5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Life After Boxing

Episode Date: January 23, 2026

Is enough being done to support boxers once they hang up the gloves? In this special programme, Stacey Copeland examines the realities fighters face when their careers end, from loss of identity to physical and mental challenges. Joined by Steve Bunce, former undisputed world champion Josh Taylor and leading trainer Dom Ingle, the discussion explores whether the sport is doing enough and what more can be done to help boxers prepare for life out of the ring. They also hear from Ricky Hatton's friend and manager, Paul Speak, Robert Smith of the BBBoC, and Queensberry boss Frank Warren.

This is five-life boxing. Over the next hour, we're going to be talking about life after boxing. Now, for anybody who's made that walk to the ring, they'll know all about that rush of adrenaline, it sears through your veins, the roar of the crowd, and you feel invincible as you're prepared to dance, as they say, under the lights. And that is a pretty addictive feeling. To make that ring walk in front of a packed-out arena or stadium, though,

there's really nothing that compares. There's nothing quite like it. What about when that final bell rings? No more big nights under the lights, no more roar of the crowd. It's then that boxers face that really tough question of who am I without boxing. And that's what we'll be delving into this evening. After all the glory, when it's all over, what then? Joining me to do that in the studio is former undisputed light,

well-to-weight world champion Josh Taylor, who hung up the gloves last year through injury. Lovely to have you with us. World Championship trainer who guided Kelbrook, of course, to a world title, Dominic Ingle, lovely to have you with us, and a man who's been in boxing so long that he guided Rocky Marciano

through his retirement in 195, the one and only, clad in a vest, as usual, Steve Bunce. I've got to keep the vest on, Stace. Imagine guiding, what advice would you give to Rocky Marciano? The man's 49 and 0. He's an untouchable heavyweight.

He's an absolute idol. What'd you say to Rocky? Now, listen, Rocky, don't mess it up in retirement, son, because you've done so well in the ring. I'm not quite sure what you would say to Rocky. Well, first of all, I want to ask you Buncie about why it's so important to talk about this and why indeed we're having this special this evening to talk about this topic?

Well, I've not been around since 1955, although it's a lovely idea, but I have been around enough in the last 40 or years to see various boxes from guys like Josh, you know, stadium fighters, big event fighters, undisputed champions, guys that made good money, guys that were. Brilliant. And also guys that maybe didn't make good money, guys that had 70 or 80 fights and maybe lost 60 of them, you know, as we call them, journeymen. And their journey into life after boxing. And I've always been fascinated by the difference between the two. And maybe there are no differences between the two. And obviously recently we had Ricky Hatton. You know, now, Ricky Hatton to a generation, really, as it was pointed out to me earlier, I was reminded earlier on, he was as famous to part of the modern, say the last 10 years for his openness about his mental health issues as he was about

his fighting, to be perfectly honest, if Ricky Hatton is known because he, you know, he took that whole mental health issue into the ring, if you like, after he'd finished boxing and he had a battle with it and he struggled with it and he dealt with it and he openly talked

talked about it. So Ricky's an extreme if you don't mind me saying so stays, but it's a good starting point for discussing and talking about life after boxing. Certainly, lots of discussions after it. Dom, you've seen many boxers struggle in retirement,

and we'll talk more about individuals in just a moment, but it is something that seems, in different ways, albeit, but it does seem to affect almost every fighter in some way. Just the very nature of fighters, they spend all the life,

doing it on the self and fighting. They don't want to ask for any help. And, you know, you've got to have that kind of mentality because when you're going to a fight and Josh will back me up on this one, you're never going to a fight thinking you're going to get beat, that you're going to get cut, they're going to get knocked out, you think you're going to win, when you've got to have that belief in yourself and it's when a problem comes along in life, it might be difficult, but as a box you're going to think, I can get past this, I know I can do it.

It might be difficult. It'll be hard, but I'll get past it. But it's like then getting knocked out in a fight and thinking, I didn't see that coming. And that's what happens in life in boxing. I have to think, you know, example being Ricky, other fighters, you've got other fighters, you know, it's happened to. So, you know, it's very, very difficult because fighters, all the ones I've ever known, all the ones I've ever known, that all the same mentality, you know, whether they were good, they were bad, they always had that belief. And that's the difficult part of it because they just won't ask for help because their

personality, they're all ego, is nothing based on asking anybody for help. It's, I can do this, I can conquer this. It's still very raw for you, Josh, but you have been really opening candid about how, retirement has impacted you, which again, we'll go into more detail in the moment. But first of all, how are you doing now and how are things at the moment for you? Yeah, I'm okay now. I mean, I have been struggling a little bit. I would be lying if, you know, I say as if everything's being rosy and, you know, being good. No, it has been a bit of a rocky road for the last four or five months.

I've just been kind of, I don't like using the word depression, but it's been kind of up and then down and at the bottom of a valley. you know, at times, you know, and I've been struggling how to deal with it sometimes. That's the end of my sort of road and that's the end of my purpose and sort of life of kind of sort of thing. But no, it's been also,

the other side that's been, I've been looking back on my career and what I've achieved in the sport and where I've came from from a skinny little spotty 15-year-old boy with no girls. That's an exclusive bag. Get that on the website a bit surface.

That's got a step. in the part. No, absolutely. It's got it staying. Yeah. I just let it go there, didn't I? No, it's like, just like from being 15 year old, I have no money and spoilt and spoilt.

And just to then become an undisputed world champion, you know. And then to, for all of a sudden to be over, through no, like through medically, really, through injury, really, it was kind of like falling off the edge of a cliff. And just like, all of a sudden, I'm at home. Everyone's at work. My wife's at work. my mum and my dad's at work

all my friends are at work I'm in the house on my own all the time not doing nothing you know so I ended up in a bit of a dark place for a few months you know and I wasn't didn't know how to kind of deal with it

so I ended up in a kind of low place for a number of months but what did help it a little bit I was I was getting invited to go into boxing shows do a little bit of punditry but I'd done a couple with Steve and stuff like that

so that kind of helped me put you off can I help lift that a little bit you know and help lift that sort of... Were you able to talk to people about that at the time? Because I know afterwards you've done interviews and again we'll go more into that but

at that time when you're in that low point, sat in that house on your own, after having the most incredible highs that any boxer would dream of were you able to talk to anybody then? I wasn't really... Why not you think? I don't know. I just felt like I was maybe

moaning to people or getting on people. You know, there's bigger problems in life than boxing and people are retiring from sport, you know, so there's bigger problems out there in the world than me more than about my boxing being over. But to me it was like the end of my purpose and life and sort of didn't know what to do and then all of a sudden I'm travelling all over the world,

never at home, all over the place to all of a sudden just being stuck in my living room every day. And it's interesting, Josh, isn't it? And everyone can relate to this, that having that viewpoint towards yourself of, there's worse things, I've got to get on with it, you would never say to a pal. Like if one of your pals,

message said, Josh, I'm really struggling with this retirement. You'd never would say, come on, mate. No, definitely not. You'd be compassionate, wouldn't you? But we don't afford it to yourself. Yeah, I think I don't know what it is. I don't know if Dom couldn't agree with me or that as well. I don't know if it's just a manly thing or a sort of bravado sort of thing.

