5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Greatest Fights - Tyson v Spinks with David Haye

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

Former heavyweight world champion David Haye joins Mike Costello and Steve Bunce to rewatch the night in 1988 when a 21-year-old Mike Tyson was at his most fearsome in the ring, destroying Michael Spinks in 91 seconds. They delve into the circumstances surrounding the fight including Donald Trump's involvement in putting it on, and debate Tyson's legacy among the greatest of all time.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Costello and Bunce's greatest fights. Thank you for joining us once again on Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce and the latest in our series of Great Fight Nights. And today we're going back to June 1988 and a time when Mike Tyson, Steve, was at his absolute fiercest. He was at his fiercest in the ring and he was at arguably his most dangerous outside. the ring, most volatile. I'm choosing my words carefully because I don't want to label him like he was being labelled at that time in the press. In fact, reading fresh about this fight,

going into detail, getting contemporary newspaper reports up. That's the only way to look at this fight again, Mike, isn't to look at something that appeared last year somewhere. No, it's to look at what the big boss writers, the boss scribes, as Don King called them, were writing at the time. and the picture that's painted is of a man, Mike Tyson, in severe meltdown. And all of that added to his fearsome nature in the ring. We're talking about a fight that was billed as once and for all. It was for the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. Three belts at stake, the WBC, the WBA and the IBF.

The WBO had yet to come into existence at this stage in 1988. and it was Mike Tyson against Michael Spinks, the former world light heavyweight champion who'd moved up to heavyweight and ended the 48 fight unbeaten run of Larry Holmes. Larry Holmes, no less than the second longest reigning champion in history behind the great Joe Lewis. And he'd beaten him twice, had Spinks in 1985

and again in 1986, having moved up to the heavyweight division. And so we come to the Convention Hall in Atlantic City, Steve, June 188. this fight between two men unbeaten in 65 contests between them, Don King, the promoter, and Donald Trump having a huge influence in the whole event. It was a massive event. I mean, let's get this absolutely like. We could do four pods here, one, two, three, four. We could do one.

Mike Tyson involved in the Spinks fight. We could do two, Michael Spinks involved in the Spinks fight. We could do three. Donald Trump involved with the Spinks fight. And then we could do the rest of the carnival. and I assure you the rest of the carnival is almost an A to Z of the lunacy, the craziness that existed in boxing at that time,

involving so many characters we just don't have time. The Donald Trump stuff is really interesting, Mike, because I didn't realize until I saw an article from the LA Times from February to 24th of that year, four months and a couple of days before the fight, that was when he bid and won the bid to stage the fight, with a then world record $11 million site fee. The previous site fee was held from the year before

Bob Aram was given, I think, $7 million by Caesars for Hagler, Marvin Hagler, against Sugar Ray Leonard. So this fight was being talked about from the February of that year when Donald bid this preposterous figure to stage this fight. And then he said, and it will gross a hundred million. And you talk, Steve, about the site fee, which is basically an auction, hotels and venues to get the big fights and for Donald Trump it was really important to bring the

boxing business he felt to his hotel and casino budding empire in Atlantic City and the Trump Plaza his hotel became the fight venue during the week for everybody attached to the fight and he saw boxing as a great driver for his building hotel and casino empire business and he'd been involved in the sport at this elite. level at this monster level in terms of revenues since the mid-1980s. And he figured that by shelling out $11 million, he would get much more back from the drop, as they call it, at the casino. And we should remember, Steve, and remind everyone that this was a fight that took place on Monday evening, as many big fights did at that time, so that they could get the high

rollers into the casino right the way across the weekend and therefore hopefully improve their but such was the influence of Donald Trump around this fight, Steve, that he featured prominently in the main fight promo video if you listen to this. Thank you, Mr. Trump. Yeah, thank you, Mr. Trump. Now we'll see who's the champion. And who's the chunk. At Trump Plaza Atlantic City, Tyson v. Spinks, once and for all.

June 27th. Order now from your pay-per-view system. Mike, when you watch that, when you hear that, and when you listen to that, you have to wonder that had Trump not gone on to be president, would this have been his greatest achievement? This and losing a few billion here and there. I'm only throwing it out there.

But if his plans to make Atlantic City bigger than Las Vegas had worked out, Steve, we now wouldn't be talking about the president of the United States. And it was fascinating looking behind the scenes, Steve, as you've done for this, and I have as well, that the measures that he was putting in place to make this really work. I mean, for example, he had a walkway constructed from the Trump Plaza to the convention hall where the fight took place so that he could herd everybody back from the fight afterwards into the casino, as we see on every big fight night now in Las Vegas.

On the day of the fight, he drove the American broadcasters, HBO, absolutely bonkers by insisting that from a front row seat, the main attendee, Frank Sinatra, would have to crane his neck too far back to look up at the ring. And so he insisted that the ring platform was lowered by a foot to make it more comfortable in terms of viewing for Frank Sinatra. And Frank Sinatra in the end didn't even turn up for the fight. But that was the kind of influence. You know, here we'll see later on in the ring

and we're going to, by the way, start right from the first bell, but we will see some of the buildup. But if you want to follow along, as you have been doing on these great fight nights with us on the podcast, then we're going to start right from the first bell, and we'll give you plenty of warning as that's about to happen. But it's just a sign, Steve, with those promos and other events of the week, how big a factor in this fight. Even though it was promoted by Don King and all the flamboyance that he brought to these events, it was Donald Trump, who was such a huge player in getting this fight on. Yeah, Michael Buffer, the MC, I think, announced or read out a list of 84 celebrities.

