5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - Hagler v Hearns with Andy Lee

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Tommy ‘The Hitman’ Hearns met in April 1985 for two and a half of the most explosive rounds in boxing history. Former world middleweight champion Andy Lee, who later trained in the famous Kronk gym with Hearns’ trainer Emmanuel Steward, watches along with Mike and Steve and remembers the legacy this fight left in Detroit.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Costello and Bunce's Greatest Fights. Thanks for joining us once again on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce and the latest in our series of Greatest Fights. And today it's the one that many of you listening will have as your undisputed all-time number one contest. We're going back, Steve, to Las Vegas and April 1985. Back in Caesar's Palace, back outdoors, back under the star.

and back with that crowd that gathers. And what I like about this fight? Well, I like everything about this fight, but I'll throw something in right at the very top. This is how old Vegas this fight is. This is how set in history this fight is. Liberace and Siegfried and Roy, the magicians, they're used in some of the telecasts, as the Americans say,

to predict the outcome. That's what it is. Liberace talks about this fight, Mike. Think about it that way. It's a fight for the undisputed middleweight championship of the world between marvelous Marvin Hagler making his 11th defense of the world title against Tommy Hearns. Build simply as the fight. And Steve, you get an impression of how huge it was back then. And again, it's a time when you and I were involved in amateur boxing.

So we can remember how this was spreading across the boxing world in terms of its appeal. But they had a 22 city promotional tour. That's how big this was across the boxing world. And we'd first got a taster of those kind of promotional tours where the two rival entourage is in different jets. We'd had a taste at that with the Tommy Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard fight a few years earlier. But for this one, the tour was extended,

announced in December at the exclusive hotel, the Waldof Astoria in New York. You've seen footage at that press conference, Mike. There must be 500 people in it. There's only three newspapers in New York, so go figure. And then they go on the tour and there's all sorts of problems about the jet and Bob Aramaster do all sorts of stuff. And it's just, there's something ancient about it, but at the same time it's an incredibly modern fight.

But there's just that whole touring, the idea that you're touring and you're selling fights for cinemas, closed circuit screenings around the country, and 22 cities. 22 cities in America. Now, I know America's big and you and I have been there a lot, but 22 cities. big cities. They must have stopped in one or two backwaters. Surely, Mike. It's a and in all fairness, the fantastic book written about this whole series of fights by an old friend of ours George Kimball. He doesn't really go into detail on the tour. I'd like a little bit more detail on the 22 city tour. I love the concept of that. And this, Steve, is a contest between two men

who were and had already built huge reputations in the sport at the time. We featured Tommy Hearns earlier in the series with Sugar Ray Leonard explaining in great detail how their first fight went with Sugar Ray Leonard winning eventually in the 14th round. This was a contest over 12 rounds. At the time, the WBO had yet to come into existence. Three titles were at stake here, the WBC, the WBA and the IBF. And the WBC had introduced a reduction in rounds for championship fights. they'd gone down from 15 rounds to 12 rounds, whereas the WBA and the IBF still had championship fights over 15 rounds. And those negotiations about how long the fight should be were extensive. But eventually they settled on 12 rounds, not that those 12 rounds were needed,

as everybody who's followed boxing for any length of time will know. And we're going to go through the fight with the former world middleweight champion Andy Lee very shortly, Steve. But let's just give a sense of who. the two men were at the time. I said earlier on that Hagler was making his 11th defence of the world middleweight title at this stage, a record of 60 wins, two draws and two defeats in his career so far at the age of 30, but was already looked upon as one of the very best middleweights of all time. Just 30 years of age. When you look back and you think about this,

you think about Tommy Hearns being a whippersnapp or somehow being eternally stuck at 22 years of age, the kid from Detroit. And you think about Hagler, always being 35. What he never thought till he was 35? You just somehow get him at that particular age. And what everyone loves, not I. What everybody loves about Hagler is the history, the backstory, the walking through the door, the Petronoli Brothers Athletic Club in Brockton, Massachusetts, where Rocky Marciano

was from. And the Petronellas and Marciano were due to form a partnership. But then, unfortunately, before the Partionle. partnership could be formed. Marciano died in a plane crash. And Marvin walks for the door at 15 or 16 years of age, depending on who you believe. So the petronaders had had him since he was a boxing baby and he turned professional making either $200 or $300. It's this really old-fashioned story. Again, Mike, it's that it's that sense that you get with Hagler and you get it with Sugar Ray Leonard and you get it with Tommy Hearns and you certainly get it with Roberta Duran

that they've got a foot in the black and white 1930s, and they've also got a nice coloured boot, white with some stripes over here in the dazzling 80s and 90s. They've got a foot in both camps. And Hagler himself, unfashionable, we can use all of these expressions, but we need to use some of the nastier ones. He was a permanently angry man,

and he still probably is a permanently angry man. The last time I saw him was last November in Scotland, that he was angry at end than I think he was in the build-up to this fight. He's just angry. He had lots of envy, even though he, at this point, banked about $40 million and would clear about $8 or 9 or 10 for this fight. He was angry at other people had made more money than him.

And Mike, I know that this is a long intro. I've got to read you a quote from Bob Aram. You know the quote, but I'm just going to get in. I hope you weren't going to come out with this next. He said, Bob Aram. This is Bob Aram talking, who promoted Marvin Hagler, was promoted just about every great fighter in the last 60 or years. He said, Bob Adam said, you know how fighters, two or three years after they fight become friends, will not Marvin.

Believe me, Marvin Hagler still hates every one of his opponents. And I can assure you, I've toured with Hagler. That is absolutely true. He's got a couple of notes when you tour with him. And it's, don't ask me nice questions about Leonard. Don't ask me nice questions about Duran and don't ask me nice questions about Tommy Hurd. because you won't get nice answers. That's what it tells you backstage

before you go out and interview him. And we first came to know Marvin Hagler in this country, of course, when he won the world middleweight title against Alaminta on a stormy night at the Wembley Arena in September of 1980. During his reign, he'd beaten Roberto Girand, part of the Four King series that you were referring to, on points over 15 rounds.