With guys know feeling how we share their problems and stuff like that, they maybe wait till they've maybe had a drink or two and then it all comes out. Yeah. I think it can affect men more that way, but I can only have. speak from my point of view that I was exactly the same. In fact, to me, retiring, and it was obviously never at the level that you had, never had that opportunity, but for me, it felt like a death. That's what it was like.

It was like the five stages of grief that you're in a bit of denial, then you're angry, then it was all of those conflicting. And I think it helps you once you understand, ah, this is maybe what's happening because you don't understand what's happening. So even though we think we can all agree, Ricky did help by opening the doors and saying, And it's not, I mean, basically one of Ricky's lines was it's okay to not be okay, which is, you know, one of those Samaritan lines, which is a good line to throw around.

And even though we'd seen that and we'd heard Ricky's testament, you might have been at one of his gigs when he talked about it. You still felt like you were on your own or you needed to be on your own and you didn't turn to someone. And I think you summed it up, Don, is that they don't want to ask for help. Generally, boxers don't want to ask for help. Well, Josh had me worried then because I saw Kelly Maloney more. moment coming that he was possibly

going to change to somebody else to avoid this situation, you know, to avoid the downside. There's a rule on Five Live, I'm the only human being allowed to talk about Kelly Maloney, so watch yourself. Don't trespass, don't trespass. I'm saying nothing. Yeah, it's right and I think it's like anybody

who's been in boxing, you've been in boxing a long time, I mean, you've been a writer, you've been a broadcaster, radio, TV, everything, and you're constantly in that role. I've had various roles in boxing, and for many, many years, I was born into a boxing family and I have identified as a boxing trainer. And there does come a point where people say to me now,

you know, what, you do, I go, well, I just keep people fit and talk to people because I can't really pass myself off as a boxing trainer because I'm not doing it to the extent that I was. And when you have to accept that, it's only a very small part for me. You know, I've been in the ring with the likes of Nazim Hamid, Johnny Nelson, Kelbrook, and when the crowd goes up, it sends the hairs on the back of your neck. Now, Josh is the main player That must be a thousand times worse

So, you know, it's very difficult For me as a trainer, it's difficult to come down from that high It takes about a week So it goes on and on And the highs are high and the lows are low And for me, I'm not a boxer, I'm not getting hit in the head You know, I do feel That when they're going to the ring

They've got the weight of the world on the shoulders Because they're going into fight for the country, So to speak, and the fans, they feel it's a duty they've got to come out and win and if they don't win. They think they've let people down. They don't think they'll let the self down. They think they've let everybody else down and everybody's going to be on the case.

We're also going to hear from Frank Warren, boss of course of Queensbury promotions. Robert Smith, General Secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control and Paul Speak, the long-term manager and close friend of Ricky Hatton. Before we go into that, though, I want to explore some of these conversations about the way that things have gone for certain individuals.

It's different for everybody. Bonsie, I want to ask you about one. It was one of the stories that really struck me in your recent book. You can pay me for that plug later. Thank you. Around the world in 85 is whatever it's called. Still available. Kirkland Lang.

Now, what a crazy story here. I had unbelievable talent, beat Roberto Duran, of course, in 82. And he mentioned in that story about filming with him. And I looked that up and I watched it, you know, as I was reading your book, I grew up on stories of him because my dad was in the same stable as him under Terry Lawless and he just said he was absolutely phenomenal but Terry Lawless had to

I won't use the word he used but had to be on him every single day and it wasted talent but a lovely lovely man that's right it's so heartbreaking how he was when you found him I mean Kirk had life after boxing whilst he was still boxing since take massive breaks I think that's a fair commentist I'm not being flippant to talking ill of the dead

Kirk had so much talent and he knew he'd wasted it That's why he carries off in his last fight He was 40 years of age And he just He had no preparation Whatsoever for life away from boxing Other than just doing what he did

Which was wandering around Hackney Downs With his dog Floating around Smoking a Spliff every now and again Or most of the time And just And just just

It just fell into You know Fell into bad company and I'm not sure anything could have been done to help Kirk he's an extreme He's an extreme He's an extreme he's an extreme He's an extreme example

But at the same time At the same time he can be used As a poster boy For what not to do For just that For not wasting your career For instance I'll just give you a little bit of brief history

And the boys will know this He fights Roberta Duran Easily beats a good Roberto de Rang He just lost his world title inside 13 months, Roberta Durand had made $15 million in two fights. One against Marvin Hagg, lost them, points 15, stopped Davy Moore, Madison Square, Garland, to win a virtual world title. Kirk had had one fight where he made $3,000 US dollars

because he vanished for one year. So he's a poster boy on both sides of the ropes. And Dom, these stories happen. I mean, Errol Bama Graham have heard interviews with him saying he asked that exact question, what am I now, what does this mean? And he talked, Josh, fun enough, about being at home alone, wondering what's next and he credited his partner with getting him out of that

drinking, depression, really had an impact and then of course Kelbrook, who you trained. Why is this something that's so prominent and I know it affects lots of athletes' retirement but it does seem to be catastrophic really serious for lots of boxers? Well, Harold Green came to Sheffield and from Nottingham, same place as Kirkland, I think.

