5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Itauma v Hrgovic: The Debrief

Episode Date: August 30, 2026

What next for Moses Itauma? After watching Filip Hrgovic shatter his world-title dream, Buncey is joined by Richie Woodhall to examine why Itauma came up short. We also hear from his promoter, Frank Warren, as they assess what the defeat means and where Itauma goes from here.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The murder of Tupac Shakur has generated nearly 30 years of rumours, conspiracy theories and unanswered questions. Now the mythology is about to meet the courtroom as the trial gets underway and Nevada prosecutors try and solve the mystery of who killed Tupac. And what really happened on the Las Vegas strip that night in 1996, it's time to separate fact from fiction. I'm Inishka Matanda Dowity and for the BBC's Fame Underfire podcast,

I'll be inside the courtroom every day and I'm bringing you with me. Join me for Fame Under Fire, the Tupup Murder Trial, the testimony, the arguments, the moments that matter, and all the legal analysis. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Five Live Boxing. Covering boxing can be absolutely exhausted and it can be draining. It can be this ridiculous roller coaster from ringside, especially if you're covering men and women that you know, men and women that you've known for a long time and you've especially followed them a lot during the week. You've had three or four conversations with them. Last night's fight

between Moses Atama and Philip Hergovich was one of the most draining and emotional fights I think I've ever covered. It ended in the ninth round with Moses collapsed into the ropes. He hadn't been hit specifically. He'd been clubbed a few times. but he had absolutely nothing left in his tank. On the opposite side of the ring, bleeding from an eye wound and also from his mouth was Philip Hergovich to Croatian. Now, he could also barely stand.

These two out-rocked Rocky for about six or seven of those nine rounds. Hergovich is the new IBF heavyweight champion in the world. Moses Satama went off to hospital exhausted and also with some kind of leg injury. we always record live pods from big fights immediately, instantly it's finished. We go and find somewhere. We're in Sam Noakes' dressing room underneath here in the boughs of the O2.

And Rich, as you can tell from my voice, and I know it's in your voice as well, it's exhausting. Try and make sense of what happened in that fight because I've done about you, Rich, but I think Moses Atama won all eight of the completed rounds. He totally ate boxing, didn't eat at the end of the end of it. of the day. And probably Steve was a victim of his own success because he was having too much success. In the first two and three and four rounds. Exactly.

You know what I mean? And with Hergovich making mistake after mistake and getting caught with fast counters. And at times, I think, Moser Tamer got a little bit too greedy early on in the contest. Quite early. Yeah. And I think I said it in commentary, he put everything into sort of every shot at one point. he clearly went for a stoppage or a knockout really early on and he gambled and it just didn't pay off

because Hergevich I think probably Moses Atama has underestimated his chin he's definitely underestimated Hergevich his chin and he's underestimated his powers of recovery and he recovered and I just can't believe what I witnessed but we We're saying it all week, Steve.

All week. This is not... Everyone that we've met, most people that we spoke to have all said... One two or three rounds, be a walkover. I haven't spoke to one person who said... I'm on your side. Everyone says Moses and everyone says Moses early. And easy.

And easy. So not just early, but easy as the kid. And people were saying to me, what do you think? And I said, well, I actually think it's quite a difficult fight. And they were as looking at me as if I was bar me. And I'll say, no, I think... I think Moses will win. I said, but I think you could go late stop at your point.

I said if I've got to go either way, I said I'd probably go points. And they looked at me as if I was crazy. I've had text from people saying, what are you talking about? It's going to be Moses and it's going to be early. Everyone was so convinced that it was going to be Moser's time early. And it just, he gambled, Steve, but Urgevich come through. When I got to the arena early on, I went wandering backstage with Molly Stevens, who was doing our ringside interviews.

She did a brilliant job. Got all to everybody. All she really wanted to do, though, was speak to Oasis, to be perfectly honest. She wasn't bothered about the boxing. She's had a little chat with Oasis. She's perfectly able. She's had no for three or four minutes. That's it.

The rest of the night didn't count. But we had to wander back here. And I bumped into several members of Moses' team. Maybe five or six. I'm not going to name them, but they're proper people. And some inactive box, as Olympians included. And they were looking at me like I was crazy because I'd suggested it would be a hard fight.