It was probably meant to be 85. Sinatra, as you said, wasn't there, even though Trump had requested. I love that, requesting the ring to be dropped. I thought that was really, really small. And just going back to Trump, Mike, when he won that bid back in February, he had outbid the Las Vegas Hilton, and he had outbid Cesar's, remember, in Las Vegas. Two venues that thought they had this fight, thought they had everything, tied up. So in all fairness, from a business point of view, this was a monumental risk,

but it was also a potential game changer. Coming up, one of the most destructive performances in the history of the heavyweight division, we're going to start Mike Tyson against Michael Spinks once and for all, as it was called, right from the first bell. But just to illustrate, Steve, who Mike Tyson was at the time, 34 fights unbeaten. At that stage, 15 of them had ended inside the first round and he was still only 21. It was a few days away from his 22nd birthday. We've spoken before on the podcast generally about the impact that Mike Tyson made in our world in South East London amateur boxing and how he, I'm convinced because I was coaching at the time, drove youngsters to that door, to the front door of the gym in a way that nobody in my coaching

experience had done before. So this was a man whose impact was resonating around. the world. And if you remember, Steve, in this country, this was pre-satellite television. This was pre-cable broadcasting. This was pre-paper-view. So he was still being broadcast, Tyson over here, on ITV, as it was most of the time, sometimes live overnight from the United States. If not, it was broadcast the following evening. So he was available to everybody, accessible to everybody in the UK and other fight fan infested nations around the world. So, So this was a man who was very, very close at the time to, if not the most popular sportsman on the planet, certainly the most well known. And it was at a time when Michael Jordan as well was making big news in basketball at the stage.

But if you talk back and you look back at the history of Mike Tyson, he was the biggest attraction. Yeah, and also, Mike, you keep going back and you have to, sorry, you have to keep going back to that age. You know it was only three or four days before his birthday, but he was 21. when he left his dressing room that night and walked to the ring he was 21 having his 35th fight as you said 30 of them so far had been quick 7th defense if I'm not mistaken seventh defense at just not even 22 years of age he was destroying people I've got I mean I have some I have some brilliant records which were taken from the boxing news office all those years ago because at this time I was working for boxing news so I used to go in there and they were records that

were hand typed after a weekend of fights they were hand typed by people i've done it a few times and other people's editors like claude abraham who went on to be an editor would do it or harry mullin the editor would do it and in on those records and they're monuments you touch them like you found a relic in a cave somewhere in mesopotania that's what they mean to you might i wear gloves i literally wear white gloves when i touch them and i'm touching a photocopy that's how simple i am and and on those it has all sorts of things like it'll have any kind of any kind of detail that's relevant. And the one thing it does have is it has the knockdowns and what punches calls the knockdowns. So you look through Tyson's first 34 fights and you see how many times X was on the floor, Y was on the floor. It's quite sensational. I mean, and then

you saw him and we're going to, you know, people that are going to watch this with us and enjoy the experience with us, listening to this and reliving it, when he gets in the ring and he's got the troubles of the world on his shoulders and we need to do a little bit of. on his whole marriage and the Donking and the Kate and Jacob situation. Don't worry about that. As I say, Mike, this is four podcasts in one today. He might as well get your sleeping blanket out. But doesn't he look...

Mike, doesn't he look young? He still looks young. He looks like a child. When he just streps through the ropes, he's like a baby. And to put it into perspective, Steve, as you said earlier on, 21 years of age, we're talking about Daniel Dubois in this country as having plenty of time and let's not rush him and, you know, he's won for the future.

As you say, here's a man who was having his eighth world title fight. But you alluded to it there, Steve. You know, he'd recently been married to the American actress Robin Givens, and there was nothing less than chaos in his life behind the scenes. She'd shown up at the way in, dressed all in black, because there was a claim that she'd lost a baby a couple of weeks earlier. Her and him and her were kind of a strange, but not really. really estranged. Then there was Ruth Roper, her mother, who was in the middle of them,

and of course, Don King, who loved it, because the more that Robin Givens and Roof Roper alienated Mike Tyson away from his previous management team of Jim Jacobs, who died a few months earlier, and Bill Cater, the guy that was in charge of it, the more chance there was of Don King taking control. I mean, it was just basically divide to Conco. But there was hate and there was chaos, and there were also really juicy rumors, because Robin Gibbons and Donald Trump had been together constantly. They were seen together at 1 o'clock in the morning

on the day of the fight. They were then on the massive breakfast show, Good Morning America at 7 o'clock in the morning. They were seen here, they were seen there. They were everywhere together. And Tyson himself was complaining about this saying, you know, Donald Trump's calling my wife all the time. He wasn't really talking to his wife

and then he would talk to his wife, but they wouldn't leave Robin Gibbons in a room with him, so they said it was chaos. And two days before the fight, a good friend of mine, Wally Matthews, managed to get hold of this incredible story that he needed to stand up. And it was about all of the accusations of abuse aimed by Roof, Roper, and Lobbing Givens at Tyson. Two days before the fight, Mike, they were still married.

And so Raleigh Matthews has to call Tyson up. And this is not me reading. This is me remembering what Wally Matthews told me, not shortly after this, when Wally and I became good friends. And in the end, Tyson calls him up. This is two days before the fight, and Tyson's in tears, in tears of him, saying it's not true. And Wally gets off the phone and thinks, how can this kid, this boy, who's so troubled, so damaged anyway, how can he possibly fight on Monday in one of the biggest fights for the last 20-odd years?

How can it happen? He'd been a blubbering wreck on the phone. So we know all of that now. Some people at ringside, the boss scribes, they knew all that then. Can you even imagine? Can you get your head around having that information? Can you get your head around? Having that sort of information

and you walk into the arena that night. What would it have been like, Mike? Well, as I say, we're going to join the action right from the first bell. And we're now joined Steve by a man who, like Michael Spinks, won world titles in two weight divisions, in his case, a cruiserweight and heavyweight. It's David Hay. Great to have you with us, David, for such an exciting night as it was back then.

Yeah, good to be here. I was, I think I was eight years old, a seven or eight years. at the time and obviously big Frank Bruno fan and I knew that the winner of this was fighting Frank Bruno. Frank Bruno was probably going to fight Mike Tyson and it was a daunting task and I remember watching my, I feel watching the next day, I mean watching it the next day or a couple days later and, you know, just to build up the significant longer than the fight obviously but I remember getting, I remember just the feeling I got as a kid watching that, who was massive boxing fan, it was, you know, that,

I think that was the first time I really felt Mike Tyson. All the kids at school were talking about it. Mike Tyson was Mike Tyson. And obviously in my household, everyone was a boxing fan. So everyone was talking about Mike Tyson. Frank Bruno is going to be fighting Mike Tyson. That was a talk. You know, how I remember, I was a baby.

