5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Parting the Heavyweight Division - Moses Itauma

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

Want to know more about Moses Itauma? How good is he, and how good can he become? Buncey sits down with boxing’s hottest prospect to find out what makes him tick and learn more about his path to this point. We also hear from his promoter, Frank Warren and his opponent this weekend, Jermaine Franklin. Plus, there’s analysis from former world champion Barry Jones.

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next eight weeks, the very best heavyweights, the best known heavy weights, the most feared heavyweights, the most seasoned heavyweights will all be in fights. Alexander Usse, Tyson Fury, Fabio Wardley, Daniel Dubois, Derek Del Boy Chisorra, and Deonti Wilder, and the new kid. And that's what this show is all about. Moses Atama is just 21. He might just be the best heavyweight process. expecting the world. I'm Steve Bunce and this is Five Live Boxing. Now if Moses Atama was an American, we would be saying he's the second coming of something I'm not sure. Just to fill you in, he's 21 years of age, he's British, he's unbeaten in

13 fights, he's stopped or knocked out or bludgeoned 11 of his opponents. He's rarely put a foot wrong or thrown a punch wayward. Everything so far has been perfect in the Moses Atama life. I'm going to try and look a little bit closer at just exactly who he is and just exactly what he's like. We're going to hear from the boxer in a moment. On Saturday night at the car, he fights Jermaine Franklin. I think it's a really tricky fight.

It's a hard fight. And it's a fight that will test just where Moses Atama is. I'm joined by Barry Jones, former world champion. Barry, you and I have both been around Moses an awful lot. We've been around since the very early fights through to where he is. He's now well-ranked by every single governing body. He's number one, I think, with a couple of organisations. Let's not talk about them.

Let's talk about Moses Atama. When did he first come on your radar? I say what, I mean, when he turned over, he said, oh, you've got to watch this kid. Then you go, well, yeah. He's just another heavy way. Everybody says that. You've got to watch his kid. And then, obviously, you heard the stories very early on about him and Lawrence

are Cooley with the sparring. But the part of that story, so he spying with a cruise away world champion. Olympian. Now he, Moses Attaam at this time is either 15 or 16, depending on what version you hear, but both versions have him showing up in the gym in the same clothing. Yeah. His school uniform. Not shorts, let's not rip the proverbial out of it, but he shows up in his school uniform, gets out of his school uniform, barely puts on handwraps, doesn't do any warm up and gets in the ring and pushes around in the ring a world champion.

Well, I know it's true because Lorna Sokolie told me, from him. No, so, you know, you know, and he's honest. He wasn't doing he wasn't saying He was shocked on him Yeah he wasn't saying Like you know Just a jeep for the young kid

He said generally He's like you like give me all Like a handle And you think sometimes When you spout amateurs It takes because they're boxing Like three rounds They're faster it takes your world

To adjust Because as a pros Yeah yeah He's in the longer distances But it wasn't just that To do the angles And it wasn't just launch a coli Yeah

But I think it's the angles I think that's what sets him apart And then you think Oh well look at this kid And then when you watch him And you go It's not the power I mean the other

Because big guys can all punch. And then as he's the level, that sort of disperses at times. It was the angle of shot. I mean, and I can say, I'm not the only one who says this.

It's the finish as well. You can see this. Yeah. He's a big guy. He's like a middleweight. Because he was a small guy. I think that's quite important. I think that might be a telling factor

why he boxes. He wasn't big all his life, was he was like a smaller guy, relatively small, not small as me. But he was like a middleweight for a while as a youngster. So he was learning to box.

as opposed to just being banging normal heavy weight. He was learning to be a different type of fighter. He was learning the fundamental is correct. There was a time when all the top heavy weights in the world had started off as middle weights and light heavy weights and light heavy weights. Some of the greatest heavy.

Mohammed Ali was a light heavy weight. So you learn your trade more because people have just been more adaptable or moving more. But when you're all big lumps, you just got to learn to keep your hands high and throw straight punches. Pretty much, yeah.

There's no fault of their own. That's just how it is. You don't need to learn all the other stuff because it doesn't become a factor with Ben Powers involved. But he learned that and he's kept that as he's matured and

got bigger as a man. He's kept that in his makeup, that movement sets him apart. It really does. And I know there's a story line about the Mike Tyson trying to beat his record and that's no longer going to happen. Which he wasn't happy with Moses. I did a thing with him on Five Live and he was saying I feel a bit of

pressures off my back now because it was a great selling point when he turns professional. The idea was that he would win a world title in quicker time than it took Mike Tyson to win a world title. And that would have been May of 2025. And at some point in 2024, after he'd been a pro for about 18 months or whatever, you know,

we stopped, we stopped what people stopped using that narrative. And I'm pleased they did, because it was an unnecessary burden around his young net. It's pressure you don't need as pressure as it is. Especially, no, there's more pressure. Although, that's it, not the Tyson was a superstar, but it's,

no, I put them in the same category of because of fast they were. See, Mike Tyson had fantastic feet, and people forget that. Yeah. They just worry about that. They think about the hands and the knockouts. Just the power and we knocked every and over.

But his movement to get from A to B was phenomenal. And Moses, in a totally different way, gets there quick. He gets on you, you don't know how he gets. And because there's big guys used to big guys moving like big guys, which is slower and more root one, right in square in front of you, he's coming from this angle, that angle, he's obviously a left, obviously you're right. He's low. He's square on you there all of a sudden.

Then he's round your back. You can't. You don't know where he is. Barry, it might not be by accident. I know from an interview I did with Moses many years ago, he talked about Nassim Hammond. Now he studied Nassim Hamid's feet. Because everyone's the same thing with Nassim people just thought about that,

but he looked at his feet. He was in positions and he let his hands go, and the punches came from his toes and all the way to his fingertips. Anyway, it's been a busy week in Manchester, and it's going to get busier before the first bell on Saturday night. But I managed to get some time with Moses Etama. And I'm basically been asking here, what a lot of people have been asking me, who is he?

I wouldn't even know. I don't know because, you know what? What chance have I got? If I'd be completely honest, my life has moved so fast and has changed so much that I kind of, I haven't really had a chance to kind of... Catch up?

