5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - Sugar Ray Leonard on Leonard v Hearns

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

In the first of a new mini-series, one of the greatest boxers of all time, Sugar Ray Leonard, relives his late stoppage of Thomas "The Hitman" Hearns in 1981. Leonard remembers how Angelo Dundee's corner work was the key to inspiring his late onslaught that ended the fight, and explains how the aftermath of this fight led to a dark period in his life when he abused alcohol and drugs. 'Greatest Fights' will focus on a brilliant or significant bout in boxing history. With a new episode every Thursday, Mike and Steve rewatch the fight with a boxer - either one who was directly involved in the fight or who was heavily influenced by it. Future episodes include Ricky Hatton and David Haye.

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and a new mini series for you during these unprecedented times of lockdown and quarantine, and Steve, we're calling it the greatest fights. And that's because it is the greatest fights. Starting today and for the next nine Thursdays, we're going to rewatch some of the best, the most significant, the most memorable, the most unforgettable, the most unforgettable fights in boxing history. But it's not just going to be me and you, no,

we're going to sit down. We're going to have next to us, well, in theory next to us, some of the greatest fighters in history. Going over fights, they've been in of fights that influenced their careers. And you'll also get your regular Monday pod as well. What more can you ask for?

And for this first one, Steve, we're about to contact him, but I'm about as giddy as I've been at any stage in my career, the prospect of going through a fight with this man. I mean, in my lifetime, the greatest was the man who called himself at Muhammad Ali because of the impact that he made, not just in boxing, but across the landscape. but in terms of boxing ability inside the ring, the number one that I've seen in my lifetime, and he belongs at the top of the list all time,

is Sugar Ray Leonard, and we're soon to hear from him on the podcast. Mike, you know, you say soon to hear from him, I'm only going to believe it when Sugar's in the room with us. Let's get that absolutely straight. Every time you've ever met him, you've come away, every time you ever bump into him. In fact, every time you ever see him,

you come away with something. You're walking, you're touching, you're looking at history. And that's because, Mike, the stats really, well, the stats are fantastic. The fights are unbelievable. But it's all of it. It's all of it together. It's a man who shaped and changed history. He's a modern fighter.

He's a slick fighter. He's a brilliant fighter. He's flawed. We know some of the stuff we know now from his latest books show just how flawed are you. human being he was. But in the ring, on his night again and again and again and again, he was incredible. Sugar Ray Leonard, a joy to watch. And I know you all have your idea as to the greatest fight of all time, but Leonard against Hearns in 1981 has to be there up with the very best in anybody's list because of the fluctuations during the course of the contest, the sheer

quality of the two men in the ring at the same time. And this will be one, as you say, Steve, of a series of 10 where we revisit some of the most memorable nights in the history of the sport. And going back to this period, Steve, when it happened in September of 1981 in Las Vegas, there's a time when I was just beginning my coaching career. And the impact of Leonard around the world was that such enthusiasm was seen in a gym in a tiny corner of Southeast London. and by youngsters who wanted to be Sugar Ray Leonard at a time when there were plenty of British stars to want to emulate at the same time.

Mike, there was, and bear in mind, it's really hard to explain this, that you couldn't instantly, like if you were out with your friends in a pub or down the street or in the gym, you couldn't say, oh, have a look at this, I've just watched this. You couldn't say, have you seen this,

I'll send you a clip of it. It was hard. These, we passed VHSs like they were holy relics. and they were so young. I keep going back to this, how young they were. In this fight, Mike, 23,000 people outdoors in Caesar's Palace, the tennis court and the car parks. Tommy Hurons was 22 years of age, correct? 22 years of age, unbeaten in 32 fights with 30 stoppages. And Mani Stewart, and Mani Stewart was a whippersnapper.

He was only 37 himself. And I think Dundee was only something like Angelo D'Soo. Indeed, in Leonard's corner, was only something like 60. This was unforgettable at the time, and now, looking back on it after the passage of time, it's unbelievable as well. And Tommy Hearns was actually the bookmaker's favourite on the night of the fight, Steve,

even though Sugar A Leonard had opened up as the favourite when the fight was first announced. As you say, Tommy Hearns, with that very impressive record of knockouts, and Sugar A Leonard had suffered only one defeat in his career at that stage. He'd become world champion in 1979 by beating Wilfred Benitez, the very cultured Puerto Rican in terms of his style in the ring, but he'd lost the title to Roberto Geran when he decided to trade and go toe-to-to-toe with him over 15 rounds in 1980 and then beat

Roberto Geran in the famous no-mass fight in their rematch. So everything was building towards this fight between Tommy Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard in Las Vegas. And it's, it's, it's It's kind of hard, Steve, to spell out just how eagerly awaited this was around the world at the time. Mike, if I'm not mistaken, Bob Aaron managed to get from the Caesar's organisation a world record site fee of something like 7 million, which looked like it would be untouchable. We didn't last that long to be perfectly honest with you. But the two of them, despite that loss, which was obviously avenged, they were the two greatest fighters in the world at that time

that could be matched together. That's the key. That could be matched together. And how we're going to play this, as we're talking about the fight, you can watch along with us. So, for example, if you're listening on BBC Sounds, just go out of the BBC Sounds app,

find the fight online, and we will guide you along as to when we're going to move from one round to another. We're generally going to cover six rounds of fights that lasted that long. and for today we're going to cover rounds 1, 6, 7 and then 12, 13 and 14. And as I say, each time we'll warn you when we're moving along. So if you want to get the fight teed up, we will start at the first bell.

