5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Party to Blame? Dubois, Usyk & the Fallout

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Did Daniel Dubois’ defeat to Oleksandr Usyk have more to do with what happened before the fight than during it? Buncey and Barry Jones unpack the fallout from that dramatic night, including talk of a party at Dubois’ house just hours before the bout. They explore what’s next for both fighters and whether Joseph Parker deserves a shot, despite Turki Alalshikh pouring cold water on the idea. Plus, they pay tribute to former undisputed champion Josh Taylor, who announced his retirement last week.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. A British title fight in Bournemouth at the weekend, but no massive fights this week. And that means we've got to call him late, but get the man in and get the shopping list sorted. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing. So it's that time of the week when we get together. Now, often, we can be somewhere very exotic. The TikTok diner.

Terrible food, a cool place at 3am in the morning. Or we can be somewhere in Saudi Arabia, or we could be somewhere in Las Vegas, or we could be somewhere exotic up in Salford. No, we're in our regular. It's about a fifth or six time this year. D. Martinez, great Portland Street. And with Barry Jones to look back on the weekend,

but also what we call a shopping list, where we go through half a dozen topics. When we feel like we've done enough, we'll call it a day. Barry, first of all, I didn't make it down to Bournemouth at the weekend, and I'm really annoyed because I've seen most of Ryan Garner's fights and probably about

15 of Reese Belotti's fights. British Super Featherweight title finished in the 12th round. Bellotti was the loser. Garner was the winner. You were there working for this own and we know that venue. It can be an unbelievable venue.

We've been there for Chris Bill and Smith. What was it like? Yeah, it was that. The atmosphere was fantastic. It really was. From early on as well, which is always good to see. Taylor Bevin box on the undercard,

the Welsh kid who's based in Tomden. Yeah. Oh, he is on that. 400, Brian Peters, his man told me. He was born, basically, bomber, didn't he? Brian Peters, because he's brother placed a ball. Yeah, but he always... 400 tickets, Bell.

He sells tickets, and he takes a crowd with him, so they were there early, they were cheered in. But, I mean, Ryan Ganna sold out. And also, he boxed out of his skin, I thought. I think, by far, his best performance, because... Is it, like, Paddy just sucks me with... That's a tripod... When Tripod Met Water, which is one of the worst horror films out there. But Ryan Ganner, he...

was fantastic. I thought it was a stand-up performance. Reese Pilate makes you fight. I mean, that's one thing. That's what we knew. That's what we knew was going to be a hard fight. And also, full of experience as well. Because, you know, he's boxed at every level with failure and victory. He's always, you know, he always gives 110%. It's chaos.

And it's called absolute chaos. He's called his absolute mayhem. The shot selection, and I kept saying it all fight, the balance of Ryan Garner was just, sublime. I mean, when you have good balance, it means you can throw from any angle, whether you're going forward or in retreat, whether you're under pressure, whether someone's throwing punches back, because you're always in a position to throw with authority, which means you're not afraid to throw, even if you're not afraid to throw, even if you're not afraid of a throw, because your balance is so good, you can come back with another shot

and beat yourself right online again, and he did that all night. Now, it was a good performance if it was going to run the distance, but to get the stoppage in the end, against someone like Bolotti, who was also super fit and super tough. was a real statement. And it was good for Garner because Garner, when he turned professional and we were working on

BT before it was TNT at that time. And there was a lot of pressure. There was a lot of praise being heaped on him. We talked about him being special. And then we know he lost his way. He lost his way for a good few years.

He nicked to win. He remained unbeaten. I think he was 17 and 0 going in last night or 18 and 0. But there was all the stories about how he was lost his way. And I think he faced his demons, fought his demons,

beat his demons, demons and now we're in a situation where we can crack on. There's loads of great domestic fights, one or two good international fights. Not domestic fights, that's a European title now. So people already talking about world titles. I think that division is still quite hot. Yeah, it's a bit tasty.

So I would just say, I have a couple of fights at this level now. They're not about St Mary straightway in. So let's go back to South Hand and then go to St Mary's, let's fill that out. That's got to be the summer. So that allows you, though, a couple of defenses to this European title, or added with that British title, the Commonwealth title that he's picked up,

which means you can get a different. Domestic defence, also a foreign defence for a different style, different field. And then just you know you're ready then. And I think, and it will be an opportunity for the box for title. Jasit Dickens just picked up the WB interim title, of course. That's a really good fight. Sugar Nunes just won the IBF title recently. So it's fights there and they're all hard fights.

So the more experience you can garnish at the level just before that level will help you become a better fighter. And I think he's primed and ready for that. Now, Bo, I haven't sat with you since we were, at Wembley, whatever it was 10 days ago, 100,000, 997, 000, who cares, it was a massive crowd, a massive crowd. I keep hearing people tell me there was only

a few thousand there, and I just think you must know, you'd be in delusional. The fight itself, we discussed, we talked about it, you know, that's not a problem, and that's all been done and dusted. I'm intrigued by the fallout and the stuff that's emerged since, stuff that's emerged, the films that have emerged,

the stories that have emerged, and then some of the statements and comments that have I'm not sure where to take it. Let's deal with the big thing was this alleged, or not alleged, there was a gathering, not a party, a gathering at Daniel's house on the day of the fight, which Daniel went to. Allegedly there was the same thing before the Joshua fight last year. Now, I saw lots of film of him at that party, and I recognised half a dozen people there. The first thing that struck me was how happy he looked being surrounded by so many friends. Now, before we talk about what you might do, what was your reaction when you saw the club?

lips and read the stories. Ridiculous. I didn't know about the one before the Joshua fight, but that's ridiculous. That's been claimed. But even if it worked, it's still a stupid, stupid thing to do. I mean, whether you need people patting you on the back in G&U, whether you need cheerleaders, calling you, even then it's a bad thing. Because all these build up to a fight, the closer to get,

especially when you're supposed to leave the arena, anything from there on in, you're getting dialed in for the fight. So you have to get zoned in. And Daniel doesn't seem like an extravert. So I can imagine being around lots of people was probably not super comfortable for him. But he did look super comfortable. That would be my counter to that.