Not that I'd suggested Hergovich would win. And they were like, no, it's around. he's made for him. He's slower than Joe Joyce. It's a round. It's two rounds. It's three rounds if he wants to play with and put on a show. There was not even a sense. Apart from Pat McCormack, the Olympic silver medalist. And he said, no, he's because he's obviously fought in some tournaments. Yeah, exactly.

They're at the same Olympics, 2016. And he went, no, this is a hard fight. So he'll win. Moses will win, but it's a really hard fight. So it's a simple question would be, where did it go wrong for Moses? In a fight which he's run eight of the complete eight of the nine rounds, It seems like a ridiculous question, but where did it go wrong then? How did it end like it ended?

I think, Steve, he's probably started off a little bit too quick. Boom. Adrenaline dump, I called it. You know, and he's really gone for it early for a stoppage. He's tried to knock his opponents out. And he's hit the target. Don't get me wrong. And he's put him down.

He nearly did it. Nearly did him in the first 20 seconds. First 20 seconds, it was nearly over. Yeah, with the right hook, I think it was. High on the temple. High on the temple. So it looked to be going so well for Moe's his, I thought his timing was good.

I thought his speed was exceptional. And if anything, Ergovich couldn't cope with his speed. And when Ergovich threw a sloppy jab or a slow jab, bang, he got caught with a very fast counter. And I thought at one point, this is bread and butter stuff for Moses, because it's going so well. But where did he go wrong? It went wrong in that he went for him early.

Too much in the first round. That was a ridiculous opening round. And the first three or four rounds, well, after three rounds, I think me and you look to each other and you said to me, you mouth to me, he's blowing here. He was really blowing.

He was in the corner. He was blowing. And that was a surprise. And he wasn't making eye contact with Ben Davison in the corner. In fact, there was one point where we went to the corner, Paddy, the producers, sent us to the corner. And we heard Ben, about the end of the fifth round, where Ben says to him, are you listening?

Yeah. Are you listening? Ben's not a foolish coach. Ben knew at that point, even though he was winning and in front on points, He knew at that point this fight could turn because he could see his fighter suddenly losing stuff

and then when Philip was interviewed in the ring afterwards and we're not going to hear from me with the fighters. Moses, Moli has told us has gone off to hospital and we're here from, we will hear from Frank Warren and Philip Hergovich, we've left him surrounding with his family and he's dressing him and will respect that, he's crying and cuddling

his wife and the rest of his family because he's now the king of Croatia in addition to being the IBF heavyweight champion of the world. But what Philip did say in the ring when he was asked about when he could say he said he was gassing so Anna asked him Anna asked him when and he said early early first round first round well we said it at the end of the second he was gassing then and that's enough that doesn't mean he hasn't done his sprint work he doesn't mean he hasn't done his cardio vascular work that means and I'll put this out there

rich that the occasion got to him the event got to him baby well Steve we have been saying all week though, there were some unanswered questions about Moses. Thank you, Richie. Well done. And about his durability after six, you know, five or six rounds. And, you know, if you speak to Moses of time of fans, they'd get quite insulted when you, when you... And Moses gets quite insulted. Yeah.

They get quite insulted. Maybe everyone ever get hit on the chili said. Yeah, exactly. I think even Prince Nassim Ahmed says that he could go through his career and not really get it. Prince said Buncie. I know you think I'm the greatest British fighter of all time, but this guy's going to be bigger than me and he meant it. Yeah, exactly. So it was a miscalculation, Steve, from a few people. But I honestly think that if you've got the whole of the camp,

all your coaches, the trainers, all your support stuff, if they're all saying to you that, yeah, this is a one or two round. Walkover. It's a walkover. He probably genuinely believe that. It's dangerous, yeah. It's very dangerous. Yeah. It's very dangerous indeed. And then he's gone for it early. He's gone for it early in those first three or four rounds. And do you know what, though Steve, it was a total lack of experience. Without a shadow of a day, because he didn't really know how to slow it down. He didn't really know how to react to what was in front of him.

Because all he ever does is throw fast shots, powerful shots. He hits the target, and he knocked people out. He was hitting the target here, but this guy was still there. What's really interesting is I put a couple of those questions to Frank Warren, who I got in the ring at the end of the fire. And Frank was, you know, not visibly shaken. may be too strong, but you could tell he was a little bit shocked himself. I don't think he was in knee.