And you can hear the great Sugar Ray Leonard describing how it all unfolded on that night back in 1981. Just before we do get to contact Sugar Ray, Stephen, get into the show. Just underline what he was at the time for you. for me it was a man who had such beautiful skill in all the necessities of boxing. The defensive guile of Floyd Mayweather in the modern era, but also had that extra degree of spite where when he made his opponent's miss, he made them pay for that and went and got them. He had that attacking instinct that certainly in the second half of his career, Floyd Mayweather didn't have. And I think that's what elevates Sugar Ray Leonard for me.

above Mayweather. He had all of that beautiful defensive guile. He saw punches coming long before the opponent even knew he was going to throw them, but he made him pay in sometimes vicious fashion. You know, the man almost derided sometimes as a pretty boy was actually vicious in the way that he finished his fight sometimes. And I love that, that twist, that the way he fought when he sensed that he could get to an opponent, the way he thought wasn't really the image. image that have been portrayed to us over that years. Because he's been packaged, let's get it right, which is why he was such a name. There was that nastiness, that desire to finish.

And that's why I think that first Duran fight is such an interesting fight, because it is the fact that he does use his heart and not his head in that particular fight, that he does get suckered into it by Duran, who'd insulted every single person in Leonard's gang, including, of course, Leonard's wife at the time. and he gets suckered into that fight where he's not the Sugar Ray Leonard, the slick Sugar Ray Leonard that we'd seen beforehand.

He's a different type of fight to a different type of beast. And then, of course, the contrast when they had the rematch and he pulls off a master class. You know, we still talk about roper dope and what Ali did in the rumbling in the jungle at 4 o'clock before the monsoon hit.

That Sugar Ray Leonard, in that rematch, combined with the first Sugar Ray Leonard from the first fight, and combine what we're going to see, oh, Mike, the man could do it all. Five Life Boxing with Costello and Bucks. It's time now to say hello to the man we described earlier on as a legend, Sugar Ray Leonard.

Ray, an absolute pleasure to be joined by you for this to start of a new series. And we've been talking about how we were buzzing about this fight. young lads in and around boxing back in 1981. But just watching it over the last couple of days, it struck me that next year marks the 40th anniversary and yet everything about it, the styles of you and Tommy, the trunks all around the fight, everything just seems so modern as though it was yesterday. You know what, Mike and Steve, you know, the fact of the matter is that fight was so long ago, but it's so clear in my mind right now. I mean, I, Tommy Herman.

was just a beast. He was more than a fighter. He was a warrior. He was a gladiator. He was a beast. And going in, this was regarded generally as you, the boxer, against him, the puncher. Is that how you were seeing it in your preparations, in your training camp? I didn't really know for sure, but I felt that I had to be the one being the shorter guy

to get inside. I had to work my way inside. and that was the biggest problem getting inside without being damaged. Easier said than done getting inside Tommy Hurons his arms, right? Well, the fact, Steve, Tommy, I mean, Tommy's hand speed and Tommy's height, Tommy is a freak of nature at 147 pounds, a welterweight. And the thing about it, when he made the weight, he was so weak. He really was weak.

I remember vividly with way of making weight on the scales I was like I don't know 146 no problem at all and Tommy was like he looked emaciated but that night in the rain I don't know he just blew up

he just blew up and I said I you know because I figured that would be a factor it was not and we're going to join it in the first round very shortly Ray but I just want to get an idea from you. Here we are still talking about this night, as I said earlier, almost four decades on. Were you aware in the buildup walking to the ring that you were taking part in something that would be monumental in the history of your sport? Not of that degree, but I knew that it would be

a big fight and it was going to be a big fight. This was highly anticipated because of Tommy's record, my record, yes, I knew it was a big fight. Well, let's go back then to the night of Wednesday, September the 16th, 1981, just outside Caesar's Palace in a purpose-built arena down the Las Vegas Strip. And this fight for the undisputed World to Weight Championship of the world, Tommy Hearns, the WBA title holder and Sugar Ray Leonard has the WBC title holder. The record on the screen showing 30 wins and a single. loss that had been in a world title fight against Roberto Girand, a loss that was avenged

a few months later and the camera now switches to Tommy Hearns on the other side of the ring with that record that Steve was talking about earlier on, unblemished in 32 fights. 30 of those had finished inside the distance. And at this stage, Ray, you're staring across at Tommy Hearns in the opposite corner. What's going through your mind? I'm in a zone. I'm in that total tunnel vision and I'm looking at him. Actually, you know what? I'm glad you asked that question because I didn't look at him. I didn't give him my eyes because he will be looking down at me and you'll notice that I'm not even looking at him. I'm talking to what I'm turning around. I'm standing steady warming up and not giving him that attention so he can glare down at me.

Oh my gosh, this is great. Oh, and the two men now go back to their respective corners and the whole boxing world a buzz as to what might happen here. So many differing opinions in the build up to the fight. Would it be Leonard the boxer, as many said, would it be Hearns the puncher? And here, Ray, I noticed that in the first two seconds, you dart in with that jab to the body. What was that in terms of part of your strategy? Because for the next minute or so now, you pretty much dance and put distance between yourself and Tommy. You got to take me back into a moment and my career that was so amazing.

