. Here you go.

Did you see that? I did see it, yeah. He got absolutely covered. That's the beer now and he's quite angry about that. He's asking who was that, who was that? He's talking to the security personnel and asking who it was as he was lowered on that seat that was framed within a hoop, as you said at the beginning, Carl, and was raised towards the roof of the MGM Grand Garden Arena and then lowered

towards the competition floor. And it's at that point almost as he touched the floor that that liquid was thrown at him, as you say, possibly a pint of beer. but now he's making his last few strides on the way to the ring. Marco Antonio Barrera has been in that ring for fully 10 minutes. The fight was delayed for the best part of an hour, apparently, because of some preparations around the elaborate work involved in that ring entrance, but also because there was an issue with the gloves and the handwraps of Hammett.

He's smiling now as he comes towards the ring side, puts both gloves on the top rope, swings back and forward, and gets ready to do the forward flip, but I think he's going to have second thoughts about that, and he does. Can't get the grip, as you said, Carl. Did you see where he tried to wipe his hand? That's when I thought, oh, his hands are soaked because that fear. But you're right, you can't get the grip.

He couldn't put his thumb around the top rope. So, I mean, cutting that bit of tape, that bit of leather, stitching between the thorn and the rest of the glove, that's a dangerous move anyway for him, because it's a disadvantage, because if he catches his thumb when he throws a punch, that'll bend his thumb back, and that's what I did against Brian McGee,

it snapped my thumb in round three. I've got a Bennett's fracture, it's called, when you break that first metacarpal that's connected to your thumb. And if he's in previous fights, I mean, he did use to damage his hands quite badly, though, didn't he? But in previous fights,

if he put that bit of the glove, you can see why he's damaged his hands because that needs to be attacked. Look at Buffer. Look how young he looks there. He's only 62 there. He looks great, doesn't it? What is it now, Buffer, Michael Buffer?

because he lost still looks apart. Well, if he was 60 there, he's kicking on now, isn't he? Oh, dear. Now, we're going to take it from the first bell very shortly. So for those of you who are going to watch, as well as listen along with us, we're going to take it, as I say, from the bell. Just to fill in some of those statistics before we get underway, both of them, 27 years of age.

Both of them apparently at their peak. As I said earlier, Hamid was a massive odds-on favourite, not just here in the UK, but also in Las Vegas. Marco Antonio Barrera, you could get odds of three to one. And very similar career trajectory for both of them. Barrera had had 15 world title fights at this stage. NAS had had 16 world title fights. As we've been saying, this was the post-Engle Jim era for Naz.

He won his first world title at the age of 21, as did Marco Antonio Barrera. Barrera's best work had been done in the Super Bantamweight division. This was up four pounds in the featherweight division. It was Barrera's first fight at featherweight, and that was one of the reasons, as I said about that poll earlier on, that 28 out of 30 reporters who were polled in the Las Vegas Media Center went for Nassim Hammett to win this fight,

even though it was just over a year on from Barrera being involved in that tremendous first fight against Eric Morales. Joe Cortez is the referee in the center of the ring. If you want to get set now, we're going to take it pretty much from the first bell. Firm but fair is the last message, always from Joe Cortez. And this was the night that many people expected Nassim Hamid to cement his greatness against the Mexican Marco Antonio Berrera, a previous world champion in the Super Bantamweight Division.

So the bell sounds for the start of the, first round, Carl. And what struck me straight away watching back then and again, and again, just watching it over again for the last few days to get a feel of. It is how Marco Antonio Barreira steps off almost immediately in stark contrast to what he did against Eric Morales just over a year earlier, where he went charging forward right at the outset, whereas here he's waiting and waiting, even in the early stages for Hamid to let go, even though he's holding his ground in the center of the ring here for a lot of the fight he was happy to let Hamid come to him no well he took the center of the ring as you can see here and he just as you say as you rightly say he just takes

a little half step back with that back foot and that just creates the distance in the gap and that means that massim Hamid has to reach in with his with his punches um that's such that's such a shot you know and I don't even think vera was looking for it I think he just found himself in a position there Mike and Carl where he was close to him enough to let the left hook go because it wasn't going to be his intention as you were saying

and suddenly he finds himself in range and lands the simplest of shots it's not even tactically brilliant he's in range the guy's closer and he can let a shawl left hook go and nearly drops Hamid

that shot well he's just Barreira's got his balance and his weight distribution is not having to reach or do anything wrong he's able to just get his punches off from a comfortable position

almost as if like he's stood in front of a bag and he's just able to just let his shots go comfortably. And he's doing that by controlling the ring with his feet. It's just technically so brilliant what Pereira does here in this part. It really is. Mike, looking at this, look at this the pair of you. And I know I said it earlier on,

but Hamid looks smaller. His body lacks definition. Okay, so that whole four-pound thing is completely out the window very early on. Look at the, pulls it there. It looks like, if you look at those two there, It looks like Hamid's the guy moving up in weight or two weights. 52 seconds on the clock in the opening round and it's been pretty much Berera all the way at this stage

and building on his successes when he lands those heavy shots he comes straight back in and here he landed another solid left hook although Hamid came back with a left uppercard of his own. Hamid here for just about the first time in the round switching to the orthodox dance. A lovely left hook to the body there from Berrera as we move inside the last half a minute of the opening round. Now Berera is stepping forward and it looks to me, Carl, is it at this stage as if