I remember all the uncles, sort of everyone said, oh, Tyson's going to knock out Bruno. And I think my dad was going on. Now, Bruno's got a chance. He's got that jab. He's going to do this. And it was a real big, it really,

it really meant a lot those nights or those days when I watched it. You know, the American, the American, the guy from the streets of Brooklyn. It was,

I remember from Donald Trump. I mean, Donald Trump was in the ring and it was just, there's a bit of, all to come. Yeah, yeah, Don King,

Don King was there. Everybody, Hugh Hepner, everyone who was anyone, had to be in the ring on that day. It was the craziest, craziest thing. Well, that set the temperature for the night, Steve.

And you were underlining a few minutes ago of the chaos that was happening in Tyson's private life at the time. And that kind of chaos followed him all the way to the dressing rooms on the night when Butch Lewis, who was Michael Spinks, promoter and manager, objected to how Tyson had been gloved up and how there was a lump on the wrist of his left glove. Yeah, Butch and the trainer, Eddie Farts, the veteran trainer, the great Eddie Farts. They both complained. But they sort of, they weren't really complacent.

and it was a bit of a wind-up, but it was a good idea. It was a half-decent attempt. And Larry Hazard, who was the commissioner in New Jersey, who was a fairly colorful character, to say the least. There's apparently loads of chest, chest and nose together, eyeballing, loads of, you know, Tyson was swearing, screaming, and then Tyson punched a hole in a wall in the changing room, which was terrific stuff, great stuff.

And basically, all of that's true. There was a delay. There was chaos. No one knew what was going on. and Tyson was livid. However, the real story, in my opinion, is what was happening back in the other changing room, the other changing room where Michael Spinks was falling apart. Thuch is not in the room. Lewis is not in the room. By the way, Futch and Lewis don't like each other. In fact, they hate each other. And in the other changing room, Manny Stewart pops in to say hello,

to wish Michael, a kid is known since he was a baby on the amateur circuit in America, to wish him well. And Spinks tells him, I'm not getting the ring. and Mani says he's so scared he can't find There's no way he's going to find He's not going to be able to leave that room He's in there petrified Tyson's in the other room Knocking holes in the wall

And we're not even left the changing rooms yet That's what you want from a fight I mean and all of this remember It's being conveyed live Because it's delayed, it's being conveyed To 1600 cinemas around America Including some of those cinemas Were at racetracks

with as many as 6,000 people who have paid to watch it. So in addition to the ringside guests, in addition to the sold out arena, in addition to the millions and thousands watching, we've got these two very different men in their changing rooms, and we're not even left the changing. We're not even seen them yet. What a scene, what a fight.

You were saying, David, how that delay actually added to the building of the tension. I mean, you've been in those dressing rooms. Have you had hassle? Have you had, you know, the situation is that somebody from the opposite camp is allowed to watch you having your hands wrapped and watch you getting gloved up. So have you had anything resembling that kind of hassle? Yeah, you have opponents, cornermen coming to the change room. I famously had Derek Chazora come to watch me wrap my hands for the first Tony Belly fight. At that point, everyone knew my history with Derek Chazora. You know, we had that fight. We had the infamous pre-fight fight. And, you know, I'm expecting a member of Tony Bellew's team to come in who walks in,

Derek Tazora. I'm like, here we go. This is all we need. He was okay at the end. You know, he said, oh, you should be doing that? He kind of tried to cause a little bit of commotion. But, you know, I just started talking to him. Hey, I was like, hey, how you doing, Derek?

How you been? I just, I completely flipped it. I think they wanted, they wanted him to unsettle me. So I kind of flipped the skipper was really, really polite to him. Hey, what's going on? but you're looking forward to this fight. How's Tony looking? How's he feeling?

So I just tried to topsy-turvy the situation. And it caused someone in the camp said a thing like, what's he doing here? That's all he needed. What were you talking about? I can come and everyone. Then it kicked off a little bit. Well, no, don't worry, guys.

It's okay. It's okay. It's good. He can stay. It's no problem, I guess. So I got that. I also had before I thought Vladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko came in to check the hand reps to make sure.

And he was going, no, you should, is that too much tape this? I think you need, anyway, so I think I had to, we've got halfway through the hand, we got halfway through the first rack, and he's got, I'm not happy with that. We've got to start again, we have to start again. We anticipate that we had the BDB, or whoever the governor body from Germany was there, so they pretty much get told to do what the pitch goes to them to do. So I had to undo my hand and do it again.

But I was all, I was having a laugh. I got it all on videotape as well. We had a little with a laugh. He was playing the game. You kind of tried to, whenever you get an opportunity, to go into the enemy's corner, behind enemy's lines. You try and unsettle best you can

and try and whip up and wind up the situation, anyhow you can. If you can unsettle them, 1%, that could be the difference between a win and a loss in our minds. We're fighters. It's a bad battle. That's the Sun Tzu's Art of War. Any way to unsettle and knock someone

off their game plan, we've got to do it. So I've had it done to me, and I've done it plenty to other people. This gamesmanship is part of the game of boxing. And Butch Lewis was clearly trying to unsettle Mike Tyson and his camp at that stage. And we're going to join them on their respective journeys to the ring now. And just a warning again that we will take it right from the first bell. And we'll give you that warning when the bell is about to sound

so you can follow through and pick up on David's analysis as we watch this fight for the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. It's Monday the 27th of June 1988 at the Convention Hall in Atlantic City. a fight promoted by Don King with huge influence as we've been hearing from Donald Trump. And we're watching now Michael Spinks at last making his way to the ring. And he was posted into dressing room 104 at the Convention Hall, which was a dressing room that had been used by Mike Tyson six months earlier when he'd beaten Larry Holmes, the man whose unbeaten run Michael Spinks had ended. And David, at this stage, Michael Spinks for all his question,

Olympic champion, light heavyweight champion, and having beaten Larry Holmes, one of the longest reigning heavyweight champions in history, was still regarded as a massive underdog, even though one or two shrewd judges gave him a good chance. Yeah, you know, although he was, as you said, the two-time two-weight world champion, light heavyweight and heavyweight,

that wouldn't help him. It just means he's small. It just means he wasn't as big enough to soak up the impact of the most scariest, dangerous man, you know, probably since sunny, distant. You know, on paper, it should have been. a significantly closer match. He both undefeated.