Moses will make it easy and winning a couple of rounds. He knew how tough a fight this was, but I still think he believed Moses would win. Here I am with Frank Warren, up in the ring at the end of a truly unforgettable night at the O2. Frank, all the outcomes, all the fights, all the nights, and bravery levels of bravery, tick in every box. It was a sensational, ridiculous, incredible fight.

Brilliant fight. I mean, for the fans, you couldn't get better than that. Two gladiators in there who literally in every way gave everything. And it was, you know, it just wasn't to be at the end of the night. I mean, he stopped using his jab. He was just trying to knock him out. And I was sitting next to his brother, Charles, who said he doesn't feel that it'll be a proper champion unless he stops him. I said, what you're talking about? So we, you know.

Win on points? Win on points. You win the belt. And that's what he was trying to do at the end. And he got clipped, he got careless, he got caught, and he still was firing, firing back. That was gone, yeah. I mean, he's a natural fighting man, that's what he is.

And he's in with a guy who's got tremendous experience, strong, who took some unbelievable punches. Did you think it would end early? Because he seemed really hurting that opening. He opened in 20 seconds, Bigfield. He was hurt. He saw on him, and he did it. He'd done what he'd done.

And cut a long story short, you know, as the fight went on, he was just trying too hard. to knock him out and I didn't like that. When did you... When you watch it back, when he's jabbing... He's okay. And he's keeping him on his back foot. He's negating probably 80% of what he is

or what Philip is, but he didn't, you know, he didn't continue. Friend, when did you start to get a bit concerned? Even though Moses were winning rounds, you know? About round seven? Last couple of rounds, yeah. I just wanted him to be a bit more... You know, his composure.

The composure wasn't there. Yeah. And I know that he was taken away on a stretch. He looks very dramatic. But he was talking... He's done his left. He was talking as well, wasn't. He wasn't unconscious. Yeah, he's talking.

He's disappointed. And it's a grueling fight. It was fought at high tempo. It was a fast fight. And Big Philip himself, I'm a big Philip fan. He's a great character. He's with us, you know. He's a lovely fella, and he's come through, and he's done his nation proud and himself proud, and he's got the belt.

And Moses at 21. It's a clue. He can come. He's a kid. Well, look at David Hay when he... Carl Thompson. Carl Thompson. He was finished then, by the way.

He was. He'd written off. Yeah. Yeah. And just briefly, you've announced for October, I think, the 16th, I think it's that. 17, 17, 17. Fabio Wardley against Daniel Dubois, fight at a year earlier on. That's to be the same thing, doesn't it?

Same thing, a Saturday fight. I mean, you know, we put on some tremendous shows, tremendous fights for the fans. It's another big one. And a great fight, it's a couple of other great fights we've announced with Anso Kukachi, defending against Nick Ball. What a funning fight? That's a blinder of the fight. And also, what a fight?

Willie Hutchinson and Joshua Baratzi. How about that? You know that's my kind of fight. If I'll ask one final question. What do you do this week now with Moses? Do you reach out? Do you try and go and see him? Or do you get it be a distance?

No, I will obviously see how he is. He'd probably want to be of his family. He's going to be really down. He shouldn't be. He should be proud of himself. But he'll be down and then we'll see where we go from now. The murder of Tupac Shakur has generated nearly 30 years of rumors, conspiracy theories and unanswered questions.

Now the mythology is about to meet the courtroom as the trial gets underway and Nevada prosecutors try and solve the mystery of who killed Tupac. And what really happened on the Las Vegas strip that night in 1996, it's time to separate fact from fiction. I'm Anishka Matanda Dowity and for the BBC's Fame Under Fire podcast, I'll be inside the courtroom every day and I'm bringing you with me. Join me for Fame Under Fire, the Tupac trial, the testimony, the arguments, the moments that matter and all the legal analysis.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get. get your podcasts. So interesting point there that Frank mentioned there, Rich, which I thought was really, and I wanted to ask you about it, was that Frank talking to Moses' brother at ringside, and Moses's brother saying, no, he thinks you can only win if you knock someone out. Because Frank's saying, well, why doesn't he box? You know, if he'd have conserved a bit of energy after six or seven. And I'm not sure he could, because we had Hugo Monnier with us, obviously the England