And after that, Tommy Hearns had destroyed Roberto Geran in two rounds. And that's why some pundits and the bookmakers slightly made Tommy Hearns the favourite. Now, as I said, we featured Tommy Hearns earlier in the series, right at the start of the series, losing after going so well for so long against Sugar A Leonard in 1981. He'd since moved up to light middleweight. That's where he beat Roberto Girand, and now attempting to win a world title in a third weight division. And interesting, Steve, that with him fighting for the first time at world championship level in the middleweight, vision against this man who'd been so dominant for five years that not only did people give him

a great chance, but many made him the favourite, like the bookmakers. Well, the book is fluctuated. They went left. They went left. They went with Hagley, went with Hearns. But it was always close, Steve. Oh, it was nothing in it, Mike. And in fact, on the night, on the night, I'm convinced.

I remember discussing this with various bookmakers over the last 10 or 15 years when I've done a Las Vegas bookies talk about boxing bets. I talked to them about this fight specifically because it was so neck and neck for such a long time in the Las Vegas sports books, as they're called. And what they said to me was, there was a mad flurry on the day of big bets, $1,000 plus on Hagler to win early, to win short.

The third round had started at 25 to 1. I've given it away if anybody's never watched the fire. I might have just ruined it for two new listeners. I do apologize. Not. Anyway, Mike, it started at 25 to 1, and that got drastically, drastically reduced, and that helped come fight night,

come fight night with Hagler and Hurons. Again, neck and neck. But had that mad amount of money not come in, Hearns would have gone into this. Okay, a slight bet in favour, but the bet in favour. And we're going to analyse the fight very shortly, Steve, and we're going to do it slightly differently

to the rest of the series. so far in that because the action is around eight minutes in total, we're going to go through the fight twice, once analysing it from the perspective of Marvin Hagler, and then going again from the viewpoint of Tommy Hearns. They're going to do that, as I say, in the company of the former world middleweight champion Andy Lee, who joins us now. And Andy, this is a contest that happened when you were barely a year old. So when did it first come on to your radar? It's hard to know. It's always, I guess it was always been floating. around, it's a legendary fight and it's always been in my consciousness. So I think, yeah,

it's been around since as long as I can remember in boxing. And it's always, it's now become a reference point from wherever there's a great fight or a great round, it's always compared to Hagler Hans. And the first round, yeah. You spent so much time around Emmanuel Stewart, living with him, being trained by him, part of the whole Kronk family. How important, was this fight to Mani Stewart, to the Kronk and to Tommy Hearns? It was always a saw point, even after those years that had passed.

It was never when we watched too much in the house. The house would constantly have boxing on on all the screens, and this was one that never got played, as you can imagine. It was still hurt. It still hurt after all those years. And the city of Detroit was hugely invested in the fight in Thomas Harns and how he captured the imagination of the city and kind of was a representation of the city.

And I know, like, a lot of guys lost a lot of money on it, too. There were some big backers there who flew out to Vegas for the fight and Tommy had a huge entourage. It was like him compared to Haggwitt. They were a complete opposite in that sense that Tommy prepared for the fight in Vegas with a huge crowd and the cameras surrounded him all the time. and Hagler was, you know, renowned for going into isolation, into prison, as he called it.

And, yeah, it couldn't have been any different, really. But, yeah, it was always a huge sawpoint. And even a man he would always would still wince when he would recall the fight to me all those years later. And Steve, you know, Andy there is pointing up one of the great attractions of the contest. It was between two very different boxes in terms of who they were outside the ring and their styles. Two contrasting fighters in every which way we've mentioned already. Hagler's a man that turns professional fighting for a couple of hundred dollars working 10-hour shifts on a building site. And Tommy turns professional.

Okay, after a good amateur career and was known. But more than that, has a city backing him. And I think that's really key point that Andy mentioned there, that concept that Tommy is the franchise for the city. The cronk is the franchise, and Tommy's the pinnacle of that franchise. The whole city's holding its breath. And I went to a fight in Detroit 15 or so years after this happened. And you still got the sense then when I was in Detroit that this was still Tommy Hurons' city, and it was still a great fight city.

And Tommy Hurons was our great fighter. And I'm intrigued Andy by just did many ever live? list the reasons. Before we get to the fight, did man, he ever list the reasons why that that fight left him so bitter or angry or whatever words you choose to use? I know that your affection for him runs deep, but he was angry over that fight, wasn't he? It wasn't. There was, I guess, when you lose a fight for any reasons, you always look back at all the small things that happen in the middle of one of the main things

Emmanuel used to say is that Tommy had as I alluded to a big entourage and everyone was coming into town to watch the fight and Tommy was there guy and it seemed like there was a lot of hangers on there and when you have hangers on like that people who

were just there and they just tried to justify their presence they do things that they shouldn't be doing and Emmanuel was always in control of things and it seems like he'd lost control really there was an incident before the fight, I believe it was Tommy's brother, Billy Hans, was given tickets for him and for Tommy's mother, but had sold the tickets. Because they were going for such big money, he thought,

you know, I'm Tommy's brother. I look exactly like him. I'm getting into the fight no matter what happens. I don't need a ticket. So he sold these tickets. And Emmanuel's in the dressing room, wrapping Tommy's hands, gets called away by security. because there's a big ruckus outside at the front lobby and it's Tommy's brother when he can't get in. So, man, he has to leave the dress room, go out and try to smooth the security and get Billy into the fight. And when he comes back, not having time to wrap Tommy's hands properly, someone's massage on Tommy's legs. One of the guys in the entourage, a massage in Tommy's legs. And the man, you just said that when I saw that a sports massage before a fight, moments before a fight,

he said, I knew, I knew his legs wouldn't hold up. And he said, I didn't have time to wrap his hands correctly. And one of the things, and I don't think it was talked about too much directly after the fight, but one of the things that did happen in the fight is that Tommy broke his hand. I think he came out after the fight. So all those things happened. And Emmanuel, just to say, when I lost my first fight to Brian Vera, me and Emmanuel went to the hospital, and he was in tears, Emmanuel.

and he said, I haven't felt like this since Tommy fought Hagler. And he just had his head in his hands. We were both there. The fight did hurt him. It hurt him a lot because I think had things gone different, he believed Tommy would have won the fight and should have won. And Tommy was the favorite going into the fight. You know, you forget that Tommy was the favorite.