The reason I'm fighting Tommy, I'm actually boxing Tommy because when I got into the ring, I was looking around who in this audience can beat Tommy Hurons? And I looked at Muhammad Ali. So I said, I'm going to be Muhammad Ali in the first round.

And I start moving. That's what I'm doing. I'm being Tommy, stand movement, not a stationary target, mobile, jabbing, using the jab. Oh, my gosh.

But could I do this for 15 rounds? Could he do it for 15 rounds? I can see you throwing punches watching it again, Ray. Oh, my God. This is great, man. I tell you. You know, by the way, I didn't tell you this earlier. But Tommy Harnas, Tommy called me yesterday and we talked because we're friends now.

I thought what was interesting, Ray, was how the kind of, of course you had respect going into the ring, but that seemed to grow during the course of the fight as well. We're going to come, we're halfway through the opening round now, and you've just landed a grazing right hand over the top of the shoulder of Tommy Hearns. But at the end of this round, there's kind of a mini scuffle at the end of the opening round, and there clearly is a lot of animosity there. But over the course of the fight, that respect just grows and grows and grows, doesn't it? Oh, that was respect from the very beginning. We just didn't show that, or we didn't say that. But, I mean, here we just trying to figure each out. We're just trying to see what works. So I'm moving. And

again, Tommy's power is just amazing. Inside the final minute of the opening round, Ray, and you're using great lateral movement here. How aware were you? It was a focal point of the buildup was Tommy Hearn's right hand. How wary of that right hand were you? I was, I don't want to say wary, but concern. But I knew Tommy had power. Tommy has power in both hands, knockout power in both hands. And again, my movement was just to feel him out,

see what he couldn't and could not do. And the movement worked, but at some point, I got to get inside. I got to be more aggressive. But this is just the first round, so I'm doing what is necessary. This is what you expected you do, Ray, move like this in the first round.

Well, yeah. I mean, but then again, his jab was so, his jail was so accurate. His jab was so strong, powerful. I said, I got you, sucker. That's why he punched me. I told him, I said, I got you, sucker. Yeah, a bit of action after the bell there. But interesting what you're saying there, Ray.

All three judges gave Tommy Hearns that first round. I actually thought it could have gone either way. But you're comfortable in what you were doing was enough to set the scene for your overall performance, you're saying. Well, yeah, again, and especially when he got mad at the end of the round, when I said, I got you, such. I touched him on the head. I said, I got you. And he responded like, ah.

So I'm saying I'm getting into his head. But that didn't last long. I think we saw signs in that opening round as well, Ray. You pointed to that. Hearns his left jab. There was a lot of talk, as I said in the buildup, about this dynamite right hand that got rid of the Mexican Pepino Quayvival. as for him to win the title in the first place.

But the jab was strikingly accurate at times as well. Oh, the jab was something that, I don't know, I couldn't counter. It took me a while to get used to it. And that's why Tommy was so dominant in the very beginnings of his previous fights because his jab was so potent and so powerful and fast. it was just amazing. We're going to move on in a moment, Ray, to round number six. Now, five rounds have gone at this stage as we move on.

On one judge's card, all five of those have gone to Hearns. And yet it is still, it's a very competitive fight. If you look at the ball statistic, it looks like Hearns is running away with it. So what are you feeling at this stage now when five rounds have gone? You don't necessarily know what the judges are thinking. But, you know, he's four one up on two cards. He's 5-0 up on another card. So the feeling is that, you know, he's got the measure of the fight at this stage going into round six.

What's your mind saying? Well, you know, it's so, first of all, this is such an important fight to me, such a six. Death can fight to me. And I'm thinking about composure. I'm thinking about taking my time. I'm thinking about at some point I've got to be a little bit more aggressive. And Tommy, again, the way you look at him now, it's very difficult to, to, laying a punch on him. So I'm still thinking, say, don't give up on the movement.

Don't be stationary. And I was doing just that. I was looking for an opening. That's what it was. I was looking for an opening. And at some point, his jab was getting to me more, more so than ever before, because all of a sudden I noticed that I was, my left eye was, you know, starting to swell a little bit. Yeah, and that was just swelling. You had problems in. sparring, Ray, didn't you? And it reappeared on the night. It did, but it was Tommy's jab that really did the damage. It was just hard. I mean, his jab was just a thing, perpetual motion, fast and just hard. You know, a fast jab is one thing, but a fast jab and a hard jab, oh, it's a great weapon. One of the fascinating elements of the fight, Ray, and we're into round six now, and the

clock is saying one minute and 45 seconds to go. We've got what looks like at this stage, if I were commentating on the fight, I think I might have said that the puncher in Tommy Hearns, so it was perceived beforehand, is outboxing the boxer. And we're going to come to a stage here now in the second half of round six, where the boxer starts to outpunch the puncher. And this is a very significant round, Ray, isn't it? Yeah, because at some point I got to get inside. I've got to become more aggressive. The movement is great, but I'm not being productive. So my key, and in fact, Angela was eventually say that, it was to get a little more aggressive. Because always when the boxer-puncher, the puncher has to get inside, has to be more aggressive.

