5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - Gatti v Ward I with Paulie Malignaggi

Episode Date: June 11, 2020

Reliving the ten round classic between Arturo 'Thunder' Gatti and 'Irish' Micky Ward, in the company of former two weight world champion Paulie Malignaggi.Ward later became the subject of 2010 film 'The Fighter', and was played by Mark Wahlberg.

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With a round that Manny Stewart said should be called the round not of the fight, not of the year, but of the century. Gatti and Wald One. You know what's interesting about this fight, Mike, is that like lots of the fights that we do in this series, you look back on it and you forget parts of it. Now that's shameful. How can you forget parts of it? And you also forget where it came in their careers. Hand on heart.

I would have had money with you that this came before X-Fight or B after another fight. It doesn't. It sits where it does. And I'm quite staggered at the tricks my memories played on me in the 17 or so years, 18 years since it took place. I'm stunned. You know what? It happens every single time we sit down and go through the kids. fights. It's amazing. And we're going back to the 18th of May 2002 for the first of these fights between

Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward, two men known for the level of excitement that they bring to the ring. They would fight three times in a row within the space of 13 months. And as I say, Steve, we can talk now after the fight because it was such a spectacle. But beforehand, there was such a buzz about this contest. Two men here known for their brawling of the fight. And as a lot of abilities for their courage. They were known to get cut in fights. They were known to be in troubling fights and come bouncing back. And they were known to be heavy livers outside of the ring as well. You had Arturo Gassie, who was a world champion at Super Featherweight and was now up at light welterweight. He'd previously, just shortly beforehand, gone up to full

welterweight and been beaten by Oscar de la Jolla. But one of the key components here, Steve, he'd moved over to join Buddy McGirt, the former World Welterweight Champion. and take on him as his trainer. And it's just as well he did move over to start working with Buddy McGur. Because a couple of years earlier, the great Bud Schaulberg had been writing about R2 Ogatis two back-to-back defeats against Ivan Robinson. And he had said, I can't see how much more this kid's got left. He has bringing the levels of no defence, no defence, as Bud called it, to new levels.

and in certain aspects, not certain aspects, he was right all along. Without a doubt, Bud was right. If Gatti hadn't just tried to work on survival, work on not taking so many punches, then we might not have got the three fights we got, Mike, and we certainly wouldn't have got this one fight. And I was ringside for the fight against Oscar Delahoya, and it's a terrific fight. It's a great fight.

It's a gruesome fight. It's a brutal fight. It's the really the nasty one to watch. It's the one you have to watch through your fingers. I'm convinced of it. But in the first 30 seconds, he catches Delahoya with a really big shot. I think it's a massive left hook. And there was a ripper went through the MGM that night.

From there on, from there on, it was all about Delahoya. All about Delahoya at that point. But this fight, Mike, okay, you know the stats here, but if I'd have asked you beforehand, if I'd have said to you before you sat down and started watching this and researching this, if I'd have said to you, How many fights had they lost combined? Is it A7, B10, or is it 16?

Now, you wouldn't have given me answer C, mate, would you? That's the truth. Combined defeats, 16 fights. It's staggering. Like a throwback. And as you say, with Arturo Gatti, Steve, because he was beaten by Oscar Delahoeia, was now coming back down in weight again.

And it was just assumed, now that he was fighting at just around about the light, well-to-weight division. This was made at 142 pounds, 10 stone 2 pounds but the feeling was that Arturo Gatti was on the way down and that this would be a decent payday for him on his way out of the

sport on his way out of the sport and it was a it was a payday that would actually in many ways I can remember it quite clearly this will look good he'll look good beating Mickey Wall because Mickey Ward you know he's got he's got a check at history we're not quite sure where he is he's lost two of his last six but forget that the wins were quite simple

he's the man you can look good against. And in many ways, he might have had a catapult once he'd beaten Mickey Wall to another big payday and another good night and another exit. But at the same time, Mike, and I was amazed to find how long before this, people were putting these two together in fantasy fights. And I've found stuff written at least two years, three years before this, suggesting, I'll tell it'll be a great fight. What about Mickey Ward against Gatti?

When they were separated back then by about eight or nine pounds, people have been throwing these two together. And that, and I think that's when you sit down, if you're going to watch this with us, you're going to watch the rounds with us. You have to take that piece of knowledge with you. Forget the defeats they had in their records, the shattering defeats.

Forget the 16 losses. And just try and imagine, it's kind of hard for someone in 2020, Try and imagine that these two guys, these two guys of all those defeats, this was a fight that people were really, really looking forward to. And you've got to imagine that. And you've got to try and get, if you get your head into that position, the fight's even better. And we talk now, Steve, and complain about the desire for an unbeaten record. And that was still prevalent, even though we're going back almost two decades here.

So this was a kind of throwback occasion with two men who had lost. many times. And like you, one of the factors that I kind of was surprised by in looking back over this fight, Steve, was how much of a clamour for this fight there was among the boxing diehards. Because certainly over in the UK, I didn't get that flavour at the time as much as I was looking forward to this fight. And we've concentrated a bit on the record of Gatti, but Mickey Ward as well, his story was told, minus the trilogy against Arturo Gatti in the 2011 film the fighter, which was one of the better boxing films of the last couple of decades. I thought the non-boxing scenes and it were sensational.

