5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Joshua vs Ruiz: Wilder's spanner in the works

Episode Date: May 29, 2019

Deontay Wilder hijacked the fight week news cycle overnight in New York by announcing his next bout would not be against Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury, instead opting for a rematch with Luis Ortiz. Joshua's promoter Eddie Hearn reacts to the news and explains his frustration at being unable to even get a meeting with Wilder's representatives. Mike and Steve then speak to legendary Muhammad Ali biographer Thomas Hauser, who paints a worrying picture about the state of the heavyweight division and in boxing in general the longer we have to wait for a superfight.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Let's get ready to rumble! Five Live Boxing. And welcome back to Five Live Boxing with Costa de Mar months. We've just wandered in off the street where there are some high-rate drivers. Would you believe it in New York? That's your taxi driver, but you're having five dollars for the tip. Wandering through Madison Square Garden into the theatre beneath the main

arena where the undercard press conference is about to get underway with the likes of Katie Taylor and Callum Smith appearing on the bill with Anthony Joshua and Andy Ruiz Jr. on Saturday evening, one floor above us here at Madison Square Garden. Steve, yesterday, Tuesday in New York, it was the workouts. And I think we were mildly surprised, to say the least, that the speed that Andy Ruiz Jr. showed in his brief pad session with his trainer, Mani Robles. Well, we knew he was committed and we knew he was focused and we knew he was in great condition, certainly by Andy Rory's standards. We knew that when we bumped into him on the Monday night

at the so-called red carpet event, which turned out to be, as you know, a black carpet event. But seeing him yesterday, I was quite excited. I mean, I could actually say that because his feet are terrific, Mike. His head movement's great. Sure, he's carrying a bit of bulk, a bit of weight, but nothing like some of those awful pictures you've seen. Three or four minutes we've gone, I promise you. Thank you very much. Sorry, Mike, what was I saying. I mean, Ruiz's shape. Get close. This job's worth city at Madison.

There are three different unions in this building at Madison Square Garden. You realise that. So one guy I'll tell you to go. The other guy I tell you you can stay and the other guy will tell you where you can stay for a bit but then you've got to go. It's crazy. I love it. I'm not sure he's more angry than the commissioner or the cab driver. Mike, I thought Ruiz looked terrific. I'm not advocating he's going to win.

And I'm not saying he's the man I want to see Joshua. if I was playing in this three or four months ago, but he's got certain things about him. He's got that hand speed. He understands fighting big guys, because that's all he's ever done in his life. And he's got that little bit, little bit, or not a little bit,

he's got a little bit of fearlessness. He's got that faith in his Lord and Master, and he's got that thing that makes all heavy weights dangerous. He's got nothing to lose, Mike. Let's get away from the mayhem in the lobby here. lobby here, Steve, and walk into the theatre itself where we can talk to Eddie Hearn in the wake of that announcement late night, Tuesday night, New York time by Deonté Wilder that his next fight will be a rematch against Louise Ortiz Jr. We're joined now by Eddie Hearn to talk about the impact

that will have on the future of Anthony Joshua. But first of all, Eddie, here we are at Madison Square Garden. And you've said at the press conference, what an honour. Of course. And it's so special, you know, for me it's an honour. I can't believe I'm promoting the world. I'm promoting the World Heavyweight Championship at Madison Square Garden. Can't believe Big Josh is fighting at Madison Square Garden as well. Can't believe Katie Taylor's fighting for the undisputed women's lightweight world championship at Madison Square Garden. Can't believe Callum Smith is defending his world championship at Madison Square Garden.

I particularly can't believe that Tommy Coyle from Hull is fighting Chris Al Jury from from fighting at Madison Square Garden. I know, I know. So it's just such a special night. And, you know, Brits abroad are always always a great crack. And there's going to be 8,000 of them in a sold-out Madison. as a Square Garden on Saturday, so it's going to be a really special night. Did you ever take, did you ever go on one of those Brits of Brawl,

say to a Lewis fight or a Tyson? I went with my dad a fight. I went with my dad a lot. I mean, you know, I was in here to watch many fights. I went to Hamad against Berera, you know, which didn't end well. But, you know, as again, I've been around a load of those kind of fights. And I even went to Hong. I even went to Hong.