He has to be to win the fight. There's a key moment there, Ray, where you caught him with a left-hook and he reels back onto the ropes. Key moment. My thing was, once I had to get inside. heard a guy and it's natural once I heard a guy I take him out of there I just for the most part take him out of there but Tommy showed me his boxing skills me Tommy it was difficult to to land a good shot on him or two shots and it was also hot in that ring I think it was over 100 degrees now as we watch this action here right now everybody watch the clock when it says 26 seconds to go here comes a left hook to the body there it was from you ray that was a show and hernes just doubled forward almost leant downwards. He flinched

noticeably, didn't he? And I know Mani Stewart said after the fight that that was one of the key punches, if not the key punch, in the entire contest. Well, the thing about it, it was the fact that I stopped going to the head as much than I just surprisingly went to the body.

And that caught him off guard, I mean, Tom was in great shape, but that shot did hurt him. Right, at that point now, the last 20 seconds of that six round, I know you've said you usually close out fights. Did you think you could, you would get to it? even in that round or early in the seventh. Going to, you know, at the end of the round now,

are you convinced you're going to get to him in the next minute of the next round? You know, Steve, good question, but I was so exhausted from just throwing the number of shots that I threw. I was exhausting. Here, you know, Tommy, Tommy has his hands down, so I'm trying to wait for that punch, the right hand.

But he was just, again, his advantages was high, reach, and speed. and power. So it was difficult. You know what I did manage to find to the pair of you. Before the fight, I managed to find some reports and previews in the British newspapers where Angelo Dundee is talking about

my guy will be the puncher in this fight. It's not going to be, it's going to be a reversal of roles. Dundee was talking about that two weeks beforehand. But that is, you know, the thing about it, that happened naturally. I mean, I was not thinking about outboxing time. I didn't ever think that was going to be a case.

the case, you know. But it happened because we both changed style. I became more aggressive and the boxer and Tommy became the boxer. It's just ebb and flow, Evan flow. And Tommy here, like the great champions do, Ray, he's trying to show you that there's still plenty left in the first half a minute of this seventh round now. He really is firing away. These are some of the best exchanges of the whole night. But look at Tommy's part. Tommy throws jabbed right hand. And he also goes to the body. He's a very good body puncher. How badly hurt were you at any stage in the fight, to the body or the head? He never hurt me. He never, the second fight, he hurt me, Bay. First fight, he never hurt me. He just, he wore me down, but he never hurt me. And there's a

brilliant cluster there, Ray, right up a cut, and then you switched it around, left hook, right up a cut. And at this stage, again, if I was commentating, I'd be thinking maybe this is the beginning of the end. But Tommy manages to hold on where, minute and 35 seconds to go or so in round number seven. I'm just reflecting back very quickly while we're watching this terrific action in round seven, Ray. Was there a feeling that maybe if you lived that sixth round again that you could, you could have stopped Tommy? You know, everything is, everything is about Tommy and the perfect punch, the perfect time, the perfect part of the body. and here I thought I had him

but again guys I know I mean I I I can feel myself I can relive this fight I was so tired I was so punched out but I had heart and I was going to the body

going to the head and then he came back with some stuff of his own you see me going to the body yeah that left hook to the body was a real key punch throughout the fight Ray wasn't it an undervalued punch I think people talk about a lot of the skills that you had

but you know the glossy stuff to the head but that left hook to the body timing again was so so impressive guys i think you created something here i'm having flashbacks i'm having a little but this exchange on the ropes here now i'm just just going to bud in steve last 20 seconds i mean this again is just terrific two men at the absolute peak of their careers and is ray you're going forward right hand over the top working away and as they the action comes to a close here last 10 seconds of the seventh round and again you weighed in right hand over the top then a left took another right hand over the top and hernes is trapped in a neutral corner on the far side of the ring as we look on as

television viewers and you're still pounding away and now he stumbles back to his corner absolutely stumbles there's nothing left in those legs but this is fascinating ray you're saying that there's there wasn't too much left in in your legs oh my it was my legs it was just my arms i mean i I punched so much here. Once I get him in trouble, I'll throw a great deal of combinations and try to get them out of there. And Tommy took those shots.

Again, I'm going to the body. Those were the shots that were really the dominant ones. Those were the shots that were more effective. But, and Tommy comes back. He comes back with his own, you know, own throw, a combination of punches. I remember this, guys.

I can feel this. I can feel this fight. We can get that sense from what you're saying, Ray. And we're going to move on now to the closing stages of the fight. We're now going to take up for those of us, for those of you who are watching as well as listening. We'll move from this round seven onto round number 12. And then we're going to take it all the way through to the end of the fight. But from round seven, Ray, and it's interesting that, you know,

reading back over the postscripts of the fight and the various postmortems and how Mani Stewart said to Tommy Hearns in the corner after that seventh round, you're going to have to start punching or I'm going to pull you out. So he was absolutely as gone, or so it seemed, as he was when he stumbled back to the corner. But he managed to come back the next three and four rounds. And I just wonder, were you conserving energy over the next three and four rounds? Because he won a couple of those. No, conserving nothing.

I gave it all I had. I just kept punching. I try to get them out of there. Oh, my God. I can feel this punch right now. It's amazing what I can recreate in my mind and in my heart right now. So thanks, guys. But it's a measure also of, you know,

why we were so looking forward to this contest. We've already seen now a serious switch in terms of the fortunes with Tommy Hearns, you know, being in front for the first five rounds of the fight. Now we've seen two rounds with you in front. Then Tommy manages to come back, not with anything that's necessarily blistering, but he does manage to get back in control. And it looks as though he might be coming back to win the fight,

Ray, as we move into round number 12 now. And somehow, even though you were talking five rounds ago about how tired those arms were, you're still managing to get some venom in those shots. Mike, I'm at face. Mike, Steve, guys, I was exhausted. I mean, words can't describe how I felt, Matt. I mean, I look bright.

