5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - How long until Joshua fights Fury or Wilder?

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

How long will boxing fans have to wait to see Anthony Joshua against the other two big names in the heavyweight division, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder? Mike and Steve break down the politics and the timings issues that could get in the way. Also, more reaction to Andy Ruiz's excuses for losing to Joshua, a preview of Daniel Dubois upcoming fight and an appreciation of the importance of amateur boxing clubs.

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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. And just a note before we start today's show, for logistical reasons, we had to record this week's podcast at the end of last week. so the news that Tyson Fury has split from his trainer Ben Davison and the wins for Terrence Crawford, Teofamo Lopez and Michael Conlon in New York will be covered in next week's show which will also be a review of the highlights of the boxing year 2019. As ever, thanks for listening. So a week on from Saudi Arabia.

Welcome again to Five Live Boxing with Costello-Ambands back in the UK and still the after-mile Steve of Anthony Joshua versus Andy Ruiz Jr. with the excuses, reasons somewhere in between for both of them. Talk about sitting on fence, climbing on fences, climbing over fences, digging holes under fences. Ruiz was terrible, Ruiz was a disgrace. Joshua was a genius. Joshua was terrible.

God, blimey, everyone's getting everybody. Some people even criticising camels. And the eternal dilemma is, was it Anthony Joshua looking so good or Andy Ruiz Jr. looking so bad? and it seems as like the weight of opinion has come down on Ruiz, rather than, as we described Anthony Joshua as performing a masterclass, it seems like to me the general consensus is that it was more about Ruiz being so awful. And that's a pity, and we'll look at that again.

I know that lots of people have contacted us. But first things first, Mike, don't you feel like you've been in rehab since you landed at Heathrow 48 hours after the fight? We haven't been together. We haven't been in the desert. We haven't had any date to any kind of. a day. We haven't even had any bad food or good food. What's more? We haven't done a podcast. We have not done a single podcast. It's seven days. I've been shaking. I've been waiting out here

since Tuesday afternoon. Five days are cute to get into the building a day. So desperate was like I get back by a mic, back with Young Jack and back in your company to talk. Also, I'm going to learn my voice here. I've done about you. But unless there's some really good messages on iTunes and some really good emails, they're not getting really good answers. I need something to inspire me because I know what I saw in the desert and so do you. There are and there's one in particular who's made a point where I was listening and reading and thinking that's something I wish that I'd said. But I think we've gone from, it feels like we've gone from being four round fighters to

six round fighters, eight round fighters, gone all the way out to championship. Back to 15. Coming back down, yeah, to the more routine affairs. But today we're going to look at some of the issues we've had to overlook over the past couple of weeks because of the sheer magnitude of the fight in Saudi Arabia and everything around it and what it meant for the heavyweight division. We'll be talking about Carl Frampton later on, about Dillian White and his drugs case having been resolved. And we're going to hear from Martin Bowers, the trainer of Daniel Dubois, who's right on the cusp of the top end of the heavyweight

scene and who fights later this week on top of the bill at the copper box arena. But as we were saying in Saudi Arabia, we are so grateful to the welter of responses that we've had from you over the past couple of weeks, mainly around the Joshua and Ruiz fight, but other issues as well. We'll start, Steve, with the events in Saudi Arabia. And we've had, as I say, many, many emails. This one, Steve, from Wayne Shirley, says, Re, Ruiz Jr, I'm with Mike on this and can't believe he came out post-fight to admit he hadn't trained properly. The moment he said that, I took my mind back to those two YouTubers who fought a few weeks ago and got all sorts of stick. Both Logan Paul and KSI trained harder, were more dedicated and disciplined,

and showed the sport more respect than the current heavyweight champion of the world, question mark two, exclamation marks. I just can't comprehend it. It baffles me, and my opinion of him has completely changed because of it. He says, P.S., there has to be a Netflix series in the making for you to Buncey and Costello travel to exotic remote parts of the world and watch and dissect a classic boxing match. Listen, I'll expand it, a classic sporting event. I mean, you know, no disrespect, Mike.

You could go and watch, you know, in the middle of the darkest, deepest Amazon. Imagine going there to watch the 1966 World Cup football final. I mean, producer Jack's laughing. So that's a winner. I am telling you, that's a winner. And then you could do one of those great, I don't know, one of those great Arthur Ash tennis finals, I don't know, 30,000 feet in the Himalayas. That's a natural trademark that.

Put an elastricht by it. Listen, one or two points there. Absolutely spot on. I mean, I thought there's some really valid points there. We were all disappointed when he talked about, you know, that he hadn't trained. And since then he's come up with, I ate too much, I didn't train, I was on, I was committed. And I'm going to hold our hands up again, just like we were the worst two detectives. The worst two detectives in New York, Mike, in May, late May, you know, you've got no, we'd both be sacked. We'd both be sacked if we were a policeman, because we didn't pick up any of the signs.

There was a couple of lines from Manny Robles in the start of the week, who's the trainer of Andy Ruiz. And it was clear, if you look at those lines. It was clear. He barely seen him in the gym. And he had a name tag on so that Robles would recognise him. Mike, it was disgraceful. But it was with retrospect. Because no one said outright, this is a thing.

This is the classic after time thing. Nobody said the day before the fight on the day of the fight, hand on heart, he's not trained a lick. He's as fat as a barrel, basic language. And he's going to lose every single round and Joshua's going to jab his head off. So for all the people that knew, you know what I think, oh, I knew, I knew Joshua would win. You've got to tell me, you've got to describe exactly what happened.

