5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - The Thrilla in Manila (Ali v Frazier 3) with Gene Kilroy

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier fought to a standstill in their final contest back in 1975, in what has become along with 'The Rumble in the Jungle' one of the defining fights in the history of 'The Greatest'. One of the last surviving members of Ali's inner circle, his business manager and confidante Gene Kilroy, joins Mike Costello and Steve Bunce to remember the build up, the night, and the legacy left by Ali.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Costello and Bunce's greatest fights. And welcome for the last time to our greatest fight series on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunths. And for this, the 10th and final episode, we focus on a contest which in terms of the magnitude of the two men involved, the truly global appeal of the showdown and the way it turned out, has to be, Steve. close to the number one, the greatest fight of all time. The thriller in Manila, October 1975. Have you ever read anybody that was ringside

who said it wasn't the greatest fight they ever attended? Who said it wasn't a privilege? Muhammad Ali was 33, Joe Frazier was 31. A year earlier, Ali had performed magic at the Rumble in the Jungle to beat Foreman, thrown in against Frazier again. And you know what, Mike, and this is not being an after-timer.

there was genuine in an addition to the anticipation. There was a great sense of fear before that first bell in Manila. And this was in the era, the golden era of heavyweights of Ali, of Frazier, of George Foreman and of Ken Norton as well. And as far as Ali was concerned, this was the third time he'd faced Frazier, Steve. And we're talking about the extension here of one of the great rivalries in the history of sport. For me, it is the greatest, most compelling rivalry in the history of sport. Soon after this, I'd become captivated by Björg against John McEnroe in middle distance running. It was Sebastian Coe against Steve Ovet.

But nothing matched what was involved in the rivalry between Ali and Frazier. And just as those other two pairings would say, Arlie dragged the best from Frazier. Frazier dragged the best from Arly. and you can mount a persuasive argument, as some have done, that they would not have been the great fighters that they were without the presence of each other. Two men both made and broke each other. They were, they just formed a bit of crazy alchemy, Mike,

where they pushed each other to places they couldn't possibly go. And they couldn't push, they couldn't go to those places with other opponents. We've seen that. They share opponents and they have vastly different results against those opponents, but put them together. And that's why this fight was quite scary. And let's get that right. If you read some of the previews, the contemporary previews,

the guys that were out there, the guys that were in Manila, there is this sense of fear, because let's get this right, no one really knew how much damage they could do to each other. And how much damage they had done to each other and had suffered in other fights. because you had this great series of contests between Ali and Frazier and Foreman and Norton, where they were beating each other. You know, Ken Norton had beaten Ali by the time we get to Manila,

and Joe Frazier had beaten Arle by the time we get to Manila. But Ali had beaten Foreman, who'd beaten Frasier? We can talk about this later on, and we will do. But that was what added to the glorious uncertainty of this night. We didn't know how much either of them had left, so much so that if you read some of those previews that you're talking, about Steve, there was another fear and that was that the fight would be a damn squib that these two men were so shot. I mean, Arlie had had three fights since the Rumble in the jungle, which was only

11 months previously. He'd fought Chuck Wechner, Ron Lyle and Britain's Joe Buggner, 41 rounds in the 11 months since he beat George Foreman to regain the world heavyweight title. This was a mad, mad era of boxing. And not just 41 rounds, might. Okay, the Weptor fight was the fun fight. It led to Rocky. We know that. And it was a stoppage. Very late in the fight in the 15th round where he gets dropped when Weptner both stands on his foot and punches him. So that's neither here, not there. Forget that one. But the Lyle fight, which only stops Lyle, but it's still a really hard fight. But the one that's interesting is the Bougna fight. Everybody dismisses the Bougna fight because the British boxing press for some reason hated Bougna. There was this whole thing about Bougna being some kind of

clown not being a great fight, not being a danger. Ali was Bugner's absolute number one fan. And what's really interested about that fight is Ali ends up in hospital after that fight, Mike. You remember that? Because he's so exhausted. He's in hospital. In fact, the man we're going to hear from later on as the man that arranged it, he's in hospital on drips. He's so absolutely exhausted. They announce the thriller in Manila the next day. Well, if you look at the time plan, the time scheme, I know they fought a lot back then, but he's gone from a hospital bed. to an intensive training camp in about two or three weeks. Think about it.

The man was pushing his body beyond limits, beyond limits. And then if you look at Frazier's recent fights since losing to Foreman, there's no easy fights in there, Mike. He doesn't get any gimmies. In fact, that's what's missing throughout the 70s heavyweights. None of them, whether it's Ernie Shavers, Ken Norton, the early Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, no matter who it is.

Go and have look at their 70s heavyweight. records. There's no one on there who's a nobody. Each and every fight these guys had, Ali and Frasier, even if it wasn't against each other, they were eating away at that very core of their boxing soles. And the man who's going to guide us through the action on this particular show, Steve, and we're going to focus on rounds 1, 6, 7 and 8, and 13 and 14. But we'll give you a reminder and key markers as we go through is Gene Kilroy, who was present on all of those big nights and in the buildup was so important to Ali in so many ways, was described as his business advisor, has been described as one of his greatest friends, but was so much more than that,

Steve, was so pivotal, so central to the Muhammad Ali story. He was not just close. He wasn't part of the entourage. He was in that inner, inner, inner tight circle. He's the last man standing in many ways. I know Arakman Ali's still living. In fact, Gene helps with his care. He's not doing as well as he should have been, as he should be. You and I met with him 20 or years ago, nearly 20 years ago. I got some lovely pictures of you and I with him outside there at their original house in Louisville, Mike. Gene is the last man standing and he helped, you know, I don't mind embarrassing him. He helped bury just about everybody other than Dundee.

He paid for so many funerals. He's paid for so much help and care along the way. And sometimes we get a bit of stick for mentioning Gene Kilroy. And I think the reason for that is that in so many, of the Ali books and the Ali movie, Gene's written out. Gene's been basically vanished. He's been made transparent. The only problem is with making him transparent if you don't like him, if he refused you an interview, if you're a biographer. The only problem with that, Mike, is that there's all of this stuff called film and there's all of these things called photographs.

And there's Gene Kuroi, in every single damn one of them, right next to Ali and all these pivotal moments in both Ali's history, American cultural and sporting history, and more than that boxing history. You can't vanish a man, especially a man in a safari suit with a massive perm, although he denies he ever had a perm. He said it was natural. Gene Quarry was there. He carried the coffins at both Arles's mother and father's funerals, and his credentials are impeccable. Plus, he put in place financial safety nets that were held. helping Ali right up until the point of his death, Mike. That was his role, one of his roles. The facilitator, the fixer, the business manager, but more than that, the friend.

So Gene is the man to guide us through the action of the thriller in Manila, October 1st of 1975. But we're doing this one, Steve, in a slightly different fashion to the nine previous episodes of our greatest fight series because logistics and technology have got in the way. and we had a bit of fun getting through to Gene in the first place. Hey, Gene. Yeah. Hey, Gene. Steve Bunn's calling. Call me on my home phone.

Okay, Gene. Sorry, mate. I'll call you back on the home phone. Thanks for that, Gene. Thank you. We're right back. Hi, Gene. Steve Bunce again.