Same, same do you know, and Sheffield people or hard people, but they took him like a son of Sheffield, and they loved Harold Graham. Everywhere he went, you know, they packed out the city hall to watch him. They loved him, they loved his chair, how he was with people. And for a long, long time, you know, eight to nine years, he was the darling of Sheffield. And everywhere you went, we used to run at five o'clock in the morning,

and people are going to work, all right, bomber, you know, and be running. Everybody knew there's a black guy and a white guy running up. They said it was me and him. And, you know, everywhere he went, you know, autographs, He had a stall in the marketplace. They were all coming inside. That's where Ryan Rhodes got into boxing. He met the jewellery stand.

So, you know, they were revered for that period of time. Same with Kellbrook. Sheffield's a great place, half a million people. Same with Kellogg, wherever you go. And they were great fighters. And to live that life everywhere you go and be recognised and ask for your autograph, you know, and, you know, being that famous.

When it stops, I always remember when Kelbrook got beat, probably by probably Earl Spence and he said yeah well wash your mouth out

Bramolet and he went he said he goes I could count on one hand who would message me after that fight

one of them was his dad I think Eddie Ane was another one and two other three people that was it he says whereas after a fight

when I won the phone would not stop it was red hot and it's difficult but you know you have to adjust to that and we always say you know, when we went to boxing shows

and we were in these big world title fights and, you know, you're in front of 20,000 people. Somebody once said to me, oh, you must have seen some great after parties. We never went to one single after party. As soon as we finished at the venue, we were off back home, back to bed. That's it.

Put your slippers on, put your dressing going on, and be normal. That's the way we were brought up. So we tried to educate the fighters that way as well, look, you know, Nass once said to me, I'm the champ. And I went, yeah, you're the champ. And you're the champ, you're the champ, Naz.

I says, in the ring, you're the champ. I says, but outside of that, you've got to forget it. Because that's what people see of you. We know you from being a kid, seven years old, when you used to come in, we know the proper you. So we can relate to that. Do you know what speak you said the other day? Go on the back of what you were just saying then,

Paul Speak, Ricky Atten's manager, he said when we were chatting, he came around to my house, when we were chatting on Monday for this. And he said, we used to get off on private jets. And, you know, he was with him from day one, remember, when he was just a little amateur who, Yeah, of course.

You know, I was building a name from day one. And he said, everything had been laid on for you. And you'd be stood there thinking, what is going on? He said, and I had to tell myself all the time, this isn't real.

It's not real. Because three weeks later, he went to Vegas on holiday, he said, no one knew me. Exactly. Or you're on Ryanair or you're too. It's like, you have to have that. You come back down to that,

and that's the thing when, you know, we used to get flown all over, business and first class. What advice do you give then to fighters? And, you know, I'd love to know if you were giving any advice that, you know, to just try and... Well, we used to tell them what the whole game plan was of boxing.

It's a dangerous game. You're getting punched around the head for 10 or 12 years. Maybe more if you're looking. And we said, look, the purpose of this game is to earn money. So when you finish this dangerous sport, like at 30, 32 years old, you don't ever have to work again. So although we were getting paid, it was imperative that we educated these kids, what to do with the money.

We got them an accountant. We got them VAT registered. They got the contracts. the money would be saved. They'd be encouraged to save. Investments. Investments in properties. You know, Junior witter, Johnny Nelson, Kig Gallard, Kelbrook, they've all got the money.

Naz has got his money. So, probably after the Errol Graham period, because we didn't manage, I didn't manage Errol Graham, we trained him, my dad trained him. He was a bit different then. He was one of the big earners. But after that period of time, when we saw what had gone on,

all the fighters that we got to the British title level, we're always giving financial advice, get them an accountant, get your accountant every year, you know, because we're all part of that. We're getting money off them. We're sending invoices. they're sending stuff to us. So it's easy if everybody's on the same page.

And the last thing that we want is some fighter having to get into the ring and have a fight. He doesn't want need to have or, you know, for money, he should be getting more because he's got to pay for tax bill. You don't want to be in that position where you're taking fights

because you have to take the fight because you're skin. So you get the fighter in place, earning the money. They can pick and choose. Did anyone have any conversations like that with you, Josh, or do you wish they would have done? No, not really.

I kind of, I learned a lot of it through being in the same camp by Carl Frampton. You know, he had, you know, lawyers and accountants set up and limited businesses and stuff like that so you can take dividends and things, that kind of stuff. So I kind of learned it from that. And then I also learned, like, through GB as well. They sort of kind of taught me to sort of set up a limited business and all that kind of stuff and get yourself an accountant and that kind of stuff. So I kind of learned it through that.

So I kind of had good advice advice from that or just learning, watching and learning from what my before me were doing. So yeah, I've done it that way. But so many fighters, even smart fighters, willing to their career, are still struggling to set up a business and they haven't made contact with a lawyer. Or they get the wrong advice.

Sometimes worse than your advice. Talking to Robert Smith, when we were here in interview later, talking to Robert Smith, that's what he said. He said, just because someone's giving your advice, doesn't mean it's good advice, doesn't mean it's the right advice. And that's where you need to use. And I'm going to steal a quote from your lawyer, Tom, who's got this great line. It's a beauty parade.

You know, you can go and speak to six accountants. You could speak to 60 accountants. You know, before I settle with a guy I've got at a moment, I spoke to five accountants. I was with Fordham and they were rubbish. And if I need a lawyer, I'll speak to two or three lawyers. So fighters do have the ability to do that. But they're young when they turn pro. You're a bit older.

You're a bit more. You're a bit seasoned in the sense. You're a man already. But a 21-year-old kid who's not got a lot of life experiences, he doesn't really know to do that. As you want to do his fate. Exactly. And you're going to fight forever and win titles.

All you want to do his fate. Certainly are. One thing I didn't think I did tonight is you talking about a beauty parade, which you definitely haven't been on. But anyway... There's no need for that. There's no need for that. Still true.

Before his death, Ricky Hatton, of course, who've been talking about, spoke very openly about his struggles coming to terms with life away from the ring. And earlier this week, as I was just mentioning, I sat down with his manager, Paul Speak, reflect on Rick's boxing career, his post career and how he dealt with life after boxing

and I began by asking him where Rick's head was at when he finally made the decision to retire from the sport in 2012. I think mixed emotions obviously he'll be sad that he can't box at the highest level anymore we talk to it often he used to say to I said do you miss it? Because I miss it

every single day I miss it. The roar of the crowd there's only one Ricky at and you know who wouldn't miss that but at the same he accepted that he hadn't got it. And for Rick, it was about redemption because he felt that he'd let the fans down. And he hadn't let the fans down in any way, shape or form. But it was his way of saying, I'm sorry.