Even Richie Woodrow at the end of the fight, who worked as co-coms. He said, well, I got that wrong because he'd picked Joshua, but he picked Joshua in five or six rounds. So even Richie, nothing to prove in the world, he held his hands up and said he got it wrong. People that didn't make predictions, they're holding their hands up and said, I told you so. And on the same theme, Steve, Russell Burns says, I can honestly say that during fight week, Andy Ruiz dropped several levels in my estimation. and to my knowledge, you guys were the only pundits-stroke journalists that acknowledged this also. He was a very engaging character who was smiley and likable, but to turn up to what could have been the fight of the year in such bad shape

was disrespectful to the titles, to boxing and to Anthony Joshua, almost arrogant. And I guess, Steve, that points to the excuses that he said, or the reasons that he gave straight afterwards at the press conference where he said he'd been partying and didn't take it. seriously enough and that's that's offended a lot of people. I think rightly so Mike because no one wanted to really acknowledge and I'm not patting us on the back. No one really wanted to acknowledge it. I think that guy was right. I mean we were quite strong on it but no one really wanted to acknowledge the flip side of what we were seeing

with our eyes and there's a great little line. You know when I left you on the roof Mike looking at the stars looking at that flag that was the size of two football pitches I'm back into Saudi vernacular everything's going to be quadruple. So you're up on the 50s. 15th floor of that purpose-built arena, purpose-built press centre, looking at that flag, talking to Joshua, under the stars, under the moon. I went downstairs to find Ruiz. And do you remember when we came up, Jack and I was sort of shaking the heads? Because what did he do?

Remember he held that pillow over his stomach? Oh, you said, yeah. But he was holding a pillow. Of course, what he was doing was hiding his stomach. So he holds a pillow, like a baby holding a comforter. And we both thought it was weird, and I wasn't going to say, Andy, what's the story with a pillow, brother? It's a bit weird, isn't it?

You got a heavyweight chairman of the world, And I don't it? you're getting 10 million, but I can't help but notice you're caressing a pillow that you're holding across your stomach. So I let it slide. But I did tell you, and we got on the podcast, well, of course, that's why, and a few people have tweeted, that's why he had the pillow over his belly, Bunsey. You should have spotted that. Well, I did spot it. But sometimes the most obvious things you miss. So when Anthony Joshua's got a stye and he's got a runny nose at the way in, you were saying, yeah, you know, I suppose you could see it that way. Well, of course you could see it that way. But you don't, you almost don't want to believe it. Because that's too

obvious, isn't it? Hiding a pillow across his belly? To hide his belly? Well, there you go. And in terms of excuses, Steve, and reasons for losing a fight, remember we were in Hamburg when David Haye lost to Vladimir Klitschko and stepped up onto the

press conference table and showed everybody his big toe. And you and I were doing that comic comic shout from the back of the room. No, and he did. And Vladimir was saying, come on, David, let me see. And Vitalis at the back of the room near us. In fact, near where we were standing, and going, laughing like that. And he gets up and I think, he's not going to stand all the way up.

And of course, what he did, if you remember rightly, he had, like, the worst sandals on. He had the worst ever, like, you'd think David might get up and he's got a pair of really fancy Gucci leather sandals. No, he had a pair of sandals on, look like fake sandals that you buy somewhere on the beach at South End for about 99P. They were the worst cheapest sandals in the world. And there was this semi-swollen tone.

Then Vlad buried him totally said it looks like a bee has stung you. Oh, Mike, it was. Not only excuse, that was pure drama and comedy gold, wasn't it? And all the famous ones, Jack Dempsey back in the 20s when his wife asked him why he was looking so bad after the fight. He said, Honey, I forgot to duck. And there was a hilarious one in it, a great book I've got, which is a gem of a book, put together by Harry Mullan, the old boxing news about quotations. It's unbelievable all that book, isn't it? There's one there from Randall Tex Cobb, the old heavyweight who got smashed the pieces by Larry Holmes.

And as an aside, after the fight, he was asked, will there be a rematch? And he said Larry's hands couldn't stand it. That's what... We might be stuffed here because we might be stuffed here because we might do 20 minutes now in Randall Texcob. There's another line in that book where he's talking to pals, Randall Text Cobb, and he says, I once got knocked out by a bantam weight.

And his pals, hey, how come you're a heavyweight? And he said, well, six of my mates were swinging him around by his heels at the time. It's at the time, is the king. At the time. I once got knocked out by a Mexican bantamweight. How was that? Well, six my mates were swinging here.

Oh, that's just glorious, man. Randall Texcob, take a look. You're going to love every second of him. Back to Joshua Ruiz, Steve, and reasons and excuses. Stuart Coles, who watched in an Irish sports bar in Rome, as disagree with me about the weight and the performance of Ruiz. He says it can't be disputed that Ruiz's immobility contributed to the ease with which Joshua was able to deal with him.

Over the course of the fight, yeah, I agree with that, but I'm not having it dilute the quality of Joshua's. performance. He had to overcome a huge psychological mountain having been knocked down four times. So I'm ready to praise Joshua rather than to smash Ruiz. Or even to leave a question mark hanging. That's the key element here, Mike. Some of the people in our business, the trade, either in print on radio, on TV, or anywhere they've managed to do it, maybe it's just online or in some sort of YouTube interview. When they've criticised Joshua for not stepping in and stopping him like X, Y, and Z,

fill in a blank space. No one ever acknowledges what happened in that first fight and what he had to come in that second fight, what he had to overcome to get there, the demons he had to sleep with. Those demons were there. They were pillow-friendly demons. Every single night he turned his head

and he faced more of those demons. Since that night in June, Mike. So people are forgetting that. So it's not just a simple to say, oh, Joshua should have maybe put his foot down for the last two or three rounds. He had the four knockdowns in his mind, constantly. It might be gone now, but it wasn't until the end of the final bill.

Here's someone, Steve, who's a genuine before-timer. UK fan.RJ.T said, calling it now straight after the way in AJ fights long and he can stop Ruiz late or win a boring decision. Mitchell 8585 wrote to say his wife and himself had moved to Australia in August. They've got a huge following for AJ in the casino in the Gold Coast on Fight Night, Fight Morning in Australia, of course. We also heard from DPB 11 Levy's Puppet, The Wraith, Will 1804, close-up magic guy, Hoyle's fitness. Dickie on the radio, Matt Gidley from Manchester, who's now working in the Pacific Island of Guam. Mori Mark 95 disagreed with you, Steve, about the interpretation of Ruiz's weight on one of our podcast,

and he predicted that a prepared Joshua was going to walk through Ruiz. Differing views about Anthony Joshua, Alex Clear, writes to say, Joshua has become a role model not through winning but through losing. I don't think he was given enough credit for how he responded to his Manhattan meltdown. He offered no excuses and graciously accepted the result, fully crediting Ruiz, who for his money has broadly returned the gesture. Talking about Joshua, Steve, we got that interview on the last night before we left Saudi Arabia and before Anthony Joshua left Saudi Arabia saying that he had a serious health issue in the lead-up to that first fight against Andy.