I'm going on his visuals, smiling and smiling. This is by far the hardest fight of his career. Absolutely. No, whether this is the biggest, it's irrelevant because Joshua was a huge knight for him. This is the biggest, the hardest fight of his career by a million miles. Up against a guy, he knew he couldn't touch in the last fight.

And when you know you're up against that, so don't, to get your mind, mental, mentally ready for that. Especially when you're an aggressive fighter, needs to be aggressive. I mean, you don't want to be laughing and joking. You don't, I mean, you,

I mean, okay, I'm on your side. A happy fight is a dangerous fighter. Someone just said that. It sounded really sexy. And then you just stuck with it. I mean, a happy fight, I mean, by a happy fighter being a dangerous fight, they mean a fighter who's winning,

whose things are working for him. Not a guy who's telling jokes. Yeah, yeah. You know, having people like, you know, having circus acts around him. It just, I've said, it's about just quickly, Johnson Palmer's then.

Yeah, I love some. Thanks, me. Yeah, carry on. Thank you. What a man. Thanks. Beautiful. So, go on, Bell.

But I still think it's a really, really stupid idea. I don't think it would have had a massive relevance on the fight because, no, we all thought Uzik was going to win anyway. Yeah. But Uzik was, I would say that, Uzik started faster. Actually, Daniel started fast and he started aggressive, and he landed in two good shots, but Uzik started even faster again.

I say, but I won't go into the fight, but we say about rematches and who, learns the most. Uzik knew his rhythm, the angle he was going to throw the punch, how he throws the punch, the expressions and the noises he made when he's tired,

when he's uncomfortable, when he's confident. Every single re. He remembered everything. Every single tell. And he made it an easier fight. I mean, that's applying a bit of the old,

I mean, I don't want to be stereotypical here. That's applying a bit of the old Eastern Bloc science, if you don't mind me saying so. Where they analyze every single element of the opponent. Well, that's great to analyze them, but you've got to be, like, I say it all the time. You got to be out of the thing on your feet, and you've got to be the thing, you'll be thinking yourself.

People tell you, tell you, tell you, but when the bell rings, if you can't think for yourself, all that stuff helps, but, I mean, it's almost unused, unused information. Yeah. I called Uzix on another, another bit of work, it's somewhere else. I called him a petrol thief. I said, he's like a petrol thief because he siphons your soul and your energy, you'll give you, every second in that ring, there's movement and the punches he threw. rules he's just taking a bit of you a bit of you yeah you got you got you got like a jerry can

and a tube and he's just sucking that soul old to you and that confidence out to you before you know it you're dead in the water and then he just switches switches and stops you i'm not sure what's going on here barry's talking about ucic siphoning fighters souls you got to love it is there any version of events in your head that having i know you've said it there is and i just want it clear is there any version of events in your head we're having an event like that on a they have a fight like that is in any way beneficial. No. Anyway.

Early in your career, when you're selling tickets, you're collecting money on the day of your fights. And it's so stressful because you're having to drive around, speak to people, stop to speak to people the longer than you want to. And all it steals your time to prepare for the fight. So that's a hard thing to do. But it's a necessity to build up a fan base. But when you start boxing for titles, certainly world titles,

all that stops. Someone does it for you or you don't do it anymore. So like time on your own is important because even if you're not superstitious you sort of still add anyway You've got people around you in your room You can do a PlayStation, you can play cards You can tell stories, you can watch television

Or whatever If you're a world-class athlete, no You don't have a diary And you don't have a diary What are you doing? You should be documenting Every day of your life And the reason for that is

When you have a stellar performance Or a flat performance You can go back For the good and the bad. Whether it's food, didn't feel very well, in a bad mood, you had a road with somebody. What time you get up in the morning?

Whatever. Kids got on your nerves. When you sit on the toilet? Whatever it is, everything. And then in the end, then you can sort of replicate that right feeling, that right procedure.

Again. To get to your optimum for the biggest fight of your life. What it doesn't entail is having a big massive gallery around your house and everyone's cheating for you. I mean,

that's a... Of course, what we don't know about, and this is a bit of devil was advocacy. What we don't know is that that might have been a gathering, you know, they got together at one, they left at three, and all we saw is Daniel. It doesn't matter. No, no, no, listen, he might have just walked through it. As I said earlier, he was smiling. He was looking, because. It was all week. We said, we were in here doing pods. We were on buses doing pods. We were on Wembley doing pods. We're all over the place doing pods.