rugby player. And he was talking about adrenaline and he was talking about our hard, our hard, walking out on big events like a Twickenham can be. And, you know, big matches at Twickenham. But then he said to me, at the end of the first round, I think just at the start of the second, he pulled my headset back and said, he's done too much. Look, and the word I'm using,

it's my new favourite phrase, adrenaline dump. That's what that was. It was an adrenaline dump. And that's the only way I can describe it, Rich. But then one thing we probably need to do at this point, 15 minutes or so into this fight pod, is to say just how, incredibly brave, incredibly brave Moses Atama was

because he had nothing left in that ninth round and yet he still tried to throw punches. And you know what, Steve? He was still throwing fast punches. Right at the very end, yeah. Right at the very end. I think he caught Hurgievich with a tremendous shot just before he gets stopped on the road.

Just for he falls into the road of exhausted. Because he actually catches him with a punch and then he's the one that staggers back because he had absolutely nothing left. He'd spent everything the lad did. You know, it was an unbelievable performance. He'll certainly, he'll learn so much from it. But like I said, Steve, I think he gambled early on in the fight

to get the guy out of there. And it didn't come off. And Ben Davison and Lee Wiley in the corner, once that tank's emptied, they did try and get him to box a little bit in some of those rounds. I think like five and six he was starting to box. But they ended up being some of the hardest rounds of Moses Atama's career. I think round five, round six, round seven, round eight and obviously round nine.

So five of the rounds tonight were the hardest rounds of his career. Each round was just getting harder. And he was going to places, you know, all of those unknowns that you and I have talked about on Five Live this week and we've done in pod, especially in the preview pod. He was ploughing through those unknowns. We know what happens now if he's hurt. We know what happens if he's exhausted. He's still, as Frank Warren said, a natural-born fighter.

He's an instinctive fighter. He's an instinctive fighter. I still think he's the most probably talented heavyweight on the planet. He's a very talented boxer indeed. But in this performance, Steve, I thought he was too successful, too early. Pretty much too young, they say.

Yeah, and it's literally gone against him, and he only knows one way then. He thinks he's going to get a stoppage, he's going to get a knockout, and he just keeps going forward and then throwing these fast shots or waiting for his... Because you know what, Steve, what might have done him the world of good

in those first couple of rounds? Him actually to get caught with a couple of right hands. To make him think a little bit. Phil hardly landed a shot for three rounds. There was two jabs and we celebrated them. Exactly, you know. So if he got caught with a couple of shots that made him think,

but it was sort of so one way in one sense for a world title fight. He was totally, I thought he was totally in control. And then at the end of that, second or third round when we've seen him on that stool and really sucky in that. And I think I even said

I said, well you know, he should get a second win now because that's what fighters do in 12 rounders. But you've got to remember he's never been 12 rounds before. So he just hasn't.

He's been six to them, but he weren't competitive six as we. No, exactly. You know, he hasn't been pushed. So he just doesn't know. And I know, Steve, from my own experience,

when you do a 12 round contest, sometimes you hang back a little bit because you want to... Because you know you're going to where you've never been. Exactly. You think that, you know, we've got 12 rounds here. And that's how I used to think, anyway, before I did my first 12 rounder.

I was never really sure about my fitness because you think, can I go the 12 rounds? But he just spent too much too early. He went for it too soon, in my opinion, and it just backfired on him because you've got to give great credit to Hergevich. He literally, like he was hanging on there, on the edge of a cliff, and he's still clawing his way up the cliff. And eventually he's got, he's clawed himself back. I thought with a minute left in the eighth round that Philip had been hit so much and so often that he wasn't going to go down.

It wasn't in danger of going down. But he was kind of looking away. There was a couple of points we looked away. And then right above our heads, we could have lent out and touched their legs. Philip does a little turn, a little pivot, and he catches Moses with a right hand. And we saw Moses' right legs differ.

And you did that thing you've been doing to me now for 20 years at ringside. When something happens in the ring and you can't tell me because you've got the mic on. You whack me in the rib. I mean, I've got... If we work every week, I just had bruises like me down my side. You whack me really hard.