Ruiz Jr. For those who haven't listened to that particular podcast, he was saying how seconds before leaving the dressing room to go on the ringwalk, he was asking one of his camp members to go get a bucket of ice so that he could bury his head in it to freshen himself up and get himself ready for the night. Yeah, we got a nice tidy exclusive there, Mike, and that was down to the fact that four weeks earlier he'd promised to give you full details. What was really smart and Jackard spotted young Jack had spotted this is before he came over to us. up in that restaurant and that golden orb in the first skyscraper in Saudi Arabia every year. When he came over to us, Mike, just before he got to us, he'd already done Sky TV commitments, you know, people that pay him an awful lot of money, done Sky and I think he'd done one of his sponsors. And just before he got to us, Andy Bell, who works with AJ closely, you know, and we have to have a good relationship with.

Andy pulled him aside, and they had about four or five minutes. And I'm not being enough of the time because I said it before he sat down. And I thought, they're not discussing things we might ask him all day. And there's only one thing we're going to ask that's going to cause him a problem. Because the moment you asked him, and he stops looking at you or me, he looks straight out at Andy Bell,

and I think I shout on the podcast. What are you doing looking over there? They're not going to help you. I'm not talking to Andy, we're talking to you. And he gave us enough of an answer, Mike. And it was, you could tell from his tone and his eyes

that whatever happened, whatever that abilitating illness was, whatever it was, whatever the ailment was, needed medical attention. And as he said, it will be in the book, which is,

I suppose, coming out, early next year. But it was clearly, and again, I just want to point out, and one or two people have asked me this, that wasn't an excuse. He's not offered a single excuse. I think that he's going to be able to prove that as fact.

And he's not looking for your sympathy for what happened in New York. Trust me, he's not looking for that. He's just itemizing that there was something wrong, and it wasn't this perfect storm of a dozen little things. It sounds like, seems like it was something a lot more serious. And somewhere between an excuse and a reason, some will say, but for me, I think we will find out a true reason as to why that happened.

This from Scott Claven from the Bronx, Steve, who says that Antony Joshua's future plans, according to us, seemed okay regarding the possibility that he would fight either Usik or Chisora or even Dillian White. These, according to Scott, are bad. Uzik is too small, Chisora is washed up, white is overweight and undisciplined, plus Joshua has beaten him already. And he goes on to say that the only fights, that are truly worthwhile for Joshua right now are against Deonté Wilder or Tyson Fury

that Joshua is not calling these guys out after the recent Ruiz fight, says Scott. He told him to seek him out is really gutless and just bad for boxing in general. Well, it's not gutless. What he was saying was calling them out, which he's done in the past, didn't work. And I think we just have to understand

the boxing politics here. And I can see more of this being an issue down the line. We've just had released the pay-per-view figures for Deonte Wilder against Louis Ortiz. By any measure, they are poor. Now, when you look at the figures that we're hearing about, potentially from Sky Sports Box Office last weekend, upwards of one and a half million,

at 25 quid a throw, that's 40 million pounds into the pot, before you even consider what the Saudis have thrown into the pot, what they get for international television rights, and all the other sources of renew, 40 million pounds from the British pay-per-view alone. This is where the traffic jams start, when Joshua's side quite rightly say that he brings more to the table. Whatever you say on the outside about the sporting contest being absolutely 50-50,

even according to the bookmakers, it's almost even money the pair of them as far as their odds predictions are concerned. But in terms of the business of the fight, Joshua brings more to the table. And just saying wild is a bigger attraction and saying, Fury is a bigger attraction and getting that on TV somewhere, that's not the same. Just saying it is completely an utter and total irrelevancy. Mike, in all fairness,

the main reason he's not going to call out Wilder and Joshua in hours or days after beating Ruiz. It's quite simple. They've got a fight, in theory, set in stone for February 22nd. Bob Aram, minutes after the result was announced, who's Tyson Fury's promoter, he officially announced that we've got a booking at the MGM, which of course is slightly going back on what we'd heard six months ago

where the MGM was booked out for the 20 seconds. So I'm not saying they're going back, but so that fight's books. Tyson Fury spent the entire week when I was out of him in New York, and I was out of him in Las Vegas for the Otto Valley fight, talking about the rematch that the third fight is going to have with Wilder, which is going to be in June. Wilder's also talked about that saying, I can't discuss anything until I've got these two fights with Fury out of the way.

So in all fairness, if Joshua had got out of the ring and saying, I want Wilder, I want Furder, I want Fury, the critics that he's got, sometimes with agendas, they would have gone, he's calling those two out, he knows they're fighting each other. That's what you call an ultimate can't win situation if he don't mind me saying so. Okay. Now, he's got several routes available. The WBO in the last 48 hours or so, about 60 or 70 hours, have changed their rules slightly.

They've given him 180 days to fight Alexander Usik. The suggestion was that Alexander Usik would fight Delboy Derek Chazora, and that perhaps Anthony Joshua would fight a Bulgarian who was meant to fight 18 months ago, two years ago, called Kubrat Pulev. Perhaps they'd be on the same night and the winner of Derek Delboe Chizora and Alexander Usik, which is what that email was about,

would in theory fight Joshua later in the year. Now that creates a situation where people will criticise him for fighting Pulev, criticising probably for fighting the winner of Usik and Chizora, even if it's Ucic, it beats Chizorah spectacular. But the point I was trying to make, Mike, I thought we were all talked out on this We're not, are we?