Let the fans down with Paciel? Yeah. Yeah. And obviously some of the other things that had gone on his life. Yeah, of course, personal stuff. Yeah, he felt he'd let people down. He didn't understand how much he was loved. I mean, you could literally hear a pin drop in.

in the Manchester arena when he went down with the body shot. And that was it. So, but we'd always done various other things outside of boxing when I first started to open. I said, you know, it's not going to last forever this and you need to make sure that there's something that you can look forward to when you do recite officially,

permanently forever, etc. Did you think he was able to do that, either, maybe not straight away, obviously, but at some point that he was able to look forward to life beyond and outside boxing? Yeah, he went into training. You know, boxing training. He trained every level.

He had a champion from area title all the way up to world title. And he actually promoted from area titles all the way to world titles. How important was it keeping him busy? Because we know he was really busy, whether with more sort of leisure things like going to watch Manchester City

or, you know, doing a bit of punditry here and there, doing lots of after-dinner speaking, dancing on ice at one point. How important was it in being busy? It's very important, and I think what you need to understand is that he actually became a brand. So for a brand,

you've got to keep it relevant. So yes, you go on the road, do the sportsman's dinners, and then that leads to Officer of television. He did some television shows you've never heard of. Why? Because sometimes it's not just about the brand. It's about a bit of fun. So sometimes, you know.

And he had the personality for that, didn't you? Not all sports people have, but he did. We've got on the Jonathan Ross show. It's like, yeah, okay, right, what are you plugging? What do you mean, what we're plugging? Well, have you got a book or have you got a documentary coming out? No, we just wanted to go on Jonathan Ross show because they said, we've done it. You know what I mean?

But the thing about boxing is, you don't know when it's going to end. You can plan as much as you want, but you don't know when it's going to end. Most boxers start out wanting to become a world champion, which is, I think that's every boxer's dream. Harris reality is very few were going to get there. And your career could end at any moment, but it's a short career. Because generally speaking,

boxes start out in the early teens, maybe even 10, 11, 12. But one knockout or one, you know, it could be over with. But realistically, they're going to be retired by the time they're in the mid-30s. And have they considered about the future? So for me, when I was, as you know, I was in the place, I joined 31st of August

1976 and retired the 1st of September 2006 I knew to the day when I was going to retire I planned for the retirement and I was fine with retiring I quite enjoyed the new challenge you look at boxes when they retire dependent on the success level

most of them want to stay in boxing either as a trainer or possibly even a manager and it's just a conveyor belt there are exceptions but I think most people When they start out, I think there should be more awareness of this may not last very long. And what's your plan B?

Do you think Ricky would have struggled anyway separate to retirement? Or do you think it was purely retirement or a mix of the two? What was it for Ricky, who you knew so well, so not boxing in general, but when it comes to Rick that made retirement so difficult for him, the person he was, do you think? Obviously, when he first retired, it's raw and he used to say to when I don't like going to the matches said there's a fight on that the Manchester year, he didn't like it because he'd go there and they're all sheds

and there's only one wiki out, and when his name was about, he felt uncomfortable with it because he missed the fact that he wasn't in the ring himself. But he got used to it over the years. And also, you've got to consider with Rick he retired 10, 15 years ago, and Edding 12 was 50. He was a realist.

He understood that he wouldn't be able to to fight at the same level and it had gone. It had actually gone. So he was quite happy with that. He enjoyed the exhibition that he did with Marco. That was good for him.

He really enjoyed that. He got the weight off. He looked at a million dollars and he was in with a friend. He actually enjoyed it. He loved it. So it was good for him. He could sense that though,

the whole in the changing room before. Yeah. He was buoyant. He was delighted and walking. I just happened to be behind all of you because obviously the blame was coaching him for that and Brad Ray my teammate had just boxed earlier that night

and I just ended up walking out with all of you to then go to my seat with my dad and it's unbelievable isn't it that wall of noise and sound that you met with as you enter the arena from the corridor it's to walk out behind him is

gives you a taste of just that rush that he must have felt it's incredible when he fought at the Manchester City football ground 58,000 people screaming his name, the likes are flashing. It's addictive. I don't know what anybody's saying. Yeah.

But he had come to turns with retirement. And he was actually of an age now where he was concentrating more on his social life, as he having more holidays and spending more time with his family. Yeah. So there does come a point where you just go, yeah, enough's enough. But Rick was fortunate as well that he was financially secured. Yeah. And that's another consideration when you're thinking.

think about retirement, which we're not touched on, is finance. Because if you're earning great money and then suddenly it's gone, and if you're not invested your money well. Or even those you have, that's a separate thing that's quite addictive, isn't it? If somebody's putting millions and millions and millions on the table, even if you've got millions on the bank, it can be difficult for people to sit down, whether they need to do it or not. I know, I question that one.

How many millions is enough? Yeah, exactly. Listen, you know, we've all been critical of the Jake Paul situation. I don't know what Anthony Joshua got with. Someone turns up and says... Offers you that, yeah. It is under a million dollars or pounds or a... Yeah.

I think... Would you think twice, no? Of course not. That's Paul Speak, Ricky Atten's manager and long-time friend. We've got the news in just a moment, Buncie, but, you know, I really appreciate speak his time because it's still very raw, and it's been incredibly difficult for him, as for everyone. He was somebody who was very loyal to Ricking

and made sure he had something set up on opportunities straight away. Close to a unique relationship in our business, to be perfectly honest with you. He made some great points there, Speaky. There was a great line he used the bachelor's, so you don't know when you're going to, when it's going to be over, when you're going to retire. Then there's a great line about at the end of the day, you've got to worry about retirement,

which sometimes forces fighters to go too far. But the real line I like there was something we talked about before we came in here tonight was that Ricky actually didn't like going to big arenas first because he'd walked out with his fat suit on or his gloves on to fight with people screaming so suddenly he's back in that same arena and there's

20,000 people screaming and he didn't like that and yet Josh when we went to Lewis Cocker last against Palladonovan he loved being there. I'm not talking for you but he was like itching he was like standing up at ringside 25,000 people screaming and he's getting lots of love he was

he was loving him. Got more love there than I did when I was fair yeah it's true yeah we'll give you some more love tonight Josh, that's for sure. This is Five Live Boxing. Yes, welcome back to this Five Live Boxing special. It's life after boxing where we're exploring how boxers can struggle immensely, making the transition from boxer to, let's say, normal person.