And I said from the Monday, when I was on the bus with Darren Barker, launching the week on the double-decker bus going down on the street, I said then he doesn't look content, it doesn't look happy. In fact, the happiest I saw him all week were in those short clips of him walking through this controversial gathering. Yeah, it's not good for you. I mean, I actually don't think it affected him and it probably didn't. It affected the fight, certainly. No, or him, I think of the other positive stat. But don't do it. There's no need to do it. I mean, why would you even take the risk of it upset in your rhythm? Okay. It's just, there's no need for it. I mean, you're in a professional sport where it were anything,

the smallest things make the biggest difference. So just do everything right. That's all I would say. I mean, you know, they got people on to know what they're doing, by the way. As much as Don Charles has been backing him because he's that sort of bloke. He's got back in fire.

No way could he be being happy with that. He couldn't. At some point, somebody's got to take control of, I say this all the time. Like, it used to be your trainer. It might be different people of now, but it used to be when you were boxing back in my day,

your trainer was God in your life. Coming up to a fight, he was God. What he said, when? Yeah. Right. or wrong, what he said went. So go to bed early, you've got to

get up at my 5 o'clock. This, this, that. Don't eat this, don't eat that. Get down to me, pick me up for the way in or whatever it is. Whatever you have to do, you would do it. I'd like to go to the arena really early. They go, no. Too early. I want to go to there 2 o'clock. I go, no, we're going to get there 6 o'clock, we're not box until 8.

You know what I mean? And I go, no, I want to be prepared. And he'd compromise, but it'd be on his saying. And that's just all it is. Someone has take control of your life for you, but you have your own rhythm, your own pattern. Here's another thing. Daniel lives out in Essex, way out in Essex. We're the best wood in the world.

Two and three o'clock in the afternoon, four o'clock in the afternoon. That's a long slap to Wembley. I'm wondering, I'm wondering, if you don't find yourself a house for a week, because a lot of the functions are at Wembley, a really nice house, a really nice house. You don't have to be a hotel in Central London. A really nice house, maybe just 15 minutes slightly north of Wembley, going out a little bit towards the M-25,

base yourself there so you've got a short commute and easy commute because you're at Wembley what? I think we were at Wembley three times out of five days yeah three times or four times out of five four times out of five Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday Friday and the day of the fire no disrespect about if he's commuting from his house if he was commuting from his house then he's put in four hours a day he's put in nearly 20 hours of traveling that week

yeah and certainly the day of the fight last thing you want to be sat in the car for two hours I mean like first of I was gonna when you were first going to when you were first posting the question I thought sometimes you want to be at home

home comfort especially with Daniel who obviously clearly needs his dad around him then that's always not a bad thing staying in a hotel can be a little bit more over-isolated but you're right they have the money and the means to rent a nice big house

but they can all live in there and they can all space around there which is only 30, 40 minutes from the venue I mean that would make total sense and I mean there's no reason what that wouldn't have happen. I mean, he's got enough people. All I know is when he walks into a room now

there's enough people around him. He had a big room, son. But there was a guy talking on the stage at one point, sticking up for him. I don't know what he does for him. He's a sticker wrapper. He's a sticker wrapper. He's a He's a, he's a crocodile. He's Steve Fitch of the Daniel Dubois business. I was imagining. He has

an integral part of involved in his career, like maybe the manager is money I know. But he, you do it. You find a house. You get him somewhere like that. I mean, and Daniel it's a weird thing. I think it's weird because you're almost like, it's the most selfish sport in the world.

And we criticize people for being selfish. Like, you know, when they sack trainers, get rid of the managers, no longer speak to their friends. And I wasn't like that. But I think you have to be a bit like that to be really successful. I mean, it's nice if you can, but I mean,

ultimately, you have to be selfish. Whether it's in the ring or outside of the ring, because it's your money, it's your life. And I say your life, it's your life that you can lose. So I think you have to be solely about you. And those people around you, you treat them like employees, not friends. Well, there will be, there will be continuing an ongoing stewards inquiry going forward. Now, from the fallout, Barry, lots of people have said lots of things.

And you and I talked about this a bit on radio on about the Wednesday, on what people can say about a boxer when he or she decides that he or she's had enough in that particular fight. And you and I disagreed on it slightly. I don't know. That was on there on five, that's neither here,

not there. But let's say, I want to look at some of the things that have been said since then. There were some very strong opinions. We said that was prior to the fight, mine. Of course, of course we said it prior to the fight.

We were ahead of the game. On fight, no, we could have been in a bar. We could have been having a she-shed. There was another scenario in the fight where the word you're going to mention could have been brought up. So basically, I'm going to do with a couple of people. First of all, Joseph Parker,

who's the WBO's interim heavyweight champion, is the number one deck, therefore, contender. And the WBO, as I found out on the night, are the first of the four sanctioning bodies to get their man in an undisputed fight with Alexander Usik, asterisk, asterisk attached, assuming he doesn't get stripped of the title.

There's 100 or so days, or 30 days, There's 30 days from this weekend for Alexander Ussick's people to negotiate with Joseph Parker's people. Joseph Parker, in the 24 hours after the fight, he believed and said that Daniel swallowed it. Derek Delboy Chisora called Daniel a quitter. Frank Warren replied to that. Derek said Daniel is a quitter. If he thinks he's a quitter, he can fight him. It's a great fight.

And in many ways, it's a fun fight. So where are we with the quitting? Where are we with the swallow it? And where are we with my point, my view is that the first knockdown caught him a bit by surprise and he definitely took a voluntary knee. First knock down. There's no choice about it. Second knockdown, I don't think he did take a voluntary knee.