Hamid is almost surprised about what's coming at him. Yeah, as well as being surprised at what's coming at him because you can see the physical strength of Berera. I mean, he's in real trouble there, Naz. He's trying to find his feet here. He's almost as if he's got hurt there. That was a terrible first round for Nas. He's surprised his shot and he's unable to get anything off himself. So he'll be sitting down at the end of round one there thinking, nothing's working here. He likes to get a hold of the fight early now, whether it's just with a couple of them flicking backhand type jabs he throws

or one power point, he likes to go back to his corner and think, I've got him here, I can catch him, I've got my range, I know I can land, and I know I could hurt him. He'd have gone back to his corner there thinking, I've just been totally like, I've had no success there,

I've been totally outclassed almost. He'll still be thinking I could do something, it's only round one, but that was a bad round for him psychologically. And you said he goes back to the corner, car, he goes back to, Oscar Suarez, not Manny Stewart. Mani Stewart's the one on the outside of the rose.

Because the deal was they'd alternate in the corner, which is such lunacy and idiocy that when you think about it now, you can't believe it. He's hurt from that left hook. He goes back to the corner. He's got Manny talking in one here. He's got Oscar Suarez in front of him. He's already slightly marked underneath the right eye.

And let's get it right. Berera is still fighting like Berrera. So they've not suddenly come up against the guy that's changed his style. The preparation was zero. Rubbish. Absolutely. Totally agree. Preparation is terrible.

And then you get the performance, which is terrible. And we're moving into round two now. Two minutes and 40 seconds or so on the clock. And Berrera noticeably moving around time and again to his left. Joe Cortez just warning Nasim Hamid there for throwing a backhand, just flicking the glove rather than actually stepping in and punching with the glove and a warning from Joe Cortez there. And as I say here,

Barrera moving around towards the left. For all of Hamid's reputation for being a heavy puncher with both hands, Berera is moving around to the left. They've clearly identified the left hand, particularly from the south ball stance as the most dangerous shot. Hamid going forward with a jab here, but again, Berera sees it coming and almost motions to him as if to say, come and let's have some more.

With two minutes to go in this, the second round and a sense that Berera is still in control. What was it like in the crowd at this stage, Carl? Can you remember? Well, all the NAS fans were really quiet, but Pereira had quite a lot of Mexican fans that were making a lot of noise, and NAS wasn't particularly, it wasn't really liked that much. There was a few traveling fans,

but nothing like when Ricky Hatton used to travel abroad. So the crowd was just seemed massively in Barera's favor, cheering him, and it was a few cheers and some noise coming from the crowd in Naz's favor, but not much. The crowd, because it wasn't a big British crowd, it didn't seem as bad as it was. There was just cheers for Barrera's success. But me, my brother, my mate I was out there with, we were just silenced and we was getting constant agro from the Mexican next to us.

This is, this is Barreira, not allowing Nassimami to try and rough him up and get strong with him. So Barrera's thinking, you're not going to grab hold of me and try a man under me. You get some back. So that's why he jumps to the floor with him and gets on top of him. This shows that Barrera is ready for these roughhouse tactics and he's prepared to give it back as good as he gets it and it's not allowing NAS to get any touch. He Naz-Aff was his hand there first.

He's not allowing NAS to get any kind of advantage in there. And a police officer and an official from the Nevada State Redick Commission got up onto the ring apron there over in the far corner where that skirmish took place. Yes, Marco Andonio Berera being raced. to the floor, but then wandering him with a forearm to make sure that Hamid knew exactly who he was and what he was. Teak tough Mexican and Hamid being made to miss here again. And what I noticed in this second round was just how accurate Barera was with the left hand jab. And this time he leads off with the right hand, followed by left-top. But finishes again with the jab and lands on the right-hand side of the face of Hamid. And Hamid, time and again found it so difficult to get past that left-hand lead jab. 20 seconds to go. round two and Berera holding his ground in the center of the ring but still looking so controlled Mike he might be looking controlled but Berera's not having to work hard he's just having to be

Berera this is the point of making here is that that Naz knows what he's going to get there's no there's no movement he's not going out to his left it's obvious Berera's moving away from the left hand why isn't he why isn't he going out to the right to try and to try and bring the shot in why isn't he trying different things he's got he now he's got Manny in the corner and Suarez leaning in. This is courage. This is a man. He's hardly seen Mani during the training camp because I say Mani's 150 miles away preparing Lennox Lewis for the Hasim Rachman fight in South Africa and also doubling up working on the film with George Clooney, oceans, whatever the heck it was. At this stage, this fight is an unmitigated disaster. I'm the biggest Nassim Hamid fan in the

world and that's official. Carl might be the second. What we're watching here, what we're watching here is a reputation and a fighter being ruined by complete and utter lack of preparation. And by the way, the Mexican's not bad. Two rounds completed. We're going to move on to the eighth round, a pointer for those of you who are watching along as well as listening along. We're going to move on to round number eight. But just reflecting before we do move on, Carl, on that round two, when they had that skirmish, when Hamid wrestled Berera, the canvas and then Berera fired him with his forearm and gave Hamid everything that he was

receiving from Hamid and then it was Hamid who was really keen to touch gloves at the end of that particular melee what would that signal to you if you were in the ring with him well I never liked touching gloves with with my opponent after the round I don't want to tap the gloves and say yeah good round you're my friend and you know if there's a bit of a bit of a commotion like you're you're holding onto your opponent's head or you've hit him after the rep's head break and you get a bit of a warning off the ref. I never like to touch gloves before you carry on fighting because I just don't like that respect thing.