I've read all the old reports and the old boxing news and different things. Tommy was the favorite going into the fight. It's interesting, Andy. You tell that story there. I've got that written down in note form from a coaching clinic I went to with Manny Stewart in London in 2011. And you've just told that story word for word. And at the top of the story, I've got one quote from Manny saying there was half of Detroit in Tommy's hotel room. And there was no crime in Detroit that night.

There were so many people in Tommy's hotel room that night. But look, we're going to get on to analyze the fight. And as I said earlier on, we're going to go through it twice, once from the perspective of, Hagler and then from the perspective of Tommy Hearns. But because it's so fast moving, Andy, what I want to talk to you about beforehand, and we're going to get there very shortly, is about the mindset of a crunk fighter, but any fighter, when it explodes like it does so early on, whatever you've worked on in the buildup, can you really rely on that, or do you just have to react to the circumstances as they unfold? Yeah, and I don't think so much it's a cronk thing. I think,

the way the fight pans out, especially early in the fight, the first round for Tommy, I think it could have been the making, I mean, Tommy Harnes was renowned for early knockouts, especially first round knockouts, first, a second. Emmanuel would always say, to me, always try your man in the first 30 seconds, before they've had time to adjust to the power they're getting hit with, you know, when you come out of the dressing room, you haven't absolved any punches. So you might not be accustomed to or acclimatized to being hit on the chin yet. So the first little punch can have a devastating effect.

So, Maynard would always say, try your man in the first 30 seconds, at least once. Tommy did that. And it did affect Hagler. And I think from then on, it just kind of spiraled out of control because you had to keep going with it, keep going with it. And all the time, it was playing into Hagler's hands because Tommy was getting dragged into a fight where you would say, I think the plan would have been was to box early. Box early, use your jab, use your advantages and fight tall and fight long. but he ended up fighting the complete opposite

because of the first 30, 40 seconds of the round. Well, let's head back to that Monday night, as it was in Las Vegas, April the 15th, 1985, Steve and Andy. And let's go through the contest, as I say, first time around from the point of view of Marvin Hagler and the excitement you can sense around the arena was absolutely sky high because these were two,

who'd been building towards this fight since 1982, three years earlier, when they were supposed to have met back then. There were various stories as to how that fight didn't happen. But here now, three years on, it is about to unfold, and the first bell is about to sound. They've had their instructions from the referee Richard Steele. So if you're watching online, we're going to take it all the way through this time, this first time from the point of view of Marvin Hagler.

Tommy Hurons shown in the corner in the familiar Kronk Gold. trunks with his name emblazoned across the waist and Richard Steele steps aside and the bell sounds for the beginning of the first round and Hagler launches in with a right hook straight away followed by a left hand to the body and there are four successive left hands to the body from Hagler in this opening sequence he goes through with a second one to the body a third one and then follows up with a right hook to the head and that Andy that provokes Tommy into opening up on the ropes here as we see this incredible exchange inside the first 30 seconds Yeah, Hagliss said he stole out straight away

and I guess he wanted to let Tommy know what he was in for from the opening bell that I'm going to be coming forward and the left hand for a South Pole against an off-lux box especially a taller one is always an easy shot especially to the body as well but Tommy is responding and I think some part of this is machoism

and I said about Tommy being the emblem of Detroit he has to respond to this because that is Detroit and that is cranky, can't back off or try even hold he's trying to hold but he has to punch. And if you think about it, Mike, Pat and Goody Petronelli,

the brothers that had, the construction brothers that had run the gym were and had Hagler now for 14 or 15 years. They said all the way through the training camp in Palm Springs

and then the final five days at Johnny Tokos in Las Vegas, they said we're going to have a war with him. That's how we beat him. We're going to back him up. We're going to have a war of him. We're going to push him back. He doesn't like it.

And we know if we catch him, he's going to swing for us. And that means we'll catch him again. They laid it out plain. Tommy Hearns attempting to box on the back foot here. We've now reached a halfway stage of the opening round. And as we watch with a minute and 20 seconds on the clock, a right hand here lands from Tommy Hearns.

We're going to stop the clock here now. We're going to go back and everybody listening, if you just stop the clock as it appears round one, one minute and 20 seconds to go, Tommy Hearns landing flush on the forehead of Marvin Hagler. And we see if we roll on the action now, just for a few seconds, I think there's another important moment here

as they come away from this particular clinch, you'll see Hagler just dab at the forehead there. He's aware, very aware, that he's been cut, Andy. And again, that will have an effect on his psyche and his attitude to the rest of the fight. Yeah, I think he knew, and as the fight goes on, the referee actually stops the fight to have a look at the court. And I think he knew that it was, he had to,

He was fighting against the clock, as well as fighting against Tommy Hearns, because he knew there was, he had to get, there was an immediacy to it, that he had to get on with the fight and tried to damage Tommy Hearn before the cut took him out with the fight. But even though he's cut and he's been hurt by maybe three right hands so far in the fight, he's still barreling forward with his head down and punching Tommy Harns back and pushing him back.

and I think even though that has an effect on Hagel's side, it also has a huge effect on Tommy's cycle because Tommy is hitting with some clean right hands now and he's not budged him and there's not been able to halt the march forward of Hagler. Mike, at this point in the fight, I know we've still got the screens stopped here. At this point in the fight 90 seconds in, I think it's safe to say they've both taken punches that others have not taken.

They've both connected with the type of punches that have left an awful lot of their 100, odd opponents combined total on the floor or on easy street, as they say in America. They've landed flush. And that short right hand that Andy was referring to that Tommy catches Marvin with after about 30 seconds. I know we'll look at that again when we go through the second version of the fight, looking at it from Tommy's point of view.

But you see Hagler. You see him rock and he just stands on the spot. It's almost like he clenches his fists inside his gloves to clear. his head. And then you see Tommy had that same reaction. What they did in this first round, there's an argument that you could watch this frame by frame and make it last 10 minutes. That might be about the only way to do that first round justice, Mike. So that critical right hand landing from Tommy Hearns with a minute and 20 seconds to go in the opening round and then shortly afterwards Hagler dabs away at that cut knowing it could be serious. So we're going to roll the action on now

and watch the remainder of the opening round. So there's just over a minute to go. It's difficult to separate them and so much so that the judges had different views as to who won this round, but still a minute to go and still potentially a chance to sway it their way. And Tommy Hearns is on the ropes.