Yeah, exactly. So, you would have told me this last year, I probably would have gave you a different answer, telling me now, I'll give you a different answer for in a year's time, so I wouldn't really have. really be able to tell you. When did you think you might,

did you allow yourself to dream that you might be in this position? Just a couple of days away from headline in a massive arena, 22,000, rank number one, number one, number six, and number 11 by the four heavyweight sanctioning bodies,

being talked about by every other heavyweight, more of that coming up. When did you allow yourself to think that might happen to me, Moses It's armor? I need to start thinking more about these sort of I'm being asked in interviews because I generally, I've never put importance on it, never really thought about it.

I never really, I guess, cared. Did I think I was gonna get here one day, of course, but I just, I wasn't really like, fuss. I was just kind of, you know what I mean? I got an opponent, let's knock this guy out. That was the same with you an amateur as well? Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't, never, like, even when it comes to my boxing, I never thought like,

oh, I would want to say, sell out, arenas, want to sell out, stadiums. Like, no, it was just, I want to be a boxer. Like, I want to fight. So, I don't know. I just never thought about it. And when did you decide you want to be a boxer? Was it, did you just want to get fresh healthy?

Or did you want to be like somebody? I'll be able to tell you this one. Come on then. That's the good start. That's where you should always start an interview. When did you want to be a boxer? It was when I was about 14, 15 years old, and I went to spot Lawrence Coley.

and like I remember turning up to the gym everybody had nice cars nice watches it just looked like it just looked sick and I was Lance a world heavyweight champion he was fighting for his for his first cruiserweight champion

this was against that Gloacki but I don't think he I think he ended up pulling out but yeah I remember turning up to the gym everybody had like range rovers nice watches skydwellers this this, this, that.

And I was just like, yeah, this is probably what I want to go into. So you walk it into a gym, you're big enough, but you're not enormous at that point. And he's a big boy at a company. Why are you laughing? No, no, it's true. I love this schoolboy uniform thing. I'm not going to rip the proverbial out of it

and say you're wearing shorts, but you did have a school uniform when you went to spa with Olympian Lawrence O'Cole. No, that was Joe Joyce. Oh, with Joe Joyce, yeah? Yeah, so I don't know. Is this mad? Because for me it was just a normal,

like for me it was a normal Wednesday after school getting a spa. Like it wasn't, you know, like, obviously my brother Carol, he'll be able to tell you, like, he was training before school at like 11, 12, 13 years old. We'll be waking up at 5 o'clock in the morning going for a run. So it's just like, I guess discipline was kind of, or like naturally being in boxing or being involved in boxing

was kind of second nature. So when it comes to sparring, Joe Joyce, and Lawrence of Coli, I didn't think nothing of it. Like, I was just like, this is just second nature. I didn't see him as, oh, I'm sparring a world champion. It was just like, oh, I'm sparring. It makes sense. And were you 14 at the time, 14, 15 at the time?

So when I was sparring, Laurence O'Cololi, I was 15, Joe Joyce, 16, and then, yeah, the rest, about 16, 17. So what were your boxing influences then? What got you into the gym? What took you and Carol into the gym? A couple of years before then, I'm assuming. So to be honest, like, I had a Nigerian dad. So anybody that's got a Nigerian parents would know what that means.

So I just wanted to kind of get out of the house. Because I'll come back from school, my dad would be making me doing book work until 10 p.m. at night. And obviously, I guess he kind of wanted me to be a doctor or whatnot. But like, I already kind of made up my mind that I want to be a boxer or something, but I just couldn't be in the house. So training with me.

wouldn't even start till like 7 p.m. I'll be leaving at 4 or 5 just to go to the boxing gym. So you're out of the house for a house. So just something out of the house and then like kind of created a brotherhood in the gym and then yeah, it's been... So was your dad against your boxing or he just wanted you, he liked the idea of you being a doctor, like the idea you being an academic, a lawyer or whatever? No, but you know what? Like I get it, like I guess in kind of his culture,

It was kind of like, oh, you need to do something that's going to be solid. Being a boxer, being a footballer, being like a sports person isn't always guaranteed. So, yeah, and then my mom, she was kind of the same. Like, when we first started boxing, my mom didn't like it. I remember my dad come watch me and my brother spa one time, and he was like, I don't feel comfortable. Did he ban you from sparring? No. Just didn't like it.

Yeah, just didn't like it. we just said that's what actually happened he was like oh he was like I come to watch you spa like I didn't feel comfortable sitting there

and then I actually asked the gym because I couldn't tell my dad this but I asked the gym to say that my dad can't come because

so you banned your dad sort of sort of so you actually got your dad band from watching your spa so no he just didn't

he didn't like turn up um my mom she didn't like it at first but then she saw that there's a lot of money in boxing and then she was like, she was like, don't worry about school,

just make them stop calling me and just focus on your boxing. So was that about 15 years of age? Yeah, around that age. And at that point you were going to tournaments overseas, you were boxing in those tournaments. Were you winning them easily? I mean, were these like the four fights, four stoppages?

I mean, I've only ever had one split decision fight. So the whole time as an amateur, I've always won unanimous. So you can say there wasn't easy because training was hard, but I did well. You were winning them all comfortably. I mean, towards the end, you're stopping everybody, it seemed to me. I mean, you're on a massive run of quick stoppages. My last eight amateur fights, six of them were stoppages.

So, yeah, it wasn't bad, isn't it? Especially as an amateur, which is obviously you've got a headguard, you only got three rounds. So let's just clear something up. You definitely, when you turn professional, that was your first contest without a headguard. All of your amateur contests had been with a headguard because you were still classified as a youth

because you were under 18. Yeah, but if I'll be honest with you, we've had a lot of tearouts with no headguard. So to be honest, like me and my circle, was known to be like a boxing circle. So if you had a problem of anyone, And you're getting the gloves on, isn't it? Like we...

To sort things out. Exactly. And like, we used to do it. I remember, like, what we used to do? We used to just, like, anyone had a problem. We'd go, like, to my house. And then just in front of our road, we literally just used to get the gloves on,

be having a tear up on the road. My dad thought I was doing something else. So, at this with people you knew, you'd have disagreed with people you didn't know. You didn't know you'd have a disagreement. No, no, no. So, like, for example, like, if I had a problem with, with someone, I'll be like, I'll call.