Well, yeah, as a fan. Yeah, but, you know, I went to Hong Kong for Herbie Hyde against Tommy Morrison, which didn't quite make the ring. But it was scrapped at the way. So we had the ups and the downs. So it's really just, there's nothing like it, in my opinion. And yesterday at the way, and the guys from Madison Square Garden were kind of,

this is amazing. It's like, well, we've had bigger turnout to workouts. No, we don't get anyone turn up for workouts, you know. So it's just brilliant to see Joshua make his name and his mark in this very important market. And I think watching Andy Ruiz Jr. at the workout yesterday, Eddie, it didn't change people's minds, but I think it made them just stand up and say,

this fella's got something. Put the fear of Christ up me because he looked like a guy who is focused, is fearless and is probably the worst style you could find for Joshua. I mean short, fast hands swinging those big hooks over the top.

Now people say, oh, he's too small but actually his poor points are actually plus points for him in this fight. I think Joshua against a big tall stand-up heavy weight is almost unbeatable against someone that's going to be coming in low and messing him

harassing him, yeah. And his hands are much faster than Peveckin. Probably doesn't carry the pop of Peveckin, but probably is more relentless as better lateral movement as well and may even have a better boxing IQ than Pevecene as well. The bigger worry is he's completely fearless.

You know, he hasn't really grasped what the opportunity that is in front of him, you know, and that makes him dangerous because he's not going to freeze, and that's one of the reasons I chose him. I could have got a guy that looks much better in shorts than Andy Ruiz, but he wouldn't have brought the heat like Andy Ruiz.

And I wanted to give people a good fight. I want to give people value for money. I want to see Joshua under pressure. That's what I want to see, because that's where he's going to shine. Now, when the middle fight fell out of bed, Eddie, it was four days, I think, before Ruiz was due to have a fight.

Now, he's told us, and I can exclusively reveal that he's told us, that you and him became Instagram buddies. And the fight was made on Instagram. Yeah, he sent me a message going, please give me this opportunity. I've got a fight on Saturday. I can beat Joshua.

I will come to fight much more. than all the other people you're talking about. I was like, okay, it was only his physique that really put me off, because if he was carved out of stone, he would have been the first, he would have already been booked in for the fight. So I thought about it,

and I spoke to him, and I spoke to other people who told me, Rui's can really fight, and in the end, he was the guy that we selected. We saw him knock out Dimitrenko. He's actually had a great prep. Dimitrenko is very similar in size to Joshua. Ruiz's down points are,

when he's not fighting, he probably slabs about too much. But actually, he's coming off probably an eight-week camp, he's had a week rest, and he's gone back into camp. And he says he feels lighter and fresher than he's ever felt. So, you know, I don't think it's helped Joshua, and Joshua's really had a new opponent,

similar style to Miller in terms of size, but faster. So, you know, I don't think it's been the best preparation for Joshua, but I think Ruiz is coming to fight, and I think it's going to be hard work. And in terms of all the problems and the issues in where Joshua is going and why we're here, How important Eddie was Anthony Joshua and yourself being here for the Canello fight before Christmas against Rocky Fielding and how this place exploded? I think it was really the turning point for Josh in terms of making his decision about where his next fight would be.

You know, he really blows mind. Even though you had Wembley Stadium bought. But he's never really been there. When we've done Wembley Stadium, he's never came out and looked around at the fans and gone, wow, this is amazing. He just sort of goes for a tunnel. Next thing he's in a ring having a fight. Yeah. So here he went to Canello against him.

field in and he really thought this is amazing and it is when you walk in it's full up there's nothing like this place and i think that just said to him wow i'd love to fight here you know and obviously we made it happen he talks about about that night about sensing something and feeling something and sitting at ringside and having and having a look around you i'm not sure if you were sitting next to him i'm assuming you were but were you doing the same thing before he said i'd love to fight here were you going in your head oh i hope he turns to me any second now and says ed i'd love to I was already on it. When we walked out, we both walked through the tunnel in that night.