There we go. I thought I got the plane a week ago, Ritchie Woodrow, and we collapsed into a taxi and fell asleep for two hours. Well, that was it. We're not. That's because one of two people I think have taken,

you know, at November in order, I don't like some of the things I've read. WBO in the last 48 hours or so, Mike, have given Ussick and AJ's people, i.e. Eddie Hearn, Matrum, DeZone, and Sky, 30 days to agree a deal.

30 days to agree a deal. Well, We've already lost two of them, Christmas and New Year's coming up, so we could come back mid-Jan, and we could have it nailed down where we're going next year. I think it's too early for Usik to fight Joshua, and I'll tell you for why. Usik is as good a fighter as he is,

and his dimensions are a lot better and bigger than people imagine, and I think he's smart, and I think he wax enough. Don't get me wrong. But he needs a couple of wins, or he's certainly a big win. So that Derek Del Boy Chizorah, no disrespects the Del Boy. That's an ideal fight for Usik, especially if it's a bit of a gritty brawl and he does a job on Delboe

like he did on Tony Bellew, that kind of thing. That would catapult him into Joshua fight with a little bit more profile. So, how do you say? And I think this is where Joshua, Steve, has actually benefited from being beaten by Ruiz Jr. Because if he beats Ruiz Jr. in June, the fight we've just had would have been against

somebody of the ilk of Kubrat Pula. And he would now be. getting a storm of criticism for taking on those two and still refusing to take on Wilder and Fury, whatever their contractual obligations might be. But talking generally about the heavyweight scene, and we're going to come on to mention Dillian White shortly, Steve. Daddy Pegg says he doesn't completely agree that this is a special time for the heavyweight division. The only quality fight in the last 12 months was the draw between Fury and Wilder. But when you're talking about era, Steve, you're talking about more than a year. And if we go back two and a hundred,

half years to Vladimir Klitschko against Anthony Joshua at Wembley. Since then we've also had the first fight between Deonté Wilder and Luis Ortiz was a cracking heavyweight contest at Dillian White against Joseph Parker, Dillian White against Derek Chazora. So even those those fights beneath the elite level, which was the hallmark of the 1970s era and to a lesser extent the 1990s era with Bo Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Then we're starting to see that the ingredients are simmering there. And if we do move on, to 2021 and the winner of eventually the first second or the first rematch or the second rematch

between Fury and Wilde and then does face Anthony Joshua. We might be coming to that special era. Mike, we might be getting there. We've got the ingredients to get there. We just need to put them all into the same dish and get them mixed up to use a cooking term. And we could have three or four years, terrific. We could.

We could also have some bad times and we could have fights that don't have it. So I'm going to ask you quite straightforward, forward. Will, in the next two and a half years, Joshua fight either wilder or fury before the end of, I don't know, 2021? Yeah, before the end of 2022, I think is more likely. But I do think one of those two fights will happen and maybe the whole round robin will happen as well. And I accept that, you know, I'm open to accusations of naivety here. And I do remember back to missing out on the fight between Riddick Bow and Lennox. Lewis, but I just get the sense that if they can both agree, and it's Joshua who's going to have to be nudged towards the middle here to a 50-50, the Wilder and Joshua fight can be made.

I think you're right. I hope you're right, because that's what makes sense. And that's what's going to get the fans, but I can't keep, I can't help, but remember that until Andy Ruiz separated Joshua from his senses in round three in New York on June 1st, Joshua and Wilder had shared 37 months as world champions Mike and we've done a thing and no one's corrected us online yet no one's correcting me on Twitter, no one's correcting me on person, you've not been able to give me the stats

and other people I trust have not been out of giving me the stats. I can't think of two unbeaten champions being world champions at the same time and not fighting for 37 months. And when people say, yeah but Lewis fought Tyson and one of them wasn't a champion. Listen to what I'm saying. Unbeaten.

Nowhere else to go. 37 months in parallel and not fighting each other. That is unique. The only one that was thrown at me the other night when I was up at Bar Sport in Canuck and I haven't double-checked it

is Darius Mikkelski and Roy Jones. But here's the thing. No disrespect. There was no clamour to get Darius Mikhailski once of Poland and then of Hamburg,

out of Hamburg, to fight Roy Jones. And Roy Jones, well, he didn't have a passport until Putin gave him his Russian one about three years ago.

Let's get that right. Here's the balance then, Steve, to my supposed naivety in talking about, maybe just hoping, rather than talking about Wilder and Fury and Joshua all meeting in some kind of permutation

or combination within the next two and a half years or so. One of the impediments is the thriving domestic scene here. We're going to go on to listen shortly to Martin Bowers, the trainer of Daniel Dubois. He's going to be ready

within a year to 18 months. Joe Joyce is going to be ready within a year to 18 months. Dillian White now is clear again after UKAD withdrew their drugs charge against him. So you've got this potentially thriving domestic scene

and to just throw into the mix as well, Dillian White just last week was re-inserted as the mandatory challenger by the WBC. So again, potentially pushing back that Joshua fight because if there are two fights next year between Wilder and Fury,

Wilder comes out on top, even if Fury comes out on top, he inherits the mandatory obligation. The obligation. So in the early part of 2021, Maricio Suleiman, the president of the WBC, has said that that fight against Dillian White, whoever is the champion, will take place around, that's his phrase,

around February of 2021. So there is yet another impediment, possibly, to the fights between those men taking place, because Dillian White is now right back in the mix. And by then, of course, Only have you got one or two Brits. You mentioned Daniel Dubois. You mentioned Joe Joyce.

Five or six fights on and pushing closer to be, to demand it and getting something. But there are some other Americans recycling. There are some other Americans developing. They're going to be pushing on as well. And that's why, as much as I fancy A.J. will get in the ring with one or both of them, either Fury or Wilder at some point. I just keep seeing it being budged back and pushed back and pushed back and pushed back. And so, you know, what looked a year ago, last November, December, we're sitting in this studio.