I look like I'm rejuvenated. but I was exhausted, totally exhausted. And how bad is the eye at this point, Ray? How bad is the vision out of the left eye? Well, I can barely see at this point, but, you know, I just kept it going, just kept it going. Again, he was still so hard to constantly to penetrate. Yeah, it's looking like at this stage here, Ray,

with him getting behind his jab and then bending in the knees, right hand to the body, as if he's starting to get back in a group. move and having won the 11th round on all three judges scorecards Tommy now it's in a situation where we're going into the 12th round here if it goes all the way you need to win all of these rounds just to get a draw well yeah I mean I if I just know when we're losing we do know the individual we know I thought it was close but I kind of I didn't say he was winning but I know was like that close. And at this stage, Ray, how can you turn it back your way then?

Because you've had your successes in the fight. And now Tommy, as again, he's behind the jab now and he's trying to pin you back on the ropes. You move back to the center of the ring here. But what are you doing now to try and get somehow, get your initiative back and to, you know, to get back on top? At this point, my trainer said, Angela Dunn, they said, you're blowing it, son, you're blowing it.

And I got to give it all I have. And this is all I had. I mean, I was so tired. It's amazing. I wish I could really articulate and explain what's happening in this fight here. I know Tommy has an edge. I know it's closed, but I know I have to do something. I have to make something dramatic happen, which I think I throw a right hand.

I catch you. Yeah, we're into the 12th round here, and that big action comes in the 13th round here. But it is interesting how Hearns is holding his ground in the center of the ring and pretty much dictating the round with one single shot, the jab, yeah. I mean, guys, this round in particular was so, I mean, just, I was so exhausted. I was so tired, my legs, my arms. the only thing that was kicking strong was my heart and my mind, I'm thinking. It's at the end of that round, Ray, that's when that Dundee gives you that speech about you're blowing it, son.

You're blowing it, son. You know, this is when you find out if you're a man or a boy, you're blowing it, son. It's at the end of that 12th round when he says that to you. Was there any panic in your head at that point, right? I know you're exhausted, but are you panicking? Are you nervous? I'm going to use the word. Are you scared?

You might lose here again? You know what, Steve? That's a good question. I like that. That was scared. I mean, all those things were factors more than others. But I knew what he said with the perfect, you're blowing it, son, you're blowing it. He wasn't, he wasn't, Angela wasn't loud.

He was just the white voice. And it resonated with me. It came, I knew what I had to do. So we're moving into round number 13 then. Tommy Hearns won that 12th round that we've just seen. He's well ahead on all three cards. And coming up here is one of the most momentous rounds in the history of boxing for sure. We've seen the first 20 seconds.

So Tommy Hearns here now has to stay on his feet to win the undisputed well-to-weight championship of the world. We've had half a minute and he's still on the front foot and he lunges him. in with the left hook and you just raised that right glove ray to take it on the chin. And I noticed after this scuffle here, he kind of stumbled into the ropes. And I wonder if, you know, that just gave you a sign that he really was so badly fatigued. No, no, it was a trip, but it wasn't until I dropped the right hand. I mean, to be in here and to talk about, to commentate this like we're doing, which I love. because I remember how I felt

and I remember what punch was the best punch and what punch was needed and how much of my heart had come into play. But I hit him with that right hand at some point here that just said, okay, it's your time now. Yeah, it's just after the halfway stage coming up as you say, Ray. And I think what's remarkable here

is the amount of patience that you showed that there's no tearing in, there's no panes, and you're just in a calculated way looking for the openings. And there's a big shotgun up here. There's the right hand. Absolutely. How did that feel, Ray? I'm just letting it go, guy. I'm exhausted, but look at, I mean, I'm throwing some shots.

These are just incredible where you step back, give yourself some punching room and just flail away. And then Tommy Hearns goes through the ropes for the referee, Davey Pearl, decides at this stage not to count. He determines that you pushed him through the ropes, Ray. Right. And he says, get up. He tells Tommy to get up,

but you're straight back on him, Ray, straight back on him. I jump back on him, and I can't, I can't, even I can't understand how my hands were able to throw punches at this stage in the fight, 13th round. I mean, it's unbelievable. Some of the most important moments of your career, Ray, take us through now the last half a minute of this 13th

and ultimately the penultimate round. I'm trying to shut, I'm trying to stop. I'm trying to cut the ring off and everything. But again, now my legs are dead. My legs are dead. They just can't stop. My mind is sharp.

I know what needs to be done. And I'm just trying to stay on top of time. You see here, I'm not letting anything go. I just stay on top of him and go right back to the body at some point. Yep, there. Beautiful, Lev took to the body last few seconds of this, the 13th round. And this time, Tommy Hearns, in virtually identical, the position goes through the road.

And Davey Pearl, the referee, takes up the count at this stage and continues the count after the bell. And it's a badly dazed Tommy Hearns who almost lets the gum shield fall out of his mouth and leans on the top rope over on the far side as we look on again as television viewers. And that was such an important round. As you go to sit down, Ray, are you thinking, I've got him or are you just too tired to be sure? Yeah, I'm too tired to be sure. But I'm saying to myself, this is it. This is the time. It's now or never.