Like, after school, we'll go to my house and we'll get the gloves on. And we used to, we used to spar outside the road. And then I actually knocked out one of my mates. He turned up at my house, yeah, at like 10 o'clock or something like that. And then he asked me to spy, yeah, and I was like, I'd call. And I called with a one, two, and he just like, yeah, done, gone. So, yeah, that's how it was.

That's how it was. Like, we was just like a boxing circle. So, like, although I've never had a fight with a headguard on. You haven't plenty of other, harder fights. Yeah, but even, like, in sparring, like, sometimes you're, and I wouldn't condone this and I wouldn't say it's the best idea, but, like, sometimes sparring might get a bit of heating, and then someone takes the headguard off.

But I got, cool, I'm taking my one off as well. Do you like that? I don't, I don't, because sparring should be controlled, but... Shal learning, it's meant to be learning. Yeah, and then, obviously, when the ego's get involved, that's when, obviously, things start going bad. Is there part of you that wants to, and wanted Dan,

who still does now wants to fight? Let's talk to AJ, when AJ was breezing through the start of his, and Josh at the start of his career, he would say, but I still want to fight, I really want a fight, I really want to fight.

Sometimes Robert McCrackle would say to him, no, just do what you've got to do, get the opponent out there. Is there a part of you that wants a fight, wants to be in something like a really great heavyweight fight? You're asking me if I want to take punishment? Yeah, basically. No, no, because some fighters are really honest.

I don't want to do that. Why would I want to do that? And I haven't said, yeah, I want to do it. I want to do it. No, like, maybe other fighters, but in the heavyweight division, you can't afford to do that. Too risky? Yeah, like, no, I don't want to get hit, no.

You just want to win? Yeah, 100%. As quick as possible. No learning on the job in the ring. You can do that in the gym. The thing is the reason why we've got Jermaine Franklin is to, on fighting that it's not about learning. It's about showing what you know.

And, like, you're trying to find the poll nurse that's going to bring certain questions out of you. Did you expect more from Dillian White last year? 100%. Yeah. Did you know before the first bell that you weren't going to get more, as you looked across at him? No.

Do you know what? And I get annoyed as well because, obviously, I wanted a fight to go longer. I've been in training camp for 14 weeks. I wanted to show something. But at the same time, it's just like, you don't need to be there longer than you have to be. Yeah, I was a bit annoyed.

And, like, I guess what's kind of more annoyed? is that like I didn't do I care do I not care I don't I don't really know but it's the fact that like you know I always got like my thing downplayed like that win downplayed um especially by him when he was like oh he hit me in the back of the head yeah and I was that annoy you of course it because it's like I put I put like um I put a lot effort into it I put a lot effort into training and it's it's it's annoying when you don't get the credit you deserve But I guess I'm not really in boxing for credits, am I? But I think, I think Franklin, people are talking to me like it's a walkover.

I think Franklin's a really hard fight. I think so as well. I mean, I think he's really, because he's smart, he's clever, he's still fresh in boxing years. Those two defeats to a much better Dillian White than you got into an Anthony Joshua. It was transitioning maybe, but still a good Anthony Joshua. You know, he wasn't hurt falling all over cut and damaging. Of course not. Of course not. And like, I literally just said this a couple minutes ago.

Like Anthony Josh was a big puncher, right? Yes. Dylan White's a big puncher, right? And like, Jermaine Franklin took their best shots and still gave back. And obviously, like, obviously I'm known to be a big puncher. But just nobody knows what it's like, or nobody knows what I'm like when I get hit on the chin or when I'm going to go into later rounds. Because we haven't been, you might have been there in a gym, but we haven't been there. in real boxing life.

Exactly. So it seems like the perfect fight for me because he's going to bring that out of me. I think, I mean, unless you catch him early in the third round, I can't see how he doesn't bring that out of you. But then even if I do catch him in the early first round, he might not go down. And then that's when I'm like, oh.

What happens then, Moses? Moses, what happens then? You'll find out, in it? See, this is where we get back to this is when we'll find out. You know, we'll find out things about it. We'll find out things. And that's why, like I said, and this is why I think it's a good fight

because we just don't know. We don't know. I did something on Five Live last week where I said this might be one of Frank Warren's greatest ever matches. He got Costa Zoo for Ricky Hatton at the right time. He got Jeff Lacey for Joe Kowzaki at the right time. And I think he's got, in my opinion, Germaine Franklin for you at the right time.

I probably couldn't agree with you more. They both won as well, remember. So you got to pull the triple off? I'm happy with how my career's gone, you know. Although I didn't, although obviously I set myself a goal to kind of beat my Tyson's record, I guess I'm happy that I didn't do that. You weren't you kind of pleased when that bit of pressure came off? Because that was, not pleased, but I can just get on with my career now.

Do you know what it is? It's like when I turn professional, I didn't know that like, you don't make the fights. It's the promoters and the managers. Yeah. obviously I'm running my mouth saying I'm going to do this and that but I was not aware of how the boxing game works

The business wouldn't allow it And it's like maybe like three, four months into my career I kind of realized that I guess this isn't really in my own hands like this is in someone else's hands so then I was just like cool I'm just going to try a bulldozer

everyone over so I can blight I guess push my way into it and although I didn't obviously achieved the record. I managed to fight as a 20-year-old in a headliner in Saudi Arabia against Dillian White. It's not bad, is it?

What's that quote where it's like aim for the moon to hit the stars or something like that? So although I didn't, I guess, achieve it, I've sort of ended up somewhere amongst that level. And like, would you say rank number one, WBA, one WBA, one WBO, six WBC and 11 IBF, they dropped you Yeah, so it's not, like, it's not bad. And like, I'm 20, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've, I'm 21 years old. Like, I don't know what people expect, like, when I'm supposed to be boxing, like, all the top legends right now, like, I've got time. I've got time, haven't you, still? 100%.