No, I don't say that. He went down ugly and it was a heavy shot. And he kind of did beat the cow, but didn't beat the count. but I don't think he stayed down intentionally to miss the count. That's my gut feeling. I had no problem with the stoppage. Yeah, absolutely. I got to say that.

And I first crowns attacking the stoppage was perfect. But, I mean, and the first knockdown, he did the right thing by looking for the fault. Absolutely. Because he gave him some time. With two shots. And it gave him some time. And he didn't know where he was.

He took a knee, and that's fine. And then got back up. I mean, we talked about the previous fights where he took a knee to reassess. and decided not to get up. That's what I think. In the first two defeats he had with Joyce Singh and he was like the first time.

This time, he reassessed and got up. That's fine. That's good. And then got caught with a beautiful shot that hurt him, didn't know where he was. But he did get to his knee. I think there was a place where he could have got up. Maybe, it's hard to say it, because he looked a little bit confused as well,

which might be another factor that. I think he takes a really good shot, by the way. Yeah, I do too. I think it's the whole thing with him. is to panic when he gets hurt or tired. And I think that's how... Tired's the key. He was blowing at the end of the fall.

And I think that manifested itself again when he took the knee. I think he was a bit confused, a bit lost. I had no problem with it. But I can understand where they're saying it. I have to be honest, I can understand why they're saying that because he did get in the position to get up. And I think the referee would have stopped it anyway. But he didn't

get up. I don't call him a quitter on this occasion. I don't think he quit on this occasion. I never call him a quitter. I don't think he quit. I do think he quit. I do think he quit. I do think he he generally was not quite sure where he was. But I can see their point of view. That he still took that knee,

decided not to get up. Because there's a reference before. He's done it twice before. So he's just going to say, like a lot of boxes say, once you do it once, you're going to do it again. Which is the standard line

for lots of other fighters that have been critical. I give him a pass on this one. I'm giving him a pass as well. And fighters I know are friends disagree with me. I mean, Joseph Parker, you would disagree with me. And Derek Dill-Wodgesor would disagree with me. Let's throw it forward now. Parker's the one.

It's, you know, the WBC, the WBA and the IBF all know that they're not the ones who get the chance now. It's the WBI. Check that at Ringstein with Gustavo, the new boss of the WBO. It turns out it's absolutely true. Parker obviously wants to fight. However, however, there was a sort of shock announcement after it on about Wednesday of last week, so four or five days ago. It came out for on the Ring magazine's feed, Twitter feed, which of course is direct linked to Turkey Alishake. There's no problem who owns the Ring magazine.

Listen, you can own what you like. And the message was Read season and Sela, they're the sort of promotional group that put fights on globally, but especially in Saudi Arabia, are not interested in making a fight between Alexander Usik and Joseph Parker. Well, the first thing that struck me is that they're not making the fight. The WBO are insisting on the fight. Then it's down to promoters globally to make the fight. In theory, a promoter from Fiji, could put. the fight and if he could find $100 million because the WBO of all it, 30 days.

I'm not sure that was a I'm not sure that was a particularly wise statement because it could be taken that that's a particularly arrogant comment. I would say, like, they've said that because mostly, mainly in the last eight months,

all big fights go through them. So they're, so, and that's their prerogative. They want to pay the money for that fight. Yeah, don't pay the money. Someone else might find the money for it. Yeah. I mean, it's a struggle to find them any for it, but someone might. I would say this, that as much as we've had an unbelievable time

with some great fights down to the Saudi investment, and we have. And I've said it before, fantasy has become reality. Full on game change. It's been unbelievable. But we still have to have a system in place. If you've ruined your right to get the shot, whether you're a marketable fighter or not, whether you're an exciting fight or not, whether you're an exciting fight or not, whether you've done that.

Joe has done that. I think Joe is an exciting fight by that. I think that's a really good fight to watch, it might be a bit scrappy, but I think it's a good fight to watch. But if you've earned your right for the shot, you should get it. Otherwise, are we going back to like the 50s

where a fight from certain regions of the world would never get a target shot because they couldn't sell. I mean, it's also a business where you have to sell tickets. Which is exactly why the governing bodies were created in the early 60s. The WBC especially... So it wasn't a monopoly?

had massive flavor from Japan and Thailand because Japanese and Thai fighters, people from the far and mid-east, were not getting shots. That's why the WBC was formed. The Mexicans also involved, didn't think they were getting shots. So the sanctioning bodies came around

to try and spread the love around. By the way, that's the biggest defense I'm ever going to make of the sanctioning bodies. Let me tell you there. But we just have to be aware that even though we want to see the biggest fights, of course we all do. to see the most favorable fights for the fans as well. We want to see that.

But still, some fighters deserve their shot if they've earned their right to beat people. And Josie Parker, I'm doubt to the answer. Are there ending the headwashed on the planet right now? He deserves his shot at that unified world tile. But I don't think he wins it. Just like Daniel deserved his chance when he was given the interim belt, it was ridiculous. And when he beat AJ.

So let's go, Daniel will come through two hard fights. But if you're a promoter or promoting fights and you're thinking, that's not a fight I want to make. it's your priority to say it. You can say it. It's up to you. You don't have to promote it. But someone else will.