I thought they were brilliant with his mad, crazy brother, who, of course, we're going to see in his corner here. But the film let itself down, and we've got to do a little bit of film stuff here. We can't just praise these two out of sight. You know, when the film let itself down, when he comes to Britain, okay, to fight Chey Neary. Okay, so Shea Neri, they make Shea Neri, who's the most scouss, scouse who have scousers. They make Shane Erie sound like Prince Charles. That's mistake number one.

That's not uncommon, Mike, because people have said to me, you sound just like Prince Charles when I'm in Las Vegas or somewhere. But the real mistake is he's training in his hotel room, okay, and a woman knocks on, there's a knock on the door, the door opens, and it's a charl lady straight out of Winston Churchill's war bunker with a pot of tea. so they stopped their training to have a pot of tea, for God's sake. The people that make that, they're smart people. Mark Wahlberg's a smart international singer. He's travelled the world. Did he miss England? Did he miss Great Britain on his trips?

Who possibly came up with OKing? You sound like Prince, make him sound like Prince Charles and get a charwoman to deliver tea. That aside, I love the movie. Steve, get real. Dramatic licence. Dramatic licence, son. That's fantasy, Mike.

That's science fiction, my friend. Well, that was in 2000. We're moving forward a couple of years to the first of three fights and a trilogy that would be one of the most memorable of all time. Now, I know that many of you like to watch along as you listen. So we're going to be covering, of the 10 rounds, six of them, as we have done in the series so far. And we're going to cover rounds one, four, five, and then the last three.

eight, nine and ten. This, of course, was a ten rounder. So one, four, five, eight, nine, and ten. And we'll give you time to move on, to spool along and to catch up with us as we go along. But we're joined also as well today. I'm delighted to say by the two-weight world champion, Pauli Malanagi. Pauli, it's great to have you with us. Yes, I'm good. How are you? Very well, sir. Thanks for joining us. No problem. Now, Paulie, at this stage, May 2002, you're half a dozen. or so fights into your professional career. How big a deal was this fight? Ward Gatti won for a young pro like yourself. For me personally, it was amazing because I was a big Arturo Gadi fan growing up with his family being Italian immigrants coming to North America

and my family being Italian immigrants coming to North America. He was actually the guy I looked up to the most, you know. I felt like he was, you know, we were similar in that background. had a story and whatnot. You know, his family emigrated to Montreal and my family emigrated to New York. But aside from that, I mean, it was the lot of similarity

to the same culture and whatnot. So I always looked at him like he was somebody that I wanted to emulate and tried to be, tried to imitate. So I was always a big fan of a Toronto Gotti, even before this fight. So when this fight was made, obviously I knew Mickey Ward's reputation.

I knew I had seen Mickey Ward fighting in several different fights. I knew about the big body shot he was known for. but I knew he'd also underachieved. And most of all, I knew styles make fights. So I knew this was a risky fight for Arturo because if you get into a war with Mickey Ward, you're giving him what he wants.

And it's hard for Arturo to stay out of war with anybody. So once the Ward fight was signed, I thought to myself it's going to be a very, very good fight. And we were saying earlier, Paulie, this was a fight between two men who'd lost 16 times between them, and yet there was this buzz about what they brought. wrought to ringside virtually every time they climb the steps. Yeah, because even whether they won or whether they lost, Arturo and Mickey always

weren't a good fight. You know, it was rare that Arturo and Mickey would be in a bad fight. I remember Mickey looking to tag Judah, to Zab, and I remember Zab, in order to beat him played a very safe. It was just so much more talented. But Mickey was looking for the war the whole time, you know? And when you, you kind of realize that, yes, they're both talented in their own way, but you kind of realize that their talent was not going to be enough to avoid the shootout type war that it was going to break out into, you know. And if you really watch the fight, you can kind of see Arturo, in the beginning, kind of tries to come out boxing on his toes, you know,

but Mickey right away puts him on the back foot. And Arturo is boxing pretty well, but you can only get that feeling that it's only a matter of time before Mickey gets to him because he's too much on his toes. There's too much pressure on him. And, you know, Arturo can't, couldn't resist the war himself. And you were saying earlier, Pauli, about your affection for Arturo Gatti because of his background being similar to yours. And there was the Irish-American contingent in the crowd as well,

making for a great atmosphere, almost between two boxing cultures. Absolutely, absolutely. And it was in a great place. I believe the first fight was in Mohegan's Sun, where you kind of, and Arturo Gardi used to always fight in Atlantic City, where a lot of the Italians from New York used to go to,

but putting the fight in Mohegan's son, it kind of gives you a middle-of-the-street type of fight where Mickey's fans in Boston, but the Irish descent would have an easier time getting to the Mohican Sun, because it was in Connecticut, the Hague and Sun Casino. And Arturo's fans could also come from New York and New Jersey as well. And also as well as Boston, because Boston to this day does have a pretty good Italian population. So I think ethnic rivalries are the best in boxing.