You know, Spinks 2 champion. They never lost his belt. Did he have the IBF and was that stripped off of him? That's right, yeah, because he took on Jerry Cooney, yeah. Looking at him and coming to the ring, he doesn't look like a man

full of confidence, believing he's going to rip the titles from the champion. He's not exuding confidence right there. Yeah, he's just stepped in between the centre two ropes there, David. And I'm reminded watching his demeanour there of a quote,

from Buster Douglas, who would go on to beat Mike Tyson, of course, saying that too many men face Tyson with one foot in the ring and one foot out of the ring. And you kind of get that impression from the face of Michael Spinks there. Mike, just quickly, I don't know if you missed it there. A pair of you catch it. Obviously, we're watching something that people listening might not be watching. But Spinks goes straight over to Muhammad Ali who's in the ring.

And that's when Ali leaned in and says to him, all he can say is stick and move. just three words. He leans in and whispers in Spinks' ear. And it just happened right at the start. It was a really quick thing. No one picked up on it until afterwards when it became clear. Stick and move was Ali's advice to Spinks.

You can hear the noise in the background. Dave, should I tell you about the music, bro? Because I've done some research into the music, right? Everyone thought for about 20-odd years that it was a British band called Coil and it was their song saying, how to destroy angels, right? What a great name for Tyson, a bit of a piece of music. But it wasn't. It was just something put together by a guy that worked for Don King called Tom Alonzo,

who just used a couple of organs and a synthesizer. And the first thing that struck me, no disrespects, there ain't no stopping us now. But you can't live with how to destroy angels. That's what a heavyweight champion comes into, brother. So it's genius. It's absolute genius. The way it just sets the tone when you've got the most, The vicious, most vicious heavyweight in human history,

walking to the ring, like a pit bull and a chain ready to go. It's like a horror movie, and Spinks is in there, knowing that something eerie is about to happen. He's going to come a cropper here. And he's surrounded by four of New Jersey's finest, four policemen in front of him, a line of as many as 20 security personnel all ahead of him as he makes his way to the ring now

and steps in through the ropes and glares over at Michael Spinks in the opposite corner. As we were saying earlier on, Dave, this is a man who we have to remember is only 21 years of age at this stage. It's just astonishing what he was doing at this time in his life.

It really does. And when you say he's got the four police surrounding him, he's got the 20 entourage of security, we believe that's to stop other people maybe getting at him. It's not. It's a complete other way around.

It's to stop him doing stuff to other people. on the way to the ring. If anyone gets in Mike Tyson's away on the way to the ring, they're getting cleaned out, and that's what he was known for having a very, very short fuse. And we wanted him in the ring competing on this pay-per-view event. And it was a scary, scary proposition seeing him in there.

And showing his primeval instincts, making his way to the ring with no gown, bare-backed in those familiar black shorts, black boots, and no socks, of course, taking it right the way back to basics. No frills whatsoever. When you look at Spinks there, it's not that he looks scared or petrified. It's what people would insist.

He just looks like he doesn't want to be there. He looks indifferent. He's not smiling. He's not talking to anybody. So I don't necessarily see absolute fear. He was big on talking about, you know, I like it. You need a bit of terror in your life and fear's good. He just doesn't want to be here, Dave, does he?

He does not. He's looking at the floor. He does not want to be in that ring. It looks like a man going to the game. trying to act like he's not bothered about it. Bingo. He's like he's on death thrown. He's got a few days left and how are you feeling?

He says, yeah, I'm okay. You know, is what it is. I've got to go through the process. Mike Tyson being introduced to the crowd and prowling around the ring, covering every inch of his half of the ring at this stage. And it's interesting seeing Muhammad Ali in the ring as well because 10 years earlier it was Michael Springs brother Leon

who caused one of the bruce's brother, biggest upsets in boxing history by beating Muhammad Ali back then in only his eighth professional fight. And like Brother Michael was an Olympic gold medalist, but here we look at Mike Tyson, who just looks like the man that he's billed as at the time, the baddest man on the planet. He's not trying to look intimidating. He's not scouring. He's just naturally intimidating. He doesn't need to scream and shout. He just, he's just himself. but his self is the most fearsome looking creature. You know, you could ever imagine stepping across the ring the game.

Mike, you know, as they're pulled together here, maybe we should pause it here for everybody. Because Frank Cabuccino referees dragged them to the middle. And one of the things that we've missed here, that we maybe need to maybe we talked over it because you get sucked in, was the mad Michael Buffer introductions for Ali. But really, the mad Michael Buffer introduction

for the man of the moment in every sense. Donald Trump, it's one of the most ridiculous intros I think I've ever heard. Donald Trump got as mighty an intro as either of the fighters, but we're going to roll it on again now. So the two men have had the final instructions

from referee Frank Capuchino who would go on to be the third man in the first fight between Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward, another of these series, another of the fights we're covering. series of great fight nights and Mike Tyson returns to his corner and a hug from Kevin Rooney. This would be the last time that Kevin Rooney, a disciple of the great customato, the mentor and trainer of Mike Tyson until his death in 1985 before Tyson won the World Heavyweight

title. It was the last time that Kevin Rooney would be in his corner. So the two men now are in their respective corners. Everybody else just about now has left the ring. Frank Cabuccino in the center of the ring. And as the bell sounds, it's just about to sound. And and skips into the middle of the ring, David, as if he's in a school playground. He comes in so fleet of foot, so light. You know, he's like a coiled spring. Everything he does is explosive.

It's fast. It's with purpose. He's not winging out there. Every shot he froze, you know, throws a little left elbow, cheeky left elbow. Left elbow there, Dave. And he's just the worst type of opponent you could ever be locked in a ring with.

He's got no fear for what you're doing. Steps forward, turn south. It doesn't matter because Spinks is just trying to get away. And the punches that Spinks are throwing, I just like stay away from me, punches. They're not, I'm trying to win the fight punches. How long can I last punches? And it's interesting as they break up here, Steve. You'll see Tyson.

He makes Spinks miss with a right hand. See, it was calculated. He's too often dismissed. It's just an out-and-out brawler. And he comes here now with a left-up-cutt and the right hand to the body. Brilliant left-upacupacut, right-hand to the body. There's only a minute gone in the fight here. and Michael Spinks is down already.