Yeah, good, because I feel you've got time now. I don't feel you need to fight for a world title by the end of June or the end of July. I think you need to warm, whoa, whoa, no, no, don't know, let's not put, let's not put some change in my career now. Not sure, it's just, if the world title was there, then obviously course, but if not, like, listen,

I'm, we're in a sticky predicament because obviously the person who is the world champion, he's earned the right to kind of do whatever he wants and he's exercising those racks. This is Usik in front of the pyramids

against kickbox having only second professional contest for the WBC title. How do you feel about that? I don't blame music for doing anything he's doing, you know, because what you've got to remember? remember is like he's been boxing for years since it was like 13 14 yeah yeah so this is 20

plus years and it's only really in the past three years is he actually making serious money and getting the respect he deserves and getting the respect that he deserves so man if you can go and box him and on stupid amounts of money then do you know what fair play because there's a lot he's done a lot and got underpaid so or he might have not got paid what he should have. So like now he's got the respect

and it's only been recently that he's owning money then man, go do it. But it's just obviously puts me in the predicament because obviously I'm chasing for that and so is Ajikabwe or Laurence Ocoli whatever.

So we're all trying to get to there and he's fighting obviously a kickboxing fight out but yeah man it's the sport we're in. And what about Usik who doesn't really doesn't really do personal stuff,

but he did recently say that he didn't want to break you. I don't want to break him when he was talking about you. Now, some of that may have got lost in translation, and it may have sounded a bit like an Ivan Drago quote, but he basically was saying you're too young, you're too inexperienced, and he doesn't want to ruin your crew at this point.

What do you think of what he said? I think it was a polite way of saying, why should I fight Moses of Tamer? I can fight a kickboxer in front of the pyramids. I can do another fight with X and another fight with Y. That's what I think it was. That's what you think.

That's what I think. I like... Don't blame him for that. When you get asked the question, you have to say something to the media and you're not exactly going to come up on the media and say, no, I'm not going to fight him because he has the potential to ruin what I've done

or to ruin my legacy. I said the potential because... Yeah. Obviously, there is also a potential where he would obviously just... Do I mean? Outbox me, but then why would he take that risk? There's other fighters.

There's other fighters. to fight so yeah man I'm what are you gonna do if you could have a if you could create a a situation where you're fighting at the emirates for a world heavyweight title who's in the opposite corner yeah this sets the emmonds i'm giving you the emirates for fun yeah you'd have to say you'd have to say music then you'd have to say it then you get all those laurels you know like i always pay attention to other people's careers the reason why that is is because there's something that you can learn from everyone like how is it that Uzik has come from Ukraine

his English wasn't the best but he's managed to sell out stadiums in the UK and again and again and again How has he done that? He's loved. Exactly, how has he done that? How has Anthony Joshua a guy of Nigerian descent

able to sell out stadiums in the UK? And he's loved and he's loved and he's loved. And then how is Tyson Fury Tyson Fury is what Tyson Fury is and he's loved and he's loved and he's loved. And he's managed to sell out a stadium. So even though they've all come from I say different worlds, different cultures.

They've all managed to do the same thing. So I guess I can only just kind of pick what's best from each of them. You've just named their three sort of dream fights though. That would be nice, wouldn't that? Those three. Would you fight all those three? I name three people that I respect. And I name three people that I can take from their game.

Would I like to fight any of them? Man, if I get the opportunity, of course, I would never take it. I'll never not take that so. Have you ever disliked and do you dislike any of the potential heavyweights that are out there? I mean, is there one that's upset you over the years or the last 18 months? Because a lot of people have mentioned, you know, in all fairness, a lot of people are talking about you. Your name's getting mentioned by fighters.

I think, I think, I mean, apart from Jake Paul, I think just about every single fighter above 14 stone fans is fighting you. Oh, man, I went to my dad's house the other day and he called one of his friends. and he was like, oh, this guy, who wants to fight you? I was like, Dad, who doesn't want to fight me? That's what I mean.

You're a cash cow, and that's a compliment, you know? It's mad that you're saying that, and I'm only 21. I know, but Moses, it's true. Whether we want to, whether you want to acknowledge it, you don't have to be all singing,

all dancing and blinging on your phone five minutes and being rude, you could still be Moses Atama, but it's true. You are, I would say, a Jermaine Franklin win away from being the cash cow in the heavyweight division.

I really mean, I'll go back to Frank I'll ask for some more money Frank will be on the phone to me in the morning What are you telling him he's the cash cow for Listen It's true because you have to create scenarios

You know so That's the way I hear what you're saying That doesn't mean you're the best heavy weight In the world It just means that I got you I got you I got you

I got you back a little bit You understand me Yeah Come back off the ceiling I'm um I feel like one of the One of the things That I'm trying to stick to

Is trying to be myself I feel like trying to be different nowadays, it's making you the same. We get a bit bored, it's another. Exactly, exactly. And with myself, although I'm not 100% there with my media, and I'm not 100% there in how I feel like I'm able to portray myself in the media, but I'm getting there.

Remember when I first time professional when I was 18, all this was new to me. So it's like now that I'm getting like, you're like in the headlights. Exactly. So now that I'm getting, all right, Steve. That's true. I would be nice to you and really help you.

We found something in common, Nassim Hammond, you love Nassim Hamid. And suddenly you got all excited and animated. It was amazing. But now, now like, now like I'm kind of, I'm used to the camera. Okay, cool. Now it's like kind of portraying myself

how I want to be portrayed. And I'm still working on that. I think a lot of people do forget that I'm only 21. You need to remind people. And not only that, it's like, I'm growing up in front of the camera. And it's like, you're like, I shoot in every bit of my journey and like giving me your opinions on it.

Whereas like, I feel like when a kid is going through these stages of life, he doesn't need other people's opinions. Like he needs to kind of only focus on his own. Just get on with it. Exactly. So I think it's important for me to kind of, um, make sure that I'm authentic, that I'd rather be, I'd rather be hated or I'd rather be underwhelming of people

than being myself or that be loved and be excited about somebody I'm not. What does Moses do away from me? Because you talked to me a couple of years ago, saying, no, I'm not going to go on holiday. I don't go on holiday. This is all I do is train. I train and train.