Or someone else won't. I don't know. I mean, someone else will. Okay. So, but the WBO should have got to do their due to-dunners and order that fight. Yeah. Or,

and then whatever happens then happens, I think. So if the WBO insist on that and if Ussick's people say, sorry, it doesn't, it doesn't float our boat. We don't want that fight. And then Ussick gets stripped of that, like he got stripped of the IBF last year. I mean, it could happen. That's boxing. at Limitia, say, pre-Saudi, it's definitely happened.

If you remember, the great story back in whenever it was 2016 or whatever, Tyson Fury gets stripped of the IBF belt at breakfast the next morning. At breakfast the next morning, which is quite ridiculous. Anyway, neither here nor there. Let's assume that Ussick gets permission somehow, or at least keeps one of the belts. I mean, to Josh Taylor, we lost three belts outside the ring. So let's assume he keeps one of them. Who does Usoc fight now?

Where does Usik fight and who walks out in the other corner? And when? I think, no. And Usik's at the point now, but he can just pick who he wants. And he deserves it. Again, I go about the system of fights, but he deserves it. Whether he deserves to keep the belts is another thing. But he'll be the lineal champion so he gets beat.

And the ring magazine champion so he gets beat. That belt staged him until someone beats him. And maybe that's the belt that carries more credence now. I'm not quite sure. Maybe it does. So who's out there? I think, and I don't think it's the, it's the, the, best fight or the most deserving fight, but I think

if it goes on before the end of this year, it'll be in the UK and it be Chazora, I think, because all he wants now do is if you can't play me... So that's assuming he gets stripped to the WBO then because he's always the idea. He won't care about that. He's done it twice. Yeah, cool. Okay, that's fun. So, like,

he's one the most... He'll one the most profitable fights for him. And if it doesn't, if he doesn't box until 2026, I think it'd be Fury again. I mean, these are not fights. I would pick other fights over these. I think they're the other. I think they're the fights out of a hot. Barry, I still can't work out whether Fury coming back against Usik is really genuine

or just an idea that Spencer Brown, an influential promoter and partner of Turkey Alashake who works very closely with Frank Warren and Frank Warren and Turkey Alishake are pushing. And Fury's pushing. I mean, I'm still not absolutely sure that isn't just Fury. Having a little feel for the water. You think it's genuine? I do, yeah. Okay.

I mean, he can wake up tomorrow and change his mind, and he's not enough money to do that, haven't he? But I mean, but there's a lot of money on the table there. Listen, there would be a lot of money on the table there. I mean, especially if we just go with a narrative which will grow that he got jobbed in the two fights against Ducing. That never happens. Barry Lizzie, we've taken on board more garbage than that

and run with it as the truth in the past. But he never got schooled either, by the way. Do you know what I mean? So he was in the fights and they were close fights? I'll go with that, not with a former. What about AJ? You know, AJ's out there. He's living a great life.

He's made loads of money. He's a household name. People love him. He kisses his babies on their heads. People talk about him in the job. You know, he's still one of the most famous sports, men and women in the world, right now, in boxing. The reason why I think, I mean, it's a sellout,

but I mean, for a boxing fact, I'd want to be harder to sell than the Chazora fight, which sounds mad in itself. It's because even though Chazora's got no chance to be in Uywick, they can sell the narrative game music is hard as far as a heavyweight. He never, but that's what they can say. But also, what we know with Derek is,

though a lot of it, we all, most of the thing you shouldn't be fighting, but what we know with Derek, but he is, so we have to talk about that. Is that he will push it and push it and push it. He fights with a tartly sleeve. He knows nothing but go forward. So that's why that fight is probably been more appealing

than the Joshua fight. Because Joshua might get lost again, possibly, after two or three rounds, more so than he did in the first fight and the second fight he was better, but still he's not the same fight to know. So for me, for Joshua, who's arguably the most master,

fighting on the planet still, he still needs a fight to show that he's world class. I mean, I never thought he'd ever say that, but I think he does need to show that. You know what I'd be a, truly amazing. I'm just looking at things. Joe Joyce gets a quick win back, and suddenly it's Parker and Joe Joyce.

Joe Joyce has a big fight. Joe Joyce ends up being asked to do what Daniel Dubois and Joseph Parker are asked to do. Win a couple of fights against the odds, and suddenly he wins them, and then suddenly it's a revenge fight for Parker, can we get this heavyweight business Parker and Joshua is a good fight

especially for Parker to get revenge because he would go in the favour this time let me let me tell you this so basically Barry with you being acknowledged as the number one boxing TV pundit globally I mean even in Japan they talk about your son you're big in Japan son

and that's a double-sided compliment I do a Japanese show tomorrow we're doing it in English or Japanese we're doing you I can't speak either of those now So let me explain. So we've sat here now talking about who goes next and who fits in. And you and I have thrown out about 17 names.

We haven't made one fight because you know what? In this business, at the moment, you can't rule out anything and you can't rule in anything. It's a spectacular amount of chaos. And it's great chaos. I mean, I absolutely love it. What we will get, though, is we will get three or four big heavyweight fights before Christmas. And I'm not talking about Moses Itama against Dillian White. I'm talking about what I think we'll get three or four really competitive fights for.

Now, whether that's for someone the splintered belts, that's just the reality. Don't get sport. We've only had a little bit of him. I mean, I think it's too early for him. So do what? He might just go, they might just let the reins off him. And he might get the opportunity against one of those. It might be him and Parker for that.

He's number one in the WBO, I think, isn't he? But it might be him and Parker. But would Moses Atama? In Wembley, in November. No, no, forget that. You're going straight to the commercial aspect. Look at Moser Thomas' record. What's the highest ranked man is full, if you look at the box wreck records?