You've got respect before the fight. Of course you have. You've got respect after the fight, but during the fight is the respect's there. You've got personal respect, but you don't want to show it too much. You want to show that you're there to win the fight and do the job and inflict damage on your opponent, not in a sinister way, but you want to knock him out. You want to get the job done and beat him. You don't like him.

You're not his friend. I never touched Mikkel Kester's gloves during the fight. I didn't like him when I was fighting him, but it was a gentleman before and after. So I didn't like the fact that Naz started the kudufel, for use of a better word. He was the one that started that. And Berrera kind of finished it with his forearm

as if to say, you're not going to push me around and bully me around. You're going to have some back. And it was Nas who kind of offered the peace offering, offered the hand and said, come on, let's be friends, let's touch gloves and get on with it. So that showed me that Nassim Hamid psychologically wasn't getting it.

his own way and he was thinking to himself, bloody, I need to leave that alone. We've moved on now to round eight from round two. In the intervening action, Barrera managed to stay in control of those rounds that we've missed out. The only one that Hamid won on all three judges' scorecards was round five. And as we're moving into this, the eighth round with half a minute gone at this stage, all three judges have Barrera in front, two of them by five rounds to two. And the other one by, four rounds to three. So still plenty of scope at this stage for Hamid to get back into the fight. At this stage now, with 45 seconds gone in round number eight, it's Berera who's decided to go on

the front foot, bends down, throws a lovely right hand to the body and just misses with a clinical left hook towards the chin as Hamid is trying to find success with that overhand looping left, but walks on to another one of those crisp, sharp jabs, Carl, that have been such a feature of the successes for Barrera so far. Well, he's just getting systematically broken down with that jab and the range of Pereira. When Nas tries to throw anything, Barrera's defence is just too solid. We see him there catching that left cross from Nassi Mamad from the south pole position. He just catches it on his

forearm and his gloves. So Naz is throwing the big shots now. He's getting a little bit more range closed down on Barrera, but he's still unable to land anything effective. And Nazim Ahmed has to land a big shot and a heavy shot that hurts his opponent in order to take control of of most of his fights. I mean, he can outbox the lower level opponents when you're building up,

up to world level. But when you get to world level, you can't just easily outbox these opponents. He's hurt there, a court of a counter-right-hand from Barrera. And that's Barreira just took the tiny step back from one of Nasim Hamid's big swing, looping left crosses from the South Force stance.

And Barrera just simply threw a nice, short, sharp counter-right hand. And you saw the effect it had on Nasim-Hammit. It hurt him, that did. And he wobbled over to the ropes. He's basically having it all his own, way Barera and this is there I say it almost an easy night's work for him and we're just going to spool back to what you were talking about there Cole and everybody watching we're going to

go back to the point of one minute and 15 seconds to go in this round on the clock and just as you were saying there Carl this is Hamid here and we're going to stop it with a minute and 15 seconds to go so everybody watching can join in with us and you can see as you were saying there Carl there was almost a desperation to land that big looping overhand left he's got it here Cox ready to throw. But Berera is waiting for it. You can see here now, Hamid is using that right hand almost as the range finder with that left hand cocked, ready to come over onto the chin of Berrera. But Berera has been looking for this since the opening round. He knows it's coming here. So he just dances away. If we can move the film on now,

we'll see Berrera just slick to the outside. There he does and pops in the right hand over the top. And Hamid falls onto the ropes. And when you see that at full speed, you realize just how special move that was from Berera. You know, we saw it in slow motion, Carl, but to do that at full speed is it takes a really special boxer. Well, it does and it's almost a subconscious

reflex. You don't think about it. When you say, oh, how do you do that? You don't wait for the right hand to be thrown before you slip and then throw the right hand. You sense it coming. So when Massim was backing him up with that Southport jab and backing up, Berraero would have seen that Naz is just about to

throw that left cross and try and catch me. He slipped as the punch was thrown. So this is why you can't teach this kind of stuff later on in Korea. It's something you've done from when you're a kid. And I'm sure Barrera was having fights when he was three years old. And he just did a subconscious reflex there where he slipped to the inside of the right hand, left cross, made it missed. And just a reflex action, countered Naz with that right hand. And that was boxing at his purest and its best.

And that's what you got from Marco Antonio Barrera. And when you've got someone who does everything wrong like Nazim does, it's easy to criticise him when his arms are down and he's getting caught on the chin and say that he's doing everything wrong. But he had a fantastic career, and he made a career out of knocking everybody out with that unorthodox, dangerous, defensive-less style. But he got found out, didn't he?

He got found out against Barrera. What Barera is able to do, Mike, is throughout the fight, he's got better and better as the rounds have gone. And even if he's not dominating the rounds, He wins the first couple comfortably, and he's still winning rounds. What he's doing is he's starting to read the fight. He's starting to understand the man in front of you, because you can prepare.