Yeah, but... You should have told me to relax. Are you getting a private life? Do you have a private life? Of course I have a private life. Everybody's got a private life. We weren't sure. No, no, at first, we were quite worried about you,

thinking this kid's just in the gym all the time. You tell him not to come to the gym, so he'd go to another gym. He doesn't go on holiday. He hasn't been on holiday. He hasn't done this. But you're getting a good social life. I'm not praying.

I'm just asking. Yeah, as you can say, I was a deer in the headlights. And like, I guess setting a big goal as achieving my Tyson's record, I was just solely focused on that. And I didn't care about anything else. And then I remember speaking to town, Tyson was in Saudi, he said, like, you need a hint of not caring.

He said, when you care too much, you just, you just might not be able to do it. Wise words. And I even say the biggest blessing was like when I went over to Malta and to Saudi to train with Tyson, it wasn't even aspiring. It was just being ever to speak to him. And being in Ben Davis and stable, obviously, we always rub shoulders with AJ when he was there. I just used to ask him a question about this and about that. And it's like, I guess that's what I can.

I can take from all these guys because although I'd never want to be like Anthony Joshua, be like Tyson, feel, be like this person, I can take from every person and like I'm slowly kind of maturing into the person I want to be. And obviously, as an 18-year-old kid, man,

in front of the cameras, boxing on a big stage, of course, like, what'd you expect? That story did he be going to beat Mike Tyson's right? Exactly. It was a lot of pressure. I mean, Carl Frant and I used to talk about that. We just say, there's too much pressure.

And I didn't know you guys as well. Yeah, they're cool. Like, there's a lot. There's a lot. Like, you've got to remember, like, obviously, I've been speaking to you for over three years now. So it's like we've kind of built a relationship where you can talk and ban on what. But at the beginning, I'm not really like that type of person. Yeah, sure.

Like, I'm still trying to figure out. There's still people in boxing what I don't like and I would avoid interviews with them because it's always going to dilute the quality of it. We literally had two interviews this morning and, like, two interviews were. very different because of obviously the interviewer so um i wouldn't like yeah so i'm still trying i'm still developing i'm still developing into the person i want to be and that that that's in the ring and outside the ring you're still in the ring is always one goal outside the ring is kind of yeah but you know what i feel like a lot of people have a problem with they don't resonate

change like i want i want people to start understanding that it's all right to change or it's good to because even me, like if I still stayed the same person, like you met when I was 18 years old, I never, like I never had a private life or I couldn't get at the gym. That would be a scary person. I would, that would be a person that was a bit damaged, in my opinion. I'd probably say that's somebody that needs therapy. Yes, yeah, exactly.

I mean that nicely, yeah. Yeah, so I wouldn't say there's longevity in that. No, because. But it worked then. It worked at that point when you wanted, when you were focused. I would say it worked because it showed me that I needed to change. So that's why I would say it worked. Like in order to do something right, you need to first do it wrong.

So exactly. So, yeah, so I'm trying to emphasise change. And guys, change your opinions, man. Like, don't, like, if you learn new information, change your opinions. Like I hate it When you're trying to have a conversation with someone They're so solid Didn't Arly have a great line saying

If you know the same stuff at 50 You knew at 20 You've wasted 30 years It's a wasted 30 Something like that isn't? 100%. And like I'm not saying Staring strong on your beliefs

But if you've learned a new piece of information Question what you've What the belief you had Do I mean? So we might add I might just throw in Everything that you've talked about here today What comes across most

Is it's just the raw honesty It's just honesty. There's no deception of faith. So I've got to ask you one last thing, as we say, thank you and thank you so much. It was a podcast, isn't it? He's not said an interview, but... Yeah, we know.

We'll just chat. It's all over. It's one minute over. Just quickly, what happens first bell, Germain Franklin? Do you visualize what might happen or do you work completely instinctively? Ding, ding, first bell,

22,000 people, you and him and a referee. You know, I've always tried to plan this fight out my head, but then I'll just start getting nervous and I start thinking about other things. I don't know. I don't know, but I hope that I stick to the game plan. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the Dark Web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the Dark Web,

US Special Agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, The darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. So Moses Atalmer, they're answering plenty of questions and giving us plenty to work with. But let's concentrate on a few things, Barry.

His progress in the professionals has been perfect. He's been well-matched. But there are those two fights. I think one was at York. They may have both been at York. where he goes the full six rounds with a couple of guys whose records were 9, 12 and 1

and 7, 7 and 0 he just couldn't get it going against those two Eastern Europeans that was an odd thing we love it when he takes people out we're clashing them anywhere above the way so they fall over like they've been hacked down but there were those two fights

they're like a bit of an aberration in his record all fighters have a couple of off nights Don't get me wrong. They're not even off nights. I mean, you're learning your trade. I mean, because it's our job to analyze and pick a path and critique and criticize.

So you're always looking for stuff. But I mean, nothing is perfect. So you're going to have nights where nothing clicks. You're learning. Things didn't work out because the guys doing something different. You're not used to you. You ever seen it before because it's new to you.

All these distance fights. He just couldn't break these guys, these reluctant Eastern Europeans down. And that's going to happen. I mean, you name me one fighter that's performed A1 in every contest. It doesn't happen. You can't show me one, can you? Even Alexander

lose it, you can't show me one at all. It's impossible. So like Muhammad Ali, all of them, you can't find one in the history of the sport who's had a flawless record, even the ones who were undefeated at bad nights and just won. So, that's somebody, and they're not bad nights, you're just learning fights on his way up.

That's all that is. Now, the interesting thing is that the last fight, which was last summer, in Saudi Arabia, was absolutely perfect in every which way. because Dillian White had been a force inside the heavyweight division. He had fought against Tyson Fury for the world title. He had had that war in the British title fight all those years ago with Anthony Joshua.

He had beaten some really good men. Now, of course, he wasn't the peak Dillion White. But on the night, on that particular evening, that late, late night, Moses was devastating against, even if it was that version, of Dillian White. It was still a devastating first round, knocked down and stoppage. Yeah, it was. It was a good performance because he just didn't, he knew what he had

in front of him, an older guy. Yeah. And you've got to make an an older guy fight at the higher pace, and he just jumped on him. Yeah. And because you got that speed of a middle weight, but the power of heavy weight, then he just, Dylan couldn't cook with him. I mean, there's an argument, would he have caught with it

a few years ago, I'm not quite sure he would have. You might not have gone all so early, but I mean, you, time is everything in this fight, I thought that fight, though, in my opinion, was wasted because Moses Hamas got everything to be a superstar, the ability to be a world champion and to reign for a long time. The one thing he lacks, which will come because he's a heavy boxer, is the fan base.