Is the guy in the top 200? I know, I know. I know. I don't say it. So, but so we'd be, so we, Ousick and Parker wouldn't be big enough for one of the biggest promoters in the world, i.e. the Saudi Arabian of boxing group. Yeah, but they're not, they haven't said it's not big enough for him. And we're just presuming that.

They're saying they, for whatever reason, it might be a personal grief. I don't know. They're saying they don't want it. But he said he wants to tam- Oh, Parker. He's setting a place a light over there. This is not my...

I'm not... Anyway. I mean, Parker deserves his shot next. Okay. Every boxing fan, university, he thinks Parker should be next because he's earned the right. I mean, who else has he got to beat?

I mean, he beat John DeWilder Wilder, when everyone was still avoiding him wild. They're like the plague still. I'd say the craziest thing, okay? Zhang? We've just talked for 15 or 20 minutes or maybe longer about heavyweight boxing, okay, and it's 2025. I don't even like heavyweight. And name me one thing we didn't do. Paddy, what haven't we done? I'll ask Paddy first. See if you can guess it. Have a guess, Paddy. It's just shaking his head. Go and knock a bottle over somewhere else. Barry, what haven't we done?

In all this conversation, what haven't we mentioned this? One thing we've not mentioned. We've mentioned 20 heavyweights. We've mentioned 15 fights. We've mentioned all sorts of things. Why haven't we mentioned? No, you've got me. An American heavyweight. American heavyweights? There aren't any.

Can you imagine a conversation in any year? Going back to 1875 where we're not including an American heavyweight in a conversation. Well, there's Richard Torres. No, no, I'm a massive Richard Torres. We can't go down. That's a rabbit hole. Richard Torres, by the way.

He is a terrific heavyweight. I want to ask you, I'm not sure where. to go with, not sure we're going to go here. Today it was announced that Lewis Crocker will fight Paddy Donovan for the vacant IBM IABF World Awake title in Belfast on September the 13th. It was officially announced of that. They fought back in March, ended at the end of the eighth round with a referee decided it was an illegal blow thrown after the bell by Donovan, which left Crocker on the floor.

Crocker said he heard the bell and dropped his hands before a second before. Donovan said he was in full flow, didn't he? didn't mean it. The IBF, that was an IBF Eliminator, the IBF decided to uphold it. It didn't change the decision though. And we're going to talk about a fight

that was changed. It didn't change the decision. They upheld it. Order the rematch. The rematch is going to, it was announced in Belfast for September the 13th. Crocker and Donovan.

Massifference and a world title at stake. It's a good one, but it's a fun one. It's a huge fight. It's a massive fight. And I would see this is the best chance Donovan's ever going to get to win at World's Hale. Yeah.

I mean, he's good enough. Yeah, yeah. But he was so dominant in the first fight against Crocker. And he did hit him after the bell. And it was, the crowd was really loud. And Crocker might, I think all those things might be true. Crocker did drop his hands. I think he wasn't full, I think he wasn't full flow.

He didn't do on purpose. I think so. But when you slow it down, it looks like he did do it on purpose. But I think he was just, he was just in his rhythm. I mean, Crocker's going to show us something different. Otherwise, he's going to be the same one-sided fight. but Crocker can well Crocker's not a huge puncher

but he's heavy-handed you know what I mean by that? Yeah, he lacks a bit of injection of pace into a shot and really like no ice you out, cold but if he works on that turning a bit more of the handle to get a bit of more torque or speed

or both into the shot then he's a bigger danger but he's got to somehow make that 18 foot, 22 foot ring whatever's going to be he's got to make that ring into pretty much a two, three-foot triangle. When I say triangle, you've got to get him in the corner,

don't let him out. And then when you get, because you get Pallied Donovan on the ropes, you've got two exits he can use there, potentially, and he'll get off it. If you get him in the corner, you trap him in the corner, and you've got to make you feel pain,

and you've got to make you feel pain, and you've got to make it do it early. So he's got to take that risk to get knocked out, I think, otherwise, it's a one-sided fight. But it'll be a fun fight, it'll be packed out. Yeah. It'd be some night, well? And I look at my diary, and I'm busy, actually,

to be fair and that's with them I got an asterix too I can't wait to get there

I'm going on ideally I mean just Belfast Belfast and boxing I mean literally

it should be called Belfast boxing we love it there don't we yeah another fight that the

decision was changed and it's not as much fun was the recent Galaliafai Francisco Uderigez fight we said

on the night on the part and afterwards let's wait for the drug test results which is quite brutal

quite a brutal. I didn't know that. Sunnih was on commentary. Saddening in commentary pretty much, didn't he? Certainly. You know what? We might have said it also in Comps because it wasn't going to.

Frances Rodriguez has failed a test for a drug called Heptomino, which is classified as a cardiac stimulant. It increases the coronary blood flow. So basically it just allows you to burst and burst. He beat Galau over 12 rounds, dropped him in the last round,

and it was horrible. I was with Robert McCracken just last week up at the GB. because they announced their 16 boxes for the inaugural world boxing world championships in Liverpool in early September. And Rob was saying to me last week that they wanted a couple of things. They wanted the decision declared a no contest, so it wasn't a points loss for Galau, so he remains unbeaten. And they also wanted Galau reinstated as the interim WBC Flyweight chairman. I thought that was no chance of the second.