You can watch as many films as you like, and you can say, you know what, when he misses with the left cross, I'm going to counter him on the right cross. You can plan for that, but it takes a couple of rounds to put it into play. But what he was doing in that round there, and Carl's absolutely right, Naz got found out he got exposed. Well, let's put it this way.

The Nasim in the ring on the 7th of April in 2001 at the MGM, in front of 12,500 people, that Nassim got found out. That Nassim got found out. Is that the same Nassim who chased Berrera for five and a half years? My argument has been since then, and it is still to this day. No, it's not, because the other Nassim was a different beast. We're not seeing the best Nassim here. Now, I might say that as a NAS fan.

But look how easy Barera's played, but he's playing with him. We're going to move on now to round number 10 for the benefit of those of you who are watching along as well. as well as listening. And at this stage, going into this 10th round, and we're going to follow it through now right to the end, taking in rounds 10, 11 and 12. And at this stage, Marco Antonio Barreira is leading by five rounds, three rounds and three rounds on the respective judges' scorecards. So quite simply, NAS needs to win all three of these remaining rounds just to get a draw. And I thought it was interesting watching the last minute of that eighth round that we did

after that brilliant counter shot from Barrera. Barrera lands another brilliant right hand here with 45 seconds gone in round number 10. But in that last minute of the eighth round, when Hammett had been hit so hard and fallen onto the ropes, he virtually threw nothing. He was so apprehensive in the final minute of that round. And the way he stumbled into the ropes

is something that he was warned about by Manny Stewart in his corner earlier in the fight. He was being told that he was keeping his chin so hard. high in the air that he was looking as though he was off balance and the punches were resonating more than they might have done against another opponent. And so, Stuart was warning Hamid about this, but it's the style that Hammett has taken through his career to this stage. And we didn't know at this stage, but this would be the penultimate fight in the career of Hammett. And he's still trying to find some kind of timing at this stage. But this is

one of his better rounds, even though he's just taken another left hook from Berrera, as we moving to the second half of this round, Carl. Yeah, well, he started to land a couple of his shots. He saw there he sort of makes up the range. And then he, if he misses with the left hand, he'd follow up with the right hand and get through on Barrera. But the fact that he's landing and seeing no effects will be further demoralizing him as he goes through the round, because he's still being peppered by that

jab out of range and getting hit with right hands like that, just systematically from Barrera. Barrera must be thinking to himself, this is just too easy. easy. I'm just able to time Naz as he comes in wildly. He opens up when he punches. I could just tuck behind a nice tight guard and then just throw him a counterpunches and Naz

is there to be hit because he pulls away of his chin in the air. I mean, don't get me wrong, it sounds a lot easier than what it is to execute, but Barrera knows how to fight. He knows what he's doing and he just stuck to the basics and he didn't even have to work hard. You see Barrera against Eric Morales on a couple of occasions

and the work rate was phenomenal. So if you look at the volume of punches thrown by Barrera in this fight against Nasim Hamid were watching against some of his previous fights and compare the work volume, this was like not even, he's almost like Barrera didn't get out of second gear

and I don't want to, I don't want that to sound critical for now because he had to concentrate and he had to do his job Barrera, but he's having a go here he's fancying the job, he's backing Naz up now and he's thinking, you know what, you can't hurt me you've landed, I'm not in any trouble and there's another round in the bank.

This is, this was This is worse than I originally thought it was for Nassim Hamid. This is terrible. That's a good point you make there, Carl. And I'm with him on that, Mike. Watching it back, it was worse than I remember it being. It really was worse than I remember it being. And that was why I think Nassim Hamid took so much stick.

And there were those who were ready to pile on and say that this was, you know, the first truly world-class opponent at his peak that he took on. and this was the result. And what you were saying, Carl, there, about Marco Antonio Berrera not coming out of second gear, maybe as we watch him in the corner now, in between rounds 10 and 11, it might well be that had he come out of second gear,

that would have given Hamid more of a chance. He was so calculated in what he was doing. I think that was what really impressed me, him showing that he could adapt to the style of the opponent in the ring. No, you're dead right. Sometimes not coming out second gear in terms of work volume is better because the more punches you throw, the more opening you give your opponent to counter. And Nassim Hammond was a brilliant counterpuncher.

But Barrera does step on the gas and start to crank it up in these last few rounds and just start to work more. Because he's starting to fancy it now. He's starting to think into himself, you know what, I've won most of the rounds. I'm in control. I've not been hurt. And now I fancy it because guess what? I'm a rough, tough Mexican with massive pride. And I'm going to try and get the job done.

And it just got worse and worse for now. Although he was starting to close the gap and get a few punches landed, there was having no effect at all. I can remember sitting in the crowd watching this thinking, he needs a knockout, but the way in which he's going about it is not going to get the knockout. You can't knock somebody out doing what he's doing. I mean, look at him.