Sorry about that, Gene. No problem. Been waiting on your call. Thanks. I've got Mike Costello from the BBC with me who's done so much stuff. You were in the past. Good guys. Great.

to talk to you, Gene. Okay, Mike. Gene, it's a pleasure. We've done so much great work down the years, and I can't thank you enough, and I have done time and again. Our first interview was in a wedding chapel

in the MGM Grand Hotel. That was the control over the hotel you had. But look, we're talking tonight about Ali Frazier, the third fight, the thriller in Manila. When that's mentioned to you, Gene, what's the first memory that comes to you? You know, with Joe Frazier and Ali.

and then Joe would tell me a guerrilla, and I said he was just trying to sell tickets, and Joe would say, how would you like your kids going to school and being called a gorilla? I said, well, you're right, Joe. And someday we're going to sit down in the park and have a big conversation,

which it never came, but I was responsible for bringing Ali to Joe Fraser's funeral services in Philadelphia. but getting back to the fight that they're in Medila I said when you fight Joe Fraser you don't have to look for him he's always going to be on the end of your

boxing gloves he'll always be there and he said you're right and then he told me he said it's unbelievable that I could whip Foreman every day of the week and Foreman could beat Fraser every day of the week and Frasier would give me hard times.

He said, they're different, outs for different fights. But as I witnessed that fight in Manila, I knew that Ali was in top, top shape. People ask me, what was Ali's best fight? And I look at Ali when you eat with him and you travel with him. I was with him when he was fighting,

when he wasn't fighting. I was one of the closest guys to him, myself and his brother. To me, he was family he was a friend he was a buddy and and you see a guy get hit and you you feel the punches so you see that stuff going on in there and you just it makes it makes you want to think but many times people have asked me what was all these best fight the second fraser fight where we stayed at the essex house in new york city we got up in the morning we walked down

7th Avenue to Madison Square Garden. He had his suit on. Everybody was yelling. We were going to the press conference at noon, and we left about 9.30 to get there. He looked sharp, no bruises. To me, that was his best fight, where he wasn't heard or bruised or sore.

But the toughest fight, the toughest heavyweight fight ever, or may go down in boxing history as the toughest boxing match ever, you have to rule it, the Ali Fraser 3 in Manila. Gene, just tell us a bit about the training camp before the fight in Manila. Well, Muhammad had a certain way.

All his fights, no matter who he fought, he was 10% better. And he told me one time, if you fight a Henry Cooper, you train one way, your Fraser, another way, form it another way. way, listen, Jerry Quarry, everyone you train different. And he, when you look back at Muhammad Ali, in the four posts, there wasn't a smarter

fighter than Ali. I don't care what they say, where they say it, but that, that is a truth. And he, he did his own training. He knew what he had to do. He did his exercises, running, his sparring. Unbelievable. I tell the young fighters today, he would come in, he would run in the morning three miles and then do his shadow boxing. He'd get up at about four o'clock and it would be him and I out and come back.

And then he, Seria would put him through the exercises. And then he would go have breakfast. And I would have his opponents who we was fighting and he would study their fights. We'd go in his little arc cab and he'd studied them and all. And then when it came time to work out in the afternoon, when he came in to the afternoon, when he came in to gym. First he would do the speed bag. He'd do three on the speed bag. Then he would do three on the rope. Then he would go three on the heavy bag. And then he would spar six rounds or eight rounds. But the last thing he did, he went in to spar when he was tired. So he told me the night of the

fight, I'm sporing when I'm tired. But the night of the fight, I'm fresh mentally and physically. And I tell young fighters today, they do everything different. They spar first because they want to look good in front of people or show their sparm partners how tough they are. But Ali did everything different. That was his own. And he learned that from Kasimata. Just taking you back to the situation around the fight, Gene,

before the first bell rang, how did it come to be in Manila, in the Philippines, in the first place? You've told us a story in the past about Zaire, Africa, for the Rumble in the Jungle. How did this come to be in the Philippines? Well, Averham was a promoter, and Marcos wanted to create a lot of tourism over there, President Marcos. So he decided to have the fight over there.

And that's what brought that over there. I mean, we fought in the Aronata Coliseum, and there was no air condition. And it was so hot that night with the lights and everything. And I made sure we had enough of ice in our corner to keep all eat going. You know, it was just unbelievable. The pillars in the arena was sweating. It was so hot.

And because of the need to suit American television schedules, Gene, this took place at like 10, 45, 11 o'clock in the morning in the Philippines. Is that right? Right. It sure did. The time difference, because the big thing about fighting, You know, at that time it was closed circuit. And now everything is paid per view. So they had it in theaters and arenas. Could you imagine today if that fight was going on,

what it would sell on pay-per-view? It would set records, Gene. It would set records. Gene, I've got to ask you a question, and I've never done this when I've been out there with you, but I've got to ask you because her name comes up anywhere. Tell me the story of Veronica Pookeye. Porsche's involvement in the build-up to this fire,

and particularly that meeting at the presidential palace, where Marcos is meant to have said those things to Ali about Veronica. Give me your version of it, Gene. Come on, please. Well, he and his wife, Belinda, it was over. It was over. And he and Veronica were very close. She was with him at the training camp in Deer Lake.

And then he came over to Manila. And we went to meet the president, Marcos, and his wife. And he brought his wife with him. And Angelo Dundee invited some sports writer. And at that time, we kind of, everything hid out. You know, we didn't go out publicly. They weren't seen in public or any of that stuff, you know. And she always, was she low-profiled everything.

She was a good person, Veronica. then when he went to meet the president, Ali was proud to be with her, a beautiful lady like her. And we went there and he introduced her to Marcos and his wife as this is my wife. And one of the writers wrote it and then

all hell broke loose, you know, because still he hadn't divorced, but they separated. He didn't divorce Belinda and they haven't, they were just separated. But then in the buildup to the fight, very close to the fight, I always thought that Belinda,

arrived in Manila and just had a confrontation with Ali and left. Is that true story, Gene? For one day, raised Hill and departed. You know, she just made a scene, you know. But it didn't bother Ali, nothing bothered him. He was more worried about Fraser than he was Belinda or anything else.

Gene Keroy there, Steve, setting the scene for us of that night in Manila, October the 1st, 1975. He mentioned Bob Aaron being one of the promoters. Of course, Don King was involved as well, the two greatest promoters of all time. That gives you an idea of just how big an event this was. But he was talking there about this situation around Veronica Porch,

who became soon afterwards Muhammad Ali's third wife, Belinda Ali, now Kalila Ali, was his second wife. And that was a huge issue at the time, Steve. I mean, that was making front page news on newspapers. I've looked into archive reports of newspapers in this country and in the United States. And because of the magnitude of the fight of the two men involved, This became a huge story.

And there were concerns around that time reading these archive reports that Arleigh would be affected on fight night. But then I've read other reports, Steve, and these are aftertimers. But there's a sense to it that maybe the distractions actually helped him. He was that kind of character. You know, there's a great quote. And it's something like Ali love women and women loved Ali. And I don't think there's anyone going to dispute that. And I know from talking to Jean and talking to Angelo Dundee that people tended to, you know,

turn away, ignore certain things. It's certainly having women near in camp, near fights, after fight, certainly was part of his training camp, certainly was part of what kept him calm. The whole Veronica Porsche situation, the reason why I think this became such an enormous story was because all people ever talk about and write about is how stunning she was, how regal she was, how beautiful she was. She's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. That's what Jean Kureway said to Ali, 13 months earlier when he was.

He spotted her a beauty contest to try and find poster women, poster girls, for the forthcoming Rumble in the jungle between Ali and Frazier. They read a beauty pageant. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? So it goes on from there. They become friends in Zaire. They continue this open relationship for an awful long time. Meanwhile, Belinda's at home with four kids, including twins.

And I think she's turning a blind eye to it. She's not quite sure what she's meant to do. She's not quite sure whether she's meant to do. to talk to the press in the build-up to this fight when it's dead. Then suddenly the story comes out. I think it was a guy that has gone out there as a feature writer, a colour writer, to do a big spread. He writes in a magazine that they're at the palace. And one of the things that Marcos says to Ali is, your wife is very beautiful.