I think when people get behind their own type of guys, you know, it's a real blood, it's like a feeling of that blood relation to the fighter and you really get behind them even more. So I think that this kind of fight had that too, and it's sort of in the old throwback kind of a way with the Italian and Irish fighters in the United States, a la Zelle Gratiano and things like that. So I think going into it, you kind of felt that too. And again, I mean, it did not disappoint. Well, let's go back in time then to the 18th of May 2002, too, as Paulie said, the Mohegan Sun Casino in Connecticut. And this contest that was so eagerly awaited, what would turn out to be the first of three between Arturo Gat.

Gatti and Mickey Ward. And as you said, Pauli, Arturo Gatti, we can see it here, up on his toes, skipping around. And I guess some of this, Pauli, was the influence of Buddy McGirt, who was in his corner for only the second time. Yeah, I can remember Arturo looking terrific in knocking out Toronto Millette a few months before this. And he boxed very, very well. And I thought, wow, this is a terrific influence of Buddy is having on Arturo. But you can just tell the way this fight started. I remember Arturo thinking I'm being impressed with the way I'm.

sort of started the fight, but thinking there is just a lot of pressure on him. I don't think he can continue to back up like this without trying to stop Mickey in his tracks. And I think being on his toes a little bit too much, eventually he got sick of it. And, you know, Mickey put too much stress on him mentally. And finally, he succumbed to the pressure and wanted to eventually go out and go to war. But right now, you can see it in the fight early on, he's trying to keep Mickey off balance with some good boxing ability. And we're going to come to, Steve, I'm just going to bud in because we're going to come to us. significant moment here because very shortly

Arturo Gatti opens up with a left hook which in turn opens a cut that left hook there opens a cut just above the right eye of Mickey Ward and we're only a minute and 15 seconds into the fight Steve and when you watch that when you watch that back because obviously you can see the cut then I don't know how you watched it might what sort of version you watch but you see the cut you're not quite sure how bad the cut is but then you start to see more and more of the cut and you realize that's the the type of cut, the kind of wound

that could end an awful lot of fights. And just to pick up on what Pauli saying about the movement, this is the easy way to beat Mickey Ward. You stay on your feet and you pop him with jabs and you occasionally drop a right hand. Anyone could come up with that plan. I could have devised that plan,

but you can't keep that up. So it was inevitable at some point it's going to change. And you just saw that cut there, Pauli. That's a nasty cut to have after less than a minute in a 15 seconds. It's a nasty, nasty cup.

The good thing about these two guys is they were so used to being cut and being hit that for Mickey, it was almost like second nature himself. So he doesn't even hesitate one bit to continue to pressure Arturo. He's trying to break Arturo's will mentally. And obviously that's not going to happen. But what you will eventually break Arturo is in the fact that he gets tired of boxing. And if you hadn't followed the career of Mickey Ward, Paulie, at this stage, you're thinking he's on-rook.

to being outclassed here because Gatti's just picking him off. Yeah, and if you had followed the career of Mickey Ward, you'd think that. But also if you hadn't followed the career of Arturo Gadi, you might think that too, but you just knew. I could just tell, as a boxer, I can just tell there's too much pressure on Arturo. He doesn't know how to, he's not dealing with it very well. He's dealing with it as you can see physically, but you can tell mentally he's not dealing with it because he's moving too much. And I call this being in flight. So what he's attempting to do is he's attempting to do his best to box,

but he's feeling so much pressure that he's moving way too much. And though he is landing, you cannot move like that for 12 rounds. He's just going to wear you out. So eventually, if he doesn't figure out a way to box from a more stationary position and box intelligently, he's going to wind up in a war. And as I was watching that, I figured that. And as we're watching the break in between rounds now here, Pauli, we're seeing Al Gavin getting to work on that right eye of Mickey Ward.

And that was such an important piece of work, master of all corner work by Al Gavin here. and a big influence on the outcome of the fight, ultimately. Absolutely. The late Al Gavin was a terrific, terrific one of men and Cupman. I mean, he was the main, mainly he was a cut man, but also a terrific corner man. Worked with many, many good fighters through the years,

also like Lennox Lewis, I believe, and guys like Eric Harding and whatnot, you know? So it was, he was terrific. That is a good point to Paul he makes there, Mike, about the fact that both of these guys are used to being hurt, they used to being staggered, but more than that, they're used to be in cut. So basically all of the normal form guides, all of the normal things that even good fighters, you know, need to really dig deep and struggle back from.

These guys expect it. It's almost like the first few rounds are just a warm up. They maybe could have conducted them in private and then we could start a couple of rounds in because that's when it really starts. And now we're going to move on from round one to round number four. Gatti kept it going on his toes pretty much in round two. there were signs that Ward was getting into the fight in the last minute of the third round, which also featured the first of many great toe-to-to-to exchanges. And we move now into round number four, Paulie.

And for Mickey Ward, the quest is still to close down that gap between them. Yeah, it is. And at the end of round three, if I remember correctly, he had gotten there. He had gotten finally closed the gap a little bit and a little bit more. And he started to land some shots. and you could kind of see the same coming out of the hourglass here, Arturie. Again, he's in flight, is what I call in flight. He's trying to box.