Okay. And I'm asking you, when is Joshua going to fight one of those two? And you'd say, probably not next year, i.e. this year, but certainly in 2020. Now we're sitting here, and we're definitely not saying 2020. In fact, we're not really saying positively 2021. We're on 2022. Come on. I mean, we've got, something's got to happen here.

We've got to have something happening. Even if it means Joshua gets stripped of some of those titles and let someone else fight for the WBO, someone else fight for the whatever, and he keeps one of them. And then that could move us, might save us a year. Yeah, I think that's a likelihood, Steve,

and we should also bear in mind that the Ontario is 34 years of age. Now, I accept that you can judge a fighter's age by rounds, hard rounds rather than hard years. And he's had so many knockouts that there isn't that wear and tear on him that there would be on other 34-year-old. old's, but you'll get to the point where he's not going to be improving. And there is the danger

that he gets beaten before Joshua gets to him. We've got one from Dan Montague, Steve, long-time listener of the show about Dillian White, because there was limited mention, he says, of the White fight on the undercard in our podcast from Saudi Arabia. He speaks about how open White's defense was. Granted, he took the fight at very late notice, but he looked slow, overweight, and half the man he was in July when he beat the Colombian Oscar Reh. of course. It looked like the last few months had taken its toll on White mentally. I'd like to hear both your thoughts watching the fight from four feet away. And do you still put White forth behind those top three of Wilder Fury and Joshua? Or has he slipped down the order? Well, I think he might struggle with the movement of Usik. But talking Steve about what Dan was pointing to there, how it's been a very difficult few months for him with dealing with this ongoing UKAD case and nobody knowing what the situation was. It does wreak, Steve, of UKAC being reactive here because when we were in Sheffield and we spoke to Eddie Hearn about this

and I said to him, are you putting the ball in UKAD's court? And he said, well, that's actually a good point. And clearly that was the case because a couple of hours, a couple of days, should I say, before he fought. UKAD came out and said that they'd withdrawn the charge against him because the traces of the banned substance that was found in his system were absolutely minimal and therefore didn't indicate any kind of...

long-term doping? I think that he's been under immense pressure, Dillian. I think he's had his world, and it sounds like a cliche, turned upside down. He was on such a great run, Mike, going back two years, an unbelievable sequence of fights. We've done whole half parts of our pod praising his run, saying, you know, when was there last time a heavyweight

had a run like this, and yet still hadn't had a world title fight? And people couldn't find it, and I couldn't find it. I thought that five or six run, going back to the first Gisora through Heleneas, and all the way through, through Brown, through the Parker fight, great fight, and through rivers, if you don't mind me saying so. I mean, we praised Dillian through the roof

the Monday after the rivers. You know, so I think he's been on a lot of pressure. He's been in trouble with UK and he's now been cleared of the UKF thing. His people have been swearing black and blue till they're blue in the face that he was innocent. And that's perfectly fine. And they're entitled to make those claims.

The bottom line was there was a, U-Q-CAD problem all along. It's now been cleared and resolved and we can move on. But we can't have everybody in the Dealian White business suddenly be coming after-timers and saying, we told you so. Well, because if you'd have been, if the UK had voted the other way in the release they issued on the day of the fight, if I'm not mistaken, or the day before the fight, then they wouldn't be calling us up and saying we were wrong all along.

They'd be screaming, Blue Murder. You can't have it both ways. Dealing White had a problem with a sample. We reported that straight. Now Dillian White's cleared by UK We'll report that straight And nowhere does it say That the sample

Was in any way incorrect They say the sample There was an abnormality with it But it's not enough For him to be prosecuted or ban It's tricky ground And it was a little bit fiery out there One or two members of the Dillian White gang

To be resolved Or maybe it won't be resolved Hey ho, we're all big boys in our business Let's kick on still many emails And iTunes reviews to get through Steve here comes a list. Apologies for it, but so many people

have got in touch we wanted to just thank you for doing so. Paul Jepson, Dam Bam Bam 808. Pompey Lloyd said he liked the interview about the ring in Riyadh

that we did with the ring builder Mike Goodall. Nick Alden, Luke DeFerg and on email and reminder of the address Costello and Bunce at BBC.co.com.

Thank you to Paul Morehouse, Nathan Stokes, Rob Denholm, Steve Lodge, Richard Joy, Carl Davis, Mark Bevan, James Dowling,

Tom Haynes, Ian Forbes, Giles, Raymond, Stuart Wright, Colin Klein, Harry Lister, Graham Simon. So many of you writing out over the course of the last couple of weeks. Some other issues to deal with as well, Steve, away from Joshua and Ruiz. The Callum Smith and John Ryder scorecards are still causing a lot of anger. Giant Haystacks 2019 says, admit it Bunsey, you know the scorecards were a joke for Ryder.

Ant White LFC8 asks was Ryder robbed and GW said that the podcast we did that week immediately after the fight, two days after the fight, one we did live on BBC 5 Live, infuriated me almost as much as the result itself, and GW goes on to accuse us of not wanting to bite the hand that feeds us. Well, you know, listen, for a start, that's just garbage, I'm sorry. We said these scorecards are a disgrace on air. We said these are absolutely dreadful.

This is an outrage. The scores. The fight wasn't a robbery. None of our team that night thought it was a robbery. It was the score totals that were a disgrace, not the fact that John Ryder didn't have his hand raised. And that's not an assault on John Ryder. I thought he thought out of his skin. I thought he pushed Callum Smith,

and we're not going to look at excuses. Callum Smith said after the fight, I didn't feel any fear. I didn't feel that stuff. Not an excuse. Statement of fact. Look like that. John Ryder was brilliant that night.

His corner. were brilliant that night. They just didn't do enough, but they did more than they got credit for. And it's really funny. One of the judges, Terry, Big Tell, who returned, I thought a poor score. And we said it was a poor score.

It's not an attack on Terry. He just got it, I think. He got it wrong on the night. He blanked me when I saw him next, which is really disappointed. I've known him for 30 years. Because it wasn't an assault on him. You get things wrong.

Just like, you know, I can make a prediction, Mike, and I get it wrong. And you'll get 50 people saying, how buncey? What does he know? He got it wrong. It's how big. You get some right. You get some wrong.