He's up close to here, dodging and slipping and sliding with his chin in the air. It's almost getting ragged old around. He looks like he's being manhandled and out strength in every department. And that's fascinating from a man who's boxing at featherweight for the first time. And even though there wasn't a recognized title at stake, this was a monster occasion as befitting the purses that the two men earned, as I said earlier, Hamad, the equivalent today of something around $9 million. But Barrera here is having success with straight shots, with a jab in particular. That was such an important punch for him throughout the fight as we come to

the halfway stage now of round 11. And word went around that Hamid had been given that previous round, the 10th round on all three judges' score cards. And this is the response of a champion from Berrera. There was just a chance that momentum might take Hamid through the 11th and 12th. And if he won those last two rounds, then he would have scraped a draw

on two of the judges, scorecards and therefore in the fight overall. So Barrera has really responded and bounces off the ropes here with barely a minute to go in round 11 and still in control. And at his first fight up at featherweight is proving every bit of

strong as somebody who's regarded as one of the strongest and heaviest punching featherweights of all time. And again, Berera just leaning in with a jab and sees everything that that Hamid is doing. And it was so impressive, Steve, the way he read what Hamid was doing right the way through the fight and just kept his own, kept his own mind and fought his own fight all the way through. And here he's landing successive right hands and Hamid is smiling. But by now, it's almost a smile of resignation with half a minute to go in round 11. Well, there's no attempt by Hammett to do anything to get out of the position that he's being forced into. So he's having to, he's constantly retreating to his left. He's moving on to

Barera's right hand. Barrears cracking him with the right hand and he's moving in his front and obviously the second shot after the right hand is the left hook. Hamid's not once move round to Hammond's right, i.e. and trying to get outside that left hand of Barreras. From the first round, we talked about it after we discussed the first round. round and all the way through the fight, Hammond has just refused to adapt. He's refused to put into play stuff and, and I'm looking at Barera. Guerrera's doing nothing that he hasn't done before. We know he's a great tactician. We know he's incredibly strong. We know he's incredibly accurate. Where's the counter to any of that? There is no counter. And it's not just after the 11th round. There was no

counter in the first minute of the first round. We're watching a great Mexican box superbly and making a guy, and Carl talked about it in the buildup. He's making Nassim Hammid look at times like an amateur. What Nas was doing there was he was putting himself in a position so he could land a big counter punch. And he touched it there, Steve. You didn't nail on the head.

Where was the counter? Where was the reaction? So Naz is stood in front of him with his arms down and we know he can punch hard with his arms down. So don't be deterred by that. He's waiting to land a big heavy shot. He's putting himself in a position. He's putting his chin at risk. He's opening up Pereira saying, come on, throw some shots so I can hit you with a big counter. But the big counter's not there. The punches aren't there. Just not letting it go. And I think it's almost like he's got the yips because he's thinking if I do throw, I'm going to get caught because I'm just getting outclassed in every department.

He's getting pushed around and hit with shots himself while he's waiting too long. He's waiting for something to happen, there's something to change and an opening to appear. And while he's doing that, he's getting hit with four, five, six shots. He's getting his head snapped back. And I'm surprised it was as close as it was on the scorecards, to be honest. Yeah, going into this round, the judges had Marco Antonio Berreira, one of them leading by five rounds, but the others leading by only three rounds at this stage. Surprising to report also that at halfway one of the judges had it level at three apiece.

And here with two minutes and ten seconds or so to go in the final round, round. 12, Hamid has just been made to miss with a wild looping right hand that he telegraphed and Barrera saw it easily and just bent his knees and ducked underneath. So reading Hamid all the way through. He's had an absolutely terrible opening minute, Nassimma, the last round. He's been counter-punched and punched. His heads have been flopping around all over the place. He's been ragged old.

In the first minute of the final round where he needs to land a big shot, it's gone terrible for him. And all he can be thinking now is, I've got to land a big knockout shot. I've got to. I don't think Naz is worried about getting knocked. himself because he's been taking so many shots and he's still stood there. So all he needs to do now is try and land a big monster

punch and you can see him loaded up there and try him. The more he tries, the more he gets counterpunched by the brilliantly the brilliantly, basically brilliant Berera. It's not doing anything special. But what he is doing that special is the way he's reading so much that Hamid is doing

and, you know, the phrase that Carl used there, that it looks as though he's got the yips, that reminded me of and he's just wandering in there. He throws those are that big desperate lunging left hand. And then he's driven into the corner, as Carl said earlier on, with a minute to go in round 12, forced back to the corner post.

And referee Joe Cortez calls a time out here and deducts one point from Marco Antonio Barrera for charging and pushing Hamid into that corner post on the far side of the ring as we're looking on now. So making no difference. And here's Hamid again, still looking to touch gloves at this stage. So far into the contest.

flick of a jab again from Marco Antonio Barreira. Right hand lands again time and time again he landed with that simple, straightforward copybook right hand throughout the contest. We've got half a minute to go in the final round. And Carl was talking about Hamid looking as though he's got the yips. And that reminded me of watching Sal Canelo Alvarez against Floyd Mayweather in the later rounds. He seemed so reluctant to throw punches for fear of being made to miss. And again, it's happening here as Barrera works away.

and long range, medium range at close range wherever they fight, Pereira is the better of them. Absolutely. I almost feel so hard for Nas there, but you have to just give you props to Barrera. You do.

One day, Carl and Mick, we're going to get the truth. One day, Nas will tell us the truth. He will tell us. And I'm convinced the truth is somewhere between I just wanted to get out of that ring.