And credit to Spinks, when Capuccino gets to the mandatory eight count and waves them back in, he goes in with a right hand. But again, Tyson gets there first with his own right hand. And Spinks is down flat on his back with his head beneath the bottom rope. His eyes have disappeared into his forehead

and he's going to struggle to beat the count here, David. The short left of right hand, you could barely see it. You could barely see the shots, but they were absolute thunderous punches thrown from such a short. They weren't big looping shot. It was just crisp, short, punch it. I think it was the left hook and right upper cut,

sort of come right across, or both on the chin, just cleaned him out. And that version of Mike Tyson, I think is about as devastating as it can be. You know, he looked so prime, so good with Rooney in his corner. He was obviously had a good team. And I think this was the last time we really saw the best.

This was the best I feel, Mike Tyson, and there ever was. Well, Tyson insists that was the best. He insists that was his greatest performance. And people that were ringside, people whose judgment are valued, men that have been worrying the Tyson business already and stayed in the Tyson business

as media people are boxing people. They all seem to agree. That was, I mean, and when you watch aspects of it, you know, and I will see replays and perhaps we'll go it again, every single thing he does is right. And I actually don't think, watching it, I don't think,

does anything wrong. I don't think there's anything else Spinks could try. He tries about five or six right hands off the ropes. He's got to try and get Tyson's attention. There's no good trying to throw jabs as you're going backwards. Tyson's underneath them. So I don't see there's anything else Spinks could have done, Mike. I don't know what you think.

No, he went back into range. I don't know what he went back expecting to happen. He threw a right hand, maybe out of instinct. His head was probably buzzed from the left upper cut, hurt with a body shot, and his equilibrium's completely gone, completely bamboozled and, you know, you could have counted to 20. He wouldn't have been able to stand up and fight back.

But that, for me, was this conclusive knockout. And there was no luck there. There was no lucky shot. It was just one human being significantly stronger pastor, just superior in every aspect. And those things, unfortunately, never fought again after this. And who would have blamed him? It's interesting, David. you say there about how you couldn't understand why Spinks stepped forward and it was probably just instinct.

And then we saw when the second shot landed from Tyson and Spinks went down for the second time, when he got up, he actually fell over again in the way that Trevor Burbank did on the night that Tyson won the world title. I remember the referee that night, Mills Lane saying every punch Tyson through had good night written on it. And, you know, that long-lasting effect where Spinks thought he could get up. Burbik thought he could get up. And Burbik got up twice and fell twice. So it got knocked down three times by the same punch. When you get hit sometimes of a shot that you don't see.

And it just takes everything out of your system. I've been hit a few times like that. Where no matter what your brain's telling your body to do, there's a disconnect. It disconnects your brain to your nervous system to your body. you can no longer deal with it. And watch his shot. Short, crisp shot. Left hook, right upper cut.

Both of the shots land. Don't look that big there. I think there's another angle. You see it. Both of the shots land. The left hook was significant and the right upper cut was significant. And Spinks, the shot he threw was a good shot.

His chin was tucked behind, his shoulder. What he did was correct. He didn't do anything wrong here. Watch this here. Watch this here. Watch this. Left hook to the head and right uppercat. There was nothing wrong with what Spinks did. He was just fighting.

a man on this night who was as unbeatable as I can I can ever remember seeing a heavyweight. And it was just, it was, it was, he's, she's so tuned in to what he's doing here, Mike Tyson. Every ounce of flesh of him is built for battle, is built for fighting. And that was unleashed on poor old spinks in a matter of, you know, less than a second, those two crisp shots. Either one of those shots was enough to knock him out, but he hit with two in close succession. and it was, as Mills Lane would say, it was good night. It's just one of those perfect shots

where Tyson's got his left foot almost between Spinks's legs. The punches are moving. Punches started its trajectory. He's already spun round from the left hook. Spinks is walking onto it. It doesn't travel. It's one of those classic Rocky Marciano-style shots. It travels about seven or so inches.

However, if Spinks had been about two foot away, it would have still knocked him out because that punch was thrown with bad intentions along every single station on that knockout route, whether it stopped at station one, station two or station three. That punch was going and going and going and going. That's why he goes down the way he does. You know what's amazing, Dave, and I know this, Mike,

is that there were a lot of people who thought that Spinks could have got up. They doubted that he was as hurt. And Frank Cabuccino, thankfully, was brilliant on this. He said, I was looking at his eyes. His eyes were way back in his head. I said to myself, this guy is hurt. Frank Cabuccino came to Spinks's assistance because there were an awful lot of people at the time,

at the time questioning whether or not Spinks, we knew he was petrified, we knew he was scared, and whether or not he decided to stay on the floor. That is, that's a brutal crowd to try and satisfy. If people think you're faking that. You've got to give him credit as well. You've got to give Michael Sprins get it. He walked back into fight.

He probably knew deep down, it's kind of a Custer's last stand thing where let me just give you one. He could have ran. He could have just got on his toes. But what was the point? What would have been the point? He might have to just, you got one bullet left in your gun.

Just fire it. And that's what he did. He threw his best shot. And that's it. And, you know, he can say he went out with an empty tank, all bullets, everything in the gun, and that was it. So, you know, anyone who says that he didn't give it 100% there with the situation he was in,

that don't understand boxing and is not a purist. And another factor I think that was overlooked, David, because of the blazing nature of his quick wins. And this was his 16th win in 35 fights in the first round. But one of the first shots he landed, it might have been the first shot that he landed cleanly, was a right hand to the body. And then it was a right hand to the body

after the left upper cut that floored Michael Spitz for the first time. Really good work to the body. And that variation again confused so many of his opponents who weren't used to taking body shots. Yeah, there was an era of heavy. heavyweight boxing, one of my favorite era, and there wasn't that many body shots. You can go back.

I leave rarely through body shots. You know, foreman, foreman love to soften his men up with body shots. But it wasn't a thing then. I don't know why it is. I think Mike Tyson really exclusively worked to break his opponents down with body shots early. He fought like a middleweight. He had a middleweight style.

He didn't have the traditional try and tested 80s heavyweight style, 70s, 80 heavyweight style. He formed a new style. It was like he saw what Joe Frazier did and brought it into the 80s, from the 70s to the 80s. And it was something people weren't prepared for.