He knows what he has to do, but he's imploring him to boxing. But in reality, he's starting to really feel like, I want this guy off me. Arturo didn't like to be challenged man-to-man himself, you know? So he's like, this guy won't stop coming at me. Because you see, when he's not on his toes and boxing from here, Mickey has to respect that. Mickey has to stop pressuring it. Once Arturo will be bouncing around and boxing too much, you know,

it gave Mickey the confidence to keep trying to keep. chasing him, they keep chasing him and gave him that, sort of that mental edge. But what he's having to do with Buddy McGeigh in a corner is pulling back even, even after one round he's pulling him back, Paulie. Because he knows the fighter he's in charge of. A man that does what just want to fight. Yeah, exactly. And a guy, man, not only just wants to fight, but when he takes a big shot and here he's

starting to take some shots, his resistance, his, his answer to something like this is to respond back with total fire himself. and that's his instinct. And it was always hard for Buddy to break Arturo out of this mentality. Terrific exchange here with a minute and 20 seconds to go in round number four. And Gatti working away to the body, both of them punching very hard to the body. And that was a feature throughout the contest, Paul. You know, a lot of courses made of the spectacle of head punching,

but these two were really solid punches to the body. They were, they were. And they always were. It wasn't just this fight. Arturo and Mickey used to go to the body a lot. I remember Arturo Gotti getting a knockout with a body shot on a 11th. with Doreen a few years after this, second round body shot, second round knockout of Leonard Doreen,

who had been a former world champion himself. And as we're talking about body shots again, we're coming up to a really significant moment in the entire fight here. I spoke earlier about the cut above the right eye of Mickey Ward, with just over 40 seconds to go in round four. You can see even from a distance that Al Gavin's work in the corner has been nothing short of superb because he's managed to stem the flow of blood.

But very soon here now, going to see a body punch landing just after just after Mickey Ward turns Southport a shot lands to the body from Arturo Gatti Pauli. They call the law. They call the law. But Gatti goes straight over to remonstrate with Capitino, the referee saying that's good, that's good. He decides it's low. The referee takes a point there Mike and this is chaotic here,

chaotic. Yeah, we come to the last few seconds of the round and the only one who wasn't complaining was was Mickey Ward and I'm not sure at that stage he's completely aware that that point has been deducted in a sporting tap of the gloves at the end of that round and still Gatty is arguing his case here at the end

of that round but again just those signs Paulie and you said right at the beginning that Ward is beginning to warm to the task and getting closer and closer despite that shot at the end of that round yes exactly signs to warmth the task and also from a mental

standpoint, he realized he's getting to Arturo. He sees the reactions he wants from Arturo. Arturo is more and more and more and more and more and more and more more staying stationary and maybe they're changing a bit more. So Mickey knows he's getting what he wants out of Arturo and once he gets what he wants out of him, he'll be able to punish him as well. So I think Mittler is gaining confidence and that's probably why he didn't complain too much about the low blow body shot.

Mind you that the, those kind of low blows. Yeah, those kind of shots. Arturo was always doing those kind of shots. I remember the little with the Wilson Rodriguez fight, rest and peace and way. Kelly, who was a great referee himself, but he'd let Arturo get away with so many low blows when Arturo was wailing way to the body in the Wilson Rodriguez fight, too.

So Arturo had this tendency to go low, a little bit too low. The chaos here, Mike, was that in theory, Ward could have had five minutes here. The referee is messed up at the end of the fourth round by not calling a timeout with six seconds left. Had he called a timeout, he could have, in theory, given Ward five minutes.

Once the bell sounds, he's only going to get the 60 seconds. But Ward says at the end of the 60 seconds, know he wants to go out. Paul is absolutely right. Ward's sense is a little bit of momentum, even though he's been dropped by that intentionally low shot. So we're moving into round number five now and it really is beginning to ignite. The two men involved in toe-to-to-to exchanges and as they come to the center of the ring, Mickey Ward is just trying to throw that left hook underneath the right elbow of Gatti and there is a distinct change in the style of the fight here because they are Much closer together, Gatti isn't being able to put that distance between himself and Mickey Ward.

He's trying to flick out the jab here as we're coming towards the halfway stage of this fifth round. But it really does ignite in the last minute or so of this round. Some astonishing exchanges. Yeah, and this is the fight everybody expected. This is the reason why they made this fight. And this is the reason why this fight was talked about to be made. And it was starting to finally live up to the expectation. I mean, they always knew it would.

but now it had finally warmed into the action that everyone expected. And still Gatti, he's trying to keep it at long range, and he's circling around towards his right, almost tramples on the referee, Frank Capuccino, who I thought for the most part, apart from that glitch that you were talking about, Steve, at the end of the previous round, at least understood what two warriors they were here

and allowed them to just fight on time and time again. And we're watching an exchange here with a minute, just over a minute to go now on the clock in round five. And this is now really setting the pattern for pretty much the rest of the fight as they slug away landing really solidly, both of them. And a lovely straight right hand from Gatti there as he backs onto the ropes, working away on the ropes at a brilliant combination. Blood appears on the right eye once again of Mickey Ward. 40 seconds to go in round five. And from here, Paulie, this is truly sensational. These last 30 seconds would match 30 seconds in just about any round in history, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And they're trying to, you know, they're your soul searching now with your opponent. It's not just, it's, it's, it's not just a physical fight, but mentally you're trying to show your opponent that you can go just as deep as he will. And these guys were known to be willing to go to where the opponent didn't want to go to in order to pull out fights and win fights, which is why they were so loved. But now they were testing each other in that way. Yeah, they're just, it's just incredible. They were just testing each other in this exact same way. But my or mental standpoint and what punishment, oh my goodness. And you look at the crowd in the background, Steve, virtually everybody on their feet at the end of this, the fifth round, stunning. We're only halfway through. So who knows what's to come? My God, I've played so much of that fight back,

not just to look at shots, not just to look at punsies, not just to look at the action in the corner, because I thought the minutes in the corner were brilliant anyway. But to watch the crowd, to watch the reaction of people at ringside. In fact, I noticed Bud Schultz, several times, almost covering his face.