And I was like, oh, Josh, imagine you're fighting out. It would be amazing. He was like, no, it would be. And I've always, we're standing now in the theatre, which is a 3 and a half thousand set up for boxing. Really good arena, actually. I've promoted two shows here. Danny Jacobs winning the world title and Demetri's Andre defending it.

But, you know, it's an honour to be promoting at Madison Square Garden. In the theatre. So now we get a chance. So actually not have to bluff anymore and get some great photos in the big one. Talking about where we go from here, Eddie, last night, New York time, Deonté Wilder announces that his next fight will be a rematch against Luis Ortiz.

How does that play around this promotion? It doesn't really. I've not wanted to talk about Deonté Wilder in this whole buildup, but obviously everybody asked the question. I want him to focus on Andy Ruiz in the promotion for that fight. What happened last night was embarrassing because Joshua went on ESPN yesterday and said,

the only fight I won after Ruiz is Wilder, and after that fight we'll be sitting down and we'll be, and he said, and why don't me and him sit down, man to man, and try and make that fight. Two hours later, Wilder puts a tweet out to say, oh, well, by the way, I'm fighting Louis Ortiz next. Because all the pressure this week is really mounting on Wolder, and you know that if Joshua wins on Saturday,

the first thing that he will say is, Wolder, I'm ready, no excuses, let's go. And Wilder's just trying to take the pressure. of and the play away by saying, no, I can't fight Joshua because my next fight's already scheduled against Ortiz. He's already knocked Lewis Ortiz out, right? So why not fight Joshua? I don't understand.

He's just being convinced of an alternative plan. Because I believe Walda wants to fight Joshua. I know Joshua wants to fight Wolder, but someone's telling him, no, do this instead, and it'll be bigger next year. We don't want to wait till next year. You know, he's going to fight Ortiz, then apparently he's going to fight Konaki in the spring.

So now we're like over a year away from that fight. even happening. That means, if they were to fight, let's say they were to fight in October of 2020, that's the sort of time span,

that means that they would have shared being world champions for four and a half years. It's never happened in the history of boxing that two guys have been world champions

for that long and still not met. That would be... I'm not blaming... I'm not blaming him. That would be a disgrace, wouldn't it? And, you know,

Joshua's only had 22 fights. Wilders had 40 whatever fights. He's been a pro two, three times as long as Joshua. He's never unified the division. Joshua's unified the division twice already in 22 fights. But it's all irrelevant.

The stats are, we need this fight. We want this fight. All of us need it. What they're gambling on is that it's bigger next year. It will be bunsy, but someone might lose. It's already twice the size that it was last year. Last year. So don't be greedy.

When you talked about it on this part. So don't be greedy. like we've had a result let's do it now rather than weight it could be bigger but you could also get knocked out or Joshua could get knocked out

and we you know we spunk it all but in a sense maybe there's some leverage for Anthony Joshua now to say well look you know I've made it clear that I want it

it's clear that Wilder is the one now you've only got a look at the Ontario Wilder's replies on social media everyone is just ripping you because he's the one who's coming out he's never called this fight on

in the last six months really and now he's got the opportunity with no obstructions to take the fight and he's not willing to do it so I'm just pleased people are seeing the truth which is yeah we've all made mistakes and negotiation but for the last six months there's been nothing getting in the way of making

this fight at all and especially now and they still don't want to do it it's not that they don't do it Mike they don't even want to talk about it that's the frustrating thing but the more frustrating thing is to the public don't see that but now they do and that's you know although we're not getting the fire at least they know that we're We're the one trying to make the fight, and this guy is continuously ducking out.