WBC have agreed to both, but they also ordered. They haven't, they've given it. They put Francisco Rodriguez. I think on a 12-month probation, which is a weird one, but they have also ordered a rematch between the two. So in theory, well, not in theory, we will see a, and I'm going to use this word,

and it's not a word I use likely, we will see a non-duced, and you get away with that, it's no problem, Francisco Rodriguez against Galalafi. Now, I don't think that saves and solves the big part. Maybe it's good for Yafai if he gets victory. If we care of what we say here, though,

Steve, about before we go, Before we start condemning Roger you guys is that we got to treat every guy

who fails a drug test with the same energy I mean not just on the pot I mean

in boxing so we can't go crazy on him until we know the ins and outs of what what drug oh no

all the drug got there yeah okay but I don't my understanding is because if he said

that oh yeah I did it I did it I know I'm sorry I the fact the WBC have passed the three rules. Rematch. No, it's in his system.

That's enough, isn't it? So the fact that the WBC are ruling on it suggests they're not still investigating it. He's guilty for taking it. But otherwise it's been good to take it and then said but I didn't know I was taking it. No, no. Well, listen,

the fact that it's been released, the fact that the three things are in place tell me that this is a, oh, this is closed. It's the right decision. I love it. I applaud it. I think, you know, the only problem I got, though, is that, again, with all the thing with drugs, is that the...

Is that a friend of yours outside, Bell? Yeah, yeah. You can't take back the damage that Yafai took in that fight. So he might not be the same fight that again. I'm hoping that he is... And it was a fight, wasn't it? It was a hard fight.

I always thought it was a hard fight. I always thought it was... Not about the power of his opponent the fact that the guy who could take a good shot and fight at a high pace. But fight at a high pace, he's got a big question back over that now

because fight the high pace because of he's taking something that makes him. Now, I had a problem with this fight from, I love the fight until I had a little look deeper. And you remember we talked about it on the night and we talked about it afterwards and we kind of pushed it under the carpet maybe we shouldn't have pushed it under the carpet.

In fact, we definitely shouldn't have pushed it under the carpet. And this is the fact that Rodriguez had fought in December. And in that particular contest, he had won over eight rounds against the Journeyman somewhere in Mexico. that contest had been changed from him winning on points to a no contest. The fight was on that was in December. It was changed on the 6th of January.

So about two weeks afterwards. Now, I'm not saying I did. I didn't reach out to the Texas Commission, but I know two people that did. And they were, they were given no reason. Now, I'm assuming, we'll be really careful what we say here,

because we work closely with the board. That was on his record. I wonder if the border control asked the Texas Commission as to why that last fight had been changed from a points win for Rodriguez to a no contest. I wonder, because it remains unspecified. I think we won't do any more speculating,

and that might require a glance from a lead from. It's good for the yeah, fight, because he gets the chance to... And he's still the WBO into championship. Yeah, he gets a chance to hopefully become a world champion because you know he had a stellar amateur career Olympic gold meddhist. I've never got enough credit for that in my opinion. And he's been a fantastic pro.

I mean, again, because Sunni-Ebb was retired after that fight, he said this is how it wasn't in it. He didn't get the... Took a little bit away. But let's be honest, that one beat that... There was a one-sided beating by Yaffai against Sunni-Ebbis at night. Does not forget that. No.

Brilliant. I seem to have said about two hours ago when this restaurant was full, it's now empty. It's getting dark almost. I seem to say that this is going to be a shopping list. this week. I want to name three people to you, Barry, and I want to watch the smile on your face. I know, because I know it's going to come up. Matthew Sard Mohammed, Edgar Mustafa Muhammad, Eddie, Mr. Muhammad, and Dwight Mawahey, and Dwight Mowry.

Dwight Quarry just recently died a couple of days ago, former light heavyweight world champion, former cruise weight world champion, but more than that, belonging to a period mid-seventies to mid-80s. We're never about 15 Americans, and I include Evander Holyfield at the edge of that, 15 Americans that were in a series of fights, that if you watch them on whatever channel you use to watch fights back, go and have a look at the split decision that Quarry lost to Evander Holyfield for the world title.

Go and have a look at any of Eddie, Matthew Sae Mohammed's fights, any of Eddie Mustafa Mohammed's fights, you will be shocked and amazed that if you've never delved into those guys and that period. That's 75 to 85. That was a goal.

We talked about no Americans being mentioned on the show. show, you couldn't, if you were talking about light heavies and heavies in that 10-year period, you could only talk about Americans. Stunning, didn't he? And there was so good about him, is that, what did you say, a box? In a 25 or something? When he came out of prison.

He started the box of 25, came out of prison, turned pro at 20, whatever, 27. Did he turn Muslim in prison or was that? No, no. He turned. Yeah, because he had the boxed the all title is Braxton, didn't he? Yeah, then he turned, then he changed. I think he was Matt to say, Sam, Mohammed. Two fights of him.

But he, what I loved about him because he's a short fighter, so I'm always a fan of that. 5-7? Yeah, for a light, heavy or cruise rates. Fort George Foreman. He's a madness, isn't it? But I say, I love it.

I say it all the time in comedy about when you're the short fighter, you can't get low enough. And the term we don't use anymore in boxing commentary is Bob and Weave. And he did that better than anybody. We all say, say, move the head off the line now. Can we get Bob and Weave back?