And that's what my mind is saying to me. My body is a different story. My body's saying, come on, guys. Let's take a break. Your body's not listening. Your body's not listening, right? My body is not listening. You know what?

You know what I love here, Mike, and sugar? You're telling us the punts just before you throw them. You could close your eyes. If we gave you a timeline, you could say it's going to be a left hook to the body now, left hook under the elbow. You're telling us every punch. quite incredible. Hey, Steve, I was there.

This is wonderful, guys. So here we go then, Ray. And this certainly is wonderful, the 14th and final round. One of the great moments of your career. Take us through again. Well, you know, the first punch I threw was a body shot.

And I whipped it a round shot. And I got to stay on top of him. I got to stay on top of him, on top of Tommy and be more aggressive until I get him. And credit to Tommy, he's still firing away, Ray. He's still thinking there might be a chance. Maybe he's sensing that you are as tired as you're telling us.

Well, Tommy right here, I mean, he's just moving. Yeah, he's just moving, just trying to stay out of way. Just keep it and keep me at length. But I kept going, trying, I was more aggressive. And, God, I just, this is great. guys, you'll make me cry. But still making him miss, Ray, you slipped inside the jab there. So, you know, the mind is still strong.

You're slipping inside the jab and still waiting and working for the openings rather than just charging in. And here's a significant moment now, Ray, as you push him around onto the ropes far side of the ring. Here's this glancing right hand that pretty much sets it up. Well, I threw a looping right hand. I threw a couple of those. And when it went there, I had them. I'm telling the referee, come stop the fight. I'm telling him, say, come on, come on, come on.

Yeah, you're firing away now in the in Hearns' own corner. You're firing away. The end must be close now, Ray. I didn't know it, but I know that I had, this was an opportunity and I didn't let go of it. And you're still firing away to the body as well as the head. Last few seconds of the fight, left hook to the body, left took to the chin, and Davy Pearl steps in the referee, wades his arms and your arms are aloft skyward, Ray, and one of the most famous victories in the history of the sport.

is pandemonium in the ring there. So what is going on in your mind? Do you have anything left in your mind or your body to celebrate with? My brother, Roger and Kenny, they picked me up and they held me. But they was cut my win off because I was exhausted. I almost fainted.

Jeez. But Tommy, much respect, much love, Tommy. I mean, it's my friend. Tommy's my friend now. And we brought the best out of each other. Where does that rank, Ray, amongst your career achievements?

One of, if not the, one of the best. It was one of the best. I mean, you know, Duran, but Tommy, Tommy, we were in our, we were in our prime when we fought each other. We were young, strong, talented guys. Tommy was just 22 race, quite staggering. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, and you were 25, yeah. It's staggering how advanced you were in your respective careers. And we're just watching the slow motion replays, Ray, of the last action of the fight, the 14th and ultimately final round. And, you know, it is remembered so fondly, Ray, but I'm wondering here now, as we look on as television viewers, with just a massive people, there must be a hundred people in the ring right now. At what stage does it start to dawn as to what you've done, Ray? That last punch. Mike, that last punch. The last punch.

last punch was this is it. You did it. And when the judge's scorecards were released afterwards, Ray, they still had herons ahead by two rounds, three rounds and four rounds. Is that kind of how it felt? Did you feel in those last few rounds that you were really having to chase the fight? Because there were others at ringside who had you in front. I had to capture that fight. I had to capture those rounds. I had to dominate those rounds. I had to dominate the fight. That was the only way to have beaten a guy of Tommy Heron's caliber. And that instruction that you got, that exhortation from Angelo Dundee, in between the 12th and 13th rounds, how key was that, Ray? I mean, it's, you know, it's been talked of, you know, in boxing history in terms of moments in the corner, alongside Eddie

Futch talking to Joe Frazier in different circumstances in the, or after the 14th round against Muhammad Ali in their third fight. But there are other champions who say that you get to a certain stage of a fight, like the 12th and 13th round of a fight of this magnitude, where it comes down to you. In a sense, doesn't matter what a trainer says. It's all about what you've got left. No, it was what Angelo Dundee said.

It was the perfect soundbite. I'll be redundant with that for the rest of my life. It was what he said, the way he said, and the tone that, used. He wasn't screaming. He was composed. He said, you're blowing it, son, you're blowing it. It clicked. Oh my gosh.

Oh, wow. You know what, Ray, even in the silence, we can sense you taking this in. And I tell what, you won't be the only person listening to this and crying, my friend, I can assure you. There'll be people listening to this, wiping away

tears as they watch it and as they hear your words. Man, you know, this incredible moment one of the best moments in my boxing career and my eye

look at me I mean I'm exhaunt I'm exhawn I can barely answer yeah you're being interviewed in the ring by 30 Pacheco here from the local broadcasters and you're managing to get some answers out Ray but wow it's it's hard to imagine

how exhausted you must be so exhausted. I mean, it's like, like you turn on the fuse or turn it off, you know, I turn it on and didn't want to turn it off. In terms of the aftermath, Ray, what were you feeling physically for a couple of weeks after that fight? Weeks? Well, yeah, weeks. You know, every day or every night that I had to myself, I would wake up and I would wake up and thank God. I always I always prayed before a fight. I never, ever prayed to win.