Does it create a difficulty to start a narrative after Saturday night now? And this is assuming that Anthony wins against Andy Ruiz as to where Joshua goes next? No, because as world champions, you've got mandatories. I mean, he's got a WBO mandatory, could be Ussic, he's got an IBF mandatory, Kubrat Pulev, there's the Dillian White fight, there's maybe even the Tyson Fury fight. So there's fights out there for him, but it's disappointed because I can't tell you that he wants those fights more than the wilder fight that's the one that's the one that makes him undisputed so you know he really wants that fight ultimately if that fight happens and and if they keep winning

it's it's as big as can be measured but could it happen here yes in in madison square yeah yeah well what in america or in madison square garden yeah i think this would be the place i mean i love Vegas and everything but i don't think Vegas has the same pop it used to have you know they've got the new arena there t-mobile which is really nice but i don't know i think I think Madison Square Garden is a fantastic place. Obviously, not nearly half the distance for the Brits to travel. I mean, if 8,000 come for Andy Ruiz, 50,000 would come for Deonté Wilder.

I was thinking of maybe, I don't know, you know, what the situation is in these days, the Yankees baseball stadium, something like that. Americans generally like to do things in the arena. I don't know. I mean, that's, again, we're talking about what venue the Deonté Wilder fight should be. We can't even get a meeting with Deonté Wilder's seem so I think we should just focus on what we know. I know that you've been saying for a few days to people.

You mentioned it the other day to me when we're on the balcony. You think it's going to be wild as going to sign for autisies. But was there a part of you that was not shocked, but felt let down when you finally got that message yesterday afternoon. I was just hoping. I was just hoping that he would turn around to these people and go, listen, I know we got that and that, but let's do this one. Just wait till Saturday at least.

Yeah, exactly. That's the embarrassing thing that you wouldn't wait. What if Andy Ruiz puts Joshua down in the first round? Joshua gets up. They both go down two or three times, and Joshua comes through a war to knock him out. And the American public go absolutely bananas. And all of a sudden, Joshua Wilder becomes three times bigger than it was. But yet you still can't wait. Why don't you want to wait?

Because you don't want a pressure of people putting it on you. saying you must fight Joshua and the people the fans they've got to continue the pressure on wilder because I know wilder's a proud guy I know he actually has an ego he does care about his reputation so people who just got to tell him you're a joke mate you know and that's that's the only thing that's going to make him fight the pressure of the public and then saying when are you going to fight Joshua when you want to fight Joshua because that's what we want so look business first getting over the line Saturday night Andy Ruiz that's all that matters right now one last point on that, Eddie. You spoke about

you believe Wilder wants it. So are there other forces at work? For example, Showtime trying to push the zone out of business. Yeah, it's not just a zone. It's more that PBC are trying to sell the business and without the World Everyweight Championship champion, their business is worth a lot less. It's not rocket science,

but it's just sad because they don't want to gamble. If Joshua loses, it's really not great news for Matron. But I'm up for gambling because I think we win and I want that buzz. I want that one night where everything on the line. That's why we're here. But they don't want to. There's too much of

a matrim business compared to PBC very different. No, matrim is me, a mild man. Right? And we ain't got shareholders to answer to. We're not interested in trying to sell the business. We do exactly what we want. And what we want is fun,

buzz, money as well, but just those nights that you cannot buy. And that is a night that no one would ever forget. It's a night where the entire world would stand still for the sport we love and that's why we have to make it. Now there was a great press conference recently while he stole

the show Barry Heard, Walt Hout he was mesmerizing there he led the way but he did utter some unbelievable lines one of which and Mike and I were talking about this earlier on was he said right now in America there's a fight to the death with the TV companies

and what I think we saw with Wilder and Ortiz too was the first serious assault of what could be, a really gruelling and bloody and costly battle going forward for the TV companies. Yeah, it's already been. I mean, we've been here probably like eight or nine months now, and, you know, obviously we're aligned to DeZone. You've got the three major players, which are DeZone, Showtime, Stroke, Fox and PBC, and top-ranking ESPN. And it is a war.