I'll tell you what though, Steve, the WBA should at least order a rematch. Given the confusion and the anger that it's created, the WBA really should be given John Ryder another chance. Because so many people in the business feels he deserves at least that. Many feel that he deserves the title. Moving on, Steve, thank you also to Mark Welsh, UK, to Kieran H-76 and Tony Aranello and Moshe 94, Steve, bringing it back to the heavyweights. Have taken issue with our appraisal of Deonté Wilder against Luis Ortiz. when he came from six rounds down, according to most of us, to knock him out in the seventh round.

Not as impressive as we made out. Tony, in particular, says, when we were comparing him to other champions who'd made 10 successful straight defences, other champions on that list had beaten at least one man in about deciding the best heavyweight in the world. And just some general one, Steve, before we move on to hear from Martin Bowers,

the trainer of Daniel Dubois. One veranda has written in. Gareth L. 1980 says Buncey's voice could shatter glass. I was at a sportsman's dinner last week where Paul Mersen was the speaker. Brilliant he was. I met taxi drivers, Gary Ward and Mark and Jamie. And you know when you're on the road, Steve,

you meet people who've got so much knowledge. You want the conversation to him because you know you're going to get shown up. Kyle Weber and his dad we met at the Way Inn in Saudi Arabia. Yeah, great to meet them. Steve Osborne says, Steve, listening to the pod, reminds him of tales his granddad used to tell him about the greats of the past.

That's lovely. Fearless Fernley asks TikTok or Jimmy's corner. when you're in Manhattan. TikTok. Listen, Jimmy's Corner. I'm going to say it now and I'm going to upset people. It's a bit Emperor's New Clothes, Jimmy's Corner.

I've got to tell you, mate. I've always found it a bit Emperor's New Clothes. Hey, ho, there you go. And one last one, the poet Seamus says he loved the Rumble in the Jungle documentary a few weeks back and once won on Hagler against Leonard, which took place all the way back in 1987. There are so many great, great occasions

that we could look back on, and no doubt we will at some stage in 2020. Carl Frant and Steve, while we were away or while we were otherwise engaged with the Anthony Joshua Ruiz buildup and the aftermath. Carl Frampton back on track outpointed the American Tyler McCreery over 10 rounds in Las Vegas. A lot of talk before and afterwards of him staying in that Super Featherweight division meeting Jamil Herring, the American who boxed at London 2012 as an amateur for the WBO Super Featherweight title. A match that can be made as both being looked after now by Bob Aaron.

But I think it was concerning to hear Frampton saying that there. problems with both hands now afterwards. Those hands almost like biscuits and they're not going to get any better. No, and that's what happens when you're a boy puncher. You don't bandage correctly. You just put whatever's in the gym literally around your hands.

And by the time you start being sensible with your bandaging, the problems are there and you're 1415. Joe Calzaki, Nassim Hammett had terrible hands. David Hay, three big punches, those three between them. You know, terrific records. And add Carl to the mix. Carl was a really serious bang.

He still, whacked. hurts now, don't get me wrong, but he was a real banger, remember when he's a little bit younger. And, you know, they didn't look after their hands when they were young, so now their hands are on ration. David Hay's hands were on ration. Nassim Hammond's hands were on ration. That's just, that's just, Joe Kousaik's hands, they were on ration, and now Carl Frampton's hands are on ration. It's not that he hasn't got ten fights left in him. He hasn't got ten fights left in his hands. It's as simple as that, Mike. Well, we bring it back round, Steve, to the heavyweight division. We've already mentioned him

being on the cusp of the elite level right now. Daniel Dubois, 13. fights unbeaten is out at the copper box top of the bill at the weekend against the Japanese Kyoto, Kiotaro Fujimoto. Nobody expecting him to be really extended at this stage of his career. What do you make of his development so far, Steve? I think it was an important fight for him earlier this year in July when he fought for the British title against Nathan Gorman. That, for me, was the kind of marker that takes him on a stride and was like the Gary Mason and Lennox Lewis fight for Lennox Lewis back in 1991. Yeah, I thought that was a great win. I thought that was going to be a lot harder fighting it was and I think Nathan

Gorman thought it might have been a bit of an easier fighting it was, but Daniel did a job and what's more Mike he did the job he said he was going to do. I saw a lot of liked him in that fight. I think he had a really hard 10 rounders against Kevin Johnson last year about 13, 40 months ago I know it went 10 and so he said bolder it's a price there's 10 but he looked in that

fight like he wasn't happy at times and he was really, I did interview him afterwards for BT and he wasn't a happy camper. I mean he worked on a few things since then he worked on maybe bending his knees looking to the body instead of just trying to to crash punches through. I still like him a lot and he's still, he definitely is a 22-year-old working progress.

I like it when he jabs and there's been some testimony over the last couple of weeks from different sparring partners saying, look, don't worry about the right hand. Forget that, he's got a great jab. And originally when he turned pro back in April 2017,

same night as Nicola Adams in Manchester, the big thing was, and I'd got this from Ritchie and McCracken and the other guys at the squad. He's got a great jab. He's a natural jabber. I like that, and I think we might see more of that. Still work in progress,

but I'd like to think he goes, he moves onto something and some tests next year, but he still might not move on next year, might with four or five fights, you know? Is there a rush to move him on when he's still only 22? Yeah, there's that log jam at the top. There's that log jam at the top, and then there's a group of fighters just beneath that

that I think he could be moving towards next year. Yeah, and who knows that at some stage down the line, I think there might be some comparisons to be made against Andy Ruiz Jr. Yeah, I mean, that's a great thing. Ruiz Jr. won't be going anywhere fast. Whatever he hits him with. Now, you know, there's a lot of names out.

I mean, I was looking at some of the names. There's 25, 26, 27 names that you'd have to put in front of him in world boxing, maybe even 30 at the moment. Now, I'm not saying all 30 of those would beat him. But even guys like in Michael Hunter, he saw back in Saudi, Oscar Rivas, who, of course, we saw lose last year to Dillian W. Dominic Brazil, Charles Martin, there's loads of guys in front. And there guys, I think I'd like to see a little bit of that next year.