And Ali says, yes, she is. She gets wind of this because it's written in the paper. No doubt people are calling her up. She hires some serious bodyguards. She flies out on a plane. She refuses anybody's help at the airport. She says, you're all with him. She goes to the hotel lobby.

Everyone's waiting. This is what I love. You know this story, Mike? All the British press, all the American press, all the Germans, the Swedes, the Poles. There's hundreds of press. There's like 600 press in Manila. And they're a bit bored, you know, to be honest. It's hot.

It's sweaty. Ali's giving them good stuff. It's only so much you can write. And suddenly, word spreads through the press village that Belinda's come into town. Wow, you can imagine what happens. It's quite incredible. Because bear in mind, she'd already taken a swing at Veronica Porn. in Kuala Lumpur before the Bognify

where she'd whacked Ali and given him a graze over his eye. So everyone goes to the lobby at a hotel. She walks in surrounded by these guys, her beef cake security. And she walks, she ignores everybody, goes straight to the lift, goes up to the room, gets rid of everybody in the room except for her and Ali, trashes the room, throws every single thing at him,

including the championship elite inner circle ring. She throws everything at him, leaves, goes back downstairs, collects the security, Guards, gets back in a car, goes to the airport, and returns to Los Angeles on the same plane. And this was a time, Steve, when the World Heavyweight title was truly a world affair, because in the first half of the 70s, it had been taken to Kingston in Jamaica, to Caracas in Venezuela, to Kinshasa in Zaire, the Rumble in the Jungle, of course. And Ali's most recent fight before the thriller was in Kuala Lumpur, as we've said and heard,

against Joe Buggner. So here we came to the Philippines, to... Manila and another one of the, if you like, the narratives in the build-up to the contest was the fear about the heat in the arena because they were being promised the two camps that the air conditioning would suffice but there were other reports from people who knew the arena and had been in the arena when they'd been decent sized crowds and there'd be anywhere between 25,000 and 27,000 depending on which reports you read for Ali against Frazier and the the heat inside the auditorium became a serious factor in the end.

Well, you heard Gene there talking about the pillars were actually sweating. And I know exactly what he means. You know, I've been in buildings where it looks like the walls are beginning to sweat from the condensation and the lack of air conditioning. The only thing to be said about the heat, it was the same for the pair of them. They both knew what was going to happen. And as Gene said, he made sure they had enough ice so they could douse Arleigh down continually. I mean, if people often wonder, why they throwing so much ice on them? Why they're covering them in so much water?

They're trying to bring his entire body temperature down. It's that simple. And when you watch the fight with us today, you'll notice one thing about Ali. His shorts weigh about the same as a cherry. He's got really, really small satin. You can see the satin shorts. And that's why guys wore shorts like that in 15-round fights when they were fighting in that sort of heat.

because at the end, all they're going to weigh is a couple of pounds of sweat. Those are enormous modern shorts, and I use that in quote marks. Those are enormous modern shorts. They're coming out of that ring weighing about five or six kilos. Also, Mike, if you think about it, after the weighing, Arlie then gains a couple of pounds. He's going to lose. What's he going to lose in this fight? Unfortunately, we can't ask you.

What do you think he lost in this fight? Stone? I would say so. Anywhere between 10 and 14 pounds. No question about it. Absolutely. Now, the thing was, if he knew that was going to happen, he'd already had the fight in Kuala Lumpur against Joe Bougna,

which was hell for the pair of them, even if it wasn't the greatest fight in heavyweight history. It was hell for the pair of them. Forty-five minutes in that heat. Joe Bougna had to sit in a standing-in-a-swind for hours to let his body cool down, and his body was in the state. But more than that, he had to spend time in hospital, Ali, being re-hydrated, something that Gene, as I said, had set in place.

So in many ways, Ali had been in the hell he was about to enter again. They both knew the dangers of fighting in that heat. I mean, I thought of God knows you, if this fight was taking place somewhere under similar circumstances, no air condition and that sort of heat, we'd have a 10-minute break after six rounds. We'd have a 15-minute break after six rounds.

I'm sure we would. Hey-ho. Well, let's go back in time to October 1, 1975 in Manila, in the Philippines, Steve, and we're going to take into account, as I say, the first round, then we're going to move on to rounds six, seven and eight, and 13 and 14. And for those of you who are watching along with us, if you could get one of the newer versions of the replay of the fight, which include a ringside clock by the side of the screen,

then that will greatly enhance the enjoyment as you follow us through the course of these six rounds of a truly special fight, Steve. So we're going to the Philippines. It's Wednesday morning, still Tuesday evening in the United States, as Jean was explaining, because of the 12-hour time difference between Manila and the East Coast of the United States. We're going to watch a couple of minutes of the build-up, but we will give you plenty of warning as to when the first bell sounds so that you can follow us along. But the pre-fight situation in the centre of the ring was Ali at his play-acting best.

President Marcos of the Philippines had donated a trophy to be won. by Fraser or Ali, placed it in the centre of the ring at the beginning of the pre-fight formalities in the introductions. And Ali went to the centre of the ring, grabbed it and took it back to his own corner. And it's interesting as well, Steve, that we're going back to an era where the gloves are put on in the ring. The two men walk to the ring, clad in bandages, handwraps, but the gloves were actually put on them in the ring. Yeah, I was just noticing that, because the first time I'd noticed that, because I don't think I've ever seen this intro here, in the one we're watching, because you've got a man from Joe Frazier's corner watching Dundee do the gloves.

And then you got 30 Pacheco watching Eddie Futch in Frazier's corner, put the gloves on and quite invasive as well, quite close. Wallywai just come over to have a check. You know, that's really intriguing and interesting that because the ritual of having your gloves put on, even though you've got someone from the bald supervisor, no matter where you are in the world, and even though you've invariably got someone from the other corner,

the other camp watching you, that's a kind of personal thing. That was ridiculous. It was just like business. Ali sticks his hand out, gets his gloves on whilst his mug into the crowd. You've got to love that. And the introductions being made now in the centre of the ring by the local MC. Joe Frazier in the corner on the far side of the ring as we look on. Ali closest to us in this particular recording of the fight.

Ali was 33 years of age at the time. As I said earlier, this was his 51st professional contest. He had two defeats and 48 wins. The two defeats were against Joe. Frazier in their unforgettable fight of the century at Madison Square Garden in 1971 and then he was beaten on points in a close one by Ken Norton two years later but he'd avenged both of those defeats Joe Frazier was two years younger 31 years of age he too had lost twice he'd lost to Foreman in Kingston in 1973 to lose the

title that he'd won against Muhammad Ali and then both defeats were avenged by Ali, but the defeats of Joe Frazier remained as a blemish on his record. He was beaten by Ali also in the rematch of their fight of the century. That came in 1974, about 18 months or so before this particular contest. It's interesting as we watch Mohamed Ali being introduced, Steve. There are some booze that ring around the arena and he pretends to be tearful as he turns to the crowd. And it's just Ali on one of the biggest nights of his life, still finding time to play the comic. You know what, Mike? You'd think he was going in against Coopmans or Lubbers or Wepner, one of the guys he brushed away in various defences where, you know, he'd laugh and joke with people

at ringside. I'm quite, if you'd have shown me just those clips of him laughing and joking there, I would never have guessed. That was before the thriller. This is Ali at his best. And you can imagine the tension at ringside, Steve, as they come to the center of the ring and to hear the final instructions from the referee, it's a local referee who I have to say did a terrific job, Carlos Padilla, in keeping control of the contest. In particular, very early on, Steve, he made sure that Ali wasn't allowed to hold Frazier around the back of the neck because the Frazier camp said that Ali was allowed to get away with that in the second fight, the fight that Ali won. So we're coming here to the thriller in Manila. The third contest between two of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