And that adjustment can be enormous for some. I'm Stacey Copeland alongside me as former undisputed, like Whale-to-weight, world champion Josh Taylor. We've got World Championship trainer, Dominic Ingle as well, and a bloke called Steve Bunce. It just seems to pop up everywhere. But anyway, we're delighted that is with us. Importantly now, we've talked about some of those individual stories.

Josh, of course, you've talked about your very recent experience, very raw experience of having to retire to injury. What we want to focus on now is what more can be done, possibly, to help boxers. So I would like to start with you that what helped, you know, we heard speaking there say, Ricky didn't want to be in the big area. is our at boxing for a while. Others, they want to be around it straight away. I know that you like a bit of a dabble on a motorbike as well.

You get that adrenaline from speed, I guess. What are the things that helped you? Well, as I say, I was kind of in a bad place mentally when I first retired. And I don't like using the word depression, but I kind of was in a really bad, dark place at the time. I never knew how we deal with it. All of a sudden, just being on my own and nothing to do and kind of felt like my life's purpose was over and done with.

So it was kind of a dark place for me at the time, you know, all of a sudden in my house on my own, all day, every day, you know, when everyone's at work and all that sort of stuff, never had nothing to do. So, yeah, it was kind of, it was a tough time mentally trying to adjust and stuff like that. So, yeah, there can be things done. But, yeah, I was unfortunate, obviously,

my wife, she's my best friend, you know, she's helped me a lot. So, and a lot of my friends and stuff. as well, I've been able to talk to and stuff. But at times in between when you're on your own, it's very hard to deal with. And a lot of the times, for me, a couple of the months beforehand,

I was trying to deal with it with having a drink and going up having a good time. But then they'll say, what goes up and must come down once you're sober up and after you've had the laugh, you're left feeling the same. Maybe not even worse because you've got a hangover. Yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it?

Because it's kind of helping the short term. It's helping the short time, yeah, to sort of lighten the mood a little bit and have a little bit. On that, can I ask you about, you know, in the fact that we've just been talking about Ricky Hatton and obviously, you know, drink was part of his coping mechanism, let's say, as it is for a lot of people. When you heard the news of Rick's passing, how did that impact you? It was a shock for me because I was actually with Steve at the time over in Belfast at the Crocker fight. And it was a big shock for me because Ricky, for me, me was a childhood hero, you know, and I really looked up to him and, you know, to hear that

and for that to happen to one of my heroes was just like a kind of major shock, you know, kind of a really sobering moment, you know, and I actually phoned my dad and stuff because I hadn't been really speaking at my dad and stuff since I retired and things and my family and stuff. So I was kind of struggling, and that kind of sobered it up a little bit and I says, right, I'm going to have to maybe grab the bull by the horns a little bit and kind of talk about it. how I'm going through mentally. Maybe a bit like a wake-up call then. Yeah, a little bit.

I don't want to go down that path. In the most horrible way possible, you know. Yeah, it kind of was. So then I started to speak to someone again to sort of help me get through the how I was going through it. So yeah, it's kind of, that kind of triggered my way to then changing my mentality. Yeah, because I was trying to deal with it

sort of with having a drink and having a laugh. But all that was doing was masking it and making it worse. And I think sometimes the people around you can think, think they're helping with that. Let's take them out for a drink. Let's give them a night out. Let's cheer them up and actually it can sometimes be a slippery slope. Yeah, definitely. And Don, I think it's important to mention that there are some charities and organisations already working to support boxes at the ringside charitable trust. There's also boxes in need which has just gained charity status. Trainer Peter Fury is one of many people behind that.

The Xbox's Association as well. My dad ran the Manchester one for that for years. so I know they're really passionate about what they do. And they do stuff, yeah. They really look after the community. And so there's other initiatives too. But Don, we mentioned briefly Kelbrook before. He had similar difficulties and struggles as well. So feel free to elaborate on that.

And also what you think could be done. Well, yeah, you know, not just Kelbrook. I mean, he's the probably most prominent case from hygiene. Obviously he liked his drinking, he's partying. And he was in some dark places. and he's opened up on, you know, on videos and talked about that. But just as we've been sat there listening to this, I've just had a bit of a brainstormer going back to the time when my dad was still alive

and the story of when he went over to see Dave Allen, who was rotting away in a one little bedroom flat somewhere. He says, and Brendan came along. He says, talk to me, give me hug and told me it were going to be all right. He says, and I kind of like woke up. And that was a few years ago. Look where Dave's gone on now. he's had more fighters and come back into it.

And I think, you know, what would, I think would be a good idea is for fighters like, you know, Josh Kell, these high profile fighters to become kind of ambassadors go around do talks like Ted talks. Because young fighters, like Josh said, he looked up to Ricky and Joe Calzaga. They listen to these guys who've lived it. They don't want to listen to somebody else. They want to listen to the guys who've lived it. And I think you get 10, 15 guys like Josh. The Border Control set up seminars where you have to go with. were saying, well, who wants to pay a tenor?

No, they've got to pay a tenor to have the licence renewed every... It's part of their licence almost. Every three months you've got to attend and get these life lessons in boxing. Because realising them that they're not the only ones with problems, these high-profile fighters who've been at the very

top of the game when you'd expect them to be so happy, they're ending all this money, they're getting all the adulation, and they're not. It's not foreign to them then. So they can take the life lessons off these fights. And it gives them purpose, doesn't it? Those fighters to give back. Exactly.

Exactly. And because taking it back, back into the gym, you know, and I'll elaborate a bit further, it gives you a bit of purpose because you're passing on your knowledge and experience. Remember the boxing bin man. Yeah. But Rendon Monroe. Rendell Monroe. No, matter how many fights, he had world title fights. He was still on them bins. And you see him now, fit as a fiddle, happy as Larry, coaching kids, had a great career.

I remember him at the Manchester Velodrome fighting, actually. It was one of the biggest fights out of the ring. You've got to have a bit of purpose. And like people go, he's a dustbin, man. Yeah, but it might be. But that's humbling. But he still went out and did his stuff. You've got to have purpose after boxing

and somebody's got to give you a bit of purpose or you've got to find the purpose. And the ones who do have purpose, they do all right. It's if you're wandering around when your life's being regulated, you're in the gym at Monday morning, you finish on a Friday, you fight on a Saturday. It's regulated for so many years.