But Dylan White has a fan base. If that fight was in the UK, in London... Enter the ring as the bad, he beat the ring as the goodie. Everyone knows who Dylan White is, and you steal his fans. Dubois did a little bit of Anthony Joshua. that night of Wembley. Exactly. Enter the booze, leave the cheers.

And then you box Chazana and try and do it with him. I mean, that's a dangerous fight. But I mean, that's how... I thought that would have been the route for me, in my opinion. But obviously, the money in Riyadh was so good in Saudi Arabia. You had to take it. I mean, everyone had to say, Tillian had to take it. He had to take it.

And Dylan wouldn't have took that... Dealing wouldn't have taken that fight this age's career. And you wouldn't have blamed it. Why would you want a young, fresh guy who's fitting fast? Is the future of world boxing, arguably, possibly. We think he is. And I genuinely... genuinely think he is. I mean,

it's when you let him go. That's really interesting. The only question is when you let him go? If you look at the top 30 heavyweights, most of whom fill in the top 20 in of the four main sanctioning bodies. Because there's some differences.

So some fighters are in two top 20s and some are not in. And other fighters are in all four. Atama, believes in all four inside the top 10. So if you look at those fighters, Bell, let's say this 34 40, 50. There's 40 or 50, there might even be, yeah, there might be 50 top heavyweights in the world right now. If we have Usik at the top, coming all the way down to other guys that are fighting in Britain, David Adelaide, guys like that.

Here's the thing. Moses hasn't fought one of those guys. Not one of them. So even if you look at a whole list of fighters, sort of guys that are slightly part of the only man is man that is basically traceable or can be connected to those heavyways is, is what we had of Dillion White last year. And yet, and this is devil's advocate, and yet we're talking about him being the future of the sport. In football, in terms, he's a team that hasn't played anybody

yet in the premiership. In fact, he hasn't even played anybody in the championship, but he's having an absolute route in the first and second division. That's the football analogy. No, I know that. I know that. That was advocate. I do understand. He haven't had the test, but you can tell this for every boxer. I mean, gone

of the days where McGuigan, you know, I had the acid test fully, Pedro's for the world title. So three or four tests. Yeah, you know, I mean, those, that dude doesn't exist anymore. I mean,

who did Ricky Hatton beat a world level? He books really good European level before he boxed Costa Zoo. He beat a lot of American guys. No, good fighters. And Aymann McGee and other guys.

Yeah, he had a really good. But they hadn't proved himself in the world level. No, no, no, no. But outside the UK and Europe, they were in an order. And the thing is, because I'm playing devil's advocate here. Because I know...

Who did you beat? Until he beat you back? Mark Delaney. Stephen Wilson. They'll go good parts to mess with the message. But what I'm saying is, but you see something in, sorry Steve,

you see something in these fighters and you go, which is not the usual route. People like me have to prove it because you'll, is he good? I'm not quite sure if he's good. So let's put him in that test

to see if he's all good. But Moses wants to fight these guys. I mean, Moses isn't one of the, isn't a stupid kid in a sense he's calling out Tyson for you and Alexander Usick after two or three fights.

But he will fight anybody. And this is why we come to Germain and why Germain Franklin is an absolute. It's an absolutely brilliant piece of matchmaking. And that's the question that I said. It's when do you pull the trigger? When do you let him go? When you let him go?

You've got to let him. Frankly, it might be the one. This might be the proving. We'll talk about the Franklin, Franklin and the Franklin fight specifically in a second. But you have to let Moses Atama go at this point because the press has been so good, the momentum's been so good,

and the word of mouth has been even better, that people are really expecting this kid. You know, I'm being asked about Moses Itama. You know, not as much as I'm being asked about Usik, not as much as I'm being asked about Conner Ben, but I'm being asked about Moses Atama. I'm suddenly now being asked about Moses Atama by strangers on buses, on tubes, in taxes,

in restaurants, in pubs, in bars. You know, suddenly Moses Atama is the third or full fighter, maybe even the third fighter. So you've got to let him go now because there is attention. What you can't do is you can't have him fight someone who he looks at and the guy falls over. And that's why Jermaine Franklin, is a priceless piece of match.

And the reason why, frankly, it's important because I know, I know he boxed Dylan White, but Dylan White was not the same fighter. So people go, he was way too past his, his peak to really say

that was a genuine test for him. And sort of like, you sort of picked him off a tree when he was ready to go. But Franklin has had a couple of good wins coming off a really good win as well as last win. So since those two defeats

against Joshua and against, and against Dylan White. By the way, Dylan, my fight was a close fight. So, I'm going to hold you there because we're going to hear from Jermaine Franklin. Jermaine, thanks for your time. Jemaine, it was inevitable that they would find you. Uh-huh.

Didn't you think so? I mean, for the last year, I've been thinking, it's going to be Jermaine. It's going to be Jermain. You must have been delighted when they called you. Yeah, I honestly, I sparred with Fabio a couple times, so I kind of felt like they always was watching. I just didn't know when, you know, when it was going to come. When it's going to come?

But I felt like it was going to come here. Because you're like, we talked about this before, before the Dillion White fight, after Dillion White, before the AJ fight, I said to you, this is a compliment. You're like a heavyweight, an American heavyweight from three decades ago. You're like an 80s guy or a 70s guy. Is that fair comment? Yeah, no, that's most definitely fair.