But what's really interesting is there, with about four seconds to go in that round or five seconds to go in that round, Wald catches Gatti with the best shot he's thrown, the best left hook just underneath the elbow, just a couple of seconds gone. And Gatti's face is just absolute pain. He doesn't try, he's not poker player.

He doesn't try and hide it, Paulie. No, no, no, that's killer. It's hard. It's hard to show, not show, but it hurts. Yeah, that cringe, face. And poor Arturo felt that one.

He sure did. And when he got back to the corner, I noticed, Steve, that Buddy McGirt said to him, you've got to suck it up like a champion. And sure enough, he did because he got back on his toes in the sixth and seventh rounds and won both of those by consensus on the cards at ringside. So as we move into round eight, at this stage, Gatti is leading. And again, this is pretty much the consensus at ringside from what I've been reading back. He's leading by five rounds to two, but with the point deduction, it is slightly closer.

But we're moving now into round number eight. And again, it's this kind of action, which has made this, the kind of fight that so many people want to watch again, Pauli. Yeah, absolutely it is. And it's really the kind of fight that develops more and more into the kind of action you want. It's got that crescendo type of finish in the end, you know, that that crescendo kind of finish where, You can't, you don't think this can get any better, but it's going to keep getting better as a fight ways on. And we're watching the moments just before the eighth round and still work being done on that right eye of Mickey Ward. But it isn't really much worse than it was in that opening minute or so when it first occurred.

So they come out now for round number eight. And Mickey Ward has been told by his half-brother in his corner, Dickie Eklan, the man who was played by Christian Bale in that film we were talking about the fighter earlier on. He's been told, don't be a punch bag. going to continue to be a punch bag. I'm not going to let it go on like this. And just as Gatti responded to the urgings of Buddy Maghurt earlier in the fight, so Ward here is straight on the front foot. At this stage, with half a minute gone in round eight,

he's boxing from the Southport starts. Now, the last time he did that, he took that wicked body shot, which ended up in a point deduction for Arturo Gatti. But Gatti here again, is trying, as he had done in round six and seven, to keep it at reasonably long range. But punch by punch, it's, Ward who's getting closer to him. He sure is.

In all fairness, you know, Ward is getting closer, but so what he's done is, he's come out from the corner. He knows Dickie's not joking. He knows his half-brother's not joking. He has to close the gap down.

He has to get there because he knows he'll pull him out. He knows you'll yank him out at the end of that round. Their love is so strong. That's what's going to happen. So he has to get close. He has to continue to make sacrifices. And towards, as we get into the last night, seconds of this round, it starts to pay off. And Gatti is still, again, trying to keep his distance,

trying to work away at long and medium range, where he's having most of his successes, but Ward is getting closer, Paulie. And especially, yeah, exactly, especially that he's getting a little fatigued. He's obviously tired of fatigue. So he doesn't want to now exchange with this guy who he knows to get to his body, this guy who's hurt him to the body earlier already in the fight, at least once or twice. So he's trying his best now to say, okay, if I'm going to survive this fight, I need to keep this guy at a distance. It's just you can kind of see the sand face running out of the outer blast for Arturo. And he was going to wind up back at close range. Arturo going to the body with a minute to go with the right hand,

following up with a left hook which just grazed the chin of Ward. And Ward is again coming forward, takes a jab and the blood starts to stream down the right hand side of his face. But he almost jumps back into the fray. and he's really chasing Gatti now. And as you said, Pauley, Gatti tiring. And we really see evidence of that now over the course of the last 35 seconds of this round eight because he moves away.

Terrific left hand to the body there from Mickey Ward. And that made Arturo Gatti flinch yet again, Paulie, those shots that he just can't hide the pain of. No, exactly. And those are also things that are increasing Mickey's confidence. This is what it's increasing Mickey's confidence. He can see a tired fighter in front of him, a fighter who's fading. And so even if you're a bit tired, when you see an opponent in front of you who's fading,

it increases your confidence. It increases the fact that in your own mind you're doing what's working, and it's going to continue to work. And Gatty was on the attack there, walked on to a left hook, and then the last 15 seconds or so were torturous for him, and he has been battered to the point where he looks as though he's out on his feet, and Buddy McGuert is having to ask himself, the question as to whether he should call it off.