Frazier wins the first one on points at Madison Square Garden in 1971. Then at the same venue Madison Square Garden in 1974, over 12 rounds in what wasn't a world title fight, Ali gains his revenge. So this is the third contest. Everyone now has left the ring. And the bell sounds for the first round of one of the most eagerly awaited contests in the history of the heavyweight division. And Frazier bobbing and weaving immediately, Steve, he's the first to throw. He throws a jab towards the body. of Ali, but Ali at this stage is not exactly up on his toes, but keen to keep it at range in the

first half a minute of the contest. No, he's not up in his toes at all really, Mike. You know, he's moving, he's moving well, but he's not, he's not floating, he's not, he's not dancing. His hands are extremely high and extremely tight, tight to his body. It's almost like he just wants to get through the first minute here. First minute, not going to do anything until he sees the gap. And when, and he sets that pattern for that right hand. It's a really big. right hand and he throws that same right hand all fight it's not a touch shot it's a full shot because he's always looking as he does throughout the fight for the right hand to be followed by a left hook yeah we've seen the first minute of the opening round and ali has had some success catching frazier on the way

in with a lovely clipping left hook and then following up or sometimes preceding it with a right hand he tried the copybook left right there stephen phraseer just swayed underneath but again the straight right from Ali did land. That was a key punch for him throughout this contest. Indeed, throughout their rivalry. But I think it's fascinating already, Steve, that you're seeing the two men almost in an extension of the two previous fights we saw.

Certainly the first one. The second fight involved a lot of clinching and holding from Ali. But in the first fight, then this just seems like it's round 16 carrying on from that fight. Yeah, I mean, already, you know, 90 seconds into the fight, you know, we're going down here, coming down here towards the last minute. But after 90 seconds, Frazier's already getting close enough to sink in, not one, not two,

but two and three body shots. He's already sinking in body shots. And one thing about this fight, Mike, I know we've got plenty of rounds to go, but let's get this in now, is they seldom waste a punch. They seldom waste a punch, especially Frazier, especially Frazier. You're watching now, he's playing, he's got Ali back on the ropes, he's touching gloves, and then he's letting his hands go. Everything.

He's thinking about every single shot. 45 seconds to go in the first round and Ali had his back to the ropes and swings around now, comes back to the center of the ring. And I love to watch the way Ali changes the nature of his punches. He throws at long range when he needs to.

But then when Frazier crowds him in close, he's plenty capable of throwing, clipping short shots himself and making punching room for himself. But Frazier, likewise, he's landing from long range, just got through with a jab. But as we come towards the end of round,

now it's Ali who gets on the front foot, drives Frazier back against the ropes, 15 seconds or so to go in the opening round. And Ali's opening up again with those left-right combinations. But as soon as he's thrown them, then Frazier responds with a jab-come hook of his own. So the pattern is well and truly established across the first three minutes, Steve. And Frazier catches him with a couple of good rights in that last 30 seconds. I think the first round's unbelievable. I think it's one of the great neglected rounds in heavyweight history.

I think the last 30 seconds, that first round might be the best last 30 seconds in any first round, in any heavyweight fight. Those exchanges look like something from the last seconds of the 12th or the last seconds in the old days of the 15th, Mike. He gets caught clearly, Ali, with a right hand over the top, and Frazier switches it up.

The replays we're seeing now is of Frazier coming and walking on to a left hook as he leans down to throw his own left underneath Arlie's right. That was such a quality and neglected and forgotten round, Mike. The first round of how many, everyone at ringside was wondering, could it continue at that pace in those particular conditions? Some said at ringside it was anywhere between 110 degrees and 120 degrees because of the faulty air conditioning. As Steve said, you heard Gene Kilroy earlier on talking about how even the pillars

in the Araneta Coliseum were sweating. We're going to move on now, as we said, to round number six. The bell has just sounded for the start of round number six if you're following us along here. And there's a key exchange in this round. If you keep watching for one particular exchange in Ali's corner where Ali lands a solid shot and the gum shield leads the mouth of Frazy. But Fraser it is in the early stages. He's on the front foot once again. And he's pounding away towards the body.

And I thought it was interesting, Steve, watching this, and I did so rewatching immediately after rewatching the rumble in the jungle and how Joe Frazier was so much more clinical with his body punching. George Foreman was very loose. His punches came through wide arcs, whereas Frazier here is much more efficient with those punches to the body and much more effective,

even at this stage of the contest. And we've had, remember, over in a 15 round contest, we're now moving into the second third of the contest. This is the sixth round. We've had a minute of it. Well, the foreman from the rumming in the jungle

was the foreman that had destroyed everybody. So all foreman needed to do is get his left foot forward. And they throw enough punches, hit you anywhere above the hips, and you were going to go over because that's what had happened. So he didn't have to put any brain, any fault, any imagination behind his punches, George, at that time. That's why Ali could do the rope-a-dope-dough.

When he's tried rope-a-dope here, it's not really work because Frasier won't let his hands go aimlessly. And in fact, this is the sixth, Mike, but I thought Fraser had a really good fifth, and I think he picks up from where he was in the previous round. And you can see now, he's got Arlie backed up now. It's 90 seconds into the fire. He's touching, touching, then he lets shots go. He stepped back there and throw a great left hook. It just missed.

he's really working brilliantly inside Frazier. I think he's working brilliantly inside. So efficient on the inside, but he has lost his gum shield. A clipping left hook from Ali landed at around one minute and 40 seconds to go. If any of you want to spool back, you'll see the gum shield leaving the mouth of Frazier,

but he's very much in the ascendancy here. This is a good round for Frazier. And Ali had controlled pretty much the first five rounds until that segment that you talk about, Steve. But Frazier very much getting back at him now and lands a terrific left hook. and forces Ali back onto the ropes. Ali is still throwing the long jab and the long left hook as well

with 40 seconds to go in round six and Fraser is still pounding away to the body, still making room for those shots that eventually will surely tell on Ali. They come back to the centre of the ring, half a minute to go in round 60. Some of those punts is there, Mike, you're thinking, how's he taking these? How's he taking these for six rounds? Even in rounds that Ali is winning, you know, just nicking some of the earlier rounds.

because I think there's a lot of these rounds are really close going into this here to six. These are really good shots that he's ripping in. And Ali, when he lets that right hand go from the ropes, Mike, he's letting that go full blast. He does not a lot of touching. The jab might be a touch, but then he does that thing where he swings slightly, swiveles slightly, so he turns the jab into a hook. Everything's been thrown with intent since the very first round.

End of the sixth round. The two men go back to their respective corners and two brilliant left hooks landed by Joe Frazy. in that particular round. And if I were commentating at the time, Steve, I'd be wondering whether he was getting through to Ali because in the last 30 seconds or so of that fight, Ali did look desperately tired.

But this is where we can lean on the insight and the expertise of Gene Kilroy, who was in the corner as Ali went back there and told us about the mouthpiece leaving the mouth of Joe Frazier. Well, the guy ran back with the mouthpiece to Ali's corner. And Bodini said, throw that away. And Ali yelled at Bodini, take it over them.

Make sure he has a mouthpiece. But I always made sure in our corner we had two or three different mouthpieces. But they only had the one in Joe's corner. And they took the mouthpiece over there. But Ali was a great human being, a great humanitarian. He always had time for the poor, the powerless, depressed, deprived. And he wanted to do things the right way. He didn't want to take any short cuts to win a fight.

So six rounds in, Gene Kiroi, the man who retrieved Joe Frazier's gum shield and returned it to the corner headed by Eddie Futch. And we're moving into very shortly, Steve, round number seven. The bell is about to sound for round number seven. And here we will see Ali, who looks so desperately tired at the end of the sixth round, up on his toes for the first time since the opening round. He's deciding to now try and put distance between himself and Frasie. Can he win this fight at long range?