He's tried a right hook and then a right uppercut as well. As Hagler was coming in, as Andy said, boring him with his head forward, tries left hand over the top from that south-bore stance. And the two men are pretty much on the ropes, exchanging shots at close quarter range. And these shots, Andy, are really, really cleverly executed by two fighting men.

Yeah, both of them are taking their head out. Even though Tommy was tall fight, is shown actually a good ability to fight with his back against the ropes, why he's bobbing the moving and punching and taking his head off the line. A lot of these shots from Hagler are straying low. And they're probably not, probably intentional as well, but it's all part of his game plan, that he's just going to rough time your hands up.

And we've got 15 seconds to go now in the opening round and coming up is a crunching right hook at the end of a three-punch combination from Hagler and Hearns reels away onto the ropes but immediately throws a right up a cut of his own and so the exchange right at the end of the round in keeping with the pattern of the entire first round and what we're going to see for the whole of the contest

and punching Andy right the way till the sound of the end of the first round. Yeah, and even man, And both men staring at each other by the round end because they knew what had happened and neither wanted to show any weakness. Mike, you know you mentioned there the scores were split.

Two judges had it 10-9 for Hagler. One judge had it 10-9 for Hearns. Well, I prefer the reply, properly from a man called Pat Putnam who worked for Sports Illustrated. At ringside, as you know, we all shower. How did you get that round? How'd you do that round?

Apparently Putnam piped up when he was asked how he scored that round. He said 11-11. And I think that captures that round perfectly. And we're watching the action in the corner, actually, between the first and second rounds and Goody Petronelli getting to work on that cut right in the middle of the forehead of Marvin Hagler,

as well as watching slow motion replays from the action of that first round. Not a difficult job for the producer working on the highlights package. As we now move forward to the second round, referee Richard Steele separates them. And at the start of the second round, Hagler launches in again.

time with a left hand. At the beginning of the opening round, it was a swinging right hook. This time it was a left hand. And Tommy Hearns is noticeably on the back foot here, trying to keep distance between himself and Hagler at the beginning of this second round, Andy. Yeah, he's trying to box. And you could see that instruction would have been from Emmanuel to box. Use your jab. Stick to the plan. Don't get involved in a fight early with this guy. But sometimes you just have to fight. Sometimes you just have to answer. And I think that's what happens, as we'll see the tape roll on. Tommy will eventually have to stand with Haggard and fight again.

He's trying to put it. He's trying to, he's landing perfect shots, and he's trying not to give, he's trying to halt the momentum of Hagler, but it's just, he's just irresistible at the moment. But part of the problem in some ways, Andy, with Tommy is his previous history. And the fact, you know, that whole mantra, the man he steward, why you get a man hurt, you go for a man. So even when he's moving like he is here in the second round, every now and again he'll clip Hagler and the old instinct will kick in.

So in that sense, as well as he's trying to move, I understand that. He's also, you know, he lands with a half decent left hook or a half decent right hand, and the Tommy, who's had manny in his ear since he was a baby, wants to go for him. That's his instinct. And looking at it from Hagler's point of view as well. Now, Hagler is trying to close down the ring space

and he's not giving Hearns a moment's rest, prowling after him the whole time. He's still waiting for those shots, like he's just landed there with a right hand. Even if he's slightly out of range, he's just making sure that he keeps Hearns working the whole time. Mike, I think he's quite happy with the way things are going out. Even though he might be getting out boxed moments early in the second round,

and he might be taking a few shots as he's marching forward, he's happy because he knows he's wearing tummy down. He's wearing tummy down. He can see Tommy's. slightly start to come a little bit, a little bit weathered and a little bit, you know, his coordination is not as good as it was. His feet are looking a little bit heavy. And this is all just playing into Hagler's hands. What Hagler says about the last minute of the second round is that that's when he could tell

that Tommy was tired. Nothing to do with Tommy staggering. He could just sense it and he could feel it. And Andy, just to pick up on something you mentioned earlier, just how many body shots there are and how many borderline body shots there are. There's a borderline body shot in just about every single Marvin Hagler attack, just about every single attack has one borderline body shot. And a very strong finish to this second round from Hagler.

Punch after punch to the body, as Andy Yu said some of them straying low, but he's putting on sometimes irresistible pressure now, the last few seconds of this second round with Hurons on the ropes on the left-hand side of the ring as we look on. I think he knew, if he stood him back and boxed with Tommy Hearns,

it would only end one way with the Harnes win. He knew this was the only way he was going to beat Harnes. And this is perfectly suited to this type of fight. You know, with the passing of time and how it can change how you remember a fight, like this fight goes down as one of the greatest fights in history, the best three rounds in history. But when you look at it, you know, in hindsight, it's a totally dominant display by Hagler. It's a really one-sided fight when you look at it. And it's something that I've seen, like the passing of time does, does obviously tint the memory a little bit.

Now, it's a great fight, the great first round, but after that first round, you watch this fight, and it really is a dominant display and a three-round destruction by Hagler. You're absolutely so right, and that happens so often in fights,

because as competitive as it is, Hagler's dominating. So it's one of those that sounds like a contradiction in terms. How can someone be dominating a competitive fight? Trust me, they can. We're watching it now at the start of the third round. Yep, the bell's just sounded,

and the action resumes at the beginning of the third round and how can Tommy Hearns respond here in the corner between rounds? Emmanuel Stewart said to him, keep moving from side to side, give Hagler lateral movement, try to make him miss. Haglamp does miss with a winging overhand right, but he seems very steady on his feet, Andy, as you were saying, he's happy with the way the fight is going.

He's happy to be pushing Hearns around the ring at this stage. Hmm. And he's marching forward. Now he knows maybe the first 30 seconds of every round, Tommy will have that energy reserved to stay away, but he knows only the amount of time. He's reeling them in. He's real and a minute.

Working away on the ropes on the far side of the ring, and very soon the referee will step in, Richard Steele, as he does now, steps in between them, calls a time out and takes Hagler over to Hearns' corner and calls up the ringside doctor, a man called Donald Romeo, to have a look at that cut. and immediately the fight is waved on. It's just a cursory look by the doctor.