You know, when you got the heavyweights leaning back on the ropes of high-held guard, Mike Tyson will rip your body to bits. He'll break your ribs. He'll make you urinate blood. He's that type of heavyweight who blast the body in a heavy weight. So that left hook to the body

and the right hook to the body after the left upper gut to the head was a shot. Heavy weights weren't throwing. That's probably one of the first time you'd have seen a heavyweight in a heavyweight championship fight throw that particular shot and it was from a south-horse stance. As well, we threw it there and turned to the side and threw a left hook, sort of right hook to the body from a south-ball start. Very few heavyweights had ever seen that type of stuff. So, yeah, I can understand why he was able to wipe a spring sense so conclusively. Yeah, all over in 91 seconds, one of the quickest wins in heavyweight championship history.

But just reflecting on some of what we've seen there, David. I know. noticed that within the first 30 seconds or so, Michael Spinks threw a pretty razor sharp right hand that had done enough damage against many of his previous opponents. He was unbeaten in 31 fights coming in here, but Mike Tyson just slipped underneath and threw a right hand of his own. And I think it's that ability to make his opponent miss, I think was so undervalued in Mike Tyson. And what happened there was, you know, to take your phrase that Leon's Michael Spinks at that time, then after that, started to throw punches that didn't really have any kind of venom in them. And at one point, he actually just lent into Mike Tyson, was too

scared to throw any kind of punch for fear of Mike Tyson making him miss and then making him pay. Yeah, I think one of Mike Tyson's biggest weapons that nobody ever talks about was his defense. He was very difficult to hit with a clean punch. Very few fighters had the ability to absorb Mike Tyson early onslaught to be in the fight, to mix it up. I think the best fight, the best tactics anyone's ever applied with Tyson is Avanda Holyfield

because he was willing to stay in the pocket and punch with Tyson. I don't think there's been anyone else he's fought who was able to stand and trade blows with Mike Tyson. Spinks just wasn't prepared to stand to take a shot and throw one back. Holyfield could.

Holyfield would take your hook here and throw his own hook back. Unfortunately, Spinks didn't have that skill set. He was more of a long range, jabbit long range. So when he realized Mike Tyson was slipping his shots and countering him, it forces your opponent to stop punching. And that's what Mike Tyson did. He forced his opponents to stop punching because he'd counter punch him so quickly, so crisply and so hard that they just thought, I just need to survive until Mike Tyson slows down maybe. Let's wait until round six or seven. But by then, they're already on the canvas,

half unconscious. But David, everyone, everyone, or the good trainers at this time, Eddie Fudge himself, you know, he talked, he sat down, it was in the corner with Spinks, he sat down with the American writers that week, and he explained how to beat Tyson. A, you needed to be brave, but not foolish, but, but, and then B, you needed to get through the first four or so rounds. So, so everyone knew, but it's, you know, we all know how to beat Floyd Mayweather. You put him under pressure and you hurt him and you push him back. It's easy, it, knowing how, knowing how to beat someone and putting it into practice. I know it to beat you,

Seyne Bolt, run under nine and a half seconds, but... Absolutely! Absolutely! So, in all fairness, what Tyson, and you're absolutely right, and Mike's absolutely right, and Tyson talked about it. In fact, he tried to talk about it at the post-fight press gomers. He tried to say to the guys, you know,

first of all he said, I shouldn't even be talking to you guys, you hate me, you hate my wife, you hate my mother-in-law, you hate my manager, and all, you hate my promoter. And he said, what you don't do is you don't give me any credit for anything other than knocking people out. You don't give me credit for my boxing skills. He tried that at midnight and it didn't resurface again for about 10, 10 years. So collectively, we can all pat ourselves on the back. Because right now,

with the passage of time, we all acknowledge it was a great defensive fighter. But there was no one at that time writing the type of stuff that we're talking about now. All they talked about was annihilation, annihilation, and that pit bull fighting spirit. It took Buster Douglas to actually taken on store. People just think Buster Douglas beat Tizer. Watch the fight again. Mike Tyson was all over him. You know, it was really, he put him down, he hurt him. It was only because Buster Douglas' heart was so big and he put it on the line and he really, really

went back at him. It's the only reason you have to be able to absorb so much punishment to have any chance against him. If you're not, if your spirit isn't strong, you can be physically strong, many strong. If you don't have the heart, if you're deep, the spirit isn't about winning, you can't beat. Mike Tyson, but it's the mindset of a winner of a champion that very, very few people have when the going gets

tough. And it took, once Buster Douglas showed the blueprint of how to beat Tyson, you've got to break his heart. It became possible and people believe they could do it. Once the four-minute mile was broke, everyone started breaking it. And up until at this stage, he was as unbeatable as you can ever imagine

any fighter in history ever being. On this night, I can't see any argument to say on this night this guy would have beat him easy. No. You're going to say Prime Lennox, Prime Ali, Prime Listen, whoever you say, they're going to have one of the hardest nights of their life

against this guy. And everybody knew it at this time. And no one had, there was no blueprint to beat him, Tyson, on this night. It was only two the Bustard Doug this night that everyone started growing a bit of confidence and coming with a real game plan. But, you know, at this stage, we're seeing one of the great, this

This was one of those devastating performances from any heavy weight, a heavy heavy heavy weight in history. Do you think that performance there, David, would have beaten Buster Douglas and would have beaten Evander Holyfield and we know what was going on in his life. You know, in between those two fights,

he served a prison sentence, of course, but... It would have beaten Buster Douglas. I'm as confident I'd have put a lot of money on that. He would have beaten Buster Douglas on that night because even a very faded Tyson with all the life issues he had at that time, nearly beat Buster Duffington was actually on the canvas for more than 10 seconds at one stage

in that fight. So in my opinion, that version of Tyson would have took him out in two or three rounds. Evander Holyfield, different story. I view Avandah Holyfield and always have done as a superior fighter to Mike Tyson in all departments. I believe Holyfield would have done what Holyfield did in their first fight in this fight. I just believe Avanda Holyfield is just one of the greatest ever heavyweights. And he was a small heavyweight. He was a small heavyweight. He was a guy who had heart, he had a termination, he could be hurt, he could take body shots, he was perfectly conditioned. And I was, I'm gutted that their fight didn't happen before Tyson got in prison because I would, I fancied Avander Holyfield to beat him then, when he was still,

when he was still kind of Mike Tyson. You know, when they did fight a few years later, Holyfield was a massive underdog, but everybody then said, oh, but Tyson was over the hill when he lost. I would always believe that Avander Holyfield had the style to stay in the pocket and punch with Tyson, Because no one ever punched with him. Everybody ran away from him. But Holyfield Star was fighting at Cruiserweight. He had some amazing battles, 15 round battles at Cruiserweight. He was accustomed to it.