And then it's just snatched away from you. And that's what I think's interesting is people always talk about the big nights under the lights. And of course, that's what they're going to talk about. But actually, it's the everyday purpose for waking up. You have a dream every single day that motivates you. Your whole life, what you eat, what you can do,

what you can plan, what you can't plan, evolves entirely around your sport. We do want to hear now from British Boxing Board of Control, the governing body, of course, of the sport here in the UK. It's headed up by its general secretary Robert Smith. Buncey went down to Cardiff this week to find out what's being

done, what should be done, and whether more can be done? More can be done. Somebody's going to say from the side, well, why are you doing this? When you're doing that? Possibly not knowing what we've already tried. I'm a big believer in preventing something first. We have tried. We have a board insurance for death and permanent injury for a boxer, which obviously, as you can imagine, the nature of the sport is very expensive.

Now, I remember doing interviews with boxing and saying, right, you're going to get this amount of money. God forbid something happens. but you should top it up because we can only pay this certain amount for all the... Not one boxer has ever topped it up, ever. We've looked at pensions, right? Trying to sort pensions out.

But when we first did it in the first place, nobody was interested. So it's very difficult because people don't want to... You know as well as I do. If we had a union, would be very helpful. I know the board would like to help set it up,

but it has to be independent of the board. It's what unions are for. But you know, from your experience, of my experience, that haven't worked because no boxer or license would have put money into it. And unless you pay for something, you're not going to get it. And we can't do that because it's a union. It's got to be independent.

Which is why so many unions in the last 25, 30 years are foul, three or four. Absolutely. I mean, I can take you to an old boxing news down in the boardroom from 1940 something, and it will say a union has been set up. It never worked. So, you know, people have got to understand

that if you want to do something, you've got to pay for it. And the other thing is, I know it sounds very careful. powerless, but boxes are self-employed. And if they need assistance, then they need to come and ask for it. I'm very happy to talk to people and give advice, but it's up for them to take the advice. Do you think there's maybe more, you know, you're not a promoter, you're not a manager, and it's not your business, but do you think managers and promoters could offer a different service to them? I think managers should, and I think if you've got a promotional agreement,

then promoters should, I think they can. But it's advice, and you've got to take it on. I know a young individual will look at me and think, why am I listening to Greyhead Gitt? It doesn't know anything about boxing. That's going to happen. But people will take their own thoughts and decide what they want to do.

I mean, when we were young, I don't need a pension. I'm young, I'm fit, I'm strong, I don't need this, I'm young. And then suddenly, bang, you need it. If only. You know, so the boxers are no different from everybody else in society. Can more be done? Yeah. What can be done?

I'm not too sure. but I'm very happy to sit down with people to do it. But it's got to be realistic. So one of the things that I'm always surprised at is how so many fighters struggle when they finish, whether they're six-round fighters, eight-round fighters, southern area fighters, or guys that have been in massive title fights. Is there anything that can be done to ease that transition

from the bright lights or even the not-so-bright lights? Is there anything that could be done? Or again, is that an independent outside of all the control? I think that's very difficult. I tell you why I think it's very difficult, because sometimes we don't know there's a problem until it's in the newspaper or on social media. And if people ring up and say,

this, I've got an issue, we can put them in the right direction. Wouldn't say it's perfect. Don't forget there's more Xboxers than there are boxes now. So you're looking after a wide scope of people. We do have a duty of care to present boxes with regard to all our medicals, etc.

Would I like to have a duty of care for Xboxers? Yes. financially it's impossible. But as I say, if you've got a problem, pick up the phone and we can help. But we don't know about it sometimes. Rob, if you get a young guy comes to you, he's 17 years of age,

he's not been in school, all he's ever wanted to be as a fighter. He's got no educational qualifications whatsoever. Would that affect his application in any way, shape or form? Are you only strictly bothered about whether he's medically, fit and whether he can fight? Every boxer in the country, when they apply for a license, is interviewed by their relevant area council.

They are advised of the dangers of the sport and what they should do with regard to putting money aside, etc., whatever, and looking after themselves. We can't make people do that. I think it'll be difficult to say, right, Robert Smith, you've got to do an apprenticeship. Well, before you get a license, you can't do that. Obviously, I am certainly.

believe you're in they should have a job. And boxing really is a means of of pin money or holiday money. But of course a lot of people are full-time pro and I sometimes wonder how they can afford to do that. Straight away. So straight away. So unless you're in a big camp and whatever,

but it's difficult. Even then, is it wise? Is it wise for a 19-year-old kid to be a young professional and not have to work in any way shape or form? No, I don't think so at all. I'm on your side, yeah. Can't do your head any good.

Didn't think it did your head any good. You need you do something else. By and during camp, but then if 25 weeks or 30 weeks a year when you're not in camp, you need to think about something else. Too much time. So I think, you know, it'd be ideal. There's an ideal world out there somewhere. I haven't found it.

And I don't think anybody else can find it either. But I'm trying. I just want to pick up on something that, obviously, a lot of talk is about things have been set up or initiatives have been proposed. Boxers haven't put into it. They haven't been interested, etc. My feeling is that you have to make it part of the licence if we're going to be really serious about this.

Not an extortionate amount of money, but a bit, whatever can help. Because, for example, nobody would spend all that money on a brain scan every year if they didn't absolutely have to, because you'd just say, I'd rather not spend a grand on that, thanks, I'll just take me chances and box anyway. So if they said... Sorry, Stacey, that's right, you're absolutely right. No one's disagreeing with you, but people listening to this might say, really? Boxers wouldn't have a brain scan

you're absolutely right there was a time when you didn't have to have a brain scan and that'll have been probably came into play probably after the 80s maybe and you're medical it's expensive you've got to have you scan you've got all the you know

there's loads of things you have to do and when you're immersed it and you're in middle of the fight camp and all that and you're young fit and healthy you're going to go for a brain scam for I'm fit and healthy I'm young it's actually a nuisance to you're in anything and you just want it out of the way

so if you say to people you have to whatever these seminars with these former boxers or X, Y and Z, you have to do it, whether it's free or whether it's paid for, or you don't get your licence. Could that make a difference? Or what other suggestions do you think? Well, first of all, I think the board are getting something together with sporting matters,

the Tony Adams, sporting chances. Sporting Chance. Sporting Chance is the Tony Adams charity. That should be an announcement about that soon. The Board's Benevolent Fund is worth talking about this. This is the fund that is full. formed and filled exclusively with fines, almost exclusively with fines. They get tiny donations.