That's my era boxes. Exactly, that's mine as well, yeah. I mean, that's just what you are. You're a guy that doesn't lose unless it's to the absolute best. They try and get you beat, but you beat their guys. And that's why we've ended up with this guy, Mo. I think they took a long time to select you. I mean, I think they, me personally,

I think they went back and watched some footage and they tried to see what they can capitalize off of. But, you know, personally, when they seen me, I wasn't in that much of greater shape, so I hope they don't expect me to be that person when it's fight time. So when you get offered a fight like this, when you get offered these fights that you're meant to lose,

you know, that's the business. They're matching you against Dillian, A.J. Ditchcock, all these fights, these are hard fights. What goes through your mind when your first offer, the fight. Is it just, yeah, I'll take it, or is it the money? Which one is it? Or is it a combination of the tour? It's a combination of everything. So like me, I actually love the sport. It's not, I mean, it's about money for all of us, but it's not 100% about money to me. Um, me, I like to have my career or like the integrity of the sport. So a lot of times when me make a decision, I try to make a decision

where we are going to get treated equally, you know, I just want to get treated fair, make the right business deals, good fights. You know, I'm not afraid to be a man. I'm not afraid to be a man. I'm and say I lost, but I just wanted to be a fair loss, you know. So that really just plays a part of my decision-making. And I really had, I had to get a lot of business in order, so now that I got in order, I can make more decisions. And with Moses, Atama, I mean, he's obviously a talent. He's 20 years of age, and he's doing what he needs to do,

but he hasn't got the rounds. He's been six rounds a couple of times in easy fights. Is he, have they taken this too early? I mean, me personally probably, yeah A personal feeling probably yes But you know As a fighter if you feel like he's ready for You feel like he's up to the challenge

So now you gotta see Because the Dillion White he thought Was not the Dillion White you thought Same guy, same passport But a different beast Dillian was trying to fight me He wasn't fighting him So yeah, I don't know

I don't know if it was from camper Or what happened in that situation Yeah Now you'll be back obviously In Manchester for the fight, you have no problem coming out in front of a, because you're a nice guy. You're not one of those pantomime baddies from wrestling, are you?

No, no. You don't throw tables and start making stupid statements, do you? No, I ain't got to do nothing. Perhaps you should start doing that, you mean? Perhaps you should start coming in wearing a face mask like Hopkins and making ridiculous comments. People be telling me that I need to spice it up so I can sell it more. It's hard.

I don't take myself too serious. I don't want to come in here trying to look mean and I bust out laughing and stuff. It's not going to work. Yeah, but... Because Moses doesn't do that either. He just gets... He can't really do that pantomime and stuff.

It's hard to. Like, I'm a trash talker, but, like, you have to talk it to me first. To get you going. Yeah, but I talk it a little bit inside the ring. Yeah. But outside the ring, you got a... You got an egg me on to get me to going.

But outside of that, I'm just a cool, calm girl. So, Jermaine Franklin is cool and relaxed outside the ring as he is inside the ring. And just to read to him, you said it just for me. He went to the interview there. His two defeats were on points. One was quite close against Dillian White,

a very much informed Dillian White, and the other one was still a competitive heavyweight fight against Anthony Joshua. That's why I think this is one of Frank Warren's boldest and arguably greatest pieces of matchmaking. And bear in mind, he's the man that delivered great fighters to fight British boxers at the exact right time. He's known, he's famous, he's infamous for that.

And I think this is. is well up there. I really do. There's never a risk-free fight for anybody. Bingo. So you have to take... But risk and danger are two different things, maybe. But at some point, if you believe your charge is going to be as good as whatever what you're telling people, if you genuinely believe it, you've got to let them go. Time means everything is bored. Not just so much how good you are, who's around at your

time, do you wait until they expire? You know, like the furies, the Joshua's, the Uyzix, they all disappear, and there's a new breed, which looks like that's happening at the minute, slowly. Do you wait for that? and then he comes into that, or do you wait longer, or you just go no? I mean, the Franklin fight, I think it's a statement of intent. Yeah.

That we're ready, we're more or less ready. Because you beat Franklin, if you beat him well. Well, yeah. And if you stop it, which is a huge ask. What's the best way for Moses Itama to end this fight on Saturday? How is it? Is it, what's the way that shows us something we maybe have not seen? Or do we not bother about that?

It's not what we haven't seen against this opposition. So, yeah, there's a guy here who, full of experience, keeps his shape really well, and so that makes he's hard to break through. So what we see for the time, it's the feet of everything. I mean, for every boxer's feet,

but for him, the angle of attack is what sets him apart. So that semi-circle round the body, run the front of the body, is the area. This is for lighter weights, but for him is applicable. It's applicable for him,

but he boxes like a lighter guy. That semi-circle around the front of the body is the area you need a master. And that's why that pivot, I always talk about, where you keep the front foot in the middle, but you move the back foot, and it gives you that almost that 180 degree movement. He does that so well.

So you punch, change the angle, punch again. And that either puts your opponent in a defensive position, or if they want to be offensive, they have to turn their body. But the millisecond they turn their body, that's an vulnerability. They squared up and you hit them. Yeah, so getting back to it,

so a brilliant points win, a conclusive one-round stoppage, a slow breakdown in five or six rounds. Which one of those three is the dream fairy tale ending for Moses atoll? I think what will really set his opponents on notice is a beat-up and a breakdown. Because if he knocks him out in one round,

power's power. He just caught with a good shot. A great shot. Well, watch out. He is dangerous. But he's caught him in that division. Anyone can go knocked out. They'll look at it like that.

but if he systematically beats him up and picks him apart and then stops him which that would be that would be son and they'll go and also oh that was vicious also he's coming off a great win Steve I've been coming off a great win

germane frankly but Ivan Ditchco which is a better win than anything anything on Moses Steve I've been beat up in the ring right you know I see it I was in tears as well yeah laughter

but honestly got right not knowing now but knowing me now you were laughing in advance. But it's the worst feeling. I mean, I've never been knocked out so I can't really say what that's like, but I mean, just to be beat up and have no answer. But imagine watching a guy,

you might have to fight, do that against maybe a good fighter. So when you could, see, Joshua's watching that, saying I couldn't do that. Dillian's where I couldn't do that. Other fighters who he's beating are going, how did he do that? Do you know, like doing that,

just bashing him up slowly and not looking like it's effortless. That would be the most chilling thing. He really would. So, Barry, let me stop you there. He's won on Saturday night. It's been unbelievable. 23,000 people have got a new hero to worship.