They were the same height. They were the same sort of physical size. And Holyfield, condition-wise, heart-wise, spirit-wise, I just think he would have always had Mike Tyson's number. It's an unpopular thing to say. But I just, Holyfield, for me, obviously, the only other cruise weight in history to go up in the heavy eye, I followed in his footsteps,

The second man, be cruiserweight and heavyweight champion. But I just love Avandaholefield. And I love the way he could deal with that particular style. And he showed it in the first fight, in the Holyfield, Tyson won. You know, he showed it. And he showed it again in the second fight.

You know, I just believe he was a better technical boxer than Mike Tyson was. So a question for both of you, if we agree that what we've been watching here, going back to June 1988, is the very best of Mike Tyson. Where does that Mike Tyson belong? in the list of all-time heavyweight greats. Taking into account what did happen later on

when against Buster Douglas, against Evander Holyfield twice, he was asked serious questions and couldn't find the answer. And if the ability to overcome adversity is a hallmark of a great champion, does he belong in the list of the greats? Against that, we heard your excited tones earlier on, David, and I was coaching at the time at the Ling Club in South East London, and not far from your club and Steve's club, the Fitzroy Lodge at the time.

And the youngsters coming to the door came in a torrent, more so than they did earlier on when Lloyd Hunnigan, a couple of years earlier, a local South London boy had won a world title in shocking fashion against Donald Curry. Mike Tyson had a greater effect on our club than Lloyd Hunigan did. So with that in mind, you know, if he's having that impact all around the world, surely he belongs in the top 10. But the argument against it, as I say, is on those nights when he was really asked to find something, he didn't.

So where does he rank for you too? Well, I'll go first. And I slightly disagree with Dave. Listen, I think Holyfield and Tyson is always going to be a hard fight. I just have a feeling that what we saw that night for 91 seconds, I think we saw a pure heavyweight. I think we saw a man then that could trouble any heavyweight in history. I'm not saying he's going to beat them,

knocked them out and destroyed him in 91 seconds. But I think that man there can beat any heavyweight at any of their peaks, at any of their primes in any of their times. I'm convinced of it. So I think that that Tyson, I think that Tyson can beat Holyfield. I think he might have just been too sharp. Plus he was a lot smarter than people giving,

as we've discussed, a lot of people giving credit for. So that Tyson might belong with the greatest on great nights, the best Ali, the Ali from the end of the six. is the best Lennox Lewis, the best Holyfield, the best Riddick Bow, the man that no one wants to talk about, but we all acknowledge now, was a great fighter. Unfortunately, where he went after that, with each indignity, with each calamity, and with each disgrace, and with each bizarre ending to various fights, he starts to issue himself with an exit

warrant from any list because of what happened later in life. But just briefly for that night, 19, 91 seconds on June 27th in Donald Trump's Atlantic City. Boy, oh boy, that was a fighter that could go anywhere. Yeah, I think that particular Mike Tyson had a chance to beat anyone. But I would have liked to have seen that Tyson we saw that night be pushed in round six, seven and eight, where we had to go soul surgeon. because I don't know whether he could have turned it around then. I don't know because we never really saw it.

The only time we saw it where he really needed to was against Buster Douglas. And it didn't. How many fights did he have where he was behind on points where he got put down hurt and came back? That's the question. Okay, if he fights Ali and hits Ali in the first round as Ali as Ali on the ropes and finish them off,

okay, he could beat Ali. But if Ali box his head off and gets him tired, ties him up, taunts him, gets him missing, makes him pay, does Tyson have the mental capacity and the mental fortitude to get through that problem? I haven't seen him get through many problems, ever. It was either,

Mike Tyson was knocking you out, one or the two. He was never a fight that I can remember where it was Tyson, oh yeah, yeah, Tyson having to travel, and he's having a problem, and he brings it back around. At the moment he started to lose

or it started to get tough, it seemed to go the other way. You know, Buster Douglas, Holyfield, twice, even Danny Williams. You know, obviously that's way further down when he was completely washed up. But so was Danny Williams at the time, if you really think about it. No one gave him a chance. Many fighters show Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, they've all had tough fights where they've been on the brink of losing and found a way to win. I've never seen that happen with Tyson.

That's just the way I see it. And I find it hard to say someone's one, I find it hard to say someone's in the top five of all time. if they'd never had a fight which they were losing that they came back to win. I just fight, you can't just be a non-top fighter and win all the fights you've won

and never really suffer punishment and pain and come back and find a way to win. That's the way I see. You get where I'm coming from, Steve. Yeah, absolutely. I take that on board, but I'm going to throw something else out there that I've never read and I've never heard disgust.

How about this, Mike and Dave? How about this? How about if he'd have stayed being that Mike Tyson? If he'd have stayed with Rooney. Because we all know as great as what Buster Douglas did, Dave, in the ring in Tokyo that night. We knew the man in the opposite call, even though he dropped Douglas legitimately for over 10 seconds and was still dangerous. We knew he wasn't there. His head wasn't right.

He was all over the place. He hadn't trained. He hadn't sparred. So what if we still had a brilliant Tyson with Kevin Rooney controlled? What if we had him? Because he was meant to fight Holyfield the following October on November, 89. What if they'd have met then? What if we'd have had a different Tyson?

Because that's what I think we also need to discuss here, is that it's not the same Tyson going forward. So would he have panicked like he did against Douglas? Would he have fallen apart like he did against Holyfield, like he did against Lewis and even Danny Williams? Had he still been that Mike Tyson with Rooney? You know what? We haven't got enough time of discussing it. We'd be here all night, all day, all day. I definitely, you're right, Steve.

If Mike Tyne, I'm, I put Mike Tyson. into a character with the way his life panned out. But if he would have had the same team around him, which got him into that shape and would have to continue to have the fights that he had, he would have grown, he would have become a better version of that. If he's 21 there, he's a baby in boxing terms. He was only going to get better, only going to get better and better.