He's been losing out at close range for the previous two rounds. And now he's up on his toes. And this is like the Ali of Prime. But Frazier does get through with a big right hand over the top inside the first 25 seconds of this seventh round. But now Ali comes back with a brilliant left-right combination once again, still dancing, still clipping Frazier on the way in with a left hook as we move into the second half a minute of round seven.

When he's clipping him with those shots, Mike, when he's setting him up with the touch jabs. You saw it just at that point I said there. That was exactly 45 seconds in. He touches him with a little jab. Then he throws a right hand like he's trying to take him out. And bear in mind, this is a 15-round fight. We are not even halfway through this fight yet.

We're a minute into the 7th, and we are not even close to halfway through this fight. And as for Ali's dancing in this fight, I'm not quite sure if it improves his chances of improves his chances of not being here because it still seems to me that Frazier's got his number even with a looping right hands over the top. He's got his number.

Frazier had Ali's number. Wait for it. Ali had Frazier's number. Halfway stage of round number seven, but Ali has been landing some very crisp long range shots. The left-right copy book combination has been so successful even in this round. And I think we're seeing, Steve,

some of what made Ali so special here because he did look so tired in the sixth round and yet he's come out in this seventh round. And yes, Frazier is getting through, but Arlie at this stage, with just over a minute to go, is landing the cleaner, heavier punches as Frazier drives him back to the ropes on the far side of the ring.

Another left-right combination from Ali, that almost signature combination with a minute to go in round number seven. And the consensus at ring side reading back, Steve, was that at this stage into round seven with six completed rounds, it was pretty much three apiece or maybe Arlie leading by,

four rounds to two. But there was a general consensus that there was very much all still to play for here with more than half the fight potentially still to go. When Ali flicks and really moves, Mike, that's fine. Frasier can't get to him. But there's no way in a fight like this. You're going to be able to do that. Even though Frasier appears to be in front of him, lurching forward, seems to be, as Gene said earlier in the pod, as Gene said, he's there. You won't have to find him. Just because a man's there. and you won't have to struggle to find him. Doesn't mean you're just going to be able to hit him and he's not going to be able to hit you.

Because guess what? If you can hit him, he can hit you. And that's what Fraser's trading on here. It's a massive risk. Some of the shots, though, that he's taking, Mike. He just took a right upper cut there, flush shot. You saw his neck go back. His vast, enormous neck,

which sometimes seems like he's joined directly to his shoulders. That's a gruesome, gruesome round that seventh, Mike. It was. And right at the end, you know, was a microcosm of much of the contest as a whole because Frazier takes that right upper cup from Ali but just before that he himself had landed a crunching left hook and watching as we do now at the end of the seventh round Steve it's the minutes rest between rounds seven and eight and we'll continue into round eight you look at Frazier style here and one of the if you like the all-time

fantasy fights in any weight division that you hear often mentioned is Muhammad Ali against Mike Who would have won between Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson? And you look at what phrase is doing here. And you get the sense that that's exactly what Mike Tyson would be doing against Ali. And maybe the same sort of fights would unfold as we come to the bell at the start of the eighth round. And I think the first minute here, Steve, sums up the rivalry, the great compelling rivalry between these two men. The way they go at it in the first minute of this round. and we're only just moving into the second half of the contest, I think, just says so much about them.

And this is why these two men and this era is remembered so fondly. Arleigh lands with a left hook, then a right hand, another left hook. Frazier still swaying, lands a left hook of his own. And this is how it goes on, Steve, right throughout the first minute of this, the eighth round. The two of them are just trading shots on the ropes with Arleigh, his back across the ropes. And Frazier trying to pin him there, and the two men are just punching away here with tariff. Horrific quality and great punch resistance. Amazing resilience. And Mike, the point is here, and I know that you're desperate to make it, is this right now, this moment here, it isn't even halfway through this fight.

We're still 30 seconds away from it being halfway officially through this fight. This opening 90 seconds of this eighth round is something that's quite incredible. And there's a quote from someone, one of the great writers, it says, they were fighting for the championships of themselves. And I agree with that because at this point here, that silly trophy that was in the ring, the WBA and WBC belt, they mean nothing. It's just two men with what Gene kept referring to and talks about all the time. Too much pride. At this stage, at this stage, I'm not saying you're going to feel crazy at ringside,

but you know you're watching something very special and something that neither of them will ever be able to reproduce again. A minute and 15 seconds to go in round eight, Steve. in that terrific line that they were fighting for the heavyweight championship of each other. That was written by Jerry Eisenberg who was writing for the New York Star Ledger and one of the great writers

who was lucky enough to see so many of these great knights along with the likes of Gene Kilroy. And we can see here as we move into the final minute, Ali now is in his own corner and Frazier finding room for some of these shots where Ali looks as though he's covered every potential angle but the uppercuts come through from Frazier. Then he bobs and weaves in the corner.

The moving target still, that cross-armed defence, whips in the left hooks as Ali refuses to move from his corner, the red corner. Another uppercut comes through from Frasier with the right hand. Then the left uppercut all the time piercing the sometimes tight guard of Ali. Then a crunching right hook. That was the one that made you flinched Steve. 20 seconds to go in round eight.

See, Mike, this isn't rope-a-dope. This isn't rope-a-dope. People keep saying just casually and lazy, this is roper-dope. This is not roper-dope. Ali's got his back to the ropes and he's fighting for his life and phrases in front of him making sure that everything he throws lands every single thing he throws is active every single thing he throws means something

it's eight rounds in I had it at this bell 4-4 when I rescored it and I scored it and I went back and did it twice Mike how did you have it at this point and more than that more than that let's just tell the truth here no after timing at this point if you were ringside who was going to win at this point yeah I've got Ali leading by five rounds three at this stage, Steve, but at this day, if I'm commentating, I'm seriously concerned for Ali and the images we're watching at the moment, we are going to move on from round eight now to

round 13, so if you want to get yourselves ready. But if you look at the images in the corner of Ali, he looks so desperately tired. And we're going to move on very shortly to round 13. But I mentioned how if I were commentating, I might have been concerned about Ali and the condition he was in. Well, what was the mood in the corner? Here's what Jean Kilroy remembers. And I was concerned. But if you look at Ali's whole his boxing career, the only time he ever got hit when he was on the ropes, if he was in the center of the ring,

not too many people landed punches on him. But if they backed him up to the ropes, it was a different story. Different story, Steve. But for how long could Ali play out that different story? For how long would the legs take him away from Joe Frazier? We're moving into round 13. Of course, it's long since been the case that championship fights were staged over 12 rounds,

but this is still the era of 15 rounds, and they're now moving into round number 13 of the Thriller in Manila, the third time that these two have met. The first time, Fraser wins in Madison Square Garden, same venue, second time around Arleigh wins. And it's so, so close as they move into round 13, although there was a consensus at ringside that Ali was starting to come back into the contest. but he's driven back to the ropes in the first half a minute of round 13 by Frazier in a scenario we've seen so often during the fight so far, Steve. You know, what was interesting at the first 30 seconds there as you were just talking through that is how many of those shots Frazier just ducked from,

just blocked, pulled out of the air. So even at this point, it's a highly skilled contest. The initial screening of it, the initial thoughts of it, is that Frazier plods his way forward and he gets caught nonstop. But sure he does, but you watch that first 30 seconds at that opening, third the opening for first if you watch now Steve watch now as a right hand sends the gum shield of phrase it on one minute and 55 seconds on the clock the gum shield of phrasia flies into the crowd from a right hand from mohammed ali and this is a point in the contest now with a minute and 15 seconds gone in round 13 when arlie is starting to get on top a lovely right hand followed by a left hand he reverses the copybook combination that's been so effective for him throughout the contest and phrasing now with his right eye swelling, his left eye almost closed at this stage, he's walking onto punches that he simply cannot see. Two solid left hooks from Ali in the neutral corner on the

right hand side of the ring as we look on. A minute and 15 seconds to go in round 13 and Arleigh now is not exactly landing at will, but pretty much everything he throws lands. He threw three, four, five punches in a row there, straight shots at around mid-range and all of them landed flush on the face of Frazier. Frazier's going forward pretty much by instinct now. Steve. He's going forward by instinct, Mike, but Arlene needed to catch his catch a breath there.