I didn't want to be there. I'm convinced we're going to hear something like that. And that's how it looked from round one right through to the final bow. Bing. It was having a...

ago he was trying, but he wasn't working hard if he wasn't thrown enough punches. He never really got badly hurt, Nas, because he never went over. Okay, his legs were a bit unshaky at times, but there was no excuse to not try and stand as a fighter, as a world champion, as somebody who's come over to America

in a massive fight of this magnitude and try and leave it all in the ring. And it never looked like he could do that, but you've got to just say that's because Barrera was so brilliant. And the judges' scorecards were to follow, and in terms of rounds

and if we just for the moment take away the point that was deducted from Barrera in that final round in terms of rounds because he won that final round there's no question about that he won by eight rounds to four on two judges score cards and by nine rounds to three on another of

the judges score cards and I know you said Steve that this is the one fight that Barera that Hamid is judged by when people reflect on his career and we're still watching here a replay of some of the action of the 12th and final round and how Hamid was lunging in with,

in particular, the left hook and him. Berrero just gets hold of him and forces him back to the corner post. Sorry to cut you up there, mate, but I didn't realize he actually turned him and he could have just left him there, but then he decides to get an arm lock and a headlock in and go to the corner arm and almost slam his head against the corner post. Now, it's not going to hurt that much

because it's a big corner soft cushion, but still it was the intention behind that, that ram against the corner as if to say, I've got you now, you're mine and have some of that. I didn't realize Barry Hearn was there either. Oh, boy. Look at that. Look at poor Naz's face there when people are trying to talk to him.

Carl, he doesn't want to be in that ring, mate. He hasn't wanted to be in that ring since he came out, since he came down and was covered in beer. He hasn't wanted to be there. Exactly. I like to think, as an As a Nassim Hamid fan, he had a terrible night, and it was just, it wasn't mentally up for it,

and he just didn't fancy it at all for whatever reason. and that was a below-par performance from us. I mean, it can do better than that. He can be quicker, it can be more evasive and elusive, and his counterpunches can be more sharp. I mean, when he fought Kevin Kelly, he was on his back foot, he got put down in that fight against Kevin Kelly, and then he managed to turn it around and still land his shots

and keep composure. In this fight against Pereira, he never got anything going. He never looked comfortable. He never looked like he enjoyed or he wanted to be in there at any stage of the fight, right through from round one to round 12. he just totally got outclassed. And I don't like to use outclassed because people said

I've been outclassed in my career, but that did look like an outclassing job. And there was one agency report afterwards, Steve, that said in his first fight against what many experts called a worthy opponent, Hamid failed miserably and became exposed as possibly one of boxing's most overrated performers. Now, you know that is a commonly held view. And we've spoken a lot tonight about the failings of Nassim Hamid. But should we be giving credit here to Barrera? Was it a fact that everything that Hamid had done earlier in his career against lesser opponents had worked?

And he couldn't adapt after those first couple of rounds when it was very clear that what he was doing wasn't working. He couldn't adapt. He was in the ring against a man who did adapt. If you look at the Barrera from a year earlier against Eric Morales in the first of their three fights, okay, he lost the fight, but he was a very different fighter, very aggressive, charging forward on the front foot the whole time. And at the, I'm not sure if it was the post-fight press conference or one of the post-fight interviews that Nas gave, he said, I kept waiting for him to charge at me. And when that didn't happen, when Barrera, if not stayed on the back foot, certainly held his ground in the center of the,

the ring with shuffling steps rather than charging forward. He couldn't deal with that different prospect. What he had trained for was a Barrera that had charged at him. It reminded me of how we were talking to Carl Frampton after his rematch against Leo Santa Cruz when Carl Frampton and the McGuiggins team were talking about how they didn't realize that Leo Santa Cruz was so smart on the back foot and could box. And, you know, Hamid just couldn't adapt there in the way that Barrera could. Yeah, well, I think you might be over-egging it when you say during training,

because I'm disputing the fact there was any serious training or tactical chat. I was disappointed with the corner, not now, not 19 years later, I was disappointed with the corner in the hours after that fight. Suarez and Manny Stewart need to put their hands up. Nassin himself was in dreadful, dreadful condition. And Berera was brilliant all night. We knew Berera would be great. Berera is a terrific, and we know he's a great fighter.

He's a brilliant fighter. and Barrera had one advantage going into this fight. He took this fight when he wanted it. He took this fight when he was ready to gain the four pounds. For five years, he'd been refusing Naz's offers. He'd been refusing millions on the table, and he'd been insisting that Nas had to drop the four pound and go down to Superbantam,

which Naz maybe could have done in 97, 98. He had no chance of doing in 2001. And somewhere between about 1995, when they both won their world titles with a very young age, separated by four pounds, somewhere between Nen and that ring, that ring walk, that ridiculous entrance to the ring somewhere there, Nassim Hamid lost his way. That's not me being an after-timer. That's not me making excuses. I talked about this before the fight. I went into Sky on about the Monday or the Tuesday of the fight and did their ringside on the first thing, did their ringside

program from here. I was in the studio, I think with Ricky Hatton, and I think with Dean Powell. and I remember saying that we know the preparation is bad, his head's not in the right place, and he's just not there. He wasn't there. So it's not me being an after time. I'd said it before the fight. But Mike, you're absolutely right.