It's all the fines that boxers get. So when Chris Euban gets $150,000, it goes not into the board. Is this the one that should be called the Derek Chazora fund? Yeah, in honour of Derek Delbois-Zer, 42 years of age and 49 fights, he's kept that one going. And as Paddy said, they will miss him when he retires. So that pays up. Robert was telling us, and we've got a pod coming out in a couple of weeks,

because we sat down with him at length, that they paid out £25,000 this year, mostly in £600 payments to different boxers that had applied. Now, there is more that can be done. And one of the things, it's quite simple, it's awareness. Like, for instance, Rob Smith said there that no one calls him, but as you said, Stacey, who think, 1200 professional boxers at the moment,

who would think to call the board? So perhaps just a simple letter, really simple letter, a Samaritan-style letter, you know, that kind of thing, it's okay to not be okay, that kind of thing. If you just sent that out to the 1,200 boxers, and you send it out to the 400 coaches, that would be one thing. That's just a simple way for you.

Well, that's all well and good. I had a fighter. He got a cut eye, I think, and the doctor asked him if we were all right, and he had a bit of a talk to him. And then he had to go and see the board and have a, like, a, see a psychologist,

because he said he felt a bit down. And so he couldn't box for a couple of homes. He had to go through two or three tests, pay out a couple hundred quid a time. So that's the, the other problem there is. That's the flip side. If you go to the board and say, I've got this problem,

like if you're paying bills and you need that money, yeah, 100%. There's that kind of situation where you've got to be careful of. Again, I said to you earlier today, someone listening to that might think, really? Well, I can understand why. If you go to the ball and say, listen, I'm really down,

it's a really bad time for me. I'm in the dark place. I could see the board not letting your box on for a while. So the guy not going, because as you say, because not every boxer makes millions, not every box makes that sort of money. recently, Chris Eubank Jr. Yep. His last performance.

Yep. What did he say afterwards? Shouldn't have been in the ring. Exactly. Yeah, shouldn't have been in the ring. And if he'd have gone to the board and said, look, I'm in this hole, this black hole, then the board, not probably, the board would have probably said, no, you can't fight. And if something had gone drastically wrong that night, what would have happened then? Yeah, and then it's who's accountable, whose responsibility it is. I mean, and this is what I'm saying fighters, when it comes down to it and Josh will say the same thing. Even when Ricky boxed Mani Pacchio in Vegas,

he said he wasn't well before the fight. He didn't feel great. And he didn't want to let all the fans down. But we only realised afterwards, Don, so if we interrupted him what he was talking about, we thought he was carrying an injury. There's only afterwards we realised that he wasn't right. Exactly.

But he said everybody booked time off work, flights. If I'd have cancelled, then I lost everything. And imagine doing that, you know. Horrible. That's got to be one of the worst places to be. You know, Ricky. in the ring and you don't feel right. He was known as the man of the people, weren't it?

And he will have consciously thought that. Yeah, absolutely. Josh, love to get your thoughts on this of what we've just been listening to. And, you know, all of the aspects we've been talking about, the financial side, the support afterwards, who it should be down to, who it could be down to. It's hard to say who it's down to.

But I agree with what everyone's been saying. It's great ideas. But Robert Smith is in a very difficult position to try and set something up. and how do you go about doing it? You know, it's a, it's just a, it's a big trap. You don't know how it goes up, who's going to set the fundings up,

how it's going to happen. So it's quite tough, but I do think maybe a group or something to be set up to people who talk about things would be good, but then boxers being boxers and going through personal things as well. You don't want to share your problems with other people.

And also it needs to be confidential, you don't want to literally be bringing the office. Yeah. where there's everybody in there. It's a hard one to try and solve, you know. So I'm not envious to Robert Smith at all. No, no. Absolutely not.

However, if you keep doing the same thing, you're going to keep getting the same result. You know, do we just keep saying forever and ever? He'd mentioned that box of news for the 9040s. Are we going to be here in 20, 24? We've tried it and it didn't work. That's what we need. Yeah, we need a...

Yeah, because something's got to... You know, it's no good just saying, we've tried something and it didn't work, and it never works. Like, it never will. And interestingly, we can hear now from Hall. of fame promoter Frank Warren, of course, has been in the business for over 40 years.

He's seen plenty of boxers come and go and guided their careers. Muncie, you went to speak to him and asked about whether ex-boxers have ever come to him for help or advice. Some do, some don't. I mean, you know, if you've got first to remember, what the relationship is, we promote the boxers, but the boxers have

managers, so we don't have daily dealings with the boxers. We have dealings with managers. Inverably, you only see the fighters at the press conferences and the shows. So their relationship and who they do business is with the manager. And, you know, as you say, some do ask, and you talk to them, you know, and...

And over the years, there have been some fairly high-profile boxers that have gone on and suffered later in life. I mean, a lot of the 70s and 80s, biggest stars from the 70s and 80s, you know, Charlie Maghry ends up being a dustman, Lloyd Hunnigan, you know, down... I mean, I'm not talking out of turn. Yeah, but it's not because you're a boxer that's happened. It's business decisions.

You know, Charlie had a sports shop. And then he had a pub. Then he had a pub. So if he's not falling on hard times, it's not because of boxing. Because of boxing, he was able to invest in a sports shop, invest in a pub. If those businesses didn't work out, I don't know what reasons why, then they didn't work. Maybe it's the economy or who knows what it was. But bad investments, I've got no idea.

And there's a lot of that. There's also some fighters who, with their money, give it to invest in things which don't work. But there are a lot of fighters who do extremely well. But that's life. For every boxer you're talking about, I could tell you 10 footballers. Yeah.

I could tell you rugby players. I could tell you people from life. That's life. Some people look after money. Some people are unlucky. Some people go on and do bigger and better things. I take that on board completely. And then, you say,

box are just like normal people. Some succeed. Some don't. Some mess up. some don't mess up, some listen to good advice, some listen to bad advice. Is there anything that could be done? So if the border control initiated something that, you know, the sort of post-boxing career help, is there anything that could be done?