He's caught Frazier there and actually rock Frazier back on his hill. And just going back to that moment, Ali slips down on the water in his own corner. Mike, just going back to that moment he knocks the gum shield out. Because Frazier's left eye is closing, Ali turns slightly away

so he doesn't hit him with a right hand straight. He's off to the side. And in fact, he's moving slightly to his own right so that he can drop the right hand in over that blind side. Often he's doing that in this particular round. Look at this, Mike, we're in the last 30 seconds and backed up Ali again with Fraser working away.

The first 90 seconds, Fraser took a beating in this round. A very serious and at this point in the fight, draining and sickening beating. And how is this man still on his feet, still finding the guile to slip under a punch from Ali? But then Ali lands a left-right, solid combination again as we come towards the bell at the end of the 13th round. And a left hook from Frazier is that last act of defamation.

at the end of the 13th round, a round which we heard afterwards from Eddie Futch in the corner greatly troubled him and there were signs in the corner here that Eddie Futch was really concerned about Frasier. And as Eddie Futch gets to work on Frasier, you can see the damage around his eyes

and therefore the difficulty that Frasier is having in seeing what's coming at him. He's got the smelling salts out, Eddie Fudge. Smellings salts still legal at that point. But there's nothing in Frasier's face that suggests he's got. got that much left.

And did you see how much blood he spits out there? If you've actually got this clip, if you're watching this with us, watching and listen, he spits out a mighty gush of blood. Whereas the first clip after the 13th round ends, you see, Ali, he slumps down into the corner really heavily. A stool better be there.

He's going to go down. He's not going to get up. He lands on the stool, but he takes a deep breath. But somehow, don't know how. He still seems to sparkle when he's in the corner at that particular point, Mike. So the bell sounds out.

for the start of round number 14, potentially six minutes remaining in what's become an unforgettable heavyweight contest and Frazier somehow still goes on the front foot and we can see as we watch the action here how that left eye is becoming more and more damaged as the contest wears on. We've completed the first half of this 14th round a fairly relatively quiet opening to the round compared to much of the rest of the contest. Frasier still swaying from the way. Still trying to make Ali miss, but Ali connects with a left-right combination.

Frazier happy to hold on, to grab onto Ali, but still presses forward. Ali on the ropes on the far side of the ring. Clipping left hook from Frazier gets through. He's still winging in these shots with a minute gone in round 14, Steve. Mike, it looks like neither of them have got anything left.

I mean, when Fraser had Ali backed up there, Ali's just holding him and tight and gulping in big airs. Frazier still looking for that left hook. The left hook, of course, which dropped Ali in their first fight back of Madison Square Garden in 1971. Still looking to throw that shot. Ali still connected with the right hands from the ropes. He's still landing those shot after shot. It's just been 13 rounds and one minute and 30 seconds of pulverizing action.

And that exchange in the corner was broken up by the referee Carlos Padilla, who steps in once again and all the time is, looking away at the left hand of Ali when Ali puts that glove around the back of the neck of Joe Frazier, even here in the heat of the battle in the 14th round. And that was significant for the whole contest. For the free-flowing nature of the contest, the referee Carlos Padilla, has to take some credit for that. We're moving into the last minute of this round, Steve. And from somewhere, somehow, Ali mounts a sustained attack, not necessarily on the front foot,

but he opens up. You see these straight shots here, four and five punches, almost runs up. after Frazier falls off balance. He himself is so tired. But he mounts this attack here, Steve, might be the most important minute of his entire career. Two jabs and a right hand. Then another jab and a right hand over the top. And Frazier here now simply cannot see the punches coming, but even if he could, he would be struggling to get out of the way here. With 30 seconds to go, this is the action, no doubt, Steve, that convinced Eddie Futch that his man should be taking no more. 25 seconds to go in round four.

And still Fraser's looking for that left hook. Ali nearly falls over as he's landing his shots. Then it's Frazier's turning to miss with a left hook and nearly fall over. These two men are, they're seconds away from collapse, Mike. They're seconds away from collapse. Where Ali is finding the ability to put three and four punches together is a mystery, a God-given mystery. And the bell sounds at the end of round 14.

And Carlos Padilla, the referee, actually helps Joe Frazier back to his corner. Angelo Dundee gets to work on Muhammad Ali. There are no words of motivation or encouragement that can make any difference at this stage of the contest. Joe Frazier at this stage is shaking his head. We hear afterwards that he was saying to Eddie Futch, don't stop the contest. Eddie Futch now turns around. The man with the red towel draped over his left shoulder, calls the referee Carlos Padilla over and decides that they've seen enough. And it's Gene Kilroy who sees it first, tells Angelo Dundee. Angelou Dundee relays the news, to Ali and a desperately tired, exhausted Ali, rises to his feet to acclaim victory here

in one of the most unforgettable fights in history, the greatest heavyweight fight for me, Steve, that we've ever seen. Yeah, there's no comparison, Mike. There's Gene in the ring there. You can see him who he's back there, just trying to give Ali some space, telling people to give him some space, let him sit down, they've got to fan him. Mike, from the very first round, as I said, I think that's one of the greatest neglected rounds in boxing that first round of this contest. All the way through, there's never a moment, there's never a second when you can relax. Look at the state of Ali there, absolutely exhausted. Frazier's still up, bouncing from toe to toe in the opposite corner.

That was, you know what, Mike, it's the most grueling, is it, I think it's the most grueling fight that I ever watched. When I watch fights back, it's the most grueling fight. It's the most grueling physical. experience as a viewer, in my opinion. And let's get the view from the corner, Steve, and Gene Kilroy. Fraser wasn't landing that many punches, but Ali was hitting some jabs and right hands to his head. And Fraser wasn't getting out of the way of the punches.

So I knew something could be wrong. Now, let me tell you, in the final round, I looked over to the corner, and Eddie Futch was waving his hands in front of Joe's eyes. And then Eddie turned around and he waved the fight off, the fights off. And I yelled up to the corner, Ali, the fight is stopped. He said, all praises do, Allah, who we call his God. All praises do Torah law. And then we went in the ring and everybody started jumping on them.

And then he said, all you crazy fools jump on, I'm just going to sit down. And then someone said he fainted. But he never, he didn't faint or he didn't pass out. He just sat down and let the crazy people jump around. But I mean, I talked with Eddie Futch later and George Yvette, and Fraser didn't want to stop the fight. He wanted to fight the guys in the corner stopping the fight. But when Eddie Fudge held up the fingers, how many fingers,

Fraser couldn't even make them out? He said, that's it. I'm stopping this, Eddie Fudge. Who was one of the greatest boxing trainers of all times? And the great what if, Gene, which has been discussed in the decade since, is what would have happened had the bell sounded for the 15th round? You were there in Ali's corner. How much did he have left if they had to go through that last three minutes? His tank wasn't empty.

His tank. See, pride. The will determine the skill. and Ali, he could have went 20 rounds if he had to. He wasn't a quitter. You see great athletes play. Broken ribs, broken hands, bad legs, you know. They rise to the occasion.