He fights three or four of those old names, established names next year, and he walks through them with a series of one-two, one-two, because that's about his marching orders at the moment. Then, you know, in a year's time, we might be looking at a guy that might really crack on in an absolutely log jammed, grid-locked heavyweight division, 2021. And we've been to Canning Town to the peacock gym, Steve, to talk to his trainer, Martin Bowers,

and we've come back from Saudi Arabia, and all the talk was of millions of dollars being earned by Anthony Joshua and by Andy Ruiz Jr., both of them with very strong links to their amateur days. Andy Ruiz had 110 amateur fights, very nearly qualified for the 2008 Olympic Games. Anthony Joshua, before setting off for his flight home from Riyadh was talking about how he was going to get back to Finchley, ABC, in North London,

and just retrace his roots. And there's really a feel of that at the peacock gym as well, that it is right back to basics. I mean, boxing gyms are in the middle of communities. They're in the middle of working class communities. They're in the middle of hard areas. You know, you've got to Belfast, you know, you've got square mile, five or six gyms.

You go parts of South London, you can walk between gyms. Parts of East London, you can walk between gyms. But in my 30-odd years of knowing Martin Bowers and Tony Bowers and being in and out of the peacock, going back an awful long time, you know, before Lennox fought for the British title kind of thing that time, that long ago. It's always been, it's always had some kind of community field to it. It's the tea shop out that's run.

It's the amount of the amount of it's the amount. of people that come through years and years ago you could always buy something that was knocked off there i mean literally you know you could buy a fake watch a fake this a fake camera stuff that martin goes shock horror not on my not on my watch but hey ho that's the way it goes and even now you know you think about the front there mike you know we're going to hear from martin but he pointed out one or two people that just sort of go to the peacock all day whether they do mark well it just comes in he comes in in a morning what time till he well about quarter 10 and now if ever there was a if ever if in the dictionary it said community drop in right

It would just say peacock gym, canning town. Be careful leaving after dark. And a warm welcome too, Steve. If I'd drunk all the coffee and tea I was offered and eaten all the rolls I was offered, I've been a stone heavy by the time I came out. But I politely declined and spoke to Martin Bowers in a corner of the cafe.

And he told me how, as far as he and Daniel Dubois are concerned, how it all began, how they came together in the first place. He first coming in with his dad when he was six, believe it or not. And his dad used to come here regular. and he was always very proud of him and said, oh look, how many press-ups he can do and things like that.

But to be fair, that's a great thing because most of the parents that do come in here with their kids are proud of them, you know, and I want them to achieve and want it to go on. So Daniel started here, and then, again, fortunately enough, he's been around a few of the best clubs in London, and I'm not putting out of self in that bracket here. I'm talking about it went to Repton, he went to Dalewth,

he went to Fisher, he went to all these clubs, and he's, you know, as a junior, and he learned his game by going there and sparring different kids even at that young age. And then as a senior, he went on the GB squad, which I think our GB is the best. It's just done so much for our sport.

It's amazing. Without the lottery, without all these inputs, we wouldn't be having these great fires coming through. And you won't appreciate how good our boxing is until like five or six years' time to all these boys have passed through. And then we were going, oh, do you remember that era?

Do you remember this era? Just like we talk about the era, the era of yesterday, we'll be talking about this era. And we've got a golden era. We really have. It's just, it's amazing. It all comes from our amateur clubs. So, you know, you've got to tip your act to that.

I want to ask you about the illegal shed, and it was illegal. Don't start looking right that. The illegal shed you built upstairs with a triple bunk beds where you had about 32 nations and about 40 fighters living for five or six years. And I'm not from the council or the tax, but I want to ask you about that building

and how it came to actually be built and then evict and then destroyed. Tell the truth. First and foremost, Steve, I've been brought up to anything illegal is no coming. I appreciate that. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, is that all right? Yeah, go on.

Yeah, no, we was fortunate. We had some really good fires from all across the world. I mean, when the first East European fires come to this country, we had two outstanding fires, which I thought, which was Eric Tamor and Elvis Mikhailenko. Good fighters, weren't that? Good fighters. Elvis lived upstairs.

Like you said, we had people from Faris Fielders. Guaraloupe to Brazil East Europeans Jamaicans we just had everyone up there it was a good time but you know you have a little special times in your life didn't you and that was probably one of them

but the gym changes Martin in the same way that the community around it changes isn't like my old gym at the Lynn in South London used to be right there at the heart of the community but people come from further away now and it's different to how it used to be it used to be almost a focal

point of wherever they were in London or elsewhere. I think your local gym, like you said, the lean now would be West Ham, a little bit further out would be Repton. It represents your community and the people that work in your community support that club or they'll have kids or people who fight for that club who work in that factory. So the people from that factory would follow that club and you'd get good support. But we ain't got the factories no more. We haven't got the infrastructure that we had like with the docks and we had Tate and Liles

and we had like, you know, so we really have really more of a community following. But now with the internet and that it's changed so much. People think that they can come from anywhere and still be long here if that makes sense. How much of this gym is boxing and boxing only and compared to how much business you do with general fitness related to boxing? It's an hard one to answer because the gym's got a really big membership and it's different things for. different people. Different times of the morning it means something to do like it'll be the cab drivers.

Late at night it'll be a different group and there's all different groups that use the gym so it's different things but what the boxing is the boxing is the glue for one of the better word that pulls everyone together when we sit in this canteen that's what we talk about and you know that's our passion. Whoever

walks in here will look at the photographs whether there are kids from our gym or other gyms it's boxing that's what it is. It's just boxing So once Daniel, we won the GB title up there and it could have stayed in theory for the Olympics but it's a three-year cycle and you have no idea where you're going to be.