You know, there's a lot of money flying around. Everyone's scrambling for subscribers and viewer numbers, and it's complete madness. All the fighters here are. being overpaid. That's why you're seeing a lot of UK fighters as well wanting to come here and fight. It's a lot of fun and showtime are scrambling to keep hold of Wilder. I've told me before. I've not yet aligned Joshua to a long-term US network deal because I don't want a network deal to limit the opportunities and the legacy and career defining fights that he may need to have. We will probably sign a network deal coming up but there still needs to give you enough flexibility to have a fight with Wilder

because the money's nice but if he don't fight he won't be happy and that's a kind of fight that he wants to not finish his career on but a big fight that he wants to be a big part of it and one final point Eddie

before we let you go because I know you're in demand when everybody's finished listening to us every week they can now pick up another podcast no passion no point you've got a bit of competition

I know where this came from but I was just going to do a boxing podcast right? Yeah, of course you were. And then Ross came in, who works for me and said, no, we spoke to the BBC. You're obviously a much bigger star than Costello and Bunts. Would you like to do your own podcast?

Oh, that was lethal. And I was like, you know, what do you want it to be on? They said, well, a lot of business, you know, your drive, passion, boxing, lifestyle. So I was like, well, who's going to want to listen to that? They said, well, actually, we think a lot of people. I said, well, you know, sent a list of people. I said, they ain't going to sit down with me. Anyway, everyone I've asked and said yes.

So Wayne Rooney opens us up. We've got KSI. We've got Sadiq Khan, planned to go in. We've got Bradley Wiggins. We've got all these people. And it's just really sitting down. Probably more and more me as a fan. Just basically learning about them, their passion.

Sitting down with Wayne Rooney was amazing and just listening to his passion for playing football. Where did you do that? In Washington. Last week, I had a show out there. It's like he never wants to leave the sport. All he wants to do is be around football, playing, coaching, whatever. Never wants to leave it.

drive to get up every day and continue playing. It's really fascinating. So I hope you enjoy it. If you don't, tweet, like and subscribe or whatever you say they have to do on BBC 5 Live and Sounds. But hopefully you guys enjoy it and many more to come. I look forward to it. Thanks for your time, Eddie.

Cheers. Thanks, Ed. And now we're joined by having moved on from one of the world's gate promoters to one of the world's great writers, Thomas Hauser, Life and Times of Muhammad Ali. If any of you have read that, then this is the man who put that together.

Thomas, how is this as an event resonating around New York and around the U.S.? This event was hurt very badly when Jarrell Miller was forced out. There was going to be a huge amount of energy around that fight. Jarrell, just by his size, his persona, was the perfect foil for Anthony to make this a huge event. Andy Ruiz doesn't bring that to the table. He's a solid fighter. You know, Mark Twain once said about Wagner's music, it's better than it sounds.

Well, Andy Ruiz is a better fighter than he looks, but to the uninitiated, that doesn't come across, so it hurts the event. It definitely does. So Anthony Joshua is not big enough on his own to walk in here and make a noise. it has to be a decent fight at this stage. Because back in the UK, we say that 90,000 will turn up to Wembley Stadium

to watch Anthony Joshua box his own shadow. AJ is huge in the UK, but you heard Eddie Hearns say today that 8,000 Brits are coming over for this fight. Well, that means that here in the United States, since they haven't sold out yet, maybe they've sold 8,000 tickets to Americans, 8,000 of people who came across the ocean, 8,000 here. So A.J. is not a name.

We could walk outside of Madison Square Garden right now and ask people who's the heavyweight champion of the world. And the answer you would get most is, well, I don't think it's Mike Tyson. You know, you'd find very few people who said, well, AJ holds these three belts, and Deonté Wilder has this, and Tyson Fury is the lineal champion. heavyweight division now is a mess. Is AJ a very good fighter?