And straight away, Hagler is allowed to continue that cut, which appeared in the midway stages of the opening round. And still, Hagner is pounding away to the body here. And there's a very significant right hook. It's a long-range right hook that Hagler launches into, not too different from the first punch of the fight that he threw. And then Tommy Hearns reels away. It's landed just now. Hearns reels away, almost turns sideways. Hagler misses with a left hand

follow-up, but comes through with a right hand, crunching onto the jaw, and Hurons falls forward and then sideways flat onto his back on the canvas. The referee, Richard Steele, takes up the count and somehow Tommy Hearns from that position flat on his back manages to get up, but he's staggering in towards Richard Steele and Richard Steele waves it all off and the arms of Hagler are raised aloft. But that was finishing of the utmost quality, Andy. It was, and I think half of it, as much as Tommy's hurt from the punch, he's also exhausted from the fight and the previous two rounds. But these scenes that we're seeing there,

they're kind of etched in memory and they become, they're haggler being raised in the ring. They're iconic images, aren't they? Something that I grew up with my whole life. And one of the best performances, I think, in a middle of, like in a championship fight, similar to a fight we recently had with Fury, be wilder. It's a similar performance

by Hagler is what Fury did to Wilder. And we were lucky enough to be commentating at ringside on that first night when they fought to a draw and he imagined being ringside commentating on this. The whole of the buildup, the action is it

unfolded, it just would have been such a highlight of a commentary career. Yeah, one of the greatest fights in events and moments in boxing history. Mike, how do you think, you say that about commentating on it? And I've seen you get excited.

I've seen you. How do you think you would have been after this, Mike? Seven minutes, 52 seconds, with a couple of minute break and a three or four minute walk to the ring. How would you have been, Costello? Tell me the truth. Absolutely drained. From eight minutes of work, you'd have been absolutely drained. And I have to say, this as a commentator and as a commentary challenge,

I think this is as difficult as it gets and as easy as it gets. and let me explain that apparent contradiction. Easy because the crowd noise would have been such that to be perfectly honest, whatever you said as a commentator on radio, the noise would have been such that you would have captured the occasion. Having said that,

it's very difficult to miss the key punches here. While you're concentrating on talking about, for example, a left hand to the body, a terrific right hook to the chin lands by the other man and you miss that key punch. a really difficult exercise in selective choice of which of the punches you describe of the many that were thrown and the many heavy, meaningful punches that were thrown. I've often thought about this fight and, you know, when we're asked, is there a fight we'd love to go back and have

covered? And mine, I've always said, is the rumble in the jungle. But in terms of action and the challenge for a commentator, it's this one. Yeah, listen, I couldn't agree more. I'm going to pick up on one thing. You might have heard me chuckling there about a minute into that last round. The reason why I was chuckling handy is that having watched it again and again over the years

and then watched it again just in prep for this show. I noticed how quick the referee, I think his name is Donald Romeo, something like that, how quick his inspection. You're the doctor, sorry. Richard still takes Hague Lom over

to have the cut inspected. Hernes his fans at ringside in their tracksuits are jumping up celebrating thinking their man's got to get out of jail car. But how long do you think from the moment that Steele says stop to the moment that Steele says box after he's been to the corner and the doctor's jumped up, it's seven seconds.

It's seven seconds. You sneeze longer than that. I mean, can you think about, in modern boxing, imagine, well, you watch any fight for the last 10 years, they go over to a doctor. The doctor gets up, another doctor gets up, He puts on his gloves, he puts on this. It's about 30, 40 seconds for an inspection. Seven second gap.

That's unbelievable. I love that. Steve, that could have been as deep to the bone. That fight was not getting stopped. You're so right. You're so right. I like to think, I know Mike's got an apothecical towel about what Hagler said to the doctor,

but I'd like to think the doctor said, it's just a nick. Get in there and fight, son. That's what I'm like, that's what. Tell the story, Mike, about what Hagler's meant to have said. Yeah, the story goes, given that it was seven seconds, apparently the doctor said to Marvin Hagler, can you see? And Hagler said, well, I'm not missing him, am I? But as you watch the action there, there was absolutely no dialogue between boxer and referee, boxer and doctor, referee and doctor. No dialogue whatsoever. As we said earlier, we are going to rewatch the fight. We're going to go

through it once more, looking at it from the perspective of Tommy Hearns. And I know we did make reference to Hearns during that first watching of the fight, but we're going to go through it from your perspective, Andy, and how Hearns and Manny Stewart would have been looking at that particular experience. But the official stoppage time, one minute, 52 seconds of the third round. Two of the judges had the first two rounds to Hagler, but the other gave both of those first two rounds to Tommy Hearns. The two who gave it to Hagler included the British judge and referee Harry Gibbs and the other judge gave it to Hearns but your feeling is watching it back Andy that Hagler was in control. That's the sense you get from watching it all these years later.

Yeah, apart from the first 30 or 40 seconds where he was hurt and had to weather a little storm it really was a dominant display by Hagler and how the fight played out, his approach. and probably how he dreamt the fight happening and wishing it would go is exactly how it went. So if you want to spool back now, we're going to go back to the beginning of the contest all over again and just look at it

from the perspective of Tommy Hearns, perhaps what he might have done differently. Was Marvin Hagler absolutely irresistible on the night as we roll the film back to the first round and the two men coming into the center of the ring once again for those final instruments? instructions from the referee Richard Steele. Tommy Hearns at this stage is 26 years of age now, beaten only once in 41 contests, and that was that contest against Sugar A Leonard that we featured

earlier on in our greatest fights series. And as Andy was saying earlier on, he was, according to the bookmakers and many good judges, the favourite for this fight. As we see, the two men in their respective corners and the rest of the camp members have now exited the state. stage referee Richard Steele steps back and the bell sounds at the beginning of the first round and there's that winging right hand from Hagler once again followed by the four left hands to the body as Hearns is trying to keep it at long range off the back of the left hand jab, throws two, three successive left hand jabs before he takes a crunching right hook to the Cheernan one of the first moments of success for Hagler. But then on the ropes here, this cluster

of punches from Tommy Hearns are successful because Hagler actually just slightly staggered away inside the first 30 seconds after that exchange that we've just seen on the ropes. Before the exchange of the rope, there's a right hand that lands and it's quite a short right hand. But that was the one that hurt Haglan and probably led to this pattern and the dynamic of the fight being established where they're going to stand toe to toe and probably ultimately led to Tommy's downfall because he got drew into this type of fight. but Tommy as Steve had said earlier had this history of knocking people out early in fights and he was probably thinking okay I've got him hurt now