Let's not take anything away from Barrera. But what did you see in that fight that was the Nassim Hamid, who beat world champion Vasquez, who beat world champion Tom Johnson to take away their two titles, that beat Wayne McCulloch out of sight, that beat Paul Ingle,

who'd been a good fight, Trust me, for every one of the absolute stinkers, the Saeed Laowals on Nazis record, there's also some good fighters on that record. Plenty of revisionist history happened in the minutes, hours, months, days, in years since that Nassim Hamid defeat. And sometimes what gets lost

are the previous victories and what he did for British boxing. Totally outclassed Steve Robinson as well on his buildup coming through. And, you know, the Augie Sanchez fight when the Vegas kid, I know he's not a massive name, but he knocked him out terribly. It was an exciting fight.

His whole career cannot be defined by that one poor performance against Mark and Tony Braira. I'm not feeding into the narrative. But I'm a massive fan, and people might say, well, you've admitted you're a massive fan, so you're being biased. But I'm not feeding the narrative or believe in that narrative that Nassim Hamid hasn't fought anybody of world level on the build-up to fight in Barrera and then puts in a performance like that because Barrera was world-class. because Nassim Hamid showed flashes,

well, more than flashes, it showed dominance, pure dominance in power, ability, timing, speed, all orthodox accuracy throughout his whole career. So then putting a performance like against Barrera, that doesn't work for me. The Nassim Hamid that fought, I don't know, Kevin Kelly, that got caught and put down and gone up to win and land big shot, and the one that totally had a humdinger with Tom Boon Boon-Boon Johnson,

if that Mazz was in the ring that night, With that mindset against Barreira, it would have been a different fight. I'm not saying it would have been a different result, but it wouldn't have been as poor as it was for Nasim Hamid, I'm sure. So do you think the best of Hamid, any one of those past nights that you mentioned, would have beaten Berrera on that night? I can't say it would have beaten him because Berrera did what he did and got the win. So all I can say is that was not Nasim Hamid at his best.

He did not put in 100% Nasim Hamid performance. There was nothing there what shows that. So the people who are Barrera fans will say that's because Barrera shut him out and stopped him from being his best, but you can't make somebody look that poor that's been previously so good. I mean, I think Steve Bunce will agree with me.

Nassi Immad was fantastic. Really, really, really fast, a monster puncher and his boxing ability as well. His movement and his speed and counterpunch, and everything he did was accurate. He used to land accurate blows with power. There was nothing in that fight against Barrera that showed me that he was even 50% of the Naski Mohammed

that had grown to love and become a massive fan of over the years. That was a really, really poor performance. You know what, Mike? When people go through the list and they just casually say, you know, he hadn't fought anybody of world class. Well, first for a start, Tom Johnson was the defending champion,

knocked out in London. Wilfriendo Vasquez was the defending champion, but he had to vacate his title because the WBA were going to strip him. Knocked out, destroyed. Voni Bungu, he moved up, Sean. Nas absolutely destroyed him. Caesar Soto, former world champion, Paul Ingle, none of these guys were in there dotage.

None of these guys came out of retirement and were giving away half a stone or were on bad runs when Nassim beat them. Some of those guys went on to do things. And I'm going to take it all the way back to what Carl seemed to have said about an hour ago. When he was talking about the Vincenzo Belcastro fight, Vincenzo Belcastro, was voted, Ring Magazine's European fighter of the year. Okay, he came over here and Nas dropped him for the first time in his career. He won all 12 rounds and then dropped him again in the last round. And then wins like that, they formed this backdrop.

Again, Steve Robinson, 21,000 people down outdoors in Cardiff. Steve Robinson had destroyed Hoccoe, Paul Hodkinson. He destroyed Duke McKenzie. Paul, Steve Robinson was a good fighter. And Nas destroyed him, ruined him. The whole back, the whole catalogue, as I said at the top, I've never known a guy's career be defined by one night. so joyously celebrated, joyously celebrated by so many people, and still celebrated.

I wrote about this, I wrote about this earlier this year in boxing news this fight, and you'd be amazed how many people were upset with it, because it seemed like it was a Nassim Hammond defense. Well, if that's what it seemed like, I'm not going to apologize, because it probably was. I'm just, I've been, I've been desperately trying for 19 years to correct the wrongs of that particular night, and I'm glad I found, I'm glad I found an ally in Frot. I might sack you off, Costello, and get Frotting on a regular. My sister back me up. That's what's so cruel about boxing at times.

That's what's so cruel. You can be defined by one performance. And, you know, it's ridiculous because all the armchair fans and all the haters that didn't particularly like Nassim Hamid's style or any particular fighter over the past, they'll find one loss and they'll focus on that and then they'll try and define his whole career on that.