I whacked you back because it was stunning. It was, yeah, it was, yeah. And that was when the fight switched. Yeah. And then what happens then? Philip goes back to his corner. And Moses, and I'm standing up, so if it sounds different, and he staggers back to his corner.

Yeah. He literally staggers and Phil can't believe it. Abel Sanchez, the trainer in the corner, can't believe it. Ben can't believe. It's one of those matrix moments when time stands still and everyone's looking at what's happening in the ring. It might only last for a few seconds, but you see 20 things.

Our trained eyes. Steve, also, there was a point in the fight that I noticed. I think there was around about six or seven when it was going to be a classic case of, Moses was still catching him with good shots, and all of a sudden, Hergovich's feet really slowed down. They really slowed. And then I was thinking, right, these punches are having a real effect on Hergovich now.

Now, is it a case of if he takes? The body shots as well. The body shots. Is he going to keep taking these? How many can he take of these shots? Because they were clean. But at the same time, that was emptying the tank of Moses. Empting the tank of Moses.

And it was one of those sort of situations where either Hergovich is going to fold here because he's getting caught with big shots or the opposite in terms of Moser Tamer, emptying the tank because he's throwing these big shots. Incredible. It really was. So it ended in the ninth round with Moses slumped in the corner and he needed instant medical attention. He was never unconscious.

I've had that confirmed. He was never unconscious. But he injured his leg was what we've been told two or three times. And he's gone off to hospital. We know that. He was taken from the ring on a gurney. It was a real procedure to loosen the ropes to get his body through the ropes because didn't have a lot of movement or traction.

He was placed on the gurney and taken away. But he didn't have an oxygen mask. He didn't have an oxygen mask. which suggests that neurologically there wasn't a problem in my experiences not that I'm Dr. Bunce at mine but that's in my experiences he went away Philip stayed in the ring and cried

and did his thing Philip now in theory he has to fight Frank Sanchez who's the leading contender who took a small feat to step aside from this they'll take that that would be a big one Agit Cabo Alto new WBC heavyweight champion got in the ring shook hands and cuddled Philip obviously he'd

like the fight but before the fight another fight was announced another heavyweight title fight was announced. WBO heavyweight champion, Daniel Dubois, having a rematch with Fabio Wardley. They went face to face in the ring. October 17th. October 17th. It's a really big night. It's a really good night. And that will mean three world heavyweight championship fights in Britain in a 12, in 12, excuse me, in 12 months involving British boxers. You know, we didn't have one from 1966 to 19, I think, 85 when Bruno thought we didn't have one. Unbelievable. In Britain. So think about it. 20-year period

didn't have one. We had three this year. Moses can come back. He's still a baby. We know that. That's not a problem. Philip will need an awful lot of healing as well here. He's not back in the ring anytime soon, Richie. No, he's not. And he got a bad cut as well. Right. In about second or third round.

It was a tough, tough fight for him, wasn't it? Yeah, so he'll have a bit of time. I did say before the fight, if if, I think you asked me in a pod a couple of days ago when you said to me... It's all the blur this week, which is all the blur, son. If Moses loses, can he come back? And I said, yeah, of course he can.

He's only 21. Of course he can. However, Steve, yes, he can come back. Physically he'll come back. Of course, yeah. But it's going to be mentally how he's going to recover from this. Because I think there's going to be more damage mentally than physically here. Because that was a shocking defeat.

And he never thought he was going to experience what he did and lose the way he did. Certainly against that opponent. Yes. Rich, the psychological. damage. Yes. It can be worse when it's a fight you're expected to, when it's a fight you're expected, excuse me, it's a bit late here.

We are doing this, you know, about 2 o'clock in the morning. So it's going to be a real show of his character. Yes, definitely. Going forward from here. And that's another part of him that he might tick the box because it seems really weird that we're talking about this and this young kid has lost this world title fight. And there are obviously so many negative, so many things happen. that we've pointed a finger out,

but also so many positive things happened. He proved to himself that he had a heart. He proved to himself he had a chin. He was never in danger of going down, apart from just through exhaustion. So he did tick a lot of those boxes. Yes, he did. Those ones, some of the things that he's dismissed, saying, well, I don't have to prove that.