And Buddy's panicking a bit there, I think, because I think, oh, sorry, he's panicking Arturo because he knows Buddy, even though they've only worked together, it's their second fight. Arturo gives him a long, hard look before he sits down, because he knows, he knows he's taken too many punches, especially in that last 20 or 30 seconds. As brave as he is, as guts he as it is, as much of a throwback as he is, he's not resistant to sense. And he knows, he knows it could have been in a lot of trouble there another 10 seconds.

And we're watching a replay of the action of the last few seconds of that eighth round. And it was such a difficult finish for Gatti who had managed to land quite frequently throughout the course of the round. But now we're coming up to round number nine. And people talk about the first round of Hagler-Herns and the 10th round of Jose Luis Castillo against Diego Corales,

which was in 2005. And now we're into a round. that people rank alongside those. And in the first few seconds, a lovely left hook to the body from Mickey Ward, one of his signature punches. And down goes Arturo Gatti as the referee Frank Capuchino

points to a neutral corner for Mickey Ward to go to. And Gatti is grimacing in pain here. If I were commentating at ringside, Paulie, I might have said that I don't think he's going to get up. I don't think he's going to beat the count. And I don't think he's going to finish this round.

I really wasn't sure he would be able to get up. As I saw the count reach eight and nine, I thought, wow, he's not going to get up, which is what usually happened with Mickey Ward later, that body shot, especially this late in a fight, where, again, you have to put into consideration Arturo's fatigue. And then Mickey Ward was pounding back looking for the finish right after that, too. I was saying how willing to survive this round? I really had my doubts. And we come to a point now.

We're moving into the second minute, Steve, where Gatti unbelievably starts to respond. He gets on top from just about here for another minute. And that's the thing. And Arturo goes back to the body Whatever which way he can Like in the fight with Wilson Rodriguez Well he's going low He's going high

He's just he's throwing body shots I will but a lot of them were low too With Cabuccino Like an old throwback referee Is not saying anything And there was just a moment there About five or six seconds ago Steve where Mickey Ward

Just had a reset in the middle of the ring As if to say where is this fella coming from Where is he getting the energy from Because he'd had his great 15 seconds After the knockdown When he hadn't gone to the body That was maybe a mistake he made is if you can find a floor in anything that these two gave in this fight of sacrifices.

And then Gatti comes back and then Ward resets himself. And then Gatti comes back at him. This is like wave after wave. And just as Pauli was saying, Cappuccino and old-school old-style referee, without a doubt, Gatti hits Ward Loe of about six shoves. He hits him, left, him, right him. It's incredible. So Gatti's on the front foot.

But now suddenly there's yet another change of momentum here through to the end of the round. You just can't believe it. It's Gatti on top. And suddenly now it's Mickey Ward, right, abacut, left hook, slams in another, left hook to the body, left hook to the head. And now he's driving Gatti back to the ropes. 40 seconds to go is this another one of those instances where you believe that Gatti just simply cannot last.

He cannot survive to the end of the round. The final present, though, at the end of this round, it's coming up. I thought for sure the fight's over. Only Frank Camachino wouldn't stop this fight. And maybe Steve Smogel. other than that. I don't think anybody else would stop this fight.

You know it's special when you have to laugh at the ridiculousness of what's happening in front of your eyes. It's just astonishing, pounding away to the body. Swinging, swinging for the stars

in the last few seconds. Cartoon-esque. Yeah, it is. There's plenty of opportunity there for Frank to stop it. There's plenty of opportunity there for Frank to stop it. But the bottom line is,

he's that he's, in close. He can sense that neither of them have got anything left and they can both finish it with one shot. And Steve, apparently, Buddy McGirt was seen at ringside climbing the steps with a towel in his hand in the last few seconds of that round, which obviously we couldn't see and nobody watching on television could see. But we've moved here into the point before the 10th and final round and just about everybody at ringside had it either level or desperately, desperately close because of the two-point win in the round when Mickey Ward scored that knockdown there,

the ninth round, and also because of the point deduction. So could not have been closer going into the 10th and final round. Mike, you know, there's another point in that round when there's 30 seconds left, before this happens, before Ward traps him,

where there's an inspector walks all the way along the ring, all the way along the ring, to the other side and gets underneath the action to look up. I don't know if that's the Massachusetts. sorry the Connecticut Inspector, but he's looking to stop it himself. Then there's the chaos here at the start of this 10th round. What would you do if you were commenting on this then, Costello? What's happening now?

We've lost 30 seconds. Who would you want to blame? This is like Rihattman and Kostezu, and Ward has been told that he's won the fight in the belief that Arturo Gatti has been pulled out by his corner. But the referee says, whoa, whoa, the fight ain't over. And this is interesting here, you see. They start the clock at two minutes and 30 seconds to go. They didn't reset the clock.

So this 10th and final round was half a minute shorter. One of those, if there had been another 30 seconds, would it have changed the outcome? Who knows the way these two go at each other? And they're doing again in the 10th round, Pauli. And I love the beginning of the round where Arturo sees Mickey celebrating his win. And he comes out all very serious. Like, no, no, no, no. I'm still here.

We're fighting with this look, very serious look. As they touch gloves the beginning of the 10th round, he's got this disgusted look like, did you actually think I would. wasn't coming out for this round. Paulie and Mike, you know, there's a comment here from Cappuccino. You've got to love Cappuccino. He's the third man in this fight of Out of Doubt.