I prayed no one got hurt. And now all these years later, how many years? What was that? 39. 39. You could call me all that. You had to say that to the public. But Tommy, I mean, I love, again, I love Tommy,

just spoke to Tommy yesterday. and we brought the best out of each other. Yeah, those relationships, friendships, whatever you call them, Ray, they endure after you've been through what you were through on that night. I know you did it again, but it's that one that boxing fans remember.

Yeah, I mean, that's one I remember. But again, they all had their own significance, and that's what it was. From here, Ray, in that first career, the smile on your face is remarkable. taking us all back in time here. You know, we've all got the different experiences of what we were up to at the time. But you had only one more fight after this before retiring for the first time.

You couldn't have thought on that night that you'd fight only a couple of times in the next six years between this and Hagler. No, I mean, now that you brought it up, I mean, it's like, because to think that one more fight than I retire it, which was the most difficult thing to do. And people say, Ray, you have, you know, you have fame,

you have money. At that point in my career, it wasn't about that. It was about my legacy. It was about fighting the best. It was like wanting to fight Hagler before I call it quits. All those things were factors. And it was tough.

I got involved with alcohol and drugs. I was trying to cushion the blows because as much as I had, I had low self-esteem and I was trying to find that that thing that boxing gave me and I couldn't find that but it was all within me. You know what I mean?

I was trying to find that excitement, that challenge that honor to be a world champion to be respected. Guys, that was everything to me. And when I lost that because of the eye injury, I had a partial detached retina. I was lost, man, I was lost.

Ray, were you struggling because the highs were so high since before the Olympics. So you're talking about five years of the most incredible highs. I mean, you know, you were Sugar Ray Leonard, and I heard, and I know this is one of your quotes, you were Sugar Ray Leonard 24-7. I know you loved it at a time, but that's going to take a toll on any man, Ray. Without question. I mean, I'm not ashamed. I'm sorry that it did happen, but it's not I'm not a shame.

In other words, when I found out when I accepted who I was, I mean, yes, it's Sugar Ray Leonard and Ray Leonard the same person. But it's about one being totally respectful and just, you know, thank God for, you know, what has happened to my life and coming out of boxing after 50 years, somewhat unscathed. I mean, and respect it. I try to convey this to my kids, to my kids, you know, to be respected. Respect is everything. You can't buy respect. But fights like this, man, oh my gosh. I love watching them because it was so much more involved than people can imagine.

And we can tell by the reaction, Ray, as to how these highs like this were so difficult to come down from. Because where else could you get that feeling the moment Davy Pearl steps in? Where else can you replicate that feeling of raising your. arms, that moment, where else can you get that? But that's, you know, Mike, that's where I kind of messed up. That's what I, that's when I, the cocaine was, was, was, was right. I thought, alcohol was right. I thought, but you know what, just got to let bygones be bygones.

You just got to accept what has taken place and, and go with it and be human, be nice. And we can tell from your reaction here, Ray, and your commentary, you know, guessing the punches that we're not guessing but forecasting the punches that were coming up. You seem to be much, much happier with it all now. Without question, you know, I lost my dad a year ago, and I thought that when that happened, I would go back to drinking, to drugs, everything. I didn't.

I was stronger. I was more, and that was taking place. My father lived to be 95, and life, life is what you're making. it, you know. And also, I do motivational speaking, which I love. And I use boxing. I use fighting as metaphor. I say, you know what? We get knocked down in life. You need a great corner. You got to believe in yourself because if you don't know what else will, do your version of role work, whatever that may be. And guys, I'm a truly, I'm a blessed man and I want to give back, especially to a sport like boxing, which gave me what I have and what I haven't become.

And what are you watching right now, Ray? What excites you in world boxing at the moment? Who and what excites you? Well, I just love challenges. I just love beating the odds. I love the fact that, you know, there's so much talent out there without naming names. There's so much incredible talent out there. And so don't tell people how great you are.

Only Moham Ali could do that. But don't tell people how great you are. Show them how great you are by being the best out there. You know, there's a quote, Ray, from George Kimball, the guy from Boston who wrote the Four Kings book. And I think it perfectly sums up anybody that watch that fight. Because what George said is, he said, it's not only the best fight I've ever seen.

It was a privilege to have watched it. And I think that word privileged is one that any man, boy, girl, woman that's ever watched that fight needs to use that word privilege. Because it was watching that. It was a privilege. Well, I tell you, again, Tommy and I became friends. We always been friends, but more so than ever before. And there's so much respect for each other.

I liked in the second fight. Tommy won that fight as far as I'm concerned, you know. And I told him that, and I tell him that all often. And he says, well, if that's the case, we need to fight again. I say, excuse me? I'd say excuse me maybe maybe we came with the technology

what are you guys saying? Don't say maybe, don't say maybe we can do technology don't worry Hey that wonderful era of the Four Kings and you know Hagler Leonard, Hearns and Duran

and Ray you were the only one to beat the other three so that's that's some reputation and that is that's some accolade to take into your into your doubtage. You know, Mike, I tell you, and I love Roberto.

I mean, I never thought in a million years I would ever say that, because I just hate that. I used to hate that. I love Alberto. I love Tom. I love Marvin. And I want us to go, I want to go on the road with these guys, you know, all over the world. and just talk about our sale,

talk about what we never talked about, how we felt. So everyone's on board, Duran and Tommy, but I'm trying to get Marvin. I'm trying to convince Marvin. Good luck. But I'm not giving up.