Absolutely. He has charisma. He's a wonderful man as best I can tell. He has an exciting persona. He could be the man. But the promise that was there after he beat Vladimir Kitchko in front of 90,000 screaming fans at Wembley hasn't been fulfilled. And I don't think it will be unless we can get those big fights.

And I'm not sure the powers that they want those big fights, particularly since there are a lot of people with a lot of power and influence who would like to see DeZone killed in the crib. So picking up on that, Thomas, it seems to me that you're saying quite straightforward, that if Anthony Joshua keeps fighting guys like Takum, Pavec and Ruiz, and if Wilder keeps fighting Brazil and Ortiz in rematches, and if Tyson Fury keeps fighting guys like the German Tom Swartz, then all three of them are going to suffer down the road.

And we're going to be wandering around on the streets here, trying to find somebody not just today, but in six months, maybe even in a year, who would struggle to identify the best or the world heavyweight champion. The heavyweight championship of the world was the most coveted title in sports for a long time. Right now, that throne is vacant. We don't really have a heavyweight champion.

A couple of years ago, you could have said, yeah, it's AJ after he beat Klichko. But he hasn't looked that impressive in his last few fights. Wilder has gotten better. Fury certainly surprised everybody with his performance against Wilder. And instead of pushing this to critical mass, what boxing has done is separate the three components without there ever being fusion. And it's a shame. It's a real shame because boxing fans are being deprived, the sports being deprived, and the fighters are deprived of the opportunity to really be considered as great. You know, when we talk about great fighters, whether it's Joe Lewis, Jack Dempsey, Muhammad Ali, we talk about the great fights when they had the Inquisitors. We talk about fights like Dempsey Tunney, you know, Joe Lewis against Max Schmelling,

Ali Frazier, Foreman, you know, all these guys fighting each other. And you don't have that in boxing anymore at any level. Errol Spence and Terrence Crawford should be fighting each other. They aren't. Both men are deprived of the opportunity to be great. And it's the same thing now in the heavyweight picture. That's a shame. We are all of us, Thomas, fans at heart, and so we dream that Anthony Joshua against Deonté Wilder will happen.

Let's throw a date out there, April of next year, it happens here at Madison Square Garden. How big in relation to boxing history and the heavyweight division is that fight? Hard to say. You have to distinguish between fights that are huge commercial attractions and fights that really matter. in the larger, more important picture. You look at fights like Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, Joe Lewis and Max Schmellon, Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries.

Those were huge fights that really mattered. Now, was Floyd Mayweather against Manny Packyow the biggest commercial fight of all time? Yeah, and who gives an F, really. I mean, does anybody really think that fight mattered except as a cash grab and the larger scheme of things. And right now, it's about the cash grab. And great fights and cash grabs are not mutually exclusive.

You can do both together. But let's have the big fights and not just one. There should be three fights among these three heavyweights. And if somebody wins his two, fine. Then he's the heavyweight champion. If each guy is one and one, then you do it again. That's how you'll determine who the real heavyweight champion of the world is. Because right now you could make an argument for any of the three.

We were talking when Jarrell Miller was the opponent for Anthony Joshua about the dearth of boxing in this city. What is the situation with boxing? Is there boxing in New York anymore, Thomas? Boxing is suffering in New York. Madison Square Garden clearly is no longer the mecca of boxing. Barkley Center is not the mecca of boxing. Both arenas have big fights sometimes.

Yeah, but essentially the building is rented out. New York doesn't have the fighters at once did, but the United States doesn't have the fighters at once did. And you look at what's happening. First, we don't have recognizable champions in the sport anymore. We're all excited about NBA basketball because Golden State and Toronto are going to meet in the finals. They earned their way there, and we're confident that we're going to see the best against the best.

U.S. Open is coming up in golf, Wimbledon and tennis. The French Open is going on now. Great athletes, great teams in well-run sports earn their way to the top, and that's what fans respond to. You don't have that in boxing anymore. You don't have recognizable champions. You have too many champions. The big fights don't happen.