He's the third star in the ring alongside Al Gavin and Dick Ecclund and Buddy McGuette. They're all joint third. But he comes out of a quote. You love this. Cabuccino comes out of a quote with about 40 seconds left

when he's at to break the guys up. And he shakes, he said, and he goes, come on guys. Wait, wait for it. Act like pros. They just smashed each other the bits. And Frank tells them to act like pros. You've got to love cappuccino, man.

Show some balls, boys. A true throwback. Frank was a true throwback rivalry. Look at these guys. Look at this, Paulie. Look at Gatti in the middle of the ring here now. Is this the same man that we were talking about at the end of the ninth round? Is this one of the all-time great recoveries?

This is astonishing. With a minute to go, he's still trying to pick off Mickey Ward. He dances in with a left hook, still trying to out-punch Mickey Ward from distance here. and he's pulling it off until he takes a right hand there from war, but lands another one of his own. So from what we've seen here, all the way through the fight, the same pattern right to the end of the contest. 40 seconds to go, Paulian, no wonder this is a fight

that we're still getting so giddy about, nearly 20 years on. Yeah. Yes, and still momentum shifts like crazy even in the last round. I'll tell you what, the extra 30 seconds rest, Toursa, got with the round started at 2.5 minutes. Bingo, Pingo. It also did help him. and it also did help him in his ability to come out boxing a little bit at the start around at least.

And so the fight finishes here with the two men toe to toe swinging away, not really thinking about what they're doing, just aiming at the chin, punch after punch after punch. What a finish to one of the all-time greatest fights. And that last 20 seconds reflecting what we've seen across the previous half an hour. And just in the background, you see just about everybody rising. to their feet, everyone aware that they've seen something very, very special. That was one of those nights when you don't throw away the ticket stuff and you boast forever more that you were there. What a

contest. And at this stage, so much uncertainty as to who's got the nod. Yeah, you can see Dickie Eacklin there. He doesn't know who's got it. And Gatti goes back and sits down now whilst the doctor looks at it. We haven't mentioned this, Mike, but Gathe's vision is massively impaired, both left and right eye from swellings. He's losing a major percentage of his vision from both eyes. And that's been from about the third or fourth round, slowly, slowly closing. I had it absolutely level. Like the card we saw on HBO's version of Harold Laderman, 94-94. I actually had Arturo Gatti winning six of the 10 rounds, but because he suffered the knockdown and he had the point deducted, that brought it level on my card, 94-94. And the draw just seemed like the right result.

Didn't it really seem like the right result? Yeah, if I remember correctly, Richard Flerty, one of the judges made the ninth round a 10 to 7 rounds from Ward instead of a 10, 8 round. And I think that also played a big difference in the final result. And that was the single point that made the difference on his card, Paulie. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to get the verdict in a moment, but it was a majority decision win for Mickey Ward in the end. He won by one round by two rounds. and then the third card was level.

So a majority decision win for Mickey Ward as the bell sounds in the background for everybody to be given the formal result. And interesting, Paulie, that they went on to fight twice more within just about a year. And as we've seen in trilogies in the past, the loser first time round wins the second fight.

Yeah, absolutely. I was at the second and third fights. As a matter of fact, on the second fight, I fought on the undercard. So I was actually there competing myself in my 12th World fight. And then I watched the main event. I came back out shower and watched the main event. And then in the third fight, I attended it as well. And then both of them, tremendous fight.

And none of them could live up to the first one, which, of course, I don't think. I mean, it would be very hard to have another fight like the first fight. But the second and third fight, if you don't even think about the first fight, the second and third fight were also really terrific action fights. Yeah, especially the second. fight, even though the scores were a lot, lot wider. I was ringside that night as well, Paulie, because Aldly Harrison, Big Aldley was on the bill alongside you and these two.

And it was a terrific fight. It was a great fight. And, you know, Gatti won it, and he won it clearly. But forget the scores. That was a great fight. We're spoiled. You absolutely right. That fight there spoils you for any second fight or third fight.

You can't better it. And these would turn out to be Mickey Ward's last three. three fights, Paulie, at the end of a very, very hard career. Yeah, a very, very hard career, but a career where he was finally getting paid his just due. He was getting paid. He got paid a lot more money in these fights than he had been paid for the earlier part of his career, where he'd also earned, you know, the right to want more money, but unfortunately the politics of boxing had not done that for him. But Arturo was, Arturo and Mickey were like, you know, lightning in a bottle, so to speak.

You know, they came around both at the right time at the right moment, and they gave the fans these three terrific, amazing fights that no one will ever forget them for. And they're mostly, Arturo's a two-time world champion. Mickey never won a major world title, but regardless of the fact, when you mention either of these guys' names, you can't help to think of the other guy. Even if you talk to a casual boxing fan, if you mention Arturo Gowdy, they'll mention the Mickey Ward fight. If you mention Mickey Ward, they'll mention the Arturo Gatti fight. So they've become sort of wrinkles in time together for all fans.