But what happened was he peaked at 21 and didn't get any better than that. He got worse. Every fight, he got worse and worse. He'd be less training, less sparring, had less discipline, had more money, different women, this and this and this, and he just got worse and worse and worse until he lost. So the version of Tyson that lost to Buster Douglas

was a significantly worse fighter than the fighter we just witnessed there with Spinks. But if you're right, Steve, if he wouldn't have fell off, fell off, if he would have had ruin in his corner the same team, he had people looking after him, investing his money correctly, looking out for him. He could have been number one without a doubt. Without a doubt, I think he could have been number one. And that's the ice on, it's true.

And another, what if, what if Custamato hadn't died in 1985 before Tyson even became world champion? Because it did seem back then that Custamato was able to control Mike Tyson's mind as well as everything that he did in the ring. But then again, you know, as Tyson got older and admitted to having this kind of addictive personality, could anybody have kept control of the man that he became, the lunatic that he became? it's hard to know. But we cannot deny, though, David,

even now there are young boxers going into gyms who still marvel at what Tyson did in the days that we're talking about and on nights like the one that we've just watched through. And you almost turned into a kid right at the start of the show when you were talking about your memories as an eight-year-old. But there are still young boxers in gyms now talking about Mike Tyson.

Even in a very strong era of heavyweight boxing now, people are still year for the great days of Mike Tyson. It's almost as if there's this perception that he was far, far greater than he was because of that knockout highlights real. People wanted that.

People loved the artistry and the pure boxing of Muhammad Ali. They appreciated it. They loved it from Larry Holmes as well, the East Assassin, the Jabbley. People wanted brutality. People wanted violence. They wanted pure, unadulterated,

obliteration of opponents. And that's what Mike Tyson brought to the table. He just came in there, no socks, no gown, no sequins, no, just literally, he was just all about damage. And it connected with people. People feared it. People wanted to be that guy. People wanted to walk into the pub and everyone go, he's in here.

But no one was. Only Mike Tyson was that man who could walk in any pub, any bar, walk down the street. And every single man's like, oh, I don't. I'll stay away from this guy. He was the most feared man on the planet. Far none, no one could ever compare with that type of intimidation. And it really connected with people. Everybody wants to be the big I am,

and he was one of the biggest I am in the history of the Earth. But that was one of those nights that, you know, it's the reason we've covered it today that was really special in the history of the heavyweight division. And as we were looking on at ringside and seeing the camera time and again focus on Donald Trump, who could have known, and maybe people there would have known, that in 30 years' time, he would be the president of the United States.

And one postscript from the fight, in 2015, Donald Trump was inducted into the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame. And the citation said for turning a small town into the mecca of boxing. With his casinos that allegedly never made a penny on any single night, Perhaps this was the one exception, June 27th, 1988. What's really interested is that Michael Buffer is one of Donald Trump's biggest critics on Twitter, but here he was back in 1988, giving him the buildup of all buildups. It's almost like the Muhammad Ali, you know, and there's also Muhammad Ali. He weren't a bad fight.

And Donald Trump! You've got to love it. What a night. I mean, 91 seconds, I wasn't joking when I started talking about three hours ago. This fight is just full of so many stories. We've barely scratched the surface of the Robin, Gibbons, Ruth Roper, double act, which was its own freak show. They were calling conferences in the same buildings and hotels as Tyson and Spinks.

What a time to be a heavyweight. Oh, what a time. What a time to be a fight fan, even if you're only an eight-year-old David Hay in deep South London watching it. And back then, David, when you and your dad were talking about Mike Tyson fighting Frank Bruno, it did happen next time around. But even then, Tyson started to show signs of vulnerability. And I think, as you said right at the beginning, what we've just been talking about,

the night that we've just watched over again was the night in the career of Mike Tyson, the night when he truly was one of the most fearsome heavyweight champions of all time. That's what we pay for. That's what people pay up to $20,000 per seat for that type of drama, that type of intensity, that feeling of uncertainty of fear. You're fearing for someone. particularly if you there to you, imagine being a Michael Spinks fan on that night sitting there, ringside, and you're watching Tyson comes up with an eerie music playing.

You probably don't even realize the music playing, you just feel it, and you see the look on Tyson, you're thinking, oh, what's going to happen here? This is horrible. But you never know. What it needs to do is land one shot. You feet, not really. And it's just, this is it. That's why, how many boxing fans, as you said, so many people became interested in boxing because of Mike Tyson. And still to this day, he's been retired for so long, but they still, you see him shaping up like him. They wear the Mike Tyson T-shirts. He's more than, he's more than just a boxer. He's someone who came from the gutter and went to the top in the biggest and baddest way. And he's mingled with royalty and everybody wanted to be around Mike Tyson, Michael Jackson,

Eddie Murphy. Everybody wanted to be in the team, the Mike Tyson team, because he was the team to be with at the time as he undefeated the scariest most intimidating team ever and um you know i'm a huge huge fan of mike tyson you know as he said what he's done in the ring outside of it the very even the fact that now he's a massive ambassador for so many positive things now and you know what he's got he's got a great podcast that he does and he's you know he's mellowed right out now he's chilled that guy from then is a different guy that's around now and you know he can reflect on it now you know objectively look at that man and he looks a bit as a as a little bit as a little bit as a a different human being.

And it's nice to see that he's, he's sort of matured and grown up and all the crazy stuff that he's been through in his life with the Scraggs of the law and ups and downs. He seems to be in a settled place now. No, he's no reason,

but he's still white Tyson. When you see him, it's still white Tyson. No matter, he's lost a bit of muscle bass, but you still think, he's still got a chance against anyone. He's still got that,

he's still got that good stuff. You know, and, you'll be one of my favorite heavy weights of all time. But not only way he did the ring outside the ring, the fact that he stimulated the boxing economy. If it wasn't for Mike Tyson, would we be here now doing interviews now?

We don't know. We can't be sure of that. Boxing made the mask. They might have just disappeared. You know, he really bridged the gap and really brought it out there to the masses. And that lasting legacy of Mike Tyson, as you say, David, still often gets the loudest ovation on the big fight nights.

And that's why we traced back to the 27th of June 1988 in his remarkable 91 second win against Michael Spinks. Thanks for joining us. We'll be back with more great fight nights on five live boxing with Costello and Bunce. Costello and Bunce's greatest fights.