But you cannot forget, like you pointed out, Steve, how fantastic a career, what fantastic a career that Prince Nassim Hamid actually had. and the scalps that he took on the way up through his whole career, up to the point where it got the silk pajamas, it was living the life, it changed his trainer, his ring entrance was poor, you go and watch the documentary following on from that Barrera fight,

and then you'll realize, actually, it wasn't, all right, he may have still lost at his best because Barrera was brilliant, it's brilliant. He lost to a brilliant fight that night and Nas did, but Nassim Hamid was in that ring, and as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't half the fighter, he didn't put a, in half the performance, what we've seen in the past,

and a 100% Nassim Hammid performance could have very easily seen a different result, and we'll never know. And on behalf of those armchair fans that you two are having a dig at, you know, I might accept the argument that Barreira might not have locked as good against all of those names that you've mentioned. He might not have been as dynamic. He might not have been as impressive and as highlight, really. impressive in getting rid of them. But if you look at Berrera generally, he belongs in that category

with Eric Morales, with Manny Pacquiao, with Juan Manuel Marquez. What I'm asking you is all of those names that you've mentioned do not belong in that category. Does Nassim Hamid belong in that upper elite category? I'm going to let Steve answer that one first, because when you break you down like that, and you pick on the opponents and put the opponents that Nassim Hammond is actually beaten and say which one of them opponents, which one of them was actually top three world level,

which one of them was El Torrebley and them top three, top four contenders, which one of the Tom Boon Boone Johnson and Augie Sanchez and Belcastro and Jose Badeo, who he performed against the Shepherd with a real showman-like performance, which one of them names actually stands out

as a real big elite level world-class win. And I'm struggling, Steve. I don't know if you can help me out as a Nasim Hamid fan. No, listen, the Paco obviously beat him. Morales beat him. So you're talking about not fighters that he dominated, but fighters that he went in and shared the ring with. My argument has always been

that the Nasim Hamid in training camp in Palm Springs had already run short of being a Nasim Hamid, he could have been. The Nasim Hamid. and it's that big, that big what might have been, which is one of the big debates in boxing. You know, my feeling is that had he worked exclusively, perhaps with Manny, with Oscar Suarez as a second coach,

or had he stayed with Brendan, I think we would have seen a different fighter. The Nasim Hamid from 96 and 97 was without any doubt on track to be and beat any of the names you've mentioned. Haddy fought Berrera, in 97 or 98, I'm convinced that he would have beaten him then. I'm convinced he would have beaten him then. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

So the way you put it, of course, Berera shook hands in the ring with better fighters than Nassim Hamid beat, but he didn't necessarily beat them. Just because he went in the ring and got smashed the bits by Pac-Yal, you know, that's famed by association. There's an awful lot of guys fought Muhammad Ali got smashed the bits. an awful lot of guys thought Mike Tyson got smashed a bit. So I just think that we'd already lost NAS by this stage, Mike. We'd already lost him before he went to training camp there.

We'd probably lost him a couple of years earlier. He was still winning. He was still getting through fights, but we'd probably lost the best NAS. I don't think we saw the best NAS, which is the ultimate fans comment. I appreciate that, but I make no bones about it. Because as an 11-year-old, I saw this kid win his first. schoolboy title in Derby. I saw him win just about every single thing after that,

whether it was schoolboy titles, whether it was European titles, whether it was WB's International, it was WBO or IBO. So my association and my attachment to Nassim Hamid isn't like the normal association and attachment. I saw Carl win an ABA title up in Liverpool. I'm close enough to Carl.

I saw all of his fights in 2001. I saw most of his important professional fights. Okay, but it's still not the same. attachment I've, I had to this kid, Nassim. So perhaps in future, if we do Nassim Hamid fights, I'll take an afternoon off if you don't, if you want an unbiased opinion, I'll hold my hands up. Well, judging by the responses down the years, the arguments about Nassim Hamid are not going to finish any time soon. Carl, you were there that night in Las Vegas in 2001, shortly before you came home to box and win a bronze medal at the World Amateur Championships in Belfast. How did your

night finish off? Following my older brother around casinos, he was drinking Long Island ice teas and smoking Moulbri lights and chucking the rest of his money away what he had left on roulette machines and he put me off

drinking and gambling for the rest of my life. Fortunately now, my brother Lee, he's now six years in sobriety. He's doing really, really well and he's actually fighting as well, unlicensed boxing, but he's fighting and he's unbeaten in 12-13 fights.

So he's turned a massive corner. But the rest of my stay in Vegas after the Nassian-M-Wand fight was a miserable one. We had upday Sunday. We flew Monday, and it was just miserable. I had no money left. I'd emptied the ATM machine

off a credit, not even off a debit card. It was a credit card. I maxed it out because I was also gambling and with the following Lee around, thinking I need to win. We just lost money on the NAS fight. I'm not talking big money, because I didn't have big money.

I was boxing for England and the funding was quite poor and I didn't have a job because I quit my job to take on the funding with the England squad that was available at the time and I just won the ABAs and I've just been picked to boxing the World Championship so I was then in training for that but the money that I had to my name took me out to Vegas to watch my hero, the legend, and I still call him a legend, Prince Nassim Hamid,

And that trip to Vegas, the whole trip from start to finish when I look back on it was probably one of the worst trips of my life. You can sit there and giggle. I've still got the betting slip. It was somewhere like $160. And I actually showed NAS when I met him in the betting slip when he lost the Barrera. And he was looking at me as if to say,

do you want a refund us? Honestly, I look back on that time with great sadness. and I don't think that fight should define Prince Nassim Hamid, but unfortunately I think it will with a lot of fans or not fans. A lot of boxing purists will just think, no, he was never good enough to dominate at world level. And that fight showed it, and it saddens me that does. But that's boxing, it's brutal, and we can be defined by one fight, as you know.

Well, it's been great to catch up, Carl. Thanks for joining us and for giving us that invaluable. insight into the life and career of Nasim Hamid. For the pleasure. Costello and Bunce's greatest fights. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million

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