When they do happen here in the United States, they're cut off from most of the fan base by the absurdly high price tag that's attached to pay-per-view here. And then you have fans saying, well, you know, I'll watch it on tape delay a week later. I mean, really? I mean, would somebody say I'm going to watch the finals of the NBA a week later on tape delay?

Well, the rumble in the jungle. Yeah, the rumble. I mean, it's just that that's not how you. you have a well-run sport. So you have a few fighters now who are getting huge amounts of money because of the war here in the United States between ESPN and PBC and DZone, fighters who are being paid crazy amounts of money. Fine, I don't begrudge that to them. You have some promoters and business interests that are getting rich, but this sport is suffering. This was supposed to be the time when boxing fans were rewarded. And boxing was

going to cross over to the mainstream. We're on ESPN, we're on Fox. We have this new platform in the zone and it's not happening. You go to ESPN Plus now, the ESPN website, you go across the top and you'll see Major League Baseball, NBA basketball, NFL football, you have to go over to other and then scroll down under other. And after Little League, Little League baseball and cricket in the United States. After those sports, number 12 on the list is boxing. Now, that tells you what ESPN thinks of boxing, because so far, boxing hasn't delivered for ESPN.

You don't have the fights fans want. And it's a shame. Now, are people getting rich? Yeah, but the sport is suffering. You talk there about the war. This is this battle for boxing. Boxins, TV, heart and soul or guts or whatever you want to call it. Can good come from that battle in the long term?

Can there be a clear winner? And could that clear winner in a year, two years, when maybe one or two of the others are bankrupted or have just pulled out, could that winner in some way be good in the longer term? It depends on how the competition unfolds. If the war was that each network, whether it's ESPN, Desone, Fox, showtime, if each network said, we're going to put on the best fights possible,

yeah, then whichever network emerged would do so on the basis of putting on the best fights possible. That's not what's happening. And one of the problems is that none of the networks built proper quality control into their contracts. you know, oh, well, we have quality control. In order to be on, the person has to be ranked in the top 10. Well, okay, I could get ranked in the top 10. I am ranking. Well, congratulations.

Are you a mandatory? Except for whites. I mean, really. I mean, they don't have proper quality control. It's just, they're not delivering what was promised. And if they have a fight that's halfway, interesting, it winds up on pay-per-view, and people are charged 70 or 80.

for it. So are people getting rich in the short term? Yeah. But boxing has always looked in this short term and that's what kills the sport and there's no sense of a common good. There's no sense of we're all in this together. It's how can I get the next big sport? For all of this though Thomas

when I walk in here on Saturday evening getting ready to commentate there will still be a tingle because it's a heavyweight title fight and forever that sense that anything could happen. There's a tingle for you. There's a tingle for you. There's a tingle for Steve.

There's a tingle for me. Because we're boxing guys. We appreciate boxing. We care about the culture that attaches to the heavyweight championship of the world. Most people in this country are not boxing fans now. And it tells you something else about the state of boxing today. This is a fight for a heavyweight. heavyweight championship and maybe the most credible part of the heavyweight championship of the world

because AJ is an awfully good fighter and he has what the WBO belt, the WBA belt, the IVF belt. So you're fighting for the heavyweight championship of the world. Do you realize how many people were offered millions and millions of dollars and turned this fight down before they got to Andy Ruiz? I mean, can you imagine? Imagine when we were kids, somebody turning down an opportunity to fight for the heavyweight championship of the world? But that's where boxing is today. Thomas, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. I think we need therapy now.

And I hope next time, we can have a more optimistic talk about where boxing is today. I think there can be a not necessarily a quick turnaround, but I think there can be a turn round. If in the end those fights are made and maybe because of the outlay of those broadcasting companies, in the end, they will have to produce the fights that the fans will buy. Well, but right now the money is being used to keep the fights that should be made from happening instead of being used to make those fights. Thomas, thanks for your time. See you around in the next couple of days.