and if he if his preparation wasn't correct if there was chaos if you can get your man hurt early it's almost like well I got out of I kind of got away with one there because I knocked him out early and the flaws are all the mistakes I've met in camp didn't get time to show themselves

didn't get time to play out And, you know, we commentate on the fight, Mike, you and Steve, Frampton versus Warrington, a couple of years ago now. And an explosive first round like this, where Frampton gets hurt by Warrington, and instead of holding and wevering in the storm, he chose to retaliate and fight back. And in doing so, kind of set the tone in the pattern of the fight again, similar to this, where he had to fight warrington's fight and go after Warrington. and Chase Warrington, and that led into Warrington's raids and fights and bursts. It kind of led into Warrington's hand. Although that fight went 12 rounds, to me it was a similar pattern to this fight. So we're going to stop the action here and go back again for a second time to the beginning of the round.

Having heard what Andy said there now, let's just watch it again with that information in our minds about how important this first 30 seconds was in terms of how the entire contest unfolded. this. So we're going to watch it again from the first bell with Hagler pretty much on the rampage and forcing Tommy Hearns to fight his kind of fight very early on. And watch out for that right hand that lands from Tommy Hearns when he's got his back pretty much to the ropes. And there is a slight stagger from Marvin Hagler, but he stays in range. That's absolutely key. And there's a signal very early on that Hagler can take the best of what Hearns has to offer. So the bell has just sounded here. Hagler wades in with that overhand right, followed by the first of four left

hands to the body. Hearns, meanwhile, he's trying to stay upright, flicking out the left hand jab, three in a row that he throws. Then he's backed around onto the ropes by a right hook, brilliant right hook from Hagler, onto the right hand, two successive right hands, then an uppercut from Tommy Ernst on the ropes here. We're going to watch this now and follow it through. But Andy, as you say, this is a key, key key key key moment in the fight, a key 30 second segment in the whole fight. And if you look at that moment, when Hagel was hurt, he was able to tie Tommy up and push Tommy back to the ropes. Something that Tommy was never able to do when he was hurt in this fight. Do you think that's a sense, Andy, that we've got here the natural middleweight and the man moving up from light middleweight, and that was a factor?

I think so. I think so. And see, the thing is, with Tommy, he's throwing big shots trying to get, trying to, trying to per. Hagler again, trying to get Hagler out of there. But in doing so, he's even himself open. And because he's thrown a half punch himself, it's doubling the power or the effect of Hagler's shots, those little shots to the body and little shots to the chin that he's thrown in between Tommy's punches.

I mean, Tommy's already changed his body shape from the first 30 seconds to this now, 50, 60 seconds later. The first 20, 30 seconds of this fight, that is absolutely textbook way for Tommy Hearns to beat. Marvin Hagley. He throws fast jabs. He's moving away. He's backing away from the shots. And then it all goes wrong when not he gets caught, but when Tommy catches Marvin with that right hand and Marvin does that thing where he just grits his teeth and pulls his fist together in his gloves, that's when the fight is lost in some ways. You're so right, Andy. After that,

he has to change his pattern and the pattern he changes to is Marvin's pattern. And that right hand, that significant right hand from Tommy Hurons is landing once again. The cut has appeared on Hagler's forehead by now. We're coming to the final minute of the opening round. There's another exchange on the ropes. They've been separated by referee Richard Steele, but Hagler comes forward again. And we've got another one of these exchanges on the ropes where they're, it's quite brilliant. If you were to slow it down in slow motion, we're going to let it go through in real time. But how they're finding room for these punches at such close range. You know, to the uninitiated, it would look like they're just slugging away, Andy. But they're

They're looking for the openings, aren't they? And there was two huge right hands from Tommy in this exchange on the roads with 26 seconds ago. But the Hagglars just keep barreling forward, barreling forward, and this is just super the Hagler. Tommy Hurons had an incredible way

of setting up knockouts, and he would throw his jab at a certain pace, and the right hand would follow at a different pace. And I could see that the plan was, just from watching this, that Tommy would throw an overriding jab, which would be he's left jab over Hagler's Southport jab. He throwing that, throwing that.

And then when Hagg gets occupied with that jab from Tommy, he would sneak the right hand through at a different pace. But he's just not given time or room to throw it against Hagler. So, Mike, it's at the end of the first round when Tommy sits down. That's when Mani always claimed that that's when Tommy said to him, I broke my hand. And Mani says to him, you've hurt you. And Tommy says, no, I've broke my hand,

which of course, they didn't mention. post-fight in Las Vegas, but when they got back to Detroit, they went and had an x-ray, and indeed he had broken bone in his right hand. They kept it quiet, though, as Andy mentioned earlier in the broadcast. We didn't assess first time round, Andy, the work of Goody Petronelli in the corner there. There's just not a semblance of panic, and that's so, so important. I know, you know, he's had a lot of world title fights by now with Hagler, but so important to hold on to composure as a trainer. Yeah, and I think it was probably the opposite in Herns's conduct, because

Emmanuel's so emotionally invested, getting word from Tommy that his hand is broke, knowing that he had the massage, that there was a ton of people in the room, that Tommy's mind was probably on everything else except the fight. Emmanuel being so emotionally invested, and Tommy and Emmanuel known each other so well, to disguise that kind of hurt or panic or you know, fear from what's going to happen and what's going to unfold. Into the second round now, we've had around 45 seconds of it so far. And this is, as we saw first time round, this is Hearns on the instructions of Manny Stewart,

clearly trying to keep it at long range. A lot of the work behind the left hand, flicking out the jab, and then he tries a left hook. He just stumbles away, but that was because he caught his foot over the front foot of Hagler as well. Hagler boxing from the Orthodox stance at this stage, just as adept at orthodox as he was. as a Southpore and it was interesting as well as i was watching the fight back time and time again Andy how sometimes Hagler really didn't seem to know himself whether he was orthodox or Southport

he was just absolutely determined to close down the space between him and Hearns I'm not sure but i believe Hagler is a right-handed Southport and there are often times even when he would stand southport you'd always get his opponents against the ropes get into an orthodox position then and throw that right as a cross uh you know even though it was contundiative to be in the Southpour, which a lead hand jab. Tommy's trying to box and he's trying to move, but already you can see his legs and his body are starting to betray him. A minute and 20 seconds to go here in round two, Steve,

and Hernes is still trying to keep it at long range. Hearns is trying to keep it at long range, Mike, but it's not a comfortable long range. It's a desperate, it's an urgent long range. He's crossing his legs. He's retreating too quickly. He's hitting the ropes too quickly. He's not replicating what he was doing.

doing in the first 20, 30 seconds. This is, this is mildly desperate stuff. And just to pick up on Andy's comment about Hagler, he is right-handed, yeah. He's a switch round south boy. His first fight, in fact, was as an awful dog. But what he actually said about the switching is he said, I don't even think about it. It just happens. I don't know it's happening.