Where does he go now? Before you start telling me where you think he will go, Alexander Usik has already said no. He said, I'm not going to fight him. He's too young. I don't want to break this guy, which is to be discussed at a later point. Where does Moses go,

assuming he has an incredible win on Saturday night against Franklin. It's a hard win, because you think he's highly ranked. There's a world's title. There's British rivals there. You know, the Wadi or Dubai, whoever gets the winner of that? The winner of that fight? No. Who knows with Alexander Lick?

You know, will that WBC's heart become vacant? What about the cabail? There's a fight there. You think it'd be a step too far right now. There is, though. WBA regular, which is that ridiculous belt. Yeah. Well, by the way, by the way,

I was ringside for Gassia when he beat Pallev. And last December. He didn't look great. Looks beatable. But there's a great finish. Yeah. But is it worth winning the WBA regular? Well, it's worth for Dubois.

Yeah, I mean, Dubois did it for a while, as did connect in, as did Manichar and Lucas Brown. And they're also, but bear in mind, if Uzik just walks away, he gets elevated to the full world champion. Yeah. We don't have to do too much. And then it becomes a union. vacation match with other people.

And with that regular title, you can get that, I mean, as boxing fans, we don't really put much credence on it, but it'll give him a chance to develop with some sort of confidence defences and build up his profile.

And that's not going to be an important thing for him as well, not just his development as a boxer, is the profile to become a stadium seller. That's what the bottom line is, isn't it? You know what? He ends this fight with all of those fans on his side. He's the winner. And you fight Gassiaf,

back at the co-op. win a version of the world. As you said, it was good enough for Daniel Dubois, and that's where you start building it. And he's 20, and suddenly he might be, he might be 22. That makes no difference.

Staggering stuff. Murakasiev, he has big backers. He might as go to Russia for that. I mean, I don't think you'd be afraid to go either. I don't think he'd be afraid to go, but I just think you've got a chance to build this guy. This guy becomes a massive star. But imagine him against Wardy,

or him against Dubois. in a year's time, in 18 months' time, in Wembley Stadium, Tottenham Stadium, I don't know, the Millennium Stadium. 21 years of age in his British. I mean, it would just be unbelievable, isn't it? It would. Now, one man that has known him for an awful long time,

in fact, since he was a schoolboy, is his promoter, Frank Warren. You know, we got involved when he was 16, 16, 17. The school uniform? And, yeah, he's obviously, he's got older, and he's matured, but he's matured mentally, and I think that's the thing about it, is this little bit of an aura around him,

He's a progeny, isn't he? A boxing prodigy. And he seems very confident. He's got a very, very mature outlook on what he wants and what he expects from his career. And I think he really conducts himself, you know, well beyond his years. I think of all some of the young fighters,

their brash, shout, and whatever, he's none of that. He's calm, collected. And, you know, he's quite respectful. When you first sat down with him, Frank, because that was when he was 16, 17. And even though he was big, he was still a child. You know what I mean by that? He was like a child, a child in a teenager.

Were you concerned about having a kid so young in the pro business? Did you have any concerns about the age? No, I prefer that. I prefer it because we, you know, we can, you know, they're learning their trade, a profession. You know, amateur boxing, as you know, is a totally different, it's a different discipline. And for me, as much as obviously,

the ambition of any young fighter, especially a talented one, to go and represent his country and win the Olympic gold medal. And I get that, but, you know, I look at all those real great Mexican fighters and over the years and some of the Americans

when I was younger, they turned pro at very young age. And they learnt their trade and craft, and that's what, that's been still being our philosophy. You know, we did it with Ricky Hatton, Amir Khan, and And same thing with Daniel Dubois,

went on to win, all the guys went on to win world titles. Has he progressed faster than you expected? Or did you expect him after 12 fights at about 20 years of age to make the leap he's making? Was that about what you were thinking? I mean, his thing was he wanted to be the youngest ever world champion. That was the Mike Tyson meeting in May record. And I just said to him, listen,

it's nice to have that ambition and I don't want to knock you backwards on it, you know, and you want to achieve it. But, you know, I said, just take each fight as it. comes because that's the business we're in. Yeah. Yeah, it's time.

Anything can happen. Especially with youngsters. It depends how they mature and how they come through. So what I am, you know, for me, it was, as I say, it's never a, it's never a hundred meter race, it's a marathon. And it's about building a career. And he's a young guy and some of these heavy weights, as we know, fighting well into their 30s.

So he could have another 18 years. 40. You know, as if he carried on. I don't know. But the truth of the matter is that he has matured in the ring. And when I look at him and look at how he's developed and the composure that he's got in the ring, which is quite rare for somebody of that age,

you know, he's a big puncher. He's got fast hands, got good footwork, he's got great reflexes. But what I like is his composure and the timing. And he doesn't get flustered. You know, when you see him get some. somebody in trouble. You see a lot of guys, when they do that, they don't get their distance, they fall onto them, they don't get their space, their shots go.

He measures everything, and he's got a superb jab, and he works off it. And, you know, I'm really pleased where he's at, but, you know, Saturday, he's got a tough job. So Frank Warren there, talking about a kid who he genuinely believes will one day be a heavyweight superstar. I wouldn't back against it. The kid has done everything possible. If he takes care of Germain Franklin on Saturday,

that will be an enormous marker that he's put down. And as I said at the top of the show, the Americans are envious that we've got to fight. 21 years of age, Moses Hittama. Barry, it's been absolutely fantastic having you here. Just quickly in 20 or 15 words, how does it end? I think he has a few, not sticky moments, but I think he struggles to break through,

but I think it's his biggest fight of his career, and I've just got a feeling he is going to be a star. So I think we're going to see a superstar emerge. I really do. And I think this is a bold statement here. I think he stops Franklin. So if you want to listen live to Moses Atama against Jermaine Franklin, it's easy.

Live on 5 Live from 10pm. Myself, Stacey Copeland, former world champion Richie Woodall, Ronald McIntosh doing the main commentary. All be ringside with me. 23,000 people and your ears. We'll also have the full undercard on Sports Extra from 7pm.

I've been Steve Bunce, and this has most definitely been Five Live Boxing. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the Dark Web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US Special Agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.