Well, as Thomas walks away, Steve, and we're now being. ushered out of the theatre beneath the main Madison Square Garden arena at the end of this press conference. We can see students arriving for what is a graduation ceremony. So we're now walking through the bowels of the Madison Square Garden building itself, out onto Joe Lewis Plaza on the edge of 8th Avenue. And Steve, Thomas Howser there sounding like we did four and five months ago when we found that Tyson Fury had signed a deal with ESPN and therefore was under the likely to be on a collision course with Anthony Joshua and Deonté Wilder any time soon.

Thankfully, just a bit more upbeat than you were on that particular occasion. People were generally worried they were calling the SOS number at the BBC concerned about it. What Hauser did there quite brilliantly, and that's what Hauser does. It does things brilliantly. Let's get that right. He's not a half-time man. He's a proper full-time man. What he did there quite brilliantly is he pulled everything together, Mike.

All of the fears, all of the worries, all of the concerns that you and I have had for five or six months, all those desperate moments when we've had to deal with the fact that Wilder's not going to fight Fury, and that Wilder's not going to be next for Joshua, and that Joshua's not going to be next for Fury, all of those times, and that great line from Barry Heard, which we repeat, and we talk about all the time, we're about to go into a fight to the death for the TV,

heart and soul of boxing. He pulled it all together, and he gave us, if you don't mind me saying so, and we're not bad, we're quite good at you and I, to be perfectly honest with you. He gave us a bit of a quick, size history lesson. It was there. Bang, this is what's happening now. Bang, this is what should be happening. And where he couldn't give us the answer is what will happen, because we still don't know. And just before we finish, Steve, reflecting on what Eddie Hearn was saying about Deonté Wilder announcing in New York this week that he's going to fight a rematch against Luis Ortiz. What do you

make of that and what it does to the heavyweight championship jigsaw? Very disappointing. A bit shocked, to be perfectly honest with you. Clearly, very little to do with Ortiz and Wilder and clearly part of this long-drawn-out battle that we've now been dragged into as observers. It's a fight that's still going to be a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong.

I'd have no problem with it. If Joshua wasn't around and if Fury wasn't around. I've got no problem with Wilder fighting Ortiz again. I thought there was some cracking moments in that fight. There's an argument, a solid case that if there were five more seconds in one round, then Ortiz would be the new world champion. Well, guess what? If there were one second less or five second less in just about a zillion rounds in boxing,

history will be different. It doesn't work that way. History is what it is. I'm disappointed, Mike, by it. And I'm a little bit shocked. I'm not going to be an after-time when saying, I knew they'd fight each other. I'm not. I genuinely thought, hand-on-heart, hand-on-heart,

that we might be dealing next week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, with almost an amber leading to a green for Wilder against Joshua. So I'm a bit shocked. Well, among the familiar sounds of New York City, that's about it from its latest edition of Five Live Boxing with Costello and Bunce. Don't forget we've got live commentary from here on Saturday evening. Sunday morning UK time, we expect Anthony Joshua to make his way to the ring at around 4 a.m. Also commentary on Katie Taylor and her potentially historic.

female lightweight championship fight against Delphine Pursune of Belgium and Callum Smith defending his WBA super middleweight title against the Cameroon Born Hassan and Dam. The next podcast available to download on Friday morning UK time between now and then Steve

it's time to go and find somewhere to watch Arsenal against Chelsea in the Europa League final. Yeah I'm going to go and slip back to the hotel, put on my Terry Henry shirt and I know the Spur supporters club over in Brooklyn I've booked a table and I've booked a table and I booked the table under the name of H. Kane. No wonder they could find room for me.

H. Kane Esquire plus two. You two will be my guests tonight in the Spurs supporters club in Brooklyn as we watch Arsenal Stuff the Blues. That's me and producer Jack. Can't wait. Let's get ready to rumble. Five live boxing.