I'm an optimist by nature, so we'll see. Well, if what we've heard tonight is any guide, Ray, then that would be very, very special. It's been a pleasure, right? And can't thank you enough for sparing the time to go back to one of the great nights in your life and your career. It's been a pleasure for us, believe me. Thank you, Mike. It's been a privilege, Ray.

It's been a privilege. Thank you, buddy. You guys, I almost cried, by the way. That's great. Not when I got hit. We could. Beautiful. You got it right in the end, Ray.

Thanks for your time. Thanks. Thanks, guys. God bless. Wow, Steve, the great man has gone. I think he might have enjoyed that more than we did. Well, I tell you what, Mike, that's going some. He loved it.

I was watching his face, and he was moving. You could see him welling up. You could see him. You could hear it in his voice. I know I used that George Kimball quote, Mike, but wasn't it a privilege? It's a privilege to watch the fight again, and your minds plays tricks on you, watch it again,

and you watch it in your stun. 20 minutes I sat in silence after I watched it late. late at night with my headset on. But watching him, watch it, and watching it with him, just a private audience and everybody listening, that was an honour and a privilege. That's one of the best things I've done in 35 years working in the boxing media. I've got to tell you, Mike, that was sensational.

At times he was just almost impetuous in wanting to get in and talk about the shots and describing punches that were coming, three and four seconds before they actually landed. It was absolutely staggering. And Mike, intricate punches, not I'm going to land a big right hand here. He'd say this is a nice little short right hand. And the left hooks to the body, I mean, I'd forgotten how many times he threw punches to the body.

I'm not being an after time, I'm going to hold my hands up. They were set this incredible amount of body shots. But then there was also Mike, and you know this, you know, you're the killer broadcast, you're the Supreme Broadcaster. Sometimes one second, a one second silence, perfect. placed is incredible. He was dropping those one and two second silences. Neither of us were talking because we knew he was still communicating. That was genius. That was class. And I'm going to use that word again. Anybody who's listened to this for the last 45, 50 minutes, it's been a privilege for you.

I'm telling you it has. Hey, Steve, those two young lads, you at the Fitzroy Lodge Gym in 1981 in South East London, me at the Lim, me at the Lin, gym not so far away. If you told us that in nearly 40 years time, we'd be sitting having a conversation. We might as well have poured a beer. It was so comfortable. We'll be having a conversation with Sugar Ray Leonard about this very fight. You'd have laughed me out of the place. You know, it's one thing bumping into your stars when you're on the road, you know, your heroes when you're young. It's one thing bumping into them and maybe shaking their hand or even sitting down for a communal interview, even a one-on-one interview. But what

we've created here goes beyond anything like that. It just takes everything, every sort of interview format to a different level and seeing his face, seeing him react. And it's beyond fantasy, really, Mike, as you say, for us, a couple of teenage kids at the time to be here watching it with him. It's beyond fantasy, because you can't invent things you can't imagine. I mean, That's not, I mean, it's beyond imagination. We're in fantasy land, Mike. We're sitting here now, in lockdown, in fantasy land. And just to wrap up then, Steve, I was on a broadcast with Maricio Suleiman, the WBC president, a few nights ago.

And we were talking about our great fights of all time. And I said high waiver between two, this one that we've just seen, and the thriller in Manila, the third fight between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, which had had had. happened half a dozen years before this fight. But I often say, and I mentioned it there to Sugar Ray Leonard about, I can't remember in my entire lifetime an occasion when there was that much skill and pedigree and class and courage in the same ring for the same championship fight. Well, the fellow in Manila was the great fight it was because it was two men who had managed

to engineer themselves into a situation where they would just hit each other. until one of them was close to death. Neither of them were at their peaks. It doesn't take away from that being one of the most draining and most spectacular fights of all time. But we've got two kids here, just one defeat between them. One of them's 22 years of age. The other one's 25, not a big 25.

So when you look at that peak v. Peak, Mike, and you see what they did the year before in the different fights and what they would continue doing in the next two or three years or certainly Hearns, it's, you know, I'm going to, I mean, I'm tempted to go with Kimball to say it was the best fight I was ever privileged to watch. And I can't even get my head around being ringside. And one thing I would have done at ringside, Mike, if I had I been there, is I would have looked around. So I wanted to see the look on Sugar Ray Robinson's face when that fight was finished. I know to look on Ali's face.

I've seen it. But Sugar Ray Robinson was somewhere there, three or four rows back. I'd love to just caught a glimpse of what sugar. was thinking about sugar on that glorious Wednesday night, outdoors, and it was hot, baby, in Las Vegas. What a night, what a fight. What a great start to this series, Steve, and I'm going to get Jack, a young producer, to cut this out. But surely from here the only way is down.

Well, listen, be positive. We could top it. You've got to think positively. You've got to take on some sugar rail and motivational force somewhere. And he would say, as good as it was, we can do better boys we can do better i'm not sure how but you know what let's give it a go anyway we can and we will we'll be revisiting some of the other great nights in the history of our sport across this series so do join us for the next one in this series within a series on five live boxing

with costello and bans thanks for being with us and thanks of course to the legend that is sugar ray leonard costello and bunce's greatest fights the best b2 b marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get two

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