And Steve, we spoke there about Mickey Ward for Arturo Gatti. He fought on, but in 2009, in controversial circumstances, was found dead in Brazil on his second honeymoon with his Brazilian wife. His wife was charged originally with murder, but it was later ruled a suicide. and his family to this day are still angry about that. And in fact, all sorts of cases are brought up and new charges that are suggested, she managed to walk free. Now, if I'm not mistaken,

and Paulie was at the funeral, which took place at the St John the Baptist Church in Jersey City, if I'm not mistaken, Paulie and Mike, it was on the day of the funeral that she was released. She'd been held by the Brazilian forces, and then she got released. And my understanding is, I remember talking to Lou DeBello about this.

I think it was on the same day, I think you guys were at the funeral and you found out that this woman had been released. And that basically the Brazilian police said that Arturo had stabbed himself in the neck and then strangled himself with a handbag, with a handbag strap. That's what they decided when they released her. If you really think about it, I know Pat Lynch very well, who was Arturo's manager for his whole career. And Pat knew Arturo so well, he knew him better than his own wife.

So really, Pat had told me he had hired private investigators to go down to. to Brazil, to take all the measurements. There was a stab wound or whatever, blood in the back of his head that they said he got hit by a rock or whatever. They kept changing the story around. So much is so fishy. I just couldn't believe.

Unfortunately, it's a closed chapter at this point. Yeah, she got the $3.4 million from the estate. And as far as I know, she then moved back to Montreal and opened up a children's, a children's like clove store. Staggering stuff, Paulie. Let's go back to the fight, Paulie.

And just look at how much those two gave of themselves. And you wonder how that might have followed them through their days and the rest of their time outside of the ring. But you've been there, two-weight world champion. Where do you dig two? Where does it come from when you have to find something like they found round after round after round? I'll tell you what, it's not the money.

When you're in there, if you're doing it for the money, those are moments the money is just not enough. You know, you'll always figure, ah, it's all right, they'll give me a check at the end of the fight anyway. It's not about the money. It's about your inner pride. It's about your inner desire to be great.

It's about your inner pride to want to be able to withstand anything. It's about your passion for what you do. Passion makes anything difficult, not difficult, including something so difficult as boxing and going through pain. When you're still passionate about what you're doing in there, that passion takes you through even the toughest moments. And you've spoken in the past to us, about at some stage, even for the gutsiest fighter, that passion dilutes and it subsides.

Do you think with Mickey Ward, they were his last three fights, the second and third fights, and who knows whether it was because of Gatty or because of Ward just losing something? But do you think he left something of himself in that first fight? Yeah, yeah, I do think so. I do think also. Mickey was the older fighter. So if there's something to be left in the ring, it was definitely war was probably leaving more

because to go to that kind of a punishing fight at 35 years old probably ends you, you know? And really in the second fight, he was pretty much dominated, even though it was a good fight. But in the third fight, although he was, again, pretty much outclassed, I'll say he dropped Arturo Gadi

at about three-quarters point in the fight and made things very interesting, you know? So Mickey still had whatever fire was in there. He's still trying to keep it burning. regardless of what he left in the ring in fight one. Yeah, because it's a long career, Mike. 18 years, Ward had, you know, 51 fights. And so, you know, it has to just naturally take a toll.

I mean, he could have gone out with three other fights, won one of those and lost two of those. It just, you know, there was just a natural, just natural wear and tear. And as Bud Schoberg had said, you know, three years earlier with regards to Gatti, you know, how much longer can this kid go on? Well, you know what?

He could have said it but about Mickey Ward as well because people have been asking that question for years and years before these two guys finally quit. And a question then to finish to you both, Steve first. How do you rate this? Where does it rank for you amongst the all-time great fights? It's one of the greatest fights I've ever watched secondhand. I wasn't live at the time.

That ninth round, you know, you mentioned, there earlier on, Corales and Castillo and Mike, that's in there. And you mentioned also there, Hagler and Hearns, that's in there. But that's in the mix. I might wake up tomorrow morning, and it's Hagler and Hearns. I might wake up the next morning, and it's the ninth round of Gatti and Ward. Unforgettable, unbelievable. I mean, it's the same thing for me. You know, I find it especially that I'm a bit more partial to Arturo Ghali. And he was my favorite fighter growing up. But then as my career went on, I actually wound up. managed for a few years by Salinano, who was Mickey Ward's manager.

So I became close to Mickey as well, who had been Mickey Ward's manager at the end of during Mickey's tenure. And I became close to Mickey as well. And so a tremendous amount of not only respect for both fighters, but became really a fan of both fighters and a guy who looked up to both fighters, both as fighters and individuals. And for me, it has a special place for those reasons. But also, of course, when you compare it to all the great fights and, and, you know, Bonsi just mentioned them, you know, Hagler-Herns, you mentioned Castillo and Carales,

also all-ed Lyle and former Lyle in there as well. You know, I think you cannot have a conversation about these tremendous fights without ever mentioning Arturo Gaglia and Mickey Ward. They're bound together in time forever. That's great, Pauli. It's been great having you with us. Thanks for your time, mate. Thanks, guys.

Thanks, Paulie. And if you've been listening along without watching, as some of you do, I know, well, I urge you to go back and take a look because it's possible even likely that you'll never see anything like this again. And we'll be back with another of the great fights revisited on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce very soon. Do join us. Costello and Bunce's greatest fights. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title,

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