So it's that natural to him. He just switches. He just does it. It's not a plan. It's just natural. And we're coming towards the last 30 seconds of the second round. And this is a really torrid spell for Herns, as he's trying to cover up and he put solid shots time and again are coming through from Hagler two successive left

hooks to the chin and even when they land simultaneously it's Hagler who comes off the better Tommy's trying to get Marvin's respect by punching hard and punching with him and trying to fight fire with fire whereas to get to hindsight I think he would agree that if he could just grab hold of Hagler walk forward and use that to slow the fight break Hagler's momentum disrupt his momentum and let him have to reset and regain all that momentum of coming forward, of gaining position. It would have been much more effective. The referee steps in to separate them,

Richard Seale, at the end of the second round, Steve. Yeah, you know, there was enough good judges at ringside, enough good boxing writers, American boxing rights, and British boxing writers, McElveney, Harry Mullan, who thought that there was a chance, there was a chance that Hagler might just burn out. They thought his punches just lacked a little bit in that last 20, 30 seconds.

Now, it's hard for us watching that to agree with that, but I judge those voices. I judge Kimball and Mike Katz and McElvenny and Mullen from ringside. And they said, they all wrote Mike in their reports the next day written this night, that they sensed that Hagler's punts were just slowing slightly.

They didn't comment on the fact that Hearns looked increasingly ragged. So Hagler, we see on the screen, rising from his stall now at the start of the third round. Referee Richard Steele heads over there just to take another check on that cuss and in this round he will call on the doctor to have another look at it. And Herns again is on the back foot, trying an overhand right at the beginning of this third round.

But even when he's throwing these jabs now, they seem to have been losing a little bit of their authority. Andy and Hagler is seeing them coming now and sliding inside. them ducking underneath or just dropping a shoulder and making him miss. He's trying to mix up the jab. As I said, Tommy would try to occupy you with the jab. Turn your eyes, get you looking one way, and then obviously sneak the right hand through

with a different pace and a different spot. But if you look at the start of the round, it's Hagler who's up off he's still first. And that's hugely, you know, that's a psychological thing where he's getting up and he's shown he's ready to engage. It was Tommy who was up off the stool second. And this exchange now over towards Tommy Hearns' corner and Hagler wades in with a right hook

and at this stage again referee Richard Steele as we said first time around calls a time out and there is this brief interlude where the doctor has a quick look and then immediately says to referee Richard Steele that the fight can be waved on but Hagler clearly thinks that he might be in danger of losing here

because it was a cut that was caused by a punch of course and he wades forward starts working away to the body lands a lovely right uppercut referee separates them once again. At this stage, Andy, if you're watching on, are you thinking that Hearns has got any chance still? Is there any way you can see him turning this his way? Yeah, it would have to, like, Haggard would have to dramatically slow down. I can sense it now, and here's the end coming. And I said,

Tommy's hurt by that right hand. He really is hurt, but he's also exhausted. And I think it's, by the first of the right hands. When he does get up, the referee wails are, waves it off. He's not complaining. He's not complaining. I think he knows himself that it's over. How did he get up at five and six? He's out. He's out as cold as I've ever seen a fighter on the floor. He is absolutely out of five or six. How does he beat that count? That is stunning. That is staggering. I could never get over. I could never, ever catch my breath when I watch that recovery. And we watch Hagler celebrating one of the finest victories. of his career and we can see just how much that means to him and he because as you were saying in

the buildup for many hernes was the favorite and there was a a lot of questions should we say about you know the the future reputation the legacy of Marvin haggler if he didn't come through this particular fight he was always a guy who thought he never got the recognition he deserved he always had that chip on his show lot and that met him the fight where he was but this was his crowned the moment. And I think finally, after all those years of struggling and struggling to get a title fight first of all, and then winning it and having a controversial, when he won it the first time but he didn't get the decision, he finally gets the recognition on the big stage against a marquee name. And all these years later, people still talking about the first round as being one of the great

rounds of all time, but the fight being one of the great fights of all time. And even though, as you say, Andy, from your point of view, it was a case of Marvin Hagler being dominant throughout. There were plenty of heavy shots landed by Tommy Hearns for it to live long in the memory and the way that it's done. And as I said right at the beginning for many, this is their nomination as the best fight of all time. Can you imagine being there, being Liva, being around at that time to build up to the greatest fighters in middleweight history going at each of and then for them to produce something like this, three rounds?

How often did these fights get built up, built up, and never live up to any sort of expectation. These two guys truly delivered. And I know who I said as a diamond display by Hagler, Tommy Hearns played a big part in this fight and made the fight. Because he chose to fought or had to fight the way he did, it made the fight what it is today. Five months of build-up, Andy, five months,

a 22 city tour. Mike and I talked about that earlier. Over 100 fights between them, World title fights, massive fights involving great fighters in great venues. I mean, the world stopped for this, didn't it? And I'm not over-egging it. I'm not being dramatic. This was one of those fights that people stopped.

And that's why Aram's selection of it as the fight was perfect. And that's why when we were watching those celebrations again there for the second time of Marvin Hagler at the end of the fight, he was fully aware of what this meant to him in terms of his reputation and his legacy and how he would be remembered. It could have been so, so different had this gone against him. Mike, you know, Hagler had to, Hagler and the Petronelli's had to lobby local government and national government to get their chance to fight for the title. And as Hagler said, they kept finding guys unbelievable, unbeatable guys to fight me.