That was 2016. So in fact, he turns pro basically about three months after the other Olympics and we're now less than a year away from the next Olympics. Once you've got him at that point and he's a heavyweight and he's a baby heavyweight,

there's two of the hardest things to deal with there and he's a kid still, but he's a man in many ways and he's a heavyweight. Not easy that much. Mark that combo? No, I ain't, but let me just say something about Daniel. Daniel is so focused and he's programmed.

And when I say that, I don't mean that in an horrible way. He's programmed. His whole life, he's driven around being everyweight champion in the world. Not Olympic champion. And that's, you know, that's a great dream. Whoever's got that dream, as I said, I've tipped my hat to him. It's an achievement that's great for the country. But they want to be everyweight champion in the world.

There ain't no grey areas. Like when we talk, it's just, that's a bit. what I want you know and as I said before he got an invite to go to the WWE wrestling yeah and I said to me what do you think I said oh it's great I said to get invited out I said this special people get out I said Tyson may where I went for a list of people I really played it up and I went it's fantastic I'd rather go training it's just dang you know I mean there ain't if he sees he's just so focused it's good and it's good for the other boys in the gym

So this fight on Saturday, that would be the fifth of the year, which is nice and busy. They might have been short, but you still want to get ready for them. Well, 100%. Like you said, the last fight that we got ready for, which fortunately Dan won in the round, that's heavyweight boxing. But he probably sparred, I think I got it. I think done 120 rounds, you know, and they weren't gimmies. When does the switch flick, you know, from that bloke that you're talking about?

In the changing room, he's a different, like I said, as soon as we put the gloves on, whenever he's sparring or anything, he's just, this is what he does, this is his job and he takes it serious. You know, he don't look for a quarter and he won't give none until, obviously, you know, it's a controlled environment boxing. As violent as it is and as dangerous as it can be, you know, there's guidelines and, you know, even if he's sparring, we're watching all the time. So we try not to get anybody up, but it can happen.

You know, we see it with, Amisina, yeah? barring. And that was in here, wasn't how we've seen you? And it just happens. It can happen. So you've got to be really vigilant and you've got to look at the boys and make sure that when they walk in here, they know what they know what's coming sort of thing. And we're looking now at a top 10, forget about globally at the moment, top 10 in Britain domestically, as strong as, no, stronger than any time in my lifetime.

So where does Daniel fit into that? I think time will tell. I don't want to say, oh, we're here and we're there, but I think time will tell. As you just said, we've got probably 10 really good fires in this country, maybe eight, but real top draw fighters. Any other era, we would have been happy to have. You know, we would have been like, well, we're doing well.

And again, that all comes back from me to our amateurs. And not just our amateurs, the people who are in the clubs, night in, day in and day out, week in and week out, putting their time back, giving their time to make our sport special. Because you see all of those names, whether it's Anthony Joshua, Tyson, Fury, Daniel, all of them have come through a very strong amateur system. And all went through them people that give their time to these clubs that, you know, people might not even know some of the clubs. But believe me, every night there's people in there training kids, getting them, you've heard it before, getting them off the street and actually giving them some direction. And that's what it's all about having a bit of direction in life.

Whether you, like I said before, whether you're, if you can make a six-round fighter, you're an art of good, fire. If you really are a good fire. If you get someone to that level or take them beyond, it's fantastic. And that in a sense, Steve, is the wonder of the lives that we lead now, the privilege of the lives that we lead, that we can be around

the biggest event in boxing this year in Saudi Arabia for the week and get deep, deep insight from the two men that mattered most in Ruiz and Joshua and then we go right back down to the grassroots to where it all began for both of us. That kind of

environment. And also where it began for both of those two, and where it is at the moment part of, you know, a major part of Daniel Dubras life. And just like the amount of fighters that have gone through the door in the last 30-odd years, they're still becoming through the door in 30 years. Even if there's increased and massive gentrification in the area, which there has been. I mean, you walk out of there, Mike, there's 50 cranes on different sites. And they're not building council flats. They're building luxury apartments. There might be a bit of social housing, as they call it. Now, in the middle of those luxury flats, but there are hundreds and hundreds of luxury flats being built there. But you just get the idea that gym is going to remain the same unless, of course, it becomes part of a luxury complex, but it will still remain the same, because that's what it does and that's what it is. And the boys and girls who go in there, Steve, okay,

at times Dubois and the other top grade fighters are shielded from the other boxers and from the keep fitters who go in there from time to time. But at the same time, it is an experience. And it is an opportunity to go in and say, you know, I'm in the same gym as Daniel Dubois. It's a bit like when you run the London Marathon, you can say, I've run the same course as Mo Farrah and Paula Radcliffe. You know, you might be a long, long way behind, but you can still share that same experience. Well, you are sharing that experience.

It's not, you know, you're not going on some sort of guided tour where you pay a fee to go to the East End and train with the great, you know, great prospects and some great old fighters getting there still work out. like, you know, Earl Graham used to go in there until very recently, just work anonymously in the corner. It's what it is. It is what it is. And I always tell people about every year or so when I just want to knock out an easy column for the independent, I'll just do a way.

By the way, whatever you're doing, make sure you go one day to the peacock. It's a really expensive. Because if you think about it, Mike, if you're a boxing fan, and you've not been to the peacock, but you've been in London, the matter where you come from,

why have you not been there if you think about it? And that wall of pictures, which we didn't discuss, You mentioned it to Martin, and we didn't discuss it. That's as such the most esoteric wall in the world. You know, there are, I mean, not blasts from the past, that is the past living on that giant war in that cafeteria at that peacock. So Daniel Dubois, looking to extend his unbeaten record to 14 fights this coming weekend at the Copper Box Arena.

Next week, and indeed for the next two weeks, we're in reflective mood next week. It's a look back at 2019, so why don't you let us know your idea of the fight of the year and the fighter of the year and we'll assess those during our recording of that particular show and then the last podcast of 2019 we'll be looking back at the entire decade so why don't you give us your ideas of your fighter of the decade and fight of the decade as well that's all to come drop us your ideas at costello and bansc at bbccdochc co dot uk that's it for now from five live boxing with costello and bans the best b2-b marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads.

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