And that was Ali. There was no quid in him. That was one of the reasons that made him victorious. There was no quid in him. He applied himself. And that was something that we always remember about him. Gene, he might have had no quitting him, and of course he had no quitting him, and I'm sure he would have continued.

But when you got back to the dressing room, you know, I always thought that he was absolutely exhausted and could barely put on his shoes. That's how much he'd left in the ring that morning in Manila. Well, not his shoes. His hands were sore. Oh, okay. His hands were sore. And then they had some parties going on.

And we just went back to the hotel room, him and I, and his brother, we sat in the room, watch TV and, you know, relax. But his hands were sore and his body was sore. Could you imagine taking a beating like that, you know? Just think how freezer felt. Gene, was that the most exhausted you'd ever seen him? In all of your years of being that close to him? Was that the most exhausted?

You never seen it. You are exactly right with the conditions, the heat of the arena. Now, if he didn't prepare himself for that fight, if he didn't dot all the eyes and crossed all the T's, it could have been a different ballgame. And Ali said afterwards, Steve, that Joe Frazier was the toughest opponent he'd ever faced. No surprise there.

I'm going to get your view in a moment, Steve, on what you think would have happened had there been a 15th round. But I think what's interesting is what Eddie Futch was talking about in the years afterwards, you know, so often he was asked about that particular decision to call off the fight before the 15th round was allowed to get underway. And he remembers being in arenas when Davy Moore died in a featherweight world title fight against Sugar Ramos in 1963. Coincidentally, Angelo Dundee was in Sugar Ramos's corner. And back in 1947 as a youngster when Jimmy Doyle was beaten by Sugar Ray Robinson. he talks about knowing what boxing could do to men and that was an influence on his decision that

night in Manila back in October 1975 but had he allowed Frazier to go out for that 15th and final round what's your view as to what would have happened because for me just looking at the pattern of that fight and in particular the pattern of the first fight I think we'd have just seen another round very similar to any of those that we'd seen previously. Those two men dragged everything from each other. And strange as it might sound, there might even have been more to come. Had either one of those risen to answer the bell,

the other one would have responded. Yeah, and I think what we'd have seen at the start of the 15th wouldn't have been necessarily a continuation of what we'd seen at the end of the 14th, if Ali dominated. I think Ali would have used that the first 30, 40 seconds just to be in control, to move like he did. And I think you're right, Mike.

I think we would have seen a great finish, a great, unbelievable last minute. But I don't think Ali would have stormed out at the start of the 15th to try and finish what he nearly finished in the 14th. He's too smart for that because if after 30 seconds, after all of his attacks and flurries, he invariably has to suck in air and he has to claim Frazier. Frazier also would have gone out because it was the last round.

I think Ali would have played the first minute safe and got through the last, last two and won the decision by a couple of rounds. I agree with you. I think it would have gone the full 15. That's not to say in any way do I disagree with what Eddie Futch did that morning or probably lunchtime, that lunchtime in Manila. Absolutely.

And Joe Frazier, Steve, looking at that damage around the left eye, he had an operation a month later in November of that year on a cataract in that eye. When he fought George Foreman the following year, he was actually wearing a contact lens in that eye. which got dislodged in the fifth and final round, the round in which he was beaten and lost to George Foreman for a second time. He only fought twice more, Steve, didn't he? Joe Frazier after that thriller in Manila, Steve.

That fight against George Foreman, lost to Foreman for the second time. Then there was a five-year gap in his last fight against Jumbo Cummings. A draw against Jumbo Floyd Cummins. Hardly to the way you want to end a career like Joe Frazier had. In fact, that Foreman fight, which I think was about eight or nine months after the thrill of manure. That's a horrible fight, Mike. That's a really horrible fight. And Joe's eye troubles, depending on who you believe, one of his biographers, or Joe himself, they're much earlier in his career. I think that in that final, final foreman fight,

he's close to blind in one of his eyes. That's a really vicious and horrible fight to watch, just as horrible and vicious in some ways. Not horrible and vicious. Those are, the wrong words. I mean, they're vicious, they're savage. You know, you put your fingers up to your eyes in admiration and awe of what they put themselves through. Perhaps what's amazing, Mike, I know you're going to move on to this now, is how soon are Lee's back in action? Just how soon he can get his body to recover. We saw him take punch, we saw him take short left hooks and rights to the body, full fled shots, not glancing shots, for 14 rounds. He should have been doing nothing for six months. Four months later, he's defending his world title. Forget the opposition.

You still got to go through a camp. You're still got to lose 30 or 40 pounds. Four fights within a year of the contest that we've just been talking about tonight. And the last of those was a close one against Ken Norton, the third and final contest against Ken Norton. Ali would fight 10 more times after that thriller in Manila. He would eventually lose the title to Leon Spinks. Then, he won it back again immediately and then had another shot at Larry Holmes having retired and finally finished against Trevor Burbock in the Bahamas, finishing with two defeats against Larry Holmes and against Trevor Burbank. But the measure of that contest, Steve, that night of the thriller in Manila is such that when I went to the Philippines in 2010,

I've told you before about the documentary I made about Manny Pacquiao, I made a point of going out to the Aroneta Coliseum and just standing outside, just literally standing outside, staring up at the entrance. That's the kind of impact that the fight had on me. And no doubt many others, I just had this need to go and stand outside the venue. It's a pilgrimage, Mike. You know, we sometimes get accused of living in the past on this pod.

But when you're past, when all of our collective pasts has fights, like that thing that happened in Manila on the 1st of October 1975, between about 11 o'clock and noon, when your past has fights like that, you have to live with them. You can't ignore them. You can't say, oh yeah, that's how they did things back then.

And as I said, right at the top of this show, it's not just the great fights they had when they came together, when Foreman came together with Frazier, or when Ali came together with Frazier, or when Ali came together with Foreman. Look at the fights in the middle. There were no pickups. There were no gimmies.

Every fight throughout that entire period. It lives on. And that's why it's always a pleasure, well, it's always a pleasure to speak to Anthony Joshua, when Anthony Joshua talks about those fighters. Because he's a man that really studies and really understands what they did. And deep down inside, I think Joshua kind of enjoys that idea that you win, you lose, you get knocked down, you get back up.

I think he kind of enjoys it. I think he had a good time back in the 70s and I really do. Yeah, those are the night, Steve, that we wish we were present at. Gene Kilroy was there, of course, and these are his final reflections. What they produced that night was the pride and respect that they had for each other, and none of them wanted to lose. You know, Grantland Rice, the great writer, said one time, when the great scorer comes to mark him against your name,

he marks not the win and loss, but the way you played the game. and those fighters played the game that night. They laid it all out there. They didn't take any shortcuts. Do you miss him, Gene? Every day of my life. You know, every day of my life, it's, you know, Steve, I went to see him for a 69th birthday.

They had a little party in Phoenix, and I haven't seen him for a while. And when I got there, you know, he was getting ready to come. out to greet me and he came out shaken and I looked at him when I said to myself, God, you should take him. You know, he suffered like this. And then he sat down and reached up, he hugged me. He kissed me. He said, Gene, didn't we have a lot of fun? I said, we sure did. He said, would you do anything different

if you had your life to live over? I said, no, Muhammad, I wouldn't. Then it wouldn't have been me. He said, me either. And then I said to myself, God, let him live as long as he wants. But he, you know, for moments, he had sharpness and feelings

and he could think he couldn't talk that well, but we communicated that there and that was that was a very special moment in my life would you have done anything over? No, what about you? Nothing. Lived a special life in his company

Gene, you've lived a special life Well, I've been blessed to be around Elijah Muhammad told me one time there's a greater power than Muhammad Ali and myself has you here, Allah has you here and that's what he believed it

as God. And he was entitled to believe in that and the other religions and believe in their God. So I felt honored and close. And to me, it wasn't just a job, but it was a challenge every day. All the people coming around with another bad deal, I had to chase them away to hustlers, the bustlers. Everybody wanted to haul them here, haul them there. You know, everybody had a game plan. and Ali was an individual. If he walked in the bathroom, he would come out with two new friends, and then I would have to run them away. I remember one time we were in Larry Holmes.