They found guys that no one had heard of who were so tough. They were so hard. I had to go on the road. it took me a long time to get that respect. And even after this fight, when, you know, he should have had maybe a rematch with Duran or a quick fight with Leonard.

He has to fight John the Beasts McGarby. I mean, John the Beast, McGarby would beat an airplane. If they were on a runway, I'd back McGarby to come outstanding. I'd back the Boeing 707 or 747 to lose. And he had to fight him. And you know what that fight was like? That was brutal as well.

And that was before he got to Leonard. That's why, and we mentioned earlier, he was angry, man. That was Hagler's motivation, that anger. Yeah, and as you alluded to there, Steve, he fought only twice more against John the Beast Mugabe and then losing on points in 1987 to Sugar Ray Leonard. For you, Andy, how does Hagler rank among the all-time great middleweights? He's up there. He's up there.

Sugar Ray Robinson, Carlos Manzan, Marvin Hagler. and you have to mention Bernard Hopkins for the defenses. But those four, the greatest of all time, certainly. Are you, Steve? Oh, same thing, it's that four, that mix of four, and people might say, why have you got Hopkins in there? And you've got Hopkins in there because he goes 12 and 15 rounds of all of those guys.

He might not necessarily beat any of those guys, but he gives every one of those guys a nightmare, horrible, 45 minutes. And just you mentioned Robinson there. Robinson was at, was ringside, and apparently he nodded his approval. All of the hacks would desperate to turn around and get Sugar Ray Robinson to give a quote. And the only quote he would give was he'd shake his head.

Apparently he shook his head with a small smile on his face. That's good enough for me, Mike. And as far as Tommy Hearns is concerned, Andy, I know you would arrive at the cronk gym many years later, but he went back down to light middleweight and won a world title or defended a world title back down at light middleweight, then moved up to light heavyweight, beat Dennis Andrews to win a light heavyweight world title.

But it's a bit like George Foreman and Muhammad Ali in that quite often when you first think of the career of Tommy Hearns, you think of defeats to Marvin Hagler and one we covered earlier in the series against Sugar Ray Leonard. For all the greatness of the man, he's actually marked by two defeats. And that's a sad part, like one of the sad parts about these big fights. So one's going to have to win. someone's going to have to lose, and the loser will always remember as well as the winner. And I think we saw that in those celebrations of Hagler.

Yeah, and people forget. He absolutely annihilated Roberto Giram, who beat Ray Leonard, who fought Marvin Hagler within an inch of his life. You know, so there's swings and roundabouts, and that's what made those four fighters so great. Andy, I must ask you, when we were in Las Vegas, which seems like a million years ago, and in the glory, you were there obviously. obviously with Sugar Hill, Stuart, Mani's nephew, and you'd been part of the architecture that had led to Tyson Fury putting off

that fantastic win against the Auntie Wilder. I remember at one point after you led us back, the Five Live gang back to Tyson's changing room. You went out and then you came back with Tommy Hearns. And I remember looking at Tommy Hearns coming in and, okay, he's not the Tommy that perhaps some of us would like him to be. but boy oh boy he's got something about him as he still has that presence he parted that crowd

do you remember those remember those police that were stopping people and they just moved the side they parted because tommy hernes was in the building Tommy hernes was going to the changing room boy that was a great night wasn't it he's still the hit man he's still the motor city cobra and he still has that aura and he still has that look in his eye that he could turn the switch the lights off at any moment if you look at it in the wrong way. And likewise, marvelous Marvin Hagler as well. A great night, two great fighters. And that's the kind of fight, Steve and Andy,

as we close down now, that if ever, you know, you're in danger of falling out of love with this sport, if you just, if you turn to that, then it'll help drag you back. Oh, they'll drag you somewhere, Mike. You know, I made a note here as we were watching it again, as I was watching it for like the fifth time today and probably the hundreds time in my life.

I made a note here and it's quite simple. How do you measure time in that first round? How do you measure time in that first round? What is time? It's a big question. We're dealing with weighty issues at the moment. How do you measure time and what is time when you get 180 seconds of what those two men did that night

underneath the Nevadans sky? I have no idea. I wish I had the answer. And Andy, you would win a world title in years to come, one that wasn't available back then. The WBO wasn't in existence back in 1985, but you were a world middleweight champion. And when you

watch a fight back like that, do you put yourself in the position of Hagler? What would I do against Hearns? And Hearns, what would I do against Hagler? Can you resist doing that? It's very hard to compare yourself to grades like that. And I was, honestly, I was never in those

two men's class. But you would be so hard to fight those guys, to fight either of them. Because Tommy, he was a sharp shooting, knockout specialist. And Hagler, as you saw, determined, as much as he was great as a fighter, what was internally his mindset, his heart, his courage, his bravery,

that meant him just as great as technically as good as he was. So very hard to fight those guys. I always, I would have liked to have a go. You always would have liked to measure yourself. Even when I went to the crunk, all those years later in 2006, Tommy would ask me to spa. And I always refused because I just didn't want to fight. I didn't want to get in there with one of my idols. You know, I didn't want to have to punch him or he didn't punch me.

So I think that sounds enough. Andy, we've spoken in the past about various performances of great fighters and how that might have been one of the standout performances of all time. To my mind, Joe Frazier beating Muhammad Ali at Madison Square Garden in 1971, taking away variations in weight because heavy weights these days are much bigger. I've just got the view that Joe Frazier that night was just so determined, so inspired that he might have beaten any heavyweight in history. Do you think that performance by Marvin Hagler,

so determined, so irresistible, so hard punching, would have been, eaten any middleweight in history on any given night? Sometimes you have to look past the technical ability or the speed or the power and sometimes it just boils down to who wants it more. And I think on that night, after all that he'd been through, I think Hagler would have wanted it more than anybody. So yes, I think it would have been a very hard, a very, very hard man to be that night against anybody.

Once again, it's been a pleasure having you with us, Andy. Thanks for joining us and see you. ringside sometime soon. Thank you for having me, guys. Always great to be on. Thanks, Andy. And thanks to everybody listening for being with us

for the latest in our series of greatest fights back in April 1985, Marvin Hagler, successfully defending the undisputed world middleweight championship with a stunning

three-round win against Tommy Hearns. We'll be back soon with another in this series of greatest fights on five live boxing with Costello and Bunce. Costello and Bunce's

greatest fight. Thanks.