Can I just say something? You know what? I helped a boxer years and years ago. He came to me, talking about he had some money to invest and whatever, and he wanted to buy some property. I'm not going to tell you it was. And I said to him, yeah, I'll help you. And I did do that.

And I put me in touch with somebody I know who had some, houses or whether it was they were selling and he wanted to put some nurses in they wanted you know use some nurses to rent out turn them at the flats whatever and they'd done their deal I don't even know what their deal was they'd done their deal and in six months the property market crashed just crashed yeah so everybody got it was involved in property you if you owned a house you would have suffered the property market crashed and he and next me I'm getting a solicit as less for him saying that I advised his client which I didn't advise him.

He just asked me at a point with someone. I've done all that thing. And I was quite pissed off with that. And we went... Arrages. But because it's time and the thing was going to go to court, by that time, the property market had recovered. And now the property is worth more money than he paid for it,

which he didn't come around and say, hey, Frank, I've made some money. So after that, I would not go anywhere near it, get involved. It's really simple. Go and see an accountant. There's lots of good accountants around. There are lots of good lawyers around They're the two people you need to see

You have an accountant for a reason You have a lawyer for a reason You want to listen to anybody who comes out to woodwork And takes you money off you Because you know You can see some lunatic scheme And I've seen lots of fighters Get involved in that

That happened But that happens to people from all walks of life You don't happen just to fighters And it happens to a small amount of fighters It is what it is That's not anybody's responsibility And it's not the border controls responsibility The border controls responsibility to a fighter

is to ensure that the health aspect of his career is looked after. Because if he's earned a lot of money, he wants to know what bank it's in. That's the important thing for the border control. It's not the on us on them and unions. Barry McGuigan formed a union many, many years ago. One of about five in the last 30 years, yeah. I think it was the TUC backed it and put money into it and whatever.

And they formed this, a company was called the Boxers. I think it was your Boxers Union. The boxers union and I think I'm right. All the boxers at the end of the day were signing, you know, let's get the union, the boxer's rights. So what you have to do of a union, you have to pay, I don't know, five quid a week or where it is, two quid a week, whatever it was in. Do you know how many people put their money in?

One boxer. So do me a favour. When you've done your money, you want to blame somebody. Oh, that was this, I should have got a bigger purse, I should have got this. I didn't listen to this one. I listen to that. Go to your accountant. Go to your lawyer. That's where you're with your money. You know what you've got. Invest it. Invest it wisely. Not just some financial advisor, whether it may be. Invest wisely. He's always good value, Frank, isn't it?

So he's obviously had a few experiences that have left him a little unhappy with this. But just to give us a bit of hope, because we've talked about all the difficulties here. We've talked about all the things that have been tried and haven't worked. let's leave everyone with a bit of hope Dom and Josh will this be solved? It can be but you know it's education at the end of the day we always with our fighters

we live in the community we had everybody from if they didn't live in Sheffield they came to Sheffield they lived in Sheffield we had a community everybody did everything together and we realised that if we wanted to make money and be successful the fighters had to be in a good place they had to be all put together

they had to have the good advice because that was protecting our investment so the fighters that listen, we didn't have one fighter. All the fighters who listened, they all made money. The ones who didn't listen didn't make money. So even education or support for coaches then as well

because we shouldn't expect them to just know all this. No, but this is the thing. We obviously came through generations of boxing families so my dad had a philosophy where you had to look after fighters. He was a fighter yourself. He was managed by several people. He got thrown into the deep end some, you know, some fights. He got knocked out a few times. And

it became a good coach for a number of reasons. But one of them is because he knew how to manage people because he'd been in that position himself. Can I just ask, do they talk about that when you get your, you're like, because obviously I've only had a boxer's license, not a manager or a trainer. Do they talk about any of that about how to support? Not really. They just tell you, you know,

the percentages on what your duties are. But, you know, you've got to take it beyond that. It can't just be a business relationship. And I think if ours had had just been business relationships, we wouldn't have got as far as we did. You have to have the human element of being able to communicate. And my dad was very good at communicating with people. He had the same mindset. He knew where they came from. You know, they could associate with him.

and they listened and believe what he did. And that's the thing. We protected our investment by making sure these kids were fit and able and ready and in a financial place where they weren't under pressure to fight because they got no money.

Everything was told to them. Whether they, like Frank said, whether they did it or not was down to them. But you gave them the advice, they were educated and they were informed. And you would expect,

you know, we would expect that people already know this like, you know, Josh had to learn it off somebody. You don't learn it. You don't just get it. Somebody has to tell it you. So that's what we did.

And I think, They should be a bit of an onus on the managers to have that kind of mentality where you explain to the fighters. A duty of care sort of thing. Exactly, duty of care because it's not just about getting the money and getting on to the next one

because boxing's a damaging sport and you need to get in, get your money and get out before you get too damage to spend it. Just a final couple of words from you, Josh. What would your advice be to... You've done it all at amateur top level, pro top level, now retired. What would your advice be to a young fighter

or someone guiding them coming through now? Very similar about Don. says but also like just you've got to just live the life and make sure to dedicate yourself try and surround your people surround yourself with people that are positive thinking and sort of try to look out for the best of you you know it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of just kind of just and also just one thing I always know it you've got to believe in yourself and do it yourself and if you're not enjoying it boxing is the most brutal of sports out there in the whole world if you're not dedicated to it

And then also on top of that, not enjoying it, then I wouldn't go anywhere near it. You've got to make sure you're enjoying it, but you've got to make sure you're dedicating yourself. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. If you want an insurance in boxing is to be the fittest, the best place you can be, and that's damage and limitation then. Can't take any risks.

Turn up the best you can be. And that's it. Brilliant advice. Well, unfortunately, we're out of time. But, excuse me, if you missed any of tonight's show, it will be available as a podcast shortly, and you'll be able to find it on BBC Sounds. My thanks to Steve, Dom and Josh, thank you so much.

If you need support with mental health, details are available at BBC.com. uk forward slash action line. Five lives, let's get the show on the road on Rod Laver Arena. Good morning, good evening from Melbourne. The Australian Open. How are they both feeling the nerves, the tension, what's at stake? Unbelievable. What a row.

Between now and the end of the tournament, We will bring you a daily pod, recapping the biggest stories and the best of the action on the All About Australian Open feed. The Australian Open, 26. Join us for our live coverage on tennis breakfast every morning from 7am on 5 Sports Extra and BBC Sounds.