He lived in eastern Pennsylvania, and they had a big prison there. And Ali asked Ali if he would come down and go to the prison. So we went down, and we had the big mobile bus like a home. And we visit the prisons. We were in there. there were 13 black guys of me. When we left the prison, there were 14 black guys of me. The guy, who were you?

He said, I just escaped with you guys. Ali said, good, you come to the training camp. We look out there. I said, no, we're going to drop him off at the Allentown Airport. You're not going to go to jail for Harvard a criminal. So we dropped him off at the airport, gave him a couple thousand dollars in the ticket, and he was on his way to this day. I don't know what happened to him.

Gene, how do you think Ali would have coached today if he was involved in a fight like the thriller in Manila today with the ever-expanding media landscape and all the demands there would have been on his time? How would he have coped? Okay, Mike, you've got to remember one thing. When Ali was training, it was open to the press.

Everybody who wanted an interview, he never turned anyone down. If it was a high school kid writing for his high school paper, he gave him just as much time as he would Ken Jones. Or, you know, he was that type of individual. Now, with opening to the press, today, you don't even see the fighters. Ali would come down in the morning and the hotel have breakfast, all dressed up, meet with people.

I told Floyd Mayweather, I said, Floyd, if Ali and I had breakfast together and on closed circuit TV, we would outdraw your fights because he would be promoting the breakfast. You know, he knew how to promote those things. You know, and all the press, so many times press would call, I'm, Jean, I, I, and Gene, I, I got a deadline here. Can I talk? Yeah. Mohammed got this guy on the phone, that kind of phone. He'd get on there.

I'm here to have no fear. Ali's here. You know, he was available for people. Gene, we talked about how tiring. Just going back to the thriller. We talked about how tiring and how exhausted and how great and brilliant a fight it was. Did you sense that Muhammad was different after that fight in the weeks, days and months after? Did you sense a change in the man?

I didn't, that slurring started later, later, later. You know, everybody, now let me just say something, Steve. He came down with Parkinson disease. The Pope had it, Janice. Reno had it. So many people had Parkinson's, and they never participated in any sport. So you can't say Parkinson's was from boxing. You know, you can't blame.

on that. You know, who knows what Parkinson's, what causes it? But he fought it for a long time. What was it? 10, 15 years. You know, it started to get worse. He had tough times walking.

It started out. It speech alert and then he had a little tough time walking. Then it got rougher, rougher. Then he got the shakes, you know. And that's how Parkinson's come on it. I used to tell him you're a prisoner in your own body. You can't do the things

that you like to do. You say, you're right, you're right. You know, we talked one time like I said, would you do anything different? Then it wouldn't have been him. You know, he was against when people would say, look what boxing did to you. He said,

boxing made a lot of, a lot of poor people, a lot of money. When I fought everybody made money, the guy selling tickets, the guy cleaning the arena, all the people, you know, everybody, I put a lot of people to work. That's how he looked at it.

Gene, as ever, mate, that's brilliant. I really appreciate your time. That's a great... Thanks, Gene. Great interview. Thank you for your time. I just want to thank you guys for keeping boxing going. The UK, I remember when they took the title from Ali,

they still called him his champ over there. I remember when Ali fought Joe Bugner, he told the UK fans, you don't have to root for me now root for your fighter but after I beat him come back to me you know but they always

he always appreciated that the writers the fans and the boxing people in the UK Gene thanks so much for your time take care in Vegas take care keep up the good work I'm big fans

you guys Mike you take care and Steve keep on going Thanks Gene hopefully we can all travel soon and we'll have some We'll have a bite tweet when we're next in Vegas. Okay, make sure we get together. I'm looking forward to that. Take care.

Gene Keirroy, Stephen, his first-hand memories of some of the greatest moments in the history, not just of boxing, but of sport. We weren't fortunate enough to be around, to be old enough to be reporting on Ali's life and career. But I did get to cover Steve his funeral, and as morbid as it sounds, it's become one of the highlights of my career. Gene mentioned there that he went to Ali's 69th. birthday party. Well, Ali died at the age of 74 in 2016, and I covered the funeral in his

hometown of Louisville, Kentucky. And I remember positioning myself on the corner of 9th Street and Muhammad Ali Boulevard as the Quartheid came along and made its way down towards the old family home before going on to the cemetery. And I got there very early in the morning as the crowds were building. And knowing that I was going to be doing live reports into Five Live, I was just talking to some of the local people there and working out who I might talk to to give me a feeling of what was going down in Louisville at the time. And I met this young woman mid-20s with her two sons who was there on this grass verge leading down to the main road which the Cortez made its way along. And as these boys, over the course of three and four hours I was waiting there,

these two young boys were, they were boxing and wrestling and pushing and shoving each other, laughing, joking, arguing and running around this patch of green. And it struck me, Steve. They were maybe six, seven, eight years of age. And I thought, here's two youngsters playing in this patch of grass in Louisville, Kentucky. If I said to you that in 20 years time, one of these is going to shake up the world. In 30 years time, one of these will have the most famous face on the planet. You'd say, you're crazy, man, get out of here. But that happened back in the 60s and 70s. That happened there in Louisville to a very ordinary young man who became at that stage the most famous face on the planet. Well, Mike, back in 1954 or five, whenever it was when he first walked into a boxing gym,

your predictions then would have been even crazier than they would have been that after the funeral. Let's get that absolutely right. Let's get that right. You know, he had those two kids playing on the grass that they have got far more chance. of changing the world and being the greatest fighter in history than the young kid Cassius Clay who'd lost his bike and stumbled into a boxing gym when he was 10 or 11 years of age. Absolutely got far more chance.

You know, what he did was miracle from the very, very start. And Joe Frazier died at the age of 67 in 2011. And between them, Steve, they left us with so many memories to cherish. They left us with a period called various things. that decade, that 70s, but really there's an awful lot of stuff in the 60s. It's then stuff that carries on into the 80s. And then it's almost like another generation discovered them at some point in the 90s. You know, they became these two great souls.

And I think the fact that George Foreman was the permanent living, breathing, shouting cheerleader, pushing both of their careers years and years after they'd finished fighting and reminding us of what we had. And then along came the internet. and it allowed everybody else. So not just read you, McElvenny's words, not just read Jerry Eisenberg's words, not just take my word for it or your word for it,

not just look at ridiculously grainy 16-mill colour films of the fights with no sound like we had to do in the 70s and the 80s, but they could just pop it up on their phone and watch it in awe whilst they were in a coffee shop or on a tube or on a train or in a taxi or at home in their bedroom. I think the online, the advance of online, the online ability to watch fights has made these fights in some ways even bigger and greater than they were. But never better than to get a first-hand account.

And our thanks to Gene Kilroy for guiding us through the thriller in Manila from October 1975, won by Muhammad Ali, who was clearly ahead on all the judges' scorecards at the time. So much to remember from the careers of Ali and Frazier. and what a way to finish our greatest fights series. Thank you to all of you for supporting us and for your many responses all the way through this series. Maybe we can do it again sometime soon, but we'll be back with our regular podcast on Monday next week

and every following week on 5 live boxing with Costello and Bunce. Costello and Bunce's Greatest Fights.