I know what I can do in the gym. Well, he's found out now. So as bad as he's going to be feeling over the next few weeks, maybe a few months, hey, maybe even longer. You know, some guys don't recover from defeats like that, Richie. As bad as he's going to be feeling, there are some positives, and his bravery, and his guts, and he's just fighting will and desire were impressive tonight.

Yeah, there were, and I think it would be harsh to say, well, you know, we now know the answer to the question, is he going to be durable after six or seven rounds? Well, you can't really, you can't really criticize him for that because it was such a hard fight that he went through. And I think his conditioning is good. It's just that he's mistime things in terms of how he's actually fought the pace of the fight. He's mistimed the pace of the fight.

That's what's happened there. And I think he will recover physically. And he will definitely become a better fighter through this experience, I think. And he's a 21-year-old kid fighting 20-odd miles from his house in front of 20,000 people. Unbelievable. At the O2 for a world title. In his 15th fight. And he's 15th fight.

To become the second youngest heavyweight champion in history. His face is on a thousand buses. Okay, he's been in demand all week. He's Moses Itama of Chatham. And he'll still be Moses at Aram with Chatham tomorrow. And he'll still be Moses Atam with Chatham next week. Son and brother and friend to all sorts of people. He can, without any, any problems whatsoever, come back.

And I know one thing. if he fights again in any fight, they'll also sell this place out. Because one thing the Brits love, okay, we want our men to win, but if they do lose, we want them to go down swinging, and he did go down swinging.

Well, he did, you know, and he gave everything. And while I was impressed with him as well, was he kept his speed right throughout the contest, you know, even in that last round, he was throwing really fast shots. The last seconds.

The last seconds. Literally the last point. But Phil was making a miss at that point, Rich, because the speed was still there, but Phil was reading it by that point. Exactly, yeah. It was a tremendous performance

from Philip Urgevich. Let's get it right. But there's lots of positives from Moses Atama. I think it will take a little bit more time mentally to get over it, but he will get over it. And I think physically and mentally

he'll be a better boxer for the experience. Yeah. You know what, Rich? We're only a 30-minute train journey away from our beds. We might be in bed by 3.30 if we play our cards, right? You're making me

your already, mate. Oh, don't say that. Richie Wooder was with me at ringside commentary team. It was the usual golden lineup. Ronald McIntosh, Hugo Monde was

presenting. I was somewhere in the middle and Molly Stevens was somewhere mostly just sitting with Noel Gallagher, actually, talking about songs and stuff like that. It was a sensational and unbelievable

and at the end, quite disturbing night of boxing at the O-2. Moses It Tamer fell short. He's 21 years of age. He will, as the cliche goes, come again. Philip Hergovich,

What a hero, what a legend in Croatia. I tell you, I wouldn't mind going to his homecoming parading, Zagreb. I'll have a little bit of that. And he asked Frank Warren if he could fight in Croatia. And I think I shouted out, yes, absolutely you can. Not that I've got the power to put the fight on, but I would absolutely love to be there. Richie, it's been a brilliant week.

It's been a sensational week. It's been a truly memorable week. It's been a truly memorable year. And we're not even out of August. We're not even out of August. We've still got well. I can list all the stuff we've got to come. Richie, it's been a pleasure.

And it's been a pleasure this week for all the people that have listened to us and all the people that have followed us on Five Live in the buildup to this fight. I hope we offered a little bit of sanity because there's been a bit of insanity surrounding this week, this week's fight. I've been Steve Bunce all week, and this has been Five Live boxing. Five Live Sports. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket unit are. Check for Lvbw.

Ouch. Lips on BBC Sounds. down the ground this girl. Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth cricket and it's the huge one. Trey, gosh. Settled out of it. Sorry, Ray.

Cricket on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've been every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sound. The murder of Tupac Shakur has generated nearly 30 years of rumors, conspiracy theories and unanswered questions. Now the mythology is about to meet the courtroom as the trial gets underway and Nevada prosecutors

try and solve the mystery of who killed Tupac and what really happened on the Las Vegas strip that night in 1996 it's time to separate fact from fiction I'm Anishka Matanda Dowity

and for the BBC's Fame Under Fire podcast I'll be inside the courtroom every day and I'm bringing you with me join me for Fame Under Fire the Tupac murder trial

the testimony, the arguments the moments that matter and all the legal analysis listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts Thank you.