I think so because the new thing that was pretty head off the line so that makes a sharp movement but he I'm Steve Bunsen

this is the bobb and weave podcast oh it's probably is a bobbby podcast somebody no it's great

it's great name there's probably there's probably 10 check hook podcasts yeah yeah

anyway carry on sorry though if I have my own podcast it's going to be called the pivot yeah in fact you are

or the privet or the privet in a garden show but imagine if you did two shows one the pivot one the pivot

and the privet and the privy And what about if they met? No, you want... So this is a call to any... Any boxers or managers or promoters out there. Are you a fighter? Does your fighter love gardening?

Just contact me, it's easy. Gardening time, Steve Bunce. Carry on, Bell. But the Bob and a weave he used to do, because he was short. He got lower, which made it very difficult for these taller fighters, especially people like Sayy Mohammed,

who would like to throw a long right hand. Yeah. They would throw it. He would continue. It's nice and low. Turn that shoulder in. He had a little bit of a phrase of him. He had the right level over his left,

cheek. Fraser was one of the big comparisons, obviously. But he constantly moved his head up to left and right, kept his shoulders nice and low, and he was impossible to hit. And he jumped in and burst in combination, Steve. He was an absolute joy to watch. Technically, very, very good for a little guy

who didn't start boxing to be 25. Unbelievable. He beat what was left of Leon Spinks. He lost to a really good Michael Spinks. George Foreman's in there. The fabulously named that he was also a really good fighter, Tyrone Booz. Everyone writes off Tyrone Boos.

Everett Bigfoot MacLean, Nate Miller, Ricky Parky, whose stories is quite incredible. Mike Bounty Hunter, this way we can, if I say Mike Bounty Hunter, we can at least mention a modern heavyway. His son, Mike Bounty Hunter is one of the top members at the moment. Mike Bounty Hunter died because he fell off a roof

when he was surrounded by police in a motel, I think, in San Diego. You can't invent it. So Barry, before we call this off because it was getting close to turning into suppertime, The reason why you came in as a super sub here is we thought we might be in Edinburgh doing Josh Taylor.

Josh Taylor called it a day last week, an eye injury forcing him out and a spectacularly... When you look at his career and analyse his career, absolutely ridiculous. We're hoping to still get him. We might do him in a couple of weeks. But just a couple of closing thoughts on Josh Taylor.

He's been my favourite British fighter over the last 10 years to me. I'll vouch for that. I mean, his rise, in such a short space of time was literally, and also, you've got to applaud his management, they manage him perfect for his talent. I mean, in boxing Victor Postal

before he boxed, two fights before he boxed Barancheck for the World Title, was exactly what his manager did, McGuigan, when he boxed one, the port, two fights before, he boxed Pedroza for the world title. Postal only lost the crawl for about 16, 17 months earlier. So that fight was hard in the World Title fight.

It was the same from McGregan, because Pedroza wasn't the same fight that he was no, four defenses before. Still really had fights, by the way. And Taylor, with a guy who was only good when you chucked him in the fire. When he was in danger, you've seen the best of him.

When fights were too easy, when you saw, oh, he had the box with more, it was no good. When you chucked him in the fire, where it was more dangerous, he reacted better than anybody ever seen for a long time. And he unified that division.

People say it was a weak time. It wasn't a week time. No way. Pro Gray, Ramirez. Six undefeated fighters on the spin. Five in. World Title fights. He was the pandemic

for the Ramirez fighting, which is in Vegas. I mean, but that Ramirez and his first World Child Defense was behind closed doors at Yulko against the guy from Thailand. Ramirez was fantastic

and he walked right through him but he bullied him out of that fight. Prograde was, dropped him twice. Prograde was as a highest quality war you'd like to see.

That's a great question. It was brilliant. I mean, he's been great and I'm almost glad that he had to retire because I think he'd slow down. Three defeats on a spin. And a fighter of his quality

and a unified champion and we haven't had many, deserves the respect and also the sort of honour to walk out to the sport clean. Is the only British undisputed a man? Yes. It is.

He is. When you say, you have to, you have a, like you did there, that second, you're checking, because you go in, then you go, no, he's the only, I mean, Lennox was old error. This is new era.

He's a British great, that's it. I mean, long before he wanted to retire. I mean, once he, once he unified that, he became a great overnight. And as I might have said there, have a look at Dwight Muhammad Quarry's record, 53 fights, died just last week, 72, a great fighter.

But have a look at Josh Taylor's record. Only about 20-odd fights, 22, 23 fights. 34 years of age. Have a look at his record, analyze it. In about his fifth or six fight, he fights Dave Ryan for the Commonwealth title. That is a piece of matchmaking that's inspired. It's brutal, it's savage,

ends in about the seventh round. It's absolutely brilliant. Barry, you've been brilliant. everyone else has been brilliant. Next week, we're probably going to hear from the GB Boxers. Some of the GB Boxers will grant on the World Championships in Liverpool in September. We'll also hear definitely from Robert McCracken. 16 boxes selected, and this is the start of the run to LA.

I'm Steve Bunce, and this has most definitely been 5-live boxing, and it's been a long one. On BBC Sounds, Sporting Giants, delve deep into the lives and careers of some of the biggest names in sports and hear from those who know them best, including Pet Guadiola. He is looking

always for the perfection. Andy Murray. It was something that he'd worked towards all of his career. And Piaen-en-Ape. When I saw him the first time play, I said, we have really here. Sporting Giants. Listen, listen on BBC Sounds.